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Disentangling Facts From Fantasy In the World of Edison and Tesla

dsinc writes "Forbes' Alex Knapp writes about the Tesla idolatry and confusing his genius for godhood: 'Tesla wasn't an ignored god-hero. Thomas Edison wasn't the devil. They were both brilliant, strong-willed men who helped build our modern world. They both did great things and awful things. They were both brilliantly right about some things and just as brilliantly wrong about others. They had foibles, quirks, passions, misunderstandings and moments of wonder.'"

386 comments

  1. Irrefutable fact by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Tesla > Edison.

    1. Re:Irrefutable fact by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Dennis Ritchie > Steve Jobs too, but which one will be remembered?

    2. Re:Irrefutable fact by Dexter+Herbivore · · Score: 5, Funny

      I sense an argument along the lines of Kirk > Picard coming up.

    3. Re:Irrefutable fact by HyperQuantum · · Score: 1

      I guess that's why the GP was modded flamebait.

      --
      I am not really here right now.
    4. Re:Irrefutable fact by Squiddie · · Score: 1, Funny

      There is no argument. Kirk is obviously the superior one. All who claim otherwise are simply deluded.

    5. Re:Irrefutable fact by pla · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      There is no argument. Kirk is obviously the superior one. All who claim otherwise are simply deluded.

      But how do we feel about Archer vs. Janeway?

      And does "greater than" in this case mean better, or worse in the sense that both sucked so much as to wrap around to cult-good?

    6. Re:Irrefutable fact by StripedCow · · Score: 3, Funny

      Steve Jobs of course, for inventing alternating current (to be copied later by Tesla).

      --
      If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
    7. Re:Irrefutable fact by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Benjamin "Space-Jesus" Sisko actually was demigod-like. In this context, he is the only choice.

      Only in this context, though.

      --
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    8. Re:Irrefutable fact by ColdWetDog · · Score: 0

      Steve Jobs of course, for inventing alternating current (to be copied later by Tesla).

      And, apparently, Time Travel.

      That must be what Time Capsules are for.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    9. Re:Irrefutable fact by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tesla > Edison's Team

      FTFY

    10. Re:Irrefutable fact by Teancum · · Score: 1

      Presuming that technology in the future may figure out how to travel through time, the Time Capsules that preserve detailed drawing for alternating current devices created by Steve Jobs might have them preserved for 10k+ years with instructions to be sent back in time 20k years and buried in Serbia at a place Tesla could find them. Yeah, I could see that working out.

      Of course you knew that John Titor was a close personal friend of Steve Jobs as well.

    11. Re:Irrefutable fact by ixnaay · · Score: 0

      Archer > Janeway > Kirk > Picard. Somebody had to state the painful truth.

    12. Re:Irrefutable fact by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Chuck Norris > Chuck Norris

    13. Re:Irrefutable fact by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Bruce Lee > Chuck Norris

    14. Re:Irrefutable fact by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What unimaginable nonsense. Picard is superior to Kirk in every way.

    15. Re:Irrefutable fact by flyneye · · Score: 1

      Ok so it wasn't the telephone, nor was it the espresso I needed to make sense of it all this early.
      He wasn't a good man and I'd've prefered D.C. anyway.

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    16. Re:Irrefutable fact by AngryDeuce · · Score: 0

      Actually:

      Sisko > Picard > Archer > Kirk > Janeway

    17. Re:Irrefutable fact by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rory Williams > Chuck Norris.

    18. Re:Irrefutable fact by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess that's why the GP was modded flamebait.

      I see (Score:5, Informative) Guess most people with moderating rights agree with the GP. I know I do! Tesla was a brilliant man. Edison was a plagiarist.

    19. Re:Irrefutable fact by Linsaran · · Score: 5, Funny

      Gandalf the Grey + Gandalf the White + Monty Python and the Holy Grail's Black Knight + Benito Mussolini + The Blue Meanie + Cowboy Curtis + Jambi the Genie + Robocop + Terminator + Captain Kirk + Darth Vader + Lo Pan + Superman + Every Single Power Ranger + Bill S. Preston + Theodore Logan + Spock + The Rock + Doc Ock + Hulk Hogan > Chuck Norris

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    20. Re:Irrefutable fact by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Forgotten about Alexander Graham Bell, have we?

      Bell invented the telephone. Edison was the guy who discovered you could attach a needle to a telephone mouthpiece and record the sound waves onto a cylinder wrapped in tinfoil, to later be played back with another needle attached to a diaphragm.

    21. Re:Irrefutable fact by hackula · · Score: 0

      All hail the Emissary!

    22. Re:Irrefutable fact by elfprince13 · · Score: 1

      Thank you for posting that :D

    23. Re:Irrefutable fact by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Funny

      and don't forget the Volkswagon

      When I was 11 my dog was run over by a VW bug, and ever since I hate Hitler.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    24. Re:Irrefutable fact by Barsteward · · Score: 1

      are you sure? wasn't he accused of stealing a patent on it?

      --
      "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
    25. Re:Irrefutable fact by seandiggity · · Score: 1, Funny

      Gandalf the Grey + Gandalf the White + Monty Python and the Holy Grail's Black Knight + Benito Mussolini + The Blue Meanie + Cowboy Curtis + Jambi the Genie + Robocop + Terminator + Captain Kirk + Darth Vader + Lo Pan + Superman + Every Single Power Ranger + Bill S. Preston + Theodore Logan + Spock + The Rock + Doc Ock + Hulk Hogan < Chuck Norris

      TFTFY

      --
      Geeks like to think that they can ignore politics, you can leave politics alone, but politics won't leave you alone.-rms
    26. Re:Irrefutable fact by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2

      I sense an argument along the lines of Kirk > Picard coming up.

      If this is about hair count, then may I point out that Shatner's toupée makes an accurate verification of this claim very difficult?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    27. Re:Irrefutable fact by wzzzzrd · · Score: 1

      For that matter Hitler> Edison

      Now that's a nice godwin.

      --
      On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.
    28. Re:Irrefutable fact by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 0

      I'm pondering who the hell is Rory WIlliams, but to no avail, and I grow rather despondent of this ponderous puzzle.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    29. Re:Irrefutable fact by j00r0m4nc3r · · Score: 0

      Except in the making-it-with-hot-alien-babes category...

    30. Re:Irrefutable fact by mrblong · · Score: 1

      lee marvin > chuck norris

    31. Re:Irrefutable fact by crazyjj · · Score: 0

      Kirk is obviously the superior one.

      Only at getting his crewmembers killed.

      --
      What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
    32. Re:Irrefutable fact by ultranova · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I sense an argument along the lines of Kirk > Picard coming up.

      No, because Kirk and Picard are both military starship captains; they do the same job and their job performance can be compared. Comparing Ritchie and Tesla to Steven Jobs and Edison would be more like comparing Cochrane to Quark: one or both may or may not be brilliant, but one is a scientist and the other a businessman, so their abilities aren't really comparable.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    33. Re:Irrefutable fact by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Steve Jobs of course, for inventing alternating current (to be copied later by Tesla).

      Or it simply means that there were closed timelike curves in the vicinity of Steve Jobs. That would, of course, imply that Jobs was a naked singularity. Well, few would argue that he wasn't a singular individual, and the nakedness was easily hidden under the turtleneck. Ergo, the scenario proposed is possible.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    34. Re:Irrefutable fact by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, I quite like Janeway.

      Posting Anonymous for obvious reasons.

    35. Re:Irrefutable fact by paiute · · Score: 3, Informative

      Audie Murphy (5'5', 110 pounds)>>>>>infinity>>>>Chuck Norris

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      If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    36. Re:Irrefutable fact by mcneely.mike · · Score: 0

      Next you'll be asking WHO Amy Pond is... get this man a Doctor!

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    37. Re:Irrefutable fact by wikdwarlock · · Score: 1

      Now, why would you be so ignorant as to write it THAT way?

      Clearly it should be Picard > Kirk!

      --

      "I must not fear. Fear is the mind killer." -Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
    38. Re:Irrefutable fact by paiute · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      Archer>Barry

      --
      If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    39. Re:Irrefutable fact by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not here to discuss the legacy of Bell. He's the one credited with the invention. Whether you think he was the inventor or Gray was the inventor, either way, the point is that it wasn't Edison.

    40. Re:Irrefutable fact by paiute · · Score: 2

      Godwin>Poe>Moore

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      If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    41. Re:Irrefutable fact by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In actuality - both! By different sets of people.

    42. Re:Irrefutable fact by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrong Archer.

    43. Re:Irrefutable fact by Sique · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Bell invented the telephone.

      Bullshit. Philipp Reis also invented a telephone and gave the first public demonstraton in 1854 - more than two decades before Alexander Graham Bell. Maybe we all should read Mark Twain's words at the start of TFA again?

      It takes a thousand men to invent a telegraph, or a steam engine, or a phonograph, or a photograph, or a telephone or any other important thing—and the last man gets the credit and we forget the others. He added his little mite — that is all he did. These object lessons should teach us that ninety-nine parts of all things that proceed from the intellect are plagiarisms, pure and simple; and the lesson ought to make us modest. But nothing can do that.
      Mark Twain

      And whoever uses "X invented Y" again, shall be forever banned from ever partaking in a discussion about inventions again.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    44. Re:Irrefutable fact by bandy · · Score: 1

      Even though she passed on the seemingly bi-weekly opportunity to get her crew back home?

      --
      "You might as well get your son a ticket to hell as give him a five string banjo." -unknown minister
    45. Re:Irrefutable fact by tnk1 · · Score: 2

      Steve Jobs of course, for inventing alternating current (to be copied later by Tesla).

      And, apparently, Time Travel.

      That must be what Time Capsules are for.

      The iPad 4S will have time travel capabilities. Strangely, it will have this capability before it gets 4G.

    46. Re:Irrefutable fact by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Other Barry > Archer > Barry

    47. Re:Irrefutable fact by An+ominous+Cow+art · · Score: 4, Funny

      Archer >>------> Target

    48. Re:Irrefutable fact by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      In other words, you're a Tesla fanboy.

      Look, Edison was an impressive inventor. Tesla was great at electricity. There's a lot of Edison hate going around lately. But he was a very good inventor, things that are completely unrelated to Tesla or AC/DC.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    49. Re:Irrefutable fact by lister+king+of+smeg · · Score: 1

      thats what riker was there for

      --
      ---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
    50. Re:Irrefutable fact by lister+king+of+smeg · · Score: 1

      no only the expenable crueman died each week no one cares about them anyway. unlike picard under who the blob killed tasha yar a main caracter

      --
      ---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
    51. Re:Irrefutable fact by Kreigaffe · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You think Audie Murphy did some incredible shit, check out Leo Major ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Major )

      The level of unreality is outstanding. Pretty sure he's actually Wolverine.

      --
      ... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about. :|
    52. Re:Irrefutable fact by sjames · · Score: 1

      I really wish today's USPTO, Congressmen, and Judges would read more Twain.

    53. Re:Irrefutable fact by scharkalvin · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The phonograph was perhaps the most original of Edison's inventions. His inspiriation for this was his previous invention of a recording telegraph that used depresions in a rotating disk to record the dots and dashs of telegraph transmissions for later playback. The playback was electrical with the depressions in the disk causing a feeler riding on them to open and close an electrical circuit, but Edison (despite his deafness) was able to hear the crud sounds the feeler made while riding on the disk. Strangely enough, while he based the phonograph on this observation, the first phonograph used a cylinder instead of a disk to record sound.

      Many have commented on how Edison 'stole' the idea of the electric lamp from others. What Edison did was to take their primative ideas and make two simple but essencial changes to the design, which made the difference between success and failure. Until Edison all previous attempts at an electric lamp used a heavy low resistance element heated to incandecance by a low voltage electrical current. The element was operated in air either in the open, or protected by a glass cover. Sometimes a thermal regulator was used to allow the element to operate close to its melting point to produce as much light as possible. Edison's lamp used a thin high resistance element operating at high voltage. Since such a thin element would burn up quickly Edison sealed it inside a blown glass bulb in a high vacuum. Edison was lucky in that a brand new type of vacuum pump that used the flow of mecury to trap air had just been invented. He bought the first production model available for his experiments. He hired professional glass blowers to produce the sealed bulbs for his lamps. He experimented with various metals to find one that had the same rate of thermal expansion and contraction as glass for use as the lead in wires for the lamp (Edison used platinum). He spend years expermenting to perfect what seems today like such a simple idea. It wasn't so simple at the time. Any complaints about Edison stealing the idea of the electric lamp from someone else is simply sour grapes.

    54. Re:Irrefutable fact by Thud457 · · Score: 1

      Rory Williams > Chuck Norris.

      hmmm, interesting play, that. I can't immediately determine it one way or another.
      He may very well be a discordain saint, like Mr Magoo and inspector Clouseau.

      --

      the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

    55. Re:Irrefutable fact by scharkalvin · · Score: 1

      Bell invented the telephone. So did Gray. Bell simply got to the patent office a few hours ahead of Gray. Oh well.......
      The telephone transmitter (microphone element) that was in use for over 100 years WAS invented by Edison.

    56. Re:Irrefutable fact by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True. Tesla didn't have his own goons to do the mafia-style tricks that Edison had.

    57. Re:Irrefutable fact by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mr. Rodgers (in a blood stained sweater) > Gandalf the Grey + Gandalf the White + Monty Python and the Holy Grail's Black Knight + Benito Mussolini + The Blue Meanie + Cowboy Curtis + Jambi the Genie + Robocop + Terminator + Captain Kirk + Darth Vader + Lo Pan + Superman + Every Single Power Ranger + Bill S. Preston + Theodore Logan + Spock + The Rock + Doc Ock + Hulk Hogan Chuck Norris

    58. Re:Irrefutable fact by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny, given that Steve Jobs is a surprisingly accurate representation of Edison.

      Genius? Maybe, but mostly in the way he managed to capitalize on the work of others.

    59. Re:Irrefutable fact by dbitter1 · · Score: 1

      IIRC Mr Rogers > Chuck Norris ?

      --
      For us carnivores, "Sucking the marrow out of life" isn't a transcendentalist philosophy but a practical instruction.
    60. Re:Irrefutable fact by Bigby · · Score: 1

      Is Mark Twain saying that he plagiarized 99% of his books? I can see a lot of the book being from knowledge acquired during his life from other stories or the experiences of others. However, 99%? Really? I guess someone taught him the word "Finn" and therefore it is plagiarism to use it.

    61. Re:Irrefutable fact by PlastikMissle · · Score: 1

      No. It was Mr Rogers (in a blood stained sweater) > Everybody else.

    62. Re:Irrefutable fact by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But what if they came out of nowhere, lightning fast? Not much your Chuck Norris could do then, is there?

    63. Re:Irrefutable fact by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      Batman's head < Churk Norris' thighs

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    64. Re:Irrefutable fact by psydeshow · · Score: 1

      These object lessons should teach us that ninety-nine parts of all things that proceed from the intellect are plagiarisms, pure and simple; and the lesson ought to make us modest. But nothing can do that. --Mark Twain

      Man, I wish I could see Mark Twain in a street fight with Charles Dickens.

    65. Re:Irrefutable fact by AragornSonOfArathorn · · Score: 1

      Batman > Superman

      --
      sudo eat my shorts
    66. Re:Irrefutable fact by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Star Wars vs Star Trek? Vi Vs Emacs? Less filling vs tastes great?

      I kind of like Sisco, myself. Stupid router company spelled his name wrong! Ever see Spencer for Hire? Brooks is a damned good actor, Hawk was the complete opposite of Sisko (Hawk was a pimp/gangster).

      Sisko has Kirk's badassness, Picard's poise and unruffability, and he has the baddest star ship in the Star Trek universe. He could take Kirk and Picard at the same time in a fistfight OR a space battle!

      Janeaway? How the hell did she ever make Captain?

      Back down to Earth, Tesla was the 18th century Linus and Edison was the 18th century Jobs.

    67. Re:Irrefutable fact by samwichse · · Score: 1

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Philipp_Reis#Shortcomings

      "A century of Reis would never have produced a speaking telephone by mere improvement of construction. It was left for Bell to discover that the failure was due not to workmanship but to the principle which was adopted as the basis of what had to be done. Bell discovered a new art—that of transmitting speech by electricity, and his claim is not as broad as his invention. To follow Reis is to fail; but to follow Bell is to succeed."

    68. Re:Irrefutable fact by Lashat · · Score: 1

      You Chuck Norris

      --
      For every benefit you receive a tax is levied. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
    69. Re:Irrefutable fact by mcgrew · · Score: 2

      Are you kidding? How many times did Spock die? Hell, even McCoy died in one episode. Who loses more patients, McCoy or Crusher? McCoy probably lost more and NG was on the air more than twice as long as OS. Somebody (usually more than one somebody) died every damned week under Kirk.

      And hey, those red shirts' mothers probably disagree with you. A good captain keeps ALL of his crew alive, not just the senior officers.

    70. Re:Irrefutable fact by EdBear69 · · Score: 1

      Actually, only 99 parts. He doesn't specify how many parts in the whole, so you can't just assume that equals 99%.

      --
      I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV...
    71. Re:Irrefutable fact by Eponymous+Hero · · Score: 1

      Ghidorah > Godzilla > Mothra > Gamera > Rodan

      --
      insensitive clod overlords obligatory xkcd car analogy russian reversals whoosh pedant fanbois ftfy in 3...2...1..PROFIT
    72. Re:Irrefutable fact by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1

      But Uhuru is hotter

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    73. Re:Irrefutable fact by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except for the part where Edison hated jews. Oh no! Was that apt instead of Godwin?

      Yep.

      Fuck the anti-semite fuck.

    74. Re:Irrefutable fact by ExploHD · · Score: 1

      That's because she forgot that the week prior, her crew had a survival chance of 30% in whatever dangerous event that was happening.

    75. Re:Irrefutable fact by Metal_Militia · · Score: 1

      Hulk > The Thing

    76. Re:Irrefutable fact by flyneye · · Score: 1

      yeah, yeah, see addendum, bad form but I corrected myself.

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    77. Re:Irrefutable fact by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dennis Ritchie > Steve Jobs too, but which one will be remembered?

