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Brain Scan Can Predict Math Mistakes

itwbennett writes "Computer Science Ph.D. candidate Federico Cirett says that he can predict with 80 percent accuracy when someone is about to make a mistake on a math question. Using an EEG machine, Cirett can identify the patterns in a volunteer's thinking that are likely to result in an error 20 seconds or so before it's made. 'If we can detect when they are going to fail, maybe we can change the text or switch the question to give them another one at a different level of difficulty, but also to keep them engaged,' Cirett said. 'Brain wave data is the nearest thing we have to really know when the students are having problems.' He will present a paper on his findings at the User Modeling, Adaptation and Personalization conference in July."

32 of 133 comments (clear)

  1. Maybe there's something wrong with me... by mooingyak · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The first thing I can think of to do with this is figure out how to trigger it and then proceed to get the problem correct, just to screw with everyone.

    --
    William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
    1. Re:Maybe there's something wrong with me... by Garth+Smith · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Say we get this system to 100% accuracy. We know ahead of time that little Jimmy will not be able to solve this math problem. Little Jimmy has exhausted his options and has become stuck. Then what is the point of wasting time having him stare at it? I would take this as an alert that little Jimmy needs help, to intervene, and get little Jimmy learning again.

    2. Re:Maybe there's something wrong with me... by icebike · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Say we get this system to 100% accuracy. We know ahead of time that little Jimmy will not be able to solve this math problem. Little Jimmy has exhausted his options and has become stuck. Then what is the point of wasting time having him stare at it? I would take this as an alert that little Jimmy needs help, to intervene, and get little Jimmy learning again.

      Isn't that the old "allow no failure" school of thought repackaged?

      On the other hand, if Little Jimmy stares at it a little longer, or perhaps is allowed to actually get it wrong (horrors), and then reason out why it was wrong, his learning will probably be better and longer lasting. Or if we give him a few more seconds, perhaps he will have an epiphany as his prior learning bubbles to the surface of his oat-meal brain. But most likely, jumping in 20 seconds before he offers the wrong answer isn't telling him anything he already doesn't know.

      Chances are, it has nothing what so ever to do with math, but merely detects the changes in the brain that signal resignation, or the formation of Jimmy's realization that he does not know the answer or the path to the answer. His brain isn't working on math any more, its resigning him to the fact he can't solve this problem. It takes people a while to come to grips with this fact. Saving him 20 seconds AFTER he has already puzzled out this fact, but BEFORE he brings himself to write something wrong, amounts to no saving at all.

      Let him spend that 20 seconds of mental anguish before writing down his guess. Chances are its a valuable part of the learning process. Why jump into micromanagement mode of a learning process we still don't understand?

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    3. Re:Maybe there's something wrong with me... by CaptainLugnuts · · Score: 5, Funny

      With most Americans' working knowledge of math it would be easier to make a machine that just says 'Wrong Answer."

  2. How wonderful by durrr · · Score: 4, Funny

    A patronizing system that tells you that you've already failed before you've actually done so that gives you amateurish problems so it can see you succeed.

    I hope it comes with a robot arm that tears the test paper out from under your pen, pats you on the head and give you a first grade replacement problem. Bonus for cheering with a nonenthusiastic voice whenever you pass a problem.

    1. Re:How wonderful by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

      It's all fun and games to laugh at the nannybot; but one should probably spare a moment's concern for the much-cherished illusion of 'agency', which is not done much good by any result that allows an individual's mental processes to be inferred before they've even become aware of them...

      The researcher's suggestion for on-the-fly difficulty adjustment seems (if not overtly wrongheaded) a waste of scanner hardware, just waiting 20 seconds will give you the same data. The interesting bit is that actually making the mistake is apparently something you do fairly late in the game, compared to the occult mental activity...

    2. Re:How wonderful by Garth+Smith · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I majored in math and spend many hours tutoring math. Here is a key in tutoring, you need to give challenging but SOLVABLE problems! Otherwise you just frustrate and make math something to hate. If I got stuck on some math homework and couldn't figure it out, that sucked. I figured out pretty quick if I was stuck for 5 minutes, just wait and go ask for help.

