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DHS Will Now Vet UK Air Passengers To Mexico, Canada, Cuba
First time accepted submitter illtud writes "From April, UK passengers flying to Mexico, Eastern Canada or Cuba will have to submit their details at least 72 hours before boarding to the U.S. Department of Homeland Security for pre-flight vetting (as all passengers to the U.S. itself have had to do for a while). If they find against you, you're not getting on the plane, even though you're not going to the U.S. The Independent (UK quality newspaper) has the story."
This is an interesting step; in general countries are a lot more strict on entering their territory than leaving it. There are some circumstances where you'd want to control exit (if someone is fleeing law enforcement for some reason, avoiding child custody or the like), but I wonder if that's the intent of this policy shift or if it's something else.
For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
FUCK YEAH!
Guess you never seen the date of the article in question
was posted on "March 26th"
Laters Sol "Have you found the secrets of the universe? Asked Zebade "I'm sure I left them here somewhere"
... and here's how. "Oh, you won't comply? Guess you don't want your airline to have landing rights in the US, then."
The US, unfortunately, can get away with extortion. I live in Canada and have family in the United States, but this is seriously offputting. I think it's time to boycott travel to the US until they back away from this kind of insanity.
I'm a mature, naturally calm person never prone to profane outbursts, but the U.S. needs to fuck off.
This has been going on in Canada for years now. Even if you aren't landing IN the States, so long as you fly OVER you are subject to screening. My father spoke to someone at the airport one day who was not cleared by DBS, but still managed to get on his flight to the Carribean. His plane had mechanical problems and was forced to land in Florida. When he got off the plane he was met by law enforcement, who read him the riot act and took him directly to jail. He waited there overnight, then was put ona plane home.
Living in southern Ontario, it is pretty much impossible not to fly over the states, even for domestic flights. That means we are all screwed by US rules, living in another country. Our freedom is limited by their assinine rules.
We emerge from our mother's womb an unformatted diskette; our culture formats us. - Douglas Coupland
Keep in mind that we have air travel and border agreements as well, 3 of the aforementioned (canada the UK and mexico) all have particular agreements with the US, and Cuba well, you can't fly to cuba from the US directly anyway, so canadian flights for example must go around US airspace. But the US could make that a lot less pleasant.
It's another example of America shooting itself in the foot. There is already unease in the UK over what is widely seen as an unfair one sided extradition treaty. You can be extradited from the UK for doing something that is legal under UK law but in the USA but it doesn't apply the other way around. There has been a special feeling towards America in the UK but that is slowly changing with what is seen as heavy handedness. When the Brits start turning against the Yanks you know America is in trouble long term.
UK -> Canada never comes near US airspace.
The article starts out with...
Emphasis mine. This statement is what is supposed to re-assure us that it's ridiculous.
( Not to say that it isn't, but keep reading... )
Emphasis again mine. So here's the twist. If you fly through a particular nation's airspace, are you 'steering clear of' that nation's territory?
Wikipedia (don't worry, dictionaries appear to agree) states...
Emphasis once again mine.
Their airspace, their rules. Some flights not too long ago were probably barred from entering Polish airspace as well and had to skim along its borders for its flight.
( http://twitter.com/#!/flightradar24/statuses/128071958293266432 )
It's still ridiculous because it makes little sense. Not just because of the notion that you wouldn't actually set afoot in said territory, but because the few cases in which you might (such as an emergency requiring diverting to one of that nation's airports) also apply to many other routes that don't cross that airspace but still come close enough for the pilots to decide to, or be forced to, land there - security clearance issues or no security clearance issues.
Canada is now working very well with the USA thanks to the "Beyond the Border: A Shared Vision for Perimeter Security and Economic Competitiveness" declaration.
http://actionplan.gc.ca/eng/feature.asp?mode=preview&pageId=337
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
This shit right here is why I FUCKING HATE April Fools Day.
If I was an evil dictator, I would implement all of my worst schemes on April first and no-one would bat a fucking eye.
How inconvenient is it going to be if every other country in the world insists on vetting all US carrier passengers flying over THEIR airspace? As a US citizen you might have to have your flight plans checked by several different countries for a single flight. And some of those countries not particularly nice countries at that.
Enjoy your flight!
The people with the British accents are the bad guys.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
Never mind your emotional response at something you saw. What are the statistics?
Last I saw flying was still the safest form of transport. And the chance of a building being hit by hijacked plane is tiny. You're in way more danger driving, crossing the road, walking under ladders. etc.
These ever increasing security measures are not worth the inconvenience nor the cost.
This only applies to UK-departing flights so far?
Paris would have a few flights to Montreal, Madrid to Mexico City and Havana, no?