      Not hardly. If you're going to compare a man who gets credit for the early C standard as being greater than the man who brought the world the personal computer and thus showed people wanted to be using computers outside of corporations and schools then you truly don't grasp the impact of either man. How come Thompson never gets mentioned in this claim? They both received the same accolades and yet without the vision of their theoretical papers by tens of thousands of other individuals and more importantly the vision to see it all put together with the right talent their research would have remained in labs.

      From Ritchie's own wiki page quote by Kernighan:

      In an interview shortly after Ritchie's death long time colleague Brian Kernighan said Ritchie never expected C to be so significant.[20] Kernighan reminded readers of how important a role C and UNIX had played in the development of later high-profile projects, like the iPhone.[21][22]

      It never would have become significant without others who created BSD and it's many derivations down the line to NeXTStep and now OS X to make it possible. The resurgence of C and ObjC is solely due to the massive explosion of OS X and iOS. None of this happens without Steven P. Jobs, period. Java was owning the software consulting world and then came the resurgence, including a big resurgence of C++ and this comes with Apple taking over LLVM and bringing the world Clang and opening it up for everyone to join together and produce a better solution than GCC can ever produce. Java is left at home, thankfully.

      Even if C never came to life, other languages were around and evolving which would have taken its place. People spit on C for decades and now that its getting a resurgence most rightly justified we're to credit Ritchie will all of it's glory? Not a chance.

      Tesla was the embodiment of both a Steve Jobs and a Dennis Ritchie [though far greater scientifically] in one. Edison is the embodiment of Bill Gates who whored out his staff and more brilliant people while later making sure every patent had his name on it. He had no scruples. His ethics included torturing animals to death in a pursuit to prove DC is better than AC. What a sociopath.

    78. Re:Irrefutable fact by flyneye · · Score: 1

      Well what did Bell do besides make way for a world full of tracking devices strapped to mankind? Guess he exploited Tesla and doubless others. Setting the tone for the rest of the phone industry does to us all now. If you could go back in time, which one would you kill? Hitler, Bell or Edison? Each has their upsides and downsides and would affect modern life differently. Just one.( consolation prize for thinking of wiping out the lot.)

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    79. Re:Irrefutable fact by spazdor · · Score: 1

      Did You Know that Chuck Norris is kind of a regressive homophobic dick?

      It's a Fact®.

      --
      DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
    80. Re:Irrefutable fact by Goocifer · · Score: 0

      I sense an argument along the lines of Kirk > Picard coming up.

      Not even close. Tesla was a scientist, Edison was a businessman (and a pretty low-class one at that). While Tesla had a wide range of interdisciplinary inventions he created himself, Edison paid people to research and claimed their creations as his own - Edison was so corrupt he attempted to push DC over 2 and 3 phase AC in spite of overwhelming research showing AC carried better - he nearly had us all on DC through the exploitation of his monopoly, but ultimately he failed because you can't beat scientific fact with shady tactics - Science wins, always - in relation, Tesla wins vs Edison, Tesla was a scientist, Edison was a shame.

    81. Re:Irrefutable fact by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      It is pretty obvious as the history evolves and fact replaces PR=B$ Thomas Edison is being rewritten as a dick and Nikola Tesla as a true genius. The internet has the power to unravel the most powerful and enduring public relations lies and expose the truth. Thomas Edison is no inventor just a manipulative psychopath who claimed other peoples inventions as his own, the first true speculative investor, who was a real dick when it came to claiming inventions he 'paid' to develop as something he invented, an ego driven ass hat.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    82. Re:Irrefutable fact by Sique · · Score: 1

      From the same article:

      The discovery of the microphone by Professor Hughes has demonstrated the reason of this failure.

      So it was not Alexander Graham Bell, who overcame this problem, but Professor (David Edward) Hughes.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    83. Re:Irrefutable fact by Antony-Kyre · · Score: 1

      I'm going to disagree. Try Tesla âEdison. By the way, how do I type that? I had to find a site to copy â and supposedly the UTF-8 or whatever is 8811. I've tried alt+8811; no luck.

      And previewing my post makes it look like a-hat. Oh well, I'm still going to post. I'm not going to potentially spend hours trying to get it to post correctly. Maybe someone can get it to work for me.

    84. Re:Irrefutable fact by Whomp-Ass · · Score: 1

      To toss in my favorite: Simo Hayha

      In temperatures between 40 and 20 degrees Celsius, dressed completely in white camouflage, Häyhä was credited with 505 confirmed kills of Soviet soldiers... Remarkably, all of Häyhä's kills were accomplished in fewer than 100 days–an average of 5 kills per day–at a time of year with very short hours of daylight. The Soviets tried several ploys to get rid of him, including counter-snipers and artillery strikes. On March 6, 1940, Häyhä was shot in the lower left jaw by a Russian soldier during combat. The bullet tumbled upon impact and exited his head. He was picked up by fellow soldiers who said "half his head was missing", but he was not dead: he regained consciousness on March 13, the day peace was declared.

      This guy survived a soviet artillery campaign directed solely at him then had his head shot off: He got better. Pretty sure this guy is Deadpool.

    85. Re:Irrefutable fact by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      Are you kidding? How many times did Spock die? Hell, even McCoy died in one episode. Who loses more patients, McCoy or Crusher? McCoy probably lost more and NG was on the air more than twice as long as OS. Somebody (usually more than one somebody) died every damned week under Kirk.

      And hey, those red shirts' mothers probably disagree with you. A good captain keeps ALL of his crew alive, not just the senior officers.

      But these were much different times. Kirk was exploring new and dangerous territories. Picard's mission was more of patrolling surveyed territories. IIRC, Kirk was the only one to bring one of the original twelves starships of that class on the same mission home at all. The other eleven of Starfleet's pride and joy, captained by the best they could muster, all met obstacles they couldn't handle and failed to return. Space was much more dangerous then especially when exploring with lower tech.

    86. Re:Irrefutable fact by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      IIRC, Kirk was the only one to bring one of the original twelves starships of that class on the same mission home at all.

      Picard was the only one to bring any starship of any class home at all. Dangerous? Kirk wouldn't have been able to handle the Borg! Every other ship but the Enterprise was completely destroyed.

      Both Kirk and Picard lost the enterprise, though (in the subsequent movies).

    87. Re:Irrefutable fact by vlm · · Score: 1

      Picard was the only one to bring any starship of any class home at all.

      Janeway, last 3 minutes of the last episode.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    88. Re:Irrefutable fact by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Alas, I missed the last season of Voyager. The station that carried it changed networks, and it didn't air here. I've never seen the last season for sale, although I've seen the first couple on shelves. I guess I'l pirate it tonight. Hmm, McDonalds, Felbers, or the laundromat? All have free wifi.

      But at any rate, the only reason Janeaway got out of the Borg battle was she was in the delta quadrant when teh Borg attacked Earth. She only (barely) got away from the Borg by capturing one (through a great stroke of luck).

    89. Re:Irrefutable fact by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because if Mark Twain said it, it is an irrefutable fact!!! Person A could invent thing B alone. Ever heard the term 'Reinventing the wheel'. Some people do end up coming to a great invention and along the way 'rediscover' things that had already been invented, so it doesn't nec. mean that because Person A invented Thing B that when Person C invents Thing D which is derivative of Thing B that they nec. had any idea that Thing B actually existed. This is probably more relevant to the ancient world, where we see similar inventions appearing in the West and the East independant of each other.

      If you beleive Twain, then when John Watts was looking at a boiling pot that was lifting the lid off due to steam power, then the person/s who originally invented the pot, the person/s who discovered fire and the persons who invented mining/casting/sheet metal working/smelting/the shovel/etc are co-inventors of the steam engine. This is not true as they were not attempting to invent the steam engine. They were doing other things. It was John Watt's brain that put these things together to come up with the steam engine. He used these other peoples contributions to society to further society by building upon them, but the reason we don't remember them as co-inventors of the steam engine is because they were not. They were the inventors/discoverers of the pot/fire/mining/casting/sheet metal/smelting/the shovel/etc, and where the inventors names have not been forgotten, they are remembered for the things they actually contributed.

    90. Re:Irrefutable fact by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ?? >>-----> Knee

    91. Re:Irrefutable fact by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hell, Donald 'Duck' Dunn > Steve Jobs, and I didn't even know that Dunn had died.

  2. Irrelevant. by Mannfred · · Score: 2, Insightful

    All that's left of them now is what mattered the most to the rest of the world.

  3. The truth is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    This is all lies and propaganda brought to you by those crazy Edison supporters. DC current. As if.

  4. Someone's just trolling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's like asking about vi/emacs, macs/PC, etc.

    Also, does anyone else notice the sudden flurry of Forbes articles?

    1. Re:Someone's just trolling by burne · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I have to say: it was a good article, a good argument, relevant to my geek interests and a worthwhile way to spend some time on the daily commute. Compliments to the submitter.

  5. Re:Go have a look at the Oatmeal's latest by zmughal · · Score: 5, Informative

    Which is precisely what TFA is addressing.

  6. false equivalency by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's the same kind of media attempt to put forth a "balanced" view, even when there's a clear bias in reality. It happens all the time in politics. Just because they want to claim that Tesla not marrying is the same as Edison strangling puppies for sexual pleasure, doesn't mean those two options are the same. Some times, there isn't any reason to search for a middle ground, if one side is simply wrong.

    1. Re:false equivalency by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      To be fair....

      * Tesla never married
      * Edison did kill puppies by electrocution

    2. Re:false equivalency by Sique · · Score: 2

      Yes, and Nikola Tesla was simply wrong in promoting alternating current for about any use. If you look at modern electrical or electronic gear, they all have circuitry to convert alternating current to direct current before powering anything. Thomas Alva Edison was right.
      But where Nikola Tesla was right was that for transmitting current, alternating current beats direct current downhand. And that's why about any electrical system in the world transmits alternating current.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    3. Re:false equivalency by TummyX · · Score: 5, Informative

      AC was much better for transmitting back then because transmitting high voltage is more efficient (less current means less copper and less resistive waste) and they had an efficient way of converting high voltage AC to low voltage AC (transformers). Efficient high voltage DC-DC voltage conversion was not something that was possible back in the day.

      DC is actually more efficient for long distance high voltage transmission -- they just didn't have the technology to convert DC voltage. Now days HVDC transmission for new long distance lines is much more viable.

    4. Re:false equivalency by tibit · · Score: 5, Informative

      For modern high-voltage transmission, capacitive losses matter even at 50/60Hz. HV transmission is best done as DC. The thing Tesla was right about was that with technology available back then, AC distribution was the only feasible one. It has only been in the last few decades that we have the semiconductor technology that would allow completely solid state, DC-to-DC power conversion all the way to the consumer. That would be, ultimately, the way to go. DC-to-DC converters can be quite compact compared to 50/60Hz transformers, especially when running at high frequencies. I've seen resonant converters taking in 10kV 3 phase and outputting 1.5kV DC at about 50kVA. It had PFC as well. Two people could very easily lift one up, it was probably less than 200lbs, just bulky, and the magnetics (cores) could fit in a breadbox. Try lifting up a 50kVA oil immersed transformer with same ratings -- it's half a ton, give or take.

      Alas, circuit breakers for DC are significantly more complex and expensive than ones for AC, since you have an arc that needs to be quenched. They need to have a chamber that utilizes spatial gradients in pressure or temperature (due to asymmetry of the plasma chamber) to move some air around to blow the arc out. AC arcs are usually self-extinguishing, except at extreme short-circuit currents and voltages (high voltage substations and the like).

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    5. Re:false equivalency by randalny · · Score: 5, Informative

      Yes, and Nikola Tesla was simply wrong in promoting alternating current for about any use. If you look at modern electrical or electronic gear, they all have circuitry to convert alternating current to direct current before powering anything.

      EXCEPT for the AC electric motor and the florescent light bulb -- two of the most common uses of power even today (and certainly before about 1960). In 1960 the refrigerator, the record player, the kitchen mixer and also various household pumps were powered by what was essentially a slightly improved version of Tesla's motor. The incandescent lights were also being run off his power too. Only really the radio needed a coil to convert to DC.

    6. Re:false equivalency by randalny · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, and Nikola Tesla was simply wrong in promoting alternating current for about any use. If you look at modern electrical or electronic gear, they all have circuitry to convert alternating current to direct current before powering anything.

      Except for just about all uses of power till home electronic equipment was invented in the 80's. In 1960 just about everything in the home was powered directly by AC (as in incandescent and florescent lights) or by an AC motor very similar to the one invented by Tesla. Only the radio needed a transformer to use AC power. Even today probably 90% of your actual power usage is of direct AC power (air conditioning and lights). So I would say that it is wrong to say Tesla was wrong.

    7. Re:false equivalency by digitig · · Score: 1

      AC is a lot safer around the home, at least at mains voltages (DC is ok once you get below about 40V). If you touch anything with live mains on it then it will tend to throw you off. If it were DC it could lock your muscles and you'd fry.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    8. Re:false equivalency by Corbets · · Score: 2

      AC was much better for transmitting back then because transmitting high voltage is more efficient (less current means less copper and less resistive waste) and they had an efficient way of converting high voltage AC to low voltage AC (transformers). Efficient high voltage DC-DC voltage conversion was not something that was possible back in the day.

      DC is actually more efficient for long distance high voltage transmission -- they just didn't have the technology to convert DC voltage. Now days HVDC transmission for new long distance lines is much more viable.

      I've seen a few ACs on this site that I would suggest converting to high voltage...!

    9. Re:false equivalency by niteshifter · · Score: 5, Informative

      For modern high-voltage transmission, capacitive losses matter even at 50/60Hz. ....

      That's an overly broad statement. Capacitive reactive losses really matter a lot on submarine or buried cable. Not much of a factor in overhead HV transmission. Think of it like the classic parallel plate capacitor - since that's what we have, just our "plates" are curved away from each other (which reduces capacitance, but let us consider them as flat here). The area (over the length of the lines) is large, yes. But what kills that off so to speak, is a product of two things: a poor dielectric medium (air) and a large distance (many meters) between the "plates".

      For "plates" 3cm wide with a length of 1km and a separation of 10m: about 27pF. In other words: 27pf/km.

      Formula: (where's my dang MathML slashdot?) C = k * E * A / S where:
      C is capacitance in Farads
      k is relative permittivity of the dielectric. Equals 1 (for air)
      E is permittivity of space, a constant 8.85E-12 F/m
      A is area in meters squared
      S is separation distance in meters

      For that 1km model above the impedance at 60 Hz is 100Mohm. For a 220KV line that is a loss of about 480W/km. Such a line would be conveying power in the few hundreds megawatt range. Not much of a reactive loss there. Different on sub/buried: k is much larger, and S is much smaller (mm - cm distances).

    10. Re:false equivalency by LordVader717 · · Score: 1

      Modern electronics require a range of low-voltage DC to power the solid state components. High-voltage mains electricity still needs to be converted to the voltages required by the individual components, and this is hardly any easier than with AC.

    11. Re:false equivalency by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope. They lock muscles just the same. That's why the military and fire brigade teach you to feel walls with the back of your hand. Grip and biceps are stronger than extensors and triceps so it pulls your hand away.

    12. Re:false equivalency by digitig · · Score: 1

      I said "touch", not "grip". I agree that if you grip AC you're still in trouble.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    13. Re:false equivalency by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Even today probably 90% of your actual power usage is of direct AC power (air conditioning and lights). So I would say that it is wrong to say Tesla was wrong.

      Most of the lighting in my house is DC. 12V halogen MR16 bulbs.

    14. Re:false equivalency by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Edison's position is generally mis-characterized. For long distance transmission, Edison said of course AC power at high voltage would be best. He argued that DC was best for distribution (i.e. supplying several city blocks)

      Edison was basically correct except that expensive motor-generator sets would have been needed to convert AC to DC.

      Also, to put it in context, Edison's vision of a central generating station was one that supplied a dozen city blocks. His vision never extended to huge remote power plants except in special cases like Niagara Falls. Edison was not interested in individual inventions, but rather the entire end-to-end industry of producing and delivering electric power to light bulbs, i.e. the electric light utility. Non-light uses of electricity such as motors were secondary. He originally charged per lamp, not per kwh. Therefore, inter city scale power transmission was not main stream according to Edison's view. Within those confines, Edison's arguments in favor of DC were essentially correct. Ultimately though his visions were not sufficiently scalable as the "electric light utility" grew into the "electric utility."

    15. Re:false equivalency by msauve · · Score: 1

      If you look at modern electrical or electronic gear, they all have circuitry to convert alternating current to direct current before powering anything.

      ...and they all have circuitry to convert DC to AC.

      It's not like there's only one conversion, and it's all DC after that. The external power supply on a laptop takes wall AC, changes it to DC, changes it to high frequency AC, then back to DC. That DC goes into your laptop. 19V is typical. But, the chips don't run on 19V. It used to be that a linear voltage regulator would be used to bring the voltage down to what was needed for a particular function. But, they're inefficient, they give off lots of heat. So, efficient switching regulators are used. They're based on AC, they convert DC to AC, then back to DC at a different voltage.

      Finally, power your CPU with DC. What's required before it can do a thing? Fire up some clock generators and get a good AC signal going.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    16. Re:false equivalency by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

      That's what he was saying. By using the back of your hand, when the muscles contract you pull away. If you touch with your fingertips or palm, when the muscles contract they'll grip. Same movement, different direction.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    17. Re:false equivalency by sudonymous · · Score: 1

      EXCEPT for the AC electric motor and the florescent light bulb -- two of the most common uses of power even today

      AC motor? Ick, moving parts. My cell phone charger doesn't have any moving parts. For those few appliance where moving parts are unavoidable, yeah, wire for AC.

      Fluorescent light bulbs (good ones) convert your 60 Hz AC to a few k Hz, anyway, so it's not like it makes a difference whether they're using AC or DC. (And we might be headed toward LED lighting anyway.)

      If I had it to do over today, houses would be wired with AC for appliances and have a single, high-efficiency, AC-to-DC converter which produces a variety of different voltages in a standard (invertible!) plug configuration which all devices would be standardized toward. It would be slightly more expensive because you'd need more than 3 conductors in the cable, but you could probably get away with using smaller gauge wire since many devices don't draw as much power as their ancestors did. Fuse each outlet box, naturally. And come up with a sane outlet that doesn't spark when you insert the plug. (I.e. outlet goes "hot" after all pins have made contact.) Europeans have them; the only reason we don't is because the cost to retro-fit would be too high.

