Army Reviews Controversial Drug After Afghan Massacre

Hugh Pickens writes "Time Magazine reports that after the massacre in which Staff Sgt. Robert Bales allegedly killed 17 civilians in Afghanistan, the Pentagon has ordered an urgent review of the use of the anti-malarial drug mefloquine, also known as Lariam, known to have severe psychiatric side effects including psychotic behavior, paranoia and hallucinations. 'One obvious question to consider is whether he was on mefloquine (Lariam), an anti-malarial medication,' writes Elspeth Cameron Ritchie in Time. 'This medication has been increasingly associated with neuropsychiatric side effects, including depression, psychosis, and suicidal ideation.' The drug has been implicated in numerous suicides and homicides, including deaths in the U.S. military. For years the military used the weekly pill to help prevent malaria among deployed troops, however in 2009 the U.S. Army nearly dropped use of mefloquine entirely because of the dangers, using it only in limited circumstances, including sometimes in Afghanistan. Army and Pentagon officials would not say whether Bales took the drug, citing privacy rules. Assistant Secretary of Defense for Health Affairs Jonathan Woodson has ordered a new, urgent review to make sure that troops were not getting the drug inappropriately. 'Some deployed service members may be prescribed mefloquine (PDF) for malaria prophylaxis without appropriate documentation in their medical records and without proper screening for contraindications,' the order says. It notes that this review must include troops at 'deployed locations.'"

Comments

The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[explosivejared]

Obviously it's pure speculation, but I have a hard time believing this would mitigate any punishment Bales receives. It would be a nightmare of the most extreme order for the military should Bales be exculpated, even in the most limited sense. The Afghans have been screaming for him to be tried under Afghan law. It would be hard enough to punishment short of the death penalty to the Afghan public, much less an outcome that ends with him in psychiatric care first. This is just one more massive headache in a case that can't be over for the Pentagon fast enough.

In the mean time, expect relations to continue to deteriorate between Afghan security forces and ISAF troops. There is real danger of this review fueling conspiracy theories and sparking further knife-in-the-back attacks on ISAF troops like we've already seen.

It increasingly seems that no one is winning from this war. Afghan civilians have had any sense that westerners provide safety shattered. Westerners trust their Afghan counterparts even less. And yet most of Afghan development depends on the industry that supports the international presence there, which a hasty pull-out would destroy. What's the least bad option here?

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[Anonymous Coward]

You're a fucking idiot.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[buchner.johannes]

Obviously it's pure speculation, but I have a hard time believing this would mitigate any punishment Bales receives. It would be a nightmare of the most extreme order for the military should Bales be exculpated, even in the most limited sense. The Afghans have been screaming for him to be tried under Afghan law. It would be hard enough to punishment short of the death penalty to the Afghan public, much less an outcome that ends with him in psychiatric care first. This is just one more massive headache in a case that can't be over for the Pentagon fast enough.

That's what I think. They will search through all possible excuses and then declare him mentally ill -- I mean, who isn't mentally ill if they kill 17 people. It's like medication ads today ... look long enough you'll find something wrong. That's no punishment.

It would be interesting to know what Afghans think about the payment per injured/dead -- how does that relate in their culture?

It increasingly seems that no one is winning from this war.

Nobody ever wins in wars. It's about finding out who loses less.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[Anonymous Coward]

Hear hear. It wouldn't be so bad if our communal self-awareness wasn't pegged at retarded adolescent level. That we must even discuss some of these issues, much less have them in the first place is an indisputable symptom of our fatal condition.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[Anonymous Coward]

We should make it right. $1B would be appropriate for this incident provided the families get at least 10% and the general public gets funding to benefit all. They need roads, schools, and reconstruction of what was lost. It would also make good PR in the face of atrocity.

The Afghan economy could be bootstrapped on mining. There's hundreds of billions worth of iron ore alone. Politics will be a lasting issue as Karachi, Pakistan has the nearest seaport and Iran and China are neighbors. If the US is viewed in a negative light, this supply will go to Iran.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[tnk1]

best option: everyone commits suicide and let the Earth return to its natural state... humans are an aberration...

You go first. I'll be right behind you.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[Anonymous Coward]

humans are an aberration...

If you think any other species would pause reflectively and think to itself "Maybe I shouldn't completely destroy this planet through exploitation," you're an idiot. Humans are no different from other species. We want to survive and reproduce, and we'll do whatever we feel like doing in the process of achieving those goals. Other species don't ruin the planet because there is balance between different organisms and ecosystems. Humans are so far off the intelligence scale that there is no species which can really balance against us, so we reproduce out of control and strip resources at alarming rates.

The problem, if there even is one, is that we are far too effective and far too intelligent as living organisms. Maybe in the past when multiple hominid species co-existed there was some interaction that kept everything in check. Maybe it was the death of the last competitor hominids that put us on the path to eventual overpopulation and excess of resource consumption.

We're not an aberration, we are a level of perfection that hasn't before been seen. I figure eventually our species will fork into at least two distinct species, to somehow restore balance. Maybe they'll even be of our own creation -- mutants, enhanced clones, or something else.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[jythie]

'natural state' is meaningless, humans are part of nature.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[jythie]

*nods* politically they have to punish him, though it would not be the first time the US has quietly let a citizen off the hook when a weak forign government screams bloody murder.

The bigger problem, if this medication played a role, is going to be the drug company. There have been numerous cases where a psychotic incident involving murder has been plausibly linked to a medication, but they have never survived court since drug companies do NOT want that kind of liability, so they fight tooth and nail.. and to be blunt, the medical industry is a lot stronger then the federal government. So it is very unlikely we will ever see a court approved link between this medication and a murder.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[Hatta]

It increasingly seems that no one is winning from this war.

Increasingly? It was obvious from the start that this was a fool's errand. Afghanistan isn't called the graveyard of empires for no reason.

Just to put some perspective on this, Bales allegedly killed 17 civilians. NATO killed 410 civilians last year. If it took 10 such massacres to get us out of Afghanistan, we'd still be ahead by a factor of 2.

Bales is no worse than the war mongers keeping us in Afghanistan. At least he potentially has TBI and/or PTSD to blame. Obama has no one to blame but himself for civilian deaths in Afghanistan.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[schlachter]

Until you've been through the altered psychological state that these and other drugs produce, it's hard to imagine the way in which it changes your thought patterns. It's not always possible to recognize your thought patterns as disturbed or to rationalize them away...or to surpress the urges associated with them.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[Anonymous Coward]

We want to survive and reproduce

It's true that I want to survive. But I don't really want to reproduce. Other people, on the other hand...

and we'll do whatever we feel like doing in the process of achieving those goals.

That's the end result, yes.

The problem, if there even is one, is that we are far too effective and far too intelligent as living organisms.

I don't think we're that intelligent. The fact that we're more intelligent than other species doesn't mean we're intelligent.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[Truekaiser]

No. they are looking for excuses other then the obvious reason. hopped up on nearly a decades worth of propaganda of these people being 'evil', and 'against our very way of life' etc him either alone or in a group. since many of the Afghanistan witnesses claim he was not alone. go out and slaughter a bunch of people for the fun of it. they want any reason to dismiss it from being pre-meditated.

as for why we are there and will continue to be there even in a less active role? we went in to chase out a certain group of people as the public reason. anyone who can read a map would see the country is valuable real estate if say the straight of Hormuz and the Pearson gulf is impassable for trade..

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[K. S. Kyosuke]

best option: everyone commits suicide and let the Earth return to its natural state... humans are an aberration...

The natural state of Earth includes having energy flows forming meta-stable localized regions of decreased entropy with complexity increasing over time, in one of their final forms usually called humans.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[geekoid]

How did this become Obama's fault? Bush got us stuck in that quagmire. It would be irresponsible to 'just leave'.
The power vacuum would be horrendous. We will leave, and afghan locals are more and more taking control of patrols and routine security measures.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[Hatta]

The power vacuum will be atrocious whether we leave now or if we leave in 10 years. This isn't a "you broke it, you bought it" situation. Afghanistan was broken when we got there, and it will be broken when we leave. The only question is how many lives we throw away before we realize that fact.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[Americano]

I'm sorry, how is Afghanistan "valuable real estate for trade" if we can't use the strait of Hormuz and the Persian Gulf? A land-locked, mountainous country, with the sides closest to the Gulf being bordered by Iran on one side and Pakistan on the other, and miles and miles of mountains in between? Are we gonna build roads across all of that terrain, airlift in all our trade goods, and drive them to the borders of Pakistan and Iran, only to be turned around and sent back to our airbases?

Your argument would have made far more sense if you had suggested the government wants a military footprint between Pakistan and Iran - airbases, staging areas, etc. I could credit that that's something the DoD might be interested in. But trade? Please.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[History's Coming To]

I took mefloquine for around three months while in Nepal. It does, without any doubt, have some strange psychological effects. In my case it took the form of strange "waking dreams", I could close my eyes and start dreaming without having to fall asleep. Add effects of this nature to a high-stress situation and you've got a person who probably shouldn't be allowed to wander around with a loaded rifle. Given the high praise that's been heaped on this soldier for his previous conduct and it wouldn't surprise me at all if mefloquine was an aggravating factor. Of course, there's no information on whether he was taking it or not, but if he was it's an urgent issue that needs to be dealt with ASAP.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[shutdown -p now]

It would be irresponsible to 'just leave'.

