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Google Gets Driverless License For Nevada Roads
Fluffeh writes "On Monday, the Nevada Department of Motor Vehicles approved Google's license application to test autonomous vehicles on the state's roads. The state had approved such laws back in February, and has now begun issuing licenses based on those regulations. The state previously outlined that companies that want to test such vehicles will need an insurance bond of $1 million and must provide detailed outlines of where they plan to test it and under what conditions. Further, the car must have two people in it at all times, with one behind the wheel who can take control of the vehicle if needed. The Autonomous Review Committee of the Nevada DMV is supervising the first licensing procedure and has now approved corresponding plates to go with it, complete with a red background and infinity symbol."
TFA fails to mention why two people are required in the test vehicle. I can understand having a "driver" that can take over if something goes wrong, but what is the purpose of the 2nd person?
No guy with a red flag in front - wont someone think of the children!
Err 1 million dollar bond just for the licence? Shill much?
Fortunately beta car are not allowed on roads, or else every car manufacturer would claim their car is a beta version and get away with it. Go shill elsewhere.
Google is trying to find the next massive source of money. Driverless cars can and will change the world in addition to making billions of dollars for those involved. Google wants to be involved in that.
But you've figured it out. Because gmail said "beta" a bit too long...the driverless cars suck and will murder people.
You're a useless anti-google shill.
If only they got a Java license too!
I wonder who's going to be immortalised as the first person to be killed by a computer-controlled car?
"Paranoid" does not mean "more concerned than I am". And yes, that is what you were saying.
Having seen the way most humans drive, I trust the Google'mobile much more than my bio-brethren.
This signature is false.
Probably some poor mechanic working on said car, When owner calls it home whilst still up on the Car Jack.
Ahem...
"Beta" has no direct effect on legal liability. It mainly exists to manage customer expectations about feature stability and functionality.
And, anyway, its not something they do that much anymore.
Plus, posting a $1 million bond liability bond is a strange thing to do to "avoid liability".
I think there are lots of really obvious ways you could "gain something" from driverless vehicle technology that don't involve privacy violations.
Starting with licensing driverless vehicle technology to vehicle manufacturers.
Google Goggles isn't a device at all, its software that's available for various devices.
Uh, yeah, it advertises itself as an image-based version of search. Next thing you are going to be surprised that the Google Search app doesn't do the search locally on your device, but sends the search terms to Google's servers.
"living world" and "meatspace" are the same thing.
And it would give them the same amount of information as with the facial recognition technology without the patent, which is a red herring.
So? Aside from revealing your personal biases, what value do you think your unsubstantiated guess in this area provides?
First person to sue for Google-induced-whiplash will be much earlier
your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
Further, the car must have two people at all times, with one behind the wheel who can take control of the vehicle if needed.
I can just picture the epic scene... Drunkard has his car drive him home while he snoozes. And gets arrested for sleeping at the wheel. Would that count as a DUI?
And what, exactly, makes you think you have any privacy, or expectation of any privacy, on public roads?
Here, cars might as well be driverless as a staggering fraction of the drivers should never be licensed any ways. I figure the driverless car is likely a lot less likely to cause the kind of traffic accidents that are caused here every day by the ones with drivers in them, and also less likely to injure me or any actual skilled driver either.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
In a way, that is *also* what I am saying. Read the post from OP and tell me that isn't paranoid.
"It's obvious they are trying to gain something from this and with their style and business practices, it probably means something that outright violates your and everyone else's privacy."
Google goes out does something that no other company was willing to explore, and this undoubtedly will cost them billions in R&D. Of course they are going to try to gain something from this. OP must be living in some dream world where companies do these things for free.
"Now I can only guess that Google is trying to expand their privacy violations to roads, driving habits and your everyday life."
Like I said, paranoid much?
Because:
(1) Google's "non-working Beta software" often works better than software from other companies that purports to be ready for general release,
(2) For most software purposes on the internet, there isn't the kind of immediate public safety concern that justifies regulation of what vehicles are allowed on public roadways.
Insofar as thee have been actual credible accusations of privacy violations at Google, governments -- both in the EU and the US -- have stepped in.
If you have information on cases where that has not occurred, you should provide specifics, rather than vague handwringing.
Though, preferably, in an appropriate place -- even if you had a point, without some nexus beyond a connection to the same company, it would still be off-topic in a thread on Google's driverless car technology.
As a pretty firm believer in the principal of legality as opposed to the rule of lynch mobs, I'd like to see some credible evidence that the "CEO's and higher level people" actually committed offenses for which jailing is the punishment prescribed by law before accepting that they ought to be put in jail.
Google Gets Driverless License For Nevada Roads
1. It is not driverless as there has to be a driver behind the wheel at all times.
2. From the term "driverless license" it seems that they are comparing it to a "driver's license" which is not true. What is actually being issued is an "autonomous testing business license and license plates:.
It is a license to test autonomous vehicle under very strict guidelines.
A much better headline would have been "Google gets license to test autonomous vehicles on Nevada roads"; less flashy but much more accurate
Is someone holding a gun to your head and forcing you to use Google's services?
I hate these practices too. But google is hardly alone on this. Pretty much every software I have used has a disclaimer that say, there is no guarantee that the software will work and they are not liable for any damages.
I hope the FTC takes interest and clamps down hard on such practices.
I see you are still singling out Google. You just confirmed that you are a shill.
Google has been testing fully autonomous cars in the Bay area for years without any incidents. I would hardly call it 'beta' in the sense of beta software. There's also a requirement that two people be in the car while it's running. It's not as if Google will let hundreds of these cars out on the streets of Nevada with nobody inside to stop them. Not only will Google have $1 million in liability coverage, the lives of two of their own employees per vehicle will be on the line. I'm not too worried about them getting in accidents (at least not of their own fault).
I imagine that if this tech ever becomes mainstream, and whole slew of new laws will have to be put in place. From sleeping/drinking at the wheel, to the current ban on cell phones in most states.
If anything, I'd suspect that sleeping, drinking and anything else that incapacitates you will still be illegal, but anything from which you could recover quickly (talking, texting, reading, etc) would be allowed, with provisions for "in case of emergency, drop the phone and drive manually."
This signature is false.
you do realize that it's not even possible to do the processing on the Goggles, right?
Is someone holding a gun to your head and forcing you to use Google's services?
Since when is "gun to the head" the standard by which these things are judged anyway?
Is the TSA putting a gun to my head. No. I can choose not to ever leave my house. Is Google putting a gun to my head? No... I can choose not to use the internet.
And if I want to avoid the TSA and Google I guess I might as well live in a cave. But its completely my choice not to live in a cave... nobody put a gun to my head. /facepalm
That said, I for one like using the internet.
And you have to take some pretty significant effort to avoid leaving an imprint of yourself on google's stuff.
You aren't private by default, which is as it should be.
Gotta get paid!
It's not as beta as you think. The google car has already completed 200,000 miles without accident.
And what, exactly, makes you think you have any privacy, or expectation of any privacy, on public roads?
I think the answer has already been given by the SCOTUS in the warrantless GPS tracking case: see here for details. The SCOTUS decided that, even though drivers used public roads, the amount of tracking the police was doing was orders of magnitude above the normal expectation for a public place, both in individual tracking and in the sheer number of trackers that could be active simultaneously. Of course, the decision in this case applies to governments, but I believe the same arguments work identically for the Google car.
Considering how people drive around here I can't see how a driverless car can be any worse...
