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US Journalists Targeted By Pentagon Propaganda Contractors

Jeremiah Cornelius writes "While conducting investigative reporting on civilian contractors in the Pentagon's "InfoOps" Internet propaganda operations, two reporters found themselves the subject of a highly targeted, professional media manipulation effort. Reporter Tom Vanden Brook and Editor Ray Locker found that Twitter and Facebook accounts have been created in their names, along with a Wikipedia entry and dozens of message board postings and blog comments. Websites were registered in their names. Some postings merely copied Vanden Brook's and Locker's previous reporting. Others accused them of being sponsored by the Taliban. 'I find it creepy and cowardly that somebody would hide behind my name and presumably make up other names in an attempt to undermine my credibility,' Vanden Brook said. If these websites were created using federal funds, it could violate federal law prohibiting the production of propaganda for domestic consumption."

46 of 232 comments (clear)

  1. It could violate federal law by ATMAvatar · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Since when has violating the law deterred the actions of our government? With the wiretapping of people without a warrant, search and seizure of anyone unfortunate enough to require air travel or border crossing, detainment of individuals without due process, to instigating of torture of war prisoners, I'm somewhat surprised we don't hear more stories like this.

    --
    "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
    1. Re:It could violate federal law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In a case like this though, even if it was government funds used to do the work, it will probably come out that it was done by "overly aggressive independent contractors" who "overstepped their bounds" and not by government mandate. Whether that is true or not is a different story - and I won't presume to guess if it was actually done with government knowledge or not. We'll need a lot more facts before that could be determined. However the odds that anyone directly employed by the government will take a fall for it are pretty low.

    2. Re:It could violate federal law by pitchpipe · · Score: 5, Informative

      Since when has violating the law deterred the actions of our government?

      The Constitution has become a piece of paper that the government uses to wipe the asses of the corporations. All of our laws supposedly spring from this document, so why would they feel any different about these 'lesser' laws?

      --
      Look where all this talking got us, baby.
    3. Re:It could violate federal law by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In a case like this though, even if it was government funds used to do the work, it will probably come out that it was done by "overly aggressive independent contractors" who "overstepped their bounds" and not by government mandate. ...

      Methinks this would be what some call plausible deniability.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    4. Re:It could violate federal law by mounthood · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Since when has violating the law deterred the actions of our government? With the wiretapping of people without a warrant, search and seizure of anyone unfortunate enough to require air travel or border crossing, detainment of individuals without due process, to instigating of torture of war prisoners, I'm somewhat surprised we don't hear more stories like this.

      Don't forget Asset Forfeiture -- you don't even have to be charged with a crime, much less convicted.

      --
      tomorrow who's gonna fuss
    5. Re:It could violate federal law by Charliemopps · · Score: 3, Insightful

      While the corporations are probobly getting treated better than your average citizen, I doubt they really enjoy the way our political environment exists today any more than we do. The problem isn't the rich, or corporations, that's just a red herring thrown at you by the REAL problem: The Democrat and Republican parties. The left blame the rich, the right blame the media. None of it is true. The laws are passed by 2 political parties that have the same goal: Power

    6. Re:It could violate federal law by Alex+Belits · · Score: 2

      Congratulation, you are an idiot.

      Nice try to defend your sacred cows by trying to start an argument about unrelated things that you ALSO wrong about.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    7. Re:It could violate federal law by Doctor_Jest · · Score: 2

      "It's good old government-sponsored Market corporatism at its best: Anything to protect profits."

      FTFY.

      These United States wouldn't know a free market if it sat on our face and started to wiggle.

      --
      It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.
    8. Re:It could violate federal law by TubeSteak · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem isn't the rich, or corporations, that's just a red herring thrown at you by the REAL problem: The Democrat and Republican parties. The left blame the rich, the right blame the media. None of it is true. The laws are passed by 2 political parties that have the same goal: Power

      Which party is trying to enact consumer protection laws, regulations to protect home buyers, regulations to reign in bank fraud?
      Which party passes laws protecting the rights of women and minorities or makes environmental protection a priority?
      I could go on and on, listing substantial policy differences between the Democratic and Republican parties.

