US Ordered To Hand Over Megaupload Documents

An anonymous reader writes "A judge in New Zealand has ordered the U.S. government to hand over evidence seized in the Megaupload raid so Kim Dotcom and his co-defendants can use it to prepare a defense for an extradition hearing. The judge wrote, 'Actions by and on behalf of the requesting State have deprived Mr. Dotcom and his associates of access to records and information. ... United States is attempting to utilize concepts from the civil copyright context as a basis for the application of criminal copyright liability [which] necessitates a consideration of principles such as the dual use of technology and what they be described as significant non-infringing uses.' Once the defense attorneys have gathered and presented their evidence, the judge must decide whether the U.S. can make a reasonable case against Dotcom."

Comments

Dear USA

[overbaud]

Please leave the rest of the world alone. Thankyou.

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

Much as we would like them too, the american way of life requires that they control the flow of fuel, materials and goods inward and intangible imaginary goods in exchange (since increasingly they produce very little.)

And anyway they are the good guys, god in on their side, and they want it, so there.

Re:Dear USA

[mechtech256]

New Zealand is responsible for what they do in their own backyard with their own police forces. If they want to surrender their sovereignty to a bunch of RIAA/MPAA hacks who have paid off the right people, that's their prerogative. It's obvious that they've realized the mistake and are trying to make things right, but in the end it's NZ that screwed up here.

Re:Dear USA

[Psychotria]

Please leave the rest of the world alone. Thankyou.

You're far too polite.

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

The US produces very little? It's incredibly obvious to tell you're trolling with statements like that.

Re:Dear USA

[The Master Control P]

You know, manufacturing in the US has actually kept going up ever since the 80s. It just doesn't employ anyone any more because it's more cost effective to pay an engineer here to design an automated shop that employs 10 people instead of 500.

Re:Dear USA

[SuricouRaven]

Or use Apple's approach. Do the design in the US, where you have a ready supply of the highest skilled workers in the world, but do the manufacturing somewhere like China to take advantage of much lower costs for unskilled and low-skill workers.

Re:Dear USA

[Mr. Underbridge]

....until the next time we really, really need you to bail us out of a jam.

Hey, the US has tried to play isolationist a few times, it seems to be Europe that keeps begging us back out of retirement. Just sayin'.

As an example, I'm assuming that Europe absolutely will not be seeking any sort of economic assistance from the US as part of the sovereign debt problems that seem to be facing 2/3 of that continent. And I'm also certain that Japan, SK, and Taiwan would be A-OK with us removing any and all support that has helped stabilize that region. Admittedly we've fucked up the whole middle east thing, but it was sort of our turn since everybody else has over the last couple thousand years.

As an American, we're used to the "Go away until we need your resources to solve our problems, at which we will act like ungrateful bastards about it" thing. Keep it up.

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

Please leave the rest of the world alone. Thankyou.

Yes, we should withdraw from the U.N, halt foreign trade & aid programs, and cut all travel / communication. A+ firstpost from the apologist for the fat douchebag

Re:Dear USA

[lexa1979]

Yes, we need your resources to save our asses from the problems you created first. Capitalism and Freedom, the American way, is NOT what humanity needed, but it is what you exported during numerous wars all over the world these last 2 centuries. Your only goal is to "buy" new customers, you convert them to your culture either by war or by advertisements, then you don't understand why they can't continue to pay ? Hell, you're doing everything to be the only one to sell stuffs on the "converted world". And I participate in this... An ungrateful bastard.

Re:Dear USA

[cpghost]

As an example, I'm assuming that Europe absolutely will not be seeking any sort of economic assistance from the US as part of the sovereign debt problems that seem to be facing 2/3 of that continent.

Considering that the US's sovereign debt is already way higher than most of Europe's; the only way the US can help is by having the FED keeping up with the ECB in printing fresh new more and more worthless money (so the USD exchange rate to the EUR won't climb way too high). And this, the FED is doing on its own, without Europe even asking for it.

Re:Dear USA

[sa1lnr]

Europeans: Stop making reflexive anti-American statements at every opportunity. Thank you.

Last time I looked Australia and New Zealand were not part of Europe.

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

It has happened in the past and it may happen again in the future. But *this time*, you bitches need something from us. And we're still figuring out if we'll give it to you or not.

Regards,
New Zealand.

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

"supply of the highest skilled workers in the world"

Can you prove that claim?

Re:Dear USA

[ciderbrew]

No, but they do belong to the Queen. And the Commonwealth has slightly more money down the back of the sofa that Europe at the moment. But geographically you are CORRECT!

Maybe he was just making a general request.