All the world's a CPU, and all the men and women merely AI agents
Having seen the way most humans drive, I trust the Google'mobile much more than my bio-brethren.
Uh, yeah, wait until version 3 before you put that much faith behind it.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
bin laden also tried living in a cave but he prefered a house. his computer also didn't have access to the internet. and he was still tracked down my google analytics.
No. And I don't use them any more. However that doesn't mean Google has stopped spying on me. Their analytics spyware is embedded in sites all over the net. There's no avoiding it, without giving up the WWW.
Congrats to Google and Nevada for getting this going.
Software is released with no warranty because mostly nobody is willing to pay for better software (except for a few industries like oil, etc, where a software failure can cost billions). Given the options of cheap or good, people will choose cheap.
Smart money is a drunk driver, who does something far too stupid for the computer to compensate for, and dies after hitting the thing.
"Is Google putting a gun to my head? No... I can choose not to use the internet."
better yet, you can use the internet but choose not to use any of googles services
there are lots of search engines....google it if you dont belive me.
Pretty sure the GP meant Project Glass, not Google Googles.
Where have I seen uids just like yours?
Human: "Holy crap! Computer! You're driving in the oncoming lane!" ...
Computer:
Human: "Stop! Abort! Cancel! Computer -- release your controls!"
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J Brahms - Best Of Brahms CD Album
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J Brahms - Best Of Brahms music CD album at CD Universe, Track Listing Symphony No, 4 in E minor, Op, 98 Allegro non troppo; Piano Concerto No, 2 in.
J. Brahms Discography and Music at CD Universe ...
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Low prices on J. Brahms discography of music albums at CD Universe, with top rated service, J. Brahms songs, discography, biography, cover art pictures,
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Shopping results for Brahms CD ...
Busch, Adolf/Münch/Barsin: Busch Spielt Dvorak/Brahms
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Brahms: the complete symphonies / karajan, berlin po..."
What version do you think it's in currently? They've they've clocked nearly 150k miles on this system. For reference, that's over 50 trips from San Fran to NY, NY.
Or if you'd prefer, about 20 complete laps around the perimeter of the lower 48.
This signature is false.
First a horseless carriage, now a driver-less car?
Next thing you know there will be a box that just sits in front of you, with a window to the world!
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
Because it's FREE, just like the USA. So go fuck yourself.
While I don't share the paranoid viewpoints of some, your argument fails from the outset. Google may not be holding a gun to my head, but a poorly designed AI car can certainly cause as much damage as a pistol (if not more) Let alone the damage that could be caused if poorly designed AI cars achieve fleet numbers.
That said, I trust Google on this one (well, Google plus the powers that be along the approval process) Putting out a shoddy product in this venture would cause a Torches and Pitchforks riot the likes of which haven't been seen in my lifetime. And Google knows it.
This signature is false.
Slashdot's under attack from the shills!
http://slashdot.org/~Katakee (#2632925)
http://slashdot.org/~Katakaa (#2632969)
http://slashdot.org/~Vectone (#2633883)
So, why the hell do you use Google's non-working beta software when you can find released software on the Internet? Why the hell do you give them your personal information to sell to advertisers? It's time for *YOU* to step in and do something about them.
Good God man, nobody is forcing Google on you.
+1 Disagree
I bet it will be someone in the Middle East.
As the sign on the back of the vehicle in the article shows it's "self driving". This is not as driverless or autonomous as has been applied to airplanes up till now. If / when cars like these are available to purchase, that's a big difference. This is essentially autopilot, though a pretty advanced one with collision avoidance. Airplanes have had autopilot for decades now, and they are viewed very differently from AUVs or drones.
The State of Nevada does refer to them as autonomous though. The requirement for two people though makes them far from driverless. The NV DMV site says that when these sort of cars are available for public use that motorists will need a special endorsement for their drivers license.
And so you think it'll have exactly the same track record when there's a million of these on the road?
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
What answer? Attaching devices to your car was obviously illegal! How about the real problem: plate readers, which can easily achieve total surveillance of road traffic. But a ruling against those would raise questions about the millions of other government cameras monitoring the public. And at this point questioning those is simply not going to be allowed.
Just like we need to revamp the banking industry and held people responsible for their abusive practices.
I see what you did there. How does it feel to be so completely out of control? To be so angry that you're out of control that you froth and piss and moan, wring your hands and clench your teeth.
And then fire up a browser and use Google's services anyway. Hypocrite.
I would have thought you were a shill, until I heard this was managed by the same system that is managing google voice. Even computers should not be texting while driving.
(Disclaimer: I did not hear that. It was a lame joke.)
I wonder who's going to be immortalised as the first person to be killed by a computer-controlled car?
Anyone know the immortal name of the first person to be killed by a person-controlled car?
Goolash. Another fine dish tainted.
Task Mangler
How long until Google decides all of the self-driving cars they've tested and people have used for 7 years with no problems need a massive overhaul and they decide to completely re-do the API interface unnecessarily, completely breaking usability for everyone, causing the cars to be impractically difficult to use and resulting in possible accidents?
Given Google's track record with the new GMail interface change, I can't say I'd be comfortable sitting in a car running their software, ever. You just don't change software that's business-critical willy nilly like that. You just don't. Ever.
+1 my driving!
Add me to your autonomous driving roundabouts!
My internet is a series of tunnels!
Driver closer, I'm feeling lucky!
Do a barrel roll!
Task Mangler
there are lots of search engines....google it if you dont belive me.
Every time you visit a website with google ads you are tracked.
Every time you visit a site with google analytics you get tracked.
Any time you visit any of a gazillion sites with youtube content embedded.... you get tracked.
Every time you exchange an email with someone who uses gmail, (or any other domain hosted by google apps).
Every time someone you know uploads their contact list with your email address in it to google+ or gmail... they can build a ghost social network profile on you. (Facebook does this too...)
Everytime you phone or text message someone who uses an android... actually... i'm just speculating on that one, but if android users can't review their call history, voice and text messages via their google account today... I'd expect it soon.
Avoiding google on the internet isn't nearly as simple as simply not using their search engine. ... Google it if you don't beleive me.
except gps is probably an integral part of the nav system of the driverless cars, and to avoid and anti privacy claims to use the car it will probably have clause in what ever you sign when you buy the car that you accept their tracking you.
---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
Yes, Mary Ward
About a year ago I recall seeing a youtube video of a guy who happened to be behind one of the google cars as it was driving down the street. Suddenly for no apparent reason the google car slams on its brakes and the guy behind him barely avoided slamming into the rear of him. The google car then continues to drive like nothing happened.
Well... I do; for the US that is.
It was Henry Bliss. He was a real estate agent in NY (no surprise here), killed by a taxicab (still no surprise).
What is interesting, it was an electric car. We got to stay with gas just for the sake of children. http://www.wired.com/thisdayintech/2011/09/0913first-us-pedestrian-killed-by-car/
As long as you carry a million dollar insurance bond? Somehow I don't think that will cut it. New business opportunity, instead of itinerants washing peoples car windows they can offer to drive them to a location of the vehicle owners choice.
