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Independent Audit Finds Foxconn Violates Chinese Work Rules
doston writes "The first independent audit of Apple's supply chain found excessive working hours and health and safety issues at its largest manufacturer, piling more pressure on the technology giant. This investigation targeted Hon Hai Precision Industry which is known as Foxconn. The company says they will try to stop their overtime criminality by July, 2013. Will the public ever sour on Apple devices in light of the constant media attention on supplier working conditions?"
You fucking idiots. Every computer, laptop, and Smartphone you own was either manufactured by Foxconn or has parts manufactured by Foxconn.
Can someone enlighten me as to why they are only willing to try and why this would take more than a year...or any time at all?
Less-geeky computer repair alternative for Lansing, MI
No, because they'd need to sour on all electronics to avoid Foxxcon's (and its ilk's) moral taint.
It's not an Apple problem, it's an industry problem, and Apple does better than most at identifying and correcting these conditions.
Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
Considering Apple is trying and doing a well job at finding problems I will continue to buy Apple products. Better than most other companies that don't only not care but will not even look into what is wrong with their suppliers as long as products keep coming.
Anyone going to apply the same pressure to ALL the other computer/phone companies that use the same facilities? I know Slashdot has a extreme anti-Apple bias, but does it blind you to the obvious? The computer you're using right now has parts that were made by Foxconn.
So the company known for its ability to immediately roused 8,000 workers inside the company's dormitories, ... and within half an hour started a 12-hour shift fitting glass screens into beveled frames. Within 96 hours, the plant was producing over 10,000 iPhones a day is now going to take 487 days (or 1 year, 4 months) to make this change?
What one fool can do, another can. (Ancient Simian Proverb)
China has work rules!?
Most linux users don't know this, but the man pages were named after Chuck Norris. Chuck Norris fsck'ing hates noobs!
How is apple overcharging their customers? They sell their products for a certain price and customers choose to buy it over similar competing products. Apple's gross margin last quarter was 44%, Samsung's was 32%, so yeah, apple charges a larger premium, but if the customer is willing to pay that price Apple can and should charge as much as they want.
I see you don't understand the nuance of the supply chain. The reason that iPhones and so on (and other devices like Xboxes, HP computers, Playstations, Android phones and other things made in that same factory as the iPhone) are not made in the US isn't really a wage issue, it's a worker numbers issue, as well as a logistics problem. All the pieces that make a product are made nearby (or a great many of them are), so moving the assembly to the other side of the world creates huge issues unless there is a very specific reason that makes it economically viable (like in Brazil, where enormous import taxes have made it favourable to build an assembly line inside the country). There are some instances where a component is made in a different place and then shipped (for example, Samsung's Texas facility that is making ARM chips for Apple), but generally minimising the need to ship components around *really* cuts the cost of assembly (far more than the cost of paying hypothetical US factory worker wages, of which there aren't nearly enough to staff an operation of that size anyway).
They use China because it is cost effective to do so - they have a strong manufacturing base, a large and upwardly-mobile workforce (since they are going through their industrial revolution right now), a growing middle class and a solid infrastructure. The claim that they're using China to dodge environmental regulations is laughable - one of the first companies to limit the amount of expanded polystyrene used, the use of low-lead solder, the removal of PVC from cabling and plastics... and all this before Greenpeace "shamed them" into "making changes" (ie, just telling people what they were doing).
Putting Apple in the "Big Evil Corporation" list over something like this is just enormously naive. Globalisation is not going away, nor are Apple the only ones doing it (nor are they the "worst offenders" by an extremely long distance). This doesn't give them a free pass - they need to demand better conditions and so on (and they are doing so), but the world is not the black and white super simple "everyone is either a Jedi or a Sith" Star Wars fantasy.
What a loaded article. It sounds like Foxconn's working conditions are actually much better than most companies in China...
Attack of the Apple apologists. What it actually shows is that Apple in fact has done little to correct the widely publicized working condition problems in its supply chain. Whether these problems exist in China or anywhere else is immaterial: Apple is the beneficiary of these oppressive labour practices in any case. Now Apple is faced with trimming its fat margins as opposed to its usual strategy of hammering its suppliers in underdeveloped economies in order to maintain its precious stock price. As it should have done in the first place, but reality distortion is Apple's entrenched culture. In the best case Apple begins to purge that ethical and moral rot along with some of the other less admirable legacy of its late founder. But the proof is action, not spin, and so far we have just seen spin from Apple.
And bear in mind that the Fair Labour Association is on the payroll of Apple and other perps. In other words, the primary purpose of the FLA is to "accredit" the supply chain on behalf of the corps that pay its bills. What is the real truth that would be revealed by a truly independent watchdog?
Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
I'm sure the millions of extremely poor subsistence farmers in China who have an unstable food supply, outdated housing and plumbing, and no healthcare are super appreciative that nice white folks like yourself know what's best for them and prevent Apple from exploiting them with a job that pays several dollars per hour and provides comfortable shelter and plentiful food.
Will the public ever sour on Apple devices in light of the constant media attention on supplier working conditions?
You mean, kind of like how in the 90s, people stopped buying from a company with a certain swoosh on their shoes?