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you tried to use a puck mouse?

Someone HAD to be high for that one.

Re:Dear USA

[baileydau]

The US produces very little? It's incredibly obvious to tell you're trolling with statements like that.

Actually from my point of view, I'd have to agree with the GP.

I can't think of a single item I own that was actually made in USA. I own plenty of stuff made by US companies, but as far as I'm aware not on US soil.

At one stage I thought my mountain bike was actually made in the US, but then I found a sticker that disproved that (can't remember where it said now)

A brief survey of most stuff I own indicates that most of it came from China, followed by Taiwan and various other Asian countries.

That's one of the big issues I see with the "first world". We don't actually make the stuff any more that got us to that position in the first place. How long before the rest of the world doesn't need us any more?

Re:Dear USA

[Chrisq]

Europeans: Stop making reflexive anti-American statements at every opportunity. Thank you.

Not a chance in hell. Now if we could get those trashy Ukers to actually stop considering themselves the 51st american state in all but name that'll be a good day.

You might get your wish. If Scotland gets independence then we may well consider ourselves the 51st and 52nd state.

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

but do the manufacturing somewhere like China to take advantage of much lower costs for unskilled and low-skill workers.

Are you really implying that Chinese workers in those warehouses are unskilled? Are you fucking nuts? Try going there and work in the skin of one and then tell me again who is unskilled.

You Sir, are fucking moron. I also have my PhD and I'm doing office work but that doesn't mean I have the right to judge other people doing manual labor.

It is because of people like you that we have the first-world / second-world delimitation.

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm pretty sure the Scottish plan is to somehow join Scandinavia, at least that's how one of them explained it to me.

I'm not entirely sure how they plan on pulling it off but sure seems ambitious.

Re:Dear USA

[boundary]

It is absolutely not our (the New Zealand people's) prerogative. This whole situation occurred because the NZ Police (none of whom are elected) thought they could get some international glory from a big case. They failed to do their research. They failed to follow proper procedure. They failed to use appropriate force. They failed on every account. And now they look like the try-hard asswipes that they are. If this was a one-off I'd be mildly surprised, but it has happened before, and it's making me feel quite nauseous. For example the NZ Defence Force has been caught on numerous times sucking up to the yanks just to improve their chances of being involved in military exercises, which was in strict contravention of the orders they received from the NZ Government at the time. They are out of control. So are the cops. Small men in large uniforms, thinking their dicks will grow bigger if they chum up to the big boys. Everyone, without exception, that I have talked to about this in NZ is absolutely disgusted with the way things have turned out. Blaming NZ is a total cop-out. The cops are at fault, for sure, but how about the US taking the requisite amount of blame for creating the conditions where their entertainment/copyright assholes are running riot across the globe, and the US government is materially supporting them?

Re:Dear USA

[Chrisq]

And the Commonwealth has slightly more money down the back of the sofa that Europe at the moment.

No its still smaller. Without India it would be a lot smaller

Re:Dear USA

[TheRaven64]

Bombs along Hadrian's wall and the a LOT of rowing...

Re:Dear USA

[Chrisq]

I'm pretty sure the Scottish plan is to somehow join Scandinavia,

I'd be interested to know what the Scandinavians think about this!

Re:Dear USA

[Coisiche]

I'm pretty sure the Scottish plan is to somehow join Scandinavia

You have seen the Swedish women's beach volleyball team, right?

Re:Dear USA

[geekymachoman]

Mr Underbridge. With all due respect, please stop meddling in other people's affairs. I hate to repeat myself, but there's always one like you showing up on each topic like this. And it will be like that for a long long time. When you're imperialistic gov crumbles, new guys will spring up, and in no-time... our children will have the same discussion as we do now.

I understand that your perception of your country is different from perception of outside observer, but when it comes to "your foreign policy", outside observer has more to say then you, because your "foreign policy" affects _us_ more then you. I also reckon that you don't leave your country much, and if you do, you don't go out for long to notice what's really happening, if you did.. you wouldn't write what you just did.

If you want to comment, and propagate your opinions around, please make an effort to inform yourself at least, and by make an effort don't just turn on cnn/whatever, rather do some independent research. If you don't care for that, then please stfu. I don't care about gardening, and I ain't sticking my nose on gardening topics and annoying people there. Get the point ?

And last but not least... _please stop helping us, please_.

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

Just try to remember WHO helped you get your independence.
Otherwise at this rate you'd still be an english colony, and France would have a third of the continental US and Spain/Mexico the rest.

Re:Dear USA

[Richard_at_work]

Thats interesting, considering the heritage of the works at the core of this case - or are we limiting the topic to physical goods only?

