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DHS Will Now Vet UK Air Passengers To Mexico, Canada, Cuba
First time accepted submitter illtud writes "From April, UK passengers flying to Mexico, Eastern Canada or Cuba will have to submit their details at least 72 hours before boarding to the U.S. Department of Homeland Security for pre-flight vetting (as all passengers to the U.S. itself have had to do for a while). If they find against you, you're not getting on the plane, even though you're not going to the U.S. The Independent (UK quality newspaper) has the story."
This is an interesting step; in general countries are a lot more strict on entering their territory than leaving it. There are some circumstances where you'd want to control exit (if someone is fleeing law enforcement for some reason, avoiding child custody or the like), but I wonder if that's the intent of this policy shift or if it's something else.
For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
FUCK YEAH!
Guess you never seen the date of the article in question
was posted on "March 26th"
Laters Sol "Have you found the secrets of the universe? Asked Zebade "I'm sure I left them here somewhere"
Enforcement would consist of the airlines in question not being allowed to fly into the U.S.
I bloody hope this is an April 1st post! I already hate the US Govt - this is taking the piss.
... and here's how. "Oh, you won't comply? Guess you don't want your airline to have landing rights in the US, then."
The US, unfortunately, can get away with extortion. I live in Canada and have family in the United States, but this is seriously offputting. I think it's time to boycott travel to the US until they back away from this kind of insanity.
This is either an April fool's joke or an act of war against Cuba, Canada, Mexico and the UK.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I'm a mature, naturally calm person never prone to profane outbursts, but the U.S. needs to fuck off.
This has been going on in Canada for years now. Even if you aren't landing IN the States, so long as you fly OVER you are subject to screening. My father spoke to someone at the airport one day who was not cleared by DBS, but still managed to get on his flight to the Carribean. His plane had mechanical problems and was forced to land in Florida. When he got off the plane he was met by law enforcement, who read him the riot act and took him directly to jail. He waited there overnight, then was put ona plane home.
Living in southern Ontario, it is pretty much impossible not to fly over the states, even for domestic flights. That means we are all screwed by US rules, living in another country. Our freedom is limited by their assinine rules.
We emerge from our mother's womb an unformatted diskette; our culture formats us. - Douglas Coupland
Keep in mind that we have air travel and border agreements as well, 3 of the aforementioned (canada the UK and mexico) all have particular agreements with the US, and Cuba well, you can't fly to cuba from the US directly anyway, so canadian flights for example must go around US airspace. But the US could make that a lot less pleasant.
Even though the flights may be landing in Canada or Mexico, there's still a good chance they will fly over U.S. airspace. As annoying and paranoid the U.S. policies tend to be, they do have a right to control flights over their airspace.
If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
It's another example of America shooting itself in the foot. There is already unease in the UK over what is widely seen as an unfair one sided extradition treaty. You can be extradited from the UK for doing something that is legal under UK law but in the USA but it doesn't apply the other way around. There has been a special feeling towards America in the UK but that is slowly changing with what is seen as heavy handedness. When the Brits start turning against the Yanks you know America is in trouble long term.
The article starts out with...
Emphasis mine. This statement is what is supposed to re-assure us that it's ridiculous.
( Not to say that it isn't, but keep reading... )
Emphasis again mine. So here's the twist. If you fly through a particular nation's airspace, are you 'steering clear of' that nation's territory?
Wikipedia (don't worry, dictionaries appear to agree) states...
Emphasis once again mine.
Their airspace, their rules. Some flights not too long ago were probably barred from entering Polish airspace as well and had to skim along its borders for its flight.
( http://twitter.com/#!/flightradar24/statuses/128071958293266432 )
It's still ridiculous because it makes little sense. Not just because of the notion that you wouldn't actually set afoot in said territory, but because the few cases in which you might (such as an emergency requiring diverting to one of that nation's airports) also apply to many other routes that don't cross that airspace but still come close enough for the pilots to decide to, or be forced to, land there - security clearance issues or no security clearance issues.
Canada is now working very well with the USA thanks to the "Beyond the Border: A Shared Vision for Perimeter Security and Economic Competitiveness" declaration.
http://actionplan.gc.ca/eng/feature.asp?mode=preview&pageId=337
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
It's still very, very scary: rttnews.com .
This shit right here is why I FUCKING HATE April Fools Day.
If I was an evil dictator, I would implement all of my worst schemes on April first and no-one would bat a fucking eye.
They just say the flight that are not vetted cannot enter us airspace. London to havana doesn't really have to enter US airspace.