Unless you have a coherent plan on how to fix it, it is even more irresponsible to stay - you waste money and lives without anything to go for it.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[lgw]

Countries win wars all the time. War is the extension of a countries political will. In the abstract, war is about removing your opponent's ability to resist your political will - carthago delenda est. In practice war is about making it unacceptably costly for your opponent to resist your political will.

The Afghan war has always been a mystery to me. I understood a few months of knocking back Taliban camps, but since then? What exactly are we trying to force the Afghans to do? How exactly is this effort hurting our opponents there so much that they'll eventually have to concede to our will?

Iraq made perfect sense to me, but this one I just don't get.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[lgw]

Realistically, if you ever want a cure for cancer, a pharma company needs to have some bar they can clear and say "this is enough testing, we can sell it now". Maybe your thinking of other cases where the liability of the company was more clear? When the military is involved it gets even more murky - sometime you knowingly do quite unsafe things in the military after all. Bomber pilots get stim pills that wouldn't be legal for most people (though pretty mild by illegal drug standards), but the danger of those pills is trivial compared to what they're doing while on them.

This is more a case of "what was the military thinking continuing any use of this drug" than "what was a pharma company thinking continuing to sell it to the military". Not every story needs a corporation as a mustache-twirling villain and a government agency as the shining hero, after all.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[lgw]

We understand. Everything that hapens in the world, everything, until the next Republican president is elected, is Bush's fault. To say otherwise is racist, of course.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[Anonymous Coward]

^^ This. I was issued this medication for both my deployments to Afghanistan as a contractor, and I didn't take it either time. Those who warned me said it would cause horrible nightmares and potential liver damage. No thanks...

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[thomst]

explosivejared sighed:

It increasingly seems that no one is winning from this war.

prompting Hatta to respond:

Increasingly? It was obvious from the start that this was a fool's errand. Afghanistan isn't called the graveyard of empires for no reason.

Actually, it wasn't obvious at all. The U.S. invasion was welcomed by the majority of Afghans, who were pretty sick of the Taliban's reign of terror. The problem is that the Bush administration, instead of proceeding with the arduous and expensive task of nation-building that would have ensured the Taliban's permanent defeat, opted to turn its attention to invading Iraq. As a result, conditions for the average Afghan did not improve AT ALL under the American occupation, while Pakistan, our nominal ally in the "war on terror", sheltered, trained, equipped, and encouraged the Afghan Taliban to resume guerilla war against the American/NATO occupiers. As that conflict began generating more and more collateral damage, the tide of Afghan opinion turned more and more against the occupying troops, to the point that, today, our forces are nearly as hated as the Soviets were - and the Taliban are once again seen as saviors.

Obama inherited the Afghan quagmire from the Bush administration - which was responsible for causing it. Should he be persuaded immediately to withdraw all U.S. troops, not only would the Taliban instantly re-take control of Afghanistan, they would wreak horrific retribution against the most westernized sectors of Afghani society (i.e. - the most civilized and tolerant sectors), and plunge the country back into the 14th century hellhole it was before we invaded it in 2001.

And, not at all incidentally, make it once again a haven for international terrorism, a la September 2001.

It's a lousy, no-win situation to find ourselves stuck in, but the blame belongs with George W. Bush, not Barack Obama. As with the economy, Obama is merely the janitor, stuck with cleaning up after another one of the frat boy's "Wild Thing" parties.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[chrb]

When a U.S. soldiers goes on a rampage shooting civilians, he is labelled as an unwitting victim of psychotropic drugs.

When a Norwegian militant goes on a rampage shooting civilians, he is labelled as an unwitting victim of mental illness.

What do you think would happen if either of these men were Muslim? These defenses would never be accepted.

Different rules for different folk...

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[Hatta]

Actually, it wasn't obvious at all.

I called it in 2001.

Should he be persuaded immediately to withdraw all U.S. troops, not only would the Taliban instantly re-take control of Afghanistan, they would wreak horrific retribution against the most westernized sectors of Afghani society (i.e. - the most civilized and tolerant sectors), and plunge the country back into the 14th century hellhole it was before we invaded it in 2001.

Which will happen whether we leave today, or whether we leave in 2112. The longer we stay, the more hated we become by Afghanis. That plays right into the Taliban's hands.

It's a lousy, no-win situation to find ourselves stuck in

We're not stuck in it. Obama is choosing to prolong it. There's no reason to believe any occupying force can ever civilize Afghanistan. Why do you think Obama can succeed where the Soviets, the British, even Alexander the Great failed?

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[triffid_98]

What do you think would happen if either of these men were Muslim? These defenses would never be accepted.

They'd be applauded for their heroic actions against the infidels on Al-Jazeera?

The difference between a terrorist/insurgent and a patriot/freedom fighter quite often depends on who's telling the story...

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[Jonner]

The longest our forces stay there, the more of them will be killed, the more Afghans they'll kill and the more enemies they'll make. Both the Afghan and Pakistani governments are completely ineffective against the Taliban. There is no good option for the US. Therefore, there's no point in trying any more and we should get out as quickly as we can.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[StikyPad]

Nobody ever wins in wars. It's about finding out who loses less.

The people with the least to lose, obviously.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[Anonymous Coward]

I recently took the stuff while travelling South East Asia for a few months. The only side effect: REALLY vivid dreams. I dunno, maybe this messes with some people, but I have to say that I had a really, really good time. I looked forward to sleep and lived some great adventures in my mind. Nothing crazy, the walls weren't melting in an acid trip mess. I just gained abilities and control over my dreams that I never had before, kind of like lucid dreaming. I was in a controllable and entertaining world of unlimited creativity.

Highly recommended :)

FYI, I'm also a recreational psychonaut (once every few months), so I enjoy that sort of thing. It's far more mild than anything I ever found at burning man.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[Thing 1]

Realistically, if you ever want a cure for cancer

Realistically, we have a cure for cancer.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[dadioflex]

He joined the US army, of course he was mentally ill. Never volunteer for anything, as my Staff Sergeant used to remind me.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[StikyPad]

Not to discount the possible influence of medication, but isn't it also plausible that he got sick and tired of a populous that did nothing to help or inform them as they walked and drove over IEDs day in and day out? Of watching his buddies lose their limbs and lives while villagers look surprised and say "How did that get there?!?" That he wanted to teach them a lesson (even though that meant becoming just like the so-called enemy he was fighting)? I'm not saying it's right to kill civilians caught in the middle -- not by any stretch -- but I can understand why it may have happened without any external "contributing factors" whatsoever.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[Grygus]

Wait, what? I was with you right until the end. Iraq was already incapable of resisting our political will. We had occupied most of its airspace for a decade; its military was still in ruins from the previous invasion. We gained nothing.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[Anonymous Coward]

Your crazy...

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[KingAlanI]

Yeah, if Bales pulls off an OJ Simpson, the shit will hit the fan even more than it already has. Yet ya don't want to railroad/scapegoat him either

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[petsounds]

Problem is, early on we were objectively winning the war in Afghanistan. The Taliban was getting their asses kicked. But then Bush decided to invade Iraq and diverted most of the troops to that morass. The Taliban had time to regroup and restrategize, and by the time Bush noticed Afghanistan again the conflict had gotten away from us. Now we're stuck in Afghanistan mostly for political reasons; namely, Obama didn't want to pull out and look like a weak-on-defense Democrat, but everyone knows the war is already lost. The real losers are going to be the Afghan people, who will be once again subjected to brutality and archaic abridgments of rights (especially the women) after we leave.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[guises]

in one of their final forms usually called humans.

This being the point, of course. It's the fact that humans have determined themselves to be final and taken steps to ensure that this is the case that causes people to look at us and see an aberration. If humans were simply one more step on the evolutionary chain then it would be easier to refer to ourselves as natural.

Of course... the fact that we've defined "natural" to mean "things which are are unrelated to humans" probably has something to do with it as well.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[lgw]

The goal in Iraq were:

* (Deterrence) prove to petty dictators the world over that if you piss us off enough, we can and will drag you out of your spider hole and kill you.

* Remove the need for a standing army in the middle east, especially get them out of Saudi (near Mecca). That really was pissing off the locals.

* Give the Iraqi citizens a chance at democracy, because if that works it might well inspire democracy in other nations in that region.

Worked pretty well on all 3 counts, though I would have given long odds on the last - I thought Iraqi democracy was 50/50 at best, and never imagined the Arab Spring coming in my lifetime.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[SylvesterTheCat]

> What exactly are we trying to force the Afghans to do?

We are not trying to -force- the Afghans to do anything. Fundamentally, we are doing two things:

1. Security. We (US military + NATO / ISAF military + other militarys) are trying to help them create a credible security force (Afghan police forces + Afghan military) so that they can secure their borders against Talilban, Al Quada, & other external threats as well as against internal threats (criminal), Taliban et al.