Oh wait, that didn't happen, and Nike's dividend has grown from $0.03 to $0.30. That, despite having relatively well organized protest groups, including groups at over 40 universities. Protests and media attention aren't going to do much. There is zero financial motivation for Apple to make more than a token, symbolic move to improve working conditions. That is enough to appease the minds of their customers. Anything else they do is bonus.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
I love showing articles like this to those liberals.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
we live in a world where the west's material goods are supplied by slave labor, figuratively speaking of course, and many times, those jobs are the best ones around. this says a lot about the countries that we get our material goods from.
Mark Anthony Collins
I wonder which company asked FLA to perform an independent audit at Foxconn. That wouldn't be Apple. That couldn't possibly be Apple. Guess what: It was Apple.
Interesting choice of words, "overtime criminality". So people are working 60 hours a week and get paid for overtime. So what are things like in IT in the USA? I hear there are people working 60 hours a week as well, and not getting paid for overtime. In the games industry, there are people working 80 hours. In the medical profession, 80 hours seems to be the average in the USA (at least according to Wikipedia).
Turns out you can have your electronics made elsewhere. China is not the only place. They are the cheapest, but when you start paying for higher quality goods, they can be made in other places, often ones with not only better worker conditions but higher quality controls. For example my receiver is made in Japan. The lower end models are made in China but the high end stuff is made in Japan (it is a Japanese company). My speakers were built in Ohio (with the drivers themselves made in Denmark) or the UK (with UK drivers) depending on which ones you are talking about. My TV is less high end, but it was still built in Mexico.
Well guess what? Apple charges high end prices. Don't try and say they don't, their massive profits, massive amount of money in the bank is evidence they do. They can afford to move their production somewhere else if they want. It would mean less profits though.
I'm not saying they need to, I'm not playing morals here. I'm saying that this bullshit of "Oh they can't do anything!" is just that: bullshit. They charge the kind of prices they can produce their shit elsewhere and have the kind of money that they could set up their own production lines presuming they couldn't find anyone who could meet their needs.
However it would mean trading off some profits.
Sure, I understand the supply chain.... but how did it get like this? It's not like China had all these empty factories already built and all these organizations created and staffed hoping for someone to come along and the US had nothing in place. Cheap labor and relaxed environmental rules attracted the entire manufacturing ecosystem there. If we hadn't dismantled our manufacturing ecosystem by essentially transplanting it to China, we'd have all those capabilities, too. I think there is enough people needing work in the US that Apple could have sacrificed a certain amount of profit to be a better US citizen and establish it's own manufacturing ecosystem here. It would help me decide to purchase their products, leading to.....
I also understand the concept of Demand - I don't like the way they're doing business so I don't buy their products. Sure, almost the entire consumer electronics world uses Foxconn and similar companies but when Apple is literally overflowing with money, I think they could have "Thought different" about what to do with it. I'm using this knowledge by affecting the part of this that I can - the Demand part.
And since I have been modded Troll, I'll add that I didn't say that *I* thought they should be treated as an Evil Corporation (regardless of what I think), I'm curious as to the reasons why the public at large (and the media) isn't. Likely, it's Shiny Trinkets Syndrome.
Queue the angry mobs of workings who actually want to work those incredible hours. They can't get the wages we do but they can certainly work much more than us and are often willing to.
You gotta go down and join the union
You got to join it by yourself
Ain't nobody here can join it for you
You gotta go down and join the union by yourself
Working in the factories would kill a dog
Working on the belt line killed your soul
Working in the limestone and cement quarries withered your lungs
Working in the cotton mills shot your legs and feet all to hell
And working in the steel mills burned up your spirit
Like a gnat that lit in the melting pot
But out of this whole mixing bowl of hell and high water
The working folk have marched against Billy clubs,
Against machine guns
And they sang their way through the whole dirty mess
Woody Guthrie
What's mildly amusing about this is that some of those worker complaints we heard about were the worker's demand for more overtime.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
I'm a foreigner in China and I can tell you people here routinely work long hours and live in cramped dorms.
Peasants have always had it rough and conditions for the many who come to cities to find work are generally not much better. A construction site here typically has barracks/dorms for the workers. It is not at all unusual for the companies to cheat or delay on their pay. Here's one story (from a Party newspaper, take with salt) about that: http://english.people.com.cn/90882/7707122.html
I had Chinese girlfriend who worked as a waitress; she thought she had a good job. Come in around 10 am, work until 2, nap or go shopping unitil 4:30, work until about 11. If some customers wanted to stay later, a few waitresses would too. Two days "off" a month, meaning come in at 4:30 instead of in the morning. Sleep in bunk beds in an apartment the boss rented near the restaurant.
There are long queues for Foxconn jobs: http://micgadget.com/21420/thousands-line-up-for-foxconns-jobs-in-zhengzhou/
My phone is made in Taiwan. I don't know who HTC uses, maybe internal, but it is of Taiwanese origin, not Chinese. My computer does have some Chinese parts in it, namely the powersupply and motherboard, however neither are produced by Foxconn. Not saying the companies that made them (CWT and MSI) are any better, but there you go.