Neither does London to Mexico. Its just quicker and more fuel efficient that way. The US wont get that info
from Cubana airlines so its kinda pointless to ask from the other airlines.
Any flight to London to Toronto flies over New York and Boston so yeah anyone on a flight that
flies over the US northeast SHOULD be vetted.
Yeah, they can do that. But the US can't "deny boarding" to a passenger at a UK airport.
The people with the British accents are the bad guys.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
I would love to see a US court enforce this.
No courts are required. The airlines have already complied - it happens fast when you threaten to shoot down their planes. Don't you remember this flight? That is the whole point of what is happening - the US government now thinks it can side-step that whole pesky "legal system" by killing people with drones, or enforcing arbitrary "regulations" as if they were laws because they are done overseas. Scary, but people refuse to wake up.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
They can deny permission in accordance with the relevant regulations, and the airline would be violating that regulation in the same way that a U.S. airline representative would be violating regulations by allowing a person who has been denied boarding to board a flight in the U.S. anyway. This is a legal barrier with legal definitions, not a physical barrier with physical ramifications. The argument seems sort of semantic.
Self contradicting article. Summary says "even for flights hundreds of miles from American airspace" and then the article says "air routes that over-fly US airspace". So which is it?
... and in the DRM, bind them.
Fear-mongering is bigger business than war-mongering these days.
This only applies to UK-departing flights so far?
Paris would have a few flights to Montreal, Madrid to Mexico City and Havana, no?
Anyway, as far as 'no-fly' lists go, I'd be shocked if UK and USA intelligence services weren't sharing databases already. This theatre just serves to piss off anyone buying tickets within 3 days of travel when existing controls such as immigration, checkin and boarding serve to validate one's passport electronically 3 times before boarding a flight.
you can't fly to cuba from the US directly anyway, so canadian flights for example must go around US airspace.
Flights between Canada and Cuba are not required to travel around US air space. That is not at all required.
One example is a recent Air Canada flight from Toronto to Havana. I'm not sure how long this link will work beyond today, but the flight clearly travels over
New York, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Florida.
As an American from the midwest who travels a lot, this is an even bigger encitement for me to travel less by plane. The biggest issue for me is convincing my employer to give me four days to drive to Utah and back instead of flying out on a Friday night and flying back on Sunday. If I can leave on Thrursday afternoon, conslidate meetings, leave Sunday morning, and return Monday afternoon, I might be able to convince them. The biggest issue from my perspective is that I drive my own car, I will not be responsible for any delays, and I now believe that I am in more control than the TSA over any hard information that I am bringing to my clients. I can't wait for the mandatory traffic stops while crossing state lines. I witnessed a smaller version of the same the other day, while driving north from Central Ave. in MPLS. When I got to Columbia Heights, there was a small cadre of police who appeared to be doing random stops and car checks on Central. I served my guy about ten blocks north, and then had to go back. I was prepared to call my lawyer, even though I had nothing close to illegal in my car. I drove past the checkpoint and was not pulled over. I'm suprised that the local cops didn't have my license plate because I have recently posted on slashdot and pull me over. F ying sucks, now taking a train or driving a car might suck just as much. Vote for the least worst option no longer works. Put your shit together and vote for some real people in the next election.
Koalas. They're telepathic. Plus, they control the weather. -Margaret
The issue has less to do with purpose (we all know the US is a paranoid quasi-police state with lots of international pull) and more to do with ability. The US does not have any jurisdiction over a flight from Heathrow to Halifax. Therefore they should not have the ability to screen those passengers.
This is like standing at the end of your driveway and demanding to know the personal details of anyone walking down the sidewalk before they even enter the street. Even if they're going to be walking on the opposite side of the street.
It's insane.
I suspect the flights to Canada have more to due with the fact that the border between Canada and the US is fairly porous. The US is concerned with people getting into Canada and then sneaking across the largely undefended border so in the past couple of years they have been stepping up coordination of border/immigration security. Since this is a bilateral effort, what I suspect is going on is that the Canadian government is telling airlines they have to clear their passengers with US's DHS.
If the US wishes to set up some anti terror coalition and get countries to willingly cooperate in a joint effort, that's great. But the US doesn't have the right to demand flight information from passangers flying between totally different countries. Sure, they can request it... they can ask really nicely. But they can't demand it.
Further, 72 hours is way too long. The nofly list should be something that can be checked by computer instantly. If my credit card can be scanned and my account adjusted then tell me why the no fly list can't be checked automatically? If the provided data doesn't match the no fly list data then let them through. Sure, bad people might lie about their information or have fake IDs but the 72 hours isn't going to help catch those people in any case. So why the delay?