2. Governance. We (US government + European governments + other governments) are trying to help them create a legitimate government,

Part of why this is hard is that the first requires the second.

I am familiar with all of this because I have been there twice. The first time, I worked with an Afghan Army in a training / mentoring role.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[SylvesterTheCat]

The first time I was deployed there 2007-08, we were all issued Doxycycline for malaria prevention. The only significant side effects that I noticed was increased sensitivity to the sun, sometimes a mild upset stomach, and the slight annoyance of having to remember to take it every day. OK, not a big deal, unless you spend almost all of your day outside in a hot, cloudless environment. Rats... Even though the uniform does a good job of protecting against sunburn and, whenever possible, I wore the sun hat (a.k.a. "boonie" hat) vice the patrol cap or helmet, I did get some sun burn. Even today, I can look at my hands and see where my sleeves stopped on my hands.

We were told that mefloquine was an available alternative and that the advantages included only having to take it once per week and it didn't increase sensitivity to sunlight. So, after about 8 months in theater, I asked to switch. A few months later, when I was getting to the end of my deployment, I noticed that I was having auditory hallucinations. I'm not talking about "hearing voices," but rather it was like I was hearing sounds differently. I would hear normal sounds to my peripheral and there would be an added intensity to it that would get my attention. It is not an easy thing to describe and I know that I'm not doing it very well. At times, I would find myself on edge. Not the "draw my weapon and turn toward the threat"-type of reaction, but rather an always on edge, always guarded reaction. Considering that we were immersed with the Aghan soldiers (speaking a different language with a different culture and considerably less educated) almost daily, it was already a stressful situation. We also knew that there were informants to the Taliban amongst the Afghan Army junior enlisted ranks. Adding a pharmaceutical factor to the mix only made it slightly more intense.

What really scared the crap out of me about it was that the change had been so slow and subtle that it had crept up on me over a period of time without me noticing it.

I immediately switched back to Doxycycline and within a couple of months the side effects were gone.
The second time I was there (2010-2011), none of the medical professionals even mentioned mefloquine as an option. I took my Doxycycline and that was it.

I am not saying whether or not mefloquine was a factor in Bales actions. I am not a medical professional. I would say, based on my experience, that if he was taking mefloquine for an extended period of time, it could have been a factor.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[thomst]

I opined:

It's a lousy, no-win situation to find ourselves stuck in

Prompting Hatta to respond:

We're not stuck in it. Obama is choosing to prolong it. There's no reason to believe any occupying force can ever civilize Afghanistan. Why do you think Obama can succeed where the Soviets, the British, even Alexander the Great failed?

Actually, contrary to popular opinion, Alexander mostly succeeded.

He did so by marrying Roxana, daughter of Oxyartes, the most powerful of the Bactrian warlords, thus linking what is now Afghanistan to his empire by the promise that the heirs to his throne would be half-Bactrian. His marriage took place after the successful siege of the Sogdian Rock, the previously-impregnable fortress of the rebel Persian warlord Ariamazes, where Roxana and her mother had taken refuge. Essentially, his strategy was, "See? I can easily conquer even your strongest redoubts. Come, let us be brothers." He also settled colonists in what is now the Northwest Territories of Pakistan to provide the "civilizing" influence of Hellenistic culture, and their descendents still live there today as the Kalash tribe.

Although the area became independent again after Alexander's death, it was one of the few parts of his empire that never revolted against his rule during his lifetime (some of the disgruntled colonists - mostly disabled veterans of his army - did abandon their posts when rumors of his death swept the empire during his crossing of the Gedrosian desert, but they were Greeks and Macedonians, not Bactrians, and were punished as mutineers).

Alexander succeeded where the Brits and the Soviets failed, because he first demonstrated his overwhelming military superiority, and then employed his father's favorite diplomatic strategy of binding the most prominent regional strongman to him by marriage.

Obama doesn't have that option. Nonetheless, we have obligations to the residents of Kabul, if nothing else, who will be massacred by the Taliban, should they take over. Every educator, every healthworker, every policeman and Afghan Army member, every non-Sunni, will be slaughtered by the Taliban immediately after they gain control. And it is our presence that coaxed those folks into revealing themselves. I think we owe them a debt of protection for their courage - but we have to be smarter about it than we have been. It may even be necessary to offer them sanctuary in the West in order to meet our obligation to them - but, if we simply leave them to the mercy of the Taliban, we will have failed in a moral sense even more profoundly than the Soviets failed in a military one.

And I disagree that our failure was always inevitable. We COULD have built Afghanistan into an actual, functional nation-state (as opposed to the collection of semi-autonomous warlord fiefdoms which it has been since the Soviet invasion), if we had taken up the burden of nation-building to which our September 2001 invasion obligated us. That we did not is all the responsibility of Bush and Cheney. Again, Obama is merely stuck with trying to salvage as much as possible from the utter SNAFU of the previous administration.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[Eunuchswear]

What do you think would happen if either of these men were Muslim? These defenses would never be accepted.

They'd be applauded for their heroic actions against the infidels on Al-Jazeera?

Don't watch much Al-Jazeera, do you?

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[Anonymous Coward]

I rather enjoyed the two years I took mefloquine while in the Peace Corps. None of the bad side effects, just more vivid dreams (thankfully not the violent/distrubing dreams that some people got).

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[History's Coming To]

That's what I meant by "high stress situation" - I wouldn't be surprised if there's already been a few close calls of this nature already. My point was the mefloquine certainly isn't going to help.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[Hatta]

It may even be necessary to offer them sanctuary in the West in order to meet our obligation to them

I would be all for that. But I'm not for staying in Afghanistan for a minute longer than it takes.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[KDR_11k]

How are we preventing further evolution? Civilization does not even exist for a timespan in which meaningful evolution happens.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[KDR_11k]

Hussein didn't do nearly as much provoking as, say, the North Korean or Iranian governments.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[Grygus]

None of that makes any sense.

I reiterate that we already had Hussein doing absolutely nothing except what we chose to allow. We didn't drag him out of his spider hole; we shot him in his cage. It proved nothing, except perhaps that living under the close supervision of the US military makes you an easier target. This is not a deterrent, because the people opposing us are not doing so because it is easy. Many of them aren't even particularly interested in living through the encounter; the idea that you can deter those people with violence requires a special kind of naivete.

I don't even know what you're talking about regarding the removal of a need for a standing army. Iraq barely had one to begin with, but still needs whatever they can muster. We have not removed the need for troops in the area ourselves, and there is/was no reason to think that an invasion would have that result. Neighboring nations kept theirs intact. The whole reason we're still there is because there is no standing army, the need would seem to be as great as ever.

I find it specious (and a bit insulting) to give credit for the Arab Spring to the invasion of Iraq, and do not see your basis for assuming that it had any effect in Iraq where, you may note, it did not actually occur.

Can you clarify?

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[Anonymous Coward]

If he wasn't taking it (or something like it) he was in violation of standing orders. If we came down with malaria and DIDN'T have the anti-malarials in our system (as shown by subsequent blood testing) that was an automatic field grade Article 15. We were on doxycycline, which also noted "mental changes" in the small print as possible side effects. It was a daily pill. I learned early not to take it on an empty stomach, and DEFINITELY not to take it after around 1400 or so, because I would have insanely fucked up dreams. The only time I've ever woken up screaming was on doxy.

The compound next to ours on Baghram was on mefloquine, so they only took it once a week. They referred to it as "Screaming Tuesday."

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[lgw]

1 - It didn't matter what dictator we killed, really, but we had reached a point where tinpot dictators felt free to thumb their noses at us. When Saddam went down, Quadaffi caved quite soon after on his nuke program, and KJI went into hiding for months.

No one said anything about deterring suicide bombers or somesuch through violence, which is what you seem tobe reacting to. Dictators respect only power expressed in violence, and most definitely have something to lose. Unlike terrorist "soldiers" (and perhaps some terrorist leaders), leaders of nations can most definitely be deterred.

Do I need to go into why it's important that they not feel free to make threats, empty or otherwise? Or how nuclear weapons were used every day during the cold war?

2- We had a lot of troops in Saudi Arabia (and later Kuwait), at the request of their governments. But those governments aren't at all popular, and our troops even less popular, and it was quite handy for local opponents of the rulers of Saudi Arabia (e.g., Osama bin Ladin in his earlier years) to demonize the US: because our troops were there, in peoples faces, and one doesn't criticize the actual rulers (and live). The primary reason those troops were there was the threats and posturing of Saddam Hussein. (Again, do I need to go into why th threats are enough?) And those threats weren't entirely empty - he successfully invaded Kuwait, after all, those governments were scared for good reason.

Getting our troops the Hell out of Saudi was probably the single best thing for US interests to come of the Iraq war, long term - that was a real irritant, now removed.

3 - What else for the genesis of the Arab Spring than the success of democracy in Iraq? We saw the same thing with the American and French revolutions, and the spread of democracy in europe thereafter. A culture can be ready for democracy for decades or centuries but nothing will change without some catalyst, some example to follow. Our invasion was a necessary pre-requisite for democracy in Iraq. The real work of democracy was and is done by the Iraqi people, and that hasn't been easy, but Saddam had ruthless control over Iraq and there was no way for it to return to democracy until an outside force removed him.