No extra insurance, use cell phone, sleep and, drink what ever you like. Now a lot of itinerants have mobile phones, as it is their only hope of getting any kind of work, so web site to book cleaner drivers at specific locations and specific times and minimum wage auto drive is achieved.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
Why would he be particularly immortalized? For example if you're looking for the first human to be killed by robots, you don't have to wait for "I, robot" to become reality as that happened already back in 1979. Doesn't mean that robots have went away, people are quite regularly maimed or killed for neglecting safety zones, getting caught in presses and grinders and such. My prediction is that the first person killed by a computer-controlled car will be a Darwin Award winner that would have been killed by a human driver too, had there been one. Don't get me wrong, a computer-controller car won't be better than the people who programmed it and it surely will have bugs, but that one can be refined and get better whereas today every year we let loose a new generation of unskilled teens on the road.
Perhaps the best analogy is healthcare, you know those life-and-death situations you'd think keep everyone on their toes constantly. Well, nurses and doctors are humans too and they make mistakes, not often but they do. Electronic systems that make sure people always get the right medication in the right dosage at the right time, that they don't get dangerous combinations or medicines they're allergic to has helped save lives. Start counting the times the system corrects the nurses versus the times the nurses corrects the system and you'll find out who is actually the more important part of the two.
And that's why I think computer driven cars will win out in the end, they will always stick to protocol. They'll obey all speed limits, keep distance to those in front, always change lanes cleanly, always signal, always yield, always drive defensively and eventually all the accidents that don't happen because a human was tired or angry or sloppy or fiddling with the radio or his phone or whatnot will outperform the "creative" thinking capability of humans. Our ability to make good split-second decisions in an emergency situation is overrated, not to mention the choices are rather limited to break, turn and possibly in a few situations give gas. Many people panic and actually make it worse than just slamming the brakes.
I expect these cars also will have the ability to record near-accidents which you can use for analysis, you don't actually have to have an accident. Here we just managed to perform an emergency brake for a pedestrian who suddenly walked out into the road, could we have done better? Was our response optimal given the data we had? I see a whole new level of preventive improvement possible here. There's no significant learning for me from having one incident every decade, but if you can collect thousands of situations from millions of drivers it can learn to handle the 0.01% situations that we never have any training for or guidelines for what to do.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
I hope the FTC takes interest and clamps down hard on such practices.
I hope not. FTC regulations would lock out smaller players and strengthen larger ones.
It should have one person and a dog... The dog is to bite the driver's hands if he ever reaches for the steering wheel.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
BS. My business would definitely pay for software that was guaranteed to work error free or at least guaranteed not to produce incorrect results.
150k miles, they say, under conditions we don't know but they controlled.
As long as you carry a million dollar insurance bond? Somehow I don't think that will cut it
That bond, and this licensing for the car, is only for *testing* autonomous vehicles on public roads. AFAIK, there is no licensing for non-testing common purposes yet.
Aren't all cars computer controlled to some level. What is fly by wire ? There is GPS, obstacle avoidance ... What about Volvos embarrassing video
Effectively creating a moral hazard where people will less likely to be be careful in how they drive or walk.
Pedestrian Detection with Full Auto Brake
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Voz4dosVGSM
But in the first demo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6ZwS9izm4E
Generally, an emergency would be that last time you should take over. A production quality auto-driving car is going to be better at handling an emergency than 90% of people. And many emergencies can happen to fast for a human to change focus like that.
Climate Progress - Hell and High Water
No, I don't, because I opt out through the use of Ghostery (I do use GMail, though, but all those parts are exactly identical to any other third-party email host). As far as the Android thing goes: I'm pretty sure someone would have noticed if they did that. You know, given that they make the source available and you can get root access on many of the phones and all that.
"None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
to avoid and anti privacy claims to use the car it will probably have clause in what ever you sign when you buy the car that you accept their tracking you.
While likely true, that doesn't immunize google, or anyone else, from criticism for doing it.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
My personal feeling is that insurance rates are going to drive the adoption of self driving cars. Once the insurance companies realize that they have a lower error rate than humans (never tired, drunk, distracted, etc) and that they can tell who was at fault in an accident (almost certainly the other guy) you'll see serious incentives to keep cars in auto-drive.
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
I wonder who's going to be immortalised as the first person to be killed by a computer-controlled car?
John Connor?
No, I don't, because I opt out through the use of Ghostery
Which aligns with what i said -- that you have to make a pretty serious effort to avoid being tracked.
(I do use GMail, though, but all those parts are exactly identical to any other third-party email host)
Yes and no. Mostly no. When you sign up with gmail you add your data points to the largest advertising and data mining company on the planet. They have their tendrils in everything.
Your data point is integrated with everything else.
When you sign up for a free webmail account with rinkydink-hosting-inc your datapoint is all they have to work with.
Even if rinkydink were every bit as dedicated to invading your privacy as google is, they simply don't have anywhere near the same reach.
Scale matters. Being caught on some tourists vacation photos is irrelevant. But having every camera in the country send its pictures to one database with facial recognition is a massive invasion of privacy.
Rinkydink webmail is a tourists camera. Google is the country spanning camera infrastructure. Don't pretend they are the same just because they both took your picture.
and if it is an industry standard to require it than they will be the same as everyone else so critising them would be pointless
---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
and if it is an industry standard to require it than they will be the same as everyone else so critising them would be pointless
(A) No it wouldn't. Just because everybody else is jumping off the bridge doesn't mean you have to agree to jump too.
(B) There is no industry for driverless cars yet.
It is called no-script download it and use it and you wont have any trouble avoiding google's nefarious monitoring. If you miss the functionality that google provides then kill yourself please. No one is going to provide all the functionality and ability to generate revenue on free content without something in return.
And, as mentioned above:
http://slashdot.org/~Jamestos/ (2633863)
http://slashdot.org/~Miskaata/ (2633855)
You can (pay for people to) formally prove the code works (according to the specification, that is; getting the specification right is a different problem). It's expensive and probably not worth it if the critical code is not very, very short/simple. An alternative is to run different (and independent, made by a separate team) implementations on different hardware, hoping the majority (e.g. 2 of 3) will get the (same) correct answer, or at least not give the exact same wrong result (i.e. it's the same technique used to detect hardware faults).
I am all for automating stuff that can help you while driving, but what is the point of a driver-less car? If it is for safety, I don't see it working. What does the car do when it doesn't know what to do? Just stop? - that might be the worst choice. You would have to change the road infrastructure completely, and at that point it would probably be safer to not allow human drivers.
And by "always" you mean "until a manufacturer realizes that you can get ahead by trusting other automated cars to err on the side of caution", right? And pretty soon we're having automated cars trying to drive as agressively as possible as yet another demonstration of the tragedy of the commons.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
I understand your aversion to Google knowing everything about you, but you can soon lay your fears to rest. Once CISPA is law, you'll have absolutely no privacy anymore, even if you totally avoid Google. Companies will have total legal shielding about sharing your information with any government agency that asks for it. Even your local dog catcher will be able to find out anything they want about you.
Feel better now? No more worries about Google!
When you want something built, come see me. If you want correct grammar and spelling, get a F*ing liberal arts student.
That sounds like the opposite of being immortalised.
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
They'll obey all speed limits, keep distance to those in front, always change lanes cleanly, always signal, always yield, always drive defensively
Will they *finally* get rid of gawker slowdowns and sun-up/sunset slowdowns too?
I used to think that every time someone posted "shill", etc they were just being paranoid but seriously, this is just now getting beyond a joke.
You have 6 posts - all of them anti Google, on a brand new account. Honestly; how dumb do you astroturfers think people are?? If you're getting paid to do this, you're wasting your client's money. At least try and be vaguely opaque about what you're doing. Posts like this are an insult to our collective intelligence and a complete waste of your time and resources.
