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Remembering America's Fresh Water Submarines
Hugh Pickens writes "As we move into Memorial Day and Americans remember the men and women who died while serving in the United States Armed Forces, I wanted to share the story of my Uncle Donald Cress born in 1922 in Bath Township, Minnesota who served as a Radioman, Third Class on the USS Robalo, one of the US Navy's 'Fresh Water Submarines' because they were commissioned in the Great Lakes. On the western shore of Lake Michigan, about 80 miles north of Milwaukee, lies Manitowoc, Wisconsin, a city whose shipyards had built car ferries and ore boats since 1902. In 1939 war broke out in Europe and President Roosevelt declared a limited National Emergency and U.S. Navy shipbuilders were concerned that submarine building capacity was not sufficient to support a long war. The US Navy asked the Manitowoc Shipbuilding Company to build submarines, a task far beyond their existing capabilities, but assured them that the Electric Boat Company, with the only shipyard in the country capable of building submarines, would provide plans and whatever assistance they would need. Manitowoc's shipyard grew from 500 employees to 7,000 employees at its peak working three shifts around the clock 365 days a year and by the end of the war had built 25 submarines in time to see action that together sank 132 Japanese ships. 'It appears from the results obtained at Manitowoc that given a set of good plans, competent engineers and skilled workman can follow them and build what is called for even though it might be very much more sophisticated than anything they have built before,' writes Rear Admiral William T. Nelson. But there was one more thing the shipyard had going for it. After Pearl Harbor the entire community was now engaged in vital and important war work, sacrifice was the order of the day, and each boat was their boat. 'With the entire community following the construction with such interest and spirit, success was inevitable.'"
Only useful if we are ever attacked by canada.
Hahaha. You mean "as we remember and celebrate barbecuing and long weekends off from work".
Besides, the holiday has become nothing more than a day to fill young minds with propaganda about how EVERYONE is a hero no matter what, just for BEING IN the military. That way, we collectively put anyone joining the military on a pedestal. That way, we keep the machine fed so dumb young people are brainwashed by the rest of us into sacrificing themselves -- worthwhile for a good cause and not so much for trivial world-cop activities and guarding international corporate interests and oil-wells. We're all guilty of promoting the government propaganda that keeps allowing elderly fucktard politicians to throw young lives away. Memorial day my fucking ass.
"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small 'inside' group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes."
Besides, the holiday has become nothing more than a day to fill young minds with propaganda about how EVERYONE is a hero no matter what, just for BEING IN the military. That way, we collectively put anyone joining the military on a pedestal. That way, we keep the machine fed so dumb young people are brainwashed by the rest of us into sacrificing themselves
That's pretty cynical. I do have great admiration for anyone who joins the military, for the simple reason they are putting their lives on the line. Granted not everything they are asked to do is worthwhile, but you can't argue that a country could do without a military. Without that we'd be an Islamic state by now - the Muslims have no qualms about attacking the undefended or wasting lives.
unions, a national labor relations board, and the threat of strikes or federal lawsuits
Quite likely, you're utterly wrong.
What were those Japs thinking !! Messing with the wrong people, Hirohito !!
As far as I know Memorial day is only observed in the US of A.
Most of the rest of the allies commemorate the fallen of the wars on the 11th day of the 11th month (to mark the end of the first world war)
Except for those of us from down under who remember our fallen troops on ANZAC day (25th April) the anniversary of the Gallipoli landings
Besides, the holiday has become nothing more than a day to fill young minds with propaganda about how EVERYONE is a hero no matter what, just for BEING IN the military.
We drafted soldiers into WWI, WWII, the Korean War and Vietnam. Tens of thousands of them were killed, and many more were injured. I thank them and honor them for their service to our country. Subsequent military actions were staffed by men and women who volunteered to serve and protect our country. Thousands of them have been killed, and many more have been injured. I thank them and honor them for their service to our country.
I don't agree with all our government's policies regarding war, nation building, military spending, etc, but I can certainly distinguish between those in power that hatch these policies from those that fight, suffer and die because of them.
That's pretty cynical. I do have great admiration for anyone who joins the military, for the simple reason they are putting their lives on the line. Granted not everything they are asked to do is worthwhile, but you can't argue that a country could do without a military. Without that we'd be an Islamic state by now - the Muslims have no qualms about attacking the undefended or wasting lives.
Respect is something that is is earned by virtue, warmongering is not something virtuous, nor is supporting those who warmonger with your life. What you said about Islamic state is the biggest load of crap whatsoever, reflecting that you know very little about history or culture, a common "brown people are scary" knee jerk reaction.
Without that we'd be an Islamic state by now - the Muslims have no qualms about attacking the undefended or wasting lives.
Woop Woop Woop! Troll alert!
Pretty crap statistics, seeing as the top 20 Kreigsmarine captains alone sank in excess of 1,700 ships.
but you can't argue that a country could do without a military. Without that we'd be an Islamic state by now
How would that work? Say the USA decided that it couldn't afford a military anymore and basically just shut the whole thing down. In that hypothetical, what are the steps by which the USA would become an Islamic state?
Igor Presnyakov stole my hat
The US could have easily been the supplier to the world for small coastal patrol and research diesel-electric subs but the US government has blocked such efforts.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
This is Memorial Day (in the US), not Veterans Day. Memorial Day is for remembering service members killed in the line of duty.
Nothing like a good old fashioned war to get the old fashioned economy going and to built the us vs them mentality thats paramount to such endeavors.
It did cost approximatelly 1 to 3 Billion us$ to sink less than 150 boats or about 10 Million us$ per boat....
well somebody must have made it real good there...
So tell me what about the Korean war or Vietnam had anything to do with protecting our country?
They were about protecting our allies. I certainly don't think they were a great idea but I can separate those who fought and died from the politicians who sent them into battle.
Furthermore what about the countless other lives that we have ended, and the countless populations that we have stolen from, in order to live in the extravagance that we enjoy today?
Once again you're equating the policies and practices of the government with the sacrifices made by those who serve in the military. They are not one and the same.
Brainwashed!
Things are not as black & white as agreeing with you or being brainwashed. It's that type of attitude that leads to conflicts ... which lead to wars.
By fielding politicians who promises 40 virgins in the afterlife to whomever votes for the party line, and fear mongering about the gods destruction of our society if gays are allowed to marry, its only a slight variation on what our politicians currently vote for and people can still worship Jesus.
Read a little history and you'll see this type of behavior (e.g. "stealing from others") occurs with regularity. If you don't like it then please leave but I guarantee every country out there is looking for ways to better its power, influence, quality of life, income, etc. Don't be so naive.
Though the drug dealers and pirates are doing quite nicely with their own efforts, thank you. Cheap submarines are potentially as big a threat to world peace as nuclear weapons.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
Actually we can argue that a country can do without a military. Without even looking it up I know Costa Rica doesn't have one. Oh look: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_armed_forces That said I wouldn't say for a minute that the US can do without their military but it has grown so far out of proportion to it's needs that has simply become ridiculous with them constantly having to invent reasons for its existance.
"Without that we'd be an Islamic state by now - the Muslims have no qualms about attacking the undefended or wasting lives."