      What I found interesting about the article is that the mention of the word "math" is enough for some people to show signs of imminent failure. I have often come across this while tutoring and the best thing that I could do to help these people is to remove a fear of math from them. Show them that they CAN do some easier math, and then move on from there.

      This is key in educating anyone in any topic. Challenging but SOLVABLE problems! Your attitude only makes society hate mathematics more, when they should be shown the wonder and excitement of it!

    3. Re:How wonderful by GSloop · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I believe you intended to be funny or sarcastic here, but many of the replies down-stream also seem to miss the point.

      Provided you can believe the article...
      There are *patterns* of thinking that indicate a student is about to make a mistake, that they otherwise may well be capable of solving correctly.

      It's not that they can't handle that difficulty, or don't know the subject matter; it's that their brain is going into patterns that indicate it will simply be unable to reproduce the known material, and the student will fail on that problem, even if they have the requisite knowledge and skill to successfully answer the question.

      It would seem a monumental failure to test someone and not actually measure the skill they have accurately.

      Now, the solution? There are a myriad of them, and some are obviously better than others.

      The prime solution, it seems in my mind, is to then give the subject a view of their brain and thinking that produced this likelihood of failure. You'd teach them how to recognize the onset of the thinking/brain patterns, and how to re-direct their thinking to help alleviate this bad construct.

      Teaching someone how to do that would be incredible. It wouldn't involve "going easy" on them, and wouldn't give them results they couldn't achieve on their own. Once they were able to move out of the "bad" patterns, they could go right back to doing the test and you would get a much more accurate measurement of what the test-taker actually knew.

      Further, almost certainly some people are much worse at getting stuck in these brain patterns - and their results from testing are probably much worse than the rest of the population and they are measured very inaccurately.

      In spite of all the "humor" and snowflake BS thrown at the concept, I see this as something that could greatly improve the quality and skill of the people who utilized it. It could allow us to tap the potential of people who otherwise would be lost as "not very good" who really only fail the measurement system. [Or more accurately, the measurement system fails them.]

      Why throw away many who *do* have the requisite knowledge - simply because we don't know how to help them perform better?
      Why not help people perform better and learn where their brain limitations cost them - and better yet, teach them how to modify their thinking and work output to give them better results?

      -Greg

    4. Re:How wonderful by LateArthurDent · · Score: 2

      I've made this observation before. Back when I was in school, classmates around me who had serious problem learning the material generally fell into one of two categories:

      1. They got frustrated with their inability to learn the material remained permanently stuck on the problem, and just decided they hated the course, the professor, or whatever. Typically that stemmed from lacking a good grasp on knowledge the rest of us had. Either a misunderstanding on what was just explained, or a fundamental lack of understanding on the material from a prerequisite course (or something that should have been a prerequisite course). What these guys needed was to have someone observe their thought process in trying to solve the problem, find out why they were stuck, and give them the knowledge they lack. Once they get that extra knowledge and start solving the problems more easily, that builds confidence, and they stop being afraid / hating the subject.
      2. If they couldn't solve the problem, they'd instantly give up and ask someone how to do it. This stems from never being given a challenging problem, or just always being shown the procedure of how to solve one as soon as they explain that they don't immediately know how to do it. And of course, once they leave school, nobody needs them to solve problems that we already have a procedure for how to solve. Figuring out a solution to a problem we don't have the answer to is what we want to pay them to do.

      In short, you're obviously a good teacher. You don't crush your students' confidence to the point where they refuse to try, but you also make sure to challenge them so that they don't get into the second mode of just asking for help immediately if they haven't seen the problem before.

  3. University of Florida by Bigby · · Score: 2

    I am going to guess that Federico Cirett didn't go to UF.

  4. Helping people relax by sideslash · · Score: 2

    Fascinating research, but I am not a fan of his suggested application. The last thing I want as a test taker is to have a computer dumb down the test (with presumed accompanying grade reduction) to help me relax and feel good about myself.