      I accept that both parties want power, but it seems like only one party even pretends to have a token interest in using the least bit of that power to protect my interests in even the most minimal of ways.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    9. Re:It could violate federal law by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Those aren't your interests. All you are seeing is the futures of Orwell and Huxley fighting it out in real time.

      One comes via fear, force and ignorance, the other comes with a spoonful of sugar and ignorance. The problem is, they are both well on their way to becoming real.

      Liberty will be just as dead if killed through violent oppression (Orwell) or diabetic shock (Huxley).

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    10. Re:It could violate federal law by VortexCortex · · Score: 2

      The problem isn't the rich, or corporations, that's just a red herring thrown at you by the REAL problem: The Democrat and Republican parties.

      That's only one political party... The Federalists opposed the Democratic-Republican party, remember? After getting trade with England re-established the Federalist party was shut out for their "Spirit of the Law" thinking, leaving only the Democratic-Republican party as the dominant party... Today it's the only party available. The term False Dichotomy applies somewhat here, except the falseness is in thinking that a choice exists between two when there is only one choice.

      Furthermore, thanks to the spoiler effect, no independent party can arise. We need a multi-tiered ballot system whereby your vote says: I want X to win, and if X isn't winning, I want Y to win, and if that doesn't work out I want Z to win... etc. A preferred priority list (Alternative Vote) instead of a single vote system. This would enable you to vote independent, but not throw away your vote if they lose; Thus, opening the door for additional parties to slowly gain support over time, and have a real chance.

      I believe Australia has such a system in place. However, that's still not good enough. We also need representation that reflects the actual party percentages.

      Of course, with only a single established political party there's no way in hell we'll get them to release their reigns of power and implement a fair voting system -- So, looks like it's back to the "reboot the bitch" Anarchists angle for me.

  2. Re:How Silly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Its probably done during office hours and from ips where you can trace the ips back to them. At least make an effort and if found post all over this is just business as usual and people are starting to realize what their taxes really fund.

  3. Re:How Silly by smittyoneeach · · Score: 4, Informative

    Not when there is contract money and/or professional reputation at stake.

    --
    Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
  4. Is it real at all? by russotto · · Score: 3, Interesting

    My suspicious side wonders if these reporters created the fake sites themselves to stir up controversy.

    My other suspicious side wonders if it was just spammers copying a bunch of real and popular content to a website in order to do black hat SEO. Even the part about them being "sponsored by the Taliban" could have been stolen from some real comment on their articles.

    1. Re:Is it real at all? by Alex+Belits · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The simpler is the lie, the more people believe it. The net result of faking the libel than debunking it is always negative.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
  5. Seems every day I'm reading another shocker by rbrander · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Tim Weiner, who did a great book on the CIA, was on Jon Stewart the other day, touting his new book on the FBI. Seems the beginning of the plumbers was when J. Edgar Hoover refused to start tapping the phones of all the friends and relatives of groups like The Weathermen. And now the FBI is being asked to tap even more widely and without warrants. The new Surveillance State is, get this, worse than J.Edgar Hoover would tolerate, because it was so blatantly unconstitutional.

    But the FBI tapping is small potatoes. Hit Glenn Greenwald's column at Salon.com for the other day's article on "surveillance state evils"....the NSA, always forbidden to tap Americans, is now tapping, well, everything. Suspicions no longer seem paranoid that the "Total Information Awareness" is indeed being pursued: a new NSA data centre is just hoovering up (pardon the expression) every byte.

    The article goes on to detail a great deal more journalist and activist intimidation than this /. item: people who've spoken out for Wikileaks, done journalism, whatever, getting up against the wall every time they pass through customs, lawyer Jesslyn Radack searched EVERY TIME she goes through TSA even domestically, people threatened with jail and jailhouse-rape.

    It's just bewildering. Is this really the USA? And are it's citizens just taking it? Some freedom-loving people.

    1. Re:Seems every day I'm reading another shocker by Sancho · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's just bewildering. Is this really the USA? And are it's citizens just taking it? Some freedom-loving people.

      I don't have time to get mad. American Idol's on.