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

If the US cuts all of that along with all those wars, abuses and imperialistic actions, yes, do that for whatever price.

Re:Dear USA

[cheesybagel]

Are they the property of Columbia Tristar or Sony Music?

Re:Dear USA

[MrAngryForNoReason]

That's one of the big issues I see with the "first world". We don't actually make the stuff any more that got us to that position in the first place. How long before the rest of the world doesn't need us any more?

This argument pretty much disproves itself. Other countries need countries like the USA because of the point you are making. Manufacturing products for US companies is a big part of the economy in a lot of countries. As countries like China continue to develop their manufacturing industry they will continue to need Western countries to provide a market for their home grown products.

This is how the world economy works. Different countries economies are based on different things and they trade.

Re:Dear USA

[Coisiche]

More seriously, the SNP did hold up the "arc of prosperity" of the Republic of Ireland, Iceland and Norway as the shining examples of how small Atlantic nations could be amazingly prosperous and how much better it would be if Scotland was independent and part of that...

Fast forward a couple of years and Ireland is tanked by being one of the loser economies in the Euro (a currency which basically only works for Germany and while the French might think it works for them too, I think they have a surprise brewing) and Iceland banks got shredded by their exposure to toxic assets forcing the whole nation to the brink.

Which basically just leaves Norway doing well out of the original "arc of prosperity". So the current SNP line is "things would be better if we were like Norway".

Re:Dear USA

[cheesybagel]

Keeps going up but I don't have anything manufactured over there anymore... I used to.

Re:Dear USA

[cheesybagel]

first-world / second-world originally meant US-aligned vs Soviet-aligned countries. The third-world meant unaligned countries.

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

NZ are guilty of bending over and saying "please sir, some more please" to the RIAA/USA megalomaniacs. Spineless sheep (go figure: 4 million people and 16 million sheep).

Re:Dear USA

[rossdee]

In the Geographical sense Oz and NZ are as far away from Europe as you can get (NZ is exactly opposite Spain in fact) but in terms of Intelectual Property they are included in Europe (for example DVD region codes)

Re:Dear USA

[Chrisq]

I'm pretty sure the Scottish plan is to somehow join Scandinavia,

I'd be interested to know what the Scandinavians think about this!

Re:Dear USA

[mrclisdue]

Careful....

http://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/05/29/2353223/twitter-bomb-joke-case-rolls-back-into-uk-courts

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

We created? You guys are the ones that decided to create the Euro to compete with us and failed to take into account the fact that there's more than just one government involved.

In the US we're doing just peachy. There are still issues, but they're resolving themselves, and I'd thank you guys not to flush us down the toilet with you this time. You wouldn't be having these problems if they were just of American doing.

Re:Dear USA

[DarkOx]

The theory the FED operates under is that they are actually hurting Europe doing that. They think it protects the US export market by keeping products affordable for Europeans. To some simplistic extent they are correct.

Don't be fooled into think they are doing you any favors though. Its not about defending American jobs, and they ignoring the consequence to the average Joe with a passbook savings account. This is really about protecting the equity, derivative, and insurances bets made by them member banks.

End the Fed

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

The US produces very little? It's incredibly obvious to tell you're trolling with statements like that.

Actually from my point of view, I'd have to agree with the GP.

I can't think of a single item I own that was actually made in USA. I own plenty of stuff made by US companies, but as far as I'm aware not on US soil.

At one stage I thought my mountain bike was actually made in the US, but then I found a sticker that disproved that (can't remember where it said now)

A brief survey of most stuff I own indicates that most of it came from China, followed by Taiwan and various other Asian countries.

That's one of the big issues I see with the "first world". We don't actually make the stuff any more that got us to that position in the first place. How long before the rest of the world doesn't need us any more?

Posts like this are one of the reasons I rarely visit slashdot anymore. The GP is a contentless one-liner marked +5 insightful. The parent says the USA doesn't make anything, when a quick wikipedia search reveals, "The United States is the world's largest manufacturer, with a 2009 industrial output of US$2.33 trillion. Its manufacturing output is greater than of Germany, France, India, and Brazil combined" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_States

Then else where in the thread, we have crackpots making grand conspiracy theories about the United States, +5 insightful of course. *Sigh* I think this will be my last post on slashdot.

Re:Dear USA

[JWSmythe]

    The US still exports gasoline, diesel, jet fuel, the majority from imported crude oil. We also export "computers and electronics", which the components are provided by overseas firms. For example, if Dell sells a metric fucktonne of computers from the US warehouses, it was an "export", even though it was assembled in a foreign country with foreign parts. Our other major exports are transportation equipment, chemicals, machinery, and agricultural products.