      Speaking of do-overs, I'd make the USB plug invertible too. I'm not sure how a simple up-or-down plug can take 3 tries at minimum to find the correct orientation, but for some reason it does...

    18. Re:false equivalency by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      If I had it to do over today

      That's the point, you never would have. It essentially could not have worked out any other way. Because of which technologies follow which other technologies, HVDC simply was not practical until now. And we wouldn't be here with all these DC devices if we hadn't been through the stage of using AC.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    19. Re:false equivalency by sudonymous · · Score: 1

      I'm aware. I'm just saying that hindsight being 20/20, I can see both why we ended up where we are, and where I'd like to have been instead. And I fully realize it would be prohibitively expensive to try to change things now.

    20. Re:false equivalency by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      And I fully realize it would be prohibitively expensive to try to change things now.

      Well, it doesn't actually matter because every HVDC link needs fancy equipment at each end, no matter what is there — so you can upgrade piecemeal, one link at a time. We ARE changing things now, but only as it makes economic sense.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    21. Re:false equivalency by digitig · · Score: 1

      That's the danger of DC: when the muscles grip they stay gripped. With AC they grip and release 50/60 times a second, which gives you a chance to get free.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    22. Re:false equivalency by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "(where's my dang MathML slashdot?"

      On 4chan's /sci/. This ain't 4chan. MathML isn't being implemented anytime soon.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    23. Re:false equivalency by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "Europeans have them; the only reason we don't is because the cost to retro-fit would be too high."

      The retro-fit cost is embarassingly low. What we don't like is the largish boxes sticking out of the wall, even at baseboard height.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    24. Re:false equivalency by Khyber · · Score: 1

      Umm, my fluorescent lamps run DC. Of course, the ballast eats up about as much power as the lamps it drives, but oh well, what can you expect from an old house using old fixtures?

      Can't wait for my landlord to allow me to replace these old fixtures with LED ones.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    25. Re:false equivalency by Khyber · · Score: 1

      Human reaction time tends to make that frequency variation null. Just speaking from personal experience working with AC and DC devices all day long.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    26. Re:false equivalency by grep_rocks · · Score: 1

      Look at the source of this article - Forbes? Gee, what opinion would they have about Edison? Corporate America loves Edison - About all you really need to know about Edison is that he invented the electric chair to discredit Tesla - however if you want to be more scholarly you can read "The Physicists: a history of a scientific community in America" there is a chapter about Edison during world war I - he thought tinkerers and garage inventors could just submit ideas to him to win the war, sidelining the professional physics and chemistry communities - it was a compete flop the ideas submitted were idiotic, finally the government put together a real wartime R&D program - it is clear from that episode Edison had no clue how real R&D was conducted, he just hired a bunch of guys who knew what they were doing and took credit for everything - just like today.

    27. Re:false equivalency by crakbone · · Score: 1

      I don't think your house is average. Majority of houses I've seen use normal incandescent or CF lamps. My office uses fluorescent and the majority of my clients use fluorescent only one client uses halogens and then only in 5% percent of the office space.

    28. Re:false equivalency by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      How could you NOT do this as
      C = a * k * E / S
      ?

    29. Re:false equivalency by sudonymous · · Score: 1

      The cost of installing new outlets is not all that's involved. All of your household appliances have regular 2 or 3-prong plugs and you'd need to change them or get adapters. Then you'd need to start universally shifting to the new style so that anything you buy will come with the correct plug already.

      Anyway, what "largish boxes"? Outlet boxes are always largish. They're recessed. Do they not have hollow walls? Or are these things just so large that they won't fit?

    30. Re:false equivalency by JWSmythe · · Score: 2

          After having the pleasure of exploring the wonders of 90VAC 20Hz (POTS line ringing), 120VAC 60Hz (residential), 240VAC 60Hz (miswired residential appliance), to about 30,000VDC 600Hz (faulty automotive sparkplug wire). I will say I agree with you.

          I learned from those mistakes, and am now very very careful. Knowing the feeling is enough to never want to feel it again.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    31. Re:false equivalency by Khyber · · Score: 1

      The boxes themselves wouldn't fit in US houses, they're more than 4 inches deep. Approximate size is 8"w x 4"h x 5+"d.

      Considering your average wall 2x4 is actually less than 4 inches wide, you see the issue?

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    32. Re:false equivalency by sudonymous · · Score: 1

      Is there any physical reason why they need to be so big? It sounds like they're over-engineered without much thought to ever actually fitting them into a wall. Some engineer sent the plan off to an architect and said "here, make this work".

    33. Re:false equivalency by Khyber · · Score: 1

      Emergency Ground Fault protection. If you so much as come CLOSE to accidentally bridging the contacts, the entire box trips itself and cuts power.

      Imagine a larger and more reliable GFCI outlet - that's basically what these are. Required in UK and AUS.

      Even the 300+ year old bed/breakfast I was staying in had them installed.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    34. Re:false equivalency by sudonymous · · Score: 1

      More reliable, how? Why does that mean the outlet has to be larger? As far as I know, the GFCI outlets used here are able to perform their intended function acceptably.

  7. Douche bag by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Actually, anyone who electrocutes animals *is* a douchebag.

    1. Re:Douche bag by Chrisq · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      Actually, anyone who electrocutes animals *is* a douchebag.

      And anyone who slits their throats without stunning them is a double douchebag.

  8. Depends on how you measure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Certainly not by the measure of business acumen, and, therefore, things he personally achieved. Tesla was undeniably greater in terms of "things he was wrong about", and "general insanity".

    1. Re:Depends on how you measure by randalny · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What the article does not note is that Tesla didn't really claim to have invented alternating current, but he did claim (probably validly) to having invented the a working, practical AC induction motor (while a student in Europe), which made AC practical for industry. He also claimed to have invented a practical AC generator (at least he had a patent on it that he sold to Westinghouse). Additionally he did invent and patent a working system for radio and wireless signal transmission that was essentially copied by Marconi later. Add to that the Tesla coil and the working florescent light bulb, and you have a pretty impressive set of inventions. Compared to Edison (who I admire very much also) Tesla with just a couple of assistants revolutionized a great deal of the world. Edison's real claim to fame, on the other hand, was in inventing the modern invention research team system. His actual inventions were relatively few, but with teams of some dozens of inventors he spewed out patents that made him much richer and successful than Tesla (though not as rich as he wanted - he was essentially defeated in business by J.P. Morgan). Tesla unfortunately subsided into partial insanity after his attempt at power transmission in the teens, and almost every invention after that was essentially in his head.

    2. Re:Depends on how you measure by gl4ss · · Score: 2

      I think the point there isn't business acumen or personal built empire.

      but that what edison did .. most of the things edison did someone else would have done anyways relatively close to the time edison did it, while teslas achievements might have taken considerably more time to come up for someone else.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    3. Re:Depends on how you measure by SuricouRaven · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Edison himself wasn't a great inventor. He was a great businessman and head-of-R&D. Pioneer of inventing as a business - not as just a couple of lone experts, but a whole department of underlings systematically tackling potentially profitable issues with pooled resources. He dabbled, yes, but most of the actual inventing was done by his employees.

    4. Re:Depends on how you measure by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1, Informative

      Edison was a patent troll that prevented a movie industry to appear on the east coast. Favoring this kind of profiles is a way to prevent innovations from happening.

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    5. Re:Depends on how you measure by eshefer · · Score: 5, Informative

      he was NOT a patent troll, since he BUILT the stuff he patented.

      I'd would agree that he was a patent asshole, though.

    6. Re:Depends on how you measure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yes, I came here to say this.

      Edison had more in common with Henry Ford and Bill Gates. They were obsessed with mass production, public recognition and wealth. They all grew fat on government contracts. They were all shown to have taken credit for other people's work and they all used underhanded methods to exploit their workers and sabotage their competition.

      Tesla had more in common with Faraday and Heaviside who all turned their noses up at public recognition and wealth. Tesla and Faraday both refused government war contracts. The list goes on.

    7. Re:Depends on how you measure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      He was both. Edison was ruthless about using his patents to keep superior products from competitors off the market. Stock tickers were a particularly notorious example. He was loathed by Wall Street traders who nevertheless depended upon his company's stock tickers, because they were well aware that others had invented superior ones with more functionality that Edison went to court to keep off the market.

      The main difference was that 140 years ago, you couldn't root and reflash your Edison stock ticker to Cyanogen to give it those capabilities anyway. If Edison kept competing products off the market, they were unavailable. Period. As long as Motorola doesn't start designing phones for Apple (with hardware-locked bootloaders, encrypted JTAG ports, and flash with mandatory encryption so it can't be unsoldered, reflashed, and soldered back in) before Google's purchase is finalized and Moto becomes non-evil, we can hold our noses, grudgingly buy iPhones, jailbreak them, and reflash them to Android to give Steve a big posthumous finger.

    8. Re:Depends on how you measure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Edison had more in common with Henry Ford and Bill Gates. They were obsessed with mass production, public recognition and wealth. They all grew fat on government contracts. They were all shown to have taken credit for other people's work and they all used underhanded methods to exploit their workers and sabotage their competition.

      Or, y'know, like Steve Jobs (maybe with the exception of the government contract part).

      In fact, that's sounding somewhat more apt a comparison, really...

    9. Re:Depends on how you measure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, by all counts, Tesla would have been far wealthier than Edison had he simply not given the money away. Tesla more or less owned GE for a short duration.

      By juts about any measure, Tesla was Edison's superior. And that really chapped Edison's ass.

    10. Re:Depends on how you measure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...but that what edison did .. most of the things edison did someone else would have done anyways relatively close to the time edison did it...

      The phonograph was possible with Roman technology, but somehow nobody came up with one until 1877. Something isn't invented until someone invents it, and back when patents really meant something, Edison and his team assembled well over a thousand.

    11. Re:Depends on how you measure by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      What the article does not note is that Tesla didn't really claim to have invented alternating current

      Which should neither come as a surprise, nor be the subject of criticism. The article wasn't about Tesla's claims, but rather it was about the mistaken beliefs widely held *about* Tesla's claims. Yes, Tesla accomplished much, but not nearly so much as his legions of fan(atic)s and acolytes would have you believe.

    12. Re:Depends on how you measure by cthulhu11 · · Score: 1

      Plus, vampires are teh_shizzle these days.

  9. Re:M=T(S^2-A) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Cats = chosen creatures of God.
    "In the beginning, God created man, but seeing him so feeble, He gave him the cat." - Warren Eckstein

    Dogs are the opposite of cats, and "dog" backwards = "god", thus cats are as gods.
    "No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong." - Albert Einstein

    Can anyone prove this wrong? This also backs up perhaps how cats will always get what they want, even from 4chan.

  10. Edison 'sold' lightbulbs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Good job our current patent system wasn't around then or we would be living in the dark (ages).

    1. Re:Edison 'sold' lightbulbs by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      Our current patent system was around then, doofus, and the lightbulb was patents. Patents != Copyright.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    2. Re:Edison 'sold' lightbulbs by NormalVisual · · Score: 4, Informative

      Oh, but it was. The U.S. film industry being based in Southern California is due in large part to that fact.

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    3. Re:Edison 'sold' lightbulbs by Khyber · · Score: 1

      So glad someone remembers this.

      So when do we get to put the RIAA/MPAA to task for decades of patent violations, with plenty of documented history behind it?

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    4. Re:Edison 'sold' lightbulbs by Dusty101 · · Score: 1

      Indeed. Edison's business practices are one of the big reasons the MPAA exists: to attempt to stop someone else doing to Hollywood what Edison/proto-Hollywood did to Méliès:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Trip_to_the_Moon#Distribution

  11. Read post... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Steve an Bill.

  12. Tesla is revered as god here... by dejanc · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I live in Belgrade, Serbia, and Tesla is revered as god here. For a person who only spent a night in Belgrade (he was born in what is now Croatia but was of Serbian ethnicity), it's a bit strange he got major boulevard and airport named after him. He is also on our money and has a number of monuments.

    We also have a Nikola Tesla Museum in Belgrade, which I recommend everybody visit. It has working examples of some of his inventions, so you can see what the first radio controlled device looked like.

    I don't mind it though, he was a brilliant mind. Of course, sometimes he was out of touch with reality and had no sense of business, but geniuses often are like that...

    If you can find this series subtitled and want to learn more about the life of Tesla, I strongly recommend watching this.

    1. Re:Tesla is revered as god here... by LordLucless · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Of course, sometimes he was out of touch with reality and had no sense of business

      If we had more of that sort, instead of the people who are firmly grounded and really good at business, the world would be a better place.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    2. Re:Tesla is revered as god here... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I do wonder sometimes how history would have played out had he stayed in Europe or gravitated towards Russia. Imagine a Soviet Union with Tesla on its side.

    3. Re:Tesla is revered as god here... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_%26_Conquer:_Red_Alert No need to imagine it, go play it (it's been released for free).

    4. Re:Tesla is revered as god here... by blind+biker · · Score: 1

      If we had more of that sort, instead of the people who are firmly grounded and really good at business, the world would be a better place.

      Quoted for truth!

      --
      "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
    5. Re:Tesla is revered as god here... by Supercooldude · · Score: 1

      That's due to the fact that Tesla is much more significant to the Serbs than for example Edison to the Americans or Hertz to the Germans, because he's the only Serb who is known globally for his inventions. Compare this to the US or Germany or Russia or France which can claim dozens or even hundreds of world-famous inventors. And actually I believe the US can claim Tesla as American since most of his inventions were produced while he was working in the US.

    6. Re:Tesla is revered as god here... by hedleyroos · · Score: 3, Funny

      I'm sure Tesla was very well grounded. Safety first!

    7. Re:Tesla is revered as god here... by virgnarus · · Score: 1

      We need a balanced supply of each. What good does it profit man if you have nothing but a bunch of inventors but no manufacturers or marketers of which to inform the public of its existence and its subsequent production for the masses? Rather, it is necessary to have the inventor who revels in study and those assisting the inventor by creating a product out of it. Businesses currently run on that (businesses running with R&D departments), but often the inventor or the producer (typically the inventor) fails to garner the attention and gratification they deserve for their work and achievements. Of course, given that we're dealing with man here, that predicament will never come to an end. There will always be misinformation or lack of information about who accomplished what, formulated from either error or vanity, and embraced by the fallible and limited minds of the public.

    8. Re:Tesla is revered as god here... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure Tesla was very well grounded. Safety first!

      As seen yesterday, here are some well-grounded folks saying Thank you, Nikola Tesla.

    9. Re:Tesla is revered as god here... by sjames · · Score: 2

      Actually there are plenty of cases where you're better off un-grounded.

    10. Re:Tesla is revered as god here... by phorm · · Score: 1

      sometimes he was out of touch with reality and had no sense of business, but geniuses often are like that...

      Doing what they do for the love of science and the benefit of humanity? We need more such geniuses.
      Unfortunately in the days of patent hoarding/trolling, IP-ownership clauses, and other such things, the "basement genius" has less chance of making such contributions without running afoul of an IP/patent based lawsuit.

  13. AC/DC by Cat_Herder_GoatRoper · · Score: 5, Funny

    "Highway to Hell" may have not been possible without Telsa/Edison so they are both equally important.

    1. Re:AC/DC by game+kid · · Score: 2

      Thanks to their work, we've been...thunderstruck.

      --
      You can hold down the "B" button for continuous firing.
    2. Re:AC/DC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Highway to Hell" may have not been possible without Telsa/Edison so they are both equally important.

      Adam Savage would recommend Back in Black.

    3. Re:AC/DC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately for Tesla, it's been a long way to the top.

  14. Edison stank literally (did not wash). by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Edison stank literally (did not wash).

    1. Re: Edison stank literally (did not wash). by randalny · · Score: 2

      Because he used to work 70 hours at a stretch -- like many computer programmers I know.

    2. Re: Edison stank literally (did not wash). by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Edison stank literally (did not wash).

      So all he'd need to do is move into his mother's basement and the /sheep will embrace him as a god, too?

    3. Re: Edison stank literally (did not wash). by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      reminds anyone of another great American "inventor" that did not wash often?

  15. It's not all true by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The wireless energy one would be a good example. Tesla was really big on the idea and did a lot of work on it but the reason it never happened wasn't because of some mean conspiracy against him, unless you count the laws of physics. It is because of the inverse-square law. Electromagnetic waves drop in power with the square of distance from the transmitter. Net effect is that to cover any distance you need a bigass transmitter and when you are talking powering something, it is just not feasible.

    Tesla tried to solve the problem but couldn't, because it is just how EM propagation works. It would take some other method for wirelessly transmitting power to make it feasible, which nobody, including Tesla, has come up with.

    The guy was an unmitigated genius, and also a complete nut, but he wasn't some god of all invention who created everything good.

    Also there's a difference between contributing to things, and inventing them. Tesla contributed to the theories behind radar, but he didn't make it happen. If you want to go on the "who started it" thing you'd probably end up back with James Clerk Maxwell, given that it was his equations that formed the foundation for classical electrodynamics and thus the most basic theoretical foundation. Of course, there was a hell of a lot from that to functioning radar.

    My bet is that comic spurred this article. The writer was annoyed by this deification of Tesla.

    1. Re:It's not all true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My bet is that comic spurred this article. The writer was annoyed by this deification of Tesla.

      No shit. Was your first clue the numerous times that the author specifically mentioned that he was responding to the comic, and quote much of it verbatim? Any other "insightful" bets you want to share with us?

    2. Re:It's not all true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but there are ways around the inverse square law problem. Things that make full use of the way EM waves propagate, things like directional antenna.

      Powering things wirelessly by transmitting in an onmidirectional manner quickly becomes impractical, but concentrate that into a beam.....