    1. Re:Helping people relax by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

      It is possible that the researcher is somehow still a clueless bleeding-heart about math exams and drills, even after making it through a hard science curriculum; but I suspect that there is a much more sensible core to the idea(albeit one that can be achieved in large part just by waiting for the examinee to answer before posing the next question, rather than with the fancy apparatus)...

      Especially for drills/practice, it is considered pedagogically wasteful to either waste a student's time on problems they can crush trivially or problems that they can only bang their head futilely against. The ideal is to keep the student at the edge of their ability, emphasizing areas where they are unacceptably weak; but not so weak as to be unlikely to benefit from the practice.

      If the objective is a final evaluation of some sort, adjusting the difficulty makes no sense. However, if it is a practice exercise of some kind, continuous modification of difficulty according to understanding is a virtue.

  5. Snowflakes by girlintraining · · Score: 5, Insightful

    'Brain wave data is the nearest thing we have to really know when the students are having problems.

    Most people have been raised with the notion that it's more important to appear competent than be competent. There's several college-themed cartoons out there about that express hatred for "The Question Guy"... and most people are acutely aware that asking questions on material is a great way to earn the irritation and ostracism of your peers, who feel they have better things to do than get an education and really just want to go through the motions and get out.

    This is another technology that's trying to solve a social problem, and like every attempt in that regard, it will fail, be impractical, and people will try to defeat it -- because they don't see the point and they don't want to appear incompetent. In 20 years, we'll be getting coached on how to have the right brain wave patterns for getting through the airport unmolested, how to cheat on your final and not get detected by the brain wave readers, etc.

    The problem is in our social values and attitudes. It's systemic and institutional. No technology can fix that, however advanced.

    --
    #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    1. Re:Snowflakes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The only "question guy" I've seen people really hate is the kind that goes: "hey professor: something I already know by reading ahead, slightly rephrased as a question to garner your respect and appear intelligent?"

      Usually the person asking legitimate "I'm trying to understand this" questions is doing everybody a favour, and I've never seen anything but appreciation for these people.

    2. Re:Snowflakes by jellomizer · · Score: 4, Informative

      Well there are a bunch of different question guys.
      1. Question to show off. Ask an intelligent question that helps lead the professor into the next chapter. Sometimes it isn't to show off, but because how the material is presented, it get the person to stir about the points brought up in class and starts thinking too much so they get confused and needs to point out the details in the next part.

      2. The Stupid Question. These are questions that you ask because you weren't paying attention 5 minutes ago. Or because you failed to learn the course before.

      3. The Question that takes too long. If the Teacher/Professor cannot explain it to you after 2 questions you should take it off line, and not disrupt the class any further.

      4. The Question everyone has, but is afraid to ask. When one poor brave sole asks the question everyone else was afraid to ask. This often happens when the professor is trying to go to fast and/or uses proofs by intimidation to get to the next spot. "So we find this value, and as anyone can see it brings us to this conclusion...."

      5. The honest question. Others in the class may get it, but you are missing a small piece and you just can't quite visualize it. A quick answer and you are on your way.

      For the most part it is difficult to judge what type of question you are asking until after you asked it.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    3. Re:Snowflakes by dkleinsc · · Score: 2

      Most people have been raised with the notion that it's more important to appear competent than be competent.

      There's a reason for that: Appearing competent is easier than being competent, and the rewards almost as great if not greater. For instance, a person who's able to get hired as an executive by appearing competent can protect themselves from the consequences of failure by blaming subordinates, blaming another department, blaming market conditions, or most drastically moving to another organization citing philosophical differences with the place they're at, to the point where they can "fail upwards" and reach the upper echelons of management without ever having done anything useful. Whereas a person who's good at the grunt work is often stuck at a senior foreman kind of level where he's still doing the grunt work with his team.

      In other words, if we rewarded our scientists and teachers the same way we do our CEOs, we'd be a lot further along scientifically than we are now.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
  6. Suggestion by Dorsch · · Score: 5, Funny

    There should be a system like that for posting on the internet... "Error Code 427 - there is a 80% probability you're posting bullshit. Your post was discarded."

  7. Something for the wrist? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I wish I had something like this to wear on a wrist to check my thinking.