    2. Re:Seems every day I'm reading another shocker by theNAM666 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      >It's just bewildering. Is this really the USA? And are it's citizens just taking it? Some freedom-loving people.

      Congratulations. You've just discovered the difference between public ideology ("greatest country on earth," "home of freedom and democracy") and actual reality ("bow down to your corporate overlords").

      P.S. The journalists' claims are overblown, in the sense that reporting on Apple's manufacturing was overblown. I get interviewed every time I enter the US (because of "leftist affiliations" shall we say). The interrogations are, in the end, professionally and not over the top in a sort of bureaucratically chilling way. If I don't make a fuss or trouble, it's just a series of questions and answers, and they're not going to do an unnecessary invasive search because they're no point / it's inefficient. If you scream and holler and break protocol on your side, I'm sure, you've just set off all the alarm bells and they have to search you, but because you screamed and hollered and they have to search everyone who screams and hollers-- because that's what the bureaucratic playbook says they have to do-- not because you're a journalist who wrote about this or that, but because, in the end, you're making extra trouble.

      In short, don't argue with the cop unless you're prepared for the consequences.

    3. Re:Seems every day I'm reading another shocker by Vitriol+Angst · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yeah, because ONLY terrorists scream and holler about their rights -- and GOOD CITIZENS capitulate.

      What you've just described is a situation where the TSA security theater is merely there to make sure you bend over and say; "thank you sir."

      Security doesn't have shit to do with people making jokes, or making a fuss. The guy who want's to mess you up will stay under the radar and be the most polite person up until the moment of truth.

      In short, don't argue with the cop unless you're prepared for the consequences. -- Right, because we should all have consequences because we demand a Government and Security system that respects us.

      --
      >>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
  6. Sockpuppets for hire by EnergyScholar · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I hope all readers of Slashdot are already aware of the many 'boutique' consulting firms exist that provide this kind of service. For a fee, they will sell you anything from a single one-topic sock puppet appearance, to an entire social media campaign. I am personally familiar with organizations that provide this service. They definitely operate on Slashdot, and I have been seeing more and more probable sockpuppet appearances here. I strongly encourage all readers to increase personal awareness of this phenomenon. New media, and the shenanigans it makes possible, now requires a new type of media awareness, if one wishes to not be fooled and manipulated.

    1. Re:Sockpuppets for hire by MountainLogic · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Anytime energy, climate, guns, oil, taxes, nuclear, smoking, pesticides, pharmaceuticals or evolution gets mentioned you can expect to see the sock puppets come out. I would welcome a corporate flack who shows up and articulately say, "I'm VP at company X and here is what I want to tell you about our product..." Instead all we get is 3rd rate sub-contractor who just copies and paste, perhaps with bad edits, some anti-science drivel. I guess if you have a loosing argument the only choice is to give up on making your case and muddy the waters. Now that I've entered all those keywords, just watch how many sock puppets come out and respond out of context. So welcome shills, but just for kicks please list your employer this time. Any ex-shills out there?

    2. Re:Sockpuppets for hire by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 4, Funny

      Are they hiring? Sounds like fascinating work for a misanthrope like me.

    3. Re:Sockpuppets for hire by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Anytime energy, climate, guns, oil, taxes, nuclear, smoking, pesticides, pharmaceuticals or evolution gets mentioned you can expect to see the sock puppets come out.

      From both sides.

    4. Re:Sockpuppets for hire by Vitriol+Angst · · Score: 2

      This is not really that surprising.

      However, having had my debates with Global Warming Deniars, Pro Torture Advocates, People for the Protection of the Rich, and of course, the ever-present Citizens for Oil Company Profits who think that gas prices are about the free market -- I'm not so sure that ALL of this is SEO and Sock puppets.

      Some people are just damn idiots putting sock puppets out of a job. There is something wrong with people who are morons for free.

      --
      >>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
    5. Re:Sockpuppets for hire by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2

      Does this mean I can sell my Slashdot account to shill companies for a lot of money?