    That ignores the real problem though. The components use to make most of those are manufactured out of country. The US has gone from being an industrial source, to being an industrial middle-man. So, you will find stickers indicating almost everything you buy was manufactured in foreign countries. Quite a bit of the food you eat was grown in foreign countries. The car you drive, or at least the components, came from foreign countries.

    Being an industrial middle-man has benefits for the corporations based here, but for few others. They already know it's cheaper to manufacture overseas. They can have their call centers overseas. Since the US economy is down, they sell overseas. That leaves fewer and fewer jobs in the US, less consumer spending capability in the US, and is drawing us down into the collapse of the US economy.

Re:Dear USA

[ciderbrew]

I've not been able to find the collective debt of the commonwealth. I'm sure Europe can still be proud of the amount it holds.

Re:Dear USA

[Adrian Harvey]

Sorry, the DVD region code for NZ is 4. The UK and Europe is 2 (see wikipedia ). Fortunately enforcing the suppliers use of region locking on DVD players was ruled a breach of our competition legislation (which explicitly makes parallel importing legal) and our copyright act explicitly excludes region locking as a proctection measure See here So almost all DVD players are sold unlocked.

Re:Dear USA

[JWSmythe]

    I thought the US already annexed Canada. Statehood will come later on, when it has a strategic interest. Don't worry, it'll be done properly on paper once we need your fresh water and oil reserves.

Re:Dear USA

[sander]

They are rather positive about this. Why would they not be?

Re:Dear USA

[mwvdlee]

Is there any intrinsic reason why the US and China economies couldn't switch places?

Re:Dear USA

[iserlohn]

Have you thought about the long term implications of the type of enormous trade deficit you have just described?

Re:Dear USA

[sander]

Oh, you mean you are going to stop importing oil?

Re:Dear USA

[Technician]

Who made your CPU chip? Many fabs including ones in the US make the chips, even if it is packaged elsewhere.

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

Could well be Ireland if it's AMD.

Re:Dear USA

[AmiMoJo]

The cops work for the government, which is your elected representation. It is up to you to control them. I'm afraid you must take responsibility.

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

Posting AC because you are right. The difference between US exports and US manufacturing is huge. I'm Aussie and we purport to be a large manufacturer all we sell are processed minerals or sell on other finished products. All the wesf sell well now are semantics.

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

That leaves fewer and fewer jobs in the US, less consumer spending capability in the US, and is drawing us down into the collapse of the US economy.

I think that it is wrong to think of it as a collapse, think more of it as a transition into a low wage manufacturing country.

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RenRILqwhJs

Re:Dear USA

[YeeHaW_Jelte]

Carefull, looking at them in the wrong way can land you sexual harassment charges in Sweden ...

Re:Dear USA

[sulimma]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Trade_Balance_1980_2011.svg

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

"Statistically"?!?

USA was the world's largest manufacturer up to around 2009-2010, and has just been overtaken by China. Each of them produce around 20% of the total world's manufacturing output (40% combined).

How is 1/5th of the total manufacturing output "statistically very little"? Or are you just making up shit about something you have no clue about in the first place?

Re:Dear USA

[lexa1979]

We created?

Yes you (not you as you, but you as your past government) did. You force-spread your culture among us, and it's nothing to do with a single currency. The words are business and finance. But since we thought that going to war to sell LuckyStrike wasn't an option, we failed to comply and now have to re-educate ourselves into human beings, which is though since MTV airs here too...

In the US we're doing just peachy.

yeah, sure... 50 millions people just in your lovely country DO HAVE to just eat peaches, because they can't afford to live like you do... but they're "resolving themsleves": in a few years, they'll be dead, and with a little luck, since they can't afford your very well thought medical system, they won't have children. Easy. http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/data/incpovhlth/2009/pov09fig04.pdf

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

We've been trying to do that for decades. It isn't working.

Re:Dear USA

[AmiMoJo]

When the Dollar is weak I buy more stuff from China. Most of the Chinese merchants seem to deal in USD so their products get cheaper for me.

Re:Dear USA

[Captain.Abrecan]

The US grain belt feeds the entire fucking planet. We also produce a shitload of gasoline, in case no one noticed what we do with that oil. We make tons of shit, it just isn't finished goods.

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

Or use Apple's approach. Do the design in the US, where you have a ready supply of the highest skilled workers in the world,*snip*

Jonathan Ives is British, you know.

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

Because Americans wont work for chinese wages.

Re:Dear USA

[Swampash]

And ninety million possums, possums!

