Microsoft Releases ASP.NET MVC Under the Apache License

anyone see the flying pigs outside? by alen · 2012-03-28 02:34 · Score: 5, Funny

i just looked and saw one fly past the empire state building

Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by Robert+Zenz · 2012-03-28 02:38 · Score: 5, Funny

I haven't seen any flying pigs, but a guy with red skin, horns and one hoof came to our door the other day, asking if we could lend him some blankets, his home just started to get chilly.
Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by jellomizer · 2012-03-28 02:50 · Score: 1

I think it comes down to the fact that they want to sell more Visual Studio... I have to admit Visual Studios is a Decent IDE. However if you you are doing PHP or Java. You might as well be using Eclipse or Netbeans as well other Decent IDE.

Being that ASP.NET only runs under Microsoft .NET framework or Mono. It gives developers a bad feeling if you are going to do anything beyond your intranet.

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If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by suprem1ty · 2012-03-28 02:57 · Score: 1

The reports are just coming in... and yes, it is indeed a cold day in hell!
Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 02:59 · Score: 0

You are probably right about them wanting to sell more Visual Studio. Although there is a free web developer suite that you can use to develop MVC applications so I don't think people are forced into buying visual studio.
Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by suprem1ty · 2012-03-28 03:00 · Score: 1

Jokes aside though this is awesome. Regardless of Microsoft's motives, an open future for computing is a good future.
Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 03:01 · Score: 0

It was already under a pretty permissive license.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Public_License
The more important part is that they'll consider external contributions now. It's hard to have a community if you're a dictator.
Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by Nadaka · 2012-03-28 03:10 · Score: 4, Insightful

Let me guess, you do all your code in vi?
Or perhaps you write code by shaking a magnet over your hard drive in just the right way?
Visual Studio is a good IDE regardless of your experience level. It is comparable to eclipse. Each has areas where it is a bit better than the other, but few major deficiencies.
Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by SJHillman · 2012-03-28 03:12 · Score: 1

It depends on the application. If I just want to whip up a simple app with a decent interface, it's hard to beat Visual Studio. However, for more complex projects, I'm just as likely to use Notepad++ as VS depending on what I need. VS is a tool like any other - it's the best tool for some jobs, a decent tool for other jobs and the completely wrong tool for many jobs.
Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by Canazza · 2012-03-28 03:13 · Score: 1

If they don't, just fork it.
MVC is already about 5x faster than the old

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Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by Canazza · 2012-03-28 03:14 · Score: 1

wtf, it cut off half my coment. MVC is already faster than the old ASP.NET WebForms/Viewstate model they used to use.

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It pays to be obvious, especially if you have a reputation for being subtle.
Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 03:15 · Score: 0

Dude! Go easy on the .'s! Try using a , instead once in a while.
Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by TheRaven64 · 2012-03-28 03:35 · Score: 1

I do most of my coding in vim, which is a nice text editor once you add the clang autocomplete plugin. I've not used Visual Studio since version 5, and even that version had a better debugger than anything I've seen for C-like languages since (still not close to Smalltalk-80, but you can't have everything).

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I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by shutdown+-p+now · 2012-03-28 03:38 · Score: 1

VS itself is also growing "more free" as time goes by. On one hand, there's web edition of VS Express, which is slowly growing in features that were previously only available in paid editions - in v11 it's (finally) going to get unit testing, for example. And then there's also the free WebMatrix, which basically tries to steal the "no-framework PHP" cake.
Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by poetmatt · 2012-03-28 03:42 · Score: 1

Might want to lay off the drugs a little. Nothing has changed here. You still have the same issues you've always had with apache v2 which is that it's basically the same as the BSD license with the same problems.
Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by terjeber · 2012-03-28 04:06 · Score: 1

and for people with enough brains to not have to try to enlarge their balls by using 1980s technologies to develop software. Like VI(M) for example. A great editor for editing text files, but not a tool for developing software.
Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by dkleinsc · 2012-03-28 04:13 · Score: 1

I don't use vi, I use butterflies!

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Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by siride · 2012-03-28 04:34 · Score: 1

Use VS with ReSharper with a large project and then go back to Vi and tell me that Vi makes you more productive. Hint: it's not just about cool text-editing features. Call me when Vi can do complex refactorings across dozens of projects.
Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by spongman · 2012-03-28 04:38 · Score: 1

I have to admit Visual Studios is a Decent IDE.
Yes, it is...for beginners.
wow, that means i've been a beginner for 30 years now. and using Visual C++/Studio for 20.of those.
I can't wait until I get good enough at this programming malarkey to use a real IDE like vi/make.
Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by snikulin · 2012-03-28 05:09 · Score: 1

BSD?
Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by Jerry+Atrick · 2012-03-28 06:11 · Score: 1

VS may well be a good IDE, it's a fscking awful text editor and at some point in any non-trivial project there's a metric tonne of typing involved. So I always find myself dropping out of it to get the heavy lifting done in JED (other programmers editors are available ;)
Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by luis_a_espinal · 2012-03-28 07:18 · Score: 1

Use VS with ReSharper with a large project and then go back to Vi and tell me that Vi makes you more productive. Hint: it's not just about cool text-editing features. Call me when Vi can do complex refactorings across dozens of projects.
^^^ This. I used to be a Emacs (and later Vim) hard code user, doing all of my coding (for-a-living-coding), first in C++ then in Java. That was the shape of things until 2005-2006'ish when I ran into Eclipse. I've never looked back. Be it the JEE version or the CDT version for C/C++ development (which is what I currently use at work), I wouldn't go back to my Vim ways. Don't get me wrong, I actively use Vim next to Eclipse CDT, but there is text editing/single file coding, and there is project development.
Yeah, managing a project can be done with Vim, a language plug-in and ctags, but then why? That's more a feat of geek-prowess than a pragmatic one. Projects are so large now that it makes no sense to do manage it (or do complex refactoring or things like that) without an integrated enviroment (not unless you have been working with large yet stable source code for so long that you know where things are).
Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by dunkelfalke · 2012-03-28 07:19 · Score: 1

Must be Pink Floyd on tour again.

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"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by luis_a_espinal · 2012-03-28 07:25 · Score: 1

and for people with enough brains to not have to try to enlarge their balls by using 1980s technologies to develop software. Like VI(M) for example. A great editor for editing text files, but not a tool for developing software.
Using modern technology for real, in-the-trenches work does not amount to good street geek-creed among the junior/senior year l33t hax0rs and the "That's 70's Show" crowd.
Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by luis_a_espinal · 2012-03-28 07:30 · Score: 3, Insightful

I have to admit Visual Studios is a Decent IDE.
Yes, it is...for beginners.
Someone seems to have a fond for tooting his own game console l33t hax0r horn. That is one of the most meaningless, most juvenile posts I've seen in a while. What the hell does that mean anyways?
Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by jellomizer · 2012-03-28 07:40 · Score: 1

I found a VI key scheme plugin for Visual Studio it is Sweet. It makes Visual Studios Almost[Esc]6jdwi quite usable.

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If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 07:43 · Score: 1

Oh my, it appears you've attracted the ire of APK. Tell me, are you quaking? Are you really scared? I know I was when it happened to me.
But then, I realized I'm an anonymous coward, and that dumbfuck's ranting couldn't follow me around the site.
You have a high tolerance for nonsense, it appears. Good on ya.
Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 07:53 · Score: 0

What problems are those, exactly? That it doesn't further your own preferred agenda, as handed down by St. Stallman?
MSFT adopting a permissive, standard, open source license is fairly big news. Whether or not Microsoft is interested in forcing other people to contribute their changes back to the community is largely irrelevant.
Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 08:01 · Score: 1

maybe for his next trick he can get Michael Kristopeit to make an appearance and tell him how pathetic his choice in IDE is.
Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 08:33 · Score: 0

Why do you use vim for coding, feeb?
You're completely pathetic.
Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by siride · 2012-03-28 09:45 · Score: 1

ctags just doesn't compare with a modern IDE and a modern metadata-laden language. Vim just simply can't do that stuff because Vim wasn't designed to do it. Vim is a text editor, and a damn good one at that, but it is just a text editor. Right tool for the job and all that. I'm sure we'll both get downvotes from the old-timers...
Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by cyber-vandal · 2012-03-28 11:00 · Score: 1

It's still there and still in heavy use. It's not going anywhere in the foreseeable future, given that Sharepoint, Dynamics CRM and tons of third party apps are written in it. MVC is great, I wish Webforms would go away but it's not going to any time soon.
Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 13:44 · Score: 0

Visual Studio 5 (aka Visual Studio '97)?. Things have changed a bit since then you know. Sort of like complaining about Ford due to experiences with the Granada.
Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by Kagetsuki · 2012-03-28 15:33 · Score: 1

No, it's been cold there for a long time.
HAHAHAHA I completely deserve to be modded down for this one.
Re:anyone see the flying pigs outside? by TheRaven64 · 2012-03-28 21:29 · Score: 1

Read my post again. I'm not complaining about it - I said it had a great debugger. Apparently it's got better since then, but I've still not seen anything as good as the old version so any improvements are irrelevant in the comparison. Of course, if it's got a lot worse, then your post would make sense...

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I am TheRaven on Soylent News

Now if they'd do the same thing with MFC and AT... by Short+Circuit · 2012-03-28 02:40 · Score: 2

...my job would be easier. I have the source code. I hit the bugs. Sometimes it's even obvious how to fix them...

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tasks(723) drafts(105) languages(484) examples(29106)

In my opinion by Crummosh · 2012-03-28 02:43 · Score: 1, Insightful

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piVnArp9ZE0

Wow by PickyH3D · 2012-03-28 02:43 · Score: 1

I am pretty impressed. I honestly wonder how this will effect the web development industry moving forward.

Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 02:49 · Score: 0

#7
Re:Wow by halivar · 2012-03-28 03:01 · Score: 1

If you can replace effect with implement, accomplish, you're kosher (effect is also a verb). For instance, the GP may be saying, "I honestly wonder how this will actualize the web development industry moving forward." This statement is fully buzzword-worthy for use in water-cooler dialog, and therefore not out of the realm of possibilities of intended meanings.
Grammar Nazi: 0
Useless Pedant: 1
Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 03:38 · Score: 0

It won't because nobody in their right mind would host a web site using Microsofts platform.
Re:Wow by Kalriath · 2012-03-28 12:12 · Score: 1

There are lots of people already doing it, including some mega-corporates such as Netflix.