It also lowers the general opinion of the likely candidates for cliency (i.e. Microsoft), so it's not only failed in the primary purpose of making people question Google - it's also made us more likely to automatically defend Google simply to shut you down and it's also made people even more distrustful of Microsoft (because it's easy to put 1 and 1 together and notice the plethora of anti-Google posts coupled with the pro Windows phone posts from similar accounts).
Please stop this crap because you're wasting everyone's time and damaging your own client in the process.
How would you like it if we put you in jail for blantantly obvious and abusive use of the Internet?
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
Please do.
Starting with here.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
If there wasn't this requirement, one guy could conceivably monitor the instruments and not pay attention to the road since the car is driving itself.
Yet half the drivers on the roads in Las Vegas, Nevada are TALKING ON THEIR CELL PHONE instead of paying attention to the roads! Even after it was made illegal! And many of them can't even maintain a normal speed or sometimes even lane position! Nevermind being able to react to anything around them.
The penalty is a fine, but perhaps it should be having the phone inserted via one's rectum. (*)
Scratch that, too many weirdos here would like that.
(*)
"Hey that driver with the cell phone just crashed into an innocent person.. They should shove that phone up his ass"
"You mean rectum".
"Rectum? Damn near killed 'em"
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
You don't have much to worry about, unless you own a petrol station. Think about that car going in to fill up. Without a driver, who is going to pay the bill?
An improbably sexy researcher chick. Saw it on NCIS.
150k miles on real roads.
Help I am stuck in a signature factory!
People have been tracked through methods since way before 'google it' became a catch phrase..You seem to be against the system, this differs from being against the top players in the system. On your thinking, you simply cannot exists because everyone is tracked, one way or another, you cannot remove yourself from this system without very drastic changes to lifestyle, the internet being the least of your problems
Infact, the internet can be completely anonymous if you know what your doing; but im not here to give a education course on privacy. im here to say
Tracking is a reality of commerce now, well it always has been, the internet makes it easier...you cannot do commerce and not be apart of this system.
and
You can safely and anonymously search the web, use e-mail, and other legal and illegal uses.
Oh man, using an infinity symbol probably seemed such a cool idea when the high tech-ness of it all impressed the authorities. But you know it's going to be a pain when the next generation of even more high tech even more whizzy road vehicles comes along. Oh heck, they'll need plates with "Infinity plus one" . Doh! Bad idea :-)
Ahhh, the kilomile. Glad to see metric catching on.
For those interested there's 52 800 000 centifeet in a kilomile, and 83 milliinches in a microfoot.
Wonder how these cars perform if you need to find parking space in a city or crowded parking lot, with other manned and unmanned vehicles competing.
The 2nd person is there to help disassemble and hide the car in case it startles a horse.
But that wasn't that car per se! It was a program hidden in a hidden partition of the BIOS...or at least so I remember it...well at least that time they didn't try to partition the RAM!
Can you give us a car-analogy for that?
Why would he be particularly immortalized? For example if you're looking for the first human to be killed by robots, you don't have to wait for "I, robot" to become reality as that happened already back in 1979.
Perhaps you don't know what immortalized means. You've already demonstrated why that person would likely be immortalized. You've found an article about the first person to be killed by a robot. The first person killed by an automated car will likely also have many an article written about him.
Can you give us a car-analogy for that?
According to Google; 150 000 mi = 241 401.6 kilometers
According to Wikipedia; A new-style VW beetle is 4.129m (4129mm)
A bit of calculation shows that this Google Autonomous Car has driven the length of about 58.5 million VW beetles
And by "always" you mean "until a manufacturer realizes that you can get ahead by trusting other automated cars to err on the side of caution", right? And pretty soon we're having automated cars trying to drive as agressively as possible as yet another demonstration of the tragedy of the commons.
How would they "get ahead" by doing that? I don't see why programming your car to go faster than the speed limit, or not doing ANY of the things parent mentioned, could benefit the company in any way. My guess would be that it would be illegal to sell a car that did that (similar to how it is illegal to do a lot of those things for human drivers), so advertising that your car did that would be out of the question. It likely wouldn't be any cheaper to design that way.
If you're talking about skimping on collision detection/avoidance, then after their first car gets into an accident that could have been avoided, you can bet that the company will be losing enough business to make up for any money they saved by doing that.
So what is to gain for the company, again?
Fortunately beta car are not allowed on roads, or else every car manufacturer would claim their car is a beta version and get away with it. Go shill elsewhere.
You're completely and entirely incorrect. Manufacturers test pre-production vehicles on roads, and that's exactly what Google's doing here.
Every time you visit a website with google ads you are tracked.
You mean those Google ads that I block using Adblock Plus?
Every time you visit a site with google analytics you get tracked.
You mean that Google Analytics junk that I block using NoScript?
Again, who forced you to use Gmail or buy an Android phone? Nobody. Your problem isn't that your data is being mined, it's that other people don't care as much as you do. Boo fucking hoo. Keep ranting on the interwebs, though, I'm sure that you'll soon convince everyone how evil Google is...
Avoiding Google on the internet is as simple as installing a couple plugins and not using any of their services. You're not helpless and you know it. Instead of ranting, instead, why not instruct people how to use those tools?
How many idiots does the RMV employ that they would think "Hm, you know what the roads in the US need more of? Driverless cars. What could possibly go wrong?".
I'm going to assume that a lot of money exchanged hands between Google and Nevada.
While the worries are somewhat understandable, I think people are becoming a little hysterical over this. There have been dangerous "death-trap" cars on the roads since the beginning of the automobile. Clearly it is a danger that society is willing to accept, and AI controlled vehicles will be no different. People were terrified of the first cars on the road, too, and we laugh about that shit now, just as I'm sure our children and grand-children will laugh hysterically at the thought of society being terrified of a computer-driven car...
Outside of all the anti-Google hysteria (which frankly has nothing to do with the feasibility of an A.I. driver), the arguments are pretty much baseless. We trust computers to fly us around in metal tubes 35,000 feet above the earth at speeds of hundreds of miles an hour and are comfortable with the fact that, statistically speaking, we're going to be just fine. Of course it needs a little work before it's perfected, but nothing is ever going to be 100% perfect. In my mind, the most important thing of all is the ability for the human being sitting in the driver's seat to over-ride the AI immediately in the event of an emergency, which I'm 100% positive was built in from day one because to do otherwise would be completely retarded (and Google is not retarded). As with auto-pilot on planes (or even cruise control on a car), auto-drive will probably be most utilized on long haul, highway driving, something that I think would be trivial for AI to do compared to, say, navigating the inner-city dodging pedestrians and cyclists and double-parked delivery vehicles and what-not.
Do you drive on the same roads as everybody else? The ones with cars that have 400+ hp just to go to the store? The ones that have had their ECUs reprogrammed or rechipped to allow greater boost or better acceleration?
Shortly after automated cars are permitted hit the roads, third parties will have devices that will allow occupants of the vehicle (can't call them drivers any more) to override speed and distance allowances either because people want to get to their destinations faster or just because they can.
The state previously outlined that companies that want to test such vehicles will need an insurance bond of $1 million and must provide detailed outlines of where they plan to test it and under what conditions.
I think a million google'mobiles will have a much better track record than a million humans.