(That works best in a Dame Edna voice.)

Re:Dear USA

[AmiMoJo]

Ireland is still a hell of a lot better off than they were before they joined the EU. Back then they really were the poor man of Europe. In fact they are almost certainly doing better now than they would have been if they had not joined the Euro as well, since every time there has been a global/continental downturn in the past each country has abused its own currency to the detriment of others and made the situation far worse for everyone. That's what most people seem to miss - if the Euro wasn't there the financial crisis would still exist and Ireland would have already gone bust, with dire consequences for the rest of us as well.

Iceland's self-destruction only shows that it isn't a good idea to build your countries wealth entirely on banking, which has little to do with Scotland since most of its income is from energy. If anything it is England that should learn from them.

Re:Dear USA

[zyzko]

I'm pretty sure the Scottish plan is to somehow join Scandinavia

You have seen the Swedish women's beach volleyball team, right?

Beach volley is ruined by know if it is athletic bodies of women you like to see - the standard outfit is no longer tight tops and bikini bottoms but loose shirts and men's shorts. Yes, there actually was a rule which mandated the women to wear tight clothes in beach volley, but it is now dissolved. So no eye candy there, just pure sports - I will leave the speculation to others if this is a good thing or not....

Re:Dear USA

[jonwil]

What is needed is for the people of New Zealand to grow some balls and elect a government that is going to stop kissing the ass of the United States on these kinds of issues.

Then again, the way the NZ people keep electing government after government that sucks up to the US government and to big US corporations, I wonder who is smarter over there, the people or the sheep...

Re:Dear USA

[TFAFalcon]

I'm pretty sure half of Europe didn't want to you stop being isolationist the first time. And your intervention in WW1 probably caused WW2, so you shouldn't feel to proud about having to come back to fix the mess you helped create.

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

...you figure Sony is a U.S. company?

Re:Dear USA

[betterunixthanunix]

I can't think of a single item I own that was actually made in USA. I own plenty of stuff made by US companies, but as far as I'm aware not on US soil.

Well, off the top of my head, here are things I own that were made in the USA:

1. 2 of my rifles
2. Bullets
3. A briar pipe
4. A zippo lighter
5. A pocket knife
6. Fishing gear
7. An NRA-made pen (made from rifle cartridges, of course)

Now, as for my clothes, books, computers, furniture -- the things I use in my day-to-day life (thank God I don't use a rifle in my daily life) -- those things were not made in the USA.

Re:Dear USA

[fvandrog]

*Sigh* I think this will be my last post on slashdot.

Ai, it seems AC has left the building.

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

"(thank God I don't use a rifle in my daily life)"

Curious, given your list of articles!

Re:Dear USA

[queazocotal]

The nasty part - your argument in response to the original comments about 'IP is important too' - somewhat miss the point.
At the moment - for example - Apple is making large amounts of money from stuff produced in China, and managing to extract large amounts of money from that value-chain, into 'US' hands.

However, unless you believe that customers simply will not ever buy products not designed in the USA - at some point Chinese owned companies in China, will start doing development competently enough, and the US arm will be merely a sales organisation.

At this point - the balance of trade gets a lot worse - as the entire profit stays in China.

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

Please leave the rest of the world alone. Thankyou.

Dear Fucknuts:

You do not speak either for NZ nor any other government in the world.
Kindly shut the fuck up, and take the time to educate yourself on History, the World, and International Politics as you are obviously completely ignorant of such affairs.

Thank you,
The rest of the World.

Re:Dear USA

[cheesybagel]

I was being sarcastic.

Re:Dear USA

[TaggartAleslayer]

The Chinese currency is currently, artificially, kept very low. It has been for a very long while. NPR Report from 2006 on Yaun manipulation

If the Yaun were more influenced by the market like the rest of the world, it would be balancing much quicker. The issue has very little to do with what US workers are willing to work for and more to do with what corporations are willing to pay. With the current unemployment rates in the US, you could stock a factory with minimum wage, skilled laborers, without an issue. But that still can't compete on a resource cost level with a stifled Yaun.

Even so, as skilled production work moves to China, wages continue to increase due to labor shortages. NY Times article on the wage and labor issue. It is starting to even out, and we'll likely see more jobs returning to US shores as an equilibrium as reached.

Re:Dear USA

[D'Sphitz]

*Sigh* I think this will be my last post on slashdot.

Thanks for letting us know, I'm sure we would have been worried if you had just disappeared without warning.