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Two Groups by slapout · 2012-03-28 02:44 · Score: 1

It seems to me there are two groups inside Microsoft -- Developers and Managers. Developers want to do things like this. Managers want to prevent things like this. Looks like the devs won this one.

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Re:Two Groups by alen · 2012-03-28 02:50 · Score: 1

no, it was ray ozzie or some other guy. can't remember the name. MS hired him and he gave them a business reason to use and support open source standards compliant software.
Re:Two Groups by craigtp · 2012-03-28 03:35 · Score: 4, Interesting

It's not just developers and managers as groups. Remember, that these days Microsoft is a huge organisation and is full of many different divisions. There's Windows, Office, XBox, Windows Phone etc. amongst many others.
The guys that are responsible for this move are the "Web Dev Div", who are a sub-group within the "Developer Division".
It contains many people, including guys like Scott Guthrie, Scott Hanselman, Phil Haack (who recently left to join GitHub) etc., who have always done things that don't seem very Microsoft-like, like releasing ASP.NET MVC as an open-source product - albeit one that didn't accept outside contributions - back in 2009 along with such moves as bundling things like the open source jQuery library with Visual Studio and openly committing improvements back to the core project without trying the usual embrace, extend, extinguish tactics.
Within certain parts of Microsoft, they can, have done, and are continuing to do some very interesting, worthwhile and generally community-friendly (and not-so-evil) work.
Re:Two Groups by slapout · 2012-03-28 03:43 · Score: 1

I didn't mean it as formal divisions, I meant there are two types of people working there -- those with a developer mindset (mostly like the devs you mentioned) and ....others. It seems to be mostly the developers (in whatever division they work in) that want to do the cool things.

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Coder's Stone: The programming language quick ref for iPad
Re:Two Groups by spongman · 2012-03-28 04:55 · Score: 1

two groups inside Microsoft -- Developers and Managers
you forgot the accountants and the lawyers. those are the key players in this regard.
Re:Two Groups by craigtp · 2012-03-28 06:19 · Score: 1

Indeed. I think we're broadly in agreement here. The great thing about certain sections of Microsoft is that a lot of the managers in those areas are precisely those developers with the "developer mindset".
For example, Scott Guthrie - who I previously mentioned - was the lead developer on ASP.NET itself (the old "webforms" not the newer MVC incarnation) but is now a vice-president of the Developer Division.
Having people in a managerial capacity with some level of authority and decision making ability who are also developers with the developer mindset is very often a very good thing.

ASP.NET MVC is OK, but C# is awesome by sideslash · 2012-03-28 02:52 · Score: 4, Insightful

I guess Microsoft's MVC stuff is OK, and Razor in particular is comparable to the best of other frameworks out there, but their C# language is the primary glue that enables the awesomeness. C# is the top of the line within the Java-ripoff genre of languages, and I would like to see Microsoft take steps to help it be used more widely. I realize OSS purists will probably never be on board, and I understand why; but it's definitely not based on the quality of the technology.

Re:ASP.NET MVC is OK, but C# is awesome by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 03:09 · Score: 0

I have just finished writing a web app using MVC3 after years of using python and php frameworks for web content and I would have to completely agree. C# is where it is at. MVC3 and Razor are similar to what is out there but C# is why I would choose to use MVC over other frameworks like django.
Re:ASP.NET MVC is OK, but C# is awesome by jnowlan · 2012-03-28 03:52 · Score: 1

Why c# over python? I usually hear positives about c# but python just lets me 'get things done'.
I haven't used c# but on occasion have to wrangle java, and it is painful after the freedom of python. No boilerplate. Based on c#'s lineage I find it hard to imagine that there isn't a fair amount of boilerplate involved with using it.
Re:ASP.NET MVC is OK, but C# is awesome by Tyler+Eaves · 2012-03-28 04:03 · Score: 1

Absolutely. I'd love to see Microsoft either provide a high-quality cross-platform .NET implementation, or at least release the core CLR stuff. C# has a lot of really interesting stuff going on in it.

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TODO: Something witty here...
Re:ASP.NET MVC is OK, but C# is awesome by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 04:06 · Score: 0

"OSS purity" has nothing to do with the communities reluctance to adopt the technology. Microsoft regularly uses patents against the open source community and .NET is covered by an immense number of patents. It would absolutely idiotic for, say, a major Linux distribution to adopt C# as an important component until the patent issue is dealt with. So stop blaming the open source community for what is in essence, Microsoft's continued false claims about being "open". If Microsoft wants to participate openly, then they need to drop their patent claims against the open source community just as everyone else has done.
Re:ASP.NET MVC is OK, but C# is awesome by spiralx · 2012-03-28 04:30 · Score: 1

Python is my favourite language, and C# is my favourite high-level language. Compared to Java there's much less boilerplate required, and there are plenty of features which make it IMO pleasurable to program in. While it occupies a comparable niche to Java, the difference is light and day in terms of developer joy.
Re:ASP.NET MVC is OK, but C# is awesome by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 04:57 · Score: 0

You should try groovy. You can remove a lot of the boilerplate code of java if you feel like it, or keep it for specific tasks you want it for. http://groovy.codehaus.org/
Re:ASP.NET MVC is OK, but C# is awesome by spiffmastercow · 2012-03-28 05:49 · Score: 1

C# 2.0 was basically a clone of Java and didn't really have anything that made it particularly special. With 4.0, it has almost everything that made Python great, without any of the huge drawbacks of Python. It's fast (in relative terms.. slower than C and C++, faster than most anything else), it has an extensive standard library, closures, lambda functions, Linq (similar in function to Python's list building and iterator expressions, but more robust), good multi-threading support, and some top notch metaprogramming support through generics and expression trees.
Re:ASP.NET MVC is OK, but C# is awesome by codepunk · 2012-03-28 05:59 · Score: 1

Or better yet not have to deal with any of that shit and use a language that does not require it.

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Re:ASP.NET MVC is OK, but C# is awesome by dreemernj · 2012-03-28 07:11 · Score: 1

I've used C# a bit for work and it's the language I pick whenever I can for personal projects. Compared to Python, there is definitely a fair amount of boilerplate. But, it never bothered me the way boilerplate bothered me in Java back when I used it. That said, I haven't used Java outside of building demo Android apps in about 7 years so it could be just as good as C# or better and I wouldn't know.

When I am coding C#, if I notice a build up of boilerplate, it is usually a sign that I am not taking advantage of something that is available to me. I could probably write code that looks almost identical to the code I wrote in Java years ago, but that'd be a fault of mine, not of C#'s. Also, I haven't used an IDE that handles generating boilerplate as nicely as Visual Studio does for the occasions when it is still necessary. I'd probably be using Python for my fun projects if I found an IDE for it that I enjoyed using as much as I enjoy using Visual Studio with C#.

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Re:ASP.NET MVC is OK, but C# is awesome by spiralx · 2012-03-28 07:58 · Score: 1

Partial classes - bloody genius idea. IDE-generated boilerplate in one file you don't touch, your code in another.
Re:ASP.NET MVC is OK, but C# is awesome by flimflammer · 2012-03-28 08:52 · Score: 1

I don't get this argument every time it's brought up. Microsoft has a notice on their website promising that they will not peruse patent cases against people for using custom C#/.NET implementations. Not only that, Microsoft, with the release of .NET, released a cross platform open source implementation of CLR, free for use and study. Sure, people will often counter this by saying that Microsoft can't be trusted over some silly "promise". To which I say, really? I could understand that if it was some unofficial channel, some verbal agreement that they would not peruse legal action, but that's not the case. Microsoft is publicly and openly stating that they won't pursue these types of cases.
Until recently, Ubuntu has included Mono in its base implementation. Its removal is more a result of trimming the fat, not fears of patent infringement suits from Microsoft. You'd think if Microsoft was going to go apeshit over the use of .NET on other platforms (notably Linux), they would have attacked the most popular distribution that was using it all this time.
Re:ASP.NET MVC is OK, but C# is awesome by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 09:09 · Score: 0

Honest question: Which of those C# features does Visual Basic not have?
Re:ASP.NET MVC is OK, but C# is awesome by dreemernj · 2012-03-28 10:19 · Score: 1

I think the moment I realized I needed to learn more in order to do less was when a friend saw me code an enumerator class to do something that involved fetching paginated results from a local database and he replaced 90% of my code with the word yield.

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1 (short ton / firkin) = 89.1432354 slugs / keg
Re:ASP.NET MVC is OK, but C# is awesome by spiralx · 2012-03-28 10:30 · Score: 1

Yes, after coming from Java there were quite a few "ooh, shiny" moments that made me happy. I keep meaning to write something just to play with LINQ.
Re:ASP.NET MVC is OK, but C# is awesome by spiffmastercow · 2012-03-28 10:52 · Score: 1

Honest question: Which of those C# features does Visual Basic not have?
The latest VB should have most, if not all the features as the latest C#. That said, the syntax of VB, along with the lack of short circuit conditionals, makes my eye twitch.
Re:ASP.NET MVC is OK, but C# is awesome by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 11:31 · Score: 0

Well, since Visual Basic has short circuit conditionals, the difference between C# and VB for you is that VB syntax doesn't look like C?
Re:ASP.NET MVC is OK, but C# is awesome by Kalriath · 2012-03-28 12:16 · Score: 1

It never ceases to annoy me that VB has a way of re-attempting a code path that caused an exception after resolving the exception cause but C# does not short of goto. In a catch block in VB, you can simply call "ReTry" and it will re-attempt from the line that failed.
So there's even areas where C# is beaten by VB.