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Instead of one unknown on the road, you'll have two. That first year is going to be rocky.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
We trust computers to fly us around in metal tubes 35,000 feet above the earth at speeds of hundreds of miles an hour and are comfortable with the fact that, statistically speaking, we're going to be just fine. Of course it needs a little work before it's perfected, but nothing is ever going to be 100% perfect.>
Exactly, in the case for self-driving cars, the AI just needs to be statistically as safe or safer than human drivers for me to accept them. Actually, considering the advantages, I would even accept almost as safe as human drivers. I wouldn't be surprised if by the time these cars hit the mass market one of the three would be true.
c.f. I, Robot.
Yes, I drive those roads. It probably won't be all that common. Just think it through all the way (I thought like you did, and then I followed my thoughts to their conclusion). It probably will (and should) be illegal to make those modifications to your cars "control system." If it is decided that all automatic cars should go no faster than whatever the speed limit is and there is a way the cars know this limit, then making modifications that bypass this will likely be illegal, as the only purpose is to break the law. So, selling anything that does that will ALSO be illegal.
These systems also will probably not be easy enough to reprogram/hack that everybody could do it. It may not be particularly difficult, but most people aren't particularly good at that kind of thing, anyway. This means the vast majority of people likely won't be able to do it without purchasing something or having someone else do it.
This means that it will only be those that CAN do it on their own and those who purchase these things in the black market who are able to do this. Which makes it more risky than just speeding. And also easy to detect (if the speed limit is 75 and your auto-car is going 85, you've broken the speed limit AND you've modified your car). Yes, there will be those that do it, but because of the increased risk AND increased difficulty of doing it/having it done, the percentage of people who do it will be much smaller than those who have things reprogrammed in their car now (or just purchase fast cars).
Logic isn't your strong suit, is it? Any AI Cars that join the ranks won't be in addition to other cars, they'll be INSTEAD of other cars. Google isn't going to just put a million empty cars out cruising the roads for kicks.
Besides, there's already 200 million licensed drivers in the US, and well over 250 million cars on the US roads. If/when a couple thousand AI Cars get added to the mix, it'll be such a minor addition that you'd likely never even see one.
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Logic isn't your strong suit, is it? Any AI Cars that join the ranks won't be in addition to other cars, they'll be INSTEAD of other cars.
This 'logic' only works if the AI drivers drive exactly the same. It doesn't and they won't There will almost certainly need to be a software update or two once they start becoming fairly common. Additionally, people will have to learn to drive with these guys on the road. Afterall, by your own admission, they must drive differently than humans, otherwise they couldn't achieve that goal of being better than humans on the road.
They've earned your hope, but they haven't earned your faith. They still have a big test to pass.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
Is the TSA putting a gun to my head. No. I can choose not to ever leave my house. Is Google putting a gun to my head? No... I can choose not to use the internet.
You are comparing apples and oranges. You are not given a real choice with the TSA. Considering how integral flight is to today's society, the choice between not flying and getting felt up and/or irradiated is not a real choice. You can't go to another airport/terminal that is willing to treat its customers better because the TSA is government enforced. If you remove the requirement, the TSA would probably disappear and be replace with private counterparts that treat the airlines' customers much more reasonably. If enough people feel like they need to be felt up in order to feel safe, airports will probably start getting sectioned off so those people can go through separate security lines and use separate planes in a separate parts of the airport.
Google's services are optional and easy to avoid. Most if not all of their services you can get from other companies. Nothing is forcing companies to collect your data. They could choose to use a different business model is they thought they could get a reasonable chunk of the market. You do not have to stop using the Internet to avoid Google. Currently, you do have to avoid the airport in order to avoid the TSA.
You aren't private by default, which is as it should be.
I will agree that privacy should be default. Companies should not be collecting data on you without your express permission. That said, they shouldn't have give you service either.
Fuck off, bonch.
You are assuming that the facts matter. In the case of a computer-driven car funded by a huge company versus a little old lady (or kid), the jury will find for the plaintiff.
You mean those Google ads that I block using Adblock Plus?
You mean that Google Analytics junk that I block using NoScript?
Thanks captain obvious! I said avoiding google took effort above and beyond simply not going to their website... which you just confirmed.
Again, who forced you to use Gmail or buy an Android phone?
I don't. But many of the people i communicate with do. Are you actually suggesting I not communicate them?
Avoiding Google on the internet is as simple as installing a couple plugins
And a browser that can use those plugins, on a platform that can run that browser.
Do you think the average joe at work gets to decide which firefox plugins are installed, or whether firefox is installed at all?
And what about mobile access from your phone?
and not using any of their services.
Or communicating with anyone who uses those services. But hey, that's simple too.
Your problem isn't that your data is being mined, it's that other people don't care as much as you do.
If someone wants to be data mined, I'm fine with that. But it shouldn't be "on by default", and opting out shouldn't be a game of cat and mouse with the people trying to track you.
"Oh, just install this blocker, and that blocker, and this plugin, and don't go there, use this proxy for that, never ever use your real name here, and read this news site so you know what you'll have to do tomorrow too "... is the completely wrong approach to dealing with the issue.
Its idiotic on the same level as suggesting that we shouldn't pass laws against stalking because people who don't like to be stalked should just avoid the people stalking them, hire a body guard to keep stalkers away, and put on a blindfold and headphones so they can't see or hear them.
Problem solved. Its simple. /sarcasm
I'd rather live in a world where people
Quick question: they like to advertise that they have only had once accident, and it was when someone hit them from behind. How many accidents would we have expected the cars to have experienced? Answer: 0
According to the FARS, we expect about 1 fatality per 100 million vehicle miles. According to NY state, there are 1-3 accidents per million vehicle miles (I could not find california numbers). So, talk to me when they have a couple million vehicle miles.
I think Truckers will now be replaced by their robotic overlords. Can avoid all the problems at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truck_driver#Truck_driver_problems_.28U.S..29
I'm sure there will be a few that can't currently drive that'll get a AI car to drive them.
Your 'logic' assumes all humans drive exactly the same (we don't), and that all AI cars were a distinct departure requiring a vastly different protocol for working amongst (they don't).
As far as I can tell, from the perspective of a fellow motorist, the only two differences between this car and any other vehicle on the road are the drivers' hands not being on the wheel (which I see every day anyway) and the additional sensors (which might be a little distracting but no moreso than a normal car with anything on a roof-rack.) Are there other factors I'm missing? Is there something a Google'mobile does that the average sedan cannot? Do the brake lights and turn signals operate differently? Does it read and react to street signs and stop lights differently than a human?
End result: really, we'll just have to wait and see. But while some people express concern, distrust and general FUD, I approach this concept from a perspective of optimism. Even if it doesn't work, at least someone is trying something crazy and out there. A.I. cars were a DARPA pipedream less than a decade back. Welcome to the future, bitches. If all DARPA Challenges hit viable solutions this quickly, we'd have freaking androids before my kids graduate High School
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Your 'logic' assumes all humans drive exactly the same (we don't)....
No, it doesn't. I will explain in the next bit.
As far as I can tell, from the perspective of a fellow motorist, the only two differences between this car and any other vehicle on the road are the drivers' hands not being on the wheel (which I see every day anyway)...
That's actually a pretty big difference. Even if these cars drive just like a human does (i.e. with tinted windows, nobody would ever know the difference...), just the idea that that's a computer controlled car will affect other drivers. I'm willing to bet that these cars will advertised that they're automated all over the car. Getting back to my first point, in the beginning it'll be "us vs. them". That lack of trust will make a huge difference. As it is, we already adjust our driving based on what sort of car we see on the road.