    Years ago, back in the dark ages (80s), I was taking a thermo exam. We were given data and we had to derive an equation from said data. Anyway, after pondering it, deriving the equation, checking it once, checking it twice and seeing that it was nice, I turned in my exam.

    'D' on the Final

    Why?

    Forgot to divide by '2' and that screwed up everything else. That ended any dreams of a science or engineering career - thermo was absolutely required and it had to be a 'C' or better.

    I went to 'B' school instead, became a programmer (only job I could get. The bond traders wanted nothing to do with me.), and now I'm a long term unemployed loser.

    So, what's the moral of my story?

    I don't have a fucking clue. And I guess I failed at story telling too.

    Wait here's something:

    Kids, learn to concentrate. Learn to give 100% of your attention to the present moment. Ignore folks who want "multitaskers" and ignore the media that insists on dividing your attention - pretty much anything electronic. Video games? Not from what I've seen. Yeah it requires attention, but it does so with a lot of variation.

    Anyway, never mind. I'm a loser.

    Carry on.

    1. Re:Something for the wrist? by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 2

      Forgot to divide by '2' and that screwed up everything else

      You got a D on an exam because you forgot to divide by 2 somewhere? I see three possibilities:
      * You didn't show your work, and you got 0 points for the problem because you only showed the wrong answer.
      * You are leaving out all the other problems you got wrong that contributed to the D
      * You had a lousy teacher/grader, who considers a missing division by 2 to be as bad as not knowing anything about thermodynamics at all.

      Personally, the last part is a pet peeve of mine. With grades being all you have to show for in school, nuking someone for just getting a small step wrong somewhere is idiotic and counter productive. The goal isn't to get people to memorize things, but instead to understand concepts. Details can easily be looked up. That said, the other pet peeve of mine were students who complained I gave zero points on a problem when they had forgotten to divide by two - but only gave me the anwer. If you want partial credit, don't be lazy - show your work.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
  8. Re:Why not just wait? by flibbidyfloo · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Some testing system, like for the CPA license (in California at least) already do this. the computer system adjusts the difficulty of certain questions based on how you're doing so far. How exactly it does this is proprietary information and it doesn't dumb things down too much, but it can also make the test harder if you are doing really well. Then something magic happens inside the computer and it tells you whether you passed.

    This seems like a silly application for such research though. Who is going to want to have to have electrodes hooked up to their head just to take a test? It's already stressful enough without having more stuff to distract you.

  9. Use this to annotate code by Animats · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This could be useful for programmers. It may be possible to detect some programming errors while programming.

    1. Re:Use this to annotate code by gstrickler · · Score: 2

      And if it can deliver an electric shock when they do something idiotic, like fail to validate input, that would be awesome.

      --
      make imaginary.friends COUNT=100 VISIBLE=false
  10. Old Technology by squidflakes · · Score: 4, Funny

    That's nothing, I had an ex-girlfriend who could predict with 100% accuracy when I was going to say or do something stupid, usually in response to her being upset.

    1. Re:Old Technology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      With this new system she would interrupt you and ask a less dangerous question for you to screw up on.

    2. Re:Old Technology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      "Does this dress make me look fat?"
      *ding*
      "Er, I mean, do I look pretty in this dress?"
      *ding*
      "Um, er, how about we skip the night out, and I lose the dress?"
      *no error ding*

  11. Re:Obvious question by ledow · · Score: 2

    More likely, the brain knows that it HASN'T GOT A CLUE about the answer and works harder to find one. It goes out of its normal operation to find memories, skills, techniques that it could use to perform the operation and get an answer and thus activates areas of the brain not normally activated for a question you DO know how to answer.

    These idiots then suggest we should take the problem away from them at that point and feed them an easier/different question.

    The brain has lots of subconscious thoughts but knowing the answer to a high-level abstract question when the conscious part doesn't is incredibly unlikely.

    They are not detecting wrong answers or internal bickering between the conscious and sub-conscious. What they are detecting is confusion.

    I bet you could do better than 80% just by looking at their faces.