The rest of the components are different countries. My CPU was fabbed by Intel in Chandler, Arizona and packaged by Intel in Costa Rica. My RAM was made by Micron (under their Crucial brand) in the US. Not sure where the chips on it came from, they have plants in the US, Europe, Japan, Israel, Malaysia and so on (none in China yet). My SSDs were made by Western Digital in the US, my HDDs by Western Digital in Malaysia.
None of this is because I'm trying to avoid China or anything, just pointing out that a computer is much more international than you might think. Some components you have no choice on country. Any 32nm Intel CPU was fabbed in the US, since that's where they only 32nm fabs are. They can be packaged in a few places though. Any powersupply was made in China, they have the only people who do, like Seasonic and CWT (only a few companies actually make PSUs, the rest just spec them to order). RAM you can get all over.
If you decide Foxconn is a company you don't approve of, you can avoid them, though it'll likely take some doing.
However I think a big problem people have is that Apple charges premium prices but uses cut rate manufacturing. You can't say they don't charge a premium, how do you suppose they maintain those massive profit margins?
Often when you get premium priced goods, you get better manufacturing too. For example I like Denon receivers. Their cheaper stuff is all made in China. Fair enough. However their higher end units are made in Japan. I suspect part of it is to maintain better quality control, and part of it is just because Denon is Japanese and their Japanese market may care about that.
They're basically saying "We know we're committing crimes and we plan to continue to do it until July 2013
There is also the issue of trade tarifs. China has them, we dont. So if a company (say Apple) wants to see in China, it is very expensive to do so if their goods are not made there. On the flip side, it is far cheaper to sell goods in the US that are made in China.
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
Spin can go a lot of different ways.
From the article:
The FLA found few safety violations, noting that the company had already dealt with problems like blocked fire exits and defective protective gear.
The FLA found that many workers at the Foxconn factories want to work even more overtime, so they can make more money. Foxconn told the FLA that it will raise hourly salaries to compensate workers for the reduced hours.
Heerden said that it's common to find workers in developing countries looking for more overtime, rather than less.
"They're often single, they're young, and there's not much to do, so frankly they'd just rather work and save," he said.
The auditors examined one years' worth of payroll and time records at each factory, conducted interviews with some workers and had 35,000 of them fill out anonymous surveys.
Apple has started tracking the working hours of half a million workers in its supply chain, and said that 89 percent of them worked 60 hours or less in February, even though the company was ramping up production of the new iPad. Workers averaged 48 hours per week.
Half the households in America own Apple products [citation needed]
It's easy to understand that people like you were not around at the beggining of this century in the US. When people worked 6 10hour days a week for minimal wages. It wasn't modernization that stopped the practice. It was people on the streets demanding it. Unions and a lot of violence and heartace.
People in China don't have that option. Unions are illegal, and there is no recourse for poor working conditions. There is no reason to believe in fact that things will ever change over there, or that we will ever be able to compete with the near slave labor conditions in their factories.
Your assertion as to why manufacturing phones in China is more cost effective, is baseless and speculative at best. The Chinese workers are not going to be able to stand up for themselves legally and anyone with half a brain knows it.
On a side note I can't help but notice that this thread has been carpeted with one sided moderation on the issue. Makes me wonder...
once more into the breach
Sounds like the same kind of arguments used to support slavery in this country.
I don't think those articles show what you think they show. Either that or you think liberalism is based around the idea that people hate Apple products.
cited
Excessive hours? It's all part of the Apple culture: 90 Hours A Week And Loving It
You're right that apple gets singled out due to it's extraordinary profitability. But the reason they're singled out is, you'd think a company with a profit margin like that could let the workers live like humans, wouldn't you?
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
"Will the public ever sour on Apple devices in light of the constant media attention on supplier working conditions?""
Do people still by Nike products?
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
I wonder how many iPhones Apple sold in the time it took the writer to come-up with that phrase...
What business does Apple have telling another company how to do their business? Where's the limit on enforcing your values on other people?
Also, I think the 800-lb gorilla in the room is: If you have unfair labor practices, terrible hours, etc; why not quit? If that were true, I would. Why are 500,000 people voluntarily working there? Is a gun being held to their head?
The desire for a reasonable slice of the pie shouldn't be referred to as greed, especially in light of what's on the opposing side of the equation.
The labor unions fought for "more" from management and the "ownership society" (in the vernacular of the neoconservative right wing) because it was there and could have been shared, easily, for the betterment of all concerned. The high tech mfg isn't the auto-industry, which failed because it refused to deal with reality and build better cars. Audi and BMW, which don't mfg ANY low-end cars, and do business in Germany, one of those SOCIALIST states, are profitable and competitive. And Apple amassed 100 BILLION fucking $'s while leading their industry in innovation and price.
Don't give me this crap about the greed of the unions. Management and government together have 'arranged' globalization and the migration of U.S. mfg as well as anything else they can 'outsource' because it fed stock options, bank accounts of the already wealthy and an entire propaganda industry which supports politicians' placement in Washington.
You should really take a look at what's happened to 'our' economy, starting with Ron Raygun, as the financial sector's bite of GDP doubled and the rest of the economy shrank shrank proportionately. It's called stagnation, and the only reason the stats don't look worse is because our illustrious 4th estate doesn't bother to report on how 'oafishoil' measures have been manipulated over time to make it seem like all remains well in the garden, as long as we tend to the roots and wait for the next season of growth.