Re:Dear USA

[FishTankX]

Aren't alot of the chips in the computers we use fabbed in the USA, atleast? Big ticket items, for sure. How about cars? The united states manufactures crap tons of cars. Harley's are probably made in the USA, too. By necessity, you're house was made in the USA. All Boeing jets are made in the USA, but it's not practical to own them. While probably not 'manufactured' i'm willing to say that a good deal of the food you eat was probably processed in the USA just due to logistical reasons, and packaged here.

I've heard that very little of total spending of the american consumer actually goes to chinese goods manufacturing costs.

Re:Dear USA

[Isaac Remuant]

Where do you live?

No matter what your answer is, I'm pretty sure I'll be able to lay the blame on you for not holding authorities accountable.

The only way to avoid this argument is for you to claim you agree with everything the authorities do. In that case, I'd realize the conversation is pointless.

Re:Dear USA

[Isaac Remuant]

Because the whole world is either European or American. Funny considering the subject deals with New Zealand.

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

The cops work for the government, which is your elected representation. It is up to you to control them. I'm afraid you must take responsibility.

No. Both asking for the corruption and the willingness to be corrupt are prerequisites for the action to occur. Both parties are at fault and both should be punished.

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

Iceland banks got shredded by their exposure to toxic assets forcing the whole nation to the brink

And they went there, then came back, and are doing pretty well right now. Meanwhile every other nation in Europe that stabbed themselves in the heart to save their banks is being dragged kicking and screaming to the brink. It remains to be seen whether they'll make it back.

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

Just try to remember WHO helped you get your independence.
Otherwise at this rate you'd still be an english colony, and France would have a third of the continental US and Spain/Mexico the rest.

Some would say WWI and WWII more than made up for the help we PAID for. And I'll note that France sat on their asses for a good bit of time- they didn't help us out of charity or goodwill. They helped us because "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" and they saw the value in having the might of the British Empire reduced, and in having the gratitude of a new nation with some pretty vast natural resources at their disposal. And judging by WWI and WWII, they made the right decision.

I'm not going to take the assholish position of the GP, however. Most people in the US are frankly getting tired of the rest of the world's massive case of bipolar disorder. One minute we're the evil assholes who you never want to see or hear from again, the next minute we're horrible, arrogant fucks for not using our power to achieve ends YOU desire. We're evil expansionist imperialists, but when China invades Tibet or Russia invades Chechnya suddenly those are "internal conflicts". Well by that definition we ought to be able to invade Mexico and Panama can call it an "internal conflict".

Too many people on both "sides" are being hoodwinked by their government and media organizations. Too many people fail to understand that many countries are happy to oppose US policy in public and happily support it in private. Too many people fail to realize that "US Policy" is not dictated solely by the US, but is heavily influenced by our allies and trade partners.

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless your 'alot" actually means a handful, that statement is incorrect. The highest portions of chips in your PC are memory chips and they are made in the Far East these days.

There are very few fabs out there. Most of the "top" IC manufacturers (outside of Intel) use contract manufacturers such as TSMC, UMC etc. for their productions. Some of the analog companies such as Analog Devices, Linear Tech, and some TI parts etc do have their only fab which handles larger geometries for analog circuits.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundry_model

Out of the top 5, only one of them (Globalfoundries) is in the US. The rest are Taiwan, China and Korea.

Re:Dear USA

[slashmydots]

Please leave the rest of the world alone. Thank you.

Maybe someone should go visit his wikipedia page. He's broken at least a dozen laws, started a ton of crooked businesses like a hedge fund with no license, was denied a land purchase in another country on the grounds that he's an asshole, and is generally an awful, awful person that's especially an unbearable asshole to tech people. Seriously, go read it. Oh and he was, until January of this year, the #1 MW3 player in the world. I'm sure he wasn't cheating. Definitely doesn't seem like the type at all Every single thing he does is some crooked bullshit business venture and that asshole really needs to get arrested.

What was your defense again? You don't like the US? Whine whine whine.

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

My Honda was made in Alabama.
Dumbass

Re:Dear USA

[mcgrew]

Manufacturing in the US is far from dead.

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

This is why I don't like the capitalist economic model. Because of sentences like these: "It is starting to even out, and we'll likely see more jobs returning to US shores as an equilibrium as reached."

People talk about the economy as if it were natural phenomena. We'll likely see? Equilibrium? I think we must move away from the invisible hand theory and realize that it's not magic that controls the market, but people. Also, the market or the economy don't have wills of their own and are certainly not natural phenomena. They are human inventions, subject to human actions. With this in mind, we can move towards a system where imbalances won't happen; where we will not be subject to the "market's will", where our homes will not be in danger when the market "acts up".