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  7. Does not scan by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 4, Informative

    Tfs: US Journalists Targeted By Pentagon Propaganda Contractors

    Tfa: says that they appear to have been targeted by a misinformation campaign. TFA makes no mention of a connection between the actions and propaganda contractors.

    Might be that they are connected - but nowhere is there proof or even a suggestion of proof for the statement.

    WTF slashdot...

    1. Re:Does not scan by TubeSteak · · Score: 2

      but nowhere is there proof or even a suggestion of proof for the statement.

      Did you get to the 4th sentence in TFA?

      For example, Internet domain registries show the website TomVandenBrook.com was created Jan. 7 -- just days after Pentagon reporter Tom Vanden Brook first contacted Pentagon contractors involved in the program. Two weeks after his editor Ray Locker's byline appeared on a story, someone created a similar site, RayLocker.com, through the same company.

      Or how about the 7th and 8th sentences where it is explained that the military talked to the contractors and some of the websites were taken offline "following those inquiries."

      "Correlation doesn't imply causation, but it does waggle its eyebrows suggestively and gesture furtively while mouthing 'look over there'"
      -xkcd

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
  8. Re:How Silly by hairyfeet · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The whole thing has gotten batshit thanks to the insane amount of money flowing through the pentagon and military industrial complex. Have you seen the F35 rock video? look it up and LYAO because, yeah, a project that so badly over budget it will be the most expensive weapon system in the history of the planet needs...a rock video.

    We need to trash the entire system and start over if bullshit like rock videos and "InfoOps" actually gets paid for with tax dollars. The whole system has gotten so spoiled from drowning in cash that any lame ass idea gets green lighted, what we need is to go back to the way it was pre WWII, where we simply put out a spec and don't buy shit until someone brings a product that meets the spec.

    But the reason we see contractors pulling shit like this is the simple fact the only thing our MIC knows how to do anymore is pad expense accounts. if they were coming in on time and on budget frankly they wouldn't have any need to cover up their dirty dealing with horseshit like this.

    --
    ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
  9. Identity theft by roman_mir · · Score: 2

    Reporter Tom Vanden Brook and Editor Ray Locker found that Twitter and Facebook accounts have been created in their names, along with a Wikipedia entry and dozens of message board postings and blog comments.

    - I suppose there are criminal laws concerning identity theft and they should be applicable not only when money is stolen from a bank account, but also in these cases, where somebody pretends they are someone else to push agenda.

    I can easily see how in the age of the Internet various agencies, government contractors try to disseminate fake and false information in order to confuse the issue. Who can tell on the Internet what is real and what is not? What opinion does anybody actually hold?

    After all, quite a number of people believe for example that Albert Einstein was a religious person in terms of following some religion, yet there is plenty of his writing where he specifically states that he does not believe in a god.

    Of-course it's easier to steal identity of people who are long gone, so they can't protect themselves and set the record straight, but even with the living it's a huge challenge.

    The Internet can be attacked in many ways, and it is.

  10. Re:How Silly by future+assassin · · Score: 2

    That's just trolling, I've done the same thing to old high school buddies. If this is "InfoOps" then it is simply laughable.

    So do you work or InfoOps?

    --
    by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
  11. Re:How Silly by fortfive · · Score: 3, Funny

    Yvan Eht Nioj . . .

  12. That is not what they do by SuperKendall · · Score: 2, Insightful

    an insurance company, whose sole purpose is profit, having the power to deny you lifesaving treatment based on your calculated "worth" is better?

    Insurance companies do not care how much you are worth. All they care about is pre-existing conditions.

    And if you think about it anything else is insane. Insurance is for spreading around costs between a large number of people for events that happen to a few. But if you are already a person with an expensive illness to treat you are 100% sure to be only a drain on the system instead of having a probability of helping to support others.

    Just like forcing banks to take on loans from people who cannot pay them back, forcing insurance companies to take people who only take from the system and cannot give will lead to collapse as well.

    The insurance system is still superior though because you are allowed to choose your level of risk, and there will always be a public system to fall back on for last resort for those that did not chose insurance. At worst you end up in the same situation you would have been in with a public health plan, government panels deciding who gets treatment.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:That is not what they do by hoggoth · · Score: 2, Insightful

      1) So once someone contracts an expensive illness they are "a drain on the system" and they should die. I'll tell my grandfather that; No, better I'll put him on an iceberg and push him off into the sea. That's how the Inuit used to handle 'a drain on the system'.