    3. Re:It's not all true by digitig · · Score: 3, Informative

      The inverse square law still applies with a directional antenna. You start out with more in the direction you want, but it still falls off according to an inverse square law.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    4. Re:It's not all true by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Informative

      While true, it's also misleading. The inverse square law isn't magic, it's follows naturally on from basic geometry. If you take a 2D beam with any angle of spread, then at distance 2n from the source, it will be twice as wide as at distance n. If the beam is in three dimensions, then the spread will be twice as wide in each dimension, so it will be covering four times the area. This applies just as much to flashlights as to lasers, but it's not nearly as important in the latter case as the former because going from a radius of, say, 1mm at one km to 2mm at 2km doesn't really make much difference to the brightness, while going from 10cm at 1m to 20cm at 2m does.

      With things like phased array antenna, it's possible to get the beam spread quite low, with lasers you can get it very low. The problem is not the inverse square law, it's that at the kind of power and directionality you want for this kind of thing you end up with something that has no problem propagating the power efficiently to the destination and will happily burn a hole through anything that tries to prevent it from doing so.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    5. Re:It's not all true by Nursie · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Radar - Blumline.

      Not sure if he invented the science behind it, but he was certainly the engineer that made it work properly. Also invented stereo sound recording and playback decades before it was thought of commercially. His (expired) patents ensured that one company couldn't stitch up the entire market.

    6. Re:It's not all true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      going from a radius of, say, 1mm at one km to 2mm at 2km doesn't really make much difference to the brightness, while going from 10cm at 1m to 20cm at 2m does.

      That comparison makes exactly the same difference to the brightness.

      However, going from 10cm at 1m to 200 m at 2km makes the flashlight beam a lot harder to collect at that distance than the 2mm laser beam.

    7. Re:It's not all true by garyebickford · · Score: 2

      IANA EE, but IIRC that's true only for radiated fields. If you can consider the Earth itself as a resonant conductor, then the rules are somewhat differently applied. In present-day applications, another example is any conductor or waveguide. I imagine that he was looking at the entire Earth+atmosphere in those terms. And there is some evidence that some of his work in that area was successful at least in part.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    8. Re:It's not all true by swalve · · Score: 1

      I think that's the key: Tesla didn't just want big-ass transmitters shooting power out, he wanted to create a standing wave that resonated across the planet. I wonder if the magnetic storm in the 1800s that made telegraph wires work without batteries was an inspiration for him.

    9. Re:It's not all true by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      The wireless energy one would be a good example. Tesla was really big on the idea and did a lot of work on it but the reason it never happened wasn't because of some mean conspiracy against him, unless you count the laws of physics

      First, we have directed wireless energy over short ranges today, and it's based on Tesla's earlier work, so to suggest that it didn't happen because of the laws of physics is an unfounded statement on a number of levels. Do you recite a poem and wind up with a schematic in your head that will change the world?

      Electromagnetic waves drop in power with the square of distance from the transmitter

      Assuming that they radiate equally in all directions.

      My bet is that comic spurred this article. The writer was annoyed by this deification of Tesla.

      And yet, he ended up with an article which is wrong where it's not besides the point. Edison hardly invented ANYTHING; he was a bankroller more than he was an inventor. A genius of hiring hard workers. Tesla DID make AC practical. Eyewitnesses state that Tesla demonstrated medium-range wireless power transmission on several occasions. Is there really any evidence that Tesla was full of shit? No. Is there any evidence that Tesla knew what he was talking about? A bit. This article is a troll, a brilliantly successful one as it has generated a lot of traffic for a dying media conglomerate.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    10. Re:It's not all true by claytongulick · · Score: 1

      My understanding (extremely rudimentary) was that Tesla's idea for wireless transmission of power was based on the notion that he could use the entire planet as a giant capacitor, with the earth and ionosphere acting as conducting plates and the air as the insulator.

      His notion was that you could pump a bunch of energy into this giant capacitor, and then tap it anywhere else on the planet.

      Whether this is crackpot or not, I can't say - I'm no EE. But FWIW - Tesla wasn't just trying to beam power with radio waves.

      --
      Drinking habits can be dangerous. You can choke on the cloth and the nuns will wonder where their clothes are.
    11. Re:It's not all true by srmalloy · · Score: 1

      With things like phased array antenna, it's possible to get the beam spread quite low, ...

      Actually, phased-array antennae don't do any better with the inverse-square law than regular antennae do. A phased-array antenna is a grid with a large number of individual antennae, each of which is subject to the inverse-square law. Where a phased-array antenna gets its sensitivity is from applying precisely-controlled delays to the signal being emitted from each antenna in the array to create a constructive-interference signal peak in a tightly-aimed direction -- the emitter-based version of using two or radar telescopes separated by a distance to achieve the resolution of a single telescope as big as the distance between the individual telescopes. The individual antennae, in fact, have particularly poor signal collimation, in order that the synthesized signal have the widest possible sweep angle, and as a result waste the vast majority of the power emitted.

    12. Re:It's not all true by T+Murphy · · Score: 1

      [...] and will happily burn a hole through anything that tries to prevent it from doing so

      Wait, is that a pro or a con?

    13. Re:It's not all true by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      Assuming that they radiate equally in all directions.

      No, assuming a non-zero divergence, which is everything because even the most highly collimated laser beam experiences diffraction. Whether your radiation is best described as a sphere or a cone, you're subject to the inverse-square law.

      Nevertheless good post, and indeed wireless power is possible -- but I think it will remain limited to either low power applications which are more a feature of the modern world than Tesla's, or very specific applications where high-power laser power transmission is feasible. Tesla's dream of every home powered wirelessly is probably not going to come to pass.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
  16. Re:M=T(S^2-A) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can anyone prove this wrong?

    Apparently not.

  17. Re:Go have a look at the Oatmeal's latest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In other words, both Tesla and Edison were human ...

  18. Important facts missing from the post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    2 things:

    1) Congratulations, /., on your new corporate partnership with Forbes. I'm sure it will bring synergistic benefits to both of you.
    2) The article fails to determine the source of the ridiculous Tesla idolatory that has poisoned sensible discussion about his achievements for the last 30 years. In case you didn't know, it can be traced back to one single book: Tesla: Man Out of Time, by Margaret Cheney. That ridiculous hagiography - and its even more ridiculous follow-up, Tesla: Master of Lightning - has a hell of a lot to answer for.

    1. Re:Important facts missing from the post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      2) except that most people admire Tesla for his achievements (or, more appropriately, admire Tesla's achievements), uninfluenced by some pair of books they almost certainly haven't read and perhaps haven't even heard of.

    2. Re:Important facts missing from the post by NoMaster · · Score: 1

      I'm with the AC on this one - I was an apprentice technician back at the time, and Tesla wasn't an unknown genius. We'd covered him in various AC theory subjects & electromechanics, and even learned of Wardenclyffe etc. His contributions, and his failings, were well known at the time,

      Then that book came along, and everything changed. The first one is bordering on the batshit insane (I haven't read the second one) on how Tesla was _special_, almost _unearthly_ , and experimented with _almost magical_ powers - and associated nutjobs flocked to that like flies to a turd. And the whole story has grown like that since then.

      --
      What part of "a well regulated militia" do you not understand?
  19. You joke about DC by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 5, Informative

    But it was legitimately a problem back in the day. The reason was twofold:

    1) There's no good way to generate DC using a mechanical system. So while something like a solar cell will generate you DC, a mechanical generator won't, at least not without some fiddling and then not as efficiently as AC. These days, not a big deal, we have good devices to convert from one to the other quite efficiently. However when the current wars were happening, DC generation wasn't as good as AC generation. You see it to this day: Cars use alternators (as in alternating current) to generate power, despite being DC devices. The alternator then has a rectifier bridge to turn it in to (pulsed) DC power, which the battery helps clean up.

    2) There was no good way to convert DC voltage. AC is exceedingly easy to convert with simple technology: A transformer. You can step it up or down with some wraps of wire, and it is fairly efficient to boot. No such luck with DC. There just isn't a good way to step it up with the technology they had back then. As such you needed generators close to the home. You couldn't run massive voltages, far too dangerous (and as a practical matter difficult to generate directly) and you couldn't go for long runs because of impedance loss. These days thyristors can do the trick nicely but they are 1950s tech, and the ones that can do HVDC are more recent.

    Were we to rebuild the grid these days, DC might well make sense (though it does have some other issues that need to be considered). However during the current wars, Tesla really did have it right. The technology was there to make AC work well, not DC.

    Edison really was fighting for DC because of his invested infrastructure, not because it was a superior technology at the time.

    1. Re:You joke about DC by silentcoder · · Score: 5, Interesting

      >1) There's no good way to generate DC using a mechanical system. So while something like a solar cell will generate you DC, a mechanical generator won't, at least not without some fiddling and then not as efficiently as AC. These days, not a big deal, we have good devices to convert from one to the other quite efficiently. However when the current wars were happening, DC generation wasn't as good as AC generation. You see it to this day: Cars use alternators (as in alternating current) to generate power, despite being DC devices. The alternator then has a rectifier bridge to turn it in to (pulsed) DC power, which the battery helps clean up.

      There is actually an interesting twist to this however which comes into play with very long power lines. The Cahora Bassa hydro-electric dam powers much of South Africa's Gauteng industrial region despite being in another country. Gauteng runs on AC, Cahora Bassa generates AC - but the line between them is DC. It gets rectified at the dam site and then reconverted to AC when it gets to the local grid.
      Obviously that equipment cost a pretty penny - but DC was still cheaper. The reason is that DC only requires as single cable - which can be supported by quite a thin little pole (the ground itself can be the return line).
      So if the line is long enough - running the power over DC can be more economical, you just need enough distance for the cable savings to start to get bigger than the converter costs.

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    2. Re:You joke about DC by am+2k · · Score: 4, Informative

      Gauteng runs on AC, Cahora Bassa generates AC - but the line between them is DC. It gets rectified at the dam site and then reconverted to AC when it gets to the local grid.

      There's another reason for doing that: you can't just stick two AC lines from non-synchronized generators together and expect it to work. They will actually work against each other, and you get a huge mess. This is a problem when combining two power sources from different countries. What's usually done in this case is to do an internal AC/DC/AC conversion to synchronize them.

    3. Re:You joke about DC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      The reason is that DC only requires as single cable - which can be supported by quite a thin little pole (the ground itself can be the return line).

      AC works just fine with ground return as well:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return

      The high voltage supply that runs down my street is a single cable, which then goes into transformers to bring it down to North American domestic voltages. Nothing special DC and single cables.

    4. Re:You joke about DC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cars use alternators (as in alternating current) to generate power, despite being DC devices.

      Mainly because alternators don't have brushes, thus they don't wear out quickly. An alternator doesn't even need to have permanent magnets (an exciter produces a weak magnetic field in a coil, which then gets amplified by mechanical cranking). That means alternators can be extremely small, lightweight, cheap and durable compared to DC motors w/brushes.

      Car alternators and rectifiers are the right way to do it. Especially since the DC in a car is ultimately redundant - the spark plugs need a much higher voltage than 12V, so you're actually converting AC->DC->AC to make the engine work. It's just that batteries and DC are practical for other reasons, like powering the stereo and storing energy. (You're probably thinking there's no such thing as an AC battery, so there's no avoiding DC? That's what a flywheel is - an AC battery.)

      These days thyristors can do the trick nicely but they are 1950s tech, and the ones that can do HVDC are more recent.

      Three cheers for HVDC. (yippie-yip-yip)
      Trying to maintain the same phase between two or more power grids is a big nightmare, so HVDC is the lesser evil. Ultimately it'd make the power generated in one location available in other states or countries.

      Apart from that benefit, HVDC is still a pain. Voltage conversion problems abound (at high power), and then there's the issue of electromigration not present in AC systems.

      It might actually be easier to invent some way to vary the phases of AC, to tie grids together. In the long run.

    5. Re:You joke about DC by xOneca · · Score: 1

      The reason is that DC only requires as single cable - which can be supported by quite a thin little pole (the ground itself can be the return line).

      That can also be done with AC. Note that the return line (Neutral wire) is same as ground. Instrad of three-phase it can also be done with monophased AC, thus having only one wire to carry through poles.

    6. Re:You joke about DC by silentcoder · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And AC was originally practical exactly BECAUSE Tessla managed to invent three-phase... single-phase generators would probably need to be custom designed as I'm not aware of anybody building them en-masse for the non-existent market they may fill...

      Three-phase generators/motors are fundamental to what made the modern electrical world possible in the first place. Technically a single-phase motor cannot even start without an outside push...

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    7. Re:You joke about DC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also: Project Desertec runs entierly on HVDC lines. For the same reasons.

    8. Re:You joke about DC by mark-t · · Score: 2

      1) There's no good way to generate DC using a mechanical system.

      Actually, there is. A conductive disk in a magnetic field and spun such that its axis of revolution is parallel to the field will generate a measurable DC voltage between the center of the disk and its edge. Faraday had discovered this back in his day, and the underlying principle behind its operation baffled many people for many years (some would say that questions remain about it even today). It's an millivoltsextremely efficient generator, actually, but the single biggest problem with it is that the voltages produced from it are typically very low, generally only fractions of a single volt (although Faraday noted that the current produced is actually exceptionally high). Its mode of operation can trivially reversed to produce a DC motor that does not require any sort of commutator. It actually could have stood to be an extremely practical style of generator except for, as you noted...

      2) There was no good way to convert DC voltage.

      ... so while in theory there's a good way to generate as much DC as you want, in the end it's just not very practical for much beyond a "wow, look at that" sort of home experiment.

      To be fair, it is sort of neat to see it actually operating before your eyes when one is only accustomed to knowing how AC motors and generators work.

    9. Re:You joke about DC by Sique · · Score: 1

      I wonder how the little model train then worked, which I had as a child - single phase alternate current at 0-24 V~.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    10. Re:You joke about DC by johnny+cashed · · Score: 1

      Probably a brushed, permanent magnet "universal" motor. "Universal" because they can run on AC or DC.

      OP is referring to induction motors. OP should have also said "polyphase" as one can have more than 3 phases if one wanted.

    11. Re:You joke about DC by crakbone · · Score: 1

      I've had to replace brushes on alternators. "Mainly because alternators don't have brushes, thus they don't wear out quickly. An alternator doesn't even need to have permanent magnets (an exciter produces a weak magnetic field in a coil, which then gets amplified by mechanical cranking). That means alternators can be extremely small, lightweight, cheap and durable compared to DC motors w/brushes." example: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001G7RWVG/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B0019IQA24&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1FPVBZ0D431GJEH6Y5GH

    12. Re:You joke about DC by sjames · · Score: 1

      That is true today. NOW we have the sort of technology that can practically rectify AC and transmit it long distance as DC current, then, the technology to accomplish it (however useful) was half a century away.

      Notably though, AC can also be transmitted in a single wire system and requires less grounding on either end since the Earth need not complete the circuit, only act as a big capacitor. It will suffer losses to radiation though.

    13. Re:You joke about DC by srmalloy · · Score: 3, Informative

      There's another reason for doing that: you can't just stick two AC lines from non-synchronized generators together and expect it to work. They will actually work against each other, and you get a huge mess. This is a problem when combining two power sources from different countries.

      It doesn't have to be different countries. After the Fukushima disaster, the power problems in Japan were compounded because of purchases made more than a hundred years ago. In 1895, the first electrical generators were installed in Tokyo, purchased from AEG in Germany; a year later, Osaka installed generators purchased from General Electric. AEG's generators produced 50-Hz power, while GE's generators produced 60-Hz power. This dichotomy exists to this day, so that western Japan runs on 60-Hz power, while eastern Japan runs on 50-Hz power. There are four back-to-back HVDC convertors at the border between the two grids to convert between the two frequencies, but it didn't have anywhere near the capacity to shift more than a fraction of the load to the western grid after 11 nuclear generators (including the three at Fukushima) were shut down in response to the quake, taking 9.7GW off the eastern grid.

    14. Re:You joke about DC by admiralfurburger · · Score: 1

      :The reason is that DC only requires as single cable - which can be supported by quite a thin little pole (the ground itself can be the return line)."

      You can do that with AC, also. It's called SWER http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return works with ac OR dc...

    15. Re:You joke about DC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've had to replace brushes on alternators.

      Note really the same thing, see here:

      They use slip rings providing greatly extended brush life over a commutator. The brushes in an alternator carry only excitation current, a small fraction of the current carried by the brushes of a DC generator, which carry the generator's entire output. A set of rectifiers (diode bridge) is required to convert AC to DC.

    16. Re:You joke about DC by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      All true, I was talking modern-setting. A century ago, AC was the only viable technology.

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    17. Re:You joke about DC by sChatwin · · Score: 1

      And also there are standing wave issues over long transmission lines. At 50Hz the free-space wavelength is ~3750 miles. So a half wave dipole needs a mere 1875 miles and you suddenly lose lots of power into the ether. Using DC eliminates this problem.

    18. Re:You joke about DC by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      There are several schemes that allow single phase motors. Generally they internally generate a lagging or leading field, and some disable that starter field when the motor reaches a high enough speed.

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    19. Re:You joke about DC by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      The conductive disk generator is not efficient (see Don Lancaster's website). It needs an extremely low resistance sliding contact to pick up the current, and no such thing exists. It also has he problem that the disk itself is inherently a short across the generator. Thirdly, the low voltage generated has few practical uses.

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    20. Re:You joke about DC by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Those alternators that do have brushes should last a lot longer than brushes on a DC generator. The alternator's brushes run on a continuous smooth surface; a DC generator's brushes run on a segmented surface with insulators between each segment, which causes wear.

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    21. Re:You joke about DC by Falconhell · · Score: 1

      Actually it is the resistance of AC to sustained arcing that affects the wear.

    22. Re:You joke about DC by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      Exactly. That's why I said technically they need a push to start - providing such a push is an engineering problem we've long since solved, but it wasn't solved back when Tessla invented 3-phase. The motor/generator he worked from still needed a manual push before it would get going.

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
  20. Tesla by horselight · · Score: 0, Troll

    Tesla was hundreds of years ahead of his time. He developed technology to transit power through the air itself (of course none of this technology would allow TV, radio, or satellite to function if it were in use today). He invented radio (and won a lawsuit against marconi in the US supreme Court finding he invented it and marconi ripped it off). There is enormous speculation about his death and his later work in dealing with bending space-time -- many claim he succeeded. He was however, considered somewhat of a showman, and by some ,a charlatan, but his achievements speak for themselves. Tesla was someone who existed in another reality of his own creation. He was born 100 years apart from me on the same day. I think I can understand how he felt.