I suspect the TSA's software is garbage. Set the system up for easy polling and so every registered airline can automatically file their passenger list before take off. The system should be so fast that no delay is required.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
This is a common sense issue that those having (here he goes again) plaques on the wall don't (want to) understand. If there is enough fuel on that aircraft to reach those destinations, to the terrorist that means there is enough fuel to fly into a building somewhere in the USA.
underfuckingstand you educated and enlightened?
==//==
Common sense? Common sense says that hardened cockpit doors and increased screening of passengers has made a repeat of the 9/11 attacks nigh on impossible. What is more, as soon as someone tried to break into the cockpit, passengers as well as crew would incapacitate those individuals lickety split.
Is there a red under your bed? A little yellow man in your head? Paranoia will destroy you, friend.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
The sad thing is I actually considered this story possible with how the US strongarms the rest of the world in general.
in the laundry list of reasons I as a professionally trained engineer need to emigrate somewhere other than America.
we can have a constitution and a declaration that insist freedom for all and open arms to the tired weary who yearn to exchange nitrogen oxygen mixtures without oppression, sure. but what i find particularly offensive is that the zeal with which we trample over everything we proudly declare to despotic and non-despotic countries alike as "true democracy" in the pursuit of stopping terrorism.
Terrorism, for those unfamiliar with the vernacular as used in the american context, is the act which kills far fewer americans than diabetes and heart attacks "from sea to shining sea" every year. It is the mere utterance from whch blossoms carte-blanc policing not seen since the third reich of everything from trains to busses, your private automobile, and even the god damn Dodgers baseball stadium.
The irony of course, notwithstanding the staggaringly disproportional comparative death rates between disease and 'terror', is that we as a nation have trumpeted things like warrantless detention, search, and seisure as a cause against the american way for so long its become a 4x4 drum beat behind every political speach since taft.
part of me, as an american, yearns for this warrantless detention, that it may serve as a much needed nail in the coffin to which i have laid my patriotism. The other half would rather it not, for fear it would preclude my gainful employment and thus my credit, to which my entire life as an american is inextricably bound.
Good people go to bed earlier.
Nope, North American Union, fools...
What is this extant "North American Union" to which you're referring (if it doesn't exist at this point in time, it has nothing to do with this case), and when did Cuba become part of it?
I would like to see what the airlines do when they're taken to an EU court for breach of EU privacy laws.
If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
you can't fly to cuba from the US directly anyway
You can now, actually. One of the first things Obama did was relax the travel embargo rules to allow exactly this.
You can go there without a license if you are:
1) is of a noncommercial, academic nature
2) comprises a full work schedule in Cuba
3) has a substantial likelihood of public dissemination.
For every other reason/visitor you need to get permission from the Department of the Treasury's Office of Foreign Asset Control.
If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits
The article does not just leave that out, it contradicts it, and goes further, mentioning that it applies to flights that do not enter US territory, so do you have a citation that this only applies to flights that actually land in the US?
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/agents.shtm#secflght
Secure Flight Program: Overflight Overview and the Overflight Table for Third-Party Providers
http://www.tsa.gov/assets/pdf/SFP_Overflight_Overview_Table.pdf
Fuck You.
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
The UK is a sovereign country, sure, but Canada is more like the 51st state.
ummm, no. we are not.
The differences may be difficult to see sometimes, but they are there
The two Countries have had many differences, but do tend to get along on important stuff.
Go Obama!
As a world traveler, I tried to get permission to travel to Cuba purely for tourist reasons. I explained that I would be staying with a friend (not family), and would be spending under $100 USD while in Cuba. Denied by Dept of State AND Dept of TOFAC.
The workaround? If you want, you can fly to Cancun or other Mexican cities and hop a short flight to Havana, without a Cuban passport stamp ever hitting your passport. Its almost as silly as the TSA itself.
Enforcement would consist of the airlines in question not being allowed to fly into the U.S.
Sure, no problem.
I once was seriously considering moving to the US, now I don't even have any plans to visit.
http://marriedmansexlife.com/
I'm not the same AC, but I was flipping out at bush. Obama is starting to make bush look like a moderate. Seriously. And before you go on about all that tea baggin crap, I've never voted republican in my life, I voted for obama for senate and was seriously disappointed when he started voting for every right wing thing he could.