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Re:ASP.NET MVC is OK, but C# is awesome by spiffmastercow · 2012-03-28 14:12 · Score: 0

First, you're wrong. second, you're arguing against a point that nobody was making. Your insecurities are very telling.
Re:ASP.NET MVC is OK, but C# is awesome by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 14:34 · Score: 0

First, the article you reference shows how Visual Basic accomplishes short circuit evaluation when you use the appropriate operators.
Second, there isn't any argument in this part of the thread. It's more of a remark that virtually everything mentioned about C# also applies to Visual Basic. Why do you seem to have a problem with that?
Re:ASP.NET MVC is OK, but C# is awesome by drfreak · 2012-03-28 14:57 · Score: 1

There always seem to be times where VB has features over C# or vice-versa. Many of those features are library-based, so you can just include the VB library in a C# app and gain access to functions such as Str() and the My. namespace. Fact is, most of those things are still accessible to either language, there are just helper classes and methods which make things easier for their respective lagnuages.
I wasn't aware of the language feature you described though, which certainly can't be just "referenced" from another language. In fact, I didn't even know VB had the option of continuing code after an exception is handled. I've slightly worked around it in C# by having code in the Finally clause which calls another method, but that does seem hack-ish. However, the only situations I've had where a try block catches an exception tend to be more transactional situations where the entire function or loop should fail gracefully anyways. In most cases, I simply call a cleanup/rollback method in the catch and then a continue to go to the next iteration of a loop.
Some new features, although Microsoft has been kind enough to implement them all in both languages, leave something to be desired. When writing event handlers in VB, they seem easy at first, but can easily get cluttered. In C# they conversely seem hard at first (because the method signature does not include the event hook, you need to do that yourself). I guess it really gets down to preference at that point. It might make my code easier to read by a third-part with all the syntactical obviousness VB offers, but how easy is it in C# to create an on-the-fly delegate now with lambda expressions?
All in all though, I totally appreciate the fact that all new features seem to be first-class citizens of all .NET languages. The new Async features in 2011 for example are awesome and available to both. The sad thing is C/C++ programmers still need to rely on their own libs for async. Microsoft is providing those too though. C/C++ programmers, on the other hand, will never be in the same class as C#/VB so I can understand that they have their own paradigms/libs to solve certain problems...
Re:ASP.NET MVC is OK, but C# is awesome by spiffmastercow · 2012-03-28 16:21 · Score: 1

I honestly don't give a fuck about VB, one way or the other. The fact that it doesn't default to short circuiting seems dumb to me, but whatever. What I'm seeing is you trying to defend the honor of VB when nobody has called it into question. My mistake was feeding the troll
Re:ASP.NET MVC is OK, but C# is awesome by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 22:23 · Score: 0

Your mistake is being an asshole. But in all fairness, you probably can't help it.
Re:ASP.NET MVC is OK, but C# is awesome by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-29 08:49 · Score: 0

Lack of short circut conditionals ???
AndAlso...

Re:Now if they'd do the same thing with MFC and AT by jellomizer · 2012-03-28 02:53 · Score: 1

Of course... The time that it takes you to find the bug in a program you didn't write (and the specifications may not be open for you to quickly find it) then you fix the bug, if your fixed isn't approved to go back to the Core code, then you will need to check each time to see if the bug has been fixed and reapply the patch and test it every time.
Sometimes it is much easier to code a work around, report the bug and continue on.

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If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.

Why Android? by SebaSOFT · 2012-03-28 02:55 · Score: 1

Is this a Microsoft vs Competition thing? There are a lot of "propietarier" code out there that could deflect this against.

Re:Why Android? by gbjbaanb · 2012-03-28 10:15 · Score: 2

yes, this is a "the entire internet runs on Linux", so yes, this is an arena where they compete and come off worse. No wonder they are desperately trying to extend their monopoly onto the web server marketplace just like the desktop.

Time for a change by Taantric · 2012-03-28 02:58 · Score: 1

I think this just proves that MS is no longer worthy and it's high time we honour Steve Jobs with the "Borg" /. thumbnail Apple seems to have taken over the Evil Empire franchise with great gusto.

Re:Time for a change by Goaway · 2012-03-28 03:38 · Score: 1

You are aware that Apple is running and sponsoring some of the most popular open-source projects on the web, right? Also, that Steve Jobs is dead?
Re:Time for a change by SuricouRaven · 2012-03-28 03:41 · Score: 1

I'm not so sure. They picked up a lot of evil-points from Secure Boot, remember
Re:Time for a change by Bengie · 2012-03-28 04:24 · Score: 1, Insightful

And Microsoft dumps billions into collaborative research. Many modern system designs from CPU to memory to IO to Networking were spear-headed by MS research. I can enjoy the stereotyping of MS as a soulless company that ships insecure products while adding nothing of value.
Some times we like to stereotype for fun. This is why Taantric said '[...]honour Steve Jobs with the "Borg" /. thumbnail'
Anyway, you can't deny that Apple got to 100bil without price gouging(aka ripping off) its customers. They may have a decent product, but they still over charge, which is also "evil". We just choose to focus on the evil MS does while also focusing on the good Apple does.
Biases, gotta love them. They make us "human".
Re:Time for a change by onefriedrice · 2012-03-28 05:02 · Score: 1

They may have a decent product, but they still over charge, which is also "evil".
On no, a big bad evil corporation is making money. I can't call myself a friend to Apple or Microsoft, but this statement is just retarded. Companies charge what people are willing to pay. A lot of people (apparently) disagree with your valuation of Apple products, and nobody was tricked into buying an iPod or iPhone. There were so many sold that there is no excuse for somebody to not know what they were getting when they threw down their money, and the cost was obviously worth it to them.

--
This author takes full ownership and responsibility for the unpopular opinions outlined above.
Re: Time for a change by neonsignal · 2012-03-28 10:38 · Score: 1

nobody was tricked into buying an iPod or iPhone
But on the other hand, the iPad...
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-03-28/apple-offers-ipad-refunds/3917440
Re:Time for a change by Taantric · 2012-03-28 10:47 · Score: 1

And yet his legacy for unmitigated greed, combined with large-scale patent trolling, lives on. I think the man deserves a Borg make-over even if it is posthumously

Visual Studio is decent, nothing more by bbbaldie · 2012-03-28 02:58 · Score: 2

I've seen too many "developers" created with VS wizards, who didn't even know what language they were programming in (VB or C#? I don't know!). The apps they build technically work, but are slow, ungainly, and if something breaks, who knows how to fix it? That was SOP at the family-owned Fortune 500 I previously worked at. The open source programmers were forced out, now their whole development staff are dragging and dropping their way to app mediocrity. However, i can see real developers benefiting from this, especially if they can get their asp.net apps to run without IIS, the Windows GUI, and the rest of the usual MS overhead. On Linux and Apache, C# just might scream.

Re:Visual Studio is decent, nothing more by terjeber · 2012-03-28 03:26 · Score: 5, Insightful

I have seen the same (and worse) with people developing on JBoss and Java. What's your point? That some developers are bad? Honestly, working day-to-day in VS2010, NetBeans and Eclipse, VS is by a good margin the better IDE. C# is what Java could have become had its development not been handed over to Yet Another Committee With a Decision Making Disorder (TM). In many ways, C# is moving closer to good stuff like Ruby and Rails (and Sinatra). Look at what the Play! Framework guys did with version 2.0. Not implement it in C# obviously, but look at their rendering engine. Highly Razor inspired.
Prior to v 6, IIS was junk. At 6 it was OK. IIS v7 is actually very good.
On the other hand, if someone ever asks me again to maintain a Web Forms (often known as ASP.NET) project, I will decline the kind invitation. If they insist I will leave the company. Web Forms is (IMnsHO) an abomination. As is JSP. Same with the horror that is JBoss Seam.
Re:Visual Studio is decent, nothing more by bbbaldie · 2012-03-28 03:44 · Score: 0

"Prior to v 6, IIS was junk. At 6 it was OK. IIS v7 is actually very good." Ever have to chase down an issue running PHP with IIS? It used to be a snap with 5. 6 made it more difficult. 7 made it impossible, if you were able to get the non-MS platform to work with it at all. I finally got smart and moved my stuff over to WAMP at first, then LAMP. I had to build the first AD-integrated Linux server in a company employing about 6,000 individuals in order to pull that off. It was still simpler than trying to get PHP to play nice with IIS. Agree with you about Java and JBoss. But I would place VS right in the middle of that pack, not ahead of it. As another commenter mentioned, I'd rather use Notepad ++ to troubleshoot C# code over VS. It takes too long to dig through its crap to find the file I need to tweak. Eclipse is configurable enough to let me get straight to work. However, VS's hand-holding interface is very appealing to folks going from PC cleanup duty to the programming team. ;-)
Re:Visual Studio is decent, nothing more by terjeber · 2012-03-28 04:04 · Score: 5, Insightful
Ever have to chase down an issue running PHP with IIS?
No, I have not, but I am not inclined to run PHP on IIS either. To be honest, I am about as likely to use PHP on any platform as I am to use Visual Basic 6 to do real work. PHP is Yet Another Abomination That Should Be Banned :-)
I have friends who swear by Notepad++, for some reason I have never grown to like it. I think it is the simplicity of code + F5 + debug. VS2010 has a very, very capable debugger. I have not seen its like in any environment, but I have heard people say there are better debuggers for Smalltalk. I have so far not had to opportunity to work with Smalltalk.
My list of preferred web application development environments in order of preference:
1. Ruby with Sinatra (or Rails)
2. Play! Framework using Scala
3. ASP.NET MVC 4 and C# with the async CTP
4. Play Framework and Java
Things I have worked with that comes in the Abomination category - in no particular order.
- ASP.NET Web Forms - programming language irrelevant
- Anything with JBoss in it
- Almost anything with J2EE in it
- PHP or anything with BASIC in it (just felt like lumping them together, no special reason)
- Most PERL stuff, but not all of it. PERL can be good and it can be bad. Depends on the task. Most PERL stuff can be done better in Ruby though.
Re:Visual Studio is decent, nothing more by Literaphile · 2012-03-28 05:35 · Score: 3, Interesting

Let me get this straight - you don't like PHP but you code with Ruby? You and I definitely disagree on the definition of "abomination".
Re:Visual Studio is decent, nothing more by msobkow · 2012-03-28 06:09 · Score: 2

I'd have to disagree on your point about JEE. The problem with JEE is only that, like C++, it's powerful and flexible enough to be easily abused. Which isn't surprising, since it's an integration of core concepts and technologies from such a wide variety of transaction processing tools and environments first, and a web service provider second.
i.e. JEE was designed to replace software stacks like Encina and Tuxedo, including the integration of various messaging protocols. Although it supports web development, that was NOT the focus of the effort when it was created -- integrating the existing enterprise systems with one software stack was.
And when you're tying together that many pieces of technology in a manner flexible enough to be useful, that means you're keeping things flexible enough for incompetent or uneducated programmers to seriously screw things up.
But that doesn't make the tool itself bad -- it just helps highlight who qualifies as "competent" and who qualifies as "firing material."