    1. Re:Tesla by janimal · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure his over the air power transmittion would eliminate TV or radio. It was supposed to be thorugh capacitance vibrations. Transmitting information via an electromagnetically vibrating atmosphere might hit the same hurdles as ethernet over power lines. Off the top of my head I don't see any reason other than business that his towers of power wouldn't work along side of radio communication. But then again, I almost failed electromagnetics.

    2. Re:Tesla by Nursie · · Score: 1

      Yeah, no.

      This is exactly what we're talking about. Clever fella, certainly. God who took with him to the grave secrets we haven't discovered even to this day? Not so much.

      Oh wait, was this a troll?

      "There is enormous speculation about his death and his later work in dealing with bending space-time"

      He bent space time after his death?

    3. Re:Tesla by Khyber · · Score: 1

      No, Tesla very likely figured out a way to distort time quantization while screwing around with electricity. At least, that's what has been postulated.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    4. Re:Tesla by crakbone · · Score: 1

      If he bent space time I would guess it could have been done after his death.

    5. Re:Tesla by Khyber · · Score: 1

      For those modding me down, keep at it. It's obvious we're a few decades ahead of you in temporal theory.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    6. Re:Tesla by sleigher · · Score: 1

      Longitudinal waves. Standing Waves. Scalar Waves. All names of the same thing. A guy named Eric Dollard in CA did research on Tesla and evidently created the same single wire, ground, and air energy transmission system that Tesla did. He has displayed this publicly and as far as I know he attributes all of it to Tesla. I have read about this a bit, and there are groups who are actively pursuing this technology as well as the theory behind it, as it falls outside of classical EM theory. As far as E. Dollard, the displays are understood to be real and what Tesla discovered also real. History has been unkind to the man.

      --
      All points of time and space are connected.
  21. Is that really Nikola Tesla? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...Or is it the Ron Mael from off of Sparks?
    Tesla / Edison: This town ain't big enough for both of us.

  22. Nope. by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Edison was pretty much the devil. He tortured puppies to make AC look dangerous. That makes him arguably a puppy killing terrorist. Also, the article claims that Edison solved "a very tough engineering problem", when it basically amounted to just changing the filament. That's a relatively minor step that resulted in a major change in commercial viability, sort of a straw that broke the horses back thing, and his choice of filament was replaced in the bulb we know today.

    --
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  23. Grey fallacy by ZankerH · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The groundless assumption that since neither extreme can be true, the truth must be precisely in the middle.

  24. Only one truly matters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Communism > Socialism > Capitalism

    Sincerely,

    Signed: The Rest of the World

    1. Re:Only one truly matters by surd1618 · · Score: 1

      O hurray, another politics thread! I expected joke thread, then thread about TFA, then politics thread. But thank goodness it popped right up!

    2. Re:Only one truly matters by whitroth · · Score: 2

      Ignorant and ideological, in just a few words. It goes capitalism->socialism, since the latter came *in* *response* to capitalism. Try reading Marx's Captial, with his analysis and description of "unbridled capitalism" that existed in the 1800s... and the the right wing in the US is trying to reinstate now.

      Socialism and the Labor (sorry, Labour, for you Canadians, Aussies, and Brits) are why you, personally, have a) holiday, b) weekends, c) any benefits from your job whatsoever, beyond the right of your boss to tell you "whatever it takes", and insist you work 60 or 80 hours weeks.

      To quote Chaz Mulligan in Zelazny's Stand on Zanzibar, you're an ignorant idiot.

                          mark

    3. Re:Only one truly matters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To quote Chaz Mulligan in Zelazny's Stand on Zanzibar,

      I think you'll find Brunner wrote SoZ, not Zelazny.

      As for the quote, I have no idea if you got that right, not having read SoZ yet. Keep meaning to try to track down a copy...

  25. Re:M=T(S^2-A) by Chrisq · · Score: 2

    Can anyone prove this wrong?

    Apparently not.

    In fact my cat has just told me that its positively correct.

  26. You bring Edison in here.... by sciencejunky · · Score: 1

    Ill raise you Newton, F=ma. Guess what's accelerating.......... Tesla accomplished more when he worked for edison, no, when he was contracted by edison, than Edison ever thought up in his lifetime. Edison made money, Tesla helped make our present world. Alex, you're an idiot. That's like saying Newton did it by himself. Newton was a genius, no doubt, but he adopted the capernican system, which in turn was Ptalumei. I its early and my spelling sucks while driving in traffic after logging in after 1.5 yrs, retrieving passwords etc, just to point out how much of an idiot Alex is. Tesla rules!

  27. Often overlooked fact re Edison by clickclickdrone · · Score: 4, Informative

    He had a huge staff who did the vast bulk of his R&D and a significant % (possibly the majoroty) of his achievements were actually made by his staff with Edison just facilitating their efforts and then claiming the kudos.

    --
    I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
    1. Re:Often overlooked fact re Edison by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He had a huge staff who did the vast bulk of his R&D and a significant % (possibly the majoroty) of his achievements were actually made by his staff with Edison just facilitating their efforts and then claiming the kudos.

      Truly, he was the Steve Jobs of his day.

      Not even kidding, and that's not a knock against Jobs or Edison. Sometimes, the megalomaniacs can bring smart people together and browbeat them into doing things that would take decades to accomplish if they'd been left to tinker on their own.

    2. Re:Often overlooked fact re Edison by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have to wonder how close this is to the Steve Jobs approach. How much actual engineering did Steve do? He gets all the credit as well, but I'd suspect that he drove design descisions and hardware/software engineers did the work.

    3. Re:Often overlooked fact re Edison by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So he was the Steve Jobs of that time. That explains a lot. ^^

    4. Re:Often overlooked fact re Edison by crakbone · · Score: 1

      I always saw Steve Jobs as the architect. He did not invent the Ipod but he made sure the design would sell. He demanded that people be able to get any song quickly and easily sending engineers back to the drawing board till they gave him a design he liked.

    5. Re:Often overlooked fact re Edison by Teancum · · Score: 1

      How is that different from a modern research laboratory? Of the inventions that Edison actually made, creating the modern R&D lab was perhaps is best accomplishment where he also invented mushroom management over the workers in that lab. Edison is the prototype of the pointy-haired boss that Scott Adams draws on occasion. Well, a cross between a pointy-haired boss and an early 20th century version of Iron Man, but I think that is sort of where the inspiration for Iron Man came from as well.

    6. Re:Often overlooked fact re Edison by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have to wonder how close this is to the Steve Jobs approach. How much actual engineering did Steve do? He gets all the credit as well, but I'd suspect that he drove design descisions and hardware/software engineers did the work.

      Jobs didn't ever do much engineering for Apple, even in his original stint as one of the founders.

      I don't have a link to it offhand, but there's a video somewhere on youtube of Jobs speaking at an internal Apple event, addressing a gathering of Apple engineers. He steps out and gets a huge round of applause, and the first thing he says when it dies down is something about how humbled he feels because the people applauding him are the ones doing all the hard work. (Which gets even more applause, naturally.)

      There's also numerous examples of him thanking 3rd party developers during WWDC keynote speeches because Apple 'wouldn't be anywhere without them', or words to that effect. And when he talks about Apple's technical accomplishments, it's always "we" not "I".

      Much of the whole 'Jobs invented X, Y, and Z' thing is due to the way the press favors simplified narratives with individual heroes. I mean, there's no doubt the guy had a colossal ego and was good at self-promotion, but that doesn't mean he believed or claimed he could do everything his engineers did. (*) Instead, his hubris was more along the lines of 'I can identify insanely smart people, hire them, and direct them to do better things as a team than they would've on their own'.

      * - It's interesting to contrast this with stories about Bill Gates' management style at Microsoft, back when he was active. There are bajillions of stories floating around on the net where BillG intimidates underlings with his technical chops. He'd call a meeting with a project manager and some of the project's major team members, and would be able to provide pointed criticisms of the actual source code at both low and high levels. Or, if he hadn't read it, he'd still be able to see through bullshit with almost uncanny accuracy. Due to this style of management-by-technical-intimidation there was a lot of internal mythology in Microsoft about how BillG was hands down the smartest programmer in the company, even though he didn't actually write much code. So in Microsoft, they did have a CEO whom everyone believed could do their job, if he chose to.

      (I suspect this is why Ballmer never fit that well as a replacement. Ballmer's background was marketing, so he never stood a chance of truly filling Gates' shoes in Microsoft's tech alpha male culture.)

  28. What about Charles Steinmetz? by Relayman · · Score: 3, Interesting

    A discussion of the development of electricity without mentioning Charles Proteus Steinmetz is incomplete. You are pandering to the people with the big PR departments and an army of lawyers instead of the ones who really got things done.

    Steinmetz understood how to build three-phase motors (the standard for big motors today) better than anyone in the early days.

    --
    If I used a sig over again, would anyone notice?
    1. Re:What about Charles Steinmetz? by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      +1. I was thinking about posting this myself. One of my early geek influences was a book I read in grade school about Steinmetz. The Wikipedia article does not really present the significance of his work. As I recall even Tesla's AC would not have been successful in the long term, without some of the contributions of Steinmetz. He was playing with generating 120 KV 'lightning' and collecting lightning from towers before Tesla. Also his personal history is interesting. (He refused to get married because he had an inherited dwarfism that he did not want to pass on.)

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    2. Re:What about Charles Steinmetz? by Relayman · · Score: 1

      There's a story that another three-phase motor manufacturer (Westinghouse?) had built a prototype that didn't work and asked GE to loan Steinmetz for a day. Steinmetz listened as they described their design then took a piece of chalk and put a mark on the motor and explained what they needed to do to fix it. GE billed the other motor manufacturer $10,000 for Steinmetz's services. The other manufacturer balked and asked for an itemized bill. GE complied:

      Putting mark on motor: $1
      Knowing where to put mark: $9,999

      --
      If I used a sig over again, would anyone notice?
    3. Re:What about Charles Steinmetz? by greg1104 · · Score: 1

      Lies! That urban legend was really about Tesla. You must also be part of the conspiracy to discredit him.

    4. Re:What about Charles Steinmetz? by Teancum · · Score: 2

      I think there are a number of people that you could include in any list of people important to the development of electricity and electrical technologies. Off the top of my head, I can think of several others:

      • Benjamin Franklin
      • Alessandro Volta
      • Georg Ohm
      • Michael Faraday
      • Joseph Henry
      • Charles Wheatstone
      • Charles-Augustin de Coulomb
      • Philo Farnsworth
      • Guglielmo Marconi

      That is just barely scratching the surface. I didn't know much about Steinmetz myself, but after reading the link you provided he certainly should be included with the other gentlemen on this list along with Edison and Tesla.

  29. Drunk History by 16Chapel · · Score: 1

    Everything you really need to know about Tesla vs Edison:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gOR91oentQ

  30. Confusing political systems with economic ones. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Communism > Socialism > Capitalism

    Sincerely,

    Signed: The Rest of the World

    Socialism and Capitalism are economic systems.

    Communism is a political system - a rather brutish one.

    And as far as Socialism > Captialism? In a dualistic World where you're only allowed to have one or the other I'd have to reverse that sign. OTOH, some of the Scandincian countries have interesting blends of the two systems and the thing that REALLY intrigues me is that they are ALWAYS on the top of the list when it comes to happiness and freedom.

    I'll take being happy over rich anyday.

    It's not your fault. We here in the US are pounded by propaganda like any other peoples living under an exploitive power elite.

    1. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by AvitarX · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's a lot easier to be socialist when your defense and medical R&D are covered by other countries.

      I wish the US would see this and stop doing so for the rest of the world. It's really annoying as a US citizen to be spending 4 times (as a percentage of GDP) on our military as Germany (I think we can trust them now). Yet we pretty much mandate it to be so.

      Additionally we pay more for the same medicine because our government refuses to take a stand on this issue, while other governments do. I'd like to see a law that no medicine or medical devices can be sold in the US for over the average price in the rest of the G8.

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    2. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by Internetuser1248 · · Score: 1, Troll

      It's a lot easier to be socialist when your defense and medical R&D are covered by other countries.

      I wish the US would see this and stop doing so for the rest of the world. It's really annoying as a US citizen to be spending 4 times (as a percentage of GDP) on our military as Germany (I think we can trust them now). Yet we pretty much mandate it to be so.

      Additionally we pay more for the same medicine because our government refuses to take a stand on this issue, while other governments do. I'd like to see a law that no medicine or medical devices can be sold in the US for over the average price in the rest of the G8.

      The rest of the world partly agrees with you. The US euphemism 'defence' really means 'offence' and the world could do with a lot less US offence. As far as medical research, whilst the US is a very valuable contributor, there are also areas where US patent law and laws about stem cells and similar actually impede the research of other nations. I think we will be alright without that too if it comes to that.

    3. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by Alex+Belits · · Score: 2

      Signed those of us smart enough to remember socialists/communists equal everyone is poor and starving and most of the time disappear.Oh all socialists/communists are the laziest scum you'll ever meet.

      Not sure if it was supposed to be serious. If it was, someone is a... proud American patriot.

      Also Communism (as the stage of society's development when oppression and trade become unnecessary to support the production that supports society members' needs) is both a social and economic system. It's a separate question if such development is possible or desirable, but that's the definition given to it by Communists themselves. The definition of "Communism" as a "society in a country with Communist party in power" was only ever used by anti-Communist propaganda -- for this reason it can't be taken seriously, no matter how much such propaganda was loud and widespread.

      --
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    4. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by queBurro · · Score: 1

      +1, interesting and informative! if Scandincian is a real world I propose this to be the best /. post ever

      --
      sag
    5. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by Sique · · Score: 1

      Neither Sweden nor Finland are member states of the NATO, and both were frontier states in the Cold War. No one else paid for their defense.

      So this argument is moot.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    6. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by tnk1 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Neither Sweden nor Finland are member states of the NATO, and both were frontier states in the Cold War. No one else paid for their defense.

      So this argument is moot.

      A fact that ignores more complicated equations of geopolitical power struggles. Finland and Sweden were allowed to remain neutral because it suited the powers to allow that. For that same reason Switzerland remained neutral in WWII: it would have been too inconvenient to attack when it could be counted on to remain faithfully neutral. Both countries had just enough defense to make them undesirable as a target while the Soviets faced NATO. Don't confuse that with not needing NATO. They relied on NATO's existence as much as any member state did.

      Don't confuse being a secondary target with not needing collective defense. Which is also the point made about socialist medical care: it works fine, while someone else is willing to foot the bill for it. Europe should be paying lobbyists in Washington to keep the US well away from national health care and price controls on drugs. Once the US stops paying for the drugs, good luck maintaining your cheap supply.

    7. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "Also Communism (as the stage of society's development when oppression and trade become unnecessary to support the production that supports society members' needs) is both a social and economic system."

      Also Communism -- according to this definition -- has never actually existed. The most anybody was ever able to achieve in that direction was a bad form of socialism.

    8. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by Sique · · Score: 1

      Which is also the point made about socialist medical care: it works fine, while someone else is willing to foot the bill for it. Europe should be paying lobbyists in Washington to keep the US well away from national health care and price controls on drugs. Once the US stops paying for the drugs, good luck maintaining your cheap supply.

      Another one of the "we pay for everyone else" misconceptions. The same complaint you can read in german newspapers, in french newspapers, in about every country that has some biochemical or medical enterprises. "Our health system has to pay for the research, and then the drugs get marketed cheaply everywhere else."

      Wrong. A medicamentation will be sold for exactly that price the market in the country will bear. Why should an american company sell a drug more cheaply in a "socialist healthcare" country? Because they want to support socialist medicine? Because they care for the poor downtrodden masses in an oppressive socialist country? There is only one reason: the market there is competitive enough that higher prices can't be realized. If you pay more in the U.S. for healthcare, it's because the healthcare market is not efficient enough.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    9. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "bad form of socialism" aka: "state capitalism", or in China "Socialism with Chinese characteristics (Zhongguotese Shehuizhuyi)". ./ doesn't support unicode :( ?

    10. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by Eponymous+Hero · · Score: 1

      applies to education too.

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    11. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "'bad form of socialism' aka: 'state capitalism', or in China 'Socialism with Chinese characteristics'..."

      Sure. True communism, as GP defined it, has no central government. Real-world examples of what they call "communism" have all -- every one of them, every time -- had a strong central government. Therefore it isn't communism at all, but rather socialism. No matter what they call it, it ain't communism.

      Examples: N. Korea, (former) N. Vietnam, (former) Soviet Union, China, etc.

    12. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's a lot easier to be socialist when your defense and medical R&D are covered by other countries.

      I wish the US would see this and stop doing so for the rest of the world. It's really annoying as a US citizen to be spending 4 times (as a percentage of GDP) on our military as Germany (I think we can trust them now). Yet we pretty much mandate it to be so.

      Additionally we pay more for the same medicine because our government refuses to take a stand on this issue, while other governments do. I'd like to see a law that no medicine or medical devices can be sold in the US for over the average price in the rest of the G8.

      IOW, you believe in one of the most pernicious lies at the center of the US healthcare debate: that the Holy Free Market is solely responsible for medical research, and socialized medicine is trying to be a freeloader.

      I'll give you a hint: most of the United States' contribution to basic pharmacology research is done in academic institutions on grant money from the U.S. government. The pharmaceutical companies only get involved once there's a promising compound that looks like it could be commercially valuable. Most of their in-house R&D budget is for productization, not innovation.

      Furthermore, a lot of that R&D budget goes towards gaming the drug patent system, rather than real patient benefits. They'll take an existing drug, "improve" it by adding an atom here or there, sponsor a lot of studies to "prove" that it's more effective than the old version, and patent the new one. And charge an arm and a leg for it. Rinse, repeat as the patents run out. There's a lot of reasons to believe this product churn does little to nothing for patient health and exists solely to funnel money into pharmaceutical corporations. (Said reasons including not just cynicism but studies on real world efficacy of old vs. new versions of drugs.)

      Oh, and you're also buying into the myth that fully socialized healthcare nations contribute nothing to research. It's simply not true. Guess what, in a socialized system you, the voter, can help decide that some of the budget gets allocated to research! Who knew?!!