I mean, really, I know it's fashionable to vilify Bush, but come on. It was a stated goal from the beginning that helping Iraq to create democracy in might be an example for the region and perhaps inspire others. We spent a great deal of effort, blood, and treasure to allow the Iraqis the breathing room to create a democratic government that wouldn't be seen by the Iraqis as a puppet of the US. After signifcant struggle, effort, and cost of their own the Iraqis did so, and sure enough other nations in the region took the example and perhaps inspiration. I woudn't have bet on it at the beginning, but clearly it happened.

We announced a plan to do X to create Y in hopes of Z. We executed our plan to do X. We helped create Y. And Z happened. What more can you want? Yes, of course Bush's opponents laughed and mocked his stupidity the whole while for thinking this might come to pass, but it came to pass. I saw the same sequence when Reagan announced that by lowering tax rates the government would actually increase revenue, and despite eveything going to plan people still don't admit he was right about that either. It's not just the right that won't let facts shake their faith, you know.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[RockDoctor]

'natural state' is meaningless, humans are part of nature.

Probably more to the point is that there are very few, possibly no, environments on the planet that have not been significantly affected by humans. So to determine what the natural state of any particular environment is, may well be impossible (sense of "impossible", not sense of "very difficult").

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[Anonymous Coward]

That's exactly how the med reports read about this. That there were proven neurological disturbances. Chemical changes that took place across synapses. What's more, there are some cases, to the drug manufacturer's admission, where the side effects are permanent. How do you make permanent neurological disturbances after a drug is stopped? That must be some fucking drug.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[Anonymous Coward]

People don't admit that Ronald Reagan was right for two reasons:

(1) His actions are usually mischaracterized from the start, and
(2) He wasn't right.

Reagan instituted the largest tax cut in American history in 1981. In the next three years, respectively, we lost $38 billion, $91 billion, and $139 billion in revenue as cuts phased in on schedule. Reagan had to raise taxes in 1982, again in 1984, and again in 1987 in an attempt to stop the bleeding. Unfortunately he only raised taxes on the poor and middle class, so the additional income was paltry compared to the income lost when the rich kept their tax cuts. When Reagan signed the (excellent) Tax Reform Act of 1986, it raised tax revenues by 4%, not through raising taxes per se, but by closing loopholes, especially for corporations. Despite that, the initial cuts took their toll. We were significantly deeper in debt in 1988 than we were in 1980. The national deficit nearly tripled during his two terms in office.

So when you talk about all the tax cuts that Reagan made, you're ignoring all the times he raised taxes, as well as the time he effectively raised taxes by closing loopholes. When you talk about how cutting taxes raised revenue, you're simply factually incorrect. There is no magic; if you take in less money, you get just that.

Re:The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[lgw]

Reagan instituted the largest tax cut in American history in 1981. In the next three years, respectively, we lost $38 billion, $91 billion, and $139 billion in revenue as cuts phased in on schedule.

Federal revenue:
1981: 599
1982: 617
1983: 601
1984: 666

Just keep making shit up.

Scapegoat

[Kinthelt]

Sounds like a scapegoat to me. Shouldn't the medical personnel responsible for his presumed prescription then be prosecuted?

Re:Scapegoat

[oodaloop]

No one is saying he isn't responsible for his actions. They're going to review the use of the drug as a whole, and it's about time. Everyone I know who's gone (I'm a defense contractor, and many of my coworkers have gone to AFG) have had bad reactions to the drug and stopped taking it. Typical stories include violent horrible dreams every night until they stop taking it. Do you think they SHOULDN'T review the use of the drug, given its known side effects?

Re:Scapegoat

[Richard_at_work]

No, because the actual likelihood of someone having these side effects are so small, plus you have to be predisposed to those issues as well.

I've used Lariam on all my Africa trips without any issues, and my wife (who is a Doctor with the British NHS) has no issues taking it herself, despite knowing the side effect list.

Bear in mind that when a drug lists "side effects", it isn't because you are likely to actually get them, its because they legally have to - looking at the list of side effects on Paracetamol, one of the most widely used self-medicated pain killers in the UK, gives you such wierdness as "itching, swelling of the lips, tongue or throat, difficulty in breathing, unexpected bruising or bleeding, persistent tiredness, thrombocytopenia, hypotension, psychosis and disorientation." In reality, you aren't going to get any of those unless you are very very unlucky.

Re:Scapegoat

[Richard_at_work]

Actually, my wife has just said to me that paracetamol has more documented cases of causing psychosis as a side effect than Lariam...

Re:Scapegoat

[rndmtim]

It's true those are uncommon, but it's also true that temporary psychosis has been long associated with Lariam. I was traveling in quinine resistant areas of the Amazon and decided to chance it (I was riding a motorcycle, decided the slight chance of temporary psychosis while riding wasn't worth the also slight chance of getting resistant malaria.) I got a lot of warnings about Lariam in 2002. This has been a known possible side effect since the first Gulf War, and the reactions that were mentioned when I researched it then were often from soldiers.

Re:Scapegoat

[supercrisp]

US folks, on our side of the Atlantic Paracetamol goes by "acetaminophen" (Tylenol is popular brand). Just FYI for the non-Googling types.

Re:Scapegoat

[explosivejared]

Of course, I think the review should go through. Of course, I realize there is little chance this will exculpate Bales. I said as much. I was commenting on the politics of the situation. As evidenced by numerous posts in this very thread, it's very easy to read about this drug's role and immediately jump to conclusions about a conspiracy to allow these murders to go unpunished. If such a jump is so easy on slashdot, imagine what what conspiracies might spread in a more febrile environment like Afghanistan and how those conspiracies would further weaken Afghan belief in.

Still, it isn't an argument against doing the review and getting this drug away from soldiers. I merely mean to say that this is a rapidly deteriorating situation that threatens a complete breakdown of an already fragile trust between Kabul and the West.

Re:Scapegoat

[PerfectionLost]

If you read the descriptions of side effects for the drug it rapidly becomes apparent that the way Larium prevents malaria is by giving you all the symptoms of malaria.

I took Larium and had no bad side effects. Granted I wasn't in a warzone, but on vacation. I'm sure that has some added psychological protection to it.

Re:Scapegoat

[TheBilgeRat]

Are YOU a doctor who can speak to the physiological effects of a drug that alters brain chemistry combined with lack of sleep, near constant terror, and easy access to firearms? If not, then perhaps relating to your field trip to Africa to combat in Afghanistan isn't such a great analogy.

Re:Scapegoat

[HornWumpus]

Dude you better check yourself in.

You've taken this drug, are on /. and believe you have wife. You even have conversations with this 'wife'.

Re:Scapegoat

[geekoid]

Since they don't know if he was given the drug, aren't you being a little premature?

Also, 'side effects' happen with all drugs. You need to weigh the data about the side effects against the effects of not taking the drug.

Re:Scapegoat

[geekoid]

AH, well anecdote. So yes, lets based how we go forward on that, cause science is so mainstream.

Re:Scapegoat

[geekoid]

And my wife has told me I have the biggest cock she has ever seen.

So?

Re:Scapegoat

[geekoid]

ha, you were replying to yourself. Never mind I made a mistake.. wait this is /.

You made me make a mistake when you posted a reply to your own post.
Certainly not my fault for not reading who posted the comments. nope, no siree.

Re:Scapegoat

[sjames]

If he had a psychotic reaction to a prescribed drug (either alone or in combination with a brain injury or psychiatric injury from his service), then he truly ISN'T responsible.

There are several drugs that have been linked to psychotic reactions. This is apparently one of them. They do need serious review.

Re:Scapegoat

[Ihmhi]

No one is saying he isn't responsible for his actions.

Gonna go a bit "Bill Clinton" here, but it depends on your definition of responsible.

If by "responsible" you mean that he killed 17 people, well, that is very likely. In that sense, he is responsible.

If by "responsible" you mean that he made a conscious choice to start shooting civilians, that is very much in doubt. The effects of this drug and/or PTSD and/or other unknown factors could have factored in. Motivation kinda matters in things like this.

Re:Scapegoat

[Anonymous Coward]

My significant other spent a year in Africa with the UN not too long ago and this particular drug was know as the "can't sleep, the clowns will eat me" pill. He personally knew four people of assorted nationalities at his camp who had to get creative with how they timed their dosages so that they could always have someone keeping an eye on them while they sweated out the intense nightmares, waking dreams, and other assorted psych effects.

Re:Scapegoat

[Belial6]

I vote we blame the paracetamol.

Re:Scapegoat

[Thing 1]

I vote we blame the paracetamol.

I paracetamol we blame the vote! (Yes, that's something like how my dreams were...)

Re:Scapegoat

[RockDoctor]

According to my travel medication consultant (an ex-NHS doctor), they get between 10% and 20% of people who they put onto Larium reporting mental side effects, and in such cases strongly recommend the patient to immediately switch from Larium to one of the others. This of course is possible because to obtain adequate protection form Larium, you need to be taking it for several WEEKS before entering a malarial zone. So, if you know which country you're going to that far in advance, Lariam is an option. If you don't know until a couple of days before you're required to be on site ... it's not an option. (Which is why I get to keep a month or so of Malarone in my fridge and can collect more from the travel medics at the drop of a phone call.)