Are there other factors I'm missing? Is there something a Google'mobile does that the average sedan cannot?
When large numbers of them start appearing on the roads, it certainly will. I'll put it this way: Just driving into a city I've never been in before requires adjustment to the way the locals drive. Google hasn't gotten to this point in the testing yet.
End result: really, we'll just have to wait and see. But while some people express concern, distrust and general FUD...
I think a little clarification is in order. I am not anti-Google, I am not anti-Google Car, I'm not even pessimistic. There is, however, a difference between optimism and blind faith. I think they are making good progress and I am excited about it. What I don't think.. or actually I'll put it another way, Google hasn't proven this to me yet, that when these things really start hitting the roads that it'll all go smooth as silk and the first accident won't cause a huge media kerfuffle. They're not doing anything wrong, but they will still have to evolve their product. I'm confident that they'll get there and we'll finally have our self-driving cars, I just don't think they're going to get there without doing more revisions. Frankly, there's nothing wrong with me having this point of view.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
Ironically, if you use Google.com to search for "search engine", the first thing it takes you to is Dogpile.com.
Proof:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=search+engine&l=1
Nobodies Prefect
Tidbits for Techs Technology Blog
They are alpha versions, not beta.
Now I see where our assumptions differ. You assume that Google will emblazon their G'cars (as I will call them) with stickers: "AI CAR!! LOOK MA NO HANDS! WOO HOO," and put some geeky references like "Pod Bay Doors" and "I'm afraid I can't do that"
Where I assume the opposite: that Google will take every possible option to minimize the existence of these cars for as long as possible. I base this assumption on their track record. Though, the cat is a bit outta the bag now, so my assumption might not hold up. If anything, I think the biggest danger around these cars is just that: around these cars. The cars themselves could be perfectly safe, and would still cause plenty of accidents and traffic jams as rubbernecks try to sneak a peak.
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What is your basis for that assumption?
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
For one thing, what "the average joe at work" does is none of my concern. My privacy concerns as far as my boss seeing that I'm surfing the internet when I'm supposed to be working far outweigh anything I'm worried about as far as Google goes. Perhaps the "average joe at work" should be more concerned with not fucking around on the internet all day, especially if their activities are secretive and/or sensitive enough to actually give a fuck. The "at work" argument immediately goes out the window.
Being stalked by someone is so totally removed from being tracked by Google that it's completely ridiculous to equate them and expect to be taken seriously, not by me anyway. I've actually been stalked by an ex-girlfriend to the point where it took me literally calling the cops right in front of her to get her to leave me the fuck alone and stay away from me. Is Google calling you 38 times a day and filling your voice mail box with alternating "I love you/I hate you" messages? Are they leaving notes on your car while you're at work? Are they going after other people you may interact with to tell them to find their own goddamned man? Are they calling you from outside your house at 11 o'clock at night telling you that they know you're home because the lights are on and you need to come right down right this second to talk to them or they're going to commit suicide in your driveway and it's going to be all your fault? You're not fucking being stalked.
You're not helpless. The world is not out to get you, and neither is Google. Bitching about tracking cookies when you know how trivial it is for you to circumvent them yourself is a waste of energy. As for communicating with others that don't care, then I guess you've got a fucking decision to make, huh? You're still not helpless. Nobody is forcing you to do anything, you just don't want to deal with the inconvenience around actually doing so. Boo fucking hoo. Maybe it's time to dump the internet entirely? It's the only way to be sure...
Under conditions we don't know but they controlled.
So they controlled the real roads? Please take off your tinfoil hat.
Help I am stuck in a signature factory!
Negative, "alpha" versions are test mules, the automotive industry has described pre-production vehicles as the "beta" versions of cars over and over again.
Might want to brush up on your reading comprehension. Check the post to which you replied. Pay careful attention for a sentence starting with "I base this assumption on ..." and you might have your answer.
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Yeah... my non-brushed-up reading comprehension not only shows not only that you don't believe your own assumption, but the very article you linked to have a very clear photo of a poorly disguised car with nobody in the driver's seat. That's why I don't understand your rationale.
At first I thought maybe I just missed a step in your line of thought but it's pretty clear right now that you're just backpedaling.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
Harder to notice was that the person at the wheel was not actually driving.
The car is a project of Google, which has been working in secret but in plain view on vehicles that can drive themselves
seven test cars have driven 1,000 miles without human intervention and more than 140,000 miles with only occasional human control
At the point when the article was written 18 months ago, they'd already clocked all those miles, in secret, lending credence to the notion that they enjoy anonymity in this affair. There was slightly more fanfare for the current announcement, simply because they're getting a much bigger sandbox to play in. One does not post a million dollar insurance bond for the entire state of Nevada without someone taking notice.
Also, if you'll look at the full picture of the test vehicle you'll easily see that a minimalist approach was taken to the modifications. The camera on the roof and off-center license plate are the only real hints that something is amiss. And with Google already known for cars with cameras on top, the camera atop the G'car looks rather subdued. As for the rest of your strawman about "a poorly disguised car with no driver," the picture at the top of the article was obviously a mock-up for the photo-op. They've said quite clearly that every test was conducted with both a driver and passenger.
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At the point when the article was written 18 months ago, they'd already clocked all those miles, in secret, lending credence to the notion that they enjoy anonymity in this affair. There was slightly more fanfare for the current announcement, simply because they're getting a much bigger sandbox to play in. One does not post a million dollar insurance bond for the entire state of Nevada without someone taking notice.
You're (still...) talking about them being discreet while testing the vehicle. Which, really, should be filed under D for Duh. It is completely immaterial. In fact, now you can expect everybody to see that it's self-driving car because Google's running around tooting its own horn about it.
So... I ask again: Why do you think the final product wouldn't boldly announce that it's running on auto-pilot? Bear in mind, it won't necessarily be Google's decision.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
The citation on the wikipedia article seems to dead. I tried reading more about preproduction cars and none of them seem to talk about Joe Dane being able to buy/borrow one. Take the how stuff works article It talks only about testing, in secrecy, in extreme locations. Nothing else. Is there a different source that talks about these. I am genuinely curious.
Likely true, and a big reason why I'd like to see some kind of special legal framework for civil suits against the manufacturer in the case of self-driving cars.
Suppose Google builds a fleet of self driving cars and puts them out on the market and captures 90% market share. Suppose that due to a design flaw that could have been prevented with better diligence those cars kill 100 people per year, but those are the only accidents the cars have. In a court they'd be treated as mass murders, but in reality they would have eliminated one of the highest causes of death in the US (32k people per year - same order of magnitude as things like diabetes). The ubiquitous use of self-driving cars would likely greatly reduce emissions and gasoline use as well. They'd have the potential to greatly reduce the amount of paved land as well - all good for the environment, and reducing our dependence on foreign oil. They'd be able to make much better use of electrical power as well.
How is all of this possible? Self-driving cars don't need to stop at intersections to safely manage traffic, can dynamically adjust the number of travel lanes in each direction, can park themselves someplace other than directly in front of the store you're visiting in, can deliver packages on their own, can form convoys to minimize drag, can potentially complete an entire trip with only an application of regenerative brakes at the destination, and plan all deceleration for coasting or minimal regenerative braking. They can easily function as taxis or operate in other kinds of ride-share modes. And, of course, they are much less likely to crash into things. All of this adds up to a huge increase in efficiency around the use of the roads in general.