How can you defend someone who's claimed the right to kill an american citizen without trial, without a hearing, anywhere in the world.
Or someone who voted for(because he had no choice HA), and is now STILL defending warrantless wiretapping.
SOPA anyone? Private Copyright courts?
Take your right wing authoritarian bullshit back to your naive yuppies who think being a liberal is about liking abortions.
they only take the piss if it's in larger bottles. 100ml at a time should be fine.
rewriting history since 2109
You mean NAFTA? Since when did that free trade agreement include Cuba - a country the United States have a trade embargo against?
The Zetas would be nada without the lucrative market driven by the 40-year-old American War on Drugs. Drugs go north, guns go south (because of the American "freedom" to sell guns to criminals).
yah, ya gotta post on reddit AND facebook to be a real agent of change.
rewriting history since 2109
The US says it's directly involved in flight scheduling, so it logically follows that they are directly involved in flight scheduling, and that there is no violation of privacy.
rewriting history since 2109
No? You must be one of the lucky ones without oil.
Deleted
Isn't it time that the rest of the world started to stand up to the American nazi police state? I certainly don't want them having my details, particularly given that they are grossly incompetent, and can randomly deport individuals from my country (UK), without any due process or evidence - even when they have committed no crime here. I wouldn't fancy anyones chances with the US justice system, which appears to be grossly corrupt, and heavily politicised. Even supreme court judges in the United States are political appointments. I wouldn't be surprised if the US regime was randomly snatching innocent individuals, and sticking them in the primitive inhumane hells that are US prisons (incidently, the US has also been kidnapping foreign nationals, on foreign soil). What a rotten system. I'm glad I don't live there. Frighteningly the tentacles of US corporate totalitarianism are furthering their reaches.
There is never any justification for the increase in the size of the security apparatus of a state. The moment that you begin to use 'security' to justify restriction of peoples' liberties, is the moment that terror/your enemies have won, and taken away your democracy. You now live in a totalitarian state. The United States is long past this point. US democracy is long dead and buried. Welcome to a hell of your own making. It is going to take a long time for America to recover from its current state. If it ever can, it will be both poor, and divided. The Soviets bankrupted the United States. The US was just able to borrow more, for longer, than the Russians were, due to the unique position of the dollar as a reserve currency. For the United States, the debt is stupendous, and GDP massively artificially inflated by the extreme borrowing. Recovery will be long and difficult, as creditors strip the US bare (will the US regret supporting the rotten world bank/IMF policies then, as americans riot in the streets?)
This applies to Canada from the UK, if you had a brain and ever got out of your mothers basement you would know that you fly to the American continent via a northern route even if you got to go to the South of USA. Now, Canada is WHERE on the American continent? Why would you fly PAST Canada into the US on your way to Canada?
This is NOT about passing over a country or landing at an airport, this is about a flight that doesn't cross US territory and the US demanding to have anything to do with it. These UKCanada flights won't even appear on US traffic control radar screens.
It shows just how much of a control freak the US has become and how of a lapdog the UK is.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
The UK is a sovereign country, sure, but Canada is more like the 51st state.
ummm, no. we are not.
He is right, silly AHuxley. Thinking the UK is a sovereign country. The correct term is vassal state.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
So I'm flying from London to Halifax Nova Scotia, I'm not going over US airspace. It might be an important trip, I might be emigrating (and so leaving my job, and expected to start a new one in Canada) and have a specific time window during which I have to be in the country by, both for a future employer and due to the way the emigration rules work.
I wont be told until I arrive at the airport and try to get on the plane if someone with my name is on the another countries do not fly list. A country that I've not been to ever. The international flights sell out, I have to book in advance and they cost an arm and a leg.
What are you supposed to do if you get turned away? Didn't a US senator spend ages trying to get off the do not fly list because someone with a similar name was on it? What chance do I have to my name off that list in any reasonable timescale (or even at all)? Remember that I'm not flying over or going to the US, but the flight from the UK to Halifax is covered by this. The only option seems to be to book a cheap hotel and rush around searching for a gap on the next cargo shipping vessel (people think they are cheaper but if you check they are expensive as you're essentially paying for accommodation for a few weeks) and hoping it leaves within the next month before your money runs out?
Have a good time with the Zetas, you subhuman cunt! Stay south of the border. We don't want you.
Woah! What he said was a reasonable point of view - there is no need to be a potty mouth just because you don't like it, you just end up making people think that citizens of the USA are knee jerk trolls.