Within my business, Lariam has a terrible reputation for sending people psychotic in the field ... for as long as I've known people who use it.

So ... you and your wife tolerate Lariam well? For couples, the probability range I give above would suggest that between 64% and 81% of couples who use the drug will have your experience. Our anecdotes are not incompatible. I don't know how many people you routinely deal with who're using Lariam, but my anecdote is based on several dozen personal discussions over 20-odd years, and the comments of a travel medication consultant with experience of hundreds if not thousands of patients.

Incidentally, I'm told that Lariam is around 1/3 to 1/4 of the net cost of Malarone, which would explain it's continued existence in the pharmacopoeia. It's no use of course if you don't know when you're going to need someone to more accurately than a couple of weeks. When saving one day of person hire saves $1000-1500, then the price differential of Malarone over Lariam becomes negligible.

Malarone isn't without problems - it gives me the shits, to the extent of having filled out a "yellow card" . But I'll stick with that over the (unknown) to me hazards of Lariam. Or Doxy-whotsit, the third common alternative. If it works, don't fuck with it.

Returning to the substantive point ... giving Lariam to people with guns? Sounds worrying to me. I've now got something interesting to talk to my military-medic relative next time I see him.

Scapegoat

[Atheose]

This sounds like it will be a easy scapegoat for the entire massacre, rather than the fact that the individual was responsible, or the military in general.

Robert Bales is a fall boy

[Anonymous Coward]

Bales did nothing, and is getting blamed for what his platoon did. You cant shoot and burn 17 people and wake up with no memory of it, and multiple reports from witnesses say there were 15-20 men there.

Army coverup?

Army coverup.

Re:Robert Bales is a fall boy

[Moheeheeko]

Agreed. Also, how does somone shoot 1 person without the rest of the village getting the fuck out of Dodge? Something in the "Official" story doesnt add up.

Re:Robert Bales is a fall boy

[Anonymous Coward]

VTech? Not exactly the same, but one guy, 30+ people, with a _handgun_.

Re:Robert Bales is a fall boy

[Moheeheeko]

True, but if memory serves they were barricaded inside, and those are people who weren't in a country where people regularly get shot at and blown up........well at least not as much as Afganistan.

Re:Robert Bales is a fall boy

[what2123]

I don't doubt it in the lease bit. Much of the talk from vets has been a harsh resistance staying abroad and wanting to come home. Then you get this little bit of fun: http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/29/10927844-child-witnesses-to-afghan-massacre-say-robert-bales-was-not-alone

Re:Robert Bales is a fall boy

[buglista]

Usually I'd say this was paranoia, but given what they did after Haditha, I've really got no trust left in justice meted out by the US army.

Re:Robert Bales is a fall boy

[metrometro]

Citation needed.

Re:Robert Bales is a fall boy

[ehiris]

You're giving the Army too much credit. It's a fuckup caused by ignorance.

Re:Robert Bales is a fall boy

[geekoid]

The military didn't rule a way I think they should with my limited exposure to any of the evidence, clearly they cant be trusted.

You're thinking can't be trusted.

Re:Robert Bales is a fall boy

[geekoid]

hahaha. You don't really know the area or the people, do you?

I don't trust any eye witness reports.
a) Anti American groups will suddenly have eye witness report of things that didn't happen,. or exaggerate claims
b) You CAN have psychotic episodes with no memory. Sometime they can go on for very lng periods of time.

Army cover up?

I don't know, and neither do you.

Re:Robert Bales is a fall boy

[Anonymous Coward]

Neither can YOUR intelligence

Re:Robert Bales is a fall boy

[shutdown -p now]

Me thinks it would be much trickier to pull off in a country where pretty much every male has a weapon of some kind, and are not afraid to use it.

Re:Robert Bales is a fall boy

[shiftless]

I don't know...how does one women get attacked multiple times, stabbed, raped, all while her calls for help are heard (and ignored by) multiple people?

It's not so far fetched.

One thing you have to understand is Afghans don't live in houses like you or I. They live in big mud walled compounds, with a central courtyard containing smaller structures. They also aren't packed quite as tightly as your typical American city. This is out in the country, in a desert area. There might be hundreds of yards between you and a neighbor.

Given the facts, it's entirely plausible that he acted alone in killing all those people, and that nobody heard it or understood what was going on.

Re:Robert Bales is a fall boy

[Aighearach]

No, Afghanistan has a strong culture of private property. People live behind walls and iron gates, where their women can walk around without risk of being seen. People in these types of homes do not evacuate when there is a crisis, they lock their doors. Which may not be enough, if they are under military attack, but it the first natural reaction. It is the same in the US.

Re:Robert Bales is a fall boy

[Aighearach]

The BBC had early eye witness reports of "one or two" attackers. They then had third-party claims of witness reports claiming a larger attack, but they were not able to find these witnesses and interview them. It was speculated that they might have been witnessing the early US investigation, which did include a large number of troops and helicopters.

Re:Robert Bales is a fall boy

[Aighearach]

One of the witnesses claimed to have survived because his wives draped themselves over him in a big pile, and two of them were killed, but he survived. But he also lost a daughter.

Re:Robert Bales is a fall boy

[Anonymous Coward]

No doubt true, but he also had the benefit of an actual rifle. It may not seem like it, but it'd make a huge difference, both in his ability to aim and hit, but also in the deadliness of the wounds. If I had to pick the more unbelievable story, I'd go with VTech (and I'm not doubting that happened either).

Re:Robert Bales is a fall boy

[Anonymous Coward]

without the rest of the village getting the fuck out of Dodge?

Or the rest of the village pulling their AKs out of the cupboard and killing a solitary murderous infidel? (an opportunity you don't get when they walk around in groups)

Re:Robert Bales is a fall boy

[buglista]

Are you saying justice was done after Haditha, or are you just whining?

yay an excuse!

[Anonymous Coward]

Ill call it now: this war crime will go unpunished as ALL American war crimes do.

Oh it's the drugs fault? Never mind then.

[Anonymous Coward]

How convenient. It wasn't the brave, heroic soldier's fault who literally bursts with integrity and honour. It was all the bad, bad drug. How unfortunate! The mass murderer really is a golly good chap after all. What a relief! Now please stop questioning our morals, leadership and environment in which soldiers are trained and live. Nothing to see here, good citizen.

Re:Oh it's the drugs fault? Never mind then.

[Americano]

I know you don't want to admit this, but if the problem were "systemic" - i.e., caused by lax morals, bad leadership, and hostile environments endemic to the military - this type of event would be WAY, WAY more common. Tens and hundreds of thousands of deployed troops, and a small number snapping and doing things like this? They're the outliers, by a wide margin.

Re:Oh it's the drugs fault? Never mind then.

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously? You think the military politicos would rather the murders be blamed on a drug that they developed, inadequately tested, and gave to soldiers, than on one man inexplicably snapping?

Are you an actual retard? Think about for which of these possibilities it's easier for them to divorce themselves of any responsibility. One man goes mad. Military gives pro-psychotic drug to soldiers. One man goes mad. Military gives pro-psychotic drug to soldiers.

I mean, oh my god. Do you even think about what you write before you write it, or do you just react?

Re:Oh it's the drugs fault? Never mind then.

[Anonymous Coward]

Are they really outliers? Several witnesses said the guy who massacred all these people wasn't alone.

Plus, even videos and photos of US soldiers happily killing civilians or torturing prisoners leak regularly; and that's only what gets out.

Re:Oh it's the drugs fault? Never mind then.

[Americano]

Are they really outliers?

Yes. Tens or hundreds of thousands of troops deployed. At worst, a few dozen cases of people doing awful things. (Please note: "shooting someone" doesn't mean "atrocity," friend. Accidental killings do happen, as unfortunate as that may be.)

Violent crime (murder, rape, assault, robbery) in the US is about 400 incidents per 100,000 population in one year - 2010. Take 150,000 people from the population at random, and plunk them down somewhere, and you'd expect that number to be somewhere around 600 violent crime incidents per year.

Please show us even 100 separate cases of the 600 or so "expected" violent crimes from 2010? Then do the same for every year we've been there.

Re:I'm I in the wrong Blog?

[Anonymous Coward]

So I guess chemistry and biology aren't technologies anymore...

Re:I'm I in the wrong Blog?

[Kenja]

What's that? Drugged out solders killing civilians? Yawn. Wake me when there's news about how Apple or Microsoft is bad and Linux is good.

blame the drugs

[Anonymous Coward]

and then no person has to accept responsability

Can you say...

[Anonymous Coward]

Firefly? U.S military reavers in Afghanistan.

Re:I'm I in the wrong Blog?

[Anonymous Coward]

Adaption. IT, Technology and Science. This is somewhat scientific.

Then you get the periphery interests of /.ers. The IT field has a lot of college grads who tend to be more liberal leaning than the general populous. On the other hand the whole Open Source movement brushes up against libertarian-ism which tends to often brush up against US conservatism. So the occasional topic related to those will also slip in.