Are you serious? You were doing great until this sentence. Not only is it a ridiculous exaggeration (the fantasies of a few terrorist fanatics do not make a viable invasion force), but it's no better than any of the other the bigoted BS that generations of political leaders have used to start wars, whether we're talking ethnic, religious, racial, or some other silly excuse. After a couple of world wars, I thought we had moved on from that crap?
I too have a great deal of respect for people who join the military. I have very little respect for politicians or for the other people that use words of prejudice and misunderstanding to justify sending soldiers off to war. When there's a GOOD reason, when it is a necessity: yeah, send them. That's their job, and soldiers take their duty seriously. But as citizens in a democratic country, it is our duty to make decisions that are based on credible threats, not on paranoia and childish fears. It is our duty to make sure that the military is strategically focused where it matters, not squandering lives and money fruitlessly.
I don't know what propaganda you've been listening to -- the fantasies of fringe islamist fanatics or the ultra-right-wing anti-immigration wackos who generically think "Muslims are the enemy" -- but the fear you are describing is a recipe for politicians to manipulate people, not the justification for having a military or respecting the job they do.
I am all for protecting our allies, but Congress and the president has to have their children and grand children on the front line in the first wave of attacks.
No more of the rich assholes sending the poor to die for their desires. The rich fuckers need to put up their kids to die for any war first.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
But wouldn't building submarines in the great lakes be a violation of the Rush-Bagot treaty?
"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Dark Helmet (Spaceballs)
for the simple reason they are putting their lives on the line.
Just like miners, construction workers, fishermen, hangliding instructors, etc. Someone will inevitably argue "nobody is actively trying to kill those guys", but the source of the risk doesn't matter. Getting crushed by a pile of rock, or blown up by a IED, is death on the job either way.
Its naive to think that its advantageous to steal more of the pie for yourself, and meanwhile destroy some or most of they pie in the process. Had so much of the capital not been destroyed or spent on warfare, and we allowed a more homogeneous development in the world, we would be less likely to be facing the present Malthusian catastrophe.
"The perception that your needs are the most important, is an illusion caused by the existence of your ego." - Buddhist text I once read somewhere
You racist fucker!
I've been on a lot of tours of WWII vessels-- everything from the USS Arizona in Hawaii to the USS North Carolina in North Carolina to the submarine exhibit at the Deutsches Museum in Munich, Germany. I have to say the very best tour I've done was the USS Cobia sub tour in Manitowoc, WI. http://www.wisconsinmaritime.org/ The tour was given by an old WWII submariner (yes, he was old!). It was a far better experience than any other sub exhibit. The sub is in the water and it is quite the feeling to go beneath the water line of a WWII sub. If you are ever in the area, I highly recommend it! Granted that was 12 years ago and nowadays the old tour guides may have either passed or are too feeble...
So tell me what about the Korean war or Vietnam had anything to do with protecting our country?
They were about protecting our allies. I certainly don't think they were a great idea but I can separate those who fought and died from the politicians who sent them into battle.
It had nothing to do with protecting our allies, it had to do with protecting our business interest, which communism was an ideological threat to. The citizens of Vietnam and Korea wanted communism, and just like many other countries we took it away from them, so that we could continue to reap the rewards of our influence.
Furthermore what about the countless other lives that we have ended, and the countless populations that we have stolen from, in order to live in the extravagance that we enjoy today?
Once again you're equating the policies and practices of the government with the sacrifices made by those who serve in the military. They are not one and the same.
Brainwashed!
What I'm pointing out is the brainwashing that occurs through the policies and practices of the government, that cause people to sacrifice their lives in order to spread suffering around the world,
Things are not as black & white as agreeing with you or being brainwashed. It's that type of attitude that leads to conflicts ... which lead to wars.
In fact Immanuel Kant codified a logical deductive system for ethics, so things can in fact be black and white just as there is truth and not truth. Its moral relativism that allows people to perform the mental gymnastics, in order to satisfy their own cognitive needs to absolve themselves of guilt, and therefore justify committing horrible atrocities.
And the fact that you eat "beef" and "veal" instead of Cu and Cealf is an artifact of the French conquest of England. Not sure what any of this has got to do with the military threat any country or group of people poses to another in modern times, though. "Skirt" is an artifact of the Scandinavian people invading England -- better watch out for those Norwegians, I hear they're still on a spree of rape and pillaging through Central Europe!
Switch back to Slashdot's D1 system.
Over 4,600 American military people have died in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Over 130,000 civilians have been killed so far there, too.
When and where is their Memorial Day?
For starters they inspired M*A*S*H, which kept Alan Alda off the streets.
the Muslims have no qualms about attacking the undefended.
Yeah because the army was formed on Sept 12th, 2001. Oh wait, what? Your argument is full of shit.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
I'm pretty sure that your "100 year plan" is propaganda, as there would be no reason to use so much english in it.
Furthermore the Muslims in those times were far more advanced and humane than the Christians of the same period, that included they way they conducted themselves in warfare.
While Vietnam was a puppet regime pretty much controlled by the spooks in the case of Korea it was actually a UN intervention and while the USA pretty much took over (our allies were still hurting from WWII and the last of the rationing had only ended in the UK a few years before) I'm sure the people of South Korea would tell you they are quite grateful that the UN stepped in and helped them. when you look at what a horrible place NK is compared to SK I find it awfully hard to say the Korean war was unjustified.
Oh and FYI but the lifestyle we live today is thanks to cheap credit and China's desire to become the manufacturing capital of the world, sorry to burst your bubble. One could argue the ME was over oil but even if there was no oil I believe there would still be conflict as the USA is allied with Israel and the majority of Muslim countries in the area have made it clear they will settle for nothing less than driving the Jews into the sea. Since most of America believes Israel has a right to exist regardless of whether there is oil there or not there would be battles over this issue and again FYI but most of America's oil comes from South America not the ME so if the ME dried up tomorrow there would still be conflict over Israel.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
cynisism in this thread but its true. Memorial Day has been perverted by the government over time to enforce blind patriotic obedience. A sizeable number of service members have come home missing limbs, or rocked by bomb blasts to the full scale IQ of about 85. No one can remember what it was we fought for in iraq, and if they can they dont feel very accomplished or proud about it unless they were told to by a superior officer. We finally accomplished the goal of killing a "six foot tall diabetic" in afghanistan and whle that was supposed to usher in the end of the war on terror; it didnt. We have warrantless searches near borders, warrantless wiretaps, and we cant get on a plane or train without a physically degrading pat down or full-body x-ray that has begun to show potential as a cancer suspect agent. Our country beats a war drum every four years like clockwork, and every four years we're lulled into a state of cringing terror as the next theatre is prepared. we havent anything to commemorate today but the striking effectiveness by which private think tanks and policy centers incense us in favour of war.
On the other spectrum we have private corporations that are trying their goddamned best to make sure you forget the consequences of war like economic depression, poverty, mental illness, death, and the never ending destruction of the constitutional rights by which every american lives freely. So long as you buy your budweiser and 1200 pack of hamburgers from walmart, and dont forget to let the kids wash down their potato chips and hot dogs with a 2 liter of your favorite black bubbly sodapop, most multinational corporations will openly and warmly continue gifting you an alternate reality from that of americas recent wars from viet-nam onward. its one of flags and fireworks, proud bipedal service members and smiling families celebrating whatever the exact opposite of this holiday commemorates.