--
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
Re:Visual Studio is decent, nothing more by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 06:26 · Score: 0

You clearly have been working with VS copies where Vissual Assist X wasn't installed, that makes finding and opening files far faster. Also VS2010 did a lot of good for the speed of the IDE overall, it feels far faster then VS2005 and VS2008 on the same machine.
Re:Visual Studio is decent, nothing more by drpimp · 2012-03-28 06:35 · Score: 1

You can't compare apples to oranges. PHP is not a web framework, it's a language that just so happens to may have a bunch of "web" features.
Most of what you listed are web frameworks.
If you compared raw C# to PHP code, you *might* have a good debatable argument, but if you want to compare apples to apples you need to compare the following.

ASP.NET MVC *vs* Symfony2
ASP.NET MVC *vs* CakePHP
ASP.NET MVC *vs* [INSERT PHP FRAMEWORK]

If you actually questioned writing a CGI app in C# vs PHP then you *might* has a closer comparison.
The libraries (namespaces / functions) within the language have similar abilities to accomplish the same tasks, but who really wants to do this in this way???

With that said, I choose my frameworks on a case by case basis. Bashing PHP just because n00b coders simply choose this as an easy way to bang out stuff is too much of an umbrella statement. Bad coders will write bad code in ANY language period.

--
-- Brought to you by Carl's JR
Re:Visual Studio is decent, nothing more by luis_a_espinal · 2012-03-28 07:07 · Score: 1
Ever have to chase down an issue running PHP with IIS?
No, I have not, but I am not inclined to run PHP on IIS either. To be honest, I am about as likely to use PHP on any platform as I am to use Visual Basic 6 to do real work. PHP is Yet Another Abomination That Should Be Banned :-)
I have friends who swear by Notepad++, for some reason I have never grown to like it. I think it is the simplicity of code + F5 + debug. VS2010 has a very, very capable debugger. I have not seen its like in any environment, but I have heard people say there are better debuggers for Smalltalk. I have so far not had to opportunity to work with Smalltalk.
My list of preferred web application development environments in order of preference:
1. Ruby with Sinatra (or Rails)
2. Play! Framework using Scala
3. ASP.NET MVC 4 and C# with the async CTP
4. Play Framework and Java
Things I have worked with that comes in the Abomination category - in no particular order.
- ASP.NET Web Forms - programming language irrelevant
- Anything with JBoss in it
- Almost anything with J2EE in it
- PHP or anything with BASIC in it (just felt like lumping them together, no special reason)
- Most PERL stuff, but not all of it. PERL can be good and it can be bad. Depends on the task. Most PERL stuff can be done better in Ruby though.
If you do web/enterprise development in Java (or deploying a war/ear), you are using JEE. Now if you are referring to J2EE as EJB 2.x (which are not the same terms), then you have a good point (EJB pre 3.x is an abomination.)
JSP is not bad either (it's actually decent) IIF you keep logic outside of the view (but that is true of any MVC framework.) Similarly if that law is broken, yeah, JSP is crap (just like anything else.) The problems that have plagues JSP usage is the same that plagues any other framework where people screws around with logic in the view.
I've never used JBoss Seams, so I can't comment on it. But Seams has JSF as one of its legs, and I've never seen a legitimate technical/business reason for that shit... err, JSF, so...
Re:Visual Studio is decent, nothing more by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 07:18 · Score: 0

Ah the wonderful dance of internet opinion. FWIW, It's strange how people make these decisions. I can distinctly remember liking (no evangelizing for) Perl back in the day. Now my old Perl scripts make me feel dirty inside. I however, can say, that I have thought Personal Home Page was an abomination since the very beginning. It's a interpreted language specifically designed for web development yet the "designer" decided to build in Regular Expression support only to mysteriously encase it in quoted strings with obtuse named functions like preg_match(). WTF? PHP is a mediocre and poorly designed language which did some things right and established a very successful base. Someday it may become something useful, things like Laravel, CakePHP and CodeIgniter are steps in the right direction. But as Perl proved, you can build the most elegant thing in the world on a sloppy mess and you end up with a sloppy mess. Just look at Slashcode some time.
My list would be:

Ruby on Rails for big webapps.
Ruby and Sinatra for web APIs.
Node for micro web services.
Laraval for PHP.
My abomination category would contain:

ASP.NET Web Forms
WordPress, OsCommerce, Magento and Joomla PHP frameworks.
Anything with JBoss or J2EE, actually anything in native Java.
WebGUI platform, and mod_perl2.
CGI.pm with html generation, lol
Re:Visual Studio is decent, nothing more by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 09:33 · Score: 0

ruby is pure, everything is an object, the class of the object is also a class so are fields and methods.
php is so dirty that a dirt road is clean by comparison...
Re:Visual Studio is decent, nothing more by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 10:33 · Score: 0

His point was that he hates anything and everything Microsoft makes. Thus, he feels the need to write snarky posts on the internet about how everything Microsoft makes sucks, and about how the open source community will do a much better job once they free some technology from the inferior Microsoft platform.
I'm sure after he wrote his post he stroked his neckbeard with delight.
Re:Visual Studio is decent, nothing more by Kalriath · 2012-03-28 12:06 · Score: 1

Ever have to chase down an issue running PHP with IIS?
Yes, with v7. It was really easy - the hardest part was deciphering PHP's shitty error messages.

--
For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
Re:Visual Studio is decent, nothing more by Kohenkatz · 2012-03-28 13:47 · Score: 1

Ever have to chase down an issue running PHP with IIS? It used to be a snap with 5. 6 made it more difficult. 7 made it impossible, if you were able to get the non-MS platform to work with it at all.
Funny you should say that. It has never been easier to get PHP running than it is on IIS 7. Two clicks in the Web Platform Installer and you have a working PHP installation. Three more clicks in IIS Manager and you have a working, and pretty well-configured, PHP installation. Need to run two versions of PHP for different sites on the same server? Guess what? It's just a few more clicks. Enable and Disable PHP extensions? One click. Since we updated to IIS 7.5 (Server 2008 R2) from IIS 5 (Server 2K), we have moved several sites running on old LAMP servers over to three Windows Servers and have had no trouble at all with any of the PHP installations or any of the site migrations. It is true that it is now harder to install PHP by hand in IIS - but it makes no sense to do it that way anymore.
Re:Visual Studio is decent, nothing more by terjeber · 2012-03-28 19:44 · Score: 1

Are you implying that PHP is less of an abomination than Ruby. If so I'd recommend you go back to Computers 101.

but this makes sense. by rickb928 · 2012-03-28 03:00 · Score: 2

IANAP, but if:
Windows 8 is focusing on HTML5 and JavaScript.
Microsoft still wants to sell .NET tools...

then open sourcing. NET makes sense. give away the handle, sell the blades.

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deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.

Re:but this makes sense. by Richard_at_work · 2012-03-28 03:10 · Score: 1

Windows 8 isnt focusing on HTML5 and JS - its just adding them as a development pathway. Don't believe all of the outrage stories, they invariably aren't true...
Re:but this makes sense. by shutdown+-p+now · 2012-03-28 03:34 · Score: 2

Windows 8 is focusing on HTML5 and JavaScript.
Win8 Metro apps can be written in any of: C++, C#/VB, JS (out of the box, third parties can add support to their own languages as well). Of those, I personally find C# to be the most convenient, simply because most Metro APIs are async only (to force developers to never block the UI thread with some expensive call), and C# has nice syntactic sugar for this in form of async/await, whereas in both C++ and JS you have to manually chain callbacks with x.then(y).
Re:but this makes sense. by Pionar · 2012-03-28 09:00 · Score: 1

Except, they're not open sourcing .NET, just MVC4. .NET will never be open sourced, because it ties too much into the OS.
Re:but this makes sense. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 12:38 · Score: 0

O rly?

Is Microsoft still evil? by gman003 · 2012-03-28 03:01 · Score: 5, Interesting

All evidence points to Microsoft no longer being "evil". At worst, maybe jerks, but not evil:

Internet Explorer is following standards about as well as everyone else
Windows is no longer a horrible, bug-ridden mess - the main complaints are "it's too similar to the last one, no need to upgrade" and "they're changing the interface too much AND I DON'T LIKE IT"
The 360 is fairly open, by console standards, even with "official" homebrew via XNA (you need to buy a license, but it's not a $100,000 developer's license)
They've been submitting a lot of code to open-source, using *actual* open-source licenses
Their stuff works well withttp://developers.slashdot.org/story/12/03/28/142228/microsoft-releases-aspnet-mvc-under-the-apache-license#h virtualization under Linux, and their VM will run Linux (face it, the Old MS would have made it near-impossible to run Windows within Linux)

Now, they're still far from my favorite company, but I for one am willing to reclassify them from "lawful evil" to "lawful neutral".

Re:Is Microsoft still evil? by game+kid · 2012-03-28 03:11 · Score: 1

Those sound about right. I just wish the respective managements of (e.g.) Google, Slashdot, and Canonical didn't almost-proportionally regress as Microsoft slowly morphed from Hellspawn to New And Somewhat Improved Hellspawn.
I mean, between Google+, Slashdot TV, Unity (I tried that, and it made me move to Arch Linux with KDE, with a layover in Kubuntu 11.10)...