Nasty stuff

[Ion Berkley]

I can attest to this drugs potency, I've used it on two instances, and on one I suffered mightily the day and night after I took my weekly dose. Another of my friends was hospitalized after a psychotic episode on this drug. A girl I used to date used this drug for 2+ years during a posting to Sierra Leone in the military, apparently without any long term effect...but well beyond any duration it had been certified and tested for...however the flip side is that the initial brigade that was sent to Sierra Leone in a hurry were not on an anti-malarial and a large number came down with serious Malaria. Luckily there are much better alternatives in 2012, and I think it's somewhat weak to see this in the press...if it's being doled out to troops in this environment still then that is wrong and someone should get on it now, but this tabloid journalism and new culture of Mil/Gov leaks to the worthless press is ridiculous. Solve the friggin' problem, don't play some political game of buck passing in the headlines

Re:Nasty stuff

[Anne_Nonymous]

I used Lariam during an extended period of travel. My side effects consisted of extremely lucid and wonderful dreams. If the risks weren't so high, I'd recommend this as a recreational drug.

Re:Nasty stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

During a gap year trip to Africa a friend was seriously troubled by 'voices' telling him to slay me and fellow tent mate while we slept.

It was a year after we returned that I found out. I was livid. It's hard to believe that there were people who knew my friend, and of his access to plenty of large camping knifes, wanted to kill me, and they didn't think it was appropriate to let me know :/

It is deeply troubling they give this to men with guns :(

Re:Nasty stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe it's used frequently because it is relatively inexpensive. I've had friends with significant psychotic and sun sensitivity side-effects on the drug. Alternatively, I've used a newer one - Malerone - on a couple of occasions, which had no noticeable side effects. The downside is that the Rx for a a two-week exposure is well over $100.

Re:Nasty stuff

[The Gaytriot]

Had a classmate who was an Army veteran, it's only what he told me, but he said after taking the drug he became enraged and broke windows in his house, tore siding off, punched holes in walls for a good 3 hours. I figured there were probably others that reacted similarly to him on the drug, or who reacted poorly to it in some other way.

Re:Nasty stuff

[AnObfuscator]

I've also used it on a number of occasions (including some time in Sierra Leone), and I've only had mild side effects (some very, very strange dreams). However, I have seen others react very poorly, too. One of my friends contracted malaria and mono at the same time while in Guinea, and was dosed with massive quantities of lariam to treat it -- he had some serious psychological responses to it. Malaria really sucks, but so does this drug. BTW, when was your friend posted in Sierra Leone, and is he a Brit Para? I met a few of them when I was working for an NGO in Sierra Leone in 2001.

Re:Nasty stuff

[kbob88]

Yeah, I've used it for a few trips, and it does make you have really weird, bizarre dreams. Crazy stuff. I'm not sure I would go back on it. I didn't go psychotic or anything, but I'm a pretty even-keeled person. Anything that affects your brain that much could definitely have bigger consequences for someone who's a bit unstable to begin with.

Re:Nasty stuff

[TheCarp]

The interesting things is that this story was on NPR the other day, except, they reported that it was incorrect to imply that the massacre triggered the review... the review was in the works before the massacre.

So to still be characterising it as such, several days after its come out that this association isn't true definitely is tabloid journalism.

Re:Nasty stuff

[mindaktiviti]

I've used mefloquine before in India & Nepal. It gave me surreal nightmares on the night I would take the pill (once a week), and made things ever so slightly lucid, but that's it. On the warning note it says that it should only be taken by people who are mentally stable & secure and it can give you nightmares among other mental issues, but if you're a mentally strong person you should be fine.

Personally I wouldn't take it again even though I believe I am well in control of my mind & emotions, but the type of drug that you take depends on where you are going as different strains of malaria carrying mosquitos are resistant to different types of malarial drugs.

Re:Nasty stuff

[geekoid]

After drinking milk, I was rear ended at a stop sigh; clearly I need to stop drinking milk.

Re:Nasty stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

At least, stop drinking milk while driving.

Re:Nasty stuff

[sjames]

If you can establish a credible cause and effect that matches observation, such as horrible intestinal cramps caused you to stand on the brake and then you got rear-ended, then perhaps you SHOULD stop drinking milk.

Re:Nasty stuff

[StikyPad]

It's also true that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. The project may have been in the works for some time, but it's possible that now that it's deemed important, it's getting hurried.

Re:Nasty stuff

[codeAlDente]

Agreed, I'd compare the potency and overall effect to LSD or psilocybe mushrooms, but without the positive effects. Definitely made me feel like a strange and different person.

Re:Nasty stuff

[cffrost]

I used Lariam during an extended period of travel. My side effects consisted of extremely lucid and wonderful dreams. If the risks weren't so high, I'd recommend this as a recreational drug.

The tricyclic antidepressant Tofranil (imipramine) would make a very good replacement in that regard. The same goes for people suffering from the inefficacy (and/or sexual side-effects) frequently associated with SSRIs for the treatment of depression.

Lariam? Really?

[jholyhead]

Having known someone who suffered from Lariam induced psychosis some years ago, I find it shocking beyond belief that they would give this stuff to men with guns.

Whether Bales was suffering from such psychosis at the time should be considered secondary - the US military was giving its soldiers a drug that can lead to violent psychotic episodes. The person who made that decision needs to be escorted to the cell adjoining Bales'.

Re:Lariam? Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

Love all the comments re: this subject and how adamant they are about what "really" happened during the massacre. Educate, people. It helps you say less dumb fuck things. If Bales was on this drug there's HUGE reason to believe that it could have been almost EXCLUSIVELY responsible. What do I mean by EXCLUSIVELY? I mean that IF he WAS taking Larium, or a Mefloquine Generic, it is totally possible that it CAUSED him to act in a way completely foreign to how he would, and had, acted throughout the rest of his ENTIRE life. I mean that it's COMPLETELY PLAUSIBLE, based on MANY previously documented cases, that the drug CAUSED him to have a severe break with reality and murder all of these people.

Ironically, if he was taking it, and a full investigation reveals to the public the hundreds of serious, documented side-effects reported and case studies -- this story may become about ALL of the people who have lost their own lives (reported suicides) because of this drug and/or have taken the lives of others (controversial murders, including soldiers own WIVES). Wouldn't it be interesting if we learned that BALES = 17 dead, and ROCHE (pharmaceuticals)'Larium/Mefloquine Generics = 100s+ dead. IF that were the case, who would be more guilty? The man who took something he was told to, while knowing NOTHING about the dangers? Or the drug companies who continue to manufacture and sell this drug in bulk to the US govt who DO know there are SERIOUS issues? "(According to its own internal documents, Roche pharmaceuticals, Lariam's maker, has received over 3,000 reports of psychiatric problems associated with the drug, from nightmares, depression and hallucinations to paranoia, psychosis and aggression." Source, CBS). Roche claims the drug affects 1 in 10,000 adversely -- but that study defined "serious" through the narrow scope of people who ended up dead, or seriously debilitated/hospitalized. Another study was later conducted that widened the definition of "serious" side-effects to the broader term "disabling" side-effects. It showed 1 out of 140 people suffered from adverse reactions.

("It was confusion, it was disorientation, it was anxiety and panic attacks," says [Dr.] Clarke. "There were episodes in which people were clearly divorced from reality and indeed had unusual symptoms that could be described as psychotic." Their research confirmed the hunch. Not one in 10,000, but closer to one in a 140 suffered disabling side effects, defined as substantially disrupting their lives - the same kinds of side effects that Dr. Clarke had seen in his patients.)

How about a kid who took it before going to a yoga retreat and had to be flown home after his parents got a call that he had had a serious psychotic break. When he returned home he burned OFF his own pinky finger off with a lighter. Only to have no recollection of it later -- only regret and shame. Or how about a woman who was on a trip with her husband and took all of her clothes off in a tourist van yelling that people were trying to kill her? How about soldiers returning from war after being on sustained dosages and murdering their wives, running naked, and/or killing themselves? How about tour guides in Africa bluntly asking tourists why they would take the drug as they knew it was very much like LSD.

I'm not exonerating Bale or his actions, as I wasn't there, and know nothing about what really transpired. But IF Bale WAS on the drug it's an ENORMOUS factor that MUST be considered seriously. If he wasn't taking the drug, hopefully this story brings awareness to a subject that is truly UNBELIEVABLE when you really look at it. Why people continue to believe that any drug company has the ability to understand the sum total of human brain function, and prescribe drugs that can operate within that complexity -- to a consistently predictable level, across all strata of humans -- is beyond me. Are we really that fucking stupid? Take this pill and THIS will always happen and THAT never will? Fuck. When you get 3,000 fucking reports of bad shit occurring to "user

Re:Lariam? Really?

[Rich0]

Agreed. There is little value to society in punishing people for having adverse reactions to drugs, even if the reaction involved killing people. Punish people for the decisions they make, not for the results of those decisions. In this case the guy's only decision might have been to follow an order to take a required medication. Do we really think that was an "unlawful order" that should be disregarded?