The only way to see exactly what this holiday is commemorating is to put down the remote, pull yourself off the couch and drive down to the VA hospital. I firmly believe if every american made the trip once, just once, then the next president to even mutter a sentiment about potentially starting war would find himself amidst impeachment.
Good people go to bed earlier.
Yes, both of you are correct, but I have baby girls. We see what horrors were committed when countries are conquered. Note that the 100 year plan is propaganda for both English speaking muslims and the people they plan to force conversion upon. Read up on the spread of Islam and what's happening now, in Europe, in Central Africa, in the archipelago. I do what I do so that we can keep this fight away from our home. It worked remarkably adequately for us in the cold war, and I hope will happen the same way in the next too.
And what if they don't have kids? Or don't care about their kids?
Here's my proposal: http://slashdot.org/~TheLink/journal/208853
In the old days kings used to lead their soldiers into battle. In modern times this is impractical and counterproductive.
But you can still have leaders lead the frontline in spirit.
Basically, if leaders are going to send troops on an _offensive_ war/battle (not defensive war) there must be a referendum on the war.
If there are not enough votes for the war, those leaders get put on deathrow.
At a convenient time later, a referendum is held to redeem each leader. Leaders that do not get enough votes get executed. For example if too many people stay at home and don't bother voting - the leaders get executed.
If it turns out later that the war was justified, a fancy ceremony is held, and the executed leaders are awarded a purple heart or equivalent, and you have people say nice things about them, cry and that sort of thing.
If it turns out later that the leaders tricked the voters, a referendum can be held (need to get enough signatories to start such a referendum, just to prevent nutters from wasting everyone elses time).
This proposal has many advantages:
1) Even leaders who don't really care about those "young soldiers on the battlefield" will not consider starting a war lightly.
2) The soldiers will know that the leaders want a war enough to risk their own lives for it.
3) The soldiers will know that X% of the population want the war.
4) Those being attacked will know that X% of the attackers believe in the war - so they want a war, they get a war - for sufficiently high X, collateral damage becomes insignificant. They might even be justified in using WMD and other otherwise dubious tactics. If > 90% of the country attacking you want to kill you and your families, what is so wrong about you using WMD as long as it does not affect neighbouring countries?
As a military veteran with friends and family who also served in the military (some who have been in combat), I'd like to offer you the most sincere heartfelt sentiment I can think of: Fuck You.
You don't even understand the thing that you're bashing. Memorial Day is about honoring those who died in battle, not everyone in the military. It doesn't much matter whether you agree with war, or the government, or the military, or whatever your favorite institutional boogeyman is, today is for those who volunteered to serve their country and paid the ultimate sacrifice. If anything, this should be the peacenik's favorite holiday because it highlights and emphasises the real cost of war.
And then there's the irony of posting as an Anonymous Coward...
Even a general can be wrong, and Butler proves this. One can be drawn into a war at the will of an enemy, and defending the innocent and weak is always appropriate even if it requires the death of men who will not respect the value of the people they share space with. Butler was proven wrong by the Nazi. Sometimes you have to do something, and sometimes that something is unpleasant.
This story hits close to home since I grew up 25 miles from Manitowoc and my dad grew up there. He's told me stories about how his parents would take him down to see the shipyard side launch the subs into the river. They also have a pretty nice maritime museum in Manitowoc (http://www.wisconsinmaritime.org/index.php).
Look how many on that list are only capable of being on that list because either the US, Canada, Australia, or New Zealand have defense agreements with them.
They can afford not to have militaries because other people are responsible for their defense.
I support our troops, though I don't support all of our government's policies or actions. Not everything is black and white no matter what you or Immanuel Kant says. Your right to define everything as good or bad, black or white, etc is as important as my right to disagree, though you would call be brainwashed for thinking there are shades of grey. From where I stand Immanuel Kant has done his share of brainwashing considering there are more facts and nuances to everything than he, you, or I will ever know or understand.
If you disagree so strongly with the practices and policies of the US then why don't you run for office, get elected and change them?
Are you kidding? From Wikipedia:
All the major unions grew stronger during the war. The government put pressure on employers to recognize unions to avoid the sort of turbulent struggles over union recognition of the 1930s, while unions were generally able to obtain maintenance of membership clauses, a form of union security, through arbitration and negotiation. Employers gave workers new untaxed benefits (such as vacation time, pensions and health insurance), which increased real incomes even when wage rates were frozen. The wage differential between higher skilled and less skilled workers narrowed, and with the enormous increase in overtime for blue collar wage workers (at time and a half pay), incomes in working class households shot up, while the salaried middle class lost ground.
Is it irony or coincidence that this was posted "anonymous coward"?
-Styopa
That's pretty cynical. I do have great admiration for anyone who joins the military, for the simple reason they are putting their lives on the line. [...] warmongering is not something virtuous, nor is supporting those who warmonger with your life.
Congratulations, you have posted a typically self-contradictory comment and people have decided to comment on it as if it were serious. You win teh trollprize. That or you're really really dumb, but I doubt that's the case in this comment.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
We have the plans for the Enterprise. Maybe Manitowoc can build 10 of those.
Without that we'd be an Islamic state by now
Do you seriously believe that? There is absolutely no way the terrorists ever had even the remotest hope of overthrowing our government. Your statement is one of the most ludicrous I've ever read on this whole topic -- and mountains of idiocy have been spouted.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
You could argue that the situation in north korea as it is now, is only because it has to participate in asymmetrical warfare, including a cultural warfare as well. It takes idiotic cult personalities to lead people who are otherwise ignorant, especially when the powerful and thus educated people don't give a damn about you and want to keep you dumb and powerless. Thus the koreans generally did want to have a communist government, but the USA supported the japanese and their pawns, in order to put their own people in charge. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War#Korea_divided_.281945.E2.80.931949.29
China had its communist revolution, due in part because it was getting shafted by the colonial powers, in what was known as the "unequal treaties". Similarly the colonial powers were in control of the middle east, and have exerted control over the middle east for a long time, part of which is why israel exists to begin with. We created the environment for backwards uneducated militants to exist, by depriving the populace of a government that benefits them, and empowering ruthless dictators to rule. Just because our oil comes from SA, doesn't mean that ME isn't influential to the commodities market, and ignores that we originally controlled the ME oil production. We also did the same sort of colonialism in south america, ala banana republics, panama, contra's, cuba, etc, and its real easy for us to be creative and industrious, while slave labor was producing our food for us at home and abroad. The borders that were made in the middle east and Africa, were specifically designed to pit ethnic groups against each other, and just make up fake ethnicity in the case of tutsi's and hutu's
Notice what's happening in central africa and europe. We're not super far from China+India v.s. the muslim world + South America. Look at the spread. Look at history.
"Besides, the holiday has become nothing more than a day to fill young minds with propaganda about how EVERYONE is a hero no matter what, just for BEING IN the military."
As a vet, I agree with that statement!
While it's nicer than being vilified, the truth is more complex.
Having entered service BEFORE the Bullshit Pump was turned on in it's most recent incarnation, I remember when being a "good Soldier/Sailor/Marine/Airman" was a compliment and there was no perceived need to call everyone a "hero".