Gotta watch Being There again.
Sounds like the same kind of arguments used to support slavery in this country.
GP said, "let the Chinese figure out what's best for themselves." I would love to see a citation, anywhere, that shows someone from the 1800s justifying slavery by saying, "let the black people figure out what's best for themselves." That's kind of the opposite of slavery.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Words mean things. And yes, it's absolutely voluntary. People have to work to live however the "conditions" may be. Whether you're hunting on foot with a spear or hacking away at code for enough money to purchase food at the local super market, it's all voluntary.
Involuntary is where you're being forced by some other person or group with threats of reprisal. Involuntary work is brutal slavery at worst and indentured servitude at best. In either case, the individual has no legal standing to be allowed to walk away from situation or break the contract on his/her own behest.
Life is not for the lazy.
Although their situation is better, I'm having a hard time agreeing with the "We still treat them like shit, but it's not as bad as their otherwise bleak existence!" argument.
Random Thoughts From A Diseased Mind (Not For Dummies)
Have you ever seen the slave labor camps in Redmond! It'd make a Marine Drill Sergeant cry like a baby!
I think that all those commenters believing that China's working conditions are OK should be "re-educated", in the Mao sense, by working for a year at some Foxconn manufacturing line (without access to their american bank account for the whole period, of course).
If you haven't seen it already, here's the ABC News clip of the Foxconn factory to get a glimpse inside.
Okay let me make it simple for you. You're an American steel worker in a country that doesn't make steel any more, so we say we're going to help you out. We are going to give you a job for a couple dollars an hour, which is way more than you're making now on welfare, and you will work the hours we tell you, you will live in a dormitory we provide for you. You will eat what we feed you. You will do what we say with serious repercussions to your future health, happiness and longevity if you don't comply... and any thought of worker's rights, safe working conditions or personal time are fantasies you can give up right now.
I understand having a job is better than not, doesn't change the fact that this work is less than humane.
So, let me get this straight. You Apple apolgists are in favor of oppressive working conditions in the sweatshops that make Apple's shiny toys, is that it? Because whatever semantics games you are playing, your real meaning seems clear enough.
Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
Apple apologist much?
Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
Apologize for what?
Ask a question - get yelled at. Ahh, such is ./
Back to the topic: "If I found out a company I was outsourcing my work to was treating its captive workforce badly, I'd say something to them 'BECAUSE I HAVE A FRIGGING CONSCIENCE!'"
Well, since Apple has been performing audits and improving conditions since 2006, they must be your favorite company: http://www.apple.com/supplierresponsibility/
I'm glad I read.
Putting Apple in the "Big Evil Corporation" list over something like this is just enormously naive...
...according to all the Apple astroturfers.
Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
Oh I don't know, trying to assert that Apple has no moral or ethical responsibility for the bad behavior of its main supplier. Or perhaps you do not know what an "apologist" is. Hint: look in the mirror.
Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
They do not have any obligation to do this; they will keep making money without audits. I'm glad they've been doing audits and making improvements with their suppliers since 2006, but the idea that they should even attempt to care is based a society's (or the board of director's) opinion. Many people were against the Iraq war - the US and allies asserting democracy and Western values on others. This is just a smaller step in the same direction, in-that fewer lives are on the line. Where's the limit on enforcing your (Apple, etc) values/opinions on others? What right do they have to tell Foxconn what to do? The employees work there voluntarily; if they don't like it, they can quit whenever their contract is up.
It's an improvement like being shot in the foot is an improvement over being shot in the chest.
Random Thoughts From A Diseased Mind (Not For Dummies)
By this logic slaves can also just walk away.
Surely if it's genuine "criminality" then hands up, fair cop and time to stop NOW? As an individual you don't get the option to turn round and say "sure I'll stop robbing banks in a year or so once I've had time to re-organise my life and finances and arrange a different stream of income" ...?! One rule for us...
Have you ever been to China? Seriously? Do you have even the slightest idea what you are talking about?
People in China don't have that option. Unions are illegal, and there is no recourse for poor working conditions. There is no reason to believe in fact that things will ever change over there, or that we will ever be able to compete with the near slave labor conditions in their factories.
Right, as I said - China is going through its industrial revolution right now, with the migration of workers away from subsistence farming and other non-technology jobs into an industrial workforce, with the corresponding rise of a middle class. That is exactly what happened in the West too - just much further back in time. If you think it will never change (or that is hasn't already changed *enormously* over the last 20 years), then you don't really have an eye on history.
Your assertion as to why manufacturing phones in China is more cost effective, is baseless and speculative at best. The Chinese workers are not going to be able to stand up for themselves legally and anyone with half a brain knows it.
They're not baseless and speculative; they are well understood and heavily researched and calculated. A mass market consumer product supply chain is one of the things large companies know a lot about.
On a side note I can't help but notice that this thread has been carpeted with one sided moderation on the issue. Makes me wonder...
What, that reality has a "bias" that doesn't agree with you, thus it must be some secret conspiracy of paid moderation designed to silence the highly influential and world-famous /. commenters?