People's "control" of the market has been reduced to "wait for the equilibrium" and "wait, it will get better". We wait for those on the top to make the right decisions, and when they don't we don't do anything but sit around and wait for them to make right decisions. Have we not learned by now what those who have taken dominion over us want? They do not want people's lives to be better, they want their own lives to be even better than they are now.

Greed is prevalent in the world, and as long as its prevalent in the market we will not see the economic conditions get better.

I just realized something: For the wealth to "trickle down" it needs to overflow whatever container it is being poured into. The problem we have now is that those with first dibs keep using a bigger container.

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

We're evil expansionist imperialists, but when China invades Tibet or Russia invades Chechnya suddenly those are "internal conflicts". Well by that definition we ought to be able to invade Mexico and Panama again can call it an "internal conflict"

FTFU

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

It's called "Yuan".

Re:Dear USA

[X0563511]

Fine then. We'll stop, and you can design everything yourself or let China "handle" that.

Re:Dear USA

[wvmarle]

Well of course. Pretty much all Chinese foreign trade is settled in USD. It is the most used currency for settling trade to begin with: lots of international trade is settled in USD. EUR is a distant second. Lots of trade with Europe is also settled in USD.

Add to that the fact that the yuan is not freely convertible (this means you as US importer can not get the yuan to pay for your imports - you can only exchange 30,000 yuan, about 4,700 USD, a day without special permission), and that by using USD it's getting easier for the manufacturers to keep their profits out of China. This to avoid tax, and to give more investment opportunities.

Re:Dear USA

[Weatherlawyer]

>the US.... doesn't employ anyone any more because it's more cost effective to pay an engineer here > to design an automated shop that employs 10 people instead of 500.

And how many of those 10 would be employed if speaking to a bunch of just as or even much more amenable and gifted Asians was possible for the bankers running the company?

Re:Dear USA

[thaiceman]

Unfortunately the US rarely produces its own products these days, the most we can say that we do is that we engineer our own stuff and outsource the production and fabrication to another country China, Japan, S. Korea, Ect, Ect. Even then most of the products are re-engineered there to fit a certain type of production method or time table..

The ultra short version is we send shit overseas because its cheaper and ultimately more cost effective all while costing us here in the long run.

Re:Dear USA

[Weatherlawyer]

I'm pretty sure the Scottish plan is to somehow join Scandinavia

You have seen the Swedish women's beach volleyball team, right?

I haven't.

Do they fight a lot, have unkempt beards, heavy woollen dresses and jackets that smell of urine when new then malt whisky when mature?

Meanwhile back at the end of the world:

Its nice to hear a bit of sense in this soap opera.

I don't care if he is guilty or not. I hope he gets off Scott free.

Re:Dear USA

[mcgrew]

And "gay" originally meant "happy and carefree". Language evolves.

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

"Well, off the top of my head, here are things I own that were made in the USA:

2 of my rifles
Bullets
A briar pipe
A zippo lighter
A pocket knife
Fishing gear
An NRA-made pen (made from rifle cartridges, of course)"

No survival bunker? I guess you'll live from 'services', meaning cutting each other's hair.

Re:Dear USA

[Khyber]

Why haven't the citizens of New Zealand simply started a civil war to end this bullshit?

It's your responsibility to kick us out of your home. If you can't defend your territory, it will be usurped and taken over.

Re:Dear USA

[JackieBrown]

Your post fails the mention the reason that the "capitalist economic model" is failing to reach equilibrium quickly.

Part of it is because of greed as you mentioned. However, The reason that companies are able to operate this way (and need to operate this way to compete) is due to the Chinese government having almost complete control over their economic model and artificially keeping rates low in their country.

Re:Dear USA

[KingMotley]

You do understand from YOUR graph that the poverty rate has dropped from 23% to 14%. I will gladly accept that trend and hope it continues for the forseeable future.

Re:Dear USA

[KingMotley]

The debt/GDP ratio of both the US and the euro countries sits at 86%. It's hardly "already way higher than most of Europe's". They are exactly the same, and the current US debt is DOWN from it's high point in the 1940's, about 20% lower. Hardly a terrible place to be.

Re:Dear USA

[FilmedInNoir]

I for one will not tolerate these terrorist actions from a rogue state. I'm going to write a strongly worded letter to the UN.

Re:Dear USA

[hendridm]

+1 Awesome

Re:Dear USA

[nedlohs]

And what exactly would be different from the perspective of Chinese manufacturers if everything they exported to the US was instead taken by the Chinese Government who paid them in freshly printed yuans exactly what they currently get from their American buyers?