If everyone is a "hero", the term loses all meaning. There are heroes, there are shitbags, and there are the great majority of Soldiers/Sailors/Marines/Airmen who get shit done pretty well.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
I do what I do so that we can keep this fight away from our home.
Yeah, by fighting in someone else's home, so their little girls get to experience it, instead.
Your little girl's security comes at the expense of hundreds of thousands of completely innocent people, and not only that, but it perpetuates the terrorism that we're supposedly over there fighting in the first place. Simple logic and human nature dictates that losing your family in response to terrorist acts they had no part in can do nothing but encourage the survivors to engage in terrorist acts themselves. If your little girls were killed by an occupying force, would you not retaliate with every fiber of your being? Yet we vilify the Iraqis (and Afghanis, and Vietnamese, and every other country we've occupied in the last 50+ years of proxy war we're involved in)? The vast majority of the people of this country would do the same fucking thing in their situation.
The late, great Bill Hicks said it best:
The world is like a ride in an amusement park, and when you choose to go on it you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. The ride goes up and down, around and around, it has thrills and chills, and it's very brightly colored, and it's very loud, and it's fun for a while. Many people have been on the ride a long time, and they begin to wonder, "Hey, is this real, or is this just a ride?" And other people have remembered, and they come back to us and say, "Hey, don't worry; don't be afraid, ever, because this is just a ride." And we kill those people. "Shut him up! I've got a lot invested in this ride, shut him up! Look at my furrows of worry, look at my big bank account, and my family. This has to be real." It's just a ride. But we always kill the good guys who try and tell us that, you ever notice that? And let the demons run amok But it doesn't matter, because it's just a ride. And we can change it any time we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings of money. Just a simple choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love instead see all of us as one. Here's what we can do to change the world, right now, to a better ride. Take all that money we spend on weapons and defenses each year and instead spend it feeding and clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would pay for many times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace.
Imagine how much good will there would be in the world if, instead of killing these people, we fed them?
If it was a peacenik's holiday, memorial day would recognize EVERYONE who died in war, not just the fools that rushed into it.
And it doesn't take much intellectual courage to toe the party line, in otherwords to continue to blindly support a flawed ideology, because you don't want to face cognitive dissonance.
if you want real courage, try looking at someone like Ghandi, Dalai Lama, Oskar Schindler, not a bunch of masochistic egomaniacs.
If so you are kidding yourself. Never mind them not being armed with any anti-ship weapons (which are rather complicated to design, manufacture, and make work), they aren't facing up against their real military counterparts. These little narco-boats are not being hunted by US Navy subs and ASW ships. They are just dealing with the DEA and coast guard.
Also they have a much easier job of staying undetected than an attack sub. When you are just trying to get from point a to point b, subs can be fairly sneaky. However when they launch an attack, everyone knows where they are when said attack happens.
If they tried to interdict merchant shipping lanes and sink ships, they'd quickly find out they are playing in a league they can't deal with. To give you an idea:
A narco sub is 40 to 80 feet in length, made of fiberglass, wood, and maybe steel, has a diesel engine, can go about 6 knots, has a range of maybe 2000nm and generally isn't fully submersible. One of the few found that was (found before its maiden voyage I might add) could go about 300 feet under water. No design optimization for silent operation, no sonar, no torpedoes, weapons are only whatever the 3-6 crew have.
Against that would be the Virgina class attack subs. 377 feet long, made of reenforced steel and classified composites. Has a nuclear engine with unlimited range, and diesel backup, and go "more than 25 knots" the government won't say what its actual max speed is. Likewise it has demonstrated a public test dive to 800 feet, real max depth classified. It carries 12 tomahawk missiles, and has 4 torpedo tubes that can fire Mark 48 torpedoes (it carries 26 total of them) or harpoon anti-ship missiles. It has the best passive and active sonar systems the US has ever made, all the capabilities are classified. It has been designed to be as silent as possible and is supposed to be as quiet underway as a Seawolf tied to a pier (already a very quiet sub).
You really think there's any comparison?
You have to remember for all the chatter of a "war on drugs" it is really just an ineffectual police action. When one of these narco subs gets spotted, the crew scuttles it so as to not get caught with anything. The coast guard then rescues the crew. They are just (semi) stealthy drug transports.
If they were being used to interdict and sink shipping traffic, there would be a REAL war and these things wouldn't be looked for so their crews could be taken in to custody, they'd be blown the fuck up. Wouldn't just be the US on their ass either, though they would be the biggest threat, merchant ships are flagged from nations all over the world, they'd all be out for blood if they were getting blown up.
The USA fast food industry can do both at once!
I did run for office, and was arguably the most intelligent, and least funded of the candidates.
ignorant apologists will be the end of us.
> promises 40 virgins
Yeah, but then the Democrats and Republicans would be in deadlock over the gender of the virgins and if they needed summoning by a wide stance and foot tapping.
Butler wasn't wrong in the general case, only in that specific one. He was speaking from experience gained by U.S. adventurism in Central and South America.
For every one "justifiable war" you can name, such as the defense of Europe from Nazism, I can name a dozen or more that fit Butler's description.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
Cute but while we're dreaming why cut yourself short. How about we just stop having wars all together or do people forget how these things start, I know yesterday is a long time in the internet world but 30+ children were masquerader in Syria.
Hate a president or not I seriously doubt you want to hing his life on the vote of the mob masses and how they feel about something they no longer remember.
Because of course, all muslims are terrorists. Well played.
or is Rear Admiral a really unfortunate-sounding rank to have?
You racist fucker!
You have just proved that you don't know what you are talking about. I am certainly not racially prejudiced, to be so I would have to be prejudiced against members of my own family. Many Muslim terrorists are white, I judge by actions and intentions not race.
The problem with placing too much "honor" on the soldiers for their work is the vast majority go on to support the politicians that push the military agenda at the expense of sustainable policies.
Eisenhower said essentially the same thing in 1953:
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.This world in arms in not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children.
The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some 50 miles of concrete highway. We pay for a single fighter with a half million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people. This, I repeat, is the best way of life to be found on the road the world has been taking. This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron."
"Oh God help us. We're in the hands of engineers."
As a military veteran with friends and family who also served in the military...
That's extremely sad. Like anyone who understands the nature and cause of war, I view soldiers as what they are: the first victims of a hormonally driven, completely irrational and pointlessly destructive behavioural legacy of human evolution.
You and your friends and family have my deepest pity, and I sincerely hope we will one day live in a world where being a deadweight loss to the economy is not considered a matter of pride but sadness, and we all recognize that all soldiers are victims of our human failings.
Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
You do what you do because your a bloody fool, which explains why you dont understand the cold war. which was one instigated by the USA, because the communist ideology was dangerous to corporate america, not that the communists were a danger to civilization. How is us treating the middle east or soviet union as "savages", any different than how we treated the native americans for being "savages", especially when our policies keep them undeveloped and savage? If you REALLY cared about your baby girls, or perhaps the baby girls of the rest of the world, you would start supporting international welfare instead of warfare. Muslims just like christians become much more tolerable, when they are educated and dont have to resort to savagery to survive.
This isn't completely true... Electric Boat was the only private shipyard building submarines, but Mare Island Naval Shipyard and Portsmouth Naval Shipyard were building them too.