They can't deny boarding to a passenger, but they can tell an airline that doesn't deny boarding in the UK when the US government requests it that none of their planes will be allowed to land in the USA in the future. I don't know of any airliners that fly between the UK and Canada that do not also operate flights into the US, so this would be pretty much guaranteed to enforce compliance.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Demand the same information for flights within the USA that pass within 150 miles of their borders ? If they did - would the USA oblige ?
Or wait for April Fool's day to wear off.
Sadly, the article is dated 26th of March. It was also shared on Twitter and commented on that day.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
ARRRRGGGGGHHHH!
Epic troll rage.
OK - I bit, and it got me - but only because the reality isn't that far away.
nice one, unfortunately.
..........FULL STOP.
In my last trip to Dominique republic from Europe I made the bad decisions to chose a flight with transit connection in Miami. Even being a transit connection we were photographed, finger printed and had to fill up exhaustive forms. It took 3 hours to get to the connection flight! Almost lost it.
Never again fly through the US.
For the first time in my adult life, I am truly ashamed to be an American.
You mean a biased, lying, window-peeping rag?
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
Sadly no, the EU agreed to send details of all flights to the US, including many flights that go nowhere near that country.
It was a stupid fucking decision but it was made by unelected cunts that deserve taking out and shooting. And yeah, Nottinghamshire police force, I'm standing by that statement. I know the law says they can't be, so I know that nobody will, but that doesn't change the fact that the cunts involved deserve it.
Seems to me that the UK should forbid our carriers from complying with this.
I bet it would only work for one year.
Well, unless people are really stupid... okay, never mind.
I am not really here right now.
I moved here a few years ago, and I'm looking to leave again. Wanting to bring ones wife along makes that a much more complicated process.
Not before the same border crossing restrictions as what exist between the USA and Canada are implemented among the 50 states you currently have.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
I would think threatening to shoot down any of their airline's planes in this matter would be overkill, not to mention probably would be considered almost an act of war.
More than likely, the USA probably told them that their airlines would be denied entry into the USA.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Imperialist B******, with every passing day there is more reason to hate the US, and they (the US) wonder why they are so hated.
Countries yes, but states no.
If you were actually entering US airspace then fine - the US gets to set its own rules. However explain to me how you enter US airspace between Calgary and London. I have taken this flight many times and the closest you come to US airspace is when you take off/land in Calgary. At no point are you any closer than that and since you fly over Edmonton and Red Deer on the way in if you needed to divert from Calgary you would end up there not over the US border like you might for Vancouver which is extremely close to the border.
If the UK and Canadian governments want to collaborate with the US and ban people on the US no flight list (on the basis that we don't want people likely to be linked to terrorism on our planes any more than they do) then that's fine - but it should be our choice, not the US', if the flight has no reasonable probability of going into US airspace during normal operation. I was hoping that this was an April Fool but since the article is dated 26th March I sadly think it has to be true.
And here I thought the Bush administration was drunk with power. I thought Obama was smarter than Bush and would at least know where US law was applicable, you would almost think Obama has the belief that American law is supreme across the globe.
Time to offend someone
They say they are involved, so they must be. It's logic, by Modus Potus.
rewriting history since 2109
How can you defend someone who's claimed the right to kill an american citizen without trial, without a hearing, anywhere in the world.
How can you defend someone who's claimed the right to kill anyone without trial, without a hearing, anywhere in the world.
I mean, honestly, do you really want to be telling the rest of the world that it's only American citizens who deserve "due process" before being killed by the US government? And Obama does seem to be rather proud of his troops' midnight raid that killed one somewhat infamous non-citizen, then dumped his body at sea. This action, plus the favorable response it got from much of the US population, has pretty much ended any pretense the US has for being the civilized, law-and-order country that it has long claimed to be.
(Now if I could only figure out someway to turn this into an April Fools story ... ;-)
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
Canada? I think he means North Montana.
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
I think you may be double counting some of those countries! The people who have lived on the Falkland islands for 180 years might say that South Georgia and South Sandwich islands are not that independent, and you have France in there three times (St Pierre et Miquelin, french guyana and guadalupe all send deputies to the french parliament and are EU citizens) :-)
It's more like standing at the end of your driveway and demanding that the driver of any bus that passes by gives you the personal details of all his passengers - and the bus driver complying. Whatever his passengers want.
The airlines are not, as far as I can see, legally obliged to comply with the U.S.'s requests. But they can choose to, and apparently, they are. The only choice passengers get in the matter is not to book such flights. If you book such a flight, you are agreeing to let the airline pass your information to the U.S. government.