If automated cars become ubiquitous there will be all kinds of incentives to remove the ability to operate around non-automated cars. That will include stuff like getting rid of traffic control devices like signs and signals. Your car will be given reservations for the space it uses, and if it tries to go faster it will just find other cars blocking the way as everybody drives a foot apart. About the only thing such modifications are likely to accomplish is getting people hurt. More likely than not cars that don't interact properly with the network will simply be flagged for repairs, and if the car doesn't drive itself to the shop as ordered while you're at work, the police will show up and impound it.
Cars will operate much more like aircraft with coordinated control. What happens if a pilot decides to cut in line when taxing to the runway, or when on approach? They'd be warned at best (assume a mistake), and if their actions are remotely dangerous they'd be immediately visited by the FAA on arrival. Ever notice how at the airport planes don't jockey for position? They're simply told where to go, and who yields to who. Everybody just parks nicely with safe distances as they queue up at the runway, knowing that the controller will get everybody there in due time. The unlucky plane sent halfway around the airport to ease traffic just goes along with it, since they have absolutely no choice in the matter. Since planes aren't fully automated, mistakes still happen, but they only rarely cause injury. And of course, in a fully automated world there will still be breakdowns, but we'll have to accept that the system that saves 10s of thousands of lives per year might still miss a few.
They controlled what roads, what time of day, and weather conditions they would allow the robocar to drive in. I very much doubt their driving conditions closely represented the variety of conditions a production would have to operate in.
I have no ability to portend the future, except to examine trends of the past. Google has a history of discretion in regards to their auto-car.
If you've a more reliable method, I'm all ears. What makes you think the final product (if there ever is a final product) will be some great ostentatious thing?
Also examine trends of hybrid cars. The only one that's somewhat noticeable is the Prius, and that's mostly because it's an entirely new car with a new body-style. Every other hybrid (Camry, Civic, Altima, Volt, etc.) only has a small logo to identify its hybrid nature. If you think Google (or whoever is eventually in charge) is after sexy sexy P.R. and that's the principle factor to make a hypothetical Auto-auto stand out... I'd say you've already been proven wrong. Any one of those Hybrid-making companies could etch great big leaves in their chassis, or make major modifications to the frames so they get recognized and soak up all the green PR. Hell, the Volt has received so much pomp and circumstance that I half expected it to leave a trail of flowers in its wake... actually saw one a few weeks ago. Pulled up behind her at a stop light. Other than the badge, there was really no way to tell it from every other average sedan at the light.
P.S. before you say "Tesla roadster," that's noticeable for being an extremely rare high end roadster, the electric component is tertiary at best. No different that seeing a Bugatti Veyron or Maserati Granturismo pulling up next to you.
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For one thing, what "the average joe at work" does is none of my concern.
because the only one in the universe that deserves protection is you?
My privacy concerns as far as my boss seeing that I'm surfing the internet when I'm supposed to be working far outweigh anything I'm worried about as far as Google goes.
a) Some of us browse the internet in the course of actually working.
b) Some of us can actually make a personal call, write a personal reminder on a post it note, or look something up on the web without getting fired for stealing from the company.
c) Your boss, if they thought about it, might not be too keen on google profiling his employees while they are supposed to be working. Google clearly places value on the data they are collecting from his employees activities... but he's not being compensated for it. Now Google is "stealing" from him too... ;) ...actually been stalked by an ex-girlfriend to the point ...
I'm genuinely sorry to hear about that. But you must understand that its not a valid argument. The fact that you encountered a pretty extreme case, doesn't somehow invalidate less extreme cases.
If I say my ipod was stolen on the bus... you don't get to counter with "well someone stole my entire life savings, which is so totally removed from what happened to you...".... that may well be true, and it's certainly far worse, but I'm still the victim of theft.
Google has a history of discretion in regards to their auto-car.
They have a history of discretion in regards to testing their auto-car. This is an important distinction, I'm not making it to be contrarian.
What makes you think the final product (if there ever is a final product) will be some great ostentatious thing?
I think the first issue is one of liability. It is more than likely that if these vehicles are allowed to share the road with human drivers they will have to be clearly marked as running on 'auto-pilot'. This wouldn't be a Google decision, it'd be up to whatever regulations are put into place onces the states start figuring out how they're going to license these things.
The second issue is simply marketing. We'll talk about that next.
Also examine trends of hybrid cars. The only one that's somewhat noticeable is the Prius, and that's mostly because it's an entirely new car with a new body-style.
This is just plain not true. When the first hybrid came out they not only gave the body an unusual design, they also buried the rear tires half-way just to grab eyeballs. Once the word 'hybrid' got out there, they dialed it back a bit, mainly because cars still have to look attractive. That distinctive covering of the tire has become an eyesore now. Heh. Another thing to think about is that Google will *not* be manufacturing this car. They'll partner up with an auto manufacturer and... guess what? Toyota or Chevy or whoever ends up inking the deal, they're going to want to make sure people see their cars on the road just like Honda did with the Insight.
Three's no way an auto company is going to build the dream car everybody's been waiting 50+ years for and not go nuts marketing the hell out of it. That's why I'm having so much difficulty understanding where you're coming from on that.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
They have a history of discretion in regards to testing their auto-car. This is an important distinction, I'm not making it to be contrarian.
What is their history regarding the production of the G'cars? Wait, there isn't one. Until we have some data on their habits in that matter, we can't simply assume one way or the other. In the meantime, I'll use the data currently available (testing data), which, while imperfect, at least exists.
I think the first issue is one of liability.
I was kinda thinking the same thing, but came to a different conclusion. As I mentioned before, the most dangerous thing about the cars will be the looky-loos trying to see it. To that end, I would expect an insurance company to require a modicum of tact and discretion.
It is more than likely that if these vehicles are allowed to share the road with human drivers they will have to be clearly marked as running on 'auto-pilot'. This wouldn't be a Google decision, it'd be up to whatever regulations are put into place once the states start figuring out how they're going to license these things.
Have you seen the "new driver" or "elderly driver" logo's that Japanese drivers are required to display? While noticeable, they're hardly gaudy. I would expect something similar for any required markings on an Auto-Pilot car. Also, see the old "HOV APPROVED" stickers that used to adorn hybrids here in the states. Clearly visible, not ridiculously so.
When the first hybrid came out they not only gave the body an unusual design, they also buried the rear tires half-way just to grab eyeballs. Once the word 'hybrid' got out there, they dialed it back a bit, mainly because cars still have to look attractive. That distinctive covering of the tire has become an eyesore now. Heh. Another thing to think about is that Google will *not* be manufacturing this car. They'll partner up with an auto manufacturer and... guess what? Toyota or Chevy or whoever ends up inking the deal, they're going to want to make sure people see their cars on the road just like Honda did with the Insight.
Three's no way an auto company is going to build the dream car everybody's been waiting 50+ years for and not go nuts marketing the hell out of it. That's why I'm having so much difficulty understanding where you're coming from on that.
Again, same data, disparate conclusions. I didn't see the half-covered tires as all that crazy. Less eye-grabbing than the yellow "HOV APPROVED" stickers that hybrids used to receive. And you're confusing marketing with road-recognition. Again look at the Volt. There have been hundreds of articles about that car. It's a whole new breed of hybrid, a hybrid-hybrid if you will (half Leaf, half Prius) and for all the pomp and circumstance, one could pull up next to you, and you wouldn't know it.