Slashdot *wishes* that Apple was pureeing Chinese children and using their bones to make glue for iPad screens because that type of glue is extra sticky and impossible to remove, making the device harder to repair at home, then perhaps they would have some actual justification for the frothing rage and wild speculation that goes into their white-hot hate of the company. As it is, they're just another large American company; some bad parts, some good parts, some uninteresting parts. It's not like they have a secret underground volcano lair.
According to anyone who actually looks at the facts.
Putting *any* corporation in the "Big Evil Corporation" list is naive, since it speaks to a thought process that is one dimensional and superficial. No single large entity is entirely "evil" or "good". Apple has plenty of both, but it's not exclusively one or the other. The world is not made up of Sith and Jedi. The vast majority of people, companies, groups, organisations fall somewhere in the middle.
"Will the public ever sour on [tech gadgets produced in China] in light of the constant media attention on supplier working conditions?"
FTFY, because if we face facts Apple is simply the richest, most high profile company using Chinese manufacturing at this time.
If Apple had it's 1999 or 2000 market cap I'm not sure we'd be hearing squat about this.
Some days it's just not worth
chewing through my restraints.
Wow, and speaking of Apple astroturders.
Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
They do not have any obligation to do this
And I do not have any obligation to refrain from criticizing Apple, for example by identifying Apple as a morally and ethically challenged organization.
Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
"Executives at multiple suppliers, in interviews, said that Hewlett-Packard and others allowed them slightly more profits and other allowances if they were used to improve worker conditions."
Apple on the other hand gives the workers on Apple products bonuses directly. Which do you think the workers would rather have "improved worker conditions" such as better soap in the executive washrooms, or more pay?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
There is in fact negative motivation for Apple to improve worker conditions at all.
If they had not hired this investigator stories about worker conditions would die off naturally instead of being fanned.
So because Apple is trying to investigate and help, they are being attacked. If I ran Apple, it would be - lesson learned, don't try to help. At least if I didn't have any moral qualms...
If people really wanted to help Chinese workers they would ask other companies to fund similar studies, to put pressure on them to "be like Apple". But now no company would be stupid enough to actually look at worker conditions because they see they would simply be attacked for it.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Well, easy, that should be illegal as well.
Why? If a person is willing to work that long, why should it be illegal to do so?
When I was young I sometimes put in 80+ hour weeks on projects at work. You know what ? I enjoyed it! Yes in theory the company was "taking advantage" of me by allowing me to work that long, but the truth is I wanted to and was happy to do so because I was enjoying myself and what I was learning.
Even now, I am reluctant to put in 80 hours but I still work sometimes a lot of hours during the week. I would hate to have my CHOICE of working denied simply because you are too lazy to do so and want to put obstacles in the way of truly productive people.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Rather than letting a guy work like hell while he is young, American do-gooders want to make sure that the Chinese have to endure a decade more of factory labor than they would otherwise just to lead a comfortable life when they leave.
Nothing like nosy Americans to screw over the poor of the earth, all the while claiming they are helping.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Only an Apple Hater would claim that voluntary labor was slavery, just because Apple is involved somewhere.
Take your "logic" elsewhere and screw over some other group of poor people instead why don't you?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
We are going to give you a job for a couple dollars an hour, which is way more than you're making now on welfare
How evil is that! Offering money which you have a choice of taking! BASTARDS!
you will work the hours we tell you
Actually the workers are trying to get more hours to earn more, so FAIL.
you will live in a dormitory we provide for you
They could live elsewhere but why? the dorms there are cheaper and have zero commute so they can work more,m which I have to remind you again is what they WANT to do. FAIL.
You will eat what we feed you.
That is total bullshit, as the ABC thing showed they have a cafeteria or the workers could eat their own food. FAIL.
You will do what we say with serious repercussions to your future health
The report said the safety issues had been fixed. FAIL.
So basically all I can get out of your fail laden Apple Hater screed is that you hate chinese people and want to keep them working in factories years longer than they would otherwise.
I think I've found true evil, only it's not Apple...
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
This is a teachable moment as to why it's important to have a democratic government people that truly represents the voice of the people. From transparency to civil rights such as the freedom of assembly (ability to form Unions). But until the Chinese deal with it, Apple is providing them and society the means by which to live an improved quality of life. Relative to their previous agrarian occupation that is. Please, get some perspective first. Then you'll understand why the Chinese are flocking in droves to be "abused". To them, this level of work making Apple products is a path of least resistance.
Life is not for the lazy.
By this logic slaves can also just walk away.
You fail at reading comprehension! Read read that again for your own edification.
Life is not for the lazy.
You misspelled "astroturfers", or you're 12.
Still deciding.
Nice counterpoint though, I can really see the thought and intelligence behind your argument!
Please can I ask what make/model of computer you're posting from ? It almost certainly contains Foxconn parts, and you almost certainly didn't do an ethics check on it before you bought it. The same applies to all clothing, food & services that you purchase.
So the same judgement would stand ? I've identified that Daniel Phillips is morally and ethically challenged ?
So as long as you're legally allowed to walk away from the job, whatever they do to you is OK in your book?