Now, obviously all of this should be investigated. I'd just hate to see somebody punished simply so that we can say that we "did something about it" when if the drug is the root cause we might have not actually done anything to prevent a recurrence. From what I've read you could give this drug to your grandmother and she might mow down 10 people in a mall.

If the EPA hadn't banned DDT

[Anonymous Coward]

they might never have had to use the drug.

Law and Order

[Anonymous Coward]

Similar plot as an old "Law and Order" rerun that was on the other day.

Re:Law and Order

[AuralityKev]

It was SVU - and I swear I thought this story was a parody recap of that. Right down to it being an anti-malaria drug.

How about they review their entire process?

[Anonymous Coward]

US soldier goes on psychotic killing spree on civilians, the US Army evacuates that soldier to their country and the US government refuses to let this psycho face the law.

Compare and contrast to someone on non-US soil doing something not illegal and doing no damage. For five years the US government will INSIST that this person is extradited to face justice.

WORSE, the UK government lets them.

Possibly in case the US army personnel go psycho nutcase in the UK and spirited away.

(it's sort of the opposite of extraordinary rendition)

Re:I'm I in the wrong Blog?

[Anonymous Coward]

Its posted under science.

Re:I'm I in the wrong Blog?

[Anonymous Coward]

>I thought this site was about IT, and Technology? Since when has /. become side show for Foxnews and CNN?

lol...

Come my friend: http://boards.4chan.org/g/

Seriously.

Re:I'm I in the wrong Blog?

[JoeMerchant]

Since anyone with reasonably good karma can vote stories up to the front page now, /. content is going to start resembling Reddit more and more.

military/pharmaceutical complex

[Anonymous Coward]

Check out this documentary. Many if not most soldiers deployed are prescribed all kinds of nasty stuff.

BTW I just minted the term in my subject, I think, it's not from the linked video.

There was a radio story about this ...

[ninjagin]

The radio series "This American Life" did a story about a guy who traveled to India and lost his marbles on Mefloquine. Look for "Contents Unknown".

Re:There was a radio story about this ...

[geekoid]

No. it's story about a guy who lost his marbles, but ALSO happened to be on Mefloquine.

Not to be confused with Melfoquine; which will turn you blue~

Re:I'm I in the wrong Blog?

[jythie]

Everyone knows that if you can not use it to build a robot it isn't technology.

I would like to insist...

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

That we review the controversial word 'controversial'. It is horribly overused and misused.

Mefloquine isn't 'controversial'. It has well-known psychiatric side effects and well-known efficacy as an antimalarial prophylactic.

Re:I would like to insist...

[upside]

Its efficacy is a good reason not to use it as a prophylactic. The more it is used, the sooner you get resistant strains.

Yes and it has been known to cause hallucinations since it came out. A family friend had out of body experiences in the early 90s from taking it.

Re:I'm I in the wrong Blog?

[Anonymous Coward]

Since 9/11.

Useless, futile wars, ruined lives, for PROFIT!

[Paracelcus]

And they will give you poison that will drive you insane!

Yeah, like I would tell my grandson to join this mess!

Re:I'm I in the wrong Blog?

[metrometro]

Shorter parent: neurochemistry is BOOORING.

own experience

[Anonymous Coward]

From my own experience I can say that Lariam induces quite intensive dreams, but unfortunately I never got any hallucinations. Who needs LSD if legal alternative is available over the counter?

Re:I'm I in the wrong Blog?

[Anonymous Coward]

The phrasing is: 9/11 changed everything.

Apparently people didn't Never Forget.

Re:I'm I in the wrong Blog?

[Anonymous Coward]

Any drug is researched and tested for 11-17 years before it's sold. What kind of tests are done? Wait, maybe the testing phase includes giving it to crazy idiots with guns and watching what they do...

Not so fast

[Anonymous Coward]

This project has raked billions through the business of government. At the top of the pyramid, the elite who make the decisions do not care where the money comes from or where it goes -- what matters is that it passes through their hands, giving them a chance to exploit that cash flow for personal gain.

In conclusion, this project has only increased the net worth of the business of government. At the top of the pyramid, that is the entire goal. We know this because the balance sheet doesn't lie, and neither does history.

You're not in the business of government, are you?

Re:Not so fast

[geekoid]

YOU have no clue how the government works, do you?

Re:Not so fast

[rtfa-troll]

YOU have no clue how the government works, do you?

As we understand it:

• x works for Big Notebooks inc in the lobbying department
• x gets brought in by "conservative"* politicians with an unlimited mandate to preside over government notebooks committee
• x expresses shock at the dangers of "big government" and the inefficiency of career bureaucrats unable to even solve the notebook supply problems
• x identifies a need for $700 steel-plated anti-terrorist notebooks for schoolchildren and orders 200million to ensure a supply for the next 20 years
• x resigns in a "cocaine body part snorting" scandle the day after becoming eligable for his departmental pension
• it turns out that "resigning from the contract would be more expensive than continuing", so the government continues the contract, melting the non-safety standard covers down and selling them at a loss; this is despite the fact that they are the people which make the law

then, after a decent interval of at least 6 hours;

• completely unrelated to the previous contract, x gets a directorship in Big Notebooks inc
• x retires to the golf course, except for a few drunken days of directorship work once a year.

Please do explain where we have misunderstood, though.

* N.B. Note the quotes. I have no idea what "conservative" actually means, but these guys behave nothing like what the "conservatives" I know describe themselves as.

Since the EPA didn't ban DDT

[Anonymous Coward]

In what way did they have to use the drug at all?

Re:Since the EPA didn't ban DDT

[colinrichardday]

I'm guessing that the GP means that continued use of DDT would have eradicated the mosquito population, which would have eliminated malaria. Given that there is malaria, you might want to use ani-malarial drugs.

This drug is some killer shit.

[ehiris]

It's like the LSD they've been warning us about. What doses is the insanity available in?

It's so silly how they keep blaming drugs when the problem is due to mental disorders caused by shell shock, religion, and all sorts of other traumatic experiences we put people into for "Freedom".

Re:I'm I in the wrong Blog?

[JustOK]

But there was an episode on M*A*S*H about that. Where Sgt Klingon went nuts on an away mission to Koreadia

Incorrect

[geekoid]

The article is wrong. This study was ordered prior to the incident and is part of their regular reviews of all medical treatments.

Re:I'm I in the wrong Blog?

[Farmer Tim]

How are we supposed to be hunted down and killed by T-800s without chemistry and biology? Research into these fields is vital.

Oh, wait...

There's another drug that they used to use

[Anonymous Coward]

With some rather pleasant non-psychotic side effects...

I'm just asking, whatever the fuck happened to Gin and Tonic?

Re:There's another drug that they used to use

[sjames]

It's a matter of policy. We simply can't tolerate potentially enjoyable and affordable drugs for any reason. We like our medical treatments expensive, dangerous, and unpleasant thank you very much. 'Cause if it's not aversive, it can't be good for you.

PETAFILE

[Anonymous Coward]

You work for PETA, don't you?

breeders gonna breed

[Anonymous Coward]

How do you define intelligence tool?
Creativity? Processing ability? Or productivity even? Emotional sentience perhaps?
While I don't think humans are stupid, I'd rather not listen to a dumb ass claim he is smarter than all other living creatures on earth.

I to methfloquine in Africa

[Adam Appel]

After about 6 weeks, I stopped taking it. The 2-3 days after my once a week pill (dose) I was out of my mind agressive and slightly disconnected with reality. I chose to risk malaria when traveling around east africa over the side effects of the drug. Others with me felt the same way though their side effects were a bit diffrent. When I returned to the states I did a litte research and found hallucinations were a rare side effect and a few people had compleat permanant mental breakdowns. I thought there was a class actin lawsuits and it was removed from the market (not that that always effect the military)

Re:I to methfloquine in Africa

[Anonymous Coward]

Only the weak-minded have permanent mental break downs from any drug. I'm a highly experienced recreational drug user. I never have "bad trips" anymore. An "uncomfortable" trip will be a little disorienting, but my mind is well aware that everything will be back to normal when the drug is metabolized out. Generally, making it through a full-on DMT trip will make the hallucinogenic effects of any other drug moot.

People with weak minds get all wrapped up in the mental distortion and can't handle it. I see it all the time with inexperienced drug users. Pathetic. Apparently some people even claim "permanent" psychosis. I don't see how it is possible.

I also have the added benefit of never having a bad dream due to high tolerance to recreational drug use. Some dreams may be a bit unnerving, but never anything I would consider a nightmare anymore.

I'm not saying I was born this way. I'm saying that I've become strong-minded due to frequent use of recreational drugs. My mind is desensitized to disorienting effects and visualizations of impossible things. I'm thankful for this, because I don't "freak out" when something is unusual or not quite right.

I think study should be done on this.

Re:I'm I in the wrong Blog?

[zlives]

how about androids...

What did they expect?