--
You can hold down the "B" button for continuous firing.
Re:Is Microsoft still evil? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 03:13 · Score: 0

Linux is no threat to Microsoft.
LoseThos is a secondary OS, but endorsed by God.
God says...
ruggedness scourged GRATIAS losing sanctuary collect imagining
deeds example prepares Fish observing uncorruptness boastfulness
replies dispel WARRANTY gave testimonies mentally mourn
conceive flee BEFORE toys included fearfully subjoinedst
cd produced beneath Homer's too straitly abler pastime
abandoned gratuitously When passible parity formest smaller
Soft agito aim grasp heareth magnified standing explaining
crosses rude o'er underwent hare starting editions tenor
leasing harm enlightened prepare nurse searches notorious
wanderings distributest shook faced similitude dying farther
songs spirits falling numbering unlike bait dispensest
rude funeral tongue indued cover meditated glided whereon
foster Predicaments puffed incensed findeth counselled
assaying poison darkened apprehended bitterness He humanity
cellars ceased
Re:Is Microsoft still evil? by jbernardo · 2012-03-28 03:30 · Score: 1, Interesting

Yes they are. As long as they are using NDAs and patent trolling to extort money from companies using open source, they are evil. They might seem less evil in this particular point - but they are still the same microsoft we all learned to hate. At least those of us that did do business with them, or know some company who did, like sendo...
Re:Is Microsoft still evil? by gman003 · 2012-03-28 03:40 · Score: 1

NDAs are everywhere in business. Everywhere. You can't call a company "evil" for using them without diluting the word "evil" itself.
And, while MS does have a huge patent portfolio which is a significant potential threat, I don't actually know of them *using* it the way you describe. They sue other companies, sure, but I have not yet heard of them suing an open-source project for patent violations.
Re:Is Microsoft still evil? by ilsaloving · 2012-03-28 03:42 · Score: 1

The problem is, did they do these things because they're trying to fix their reputation, or because they realize they're screwed if they don't?
I'm inclined to believe the latter, because based on other behaviour (such as the mutilation of the standards process with their open office file format) indicates that they are still doing whatever they can to screw everyone around them and maintain control.
For example with IE, they *had* to make a standards compliant browser because their gamble to control the internet with IE6 failed so badly that now the only people who continue to use IE are those that are clueless about the alternatives, or had the misfortune of investing in the IE infrastructure.
Also, partially open sourcing or standardizing their tools doesn't mean anything if there isn't enough to do anything with. That's why no one takes Mono seriously. Without access to WinForms and other libraries, C# is practically useless for cross-platform development. The best people have done is create C# bindings for other existing OSS libraries like gnome, which don't translate back to windows very easily.
Let's face it, there's still too much history of not just evil, but down right nasty behaviour. If they continue down the road for a few more years without any major issues, *THEN* I will acknowledge Microsoft has improved. But they still have way too much to make up for.
Re:Is Microsoft still evil? by CubicleZombie · 2012-03-28 03:56 · Score: 1

All evidence points to Microsoft no longer being "evil". At worst, maybe jerks, but not evil:
My bought-and-paid-for copy of Windows 7 Starter came with the Microsoft logo stuck as the wall paper. No way to change it. And if you find and replace the .BMP, it will brick the computer. I'm not making this up.

That's evil.

But I still like C# and ASP MVC.

--
:wq
Re:Is Microsoft still evil? by Billly+Gates · 2012-03-28 04:11 · Score: 1, Insightful

IE 6 was a great and standards compliant browser ... in 2001.
IE 6 meant you could use CSS, integrate it with AD/IIS for things like employee logins, had fast graphics, etc. It is just very old and silly to use today. If you go under hall of fame on slashdot and read the most popular stories of all time someone asked "What is keeping you on Windows?"
IE 6 was one of the most common answers and how it was such a great browser. Netscape was terrible and so was Mozilla (before Firefox) if you ever think IE 6 was buggy. People tend to remember the good things about the past like their high paying jobs, good economy, IT being respected vs a cost center, and the birth of the .com.
What they do not remember was all the websites looking like shit similiar to craigslist. Go google Yahoo from 2000 screenshots? Looks like mindspring of old.
IE 6 bugs were introduced because it was rushed and many of the developers did not like CSS on the IE team as they viewed it as a threat to MSN. Back in those days the internet was a big deal like today as people prefered AOL and online communities. It was not the same as today. CSS was partially implemented and it did have less bugs than Netscape. MS needed it finished to kill Netscape and have a browser ready for XP.
MS did not have the intention to be evil with it. They wanted client win32 apps instead and feared the web and AOL. Anyway those days are long gone.
This and the parents post shows that any corporation is good and evil. Anyone including even Google can be evil when they gain too much power and will be good when they have to compete. Apple was such a good company that fought for the ideals of opensource and for the good of the user at one time. Today they are assholes once they got handed the keys. MS was less evil at the time than Apple is today. Google is making Chrome proprietary with dart, SPDY, and javascript extensions. Remember that post a year ago here on that band playing with advanced video effects on HTML 5? Oops it only ran on Chrome. Hmm why is that?
I wish C# was more cross platform. But it is so tied into Windows because thats what it was developed for. If the DOJ split MS up in an alternative universe I would bet VS would be available for Mac and Linux as well.

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http://saveie6.com/
Re:Is Microsoft still evil? by gman003 · 2012-03-28 04:12 · Score: 1

First, it's not like Microsoft tries to hide that Starter is horribly crippled. You bought the Shit version, and now you're complaining that it's shit?
Second, how did you even buy it? From what I can tell, it's only sold to OEMs, primarily in "emerging markets" (I've never even *seen* a Starter copy in the US - every computer I've checked out had Home Premium or Ultimate). So you bought from a cheap-ass vendor, and then complained that it came with the crappy version of Windows, instead of seeing it as a discount on the Microsoft tax.
Selling a crappy product as the cheap version and charging to upgrade is a dick move, but not illegal, and not really even evil. I can actually see it being beneficial in some circumstances (buying a computer with full intent of slapping Linux on it, primarily).
Re:Is Microsoft still evil? by jbernardo · 2012-03-28 04:13 · Score: 2

No. I call Microsoft evil for the way the use NDAs when they are extorting money from companies using open source (I never wrote open source projects) with crap patents; it is evil in that it allows them to hide the merits (or more accurately, the lack of) and to avoid that the open source projects involved use alternatives that don't violate Microsoft's patents. If you don't know of Microsoft doing patent trolling with dubious patents, check the Motorola or Nook suits. They are suing for the use of open source projects, and using NDAs to try to hide the ridiculous patents that these projects might be infringing.
Re:Is Microsoft still evil? by Billly+Gates · 2012-03-28 04:17 · Score: 1

Forgot a *not* in the internet was not a big deal like it is today.
Most people still used dial up prodigy, AOL, and MSN to connect and the world wide web looked like craigslist and mindspring.
IE 9 is an ok browser. IE 10 will be very competitive against Chrome and FF. The latest consumer preview of Windows 8 shows its html5test.com score between Chrome and FF 11. Not too shabby, not to mention its javascript is the most compliant of any browser according to javascript conformance test.

--
http://saveie6.com/
Re:Is Microsoft still evil? by CubicleZombie · 2012-03-28 04:34 · Score: 1

It came on my netbook. Yes, that means I paid money for it.

I could understand just about anything crippled on Starter edition. Even the lack of configuration options, since it's supposed to be an appliance. What is unfuckingacceptable is that it actually runs a hash on the background bitmap file and bricks the computer if it's tampered with. The EULA specifically prohibits the end user from changing the background. That's like putting thumbtack on your chair and demanding money to take it away.

What's the first thing you do when you log into a Windows PC? Change the background. Sorry, you have to pay to upgrade to access a feature that's been standard since at least Win 3.1. And at that point, you've already opened the box and can't return the piece of shit.

Oh well, thanks to Microsoft, I learned that Ubuntu rocks on a netbook.

--
:wq
Re:Is Microsoft still evil? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 04:42 · Score: 0

Have heard the tale of wolf in lamb skin?
Or the scorpion which wanted to cross the river?
Captcha: despise ./ must have some AI picking their captchas.
Re:Is Microsoft still evil? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 04:55 · Score: 0

It was reduced for cost reasons.
The h.264 patents that slashdotters love to rail Mozilla for refusing to support are expensive and so are many others. It is hard to keep the cost of a netbook under $399 when Windows 7 took years of development and includes licensed technology from people outside of MS.
I worked at a PC repair shop and installing codecs was one of the top 5 things clients wanted so they could watch movies and things like that. I believe you can upgrade for only $59 or something stupid if this really bothers you.
MS even losses money for Windows 7 starter edition. If you go to youtube you can search for codes on turning your installation into the pro version. Make sure it is recent video if you really are cheap and can't afford it.
Re:Is Microsoft still evil? by MonsterTrimble · 2012-03-28 04:58 · Score: 1

Google, Slashdot, and Canonical didn't almost-proportionally regress
While I think Slashdot does need to get criticism from time to time, I don't think the editor issues are on the same level as Unity & the cult of Jobs.

--
I call it 'The Aristocrats'
Re:Is Microsoft still evil? by DeathFromSomewhere · 2012-03-28 05:04 · Score: 1

No they are suing for violating patents. The fact that the software involved happens to be open source is irrelevant.

--
-1 overrated isn't the same thing as "I disagree".
Re:Is Microsoft still evil? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 05:35 · Score: 0

All evidence points to Microsoft no longer being "evil". At worst, maybe jerks, but not evil:
From roughly 1989 to 2003 Microsoft was the Death Star. Then Google happened, and Apple, and Facebook, and Firefox...
Now they're a Red Giant. The torch has been passed.
Re:Is Microsoft still evil? by Openstandards.net · 2012-03-28 06:13 · Score: 1

I'd love to believe that like Sun's dramatic turnaround after years of being the enemy of open source, Microsoft was doing the same thing. And, to be sure, Sun did their turnaround, and IBM in the early 90s as well, out of desperation to get back on course when they were clearly headed in the wrong direction and losing out on new things because of it.
But, in Microsoft's case, all I see is case-by-case desperation that lacks the overall cultural change that IBM and Sun went through. Their browser was losing market share, hated by many, and stood a high chance of losing out on new things like HTML 5. So, yes, they have BEGUN to embrace open standards here. Yet, Silverlight appears to have all but died, not because of a change in Microsoft's morale stance on open standards, but simply because it could not gain critical market share with it. They could not overcome Adobe, and HTML 5 puts both Flash and Silverlight at risk.
Then there are moves like this that open source a part of .NET. Have they, like Sun, completely turned around and become a huge friend of the open source community? Or, are they trying to save something that currently has little chance of survival in the Cloud, which is being primarily built on Linux and languages that run on it, notably Java.
So far, all I see is case-by-case moves of desperation rather than the wholehearted change that turns them into true friends of open standards and open source. Statements they have made to support open standards and open source have been by an individual here, or there, and not official representation of the core values or culture of the organization as a whole. Thus, I consider these statements to be even weaker indicators of change than moves like a change to use an Apache license.
At best, I am cautiously optimistic. The fact that they would even consider the Apache license is a miracle when contrasted to their historical vehemence towards open standards licenses. Clearly, they are not AS EVIL as they were. But, are they the new IBM and Sun? I don't think so. Are they headed in that direction? I hope so. But, they still have a long way to go before that happens.
When Best Buy can sell a computer with Linux on it without violating a contract with Microsoft because Microsoft saw the error in their monopolous anti-Linux contracts, then I'll reconsider whether or not they are evil. When Microsoft completely opens up .NET, putting all its parts under an open source license and permitting all stakeholders to play a role in its evolution, permitting it to run equally well on Linux as it does on Windows, I'll reconsider their place in our ecosystem. We'll know when this has happened when I can watch Netflix on Linux, and not because Netflix was able to replace Silverlight.