Congratulations, you're now a young female irish immigrant in new york in 1911. To prevent you from taking breaks your boss has locked the fire exits of the building, and there's no real fire codes being enforced because nobody knows better. A fire breaks out on the 8th floor of the building you're working on, but you work on the 9th and since there's no audio fire-alarm you dont realize there's a fire untill well after all the exits that are NOT locked are either full of impossibly thick smoke, dead bodies, and/or flames.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fire
But hey! Legally, you could have organized a union and prevented this stuff, even if it meant your job; before this horrible event that killed more people than any other event in NY City history up to the 9/11 event. So its all good.
You're an idiot.
To be fair, part of the problem is that priorities are also extremely f**ked up. Many have piled on tons of debt to live in a house they can't afford, drive an expensive car that's twice what they require, and watch a home-theatre that they don't need.
As an acquaintance of mine said: it's a bit irritating and confusing to be stuck in a grocery line behind the girl who's paying in food stamps while chatting on her iphone...
People need to wake up and fix their priorities. As long as having an iphone, big-screen, and monster-truck are priorities, people will not focus on the issues of savings, corruption, violation-of-rights and other such things that need change before the situation can be bettered.
Rather like the liar Mike Daisey.
Perhaps you don't know what a liar is. Look in the mirror. Mike Daisey will be staring back at you.
Right up there with your string of logical fallacies, you should go look that up.
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Ugh. I HATE having to defend Apple. I've never bought an Apple product, and highly doubt I ever will.
China's economic problems and poor living conditions are NOT Apple's reponsibility to take care of. If the factories they hire to manufacture their parts consistently provide higher living standards than the workers would have had otherwise, then they are doing their job. We can't just wish away the poor living conditions throughout a country with over 1 billion people, and 100 billion dollars is a drop in the bucket when it comes to actually solving that problem - even if Apple in any way DID have responsiblity for China. We can hope for the Chinese to all one day enjoy the same standard of living as middle-class Americans, but if that's ever going to happen we're ALL going to have to contribute and do our part. And no, that doesn't mean buying from Apple instead of someone else.
In short, laying the responsiblity for this solely on Apple is a copout. What have YOU done this year to help the poor, whether they be Chinese, American, or otherwise?
There is no -1 Disagree mod. Slashdot.org/faq defines mod options. USE IT.
Yeah, people should be provided with whatever they need while pursuing whatever career they see fit, like in the United States.
Oh wait, Americans also are wage slaves.
Why don't you Apple haters direct your bile at Foxconn's 20+ other clients as well? Are you against people having menial labor in factories? Are you such a fucking over-educated academic that you cannot fathom that Foxconn work is an improvement over the life they led before starting to work there?
Double standard fucktards are also fucktards. "Oh, I refuuuuse to buy Apple products because they force people to take paid work instead of starving, people really should take a higher education and get paid big bucks for writing Powerpoint presentations, like me. I only buy HP computers and Cisco routers... oh you meanie you are going to say the dirty words about those being made by Foxconn so I'll go LALALALALA!"
Yeah, this amassing of wealth is anti-socialist. There should be a limit to how much money companies and people can make without giving it back. Spread the wealth around please!
You are making the false assumption that Apple gives a rats ass about people's opinions.
Remember I was just saying *I* would do as a hypothetical. It has no bearing on what Apple will do, very obviously in fact they are continuing to try and help because they feel it is correct to do so.
In fact I agree with you that Apple does not care at all what people think and just continue to do what they see as the right thing to do.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
When people worked 6 10hour days a week for minimal wages. It wasn't modernization that stopped the practice. It was people on the streets demanding it. Unions and a lot of violence and heartace.
Or it was technological and business practice improvements raising US worker productivity which lead to rising wages and affordability of better working conditions. Unions may have played a role, but without productivity improvements, unions could not have had much influence (and indeed, they did not until in the US the 1920's).
Chinese factory worker wages are continuing to rise, despite the lack of unions, as the capital stock improves and businesses are able to become more productive.
there is no recourse for poor working conditions
Many Chinese migrants move from factory to factory as they build up a work history to find ones that have better work conditions and higher pay.
Just a thought. But what if empowering the local Chinese with more wealth and work advancement opportunities provided enough societal confidence for political change? Would new-found freedom from governmental reform be worth it? I'm just asking...
China is not a free country. It is a country that literally crushes dissidents under tank treads. It is a country that arrived where it is today by relying on brutal exploitation, and those in power are not just going to roll over.
People who claim that China in just going through a phase that current first world countries went through a few generations ago need to understand that China today is not like the US in the 19th and early 20th century. The US is better now than it was then, but it was a million times better then that China is today in terms of social and political freedom.
wiki
Second most deadliest industrial event in NY history at the time. I'm sorry, but forming a Union wouldn't have prevented that unless these girls knew of the dangers ahead of time. For something that is a -common practice-, this would be considered to be a freak accident based on that baseline and general acceptance. Or to put it another way, that's like blaming the World Trade Center building administration for not having mounted missile technology and parachutes available on each floor enough for every person to jump out of breakable windows.
If it sounds absurd, it should. It also proves my point. You're armcharing after the fact is way out of line to associate this freak accident with workers rights. The major safety improvements happen unfortunately because someone died to pave way for legislated safety reforms and enforcement. That is to say, horrific precedents must take place with the loss of life before such legislation can have an example to go by. Take it too far, and you end up with nanny-state oppression.