Admiral Nelson considerably oversimplifies a complex situation. EB provided more than just plans... They also provided experienced engineers and trained workmen to bootstrap Manitowoc's efforts. In the early stages, they sent parts and components from EB to Manitowoc as well. Manitowoc also sent people to EB for training and experience. Engineers and experienced Naval Constructors came from BUSHIPS in Washington D.C and Portsmouth and Mare Island Naval Shipyards.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled rants about the military-industrial complex and anti-military sentiment.
/submarinehistorypedant.
I did run for office, and was arguably the most intelligent, and least funded of the candidates.
I'm sorry you didn't succeed, but don't let one loss stop you from trying again. Getting elected requires a business plan for raising funds and gallons of tenacity.
As much as it pains me to do so... I have to say that you're wrong and he's correct.
The historical reason for Memorial Day was to honor those who fell in service, but over the years it has expanded. Over the years it grew to encompass all service members who have died including veterans and retirees that passed quietly in their beds decades after their service. In particular, over the last decade is has further expanded in the public mind to include living servicembers and veterans as well.
(And, FWIW, I'm a vet too.)
Unfortunately, this is the real world and not a theory. Obviously, sharing and living cooperatively would be the best for all but people all want what's best for them. Ever read the Communist Manifesto (I had to in HS) or read Animal Farm? Things always start well then some want perks then things devolve. Kind of visible in the USA right now with hand-outs being given to selected groups of people and politicians getting money from special interests (all denominations of politician). Do you really think people can live in harmony? If so, you'll be the first to lose.
It had nothing to do with protecting our allies, it had to do with protecting our business interest, which communism was an ideological threat to. The citizens of Vietnam and Korea wanted communism, and just like many other countries we took it away from them, so that we could continue to reap the rewards of our influence.
Really? Every citizen in Vietnam and Korea wanted communism? Next I suppose you're going to tell us that those not wanting communism were brainwashed/bribed by the US Industrial/Military Complex, while the USSR/China side was not.
I can mend the break of day, heal a broken heart, and provide temporary relief to nymphomaniacs.
..that continuously stealing the property of Arabs and "giving it to settlers" is exactly the same as South Africa's Apartheid. It is creating tremendous and justified hatred against Israel. Modern day Jews are just as idiotic as the Islamists, otherwise they would by now respect other people's property and territory.
They risk their long-term existence by behaving like shit. Proper behavior would be to build a Berlin-style wall and stick to their fscking side of the wall. Worked perfectly here in separating Nazis (those who were in the pay of the CIA; Gehlen et al) and Commies (propped up by the KGB).
But the incredible dumbness of modern-day Israel gives the Islamists a rallying cause and it will bite the Jews very hard in the next few decades.
Define 'leaders'.
Define 'offensive war/battle'.
Define 'justified'.
Envision 'political propaganda'. Except this time, post-war leaders actually die when their opponents are successful in smearing them. Direct democracy is almost never, if ever, a good idea.
Also, your image of kings 'at the front line' may be slightly romanticized. As I understand it, even if they led their men into battle, they would not be in the front ranks and would even then be captured for ransom most of the time.
..they first take Germany's tax evading money and then they take the security provided by Germany. For free. Their own army is a running joke, even if measured as soliders/capita.
Yeah, but when a soldier signs his enlistment papers, he's not just putting his ass on the line to make a living and feed his family like your examples; ultimately, he/she is also committing to putting his ass on the line for you and me.
To me, there's something special about that--and it's a shame we only give this thought a pittance of attention once or twice a year. Maybe if we took this individual commitment more seriously, and reciprocated, we wouldn't have so many former warriors physically and emotionally wrecked, homeless and without hope.
..Anti-Islamism is Racism !!! Haven't you heard ? Islam is a race ! You transform your genes by being circumcised ! (and whatever else their rituals are). Yeah, that's modern science of 1300 A.D. I mean 900 after the birth of that violent psycho of Arabia.
"better watch out for those Norwegians"
I think they are nowadays called "US Marines". But their genes match pretty well.
The middle east is ridiculously wealthy with resources. I currently live in Saudia Arabia and have for close to 15 years. If you want to see how the 1% live outside of the US, come here. The middle east needs to take care of it's own people first before asking, or demanding, the West to help. We have the money, we choose to spend it on gold-plated cars instead of people.
..were indeed nasty bastards (killing millions of their own; of their own best) and they had lots and lots of guns after WW2. So there was a reason to have credible defense against them. But "saving" Vietnam from their ideas ? As stupid as "saving Afghans from Islamism". Let these people eat the shit they brought over themselves. At one point they will realize the mistake; I guess the Vietnamese already slowly do.
What is worse is that Western Security is making Mr Felix their effective role model (more snooping by the day; Guantanmo; Federal Bureau of Intimidation (it's very real if you piss into the mental garden of important people)).
In the old days kings used to lead their soldiers into battle.
Some did. Most didn't. We just hear about the ones that did because they are more interesting.
Basically, if leaders are going to send troops on an _offensive_ war/battle (not defensive war) there must be a referendum on the war.
I agree with the principle but in practice it's not always so easy to tell the difference. The best way to deal with some threats is not always to simply wait for the attack to come and respond.
If there are not enough votes for the war, those leaders get put on deathrow. At a convenient time later, a referendum is held to redeem each leader. Leaders that do not get enough votes get executed. For example if too many people stay at home and don't bother voting - the leaders get executed.
Your suggestion above is utterly batshit insane. Your solution to kill people to avoid killing people is pretty much the dumbest idea I've ever read. It's as dumb as the "pro life" zealots who kill doctors to stop abortions. Wars are almost never popular. Furthermore even if we did implement such an idiotic policy, no one else would and thus in any armed conflict our leaders would have an incentive to take the non-violent path even if that was a bad idea. Good policies are frequently not popular policies.
My explanation (from what I read and heard) was that Germany was devastated from the financial crisis of 1929 and from the WW1 reparations. That led to the political success of Mr Hitler, as he proposed radical solutions and jobs.
So it seems, ordinary people take part in that War Racket. Something like "give me a job; whatever happens next". Mr Hilter gave them first jobs, then guns and after that a fucking cold grave near Stalingrad, while their homes were razed in bombing raids.
..wasn't really benefiting from WW2, as they were first put under state control and then devastated. What they gained was serious knowledge about new technologies and crash programs, though. But that is hardly how businessmen want to advance themselves. "We will first show you some tremendous stuff, then raze all your factories. You will be put to jail for 10 years, but after that your workers will be much more advanced and so will be your products. Your sons will all be dead.". Does definitely not sound like a capitalist's dream.
..loss rate was something like 60% for the Uboot sailors. A better term would be "self-murder boat".
There aren't enough US ships to protect all the cargo ships, and its part of the reason why iran's control of the strait of hormuz is so important, even without the fancy battleships.
US ships don't have to be everywhere, just like police don't have to be everywhere all the time.
If Iran really started causing serious problems in the Straights of Hormuz, they would sooner or later have to tangle with the US Navy and probably the navies of the EU as well. I don't think Iran's leaders are really quite so dumb give the recent object lessons of Iraq and Afghanistan. The US doesn't want armed conflict with Iran but there is little doubt the US could crush Iran's military without much difficulty. Kind of hard to control the area with a bunch of aircraft carriers parked off the coast and no military hardware remaining.