Anyway, as far as 'no-fly' lists go, I'd be shocked if UK and USA intelligence services weren't sharing databases already. This theatre just serves to piss off anyone buying tickets within 3 days of travel when existing controls such as immigration, checkin and boarding serve to validate one's passport electronically 3 times before boarding a flight.
you can't fly to cuba from the US directly anyway, so canadian flights for example must go around US airspace.
Flights between Canada and Cuba are not required to travel around US air space. That is not at all required.
One example is a recent Air Canada flight from Toronto to Havana. I'm not sure how long this link will work beyond today, but the flight clearly travels over
New York, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Florida.
As an American from the midwest who travels a lot, this is an even bigger encitement for me to travel less by plane. The biggest issue for me is convincing my employer to give me four days to drive to Utah and back instead of flying out on a Friday night and flying back on Sunday. If I can leave on Thrursday afternoon, conslidate meetings, leave Sunday morning, and return Monday afternoon, I might be able to convince them. The biggest issue from my perspective is that I drive my own car, I will not be responsible for any delays, and I now believe that I am in more control than the TSA over any hard information that I am bringing to my clients. I can't wait for the mandatory traffic stops while crossing state lines. I witnessed a smaller version of the same the other day, while driving north from Central Ave. in MPLS. When I got to Columbia Heights, there was a small cadre of police who appeared to be doing random stops and car checks on Central. I served my guy about ten blocks north, and then had to go back. I was prepared to call my lawyer, even though I had nothing close to illegal in my car. I drove past the checkpoint and was not pulled over. I'm suprised that the local cops didn't have my license plate because I have recently posted on slashdot and pull me over. F ying sucks, now taking a train or driving a car might suck just as much. Vote for the least worst option no longer works. Put your shit together and vote for some real people in the next election.
Koalas. They're telepathic. Plus, they control the weather. -Margaret
The issue has less to do with purpose (we all know the US is a paranoid quasi-police state with lots of international pull) and more to do with ability. The US does not have any jurisdiction over a flight from Heathrow to Halifax. Therefore they should not have the ability to screen those passengers.
This is like standing at the end of your driveway and demanding to know the personal details of anyone walking down the sidewalk before they even enter the street. Even if they're going to be walking on the opposite side of the street.
It's insane.
I suspect the flights to Canada have more to due with the fact that the border between Canada and the US is fairly porous. The US is concerned with people getting into Canada and then sneaking across the largely undefended border so in the past couple of years they have been stepping up coordination of border/immigration security. Since this is a bilateral effort, what I suspect is going on is that the Canadian government is telling airlines they have to clear their passengers with US's DHS.
Not a gag. This isn't an April fools trick. Read about this earlier in the week. It's just that Slashdot was late in reporting it. Just more US gov't exported bullshit.
in the laundry list of reasons I as a professionally trained engineer need to emigrate somewhere other than America.
we can have a constitution and a declaration that insist freedom for all and open arms to the tired weary who yearn to exchange nitrogen oxygen mixtures without oppression, sure. but what i find particularly offensive is that the zeal with which we trample over everything we proudly declare to despotic and non-despotic countries alike as "true democracy" in the pursuit of stopping terrorism.
Terrorism, for those unfamiliar with the vernacular as used in the american context, is the act which kills far fewer americans than diabetes and heart attacks "from sea to shining sea" every year. It is the mere utterance from whch blossoms carte-blanc policing not seen since the third reich of everything from trains to busses, your private automobile, and even the god damn Dodgers baseball stadium.
The irony of course, notwithstanding the staggaringly disproportional comparative death rates between disease and 'terror', is that we as a nation have trumpeted things like warrantless detention, search, and seisure as a cause against the american way for so long its become a 4x4 drum beat behind every political speach since taft.
part of me, as an american, yearns for this warrantless detention, that it may serve as a much needed nail in the coffin to which i have laid my patriotism. The other half would rather it not, for fear it would preclude my gainful employment and thus my credit, to which my entire life as an american is inextricably bound.
Good people go to bed earlier.
That depends on which city you are flying to. For example, part of Canada is actually south of Detroit, Michigan. Imagine that, if you want to go from Windsor, Ontario to the US, you have to travel north.
Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
you can't fly to cuba from the US directly anyway
You can now, actually. One of the first things Obama did was relax the travel embargo rules to allow exactly this.
You can go there without a license if you are:
1) is of a noncommercial, academic nature
2) comprises a full work schedule in Cuba
3) has a substantial likelihood of public dissemination.
For every other reason/visitor you need to get permission from the Department of the Treasury's Office of Foreign Asset Control.
If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits
Air travel is safe because of tremendous efforts exerted towards making the process safe.
That's really funny. Sad, but funny.
It doesn't hurt to be nice.
The article does not just leave that out, it contradicts it, and goes further, mentioning that it applies to flights that do not enter US territory, so do you have a citation that this only applies to flights that actually land in the US?