[rocket rancher]

Did it occur to anybody besides me that violent behavior is something that *should* be encouraged in a soldier? I'm not seeing how a drug with these observed effects gets anybody off the hook for that Afghan massacre -- not Bales, not his squad mates, nor his commanders. The massacre was the result of failure to manage Bales, period. He's a trained killer, and one with a history of deceiving people for monetary gain predating his enlistment in the military. It also looks like the military ignored some red flags, including his propensity for violent confrontation, about him long before he deployed to Afghanistan, if the stories about his security clearance are even close to accurate.

How does the presence of this drug, with its documented behavioral side effects that is routinely supplied to soldiers, coupled with what looks like malfeasance on the part of the military in not acting on information that was publicly available on Bales, exculpate anybody for this senseless tragedy?

Re:What did they expect?

[Aighearach]

Did it occur to anybody besides me that violent behavior is something that *should* be encouraged in a soldier?

You've got some derp on your chin.

First hand account of Lariam Psychosis

[Anonymous Coward]

Check out the story from David Maclean here: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/399/transcript

The story starts about 2/3 of the way down the page. Just search for Lariam, and it will put you in about the right spot.

Hmm, neat

[Anonymous Coward]

Just last night my brother, who is a Professor at UMN Winona, mentioned he was doing a study of this drug with mice.

unfortunately Larium is cheap and effective

[trippytom]

This stuff is given to pretty much all Peace Corps Volunteers in malarial zones. Speaking from long term experience, it sucks ass. I made it about a year before I nearly lost the ability to sleep. I was then placed on Doxycyclene which worked ... never got malaria myself. The other option, Malerone, is like 10x as expensive. Neither Doxy or Mal is nearly as good ad malaria prevention, as have to be taken daily ISO weekly, so medical officers are hesitant to make a switch unless things have gotten pretty bad. I would say 50% of my fellow PCVs made it two years on Larium, and many blamed their psychological evacuations (wacky-vacs in Peace Corps lingo) at least in part on it. There is no way in hell anyone with access to firearms should be allowed within ten feet of this stuff.

Sensationalist crap...

[Anonymous Coward]

The side effects of mefloquine are well known. Thats why, in the UK at least, people are not prescribed it without having first tested its effects.

Sure some people have side-effects, but you have to remember it's one of the most effective anti-malarial drugs out there for those that don't. Which is the majority of people.

Two words

[Anonymous Coward]

Jacob's Ladder

malarone

[bcrowell]

There is no reason I know of for anyone to be using lariam anymore, except possibly for cost. Malarone(=atovaquone=proguanil) is much safer.

Re:malarone

[Anonymous Coward]

Then again, a friend of mine had psychotic episodes while taking malarone on a trip to india.

Re:I'm I in the wrong Blog?

[Anonymous Coward]

/g/ is bunk. It's all about toys like cell phones and gamer PCs. I showed up in there and started a real technology thread, inviting people to discuss real electronics like spectrum and network analyzers and stories from the electronics industry. Not a single person had anything to say other than "hurrr look at my iPhone durrrr."

Oh well, at least the folks in /k/ know that they're talking about...at night, at least.

-- Ethanol-fueled

Re:I'm I in the wrong Blog?

[shutdown -p now]

What's that? Drugged out solders killing civilians? Yawn. Wake me when there's news about how Apple or Microsoft is bad and Linux is good.

I have it on good authority that researchers in the labs that developed this drug were using Windows on some of their computers!

Re:Reading between the lines

[Belial6]

Yes, yes, yes. You think white people are evil. We get it.

wTF?

[ckaminski]

Wasn't this a Law & Order episode?

Hold who responsible?

[shiftless]

What, the same medical personnel who also forcibly issue Anthrax vaccine to evey soldier and deployed civilian, despite the health concerns surrounding it? None of these fuckers give a shit about the health of our troops. They are nothing more than walking chemistry labs to be experimented upon at will. If you want to start holding somebody responsible, you basically have to shoot the President of the United States in the head.

Hi NSA! Go fuck yourselves.

Caspian Sea Oil and Gas

[chrb]

Caspian Sea oil and gas unrecovered reserves are enormous, valued at over $10 trillion. Iran is currently a transit country for this, but the aim is to use Afghanistan instead. The Trans-Afghanistan Pipeline is a big part of this. Plans for an Afghan pipeline have been in the making for a long time, U.S. Congress testimony in 1998:

Mr. MARESCA. It's not going to be built until there is a single Afghan Government. That's the simple answer. We would not want to be in the situation where we became the target of the other faction. In any case, because of the financing situation, credits are not going to be available until there is a recognized government of Afghanistan.
Mr. BEREUTER. So you are not making any suggestions about the prospects of that or timing of that. It's just you are not going to move or it's not going to be moved from another source until that happens. That would be your judgment?
Mr. MARESCA. That's my judgment. We do of course follow very closely the negotiations which have been going on. We are hopeful that they will lead somewhere. All wars end. I think that's a universal rule. So one of these days this war too will end. Then I believe the pipeline will be secure.

That war (officially) ended thanks to the U.S. military, Afghanistan was (officially) unified under the Karzai government, and in 2002 Karzai signed the TAPI pipeline deal. Very fast given the complexity of such a deal. The U.S. has invested $0.5 trillion in the Afghan War so far, that's quite a lot just to bring bin Laden to justice. That $0.5 trillion didn't magically disappear - it was given to corporations which have profited handsomely from this war. Some stand to profit even more in the future from the ability to export Caspian Sea oil and gas through Afghanistan. And it also isolates Iran further.

Is it all a coincidence? It does seem awfully convenient...

Ratios matter

[erice]

Actually, my wife has just said to me that paracetamol has more documented cases of causing psychosis as a side effect than Lariam...

Other than pointing out that paracetamol also has potential for psychosis, what does this tell you? Paracetamol is vastly more widely used than Mefloquine. Even if the risk from paracetamol was only 1% of that from mefloquine, you could still see more documented cases of psychosis.

Anthrax shots

[CPTreese]

When I deployed to Iraq we were given the option of getting Anthrax vaccinations. As expected almost no one volunteered. About six months laterr we were "voluntold". I am now immunized against Anthrax if I touch it. If I breath Anthrax I'm still fucked. Totally worth the cancer I'm gonna get 15 years from now

Re:I'm I in the wrong Blog?

[cyberchondriac]

Worf did a cameo on M*A*S*H ? Oh wait, he was a Lieutenant.

Re:I'm I in the wrong Blog?

[Anonymous Coward]

We are building robots. We call them "supersoldiers" now, but we desensitize them to the point that they are just meat robots. Programming them properly is the problem.

Re:I'm I in the wrong Blog?

[Aighearach]

Since the Grand Taco was deposed.

Blame it on the drug

[abloylas]

Soldiers suffer from shell shock and go crazy doing what they do with or without drugs. It seems more convenient to blame "fuck ups" like these on a drug than on the simple fact that war causes horrible suffering and stress on both sides of a conflict and is expecially difficult to handle for soldiers who consciously or subconsciously feel they are occupying a country for dubious reasons. Blaming this one incident on a drug instead of on American foreign policy in general is easier for the party who is actually responsible for these atrosities.

If Macciavelli had known about drugs that "may" cause such behaviour, I'm sure he would have recommended the Prince give them to all soldiers, in case the shit hit the fan and you had to put the blame on something. Smart man - Macchiavelli.

Paging Carl von Clausewitz

[KingAlanI]

Sounds like Clausewitz' conception of war

Also, to refer to "It's about finding out who loses less" in buchner.johannes' post and "making it unacceptably costly for your opponent to resist your political will" in yours - make it more costly for them than for you.

Re:Paging Carl von Clausewitz

[lgw]

Not quite - it's fine if it's more costly for you than for them - if the political goal not being met is more costly still. Wars are always expensive in blood and treasure, but it can be true that the status quo is worse.

Something's fishy

[peppepz]

Drugged or not, how could he possibly walk out of a military complex, in a war zone, during the night, armed with war weapons, without anyone noticing him?

Re:I'm I in the wrong Blog?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry to be the party pooper...

Mefloquine was developed in the 1970s at the United States Department of Defense's Walter Reed Army Institute of Research as a synthetic analogue of quinine.

Re:I'm I in the wrong Blog?

[Anonymous Coward]

The quinine derivative drugs have been known to create psychiatric side effects for some time. It wasn't until 10-15 years ago that drug companies started warning people about this.

Re:I'm I in the wrong Blog?

[bdabautcb]

I think the Cylons might take issue with your definition of robot.

These new drugs are dangerous

[Anonymous Coward]

So how are these new fancy drugs are working out for you kids? In my days we only drank gintonic and I assure you our minds were completely ... oh wait.

The Administration's Sweating Profusely

[willpb]

Anti-malaria drugs like Mefloquine and Quinine are suitable for short stays in at risk areas. After a few months the side effects can become intolerable. The spread of malaria can also be mitigated by using mosquito nets, repellent and staying away from places with standing water. Treatment after exposure to malaria is usually quite effective. I think that if it turns out mefloquine was a factor in this incident, its widespread long-term use in these areas should definitely come under review.

I watch a lot of network news...

[ToddInSF]

And as usual, a story about a potentially dangerous drug goes compleatly ignored.

Big Pharma runs the show. I tried to tell you.