      As for things which are not-drugs... where, I ask, is the free market surgical technique R&D? You'll find that most research in this area is performed by academics.

      It's a lot easier to be libertarian about healthcare when you're blissfully unaware of the actual role the "free market" plays even in the supposedly hardcore-capitalist USA. Wake up.

    13. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by Xarvh · · Score: 1

      The US, and every other nation for that, uses its own army exclusively for its own gain.
      It's deluded to think otherwise.
      Or all of the sudden the US has become a bastion of compassion and altruism?

      It's like the school bully believing he's the police.

    14. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      WRT to drugs, that's not what I'm saying at all.

      I'm saying the the US health industry costs more for the same thing, that is where the profit comes from. I know that social countries do research, and it pays off when they sell the drugs in America.

      In what way was I libertarian about medicine? I think I mentioned a price-cap, If on-patent medicine costs more per a pill in the US than Canada, it factually means the US is funding more of the research (into marketability and profits). I think I said the free market in healthcare was fucking the US people, not helping.

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    15. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      There were a lot of spillover benefits to the US nuclear program, even if the motive wasn't for them.

      We're a bastion of corrupt mess, but that corrupt mess is worth 1-2 percent of GDP to many other developed nations. In 2008 the excess military spending by the US was 30-50% of the deficit.

      Allowing countries to defend themselves (we don't actually let them, I'm not blaming other countries, only the US), would go a long way to deficit reduction.

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    16. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by Xarvh · · Score: 1

      There is a considerable ROI for the US, coming from the political and economic pressure they can apply through their army, just think about the Oil control, that many countries are forced to pay in dollars.
      True, most of this ROI ends in the pockets of few rich elites.

      Consider also that most of the suppliers are in the US themselves: the US is not losing that much money.
      Is just transferring them from the citizens to the rich elites.

      But it's much better to think that you hare the Holy Warrior that keeps the World at Peace and everybody should be Thankful of your Noble Effort...

    17. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      what they call "communism"

      No Communist Party ever claimed that they have implemented Communism -- they (correctly) called the system they had "Socialism". Khruschev famously made a statement that "The current generation of Soviet people will live under Communism", and even though he was wrong, he definitely expected Communism to be implemented decades ahead in the future. Brezhnev added a long stage of "Developed Socialism" that is supposed to come before Communism, mostly to explain why his government is not busy advancing the society toward Communism (in reality he was just incompetent as a government leader, politician and -- especially -- a Communist).

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    18. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      Quite the opposite, actually. There are a number of countries that use their power as provider of health care to a greater portion of the population to dictate pricing and discounts. The pharmaceutical companies go along with it because they do make some money on it, but also to appease the governments. In actuality, it's not a bad deal for their people. The problem is, someone has to pay for the costs of research and certification before the drug in question goes out of patent and ends up being formulated as a generic. At the moment, that cost is made up for by the countries that do not dictate pricing.

      Sure, competition can affect pricing, but honestly, that isn't the problem here. Most of the countries you are talking about don't let "competition" affect pricing. In fact, in many cases, there is no competition yet, as the drug is under patent. Of course, when the drug is out of patent protection, they are the first systems to jump right to generics.

    19. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      Again you imply I think it's noble. I think it's bullshit. Germany, Japan, and south Korea can all defend themselves. So can isreal.

      The us government is losing lots of money funding the military, and until their suppliers start providing social programs, that's what's relavent to the discussion.

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    20. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no such things as capitalism apparently for any form of social welfare equates to socialism, so in a true capitalist system if someone mugs you its up to you to pay for a private detective to track them down and a private justice system to get your money back and punish them, or rely on charity handouts to pay your bills. Instead off accepting government handouts of the social welfare police force and social welfare legal system, I don't know how privatising the military would work as they are one of the biggest forms of social welfare. There may be some countries in the third world where the government have broken down where you have pure capitalism. Of interest the origins of mafias are as a private police force but they where pushed out thanks to socialist social welfare security (police) forces.

    21. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by Sique · · Score: 1

      This argument goes against all economical theory. If I can't recoup the cost of development with the prices I get from the market, I won't be marketing at all, or I would only market stuff whose R&D is already paid for. There is absolutely no reason for me to go into markets where I will not see a profit, and if the healthcare is so heavily regulated that I will never recoup my development costs there, why dump my products cheaply? It won't buy me any market advantages in the future, because the market will still be heavily regulated in the future too, and I will still not be able to sell my products with enough profits. So this market in general will be a generics only market, and almost no drugs whose patents are not expired yet will be ever marketed there. We would see a healthcare system with low survival rates for a lot of ailments other markets have better cures for and in general we will see a lower life expectancy.
      In fact,all of the socialist healthcare systems are in countries with higher life expectancy than countries with comparable wealth but less socialist healthcare systems. Even the U.S., which has the highest survival rates for cancer and heart strokes in the world, still has a lower life expectancy than most other developed nations. So either cancer and heart stroke rates are higher in the U.S. than everywhere else (why would that be?), or the U.S. healthcare systems fail in about every other aspect of healthcare. It could just mean that the U.S. spends lots of money to threat cancer and heart strokes and puts lots of money into research of cancer and heart stroke drugs, but is not able to manage health in general.
      It seems like the U.S. car industry of the mid-1970ies and early 1980ies complaining that the japanese carmakers can only sell cars that cheaply because the U.S. car industry does all the research and japanese carmakers just copy. It is a similar irrational argument.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    22. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      would you care to elaborate how the US are "paying for drugs" in Finland and Sweden?

    23. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by lessthan · · Score: 1

      He thinks that you think we are doing it "for a noble cause, to protect our allies." Not that you agree that it is noble, only that you believe that those who are doing it are doing it for nobility's sake. He feels that that is untrue, he believes that the military/industrial complex of the United States, the private companies that leech defense money off the government, are spending money to corrupt our politicians into these delusions of "world police" to continue receiving defense money. Same thought, different angle. We all think it is bullshit and that it needs to stop.

      --
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    24. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      Fair enough.

      I think the rest of the world has a spill-over benefit from the corrupt system, that perhaps has its roots in legitimacy (being relatively untouched in WWII put the US in a unique position for a lot of things). A leg up in medicine (Switzerland and the US are where the drug companies tend to reside), and tech (though England's fear of tech was responsible for that too), military (the US had more money to spend, and didn't need to be rebuilt).

      It's pretty obvious to anyone that can think at this point that it's just a self-feeding rip-off the populous machine, it doesn't mean other countries don't gain fro it in ways too though.

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    25. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're confusing facts with fantasy and speculation.

      Finland was not 'allowed' to remain neutral. It strove for neutrality during the cold war, and achieved it. The political situation was a bit more complex in Finland than 'relying on NATO'. It's like saying you need warts to avoid HIV. Protection extended by NATO to Finland, a former part of Russia and a losing country in WWII, was doubtful, also because Finland intentionally kept cool relations towards NATO.

      Your drug price control reference is also bit skewed. They aren't selling drugs for loss here in Europe. Mostly the drug price controls have been linked to reductions in developing new drugs. And even this isn't a fact, but speculation. Generic drugs tend to cost more here in Europe, although patented drugs cost less. Are you just cherry picking the things that make your points seem valid?

      You could talk fact about health care if you wanted, not 'price speculation'. Check OECD mortality rates (queue 1/1), infant mortality, life expectancy vs. cost per GDP, there are several studies (hint: US isn't doing great).

    26. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "No Communist Party ever claimed that they have implemented Communism..."

      Perhaps so... but everybody else did. That was the misconception to which I was referring.

      And like many Socialist leaders, I highly doubt Brezhnev's private beliefs matched his public pronouncements. Socialist leaders have never wanted to give up their power, once achieved... thus true Communism will never exist.

    27. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      And like many Socialist leaders, I highly doubt Brezhnev's private beliefs matched his public pronouncements.

      Brezhnev was stupid, and most likely a narcissist, but not a sadist or sociopath. His actions are consistent with genuinely trying to advance Communist doctrine, but being too much of a fuckup to accomplish anything but harm.

      Socialist leaders have never wanted to give up their power, once achieved... thus true Communism will never exist.

      That's a load of bullshit. Capitalist leaders never given up power, either, they just maintain an ever-changing figurehead as a lip service to democracy. Communists were simply more honest -- experienced leader that has no way to personally benefit from his decisions (because he already has everything a person can have, but can't quit the system and become a capitalist and can't leave anything to his children) is better than a temporary leader that spends eight making sure that he will be rich and powerful after his time is up.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    28. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      's/spends eight/spends eight years/'

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    29. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "Capitalist leaders never given up power, either, they just maintain an ever-changing figurehead as a lip service to democracy."

      It's not bullshit, because that is completely irrelevant to what I wrote. First off (the whole topic of this thread): capitalism is not a political ideology, it is an economic system. Technically speaking, there are no "capitalist leaders".

      But second: democracy does not require leaders to give up power, except in the sense of being voted out, or term limits. So it's a completely different situation. True communism requires an absence of central leadership, while democracy does not. Further, Socialist leaders are almost never elected, in any genuine sense.

      Therefore, the desire for power damn near guarantees that anything approaching real Communism will never exist.

    30. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "Communists were simply more honest..."

      That's the most hilarious thing I've read in weeks.

    31. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      Did you even read what this conversation is about? We have already covered "what-is-Communism", multiple times.

      And of course, there is a political ideology of Capitalism (and it is not Democracy or Republic)! All economic systems have political ideologies behind them.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    32. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      You are a true American patriot.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    33. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "We have already covered "what-is-Communism", multiple times."

      Yes, as I pointed out to you. But you made a comment about "capitalist leaders", when from the context it seemed pretty obvious you meant "democratic" or "democratic republic" leaders.

      "And of course, there is a political ideology of Capitalism (and it is not Democracy or Republic)!"

      Of course there is. But please tell me: who practices it?

    34. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "You are a true American patriot."

      Perhaps, but irrelevant. What I am that is relevant is a student of economic and political history.

      Communist leaders were not "more honest" than those of the so-called "free world". In fact almost without exception they got where they were through lies, deception, and propaganda (which itself pretty much by definition consists of lies and deception).

      Not that others are immune to that; George W. Bush and Barack Obama being two glaring examples. But until very recently the degree of lies and deception in the "free world" could not hold a candle to that practiced in the so-called "Communist" regimes. Wholesale censorship was and is the norm, for just one example.

    35. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      But until very recently the degree of lies and deception in the "free world" could not hold a candle to that practiced in the so-called "Communist" regimes.

      Perhaps "until recently" when "recently" is defined as "since 17th century".

      Wholesale censorship was and is the norm, for just one example.

      Oh yes, this whole freedom of speech crap.

      Communist leaders restricted freedom of speech because they themselves given up the freedom of listening -- by their own policy all officials had an obligation to respond and take action for everything that was published in any government publications if it applied to the scope of their power. Getting things published was a hurdle that one had to overcome to get things done by the government. A person that overcame the censorship (and it was always possible unless you are stupid -- it was a pretty good test of intellect that plenty of people, sadly, failed) is automatically an accomplished lobbyist.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    36. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "Communist leaders restricted freedom of speech because they themselves given up the freedom of listening -- by their own policy all officials had an obligation to respond and take action for everything that was published in any government publications if it applied to the scope of their power."

      Oh, good Grid, you really believe that bilge?

      I really hate to tell you this, bud, but history VERY clearly shows that these idealistic goals were not only not accomplished, but were never even attempted with any degree of credibility. You are echoing propaganda, not reality.

      THEN you attempt to paint censorship in some kind of positive light as... what? Some kind of evolutionist challenge?

      Great FSM. At first I thought I was having a discussion with a rational person.

    37. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      Oh, good Grid, you really believe that bilge?

      I have seen it.
      Journalists didn't publish to inform the people -- people don't make decisions and don't elect officials on issues at a scale that matters for most people anyway. Journalists published to shame and provoke the officials into doing the right things, that requires courage, but in the end it works, and elections don't. With "freedom of speech" such a system is impossible -- anything written can be dismissed as a tinfoil lunacy. This was a fundamental difference between investigative journalism in Capitalist societies and in USSR. Considering that most people can't hire lobbyists but can find a smart journalist, I fine the variant with censorship and mandatory reaction to published word a superior and much more egalitarian system. Ironically, after dissolution of USSR, people stopped reading newspapers, and when they did, only to discuss, who paid for what editorial. "Free speech" robbed them from investigative journalism being an effective lobby and advocacy mechanism.

      I really hate to tell you this, bud, but history VERY clearly shows that these idealistic goals were not only not accomplished, but were never even attempted with any degree of credibility. You are echoing propaganda, not reality.

      I lived there, you moron!

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    38. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      s/fine/find/
      s/robbed them from/robbed them of/

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    39. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "I lived there, you moron!"

      It is glaringly obvious that you lived there, and if you think I'm a moron, come sit next to me and we'll take the same IQ test, see who comes out on top.

      The fact that you lived there impresses me not at all. In this case it simply indicates to me that your indoctrination is showing.

      As it happens, I know a great many people who lived there, and very few of them, if any, agree with you. Which is why they no longer live there.

      Further: it is not reasonable or rational, during the transition from a corrupt socialist state to an even more corrupt semi-capitalist economic system, to expect old systems to work the same way they used to.

    40. Re:Confusing political systems with economic ones. by gay358 · · Score: 1

      Drug companies use more money on advertisements than on R&D. And at least in Finland drug advertisements is quite limited (because of laws against it) compared to US.

  31. Forbes by SteelCat · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Business magazine says businessman better than engineer" shocker.

    1. Re:Forbes by Dusty101 · · Score: 1

      Mod parent "Insightful".

  32. The hipsters would like you to know by hessian · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Um... that's not different enough.

    They teach us about Thomas Edison in schools. Everyone thinks he's great. Therefore, there must be another way.

    To be hip, we talk about Tesla instead. You probably haven't heard of him.

    1. Re:The hipsters would like you to know by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They teach kids in US about Edison in schools.
      In Russia they teach about Popov, in Italy about Marconi as inventors of radio. It was recognized at US court as Tesla's invention.
      In Smitsonian museum in Washington D.C. there are big letters first American in space. Somewhere way below hidden in smallprint can be seen who was first human in space (Soviet Gagarin).

    2. Re:The hipsters would like you to know by goodmanj · · Score: 2

      From your English I'm guessing you're Russian. This is off topic, but just to let you know, the Smithsonian exhibit for Mercury Friendship 7 is pretty honest about the fact that Gagarin came first. Here's a picture of the placard in the Smithsonian:

      http://www.flickr.com/photos/cdevers/5775250515/

    3. Re:The hipsters would like you to know by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They also teach us about Einstein in schools. And Shakespeare. And many, many others whose names still command respect among the "hip".

      So either your theory is only applicable to Edison for some mysterious reason, or you're wrong.

      Not saying the education system is perfect. Far from it. I'm just saying that Tesla's popularity is not the product of arbitrary childish rebellion. It's the product of people learning that they've been duped.

  33. Tesla is supreme. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The fact that he dismantled his death ray after that unfortunate accident in Tunguska, instead of using it to wipe Edison's laboratory off the face of the planet, proves both the man's vision and magnanmity.

  34. Tesla tech hidden? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Some of those who feel Tesla really did make some breakthroughs he kept hidden, also feel the government has developed and used that tech secretly. Now I am skeptical, but open minded. Is there and evidence or informed belief such things have actually happened? The field of wireless power seems to have the most vague claims, likely because of Tesla's claims.

    My reading of Tesla himself was he gave great credit to those who published before him, even using really old published reports to refute Edison's claims on relativity (wrongly).

    My takeaway from that era was there were barons who owned and deployed all these major technologies such as oil, power distribution, rail, trucking, telegraph, telephone.

    The areas we see that these days are more virtual than physical, such as Yahoo, AOL, Microsoft, Facebook.

    Probably the more physical examples are Nortel fiber, Worldcom internet, Apple devices, IBM big iron, Verizon networks, GE turbines.

    But because of the capital shortage caused by government hoarding we do not see "big things" right now and lots of whining about infrastructure construction shortages. The solution is literally a stroke of the pen. No deficit, maybe a small surplus on FEDGOV.

    That can actually easily be done with a single policy action inspired by the GM and Chrysler bondholder swipe-rip. Presidential order for a -10% COLA on all public sector unionized employees on salaries and pensions. Solves the budget problem federally, state, which is a real crisis, county, and local. All at once with pain a small fraction of what the non-union portion of the population has already experienced.

    JJ

  35. wikipedia by dutchwhizzman · · Score: 2

    I presume you have wikipedia to back up this claim?

    --
    I was promised a flying car. Where is my flying car?
    1. Re:wikipedia by egamma · · Score: 4, Funny

      I presume you have wikipedia to back up this claim?

      Give me 5 minutes and I will!

  36. History repeats itself by roger_pasky · · Score: 1

    Edison = Jobs, Tesla = Ritchie

    1. Re:History repeats itself by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Steve Jobs hated jews? I didn't know that!

  37. elephants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    After what I saw edison did to the elephants, and the IP agreements he made his
    employees sign, I lost all respect for the man both his intellect and his person.

    Edison was a dark and troubled person. Killing something just to prove a point -
    someone else did that, too...

  38. Hollywood still pissed of Edison? by DollyTheSheep · · Score: 3, Interesting

    When I was a kid 30 years ago, Edison was still the undisputed old god of engineering. It only was later, that he became villified as the suppressor of Tesla and AC. I think, it has todo with Edison's viewpoint towards intellectual property. He and his colleagues at Menlo Park invented mainly and did not produce anything, so he relied on patent fees. He procescuted anyone who produced stuff that violtated one of his many patents including early movie technology. This forced movie people from the east coast to the west. The rest is history. Tesla was clearly the far better, more visionary scientist. Edison remains the more important inventor and engineer (lightbulb, phonograph, movie technology).

    1. Re:Hollywood still pissed of Edison? by O('_')O_Bush · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I see it as a sign of the times. 30 years ago, in the depths of the Cold War, of course the US would acknowledge one of their own, a born and bred American, over a competitor from a Soviet bloc country.

      --
      while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
    2. Re:Hollywood still pissed of Edison? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because a European country doesn't belong to NATO, doesn't mean that by default it belongs to a Soviet block. That is a very common misconception taught in American schools.