One of the most powerful and efficient nations had to put immense resources behind their submarine program to just achieve some effect. Then the "muddling-through" nation actually used their brainz and set up convoys, protected by destroyers.
That resulted in that massive submarine effort to be ineffective. Destroyers can outrun any Diesel-electric sub and then dump hundreds of tons of explosives onto them. Nowadays helos and software-controlled torpedos would be even more effective. You are saying some smelly narcos can threaten anything ? They surely can sink one of 10000 container ships. They can hold them hostage (see the Somalians). But if the problem grows to big, convoys will be set up and the criminals will be turned into hacked meat.
The late, great Bill Hicks said it best:
There was nothing great about Bill Hicks. He was simply a bitter man that hated everything. What's funny is that he would despise people like you that deify him now that he's dead.
Take all that money we spend on weapons and defenses each year and instead spend it feeding and clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would pay for many times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace.
This from the same man that described humanity as "a virus with shoes"
Hicks was no different from any other bi-polar leftwing cynic: swinging wildly from visions of utopia to expressing the deepest hope that a giant meteor would come and end humanity once and for all. Yes, that's some voice in the wilderness you follow.
Imagine how much good will there would be in the world if, instead of killing these people, we fed them?
We already do that to a great extent. The United States in particular gives away more aid in food, medicines, and money than anyone else in history. We do it on a massive scale. And it'll never bring about this utopia you seek. Because humanity is flawed, and despite Gene Roddenberry's own utopian ideals, human nature will never "evolve". It is what it is. The are inescapable consequences to this truth. "For the poor will always be with you", as Jesus put it, is one of them.
We could totally and completely devote our country to doing nothing but feeding and caring for the rest of the world. We could completely stand down our army and become the biggest welfare state anywhere. And it would change nothing. Because there will always be people that, no matter what you do for them, will want to kill you and take what you have, or simply kill you because they don't like what you're thinking. The ramblings of "if we just embraced peace" from people like Hicks are the ramblings of fools. We're not perfect by any means, and there's a lot of room for improvement, but I'll take having a military defend our interests while trying to help others as we can... over simply laying our arms down and hoping for the best. The former is prudent. The latter will end you, with some other guy killing you and taking your stuff.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
to have seen ships burning after being torpedoed off the Delaware coast; dived in both WWII era sub, a Balistic Missle sub and a modern attack boat; played war games against Russian subs (they were remarkably friendly and knew our exercise rules and would help us with data to assist our scoring). We used to exchange officers between our subs and the anti-subs so we each could better understand the limitations each operated under, the effectiveness of their weapons, sensors and the like. Those guys were good.
And I just got back from a ceremony honoring an Air Force medic killed along with dozens of others when his chopper was shot down in Afghanistan. His widow lives near me, her husband never got to see the house they were building. The speech was given by a neighbor who can barely walk having crashed too many times and jumped too many times. Yes, he suffers from PTSD. Can't sleep well at night. And now spends his days dealing with suicides in the army trying to prevent and then to console the families.
Those are the heroes.
Some others of us who served, through the luck of our assignments, had relatively easy times of it. I volunteered in an era of the draft. I'm glad I did it.
What have you done for others? Have you even lost a friend?
"One torpedo can destroy more equipment by sinking a ship than would be lost in a large land battle."
Just to build (develop, test,make) that torpedo plus the delivering submarine takes much more resources than any land battle. Only the richest nations can do anything meaningful in terms of torpedos. The others have a lucky shot with a torpedo developed by Germany, Britain, Russia, USA or France.
Guys, guys, chill, the first paragraph is a quote from GP! He just screwed up his hypertext tag.
weinersmith
Well said!
Nate
Furthermore what about the countless other lives that we have ended, and the countless populations that we have stolen from, in order to live in the extravagance that we enjoy today?
Brainwashed!
Go live elsewhere then. If you think the United States is so bad, why do you stay? Find yourself a nice country somewhere that you think is morally superior, and go there. We'll certainly be happier for it. I don't think you will though, because I think you're the kind of person that's going to bitch and moan about how rotten things are wherever you go. Regardless, go somewhere else and be their problem if you hate it some much here. You're not going to "redeem" us, after all.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
The word "hero" is just another victim of the rampant rhetoric inflation in the US political discourse. When and why it started I cannot say, but I really don't think it has anywhere to go but down at this point. I mean, how much more exaggerated and ridiculous can the language of congress and Fox News and MSNBC get, right?! (Said he, knowing full well it can always get worse...)
weinersmith
Since when is war cheap. These submarines were highly effective and highly efficient in choking Japan to economic death. They took away the material required to build dozens of billions of Japanese war material. Does a beancounter like you understand this ??
Someone had in their sig, "The English language was invented by Norman soldiers to seduce Saxon barmaids".
I pretty much agree, but the amount of money we spend on military and defense is just ridiculous.
Memorial day my fucking ass.
Think I'll fly extra flags today. Because giving more honor to those that put their lives on the line for us... and those that have lost it for us... has the dual benefit of being both a great thing to do... and the right thing to do... and annoying the likes of you. You're right in that too many people focus on the holiday aspect of this day, and not enough on the "memorial" part. You're pretty much wrong about everything else.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
Hey, starworks5. Just want to say that I agree with you (not just on this last post here but also on the ones above that you have made). Just felt like I should say this, considering that most people here seem to oppose your views. People should try reading "Johnny got his gun" or "War is a racket", or just in general be a bit more aware. Yes, most wars have roots in economic considerations.
Yes, people are being duped. Yes, the rich and powerful will make it appear that the war is necessary, that the military is glamorous in some way, that you are a hero if you serve.
None of that is true: In the past, people could be drafted because politicians issuing the draft orders were not sufficiently opposed. These days people join voluntarily because they have been deprived of alternatives and/or are being made to believe that it's adventurous/honorable/etc. In the end, in both cases, the rich and powerful benefit and the poor who were drafted or drank the koolaid died.
Smedley Butler in "War is a racket" was already proposing a constitutional amendment, which would require a referendum before allowing the US to draft troops and send them to war. With a volunteer force and many different conflicts - small and large - constantly going on this suggested referendum would require an update to be applicable to our times. But it's still worth reading.
define define.
There's a different level of stress when someone is actively trying to kill you vs bad luck.
love is just extroverted narcissism
Bravo. If I had points, I'd mod you up. Being an AC all I can do is be glad that someone wrote what should have been written.
It's one thing to complain about the status quo, to point at the flaws, cast light on the hatred and endeavor to bring peace and love to humanity. It's another thing entirely to just stand there in the pile of shit, scraping it off yourself while hurling it at others and saying "Nya Nya Nya you have poo on you." If you want to be part of the solution, get rid of the shit that's on you, then help others get the shit off themselves. Be part of the solution in some way other than exemplifying the problem. You don't have to be a genius to see flaws, to mock them, or event o be funny about it. But you have to be a genius to actually help solve them. And Bill Hicks sure as shit didn't fix much.