--

Open Standards Portal
Re:Is Microsoft still evil? by bws111 · 2012-03-28 06:58 · Score: 2

Sun's dramatic turnaround? You mean the turnaround from being a thriving business to one that no longer exists? Somehow I don't think Microsoft is looking to make such a dramatic turnaround.
IBM is not some open source 'angel' either. Sure, they have made some great contributions to open source projects. However, they wisely view open source as just another tool in their toolbox. They support open source as long as it benefits them. They do not belong to some open source religion. Sure, they support Linux. Why not? It allows them to sell some zSeries boxes they otherwise would not sell. They can use Linux in POS terminals, etc. However, they also support (with far more investment) AIX, z/OS, z/VM, DB2, Tivoli products etc. None of them are (or are ever likely to be) open source.
It seems to me Microsoft has chosen the IBM 'open source when it benefits us' approach over the Sun 'kill the company with open source' approach. Wisely, I think.
Re:Is Microsoft still evil? by thetoadwarrior · 2012-03-28 08:37 · Score: 1

IE isn't following web standards and will no doubt fight webgl to the death.

The 360 isn't fairly open. You have to pay for everything and despite the fact MS is the only company that has real experience in browser development it's the only system without a browser in order to stop people from gaining access to something outside of their paywall. Regarding indie development, they treat that like a disease these days and hope it goes away. But in the early days that was a bonus for the PC gamers that they converted to xbox. But now they brag about how much time is spent *not* playing games on the 360 as they try to out "causal" Nintendo.

Their work on hyper-v was so awesome that they were booted out of the openstack and funnily enough people complain it works better with Windows than Linux. Amazing how that happened.
Re:Is Microsoft still evil? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 10:42 · Score: 0

Your chose to buy a version of an OS that locked down the wallpaper. You accepted the license.
YOU are evil for blaming other people.
Re:Is Microsoft still evil? by gman003 · 2012-03-28 13:34 · Score: 1

The 360 isn't fairly open. You have to pay for everything and despite the fact MS is the only company that has real experience in browser development it's the only system without a browser in order to stop people from gaining access to something outside of their paywall.
Look at who else there is: Nintendo, whose development kit costs more than my car, and Sony, who's fucking Sony. Compared to that, a $100 XNA license is as open as it gets, especially since it doubles as a WP7 license, where it's on par with Apple (nobody really *wants* to write for WP7, but it's a decent gesture.
Oh, and Nintendo originally charged for the web browser.

Regarding indie development, they treat that like a disease these days and hope it goes away. But in the early days that was a bonus for the PC gamers that they converted to xbox. But now they brag about how much time is spent *not* playing games on the 360 as they try to out "causal" Nintendo.
The XBox actually has the best indie support of any console. They're still terrible compared to Steam, but you judge evil based on its competitors - there's a really good WW2 analogy I want to use, but like hell I'm going to give Godwin an opening here.
Re:Is Microsoft still evil? by Yvanhoe · 2012-03-28 14:18 · Score: 1

Microsoft is going the way of IBM, after having broken many things in the IT world and caused a lot of harm in the field of "intellectual property" ideology. Are they losing their evil ways ? This may be, but it will still take a few years of "neutral" behavior for me to forgive them.

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The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
Re:Is Microsoft still evil? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 14:23 · Score: 0

I think you should consider your place in their ecosystem. You don't matter and are not the market.
Re:Is Microsoft still evil? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 19:42 · Score: 0

...While I think Slashdot does need to get criticism from time to time, I don't think the editor issues are on the same level as Unity & the cult of Jobs.
(posting anonymously since I work for a popular hardware manufacturer)
As for me... I:
* am a hardcore Linux nerd, since the 0.9.x days
* write kernel device driver code, and publish it as OSS
* have contributed mainline kernel code that you are probably running in your Android phone
* publish personal OSS software on sourceforge
* can do just about any file manipulation operation faster at the bash prompt than any windows user can do using whatever tool they prefer
* install Linux on every server I run
* hate recompiling my video drivers every time I install a new kernel
* hate having to fix broken functionality after installing an update
* need my workstation to be 100% functional every time I boot it up
* run Mac OS X on my workstations because of the last three things
You made a perfectly good example of what is wrong with /. now with your whole "cult of Jobs" remark. That is the kind fanboyism that is killing this forum.
OS X is a good Unix, based on BSD and with most everything in it open source.
I boot up my workstation with Firefox, Mail.app and an iTerm session ready to go. I love Linux, but I can't do that reliably or as easily with any Linux distribution out there to date. The nvidia driver breaks, the flash player breaks, the sounds stops working. I want a Unix that works reliably and securely. That Unix is OS X.
FUCK YOU for being such a little piece of shit so tied up with your Google fanboyism that you have to condemn people for wanting to run a decent OS. You can continue to support your stupid fucking spyware company (or are you a retard that doesn't realize how they make they're money).
So, go ahead and keep continuing to use the software that I WROTE and is running on your phone, your desktop or your router, then shitting on those of us for wanting to run a decent desktop OS.
Re:Is Microsoft still evil? by thetoadwarrior · 2012-03-29 01:41 · Score: 1

Look at who else there is: Nintendo, whose development kit costs more than my car, and Sony, who's fucking Sony. Compared to that, a $100 XNA license is as open as it gets, especially since it doubles as a WP7 license, where it's on par with Apple (nobody really *wants* to write for WP7, but it's a decent gesture.

Oh, and Nintendo originally charged for the web browser.
You also get what you pay for. With Nintendo you'd get proper support where as with you indie licence you get treated like a leper, imo, and your game is shoved away in an indie section which is harder to find than game from "top tier" publishers. Whether it is a good thing or not, Nintendo also doesn't want their online shop flooded with a lot of minecraft clones for example.

The browser was free, they charged briefly, and then went away from that realising it was stupid to charge it. I do agree while they were charging for it that was really stupid

The xbox has the best indie support in the sense that it's cheapest to get onto but that doesn't necessarily mean it's awesome. If you want support from the company, like calls, you need to pay more for that. I'm not sure how many options there are but you can do so at least through some sort of MSDN licence. Which I believe is anywhere from $700 to $12,000.

Keeping in mind this is a company that's shaking down android manufacturers for money with the threats of patent infringement lawsuits too. In my mind, I'm cool with the idea that if they think Android is infringing then they need to do something about it but rather than picking on hardware people which is just a ploy to get them selling WP7 really (they often give more money back to companies that sell WP7) they should go after Google. Android is Google's and if it is genuinely infringing then they're the ones to go after.

I will say Microsoft is changing (imo, because they have to not because they want to), I'll certainly give them credit for that but I think it's still early to be acting like they're the good guys and everyone are the ones who are becoming evil.
Re:Is Microsoft still evil? by chrish · 2012-03-29 04:38 · Score: 1

WebGL is a huge security risk; you're basically running any old code, from the Internet, on your GPU. How well do you trust your browser, graphics drivers, etc. to not have bugs?

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- chrish
Re:Is Microsoft still evil? by thetoadwarrior · 2012-03-29 05:03 · Score: 1

As is any code, like JavaScript, that your run. There is a proof of concept going around which shows you can eat up all of someone's local storage without them knowing it.

And given that everyone else implements WebGL, have there been any big security issues regarding it? Given that you can target roughly half the internet given IE's shrinking share then surely it's an acceptable path for exploitation now and why do you think that a direct-x implementation would be safer?
Re:Is Microsoft still evil? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-30 04:38 · Score: 0

am a hardcore Linux nerd, since the 0.9.x days
And? What does that even mean? You followed a textual guide step by step and installed slackware? lol..

write kernel device driver code, and publish it as OSS
so that is supposed to be somehow "impressive" ? Anyone can write kernel driver code. Its no big deal for most average programmers. There is nothing special about kernel code. As a computer graphics programmer, the rendering code that I have written is several orders of magnitude more complicated then any piddly kernel device driver you have ever written.

have contributed mainline kernel code that you are probably running in your Android phone
WOW.. your company submitted code that benefited them. Amazing..

can do just about any file manipulation operation faster at the bash prompt than any windows user can do using whatever tool they prefer
It will be fun humiliating you. Go ahead. Post 2-3 of your best examples.

need my workstation to be 100% functional every time I boot it up
If you cant even administer a simple workstation you probably are stupid/retarded and should consider killing yourself sometime soon.

Re:Now if they'd do the same thing with MFC and AT by Short+Circuit · 2012-03-28 03:03 · Score: 1

MFC isn't a program, it's an MVC framework library combined with a C++ wrapper around most of Win32, which itself is mostly organized as OO, even though it has a C API. And when things don't behave the way you expect, you're tracking it down anyhow. Once you've worked with MFC (or any library) for five years, you're going to know parts of it at almost as well as your own code--and, given that the framework represents a hotpath for you across multiple projects, you'll know parts of it better than your own code.

And if the patch is rejected, at least they can tell me why. If it's "WONTFIX", then so be it; I'll leave the workaround in place. Otherwise, I can adapt and apply.

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re Approval Required jibe by Richard_at_work · 2012-03-28 03:05 · Score: 3, Insightful

To get code upstream Microsoft has to approve (pretty typical)

So, tell me, which flag ship open source projects main branch can you just merge your code into without approval? The Linux kernel? Apache? X? MySQL? Firefox?

Thats a fucking pathetic jibe "Unknown Lamer", not something an editor should be making.