  12. Re:Why not just wait? by Garth+Smith · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Who is going to want to have to have electrodes hooked up to their head just to take a test? It's already stressful enough without having more stuff to distract you.

    I view this as research into how to better teach mathematics, or really how to better teach any intellectually challenging subject. I don't think they are hoping to hook up every test-taker to this thing, but rather trying to understand how the brain picks apart challenging problems. I feel such research is very useful.

  13. Re:Why not just wait? by Dewin · · Score: 2

    At least some of the MCSE-related exams do as well, though they're adaptive in a different manner -- if you miss a question on one subject area, it asks more (harder) questions on that subject to determine if it was just a tiny mistake or if your knowledge on that subject is actually lacking. The drawback to the format is you can't go back and revise your answers before time is up since, if you could, you could pay close attention to the questions being asked and go "Oh, I must have picked the wrong answer to this one, let's try this other answer."

    The net result is a much shorter test than when I took the NT Server 4.0 exam (70-067) way back when (a few months before they changed to the adaptive format.)

    (Disclaimer: I never actually did anything with my (now defunct) certification, I just had a high-school level class (as a pilot program) that actually taught it and included a trip to take the actual test.)

    --
    Of course nobody reads the FAQ! If people read the FAQ, the Questions wouldn't be so Frequently Asked.
  14. Re:Typical "educator"'s thinking by Garth+Smith · · Score: 3, Informative

    I find your stereotype of educators incorrect. This study is attempting to figure out how students learn and solve problems. Such information is useful to educators. So in your words... If a student is having difficulty solving a math problem, we identify what deficiency is holding them back, then give them a simpler math problem that remedies the deficiency. Mathematics is highly structured, and I find that many times students need to go back and practice a prior topic before attempting the current exercise.

    I'm going to guess most people complaining didn't RTFA. Changing math problems in the middle of a test was an offhand comment in the last paragraph, discussing possible applications for his current research. The current research being understanding how the brain works.

  15. Re:Why not just wait? by azadrozny · · Score: 3, Informative

    It is called computer-adaptive testing. I can't speak to the CA CPA exam, but the algorithm is usually not secret. Questions are categorized as easy, medium, and hard, some tests may have more categories. Your first question is of medium difficulty. When you answer a question correctly, your next question is harder. If you get a question wrong, you are given the next easier question. You get more points for correctly answering a hard questions than an easy ones. The test taker does not know the difficulty of the current question, and you are never permitted to return to a question once it is submitted.

    This is how the GRE was run when I took it. I recall that you could request a statement of how each question was scored, but it was missing the question and the choices, so it would be of little diagnostic value to most people.

    I know I would not want to submit to a test that scores the question before you actually respond. I suppose it is a fun research topic, but I don't see a practical application for the work. Maybe you could add it to a game show like Who Wants to be a Millionare. There would be no need for Regis to ask "is that your final answer?"

  16. Computer programming and refactoring by goombah99 · · Score: 2

    Forget nit picking over optimizing testing strategies. The real news is you can predict where someone is likely to make an error. Imagine recording all this data while someone was writing code. Eventually there is a bug detected but where is it? Well you might want to color code the code to show sections where the person was struggling with logic. That might be a place to look first. Of course it might be in some place where it never occurred to the person they should be struggling or was just a typo. But at least automatically flagging every place where the programmer was unsure of things would help with code reviews or code refactoring.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
  17. Re:Why not just wait? by kj_kabaje · · Score: 3, Interesting

    FYI, CAT (Computer Adaptive Testing) is *not* proprietary. There a lot of papers out there about how to do adaptive testing and how to do it well. That said, all of these systems, as an earlier respondent noted, are based upon actual responses rather than predicted responses. As a professional in assessment, I would not want to base any decisions about item presentation on 80% accuracy. We assess because there is uncertainty and we need evidence to model and demonstrate our best estimate of whatever it is we are measuring. The trouble with adapting before you have evidence is that you never push a examinee to their extremes. You've already artificially constrained the range of difficulties and items that a student will see. Restriction of range is already a huge problem on existing tests because of people's preconceptions of what's appropriate for certain ages or groups of examinees. It's promising technology and I intend on watching how it evolves.