Humanity suffers at the hands of physics and biology. If a living body absorbs enough energy, quickly enough, it dies. There will always be people who care so little about others that they will take what they want, when they want, for no reason than that they want it. Could we produce enough food so no one goes to sleep hungry every night? Yes, we already do. But some malcontents _don't_want_that_to_happen. They are perfectly happy letting others die, people whom they are supposed to protect, so they can enrich themselves. Hell, they may not even see other homo sapiens as fully human. Physics, applied to biology, driven by a profound lack of empathy means that people like this often end up in power, and they can employ these strategies on a much larger scale. They convince others to follow them, and the power grows. Unfortunately, these same malcontents will take whatever, from whomever, and are therefore very difficult to dislodge. Ignoring them does not make them bored and cause them to give up, unlike what we were taught in school. Too often, it requires an eternal authority figure to say "no."
It's easy to separate the politician from the soldier, but that doesn't totally absolve the soldier. Save a little bit of blame for the man that pulls the trigger.
Honor in soldiering is pretty hard to come by. Contrast this with most other jobs. Maybe that's why the honor of the soldier is valued so much.
Play Command HQ online
It's patriotic to want your country to stop being evil.
Play Command HQ online
Because food aid worked out SO well in Somalia, right?!
Hahaha. You mean "as we remember and celebrate barbecuing and long weekends off from work".
Besides, the holiday has become nothing more than a day to fill young minds with propaganda about how EVERYONE is a hero no matter what, just for BEING IN the military. That way, we collectively put anyone joining the military on a pedestal. That way, we keep the machine fed so dumb young people are brainwashed by the rest of us into sacrificing themselves -- worthwhile for a good cause and not so much for trivial world-cop activities and guarding international corporate interests and oil-wells. We're all guilty of promoting the government propaganda that keeps allowing elderly fucktard politicians to throw young lives away. Memorial day my fucking ass.
.
Shoot Yourself! Grab Assitance first though, im afraid you might miss!
"Thus ended the great American Civil War, which upon the whole must be considered the noblest and least avoidable of all the great mass conflicts of which till then there was record."
-- Winston Churchill
Surely Butler was aware of the Civil War. Notice that the two American wars considered good were forced on us, while we've gleefully made unjust war dozens and dozens of times.
Play Command HQ online
Appreciate the reply and I do agree that Memorial Day honors (and should honor) the veterans who have served but died for non-combat reasons or after their service for other reasons. But we have a holiday for veterans and other military service members and it's Veteran's Day. Memorial Day, as the name implies, ought to honor those who have died, in my opinion. Thanks to those who have come before me, anyone in the U.S. is free to disagree, however. :)
If the politicians can't convince enough people that the war is justified can you please tell me WHY there should be war?
Because the majority isn't always right, doesn't always have the facts and votes are about perceptions instead of reality. There is a very good reason that military hierarchy isn't a democracy. Furthermore the democratic process is slow. Sometimes that's a very good thing, sometimes it is not. Don't get me wrong, I think there need to be some pretty severe curbs on the ability of our elected leaders to commit our troops to battle. That's why we have separation of powers and the executive branch doesn't control the money for the armed forces in our country. No money = very short war.
If you think the majority of your people will be so stupid in such serious and important matters, then using the same reasoning you should do away with democratic elections too right?
There is a huge difference between voting on a leader and voting on all the issues the leader will deal with. There are many issues that each of us don't have much experience with. I am not an expert on national security but I am actually pretty good at evaluating candidates for a job. I've interviewed many people often for jobs I'm not personally an expert in. Lots of people (most in fact) have the ability to evaluate talent even in areas where they lack the talent themselves. So yes, the public IS uninformed and stupid about many specific matters relating to national security but they are NOT uninformed and stupid about how to determine if someone else is knowledgeable about that topic. The job of a democracy is to hire leaders with specific knowledge, not to decide on most of those issues directly themselves. Doesn't mean the voters will always get it right (refer to George Bush if you need a good example of a badly chosen leader) but they usually do a good job in the long run.
Furthermore if the public really wants to stop their leaders from starting wars in the US, all they have to do is amend the Constitution. The power to control our leaders already exists and doesn't require mass executions. Direct democracy results in the tyranny of the majority.
If they attack first, the leaders can nuke them to bits if they think its justified.
In an age of nuclear weapons and weaponized biological agents, waiting for someone to attack you and only then responding is tantamount to suicide. Do you really want to wait for someone who is willing to be a suicide bomber to attack you with a nuclear weapon before responding?
An internal civil war can be considered a separate category. Butler was addressing external intervention, imperialism and adventurism.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
English consists entirely of foreign words, pronounced wrongly.
The majority of koreans and vietnamese wanted communism, we had to kill large amounts of them to change their minds, or change the voting demographic as it were.
http://www.cleveland.com/world/index.ssf/2010/07/south_korea_shuts_down_korean-.html
Just posting to undo a mod, I thought you wrote the first half of your post.
The map is not the territory.
I remember when being a "good Soldier/Sailor/Marine/Airman" was a compliment and there was no perceived need to call everyone a "hero".
I remember a story about one of the forward camps in Iraq where a portable toilet had scrawled on the wall, "Anyone can piss on the seat, be a hero and shit on the ceiling!"
I don't care what you do with your ass, but Memorial Day is to honor those that gave their lives for this country. It began after the Civil War and was adopted to include all those who gave their lives for a cause THEY believed in. RESPECT those who gave their lives for your freedoms.
The leaders already get around this by not calling the conflicts wars. They call them "police actions", etc. Were this ever to become a ballot proposal, the leaders would say "well, what constitutes an offensive war? do i need a referendum for the war on drugs? should we wait until election day to decide if police snipers can take out the crazy with the 30 hostage schoolchildren?" etc.
There is a color of grey you are missing, or maybe a color of red. To pay for my fancy piece of paper from the best college I could afford I did construction work. One Winter day I was told that some guy died from a piece of steel falling off the roof. Somebody had to do his job and I was it. So I went over and started doing his job like a good employee. What I was standing in I still remember: a piece of plywood with frozen blood soaking it stuck to the ground. It couldn't be removed because it was harder than ice and it would take too much time.
My boss intentionally put me in a position where someone died. Does that make me a hero?
weren't the saudi royal family supported by the united states....
Define it how you will. If you don't know who your leaders are etc, I don't see why it's worth wasting further time with you.
The USA gives away a Lot more in food than it used to, and a lot less in financial aid. This creates demand for US producers, and even a lot of the aid carries stipulations that it must be spent in approved ways, not just in good ways, but in ways that benefit US interests.
"He's the Universal Soldier and he really is to blame..."
tl;dr: perfection is unattainable, so don't bother trying to improve things. Oh, and DesScorp fancies himself a greater curmudgeon than Bill Hicks. A greater Nihilist than Nietsche.
Dude, you're not a special flower -- you're just another selfish libertarian with a grudge. Against everyone. Liberals for caring, conservatives for busting shit up, and everyone in general for dissing your ineloquence. Wahmbulance rides, 3 for a dollar.
Posted A/C because groupthink here'll plummet it to trollsville regardless. Nowadays, slashdotters want to believe this mantra, but it's riddled with so much sophistry ('you could completely alter X and **NOTHING** would change (no proof given)-- therefore change nothing'), (inventing how Bill Hicks would feel about people, but proposing the opposite of Hicks' views as best) (equating spending less on war with abject pacifism) (misquoting jesus as an excuse for not helping the poor) ... yeah, confirmation bias won't run me into the ditch...