  39. But delicious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Animals are stunned before they're bled to death.

    In the end, as long as its tasty (and it is), then its all good.

  40. Tesla influence of Twain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wonder how much of this is from the oatmeal comic stating Edison eas a Douchebag.

    Also I remember reading that Mark Twain started writing what could be considered early science fiction from hanging with Tesla. A CT yankee in King Arthor's court comes to mind.

  41. Edison didn't even invent the Lightbulb!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Good old Wikipedia. :-)

    Shock Horror!!! An Englishman invented the lightbulb!.. Swan devised AND patented it before Edison too. Apparently Edison swiped the idea from a description in Scientific American.....

    Edison was just a big-mouthed charlatan. Perhaps you could say he ran the SCO of his day?

    1. Re:Edison didn't even invent the Lightbulb!!! by bandy · · Score: 1

      What SCO became wasn't what SCO once was.

      --
      "You might as well get your son a ticket to hell as give him a five string banjo." -unknown minister
  42. Edison and the most disgusting FUD campaign. by guidryp · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Edison will always get my disdain for running the most disgusting smear/FUD campaign that I am aware of.

    He repeatedly and publicly executed animals to "prove" the danger of AC current.

    He fried Cats/Dogs/horses/cows and even an Elephant, just to discredit a fellow inventor.

    1. Re:Edison and the most disgusting FUD campaign. by NeoNormal · · Score: 1

      Edison will always get my disdain for running the most disgusting smear/FUD campaign that I am aware of.

      This animal cruelty binge is really all one needs to know to judge the character of the man.

    2. Re:Edison and the most disgusting FUD campaign. by sjames · · Score: 2

      Lets not forget the electric chair, and naming the process of executing someone with it "Westinghousing".

    3. Re:Edison and the most disgusting FUD campaign. by crazyjj · · Score: 1

      He fried Cats/Dogs/horses/cows and even an Elephant

      Yeah, but only the asshole animals.

      --
      What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
  43. Forbes vs. The Oatmeal? by Alex+Belits · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why Forbes is attacking some webcomic's exaggerated and tongue in cheek interpretation of Tesla while trying to present it as some kind of established opinion?

    --
    Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    1. Re:Forbes vs. The Oatmeal? by ngc5194 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Article informative? Check. Article accurate? Check. Article overall worth reading? Check. Then who cares whether the author got the idea from a web comic, divine providence, or his pet hamster?

    2. Re:Forbes vs. The Oatmeal? by Alex+Belits · · Score: 0

      The fact that the article is attacking a strawman, misrepresenting the nature of the material that its author opposes?

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    3. Re:Forbes vs. The Oatmeal? by CannonballHead · · Score: 1

      I have seen a few people post the Oatmeal's comic as a representation of the truth finally being talked about.

    4. Re:Forbes vs. The Oatmeal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Article informative? Check. Article accurate? Check. Article overall worth reading? Check."

      Article complete? nope.

    5. Re:Forbes vs. The Oatmeal? by PuZZleDucK · · Score: 1

      The Oatmeals respone makes it all worthwhile: http://theoatmeal.com/blog/tesla_response

      --
      Can a person program a new solution to a problem? Why should anyone be able to stop such a thing? -Richard Stallman
  44. like I'm going to heed Forbes on tech issues... by Thud457 · · Score: 1

    also, Tesla didn't electrocute an elephant to scare little old grannies about the dangers of D.C. And any neigborhood dogs and cats he could get his slimy paws on. So yes, Edison was douchebag. A product of his time, but a world-class electrified douchebag nonetheless.

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

  45. Hmm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I see Alex Knapp reads the Oatmeal... eh?

  46. That is not 100% correct by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The inverse square law is only useful in case where essentially you have an EM wave being trnasmitted spherically, or semi spherically. As the wave advance, the surface of the transmission grow in square of the distance.

    Essentially what would have made Tesla stuff work, would have been Laser or Maser. Those do not lose power on the square of the distance, because of the focussing of the energy and quasi "parallel" ray. In fact Laser are focussed enough that we can use them to send photon at enormous distance on the moon (a bit more than 1 Light second away) bounce on a mirror, and still get enough photon back to mesure them. Good luck trying that with something else than a Laser.

    1. Re:That is not 100% correct by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even laser beams are subject to the inverse square law. Like any other EM radiation, once you get past the near field and into the far field, you get inverse square law, although can deviate from that in the near field area. For something like a laser beam that is in a nice Gaussian beam, you can have a narrow waist and for a distance roughly corresponding to the "Rayleigh range" you don't get much expansion. But beyond that it approaches a conical expansion and has typical inverse square properties.

      Assuming you're doing laser range finding on the moon with the 3.5 m telescope at the Apache Point Observatory, so that you get a Gaussian output beam with a waist of 3.5 m (which is being generous, usually you don't want to cut it off exactly at that width), that would give you a Rayleigh range of about 50,000 km, or only about an eighth of the way to the moon. So by the time the signal gets to the moon and is reflected, it has been quite subject to the inverse square law.

      Also, amateur radio operators are capable of bouncing radio signals off the moon, and that is not using lasers (or masers).

  47. Edison to Deforest ... ALMOST! by scharkalvin · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Actually most of Edison's ideas WERE his own. He didn't do much of the actual work of constructing prototypes or models, his hired "technicians" did this work. Edison did supervise the most interesting projects but his employees were simply given some guidelines and did the work themselves in most cases. Comparing him with Bill Gates would be correct, Mr. Gates was very involved with most of Microsoft's technical direction and he contributed to much of the technology they developed, at least in the early days.

    On very interesting fact is that Edison almost invented electronics. He was working on improving the telephone (he did invent the carbon button microphone) at the same time that he was working on improvements to the electric lamp. One problem that plagued the early production carbon filament lamps was a gradual darkening of the inside of the bulb (due to evaportation of the carbon filament). Edison noted that one side of the bulb (the side connected to the positive end of the filament) darkened more than the negative side AND that a shadow appeared behind the positive end where no carbon was deposited. This was partly do to the bulb not having a perfect vacuum. Edison added a free wire into the bulb to which he connected a sensitive ammeter. When the meter was connected between this free wire and the positive end of the filament a current flowed. When it was connected to the negative end of the filament there was no current. This was the "Edison Effect", or thermionic emission, the principle upon which the vacuum tube depends on. If Edison was aware of atomic theories of electricity (IE: that electricity is the flow of negative atomic particles) is unknown. If he had been just a bit more curious he might have inserted a THIRD element into the bulb between the filament and his first electrode and experimented with the effects of both positive and negative charges on it. If he had he would have been able to notice that there was a ratio between the current change on the outer element and the voltage change on the inner, IE: amplification that could have been used as a repeater element for telephone circuits. Edison was just a small step away from inventing the Triode Vacuum tube about 30 years early! He was working on two projects that could have been connected to do this. However it didn't happen. I wonder how the world might have changed if Edison had made this leap of discovery.

  48. filament.. by tekrat · · Score: 1

    And his filament didn't even work all that well. It was the work of another inventor, a practically unknown black man named Louis Latimer, I believe, who finally invented a better filament for the light bulb.

    And Edison takes all the credit. As usual.

    --
    If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
    1. Re:filament.. by Khyber · · Score: 1

      Latimer improved the process for manufacture of the Carbon filament. Tungsten filaments, much later, came via Just and Hanaman.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
  49. Re:Edison to Deforest ... ALMOST! by paiute · · Score: 2

    Mr. Gates was very involved with most of Microsoft's technical direction and he contributed to much of the technology they developed, at least in the early days.

    Yeah, like when he stayed up all night writing QDOS and then MSDOS, the foundation of the Microsoft empire.

    --
    If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
  50. Bitch please! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bitch please.
    Q > Picard > Data/Spock > Kirk > Worf > Janeway > Neelix > Crusher > Anonymous Redshirt

    Now where did I put the key to my nuclear bunker...?

  51. Ripley had it right by RogueWarrior65 · · Score: 1

    "I don't know which species is worse. You don't see them f*cking each other over for a goddamn percentage."
    Edison's organization had a habit of stealing/copying other people's intellectual property rather than sticking to original work.

  52. Re:Edison to Deforest ... ALMOST! by stevew · · Score: 5, Informative

    This is ignorant. Yes he bought QDOS, and yes he had people working for him to modify it. This doesn't take away the fact that he was heavily involved in building the BASIC that was loaded into PROM on my PC-1! For the first several years of the company Bill coded. He also was very astute at guiding the financial and business aspects of his company, and being at the right place at the right time multiple times. Don't forget that he pointed IBM at Digital Research FIRST, before he went and purchased QDOS. At the time - Microsoft was a language company. They specialized in creating language compilers. That is how IBM had Pascal, etc. available for the PC the first day it was introduced!
    GAWD - you're making me defend Bill Gates - STOP THAT! (Now I've got to go and compile a linux kernel or something to make up for this!)

    --
    Have you compiled your kernel today??
  53. Tesla would have been a Slashdotter! by wdhowellsr · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I have to start by saying that I am extremely biased. Even though it is only a few hours away, my wife won't let me visit the Edison museum in Fort Myers for fear I would burn it down.

    However Edison was a truly dispicable man. You can say what you want about Gates, Jobs, Elison, Zuckerburg and others but they are businessmen and often nasty businessmen.

    Edison spent years trying to discredit A/C including killing animals as large as an elephant.*

    One of his inventions was the electric chair which by it's very design is a device to kill.**

    The nascent movie business actually pulled up stakes and moved 3000 miles to a little CA town called Hollywood because Edison's thugs would destroy any film or equipment being used for movie making unless he got a cut.***

    I could go on but I think I'm getting a tad emotionally attached to this post. I think all of us are. Have you ever seen so many four and fives?

    * Jan. 4, 1903: Edison Fries an Elephant to Prove His Point.
    ** Edison's Menlo Park Lab Invents the Electric Chair.
    *** Edison's hires goons to shut down movie filming.

    1. Re:Tesla would have been a Slashdotter! by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1, Troll

      That's still better than Gates.

      Microsoft manages to infect all forms of human intellectual activity with its "computer is a fussy little creature that shows pretty little windows" mentality. It preventied all kinds of progress that would require people who do not specialize in writing glossy-looking GUI programs to operate on any kind of data in any meaningful manner. Only decades, maybe centuries later, mankind has a chance to change its relationship with computers.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    2. Re:Tesla would have been a Slashdotter! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait a minute, he sent people to beat up the Motion Picture Association of America for stealing his intellectual property... and you hate him for that? We're through the looking glass here!

    3. Re:Tesla would have been a Slashdotter! by sjames · · Score: 1

      And now, just a century later it's Hollywood sending out goons to destroy anything that doesn't give them a cut. They didn't have the decency to hire the goons though, they bribe congressmen to send taxpayer funded goons.

    4. Re:Tesla would have been a Slashdotter! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The nascent movie business actually pulled up stakes and moved 3000 miles to a little CA town called Hollywood because Edison's thugs would destroy any film or equipment being used for movie making unless he got a cut.***
       

      An interesting bit of trivia, some of the old silent films have chase scenes that were actual chase scenes. Edison had hired Pinkertons (Violent thugs for hire, basically. Their big racket was union-busting) who would track down these people and destroy their film equipment, and the movie guys would stop filming to jump on a truck and flee. Some of them decide to take these lemons and make lemonade, so they would point the camera out the back of the truck and film the Pinkertons chasing them, so they could stick it in a film later.

    5. Re:Tesla would have been a Slashdotter! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gates has done far more philanthropic good than you can ever do in your lifetime, or even 100 lifetimes. So, just shut the fuck up and say thanks that demand for Microsoft software & intel hardware created an huge market for x86 commodity hardware. Without this, no Linux, no FSF, no OSS , no GPL and all the other things that zealots here like. Without MS you would be paying $10,000 for a personal computer and have to write software that shipped on 30 different hardware architectures.

    6. Re:Tesla would have been a Slashdotter! by Alex+Belits · · Score: 0

      Gates has done far more philanthropic good than you can ever do in your lifetime, or even 100 lifetimes.

      First and foremost, rich people's "philantropy" is an admission of guilt. Everyone else SIMPLY DID NOT TAKE BILLIONS FROM OTHERS, so we have no obligation to throw money back at people.

      Second, more likely than not his "philantropy" misdirects research and fucks up economies of the whole countries. Everything Gates ever did in his life is to control people and make them suffer. Deep inside he knows that he is the dumbest person among his "friends", and his intellect is at the level of writing BASIC interpreter, a 70's equivalent of an address book application in PHP. He can't stand his own intellectual inferiority, and the only thing he does is forcing his dumb ideas on smart people, bringing them down to his level. There are plenty of people like him, but he is the only of them who was lucky enough to amass such a power.

      So, just shut the fuck up and say thanks that demand for Microsoft software & intel hardware created an huge market for x86 commodity hardware. Without this, no Linux, no FSF, no OSS , no GPL and all the other things that zealots here like.

      Microsoft did nothing that someone else -- anyone else -- wouldn't do far better. It deserves as much praise for modern technology as Inquisition deserves praise for its role in the development of space travel.

      Without MS you would be paying $10,000 for a personal computer and

      Being able to buy a PC that is actually worth $10000 would be a much better situation than dealing with $1000 computer that is the worst and at the same time the best general-purpose computer available. Modern PCs lack modularity, extensibility and flexibility of interfaces, what also impedes development of hardware, however Intel, not Microsoft is primarily responsible for that problem. Microsoft is responsible for placing Intel and its retarded x86 architecture into its current position though, and if you are too dumb to understand it, it's not a good thing.

      have to write software that shipped on 30 different hardware architectures.

      I work with multiple architectures just fine, thanks to gcc being implemented on all of them. Microsoft is the only company that can't deal with hardware diversity, but that's because they are stupid, and all their ideas are stupid.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    7. Re:Tesla would have been a Slashdotter! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He can't stand his own intellectual inferiority, and the only thing he does is forcing his dumb ideas on smart people, bringing them down to his level. There are plenty of people like him, but he is the only of them who was lucky enough to amass such a power.

      You have a point, I suppose. You do not possess enough power to do like him.

    8. Re:Tesla would have been a Slashdotter! by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      I have a point, but you were too busy adoring your glorious masters to get it.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    9. Re:Tesla would have been a Slashdotter! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What masters? Is that a thing that dumb people like you have? Must suck..

    10. Re:Tesla would have been a Slashdotter! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First and foremost, rich people's "philantropy" is an admission of guilt.

      What complete and utter bullshit. Its their way of goving back to society. They had it good - some luck, some hardwork - and now they want to help those who don't get to play on a level playing field. Why else would you want to cure disease in Africa? There is no money in those cures. Its obvious Gates genuinely cares. Most people like you would not put a step in a third world hellhole and work on the operations level if they can sit in their comfortable offices and just write a cheque.

      Everyone else SIMPLY DID NOT TAKE BILLIONS FROM OTHERS, so we have no obligation to throw money back at people.

      Nobody is obligated to do anything. Steve Jobs did nothing (atleast publicly). Nobody cares that he did nothing.

      Microsoft did nothing that someone else -- anyone else -- wouldn't do far better

      It would just be another Microsoft like company. Only a greedy monopolistic business could achieve the same results as Microsoft.

      I work with multiple architectures just fine, thanks to gcc being implemented on all of them

      And it works equally bad on all of them. GCC is the shittiest compiler for C and C++ (especially) on the planet. Also, you are probably stupid if you think portability has anything to do with a compiler. Anyone selling a computing product with any software already has a way to ship code on the platform.

      The problem is a unified API. Either you can use something shit like Java, .NET or other horrible things, or you can use something designed and written for that specific platform. Also writing on unified API means writing to a common subset of functions for all platforms - a shitty way to write code.

      Also if you are writing performance oriented software, there is ****NEVER**** going to be any API that will be successful across multiple h/w architectures. Good luck trying to maintain and ship 30 different kinds performance critical modules. Its amazing how you can spew so much bullshit without realizing that you were standing knee deep in shit all this time.

    11. Re:Tesla would have been a Slashdotter! by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      What complete and utter bullshit. Its their way of goving back to society.

      The key word is "back". Don't steal, and there is no need to give a fraction of it "back".

      It would just be another Microsoft like company. Only a greedy monopolistic business could achieve the same results as Microsoft.

      You mean, only a greedy monopolistic business can shit up all software and computer industry for the foreseeable future, right?

      And it works equally bad on all of them. GCC is the shittiest compiler for C and C++ (especially) on the planet.

      That's a very bold claim considering that absolutely everyone who does any software development for any platform other than Windows, uses gcc unless specifically locked out of it.

      Also, you are probably stupid if you think portability has anything to do with a compiler.

      Yes, what would I know after spending decades studying Computer Science and developing all kinds of software except office suites and games.

      Anyone selling a computing product with any software already has a way to ship code on the platform.

      This is not even wrong, it's a statement with no relationship with reality.

      The problem is a unified API. Either you can use something shit like Java, .NET or other horrible things, or you can use something designed and written for that specific platform. Also writing on unified API means writing to a common subset of functions for all platforms - a shitty way to write code.

      "API" is worthless. Any moron can write a piece of software, declare some dumb API to it and then proudly sit on it and insist that everyone else, forever, used his API to access his magical product. Vendor-locked APIs are a bane of a progress in software development.

      Properly developed software is modular, with interfaces between those modules clearly specified in terms of data structures, function calls, objects and protocols (network, IPC, bus or other forms of it). Pieces of it may look like "API", and certainly morons such as yourself would treat it as "API" that their lowly bug-ridden program uses to access "a library". In reality, modular development with clearly specified interfaces allows independent development and replacement of all parts of such system without affecting the functionality, something that no company can accomplish by itself. However this also means that no one can exercise full control over work of others -- and this is the likes of Microsoft and Oracle fear more than anyone fears anything else.

      Also if you are writing performance oriented software, there is ****NEVER**** going to be any API that will be successful across multiple h/w architectures. Good luck trying to maintain and ship 30 different kinds performance critical modules. Its amazing how you can spew so much bullshit without realizing that you were standing knee deep in shit all this time.