      2) What is this public system to fall back on for a last resort? I guess you are not in The USA because we have no system of last resort here. You get sick, you go bankrupt, then you die. That's how our politicians want it, that's how we want it, and that's how God wants it.

      --
      - For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat /dev/random (may take some time)
    2. Re:That is not what they do by kqs · · Score: 2, Informative

      Just like forcing banks to take on loans from people who cannot pay them back,

      Which would be a major problem if it had ever happened outside of Wall Street propaganda. Do you really think that the government has the power to do that to banks? Or that banks (who have almost limitless lobbying pockets) would allow it? If only.

      Insurance companies only care about your revenue/cost ratio. They only care about pre-existing conditions because they are a good predictor of a poor ratio. Anything else which indicates a poor ratio is just as bad. If they were allowed, insurance companies would drop everyone the second they got a serious illness.

      Given a choice between an insurance company (where the cost of my illness subtracts from their profit and their officers' yearly bonuses) and a government (which I can occasionally influence by voting), there ain't no comparison.

    3. Re:That is not what they do by Jawnn · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The insurance system is still superior though because you are allowed to choose your level of risk, and there will always be a public system to fall back on for last resort for those that did not chose insurance.

      Bzzzzzzt! Wrong. There is no "public system to fall back on for last resort for those that did not chose insurance". Read that again. There is no such thing. There is only a subset of medical services that are required, by law, to treat certain conditions regardless of the patient's ability to pay. In other words, emergency rooms, ths single most expensive place to deliver health care. Dude, your understanding of the health care system, and the insurance industry that leaches huge profit from it is badly flawed.

    4. Re:That is not what they do by Fallingcow · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Besides, what the "any of the universal coverage systems used in all the other OECD nations would reduce our freedom!" arguments all seem to ignore is that most people aren't especially free to pick their health insurance or much of anything else about their health care experience. Most get nothing, awful catastrophic-only insurance (and you better believe they'll fight tooth and nail not to pay for anything at all if something bad does happen, leaving you to duke it out with both them and the hospitals, who don't give a shit and will gladly go after you if the insurance companies drag their feet, all while you're sick), or, in the best case, whatever insurance that their job supplies.

      There really aren't enough people getting meaningful choices out of our system for it to be a sensible argument against single-payer or, say, a Swiss-style system, especially considering that most who do have choices under the US system would still have choices under most others--even in the UK with its more-nationalized-than-most health care system you can pay for private care and insurance, on top of the basic care that everyone gets.

      A slim minority of edge cases might get left out, but almost everyone would see no effective decrease in "freedom" under most UHC systems. It's a 100% bullshit argument but, in my experience, is the one that's gotten the most traction, alongside general (and also bullshit) fear mongering about waiting lists and such. I really don't understand what's going on in people's heads when they throw this out, and they're on their employer's insurance--in those cases they don't seem to me to have a dog in the "freedom" fight, except in some hypothetical abstract way that will never have any practical meaning to them.

      Most people don't have any more say in their health care now than they would under a universal system, and we pay more, and we leave lots of people without coverage, and our system is a huge burden on small businesses, entrepreneurs, and independent contractors. What the goddamn hell is worth defending about it?

    5. Re:That is not what they do by lexsird · · Score: 2

      Hospitals, health insurance is big business and big money. We have preached capitalism is our new God, and that America is founded on it and you will die in a fire if you say otherwise. It doesn't matter how you make it, as long as you are rich, you are deemed a success and to be hailed as a hero and role model.

      There is a sickness in this country that the health care industry can't cure, and that is greed. We've seen the extremes of communism fail, now we get to see the extreme of capitalism fail.

      The irony of it all is how the wage slaves of America some how feel their "freedom" is threatened by nationalized health care. That is some elegant brainwashing via some of the finest propaganda the world has ever seen. Whenever someone mentions freedom in this country, I get an eye tick. You should too.