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
The term 'demand' seems to be a journalistic excess here. For example the Canadians actually passed cooperative legislation enabling this.
http://www.gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p2/2011/2011-10-12/html/sor-dors209-eng.html
As has the UK.
http://www.out-law.com/en/articles/2012/march/uk-opts-in-to-eu-us-pnr-agreement/
So this so-called 'demand' seems to have been handled by typical intergovernment negotiations.
http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/agents.shtm#secflght
Secure Flight Program: Overflight Overview and the Overflight Table for Third-Party Providers
http://www.tsa.gov/assets/pdf/SFP_Overflight_Overview_Table.pdf
Even though the flights may be landing in Canada or Mexico, there's still a good chance they will fly over U.S. airspace. As pathetic and cowardly the U.S. policies tend to be, they do have a right to control flights over their airspace.
There, I fixed it for you.
The amount of civil liberty and money pissed away at a way of dying that ranks right up there with shark attacks is very sad commentary on the character of the Americans these days. Far more worthy and braver Americans stormed beach heads where every other man was killed. Braver Americans faced bayonet charges during the civil and revolutionary wars. Vastly more worthy Americans faced down police lines during the civil rights movement and took beatings and risked death during the Civil Rights movement. Now look at us. We are a bunch of fucking cowards that can't hand over our civil liberties and cash fast enough to combat a threat that ranks well below lightening strikes and can't even be shown on the same scale as the threat of eating your fat ass to death.
Fucking pathetic.
I wish the cowards that mew to the politicians to save them from the scary terrorist at least had the decency to be cowards quietly and refrain from voting or traveling. The Americans who don't piss themselves at the oh-so-scary prospect of a 1 in a few million chance that our flight is going to be blown up would be ecstatic if the cowards would kindly fuck off.
Don't call this shit security, paranoia, or anything of that nature. Even calling it paranoia elevates this stupid shit far beyond what it is. Call this action and actions like it what it is... Cowardice. The Americans are acting like a bunch of cowards.
As a world traveler, I tried to get permission to travel to Cuba purely for tourist reasons. I explained that I would be staying with a friend (not family), and would be spending under $100 USD while in Cuba. Denied by Dept of State AND Dept of TOFAC.
The workaround? If you want, you can fly to Cancun or other Mexican cities and hop a short flight to Havana, without a Cuban passport stamp ever hitting your passport. Its almost as silly as the TSA itself.
Also, how safe would someone be from a coordinated suicide attack on TSA screening checkpoint lines? Not at all. Assume ~50 ppl in switchback lines at a checkpoint, 3-5 checkpoints per terminal, 3 terminals per airport (at least). With very little effort, a group of people could kill more than what took place on 9/11. Don't believe you can coordinate on that scale without being caught? Look at the Indian massacare a terrorist group effected several years ago.
We hit the diminished returns part of the curve a long time ago, way before getting groped in public and body scanners.
they only take the piss if it's in larger bottles. 100ml at a time should be fine.
rewriting history since 2109
American tourism is bombing, tourist industries are crashing, income is burning out and management are exploding.
I think you've overloaded the entire NSA internet monitoring apparatus with one single post. Good job!
This applies to Canada from the UK, if you had a brain and ever got out of your mothers basement you would know that you fly to the American continent via a northern route even if you got to go to the South of USA. Now, Canada is WHERE on the American continent? Why would you fly PAST Canada into the US on your way to Canada?
This is NOT about passing over a country or landing at an airport, this is about a flight that doesn't cross US territory and the US demanding to have anything to do with it. These UKCanada flights won't even appear on US traffic control radar screens.
It shows just how much of a control freak the US has become and how of a lapdog the UK is.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
The UK is a sovereign country, sure, but Canada is more like the 51st state.
ummm, no. we are not.
He is right, silly AHuxley. Thinking the UK is a sovereign country. The correct term is vassal state.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
They can't deny boarding to a passenger, but they can tell an airline that doesn't deny boarding in the UK when the US government requests it that none of their planes will be allowed to land in the USA in the future. I don't know of any airliners that fly between the UK and Canada that do not also operate flights into the US, so this would be pretty much guaranteed to enforce compliance.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
My alternative is to stop ratcheting up the pointless security theatre.
Or wait for April Fool's day to wear off.
Sadly, the article is dated 26th of March. It was also shared on Twitter and commented on that day.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
In my last trip to Dominique republic from Europe I made the bad decisions to chose a flight with transit connection in Miami. Even being a transit connection we were photographed, finger printed and had to fill up exhaustive forms. It took 3 hours to get to the connection flight! Almost lost it.
Never again fly through the US.
For the first time in my adult life, I am truly ashamed to be an American.
I bet it would only work for one year.
Well, unless people are really stupid... okay, never mind.
I am not really here right now.