Re:re Approval Required jibe by Richard_at_work · 2012-03-28 03:29 · Score: 1

Actually, rereading it you can take that in one of two ways, either "thats typical for projects of this type" or "thats typical of Microsoft *rolleyes*" - I took it in one way, which probably means others will as well. Apologies if it was meant in the other way.
Re:re Approval Required jibe by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 03:30 · Score: 1

So, tell me, which flag ship open source projects main branch can you just merge your code into without approval?
Maybe that's what they meant by "pretty typical".
I know this is Slashdot, but just maybe that wasn't a jibe against Microsoft.
Re:re Approval Required jibe by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 03:33 · Score: 1

You have read that all wrong. The editor is saying its typical for any project, not for Microsoft.
Re:re Approval Required jibe by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 08:13 · Score: 0

Agreed, why would this sentence even be there? I mean seriously, you expect Microsoft (or any other software house) to just let any old schmo submit code directly into their repository? Needing approval of a submission is so obvious as to not warrant a comment in a summary like this.
I read this as being typical for all such projects, rather than typical of Microsoft, but still, it is so typical as to not need to be stated IMO.
Re:re Approval Required jibe by jyx · 2012-03-28 11:13 · Score: 2

To get code upstream Microsoft has to approve (pretty typical)
So, tell me, which flag ship open source projects main branch can you just merge your code into without approval? The Linux kernel? Apache? X? MySQL? Firefox?Thats a fucking pathetic jibe "Unknown Lamer", not something an editor should be making.
I read (pretty typical) as (this is standard practice for most big projects like this). It took your mini rant for me to consider that it could be derogatory.
I'm all against editorials in my summaries, but I think your freaking out about the wrong thing here.
(Unless of course it was meant in the way you have interpreted - in which case, yes, by all means fuck that guy right in the ear!)

Fork it by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 03:06 · Score: 0

Fork it now!

New Approach by Martz · 2012-03-28 03:13 · Score: 5, Interesting

Microsoft now seem to have a really good grasp on how to deal with free software. They know they need to get developers and administrators to incorporate or use their products in part, rather than use the defacto standard free software, and that means they need to be interoperable and compatible.

A conference I attended for CakePHP in Manchester 2011 was sponsored by Microsoft, they provided a 3 course meal and contributed towards the bar tab for attendees.

They know the way to a geeks heart - food and beer - and they also know that they need to get free software communities to build support for Microsoft platforms as well as the free platforms. For example the CakePHP community, Microsoft went to great efforts to ensure that the MSSQL database abstraction class was improved by the core developers to better support the MS platform. Now I can at least choose between MySQL and MSSQL, and there's a chance I'd buy and license it for a particular application.

This attitude from Microsoft isn't new, but I don't really see them being able to execute the "extinguish" part of their normal plan on GPL/BSD/MIT licensed software. Instead I can see them at grassroots level trying to make their platform relevant and make sure people can hook into it, but they get left on the sidelines.

Re:New Approach by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 04:55 · Score: 0

They've been around long enough to learn that at some points they will have to change the ways the do business. Sometimes drastically. Their success will be determined by the timings and approach just like everyone else I suppose.
MS Management must have seen that their "Lock-in" mentality is not going to help them when Apple is prepared to up that anti so much more than MS will. Or even can since backwards/legacy compatibility is only a concern the MS has and not Apple.
So Management must have decided they should foster a platform, to see windows everywhere it has to be inter-operable with everything. The industry has told them they want to be using linux when they have to get dirty, so MS will help with linux so far as to make their own products compatible. They aren't going to go the "free" route as linux has done as they wont control. However MS knows that can't beat Apple at the lockin game (consumers are telling MS they don't want them to either). So MS will spread its ecosystem as wide as it can but will hold dominion on the direction they want their products to be used.
It's kind of a meet in the middle strategy now.
Re:New Approach by riyad.parvez · 2012-03-28 06:20 · Score: 1

I should be hopeful, but I am still cynical. Because MS has reputation of being pioneer in EEE (Embrace, Extend, Extinguish).
Re:New Approach by Chester+K · 2012-03-29 05:55 · Score: 1

> This attitude from Microsoft isn't new, but I don't really see them being able to execute the "extinguish" part of their normal plan on GPL/BSD/MIT licensed software. Instead I can see them at grassroots level trying to make their platform relevant and make sure people can hook into it, but they get left on the sidelines.
Microsoft is turning into IBM. Once the dominant player, but technology moved on and they didn't move fast enough to follow it and stay on top. IBM was blindsided by the PC revolution, Microsoft was blindsided by the mobile revolution.
I think it's the ultimate fate of any tech behemoth. As an organization grows in size, it naturally gets slower and less capable of rapid adaption to change; and in an ironic twist of fate, it also means the organization has enough resources to invest into research and toy projects that they end up pioneering the very paradigm shift that results in their downfall when they turn out to be incapable of embracing it.
IBM commercialized the PC and it spun out of their control when other people took the idea and iterated it faster and made it better. Microsoft has been toying with mobile/embedded/tablet ideas for well over a decade and in doing so undoubtedly laid the conceptual groundwork for what would become the iPhone and iPad. And unless the pace of technology innovation slows along with the fading of Moore's Law, Google, Facebook, and Apple -- today's behemoths -- will all likely end up in the same situation.

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NO CARRIER

Re:Now if they'd do the same thing with MFC and AT by sideslash · 2012-03-28 03:14 · Score: 1

MFC isn't a program, it's an MVC framework library combined with a C++ wrapper around most of Win32, which itself is mostly organized as OO, even though it has a C API.

Do you need more coffee this morning/[time of day where you are]? MFC is not an MVC framework. It is (as you say) a sometimes precariously-thin OO wrapper around the native C-based Windows API. And most people who work with it would like for it to die. Which Microsoft has actually been working at facilitating in various ways, between the whole .NET ecosystem and now the ability to write Metro apps in C++ against WinRT, leaving the C API out of the picture completely.

Re:Now if they'd do the same thing with MFC and AT by Short+Circuit · 2012-03-28 03:19 · Score: 1

My apologies; I misspoke. MFC implements a document/view architecture, not a full MVC. WP article is still critically lacking on that point.

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It's a trap by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 03:26 · Score: 0

duh

Re:It's a trap by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 03:52 · Score: 0

A very open trap

Re:Now if they'd do the same thing with MFC and AT by Short+Circuit · 2012-03-28 03:36 · Score: 4, Informative

And most people who work with it would like for it to die. Which Microsoft has actually been working at facilitating in various ways, between the whole .NET ecosystem and now the ability to write Metro apps in C++ against WinRT, leaving the C API out of the picture completely.

Microsoft has made it entirely possible for many people who work with it to move on to different frameworks, but has responded to developer pressure to keep MFC alive and maintained. I doubt it's one of their priorities, but it's better than where things sat with the release of VS2008. VS2010 has improved MFC, and it sounds like VS2011 is marginally better, with its first-class support of C++.

And while I'd love to ditch having my code support anything older than Vista, that's just not going to happen any time soon. My code isn't written for the mass market, it's written for specced use cases, which includes things like supporting WinXP and even (at times) Win2K. If you're writing a new application every year, or doing a major refactor of your code every couple years, you can keep with the times and depend on bleeding edge libraries.

If you're working with a large legacy codebase with install sites over a decade old, you're not going to be jumping at Metro quite yet. It probably isn't going to be until Windows 9 before Microsoft stabilizes their new platform enough to be worth porting code forward. Look at 95 vs 98 vs ME, and then XP vs XPSP2 (which really could have been a new operating system...), and then Vista vs Win7. Microsoft tick-tocks between "what fresh hell is this?" and "Whew! That's a relief!".

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holy TLA! by blackfrancis75 · 2012-03-28 03:40 · Score: 1

Really? One project; three three-letter-acronyms? OK, .NET isn't an acronym, but still..
Playing TLA Bingo in our developer meetings will get too easy if this continues

I didn't read it as a jibe by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 03:42 · Score: 0

I think the "pretty typical" was in regards to any major project requiring the changes to be approved. I'm not so sure it was meant to be a jibe as just saying that's not a huge deal.

The whole sentence is just bringing to light that there is a key difference since MS is the gatekeeper where typically it is the community.

Re:I didn't read it as a jibe by Kalriath · 2012-03-28 15:42 · Score: 1

Well, actually, no the community typically isn't. It's the project maintainers that make the final call. Whether they also call for submissions on a mailing list is irrelevant - if for example Linus Torvalds didn't want a particular commit making it into Linux Kernel, it won't make it. The reality is, they're running ASP.NET MVC in virtually the same way as any open source project - no "key difference" at all.

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For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".

Re:Now if they'd do the same thing with MFC and AT by CubicleZombie · 2012-03-28 03:43 · Score: 1

And most people who work with it would like for it to die.

I read that as, "And most people who work with it would like to die". For obvious reasons.

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:wq

Re:anyone see the flying *chairs* outside? by seandiggity · 2012-03-28 03:56 · Score: 1

i just looked and saw one fly past the *space needle*

TFTFY

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Geeks like to think that they can ignore politics, you can leave politics alone, but politics won't leave you alone.-rms

Sad part is the community has been wrong about C# by MikeRT · 2012-03-28 04:26 · Score: 1

Prior to Sun being bought by Oracle, you could be forgiven for thinking that Java was the safer patent bet. However, now we are about a decade into the conversation and the "safer" platform is the one where there is a major patent battle while Microsoft has never once even bared its fangs at Mono. I think the difference comes down to this...

For Microsoft, C# is just a gateway drug to making Windows apps. Microsoft honestly doesn't give a rat's ass if you are building products with C# or any other aspect of the .NET on Linux platform because .NET is just a means to an end for them. Their goal isn't to make you a C# developer, it's to make you write code that works only on Windows. If you use C# to make a Linux app, you are no different to them than someone who makes a Linux app in C++. Compared to Oracle, it probably gives them a little skip in their step to think that Mono will never enable true Windows development because that dichotomy leans commercial development in their favor without them having to be rat bastards about anything.

The same is not true of Java. Java is a whole damn platform unto itself. When Oracle senses their grip is failing, they have to squeeze harder because the goal is to make "Java apps" not "Java apps for Oracle Solaris/Unbreakable Linux." Therefore they have a lot more incentive to control.

It's pointless to conjecture about how Microsoft would have dealt with Mono had Google used it for Android because Microsoft very well might have let them violate Microsoft's patents to their hearts' content as a way to isolate Oracle a little. If Windows Phone and Android used .NET, not Java, there would be no mobile Java platform worth mentioning. That works 10x better to Microsoft's advantage than the short term victory of hurting Google.