      You really are that clueless. Not only I know what I am talking about, this happens to be my job as an embedded system and DSP developer. My software runs on all architectures Microsoft ever supported, on more architectures that Microsoft can't dream of supporting, and on FPGAs where most of it doesn't even qualify as strictly "software". I have software running as hard realtime, soft realtime, not realtime at all and, of course, RTL that is pretty much as hard realtime as anyone can imagine.

      The problems I have to solve while developing it have absolutely nothing to do with "difficulties" dealing hardware diversity and everything with using hardware where it is appropriate to achieve the design goals of the whole system. Microsoft, in its boundless stupidity, turned its limitation as one-trick pony into a doctrine, no, paradigm that it imposed onto everyone who fallen under its power. I am smart enough to keep myself away from this abyss of stupidity. You are on the bottom of it, barking at me.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    12. Re:Tesla would have been a Slashdotter! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're assuming every rich person is a thief, which is completely stupid. When someone includes stupid and unfounded like this in their argument, how can you even take what they say seriously?

      That's a very bold claim considering that absolutely everyone who does any software development for any platform other than Windows, uses gcc unless specifically locked out of it.

      Yes, because that's the only compiler that matters for non-Windows platforms. People will run to clang/llvm when it gets better.

      Yes, what would I know after spending decades studying Computer Science and developing all kinds of software except office suites and games.

      What he means to say is that portability has a lot more to do with the code than what you compile it with. Not sure if it's related to anything you're saying, but it's hard to miss his point unless you're a moron.

      Properly developed software is modular, with interfaces between those modules clearly specified in terms of data structures, function calls, objects and protocols (network, IPC, bus or other forms of it). Pieces of it may look like "API", and certainly morons such as yourself would treat it as "API" that their lowly bug-ridden program uses to access "a library".

      That's because that IS an API you fucking moron. Just because you refuse to give it a name doesn't mean it stops being what it is.

      Microsoft is the only company that can't deal with hardware diversity, but that's because they are stupid, and all their ideas are stupid.

      Microsoft, in its boundless stupidity, turned its limitation as one-trick pony into a doctrine, no, paradigm that it imposed onto everyone who fallen under its power. I am smart enough to keep myself away from this abyss of stupidity. You are on the bottom of it, barking at me.

      Maybe get that superiority complex checked out by a doctor you dumb monkey. You're clearly less intelligent than the person you're replying to.

    13. Re:Tesla would have been a Slashdotter! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's a very bold claim considering that absolutely everyone who does any software development for any platform other than Windows, uses gcc unless specifically locked out of it.

      Thats because its true. Intels compiler is superior than gcc in every single respect. GCC is not only horrible in its output, but its horrible in its design. Stallman fucked it up. Like emacs its some shit monolithic giant fuckup of a codebase. I'm surprised nobody banned that idiot from fucking up more OSS projects. Clang is a great step in trying to undo that damage

      This is not even wrong, it's a statement with no relationship with reality.

      Are you four years old? Anyone shipping software on any platform already has a way to compile code on it, otherwise they would not be able to ship it.

      "API" is worthless. Any moron can write a piece of software, declare some dumb API to it and then proudly sit on it and insist that everyone else, forever, used his API to access his magical product. Vendor-locked APIs are a bane of a progress in software development.

      Huh what? Do you even know what an API is? Its exactly the core of modular software development. Its an abstraction of the implementation via an interface. Go read some basic software design books.

      In reality, modular development with clearly specified interfaces allows independent development and replacement of all parts of such system without affecting the functionality, something that no company can accomplish by itself. However this also means that no one can exercise full control over work of others -- and this is the likes of Microsoft and Oracle fear more than anyone fears anything else.

      If you write modular software you can abstract away the OS too. Microsoft or any other vendor simply provides a way to do that in another form. Nobody is forced to use their programming model. Anyone can write GUI, Networking and other libraries. Those libraries themselves (if they are multiplatform) again will have to abstract the OS away with interfaces.

      Don't fool yourself into thinking you're giving some great wisdom. You have only spewed pedestrian basic knowledge of writing well designed software. Anyone can say this shit.

      My software runs on all architectures Microsoft ever supported, on more architectures that Microsoft can't dream of supporting,

      Windows isn't some pet research project. Its only purpose is to lock people in to make more money for MS. Why in the world would Microsoft ship their code on platforms that make them no money. Are you some kind of idiot? Don't worry, that was rhetorical.

      I have software running as hard realtime, soft realtime, not realtime at all and, of course, RTL that is pretty much as hard realtime as anyone can imagine.

      So? There are thousands of embedded products that contain the exact shitty code that you write. Nice attempt at trying to boast when what you're doing is pedestrian and not even that complicated. Any CS college graduate can replace you in under a year.

      The problems I have to solve while developing it have absolutely nothing to do with "difficulties" dealing hardware diversity and everything with using hardware where it is appropriate to achieve the design goals of the whole system.

      Unless your solutions lead to an academic computer science paper publication, what you're doing is trivial. You are just re-implementing solutions that are already existing thanks to people 10 times smarter than you.

  54. Tesla family lore by GMCaesar · · Score: 1

    I had occasion to speak a number of times with a nephew of Tesla's. He claimed that the family always privately believed that Edison had torched his uncle's New York lab.

    1. Re:Tesla family lore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My extended family watches midget wrestling and thinks the Nazis had the right idea.

      Families are one of the worst places to find unbiased reporting regarding other family members.

  55. Edison's sanity > Tesla's by Quila · · Score: 1

    They both contributed in their way. Edison was moderately intelligent, methodical, driven, and most importantly -- completely sane. This brute-force approach produced usable, marketable results, although no advancements in scientific theory. However, he was the perfect person to stand on the shoulders of giants to bring technology to the masses.

    Tesla was the epitome of the insane genius, prone to bouts of unworkable fancy that had a grain of great insight that would later be worked out by others. Wanting to use radio waves to detect subs was a good example, envisioning RADAR before anybody else, yet not quite understanding how it could be practically applied.

  56. No, defense by Quila · · Score: 2

    The US has troops in dozens of countries around the world in various capacities outside of current war. We have the leftover cold war troops in Europe, the troops holding the line against North Korea's insane leaders, and smaller advisory or advance contingents on the rest of the continents except Antarctica. It is understood that we are the real defense for many other countries should the SHTF, so those countries don't have to spend so much on their own defense.

    Some countries do complain about the actions of some individuals stationed there, and it's understandable, and they will grumble about kicking the US out. However, they are usually reticent to take the financial hit that a US withdrawal will cause. I've seen a community in Germany decimated after a base closure, since the base was a good chunk of the local economy (direct gov-gov payments, soldier spending, and hiring of many local nationals on the base). Usually when they really want us gone, it's because our bases are sitting on some valuable real estate.

    1. Re:No, defense by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2

      And this is precisely why we need to eliminate some of those 700+ (!!!) military bases around the world. We have enough problems of our own; we don't need to be subsidizing every other country in existence.

    2. Re:No, defense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More so the rest of the world would be quite happy to see "Yankee Go Home".

    3. Re:No, defense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fact that the US has some valuable military interventions doesn't change that most interventions are a waste of time, lifes and effort. If the US didn't do the worthless interventions such as the Iraq war, didn't have all the stations around the world that provide value to no one and didn't spend on researching weapons for which there would be no use save for those made-up wars, the US military investment would be in line with that of the rest of the world.
      I find it really odd that some US citizens thing that the US militaty might is a benefit to the rest. That's like the bully at school thinking that his bulling is a contribution to the character development of his school mates.

    4. Re:No, defense by Quila · · Score: 1

      I find it really odd that some US citizens thing that the US militaty might is a benefit to the rest. That's like the bully at school thinking that his bulling is a contribution to the character development of his school mates.

      More like the nice jock who protects less fortunate kids. We are in Saudi Arabia now because a bully decided he wanted to take some stuff. We are in Korea because an insane bully could have decided to beat them up at any moment over the last 50 years. We were in Europe initially because we beat a bully, then because another bully threatened to beat everyone else up. We did have a history of meddling in Latin America, basically supporting any bully who was an enemy of our main bully nemesis.

  57. Alex should take a nap. . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I hate these revisionist history assholes who like to downplay / obfuscate the truth. Edison wasn't the devil. He never used any unfair or underhanded tactics to make a name or a buck for himself, oh no . . . just like the Holocaust never happened, or the Inquisition. To downplay the truth of these events, is like saying the Crusades was a missionary excursion, or that G. W. Bush was an inspirational, intelligent and dynamic world leader.
    See how ridiculous it sounds when you say it out loud?
    Take a nap, Alex. Go back to your little dream world where you can change history and fact to suit your liking. We don't need you or your linguistic sludge obscuring our history, okay? Thanks.

  58. Patent Orc by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 4, Informative

    he was NOT a patent troll, since he BUILT the stuff he patented.

    True but he was a different kind of patent "troll". For example with the light bulb once Swan had patented his design in the UK Edison submitted a almost direct copy for patenting in the US and then tried to sue Swan for patent infringement in the UK! The two eventually settled out of court with Swan running the UK side of things and Edison in the US. So by today's standards he was not a troll but he was certainly some sort of unpleasant creature living under the patent bridge - a patent orc perhaps since he liked to raid others patents and got away with it due to his wealth?

  59. Re:Edison to Deforest ... ALMOST! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Actually most of Edison's ideas WERE his own. He didn't do much of the actual work of constructing prototypes or models, his hired "technicians" did this work"

    Invention is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration

    Thomas Edison

  60. Imaginary Falsehood by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Complex-valued numbers do not have an ordering. So, it makes no sense to say any electrical genius is greater than another.

  61. Re:Edison to Deforest ... ALMOST! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That is interesting, though if he had invented valves, people would just be saying that he stole the idea from somebody else, most likely Tesla.

    Edison, like Gates, is just one of those people who can't do anything right. Even a major contribution to humanity is not enough; every product is stolen, every success is the result of some sort of cheating. Seems awfully like jealousy to me...

  62. Re:Edison to Deforest ... ALMOST! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Mr. Gates was very involved with most of Microsoft's technical direction and he contributed to much of the technology they developed, at least in the early days.

    Yeah, like when he stayed up all night writing QDOS and then MSDOS, the foundation of the Microsoft empire.

    Neither QDOS nor MSDOS, nor Windows, nor BASIC, was the foundation of he Microsoft empire.

    The foundation of the Microsoft empire was the PC-DOS licensing agreement with IBM with the magic words "non-exclusive.

      By signing that, IBM gave away the farm.

  63. NYC just switched to AC from DC. by guantamanera · · Score: 1
  64. Context, plz? by Gimbal · · Score: 1

    I like the humanist side of the argument, but I find that I'm compelled to ask: Who thought Tesla was a "god-hero" or Edison "the devil," to begin with?

  65. Tesla MUST be superior to Edison by fnj · · Score: 1

    Tesla has a unit named after him (one tesla = one weber per square meter). Edison does not.

    1. Re:Tesla MUST be superior to Edison by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      1 edison = 100 amperes

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  66. We've already drawn down a lot by Quila · · Score: 1

    And the pace continues. We're moving in the right direction, both in the US and overseas. I know we closed well over 100 Army installations (ranging from few-acre sites to large bases) in Germany since the end of the Cold War, and a good chunk of the remaining ones are scheduled to close in the next few years. The Air Force went from a huge number of bases to just a few. Ramstein is the only big US one left, we have a tanker squadron at the NATO-controlled Geilenkirchen, and Spangdahlem keeps getting smaller as they transfer planes out.

    It's actually harder to do this in the US since we have congresscritters protecting their local jobs.

    I just hope we do it smartly and don't overdo it like we did after WWII, screwing us for Korea.

  67. You mean Tesla wasn't... by dgatwood · · Score: 1

    ...a vampire? :-D

    --

    Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  68. What a suprise! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This article is telling me that Nikola Tesla was *not* a God, and Thomas Edison was *not* a demon?

    You mean to tell me that human beings are only people and nothing more?

    And that misconceptions are common, even on the internet?

    Jesus Christ. Mind blown.

  69. So now the conservatives are fighting THIS fight? by WOOFYGOOFY · · Score: 1

    OK let em get this straight. Conservatives (Forbes Magazine- very) are now worried about the deleterious effect on the free market if people know that Tesla was an radically under-appreciated genius who was repeatedly screwed over by the money-grubbing, politicking fame -hound Edison whose efforts to discredit, defame and disenfranchise Tesla set back progress by a good half century?

    http://www.electroherbalism.com/bioelectronics/tesla/teslaversusedison.htm

    The image of Edison as the icon and living embodiment of genius-through-sweat and progress via patented, monetized innovation, must at all cost be protected now? So the culture wars now extend to every nook and cranny at all times in history present, future and past ?

    Let it go. Edison was what he was and yes, he was "banging" Tesla more frequently and harder than a screen door in a tornado. That's the tail of the historical tape. It doesn't mean anything beyond what it was.

  70. Re:Edison to Deforest ... ALMOST! by lurking_giant · · Score: 5, Insightful

    “If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found the object of his search. I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor.” Nikola Tesla

  71. Where is my flying car? by mangu · · Score: 2

    I read TFA and it's absolutely correct. Tesla's contribution to the development of science and technology has been FAR overrated lately.

    Edison's contribution, OTOH, was significant. He didn't "invent" that many things, he made them practical.

    We had flying cars forty years ago. So why can't you buy one? Because they are not practical.

    Everything that Tesla invented was like the Mizar Flying Pinto. Kind of interesting to look at, wonderful if it were true, but totally outside of practical reality.

  72. Re:Go have a look at the Oatmeal's latest by coolmadsi · · Score: 1

    And now a response addressing the article (again, from the oatmeal): http://theoatmeal.com/blog/tesla_response

  73. AC vs DC = Engineering problem by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

    This jyberish about which is better is irrelevent. Forbes article simply substitutes one misunderstanding for another.

    AC comes out of spinning generators that produce electricity. Large scale production could not be rectified into DC back then. Even today it still is not all that practical but continues to improve. It is not about "transmission". DC has advantage over AC in transmission due to skin effect and lack of need for phase synchronization.

    The real argument was NOT really about AC vs DC.. It was about local vs large scale means of production. A generator on every corner vs much fewer large scale generators. Fewer larger generators required higher voltages or unreasonable amounts of copper and could not be rectified. Smaller more numerous generators could make due with lower voltages that could be rectified.

  74. Great inventors are our biggest problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Edison and Tesla made magnificent inventions, but they messed with the natural interation between nature and man. Nature became less deadly, man became genocidal and ultimately geocidal. The best advise for great inventors is to say : "Forget it, humans can't handle your idea" and both Edison and Tesla's memory and inventions should be destroyed to bring us back on course for coexistence on earth, if we can somehow survive the ravages of their technology...

  75. Re:Edison to Deforest ... ALMOST! by grep_rocks · · Score: 1

    Wow, great quote - I would mod you up if I could - Edison's disciples still work the same way today, and just as unproductively

  76. Re:Edison to Deforest ... ALMOST! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    GAWD - you're making me defend Bill Gates - STOP THAT! (Now I've got to go and compile a linux kernel or something to make up for this!)

    Your lucky day!

  77. Re:Edison to Deforest ... ALMOST! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    He was working on improving the telephone (he did invent the carbon button microphone) at the same time that he was working on improvements to the electric lamp.

    The carbon button microphone made the telephone a practical tool for communications for longer than very short distances. Without it, the telephone probably would have been used for nothing more than an intercom or interior communications system. Edison's carbon button microphone was one of those critically essential details of the telephone (wherein the Devil is found when you don't get it just right).

  78. Oatmeal repsonds by SpryGuy · · Score: 5, Informative

    Here's a great response to the forbes article, from the author of the article that the Forbes article is critiquing:

    http://theoatmeal.com/blog/tesla_response

    --

    - Spryguy
    There are three kinds of people in this world: those that can count and those that can't
  79. ya Thomas Edison wasn't all bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    He didn't hate jews .... oh, wait.

    So can I hate the illiterate fuck now? K-thx.

  80. The Oatmeal's response by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Please see here: http://theoatmeal.com/blog/tesla_response

  81. Re:Edison to Deforest ... ALMOST! by paiute · · Score: 1

    And L. Ron Hubbard was a hell of a war hero.

    --
    If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
  82. Tesla cheerleaders are usually frothing loons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As TheOatmeal's response proves most handily.

  83. Excluded middle fallacy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The groundless assumption that since the truth is not precisely in the middle, one of the extremes must be true.

  84. Re:Edison to Deforest ... ALMOST! by randalny · · Score: 1

    “If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found the object of his search. I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor.”
    Nikola Tesla

    Having read extensively about both Edison and Tesla, my personal theory is that one of the reasons Edison championed DC power over AC is that he didn't UNDERSTAND AC, especially the concept of muti-phasic AC, which is what makes the AC system really work. He was very much a DC sort of guy, who had essentially no theory behind his inventions beyond what he saw worked. That is why he had the quote about genius being 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration. One other problem he had was that even though Maxwell had published his definitive theory of electromagnetism before Edison even really started his career, Maxwell's prose was incredibly impenetrable -- especially for someone with as little formal education as Edison. Additionally, most of the real further work on the theory of electromagnetism was done in Germany (the scientific and technical hub of the world till the 1930's) and published in German, which Edison of course did not read. Tesla, on the other hand, studied electrical theory in Austria, spoke and read German, and had a mental gift for taking a bit of theory and constructing entirely complete inventions in his head. He considered the actual construction of the devices as little more than an afterthought.

  85. Tesla as scientist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Since 1960, the international scientific unit for magnetic induction has been the Tesla (abbreviation simply "T"). It's a widely used unit, not quite as ubiquitous as the Newton and the Joule, but solidly in the second tier. The other widely-used unit, the Gauss, is defined as one ten-thousandth of a Tesla. A one-T magnet is really strong; get into the ten-T range, and you can start levitating frogs. (It's the field gradient that lifts the frog, but to get a big gradient over a large enough volume you need a strong field somewhere.)

    To be honest I've never quite believed that Tesla deserved to be ranked up there with Faraday, and I suspect the Tesla may have been named as a political gesture, so as not to name all the major units after English, French, and German guys. But it's certainly not a completely crazy honor.

    Edison, on the other hand, doesn't get much mention in physics texts. Whatever current public opinion may be, pure science gives Tesla more respect.