Or to put it another way. Living life is deadly, it's not without risk!
Life is not for the lazy.
The suicide rate in these places is shocking.
You lost all credibility right there. There's plenty to criticize about Apple, the suicide rate at a contractor's factories is not one of them.
The Foxconn worker suicide rate (1.5 per 100,000 at its worst, in 2010) is lower than the general Chinese population (22.23 per 100,000).
It is lower than New York (6 per 100,000), which itself is over half the national average (11 per 100,000).
It is lower than US soldiers soldiers (20 per 100,000 as of 2008), which was already an 80% jump over the rate in 2004.
It is lower than suicide rates at both MIT and Harvard (10.2 and 7.4 per 100,000, respectively, from a 2001 report). That's right, MIT and Harvard students are PAYING to be there, and their suicide rate is higher than Foxconn workers.
What are you doing about those shocking numbers? Who are you holding to account and starting online petitions to boycott?
The only thing shocking about the suicide rate of Foxconn workers is that people like you keep thinking it bolsters your argument. Hint: it does the exact opposite, if only you'd thought to analyze it for one minute.
Fanboi will say anything at all to avoid admitting Apple is once again proved to be full of empty promises. Must suck to be you.
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Point one out to me, just for kicks.
Quote it specifically.
You're a Mike Daisey the liar fanboy. Still clinging on to his every word even after he admitted making it up. How sad is that?
People who don't Realize the Dangers of Being Locked in a Factory and Other Libertarian Myths by DigiShaman, no workers died in a fire during the second printing of this book.
Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
"Let the Americans figure out what's best for themselves" would be the equivalent, that sentiment probably existed too.
Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
Point one out to me, just for kicks.
Quote it specifically.
Because you really don't know? It would not surprise me. OK, "According to anyone who actually looks at the facts..." False attribution... "appeals to an irrelevant, unqualified, unidentified, biased or fabricated source in support of an argument."
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A bit of extra overtime doesn't quite match Mike Daisey and your lies does it.
Starting at point 1. You're saying that the Foxconn guards do have guns, despite the fact that they don't.
You're as big a liar as Mike Daisey.
A bit of extra overtime doesn't quite match Mike Daisey and your lies does it.
Starting at point 1. You're saying that the Foxconn guards do have guns, despite the fact that they don't.
You're as big a liar as Mike Daisey.
The biggest liar is you, arguing that because a labor activist may have been wrong about armed guards that he was therefore wrong about everything else. As we learned today, we was right about the oppressive working conditions. Now, you attempting to push that under the rug, that makes you a bad person. Period.
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because a labor activist may have been wrong about armed guards
He wasn't wrong. He lied. Just as you do. He has no integrity. Just as you don't.
People like me and Ira Glass, the honest people of the world, in equal parts despise and pity scum like you and Mike Daisey.
lol sure then, can you find a reference to someone who thought that? As far as I can tell, the main viewpoint in Europe was, "how can take advantage of their fighting?"
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
I am criticizing Apple, not defending Daisey.
I hope you understand that it is people like you who reinforce the picture of Apple as a morally and ethically challenged organization.
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It's people like you and Daisey that are liars. You give people that are honestly interested in labour rights a bad name. Him only interested in selling tickets to a show, and you only interested in being an Android fanboy.
You had the opportunity to properly disassociate yourself from Daisey and admit he was a liar. But you didn't. You tried to pretend that he wasn't a liar. You're no better than him.
You have no morals and no ethics.
jo_ham, what you have to realise about Daniel Phillips is he's a follower of Mike Daisey. A liar. He has no morals or ethics.
Daniel Phillips ought to look up the concept of "telling the truth". He's still claiming that Mike Daisey was right, long after Daisey himself admitted to lying. Neither one has morality nor ethics. They're as bad as each other.
Oh look. Daniel Phillips, the one who's still claiming Mike Daisey was right, long after Daisey himself admitted to making up all the Apple accusations.
What a pair of liars.
No, I mean quote something of mine that is a logical fallacy. If you can't, then clearly I didn't make one, and you're just slinging words to try to escape from your losing argument position.
Of course, we both know that's what's happened here.
Where's your evidence?
There are many other contract manufacturers in China.
There are many other contract manufacturers NOT in China.
This exemplifies something is really detest about Slashdot. Asking for evidence to support claims get modded down.
Is this just a shouting match?
Actually, anyone critical of Apple's ethics is a liar according to you. And you are a slimeball camp follower according to me.
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No, just the ones that have proven themselves to be liars, such as yourself and Mike Daisey. He's admitted his lying, when are you going to admit yours?
I love how you created the strawman that better working conditions equates to soap in the executive bathroom. Also, I could find no source for Apple giving bonuses to supplier workers. If you want something real to sink your teeth into, I did find a survey in the news that what Foxconn workers really want is increased pay, but not so much shorter hours or better working conditions:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/foxconn-workers-would-rather-get-salary-boost-than-reduced-hours/2012/03/30/gIQA27NvlS_story.html
The same article I originally quoted from said that Apple was notorious for driving down the prices paid to suppliers, which must ultimately come out of wages paid to workers.