Thanks for the tip by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 04:33 · Score: 0

Thanks for the tip. Microsoft is putting old, dead, proprietary code --still tied up in patents-- into the wild (and possibly occupying space on Sourceforge). Its sufficiently full of holes, security vulnerabilities and broken that anyone wanting to do anything with it 1) has to debug it, 2) has to code software (in general) exclusive to microsoft, and 3) still has legal patent mine fields to dance through at the end of the process. Wouldn't it be better (easier, faster) to cover yourself in honey and jump on a nest of army ants?

Re:Thanks for the tip by Kalriath · 2012-03-28 15:45 · Score: 1

Oh get over yourself. ASP.NET MVC is still very much alive, very much open source, and not "tied up in patents". Also, Microsoft owns Codeplex, and has very few projects on Sourceforge. Everything has to have an ulterior motive for you fucks doesn't it?

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For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".

Re:Now if they'd do the same thing with MFC and AT by spongman · 2012-03-28 04:52 · Score: 0

MFC is not an MVC framework.

err... from the wikipedia article you linked to:

Implementations as GUI frameworks

...
Microsoft Foundation Class Library (MFC) – called the document/view architecture.

Re:Now if they'd do the same thing with MFC and AT by mk1004 · 2012-03-28 04:56 · Score: 1

If you're working with a large legacy codebase with install sites over a decade old, you're not going to be jumping at Metro quite yet. It probably isn't going to be until Windows 9 before Microsoft stabilizes their new platform enough to be worth porting code forward. Look at 95 vs 98 vs ME, and then XP vs XPSP2 (which really could have been a new operating system...), and then Vista vs Win7. Microsoft tick-tocks between "what fresh hell is this?" and "Whew! That's a relief!".

Where's my mod +1 when I need it?

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I can mend the break of day, heal a broken heart, and provide temporary relief to nymphomaniacs.

Re:Now if they'd do the same thing with MFC and AT by sideslash · 2012-03-28 05:22 · Score: 2

Just using the word "framework" doesn't imply "MVC framework". Model-View-Controller is a specific software engineering design pattern that is not built into MFC to my knowledge.

Re Now if they do the same thing with MFC and ATL by b4dc0d3r · 2012-03-28 05:29 · Score: 1

Waiting for approval is a valid point, but anyone who spent time using MFC probably has their own list of things that drive them bonkers, and most likely know where the fix needs to be. Screw approval, fix it in your code and ship the result linked statically.

No joke, even the C/C++ headers in MSVC 6 are broken, and due to licensing issues Microsoft can't release a patch for it. People just fix it locally and it's done. Of course, this is mostly STL, so it's not in the runtime DLL files so you could still dynamically link these updates.

http://www.dinkumware.com/vc_fixes.html

If you choose you can install the source code to the MFC library, and step through it like your own code. Just like you can go through the C/C++ runtimes. You're not supposed to fix and re-build it, they did not release the build/project files, only the code so the PDB files could tell the debugger where to look.

If you have spent time in MFC, you quickly learn that every other line of code is likely to have some quirk that you didn't expect. Adding simple overrides requires hacks on top of hacks. And you learn how it works, even if you don't install the code.

I left MFC a long time ago, but I guarantee I could find and fix one bug a day for the next week, maybe two, just based on working with it for maybe 5 years. On top of my normal workload, not just hacking away on bugs for 16 hours. Entire websites are dedicated to working around how MFC doesn't work like it should.

The Petzold equivalent book for MFC starts out with making an MFC app in notepad, no wizards or GUI. If you understand what you are writing, and what the wizard does for you, you can make your own workarounds. All it takes is having the code to see where it is screwing up what you did to it. "The time it takes to find the bug in a program you didn't write" is negligible compared to working around it every time you write a program that works around the same problem.

http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Windows-MFC-Second-Edition/dp/1572316950

The target is different by Animats · 2012-03-28 05:49 · Score: 1, Troll

Microsoft is aggressive towards their competitors, as was IBM in its day. Both had antitrust problems. Google and Facebook are aggressive towards their users. They have privacy-invasion problems.

This is the price of ad-supported "free". Microsoft wants you to buy their stuff. You're the customer. With Google and Facebook, you're the product.

That's interesting. by javascriptjunkie · 2012-03-28 05:54 · Score: 1

Razor is a great little technology. It reminds me a lot of the old asp classic style of coding.
So you get all the awful practice, and a much deeper level of system access. On the up side, it does make .net much easier to work with.

Good stuff.

Re:Now if they'd do the same thing with MFC and AT by Billly+Gates · 2012-03-28 06:04 · Score: 1

I would be starting a Metro/HTML 5 AJAX gui front end of your app soon. This summer at latest.

Your customers directors, managers, CIOs, and others will be using Windows 8 tablets, Iphones, and Andriod devices to view their web apps and to get work done. If you are not ready you will be left behind by a competitor. If you must insist on win32 at least try to Metrosize it. Whether we like it or not explorer.exe is going away for Metro. Your costs to your employer will be sunk as you will be working on a dead project. Windows 7 will probably be used for many years in the enterprise but the trend is towards HTML 5 and it will only accelerate.

In terms of supporting 10 year old operating systems and browsers ...

XP is not going to be around forever and it is astounding it still is being used in corporate America today. It is dying fast and the acceleration is going up. 2011 saw a doubling of marketshare and many are enteprise users. g.statcounter.com has interesting statistics if you look in USA on a day to day basis of operating system usage. XP spikes during the weekday as does IE. These users are already switching to Windows 7 or in the early planning and implementation stages.

Your customers are leaving XP as I type this in record numbers. A year from now the last clients will be putting the nails in the coffin and I doubt if VS 2012 can even run on XP??

What will you do with that old code?

CIOS are tired of old decade old stuff that can't be upgraded as evident with being stuck with IE 6. They wont make the same mistake again. Trust me. A html 5 standards app or METRO wont have that issue and can be more easily ported to IOS or Andriod.

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Re:Now if they'd do the same thing with MFC and AT by Short+Circuit · 2012-03-28 06:51 · Score: 1

Don't assume you know my problem domain, because you quite clearly don't. You obviously don't even know the kind of user my UI faces, or that VS2012 isn't even in public beta yet.

Your lack of knowledge shown in your judgement is beyond laughable; it's pitiable. Hell, it shows you didn't even bother to read the comment you replied to. You didn't pick up on that I noted I'd love to set a minimum of Vista, and you didn't pick up that my requirements are driven by my customers.

Either that, or you're just another troll. I hope it's the latter, because I'm tired of encountering the alternative.

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Re:Now if they'd do the same thing with MFC and AT by DeathFromSomewhere · 2012-03-28 08:48 · Score: 1

VS2012 isn't even in public beta yet.

Yes it is. It's even supported for production code. They just don't call it 2012 yet since the RTM date hasn't been set.

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-1 overrated isn't the same thing as "I disagree".

Re:Now if they'd do the same thing with MFC and AT by Short+Circuit · 2012-03-28 08:52 · Score: 1

I'm well aware of the product currently called "Visual Studio 11 Beta". And is even called such in all the per-version MSDN API docs. If they rename it when they RTM, so be it. If not, then not.

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Re:Now if they'd do the same thing with MFC and AT by gbjbaanb · 2012-03-28 09:44 · Score: 1

Your customers directors, managers, CIOs, and others will be using ...... Iphones, and Andriod devices to view their web apps and to get work done

fixed that for you.

Abandoning ASP.NET MVC ? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 10:16 · Score: 0

This is truly an awesome news, but... my gut feelings somehow tells me MSFT might think: "Let's hand this over to the open-source community, we're not interested with it anymore and we won't be supporting it, we'll leave it to those guys. Off to other interesting projects !"

However, I am happy to be proven wrong !

Re:Now if they'd do the same thing with MFC and AT by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 12:28 · Score: 0

So you knew it was released and then made an intentionally misleading statement because of splitting hairs over the name. What a dick move.

Re:Now if they'd do the same thing with MFC and AT by Short+Circuit · 2012-03-28 14:00 · Score: 1

So you knew it was released and then made an intentionally misleading statement because of splitting hairs over the name. What a dick move.

No. It's not called Visual Studio 2012. It's called Visual Studio 2011 Beta. The person I was replying to used the term "VS2012", and that's the term I responded to. No misleading statement was intended. If he meant the VS2011 beta, that's the product he should have referenced. We're (presumably) computer programmers talking about computer programming, for crying out loud; accuracy and precision count.

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Re:Now if they'd do the same thing with MFC and AT by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 14:14 · Score: 0

I'm well aware of the product currently called "Visual Studio 11 Beta"

It's called Visual Studio 2011 Beta.

My god you are a moron. It's 11, as in the current version number not the year it will be released. Notice how it is 2012 and the beta was just released. It will almost certainly be called 2012 when it is out but it isn't called that yet because the RTM date hasn't been announced. Visual Studio 2011 simply does not exist in any way and will never exist.

Re:Now if they'd do the same thing with MFC and AT by drfreak · 2012-03-28 14:15 · Score: 1

I suppose you didn't bother checking out SQL Server Denali until it got renamed SQL Server 2012 in the RC either? Actually, that would be too early as well. You probably want to be certified first before using it. hehe.

Re:Now if they'd do the same thing with MFC and AT by Short+Circuit · 2012-03-28 14:25 · Score: 1

My god you are a moron. It's 11, as in the current version number not the year it will be released.

Doh. So it is. I've simply been misreading the various blog posts about it for quite some time.

Notice how it is 2012 and the beta was just released.

I'm a C++ developer. Remember C++0x?

It will almost certainly be called 2012 when it is out but it isn't called that yet because the RTM date hasn't been announced. Visual Studio 2011 simply does not exist in any way and will never exist.

Probably correct; you're right about the version number. I grew accustomed to VS2010's being VS10.

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tasks(723) drafts(105) languages(484) examples(29106)

Free Visual Studio by GeoffreyBernardo · 2012-03-28 19:19 · Score: 0

I cannot wait for Visual Studio and the Visual Basic Compiler to become libre software.

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Microsoft Releases ASP.NET MVC Under the Apache License

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