      --
      Take the Red Pill.
  13. See it all the time on Wikipedia by br00tus · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I did some work on the No Gun Ri article on Wikipedia, which is an incident of Americans massacring Korean civilians during the US war in Korea. It was whitewashed by someone, whose DNS PTR records at the time were 214.13.196.180 host196-180.iraq.centcom.mil . CENTCOM by the way is the organization highlighted in the documentary "Control Room".

    Or we have Fort Benning whitewashing all the Latin American death squads that were trained there, that IP's DNS PTR back then was doim1-358.benning.army.mil - it whitewashed the WHISC article as well. Of course, with September 11th, we now have death squads and terrorists trained by the US government now not just killing indigenous farmers in El Salvador, but killing Americans in the US as well. Good going, guys!

    It's basically like Orwell's Ministry of Truth in 1984. Well not like it, it is exactly that. My tax dollars go to pay the commissars of the US empire to erase the evidence of their massacres from history. Of course, the purpose of making this stuff disappear from history, like the US soldier who went into a village in Afghanistan recently and murdered many civilians, is so that they can portray the US and its military and its multinational corporations as shining white knights out saving the world, not raping and pillaging for plunder, empire and profit.

  14. Re:How Silly by Jawnn · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You have gravely underestimated the stakes here. This is not a matter of a practical joke played on a buddy or coworker. Not be a long shot. If true, it is, to say the least, criminal. Then again, the federal government's standard MO these days is to break the law and mutter something about terrorists if they get caught at it. In any case, the Orwellian shadow cast by this is chilling. If it's all true, we are well past the point where those who control the levers of power clearly see the public as "them".

  15. Gawker.com says its Leonie Industries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    USAToday didn't name the people they believe are responsible because they don't have any hard proof linking the smear campaign to them.

    Gawker.com, though, is seemingly not burdened by any such journalistic standards :)

    Meet the Pentagon Contractor That Ran a Disinformation Campaign Against Two USA Today Reporters

    Last night USA Today reported that two of its staffers, Tom Vanden Brook and Ray Locker, were the targets of a smear campaign, including fake Twitter accounts and web sites established in their names, launched by a Pentagon contractor specializing in "information operations." For some reason, the paper declined to name the perpetrator:Leonie Industries

    ...

    Oddly, the USA Today story on the mischief names only "Pentagon contractors" as likely culprits.
    But a source familiar with the story confirms that the contractor responsible is Leonie Industries, an information operations company with more than $90 million in Army contracts in Afghanistan. It's doubly odd that USA Today didn't at least seek comment from Leonie on the disinformation, since Leonie was the primary target of the investigation that apparently sparked the sculduggery, and would be the inescapable suspect to anyone who put two and two together.

    More on Leonie Industries here:

    http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Leonie_Industries

  16. Re:How Silly by DesScorp · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The whole thing has gotten batshit thanks to the insane amount of money flowing through the pentagon and military industrial complex.

    I'm pretty right wing, at least compared to most posters on Slashdot, but there's one thing I'm pretty much in agreement with liberals on: our military industrial complex is out of control. We can't seem to make a weapons system without breaking the bank, and I'm pretty firmly convinced it's because of our MIC tainted procurement process. Unlike the private sector, where I'm a free market guy, I'd like to see the military return to the military owned-system of production we used partially in the 20's and 30's. Many of the Navy's ships were built by the Navy itself in Navy-owned shipyards. Before the naval aviation industry really took off, the Navy made its own airplanes in their own factory. The Army had various plants producing armor and guns. The military began phasing these systems out in the mid-30's (kind of surprising that this would happen under FDR, but it did), and by the early 60's, almost all military production was done by contractors. Some studies showed that the mix of Navy-owned and private shipyards helped keep the contractors honest and prices down.

    Basically, I think that since weapons procurement really isn't a "market" in the US, that they military should simply come up with a requirement for what they need, and then build it themselves with a fixed budget from Congress. Get someone like Lockheed involved, and the price always shoots up stratospherically with all of the subcontractors they bring along.