You have made it clear what you are. No need to elaborate.
Barbed wire around a Foxconn factory
Please bear in mind that your gaping-minded ah hominem attacks are perfect encouragement to continue digging for dirt on thug Foxconn and thug Apple. And there is plenty of dirt to find so this should be fun. Thankyou.
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You search for guards with guns and all you can find s barbed wire. LOL! What an idiot you are.
An idiot that's never seen a factory. Barbed wire fences are pretty standard everywhere. They keep intruders out. What, did you think they were to keep employees in? Are you really that insane?
Now why don't you man up and admit, that Mike Daisey lied, and you made a mistake repeating his lies.
Because whilst you don't do that, you're still a liar.
It was you who mentioned the armed Foxconn guards, not me. I mentioned the Foxconn barbed wire, which is a fact.
Want more Foxconn barbed wire? Here you go. There's lots more proof where that came from. Just keep being obnoxious and I will keep posting it. Oh wait, no I will post some more of the slimy things Apple has done and is still doing, that will be way more fun. And it is just amazing how much of it there is on the net, just waiting to be linked by me for your viewing pleasure. Did you know I am making a collection of sleazy Apple links? Because of you.
As far as I am concerned, you are a typical example of Apple degenerate culture, and an excellent reason for the rest of us to be critical. By the way, posting under an psuedonym does wonders for your bravery, doesn't it? As I say, an excellent representative for Apple, carry on.
And remember. This is not just about Foxconn, it is about Apple. Foxconn and Apple Fail to Fulfill Promises
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I mentioned the Foxconn barbed wire, which is a fact.
Of course it's a fact. And you thinking that there's anything unusual or wrong about a factory having fences with barbed wire on top is hilarious. You really are a cretin who's never seen a factory in his life.
And a liar of course. Let's not forget the fact that you are a liar. One who's actually more dishonest than Mike Daisey.
Want a picture of Steve Jobs parking in a handicapped space?
I know you do, because you continue to post ad ad hominem attacks from behind the safety of your anonymous nick, which reminds me of what a morally bankrupt organization Apple is. See, the moral of this story is: Steve jobs said it is OK for Apple to flout the law. Notice, no licence plate. Steve jobs said it is ok to disregard morality and ethics. There you go, people like you. I guess that's how to got to be like you are.
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Daniel Phillips, I can see the reason why you're concerned that your name isn't anonymous, given that your name, Dan Phillips, is associated with being a liar and a rapist.
http://articles.dailypress.com/2011-01-11/news/dp-nws-rape-suspect-fled-to-iraq_1_norfolk-resident-police-spokesman-chris-amos-fugitive-unit
Thanks for your content free post, here is another inconvenient Apple link for you.
Each time you post, I add another one of those to my collection, and you can rest assured you will be seeing them again. Too bad for you, you have hitched your cart to thug Apple.
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Thanks for your content free post.
Each time you post, I add another one of these to my collection of crimes committed by Daniel Phillips. This one is burglary. I don't know if you'll see this one again, there's an awful lot of Daniel Phillips crimes out there.
http://www.fox40.com/news/headlines/ktxl-wanted-suspected-car-burglar-arrested-20111118,0,2823782.story
Too bad for you chose off-topic astroturfing route, rather then being a decent human being and following discussions. We can all play that game.
Apple employees impersonating police
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Blimey Daniel Phillips, turns out you're an arsonist too. Have you no moral scruples whatsoever?
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/01/daniel_phillips.php
But, Daniel Phillips, probably that time you raped a child was the worst.
http://www.wavy.com/dpp/news/local_news/Norfolk-police-find-rape-suspect-in-Iraq
Foxconn hid underage workers
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Apple's Immoral Support Network
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Hahahahahahahahahahahaha! Turns out your an iPhone developer. Stockholm syndrome?
http://www.linkedin.com/in/danieljamesphillips
Daniel Phillips, you stabbed a 15 year old kid? That's not funny!
http://www.toledoblade.com/Police-Fire/2008/08/27/Youth-stabbed-in-fight-outside-mall-is-identified.html
The rape is the worst though. Daniel Phillips is a pedophile.
http://hamptonroads.com/2011/01/man-flown-iraq-face-norfolk-charges
Apple's Chief of Secret Police Resigns in wake of police impersonation scandal
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You're slowing down! I give you 3, you only have one?!
Oh I see that you, Daniel Phillips are listed on ripoff report for Plagerism, Theft, Scandalous Fraudulent Liar. You naughty boy.
http://www.ripoffreport.com/consumer-services/dan-phillips-d-p-mak/dan-phillips-d-p-makeup-studi-4b72a.htm
BTW, I notice I notice that Daniel Phillips is a very common name, but according to Wikipedia, not a single one of them ever did anything notable.
You should read this. It gives you a clue about what it's like to work for a living. In America.
http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-mcclelland-free-online-shipping-warehouses-labor
Foxconn Fiasco Not Apple's Finest Hour
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You could do with dropping a few pounds if you;re going to run around naked, Daniel Phillips.
http://pearleegates.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/college-group-plans-naked-5k-run-to.html
Apple attracts unsavory people
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