All of my assumptions are based on facts: how Google has behaved with regards to this car in the past, how various governments have marked specialty vehicles (both here in the US and abroad) and how car manufacturers have treated "special" cars in the past. Really, I just don't see how a hybrid with covered tires translates into an unsafe auto-pilot car.
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Was out of town for a few days... missed you :)
I hope you had a good trip. (no sarcasm or anything like that intended.)
In the meantime, I'll use the data currently available (testing data), which, while imperfect, at least exists.
The thing is, though, your rationale cancels itself out. They're not market testing, they're "Don't kill humans!" testing.
I was kinda thinking the same thing, but came to a different conclusion. As I mentioned before, the most dangerous thing about the cars will be the looky-loos trying to see it. To that end, I would expect an insurance company to require a modicum of tact and discretion.
I could see somebody standing up and making that argument, it's not a bad one, but I don't think it'd play out for two reasons: 1. In the US, we LOVE having people to blame . We're very lawsuit happy and Google has deep pockets. People will want to be able to blame Google if there's a crash. 2. People want to know to stay clear of these cars. I wouldn't be surprised AT ALL if these cars had to have a third different-colored tail light to indicate it's on auto-pilot.
Have you seen the "new driver" or "elderly driver" logo's that Japanese drivers are required to display? While noticeable, they're hardly gaudy. I would expect something similar for any required markings on an Auto-Pilot car. Also, see the old "HOV APPROVED" stickers that used to adorn hybrids here in the states. Clearly visible, not ridiculously so.
I think I'm misreading your post. You're supporting my point.
I didn't see the half-covered tires as all that crazy.
They were. The word 'futuristic' floated around a lot when describing that car. I also recall a couple of times I read about how that was a lesson in branding.
All of my assumptions are based on facts...
None of those facts are anything like: "Google's last car was a sleeper hit. It took word of mouth to gain in popularity because nobody could spot the thing amongst a sea of Prius's and Civics!" It's like bragging about your snake oil being made from 'all natural ingredients'.
Really, I just don't see how a hybrid with covered tires translates into an unsafe auto-pilot car.
You were the one that went down the path that a highly recognizable self-driving car would mean an accident-prone one. I didn't really get it either, that's why I asked you to elaborate.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
The thing is, though, your rationale cancels itself out. They're not market testing, they're "Don't kill humans!" testing.
I might have slipped ahead in my target timeline... are we discussing the dangers inherent in Google's current line of testing in Nevada, or a potential future environment where anyone with enough cash can buy their own G'car. For the current testing, I expect them to keep following their previous testing models, i.e. the article I linked earlier where they put 150,000 miles on a car in complete secrecy. For future release to the public, well, one would HOPE that they stick with what works. If they follow my hunch and the test cars quietly navigate the Nevada roads in safety... then it would stand to reason that publicly marketed models would retain the same levels of anonymity.
I could see somebody standing up and making that argument, it's not a bad one, but I don't think it'd play out for two reasons: 1. In the US, we LOVE having people to blame . We're very lawsuit happy and Google has deep pockets. People will want to be able to blame Google if there's a crash. 2. People want to know to stay clear of these cars. I wouldn't be surprised AT ALL if these cars had to have a third different-colored tail light to indicate it's on auto-pilot.
Per my argument above, it should be easy enough to Google to release liability if a car manufacturer deviates from their testing methods. If forced to install an extra tail light or some other vestigial bit, Google would have their defense in the bag. "We didn't test it with that part... that part (and/or people's reaction to it) caused the accident. Blame Ford" (or whoever)
I think I'm misreading your post. You're supporting my point.
I think we have different opinions of gaudy or noticeable: Here's an example of the Japanese decals I mentioned for young and old drivers. I can't see the US requiring anything more than that, if anything at all. More on that later...
None of those facts are anything like: "Google's last car was a sleeper hit. It took word of mouth to gain in popularity because nobody could spot the thing amongst a sea of Prius's and Civics!" It's like bragging about your snake oil being made from 'all natural ingredients'.
The fact is: a google auto-pilot car cruised around a major metro area for several months without anyone the wiser. I live a few hours south of Google HQ, and I didn't hear a peep about this until Google came out with their article. The facts about it's market performance once delivered to the public will come in due time (which, considering the nature of this project, is probably a LONG time... but due time) And how dare you besmirch my snake oil.
You were the one that went down the path that a highly recognizable self-driving car would mean an accident-prone one. I didn't really get it either, that's why I asked you to elaborate.
I went down the path that being highly recognizable would be the ONLY way for such a car to be unsafe, per the lookie-loos comment, but that the car itself, and the auto-drive technology would be perfectly safe (hence "in due time" probably being a very long time). It'll certainly be a lot safer than most human drivers. However, per my comments above, I think the powers that be (Google, DoT, whatever manufacturer gets involved, etc.) will understand these potential issues, and act accordingly. I'd wager than any marking, aside from the obvious cameras and what-not, will amount to nothing more than a sticker and/or slightly altered license plate. Another thing to consider, if these things ever hit the mass-market, the first wave of Auto-Pilot cars will likely just be a retrofit of a current model.
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For future release to the public, well, one would HOPE that they stick with what works. If they follow my hunch and the test cars quietly navigate the Nevada roads in safety... then it would stand to reason that publicly marketed models would retain the same levels of anonymity.
Won't happen.
Per my argument above, it should be easy enough to Google to release liability if a car manufacturer deviates from their testing methods. If forced to install an extra tail light or some other vestigial bit, Google would have their defense in the bag. "We didn't test it with that part... that part (and/or people's reaction to it) caused the accident. Blame Ford" (or whoever)
Um... no. They'll be liable for the cause of the crash. Simple as that. If they're forced to add something per whatever regulations are in place at the time, they won't be able to release it until they've done so, and they're gonna test it with the new configuration.
I think we have different opinions of gaudy or noticeable: Here's an example of the Japanese decals I mentioned for young and old drivers. I can't see the US requiring anything more than that, if anything at all. More on that later...
There is no 'gaudy' in this conversation. It's all about whether or not the drivers around this car know it's on auto-pilot. Just your illustrations alone are more than enough to alert other drivers. (Not to mention R2D2 sticking out the top...)
The fact is: a google auto-pilot car cruised around a major metro area for several months without anyone the wiser.
The fact is that doesn't matter. Let's see if it can cruise around now without being noticed. Better yet, let's see what happens when (you may have heard this before...) there are a million of them on the road.
I went down the path that being highly recognizable would be the ONLY way for such a car to be unsafe, per the lookie-loos comment, but that the car itself, and the auto-drive technology would be perfectly safe (hence "in due time" probably being a very long time).
What you just said is that it's safe but it's not safe. And ya know what? That is *really* important. You fan filter out half the equation to try to make your logic work, but in real life it's still there. Your basis for this assumption is that it'll be some big secret. I won't happen for liability reasons, it won't happen for marketing reasons, it won't happen because everybody and their mother wants to see one of these cars, it won't happen unless Google somehow manages to actually conceal the devices on the roof of the car, and it won't happen due to possible regulations making it clear who's driving.
Once a.) People drive along-side them comfortably and b.) Google has done the inevitable revisions to their software to improve safety and performance, then yeah we're more than likely to see a drop in traffic accident statistics. That first year is going to be really rough. And now we're right back to where I said: Wait for version 3.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)