We have the plans for the Enterprise. Maybe Manitowoc can build 10 of those.
The world is made by those who show up for the job.
As a military veteran with friends and family who also served in the military (some who have been in combat), I'd like to offer you the most sincere heartfelt sentiment I can think of: Fuck You.
As a military veteran with friends and family who also served in the military (some who have been in combat, myself included..), I'd like to offer you the most sincere heartfelt sentiment I can think of: Fuck You.
Get off your fucking high horse.
Memorial Day is about barbeques and yellow banners. Nothing more.
LOL....some of the graffiti in the latrines over there was truly epic. I don't really remember any choice lines, but I do remember epic flame wars between Army, Air Force, Navy, etc. Lots of crossed out words with substitutions written in, criticism of grammar and spelling errors, and other toilet humor. ... Hey, now I know where that phrase comes from.
The Civil War was "unavoidable"? Are you kidding me? The two nations going their separate ways peacefully wasn't an option?
So, when I see beans and rice at a Spanish restaurant labeled "moros y cristianos" I know that's an artifact of a Muslim invasion of Southern Europe.
So what? If you want to start talking about 500 year old history let's go back to the genocide of native Americas by Europeans, or the history of the slave trade.
Oh, and your 100 year plan is paranoid right wing fantasy.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
It worked remarkably adequately for us in the cold war, and I hope will happen the same way in the next too.
Can I sell you a tiger repellent rock?
The likelihood of a worldwide enforced conversion to Islam through military action is even less likely than the utterly implausible idea that Russia would ever have invaded mainland USA.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
If you ever want some easy karma points on slashdot, just post a defense of the military-industrial complex, with an added bonus if you gratuitously attack someone perceived as left wing by the extreme right wing conservatives in the US and a special triple bonus for twisting some words in the Bible to your own fascist agenda.
The reason "bi-polar leftwing cynics" occasionally despair of humanity and contemplate the benefits of wiping it off the map and starting with a clean slate is precisely because of the fuckwits in control being smug rightwing elitists who have scrabbled to the top of the greasy pole and think it is because of their own innate genius that they are owed a greater share of happiness than the majority.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
The middle east is ridiculously wealthy with resources. I currently live in Saudia Arabia and have for close to 15 years. If you want to see how the 1% live outside of the US, come here. The middle east needs to take care of it's own people first before asking, or demanding, the West to help. We have the money, we choose to spend it on gold-plated cars instead of people.
I don't think anyone is saying that the US should send food parcels to Saudi Arabian royalty, do you?
Yes, Saudi Arabia should look after its own people. The trouble is the West selling them ridiculous amoutns of military hardware instead.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
And Bill Hicks sure as shit didn't fix much.
Similarly, Donald Rumsfeld's stand up career never really took off.
What is your point?
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
tl;dr: perfection is unattainable, so don't bother trying to improve things
Bravo, this has always been the argument of reactionaries.
It has been used to justify slavery, child labour, inhumane working conditions, forbidding women the vote, lynching black people and every other crime against humanity.
"It's just the way people/things are."
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Look how many on that list are only capable of being on that list because either the US, Canada, Australia, or New Zealand have defense agreements with them. They can afford not to have militaries because other people are responsible for their defense.
I think most people would agree that a relatively small international military/peacekeeping force is a good idea to protect small countries from aggressive neighbours. I believe the UN does this already.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
you can't argue that a country could do without a military. Without that we'd be an Islamic state by now
I love how rightwing nutjobs have simply replaced Communist with Islamic in their hate speech.
It's not a question of a country having a military to defend itself, the problem is when it is so huge that it has to justify its existence by invading foreign countries on flimsy or simply made up pretexts. *cough* Iraq *cough.
What Islamic country do you really think is capable of invading and subduing the US?
Just because a few terrorists got lucky on 9/11 doesn't mean there's a full scale war going on.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
I am certainly not racially prejudiced, to be so I would have to be prejudiced against members of my own family.
That isn't a problem for true racists, who are so stupid they'd cut off their own arm if it got sunburnt.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
It's your proposal. You need to be prepared to back it up with detail or people will think you're just throwing an extremist idea into the arena based on little more than bloodlust.
The reality is that your proposal exhibits a gross oversimplification of the reality of war and the responsibilities that surround it. I was hoping that you were more serious about defending it.
Expecting a comedian to sincerely mean everything they say is ridiculous.
"virus in shoes" and "giant meteor" - these were the words of a man who earned his living telling jokes - he wasn't a presidential candidate.
Sometimes he chose to intersperse his comic act with some humorous philosophical points. Those points are not negated either by the man's character or the context in which they were delivered.
You describe a benevolent USA that does what it can within reason to help others. I would contend that this is a gross perversion of reality. Your reasoning is either hideously self-serving or extremely naive.
Either way:
Fuck you
We already do that to a great extent. The United States in particular gives away more aid in food, medicines, and money than anyone else in history. We do it on a massive scale.
In absolute numbers, the U.S. is indeed the single largest aid giver in the world, giving more than double than the next two nations (U.K. and France) put together.
As a percent of GDP though, it's actually Norway. The U.S. comes in at number 19 when counted that way (0.21% of GDP for the U.S, 1.10% for Norway).
In fiscal year 2010, the U.S. government allocated the following amounts for aid:
Total economic and military assistance: $52.7 billion
Total military assistance: $15.0 billion
Total economic assistance: $37.7 billion
of which, USAID assistance: $14.1 billion
Add to that somewhere between $10-$30 billion from private sources (foundations, organizations etc).
Grand total, somewhere around a tenth of the military budget:
In fiscal year 2010, the U.S. government spent $711 billion on the military, almost exactly as much as the next fourteen biggest spenders together.
41% of the total military budget of the world is the U.S. alone.
sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid
http://fullfact.org/factchecks/Daily_Mail_Express_Daily_Telegraph_international_aid_UK_most_generous_G8_OECD-2738
"Total destruction the only solution" - Bob Marley
The article referenced doesn't support that position. The refugees were leaving North Korea ahead of the advancing North Korean troops. Sounds like their minds had been made up, or at least they wanted to get out of Dodge, but the US and South Koreans didn't want to deal with them. Bad all the way around, but no proof that they 'wanted' communism.
I could also argue that since resisting the communists was likely to get you killed or imprisoned, that those who supported communism did so only under duress.
I can mend the break of day, heal a broken heart, and provide temporary relief to nymphomaniacs.
My post wasn't about if it was good or not, my post was simply the fact that just because tiny little countries do not have active militaries does it mean that everyone can forgo one, since clearly neither can they when they use defense agreements with larger and richer countries to protect themselves.
And now we see the ugliness that lies beneath the "I support the troops but not the mission" lie.
Cold War, Vietnam, Iraq, Adghanistan, Africa, South America: they are all part of the Third World War, WW3. This has been fought in third World countries for the last 50 years, mostly by proxy.
Heavy is the head that wears the tinfoil hat.
If the USA would take down its trade subsidies and allow poor countries to sell their agricultural produce in markets that were not distorted by American aid and subsidised US products, then they could feed themselves without our charity..
Heavy is the head that wears the tinfoil hat.