    --
    Life is hard, and the world is cruel
  17. Re:How Silly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'll just add to this a little story I heard. A certain military base did electronics work for a large section of the US. A different branch of the military was paying a private contractor almost 100 grand a pop to repair modules they were sold for a vehicle. Said modules almost never worked. A maintenance tech at the base was asked by this other branch to look into it, since they'd worked on similiar parts in the past. Long story short, he was able to do the same repair for 1/20th the cost, and after being returned to the other branch it managed to work for multiple times as long as the 'manufacturer repaired' modules.

    How did this get handled by the military? The base in question was shut down during the cutbacks 10ish years ago, and turned into a bunch of commercial buildings. The equipment in question got stuck being sent back to the manufacturer under their repair prices which cost 100 grand and often didn't return repaired.

    While I agree we wouldn't want the military side of things to rest on their laurels, they *USED* to have a *LOT* of brilliant personnel, lifers willing to work day in and day out to make stuff work and make the repair of it an artform. And you know what we've done? 'Retired' them, outsourced the work to the 'lowest common denominator', who due to their quest for maximum profitability are fully inclined to overcharge and underperform, and thanks to the ever dwindling supply of highly technical maintenance engineers and the common knowledgebase among them, the commercial sector has more and more power in contract negotiations because they don't have competition (Honestly given the consolidation in military suppliers, combined with reduction in military maintenance facilities) they can charge what they want and if there's not someone else you can take it to when it breaks, you're pretty much stuck paying what they'll offer.

  18. Re:How Silly by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 2

    So we used to be overspending on the military worse than we are now Ans that makes our current militaryindustrialextravaganza OK?

    We could cut total military spending 50% and it would sill be out of line with what we need

  19. Re:How Silly by hairyfeet · · Score: 2

    Well then this will probably blow your mind, i'm about as leftist as they come and I think that we should use part of the savings from getting rid of our overcharging underperforming MIC and use it to...gasp! give our soldiers a 25% pay increase across the board! its just shameful that we can spend a trillion dollars on a turkey like the F35 (when the Russians can whip off SU27s for 35 million, MiG 29s for 30 mil, and MiG 31s for 60 mil) while many of the men risking their lives have families on food stamps!

    But our entire military and MIC budgeting system is horribly broken. My grandfather used to come back from the base with loads of brand new stuff, how? Did he steal it? nope because they had to "blow the budget" to keep from having it cut the next year so they'd throw out brand new tools, radios, hell one year they threw out every chair and sofa on the entire base, even though most were less than a year old! and then of course we have the contractors that can blow billions jerking us along and even if the contract is eventually canceled they have clauses written so they get paid a cancelling fee, even when it is THEIR FAULT because they never did the fucking job!

    But that is why i think we need to go back to the way it was pre WWII and for most of WWI itself, where we put out a spec and if and ONLY if they came up to us with a working prototype that fit the spec AND the price listed in the spec would we buy. By doing it this way we had serious competition because the one with the best design and prototype won, no stringing us along with some half baked idea that in practice simply doesn't work. mark my words the F35 will be exactly like the F22, only a handful made at some insane price per bird and it'll be kept away from the front just because of how much one of them costs. hell even the Navy has quietly given up on it and is in talks to buy more F-18s and there is talk of giving the green light to the Stealth Eagle to cover the role the F35 would have fulfilled. in the end it will be a trillion we couldn't afford pissed down a rat hole while the MIC enjoys golden shitters and $1000 hookers.

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    ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
  20. Re:How Silly by Wakko+Warner · · Score: 2, Informative

    And this is precisely the reason I'm glad I left the US a few years ago, likely for good. The government there is no longer in the hands of the people, and likely never will be again.

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    "Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
  21. Re:How Silly by Pence128 · · Score: 2

    Palin specified that she was referring to Section 1233 of bill HR 3200 which would have paid physicians for providing voluntary counseling to Medicare patients about living wills, advance directives, and end-of-life care options.

    The "death panel" is a doctor asking you if you really want to spend your last 2 weeks on life support drifting in and out of consciousness in extreme pain and too full of morphine to think, which is the default option if you don't specify otherwise.

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    404: sig not found.