It's produce currency devaluation, but the Chinese government already does that to balance those the dollars being sold for yuan to pay for those exports currently - so that's quite possibly a wash.

They wouldn't have those dollars flowing in with which to import the raw materials - then again they'd have all the stuff they made with it so they can recycle (or just pretend to make things in the first place).

Re:Dear USA

[TaggartAleslayer]

Calm down, chief. Resource supply and demand is driving up wages in China, making America a viable alternative for cheap, skilled labor again. There's no wishing or waiting for a natural phenomenon implied there, simply an observed fact as it pertains to the current situation.

I'm not sure how you linked that statement to a support of trickle-down economics, the invisible hand, or some belief that the market is controlled by magic, as I implied nothing of the sort. I simply stated my opinion that skilled laborer positions will likely begin to shift back to the US once wages reach a competitive level in China. None of that is an endorsement of any economic system or model, just my observations based upon what is happening in the world around us.

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

should be tagged Flamebait not insightful.
standards are really slipping if "usa sucks!" is what passes for insightful these days.

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not dead yet!

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

When the WEIGHTED elections are rigged to high hell it is really hard to keep who IS DECIDED to represent you under control.

Re:Dear USA

[Uniquitous]

Because Americans wont work for chinese wages.

Yet. But they're working on it.

Re:Dear USA

[Uniquitous]

According to this they're pretty much cool with it. http://satwcomic.com/new-nordic

Re:Dear USA

[Uniquitous]

You force-spread your culture among us

Funny, I don't remember using fire and the sword to make the rest of the world gobble up our pop-culture drek.

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

What is needed is for the people of the USA to grow some balls and elect a government that is going to stop catering only to big business.

FTFY. That would solve infinitely more problems than New Zealand not catering to the USA.

Re:Dear USA

[DinDaddy]

Our US "elected representation" are the ones who pressured theirs into this idiotic mess, so that responsibility is surely shared.

Re:Dear USA

[houghi]

Fine then. We'll stop, and you can design everything yourself or let China "handle" that.

Not sure if it is a treat or a promise.

Re:Dear USA

[ewibble]

I think the answer is yes physical goods only since the grandparent stated

intangible imaginary goods in exchange (since increasingly they produce very little.)

Re:Dear USA

[CCarrot]

Fine then. We'll stop, and you can design everything yourself or let China "handle" that.

Not sure if it is a treat or a promise.

Maybe a promise of a treat, if we're good? :)

Re:Dear USA

[CCarrot]

I'm pretty sure the Scottish plan is to somehow join Scandinavia,

I'd be interested to know what the Scandinavians think about this!

...yay haggis?

(which is delicious, btw)

Re:Dear USA

[ewibble]

You do understand that, the rate is basically flat for 39 years in that graph so the trend is flat. Doesn't mean it is getting worse but 14% seems high. and its not getting better.

for a comparison with other countries I found:
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/346943/20120530/childhood-poverty-u-s-second-highest-rate.htm

Re:Dear USA

[Fjandr]

The US makes very little in the way of consumer goods. However, that is balanced by the fact they they produced some of the largest, most complex technical machinery made anywhere in the world.

I'm not a fan of off-shoring, but to say the US produces very little is disingenuous at best.

Re:Dear USA

[Fjandr]

You'll be stone dead in a moment.

Re:Dear USA

[Mistakill]

New Zealand is responsible for what they do in their own backyard with their own police forces. If they want to surrender their sovereignty to a bunch of RIAA/MPAA hacks who have paid off the right people, that's their prerogative. It's obvious that they've realized the mistake and are trying to make things right, but in the end it's NZ that screwed up here.

As a New Zealander, Id rather we didn't tbh...

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear rest of the world.

Hey, stfu. You all knew the deals when they got made. You took the 'aid' and the favorable trade rules. You all got something and you were TOLD that eventually you'd be asked for a favor you can not refuse. Well that day is today! You're our bitch and you'd better behave and act correctly or else you little bastard.

We're still a world power and can make your country suffer if you don't do as you're told. Don't you fucking forget it either.

Now i believe the riaa and mpaa have a few words they'd like to say to you as well... You play nice if you know whats good for you.

Re:Dear USA

[Trogre]

Panasonic players are region locked in NZ. However a quick email to their NZ office and they will tell you where you can get it unlocked at no charge. It usually involved a special remote with a flash code.

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

I didn't vote for John Key, so I take zero responsibility. I doubt this would have occurred under a Labour government.
John Key is a major suck-up when it comes to the US. Another example; Obama announces he supports gay marriage, and the next day John Key does the same. He's a smarmy fuck who ignores the wishes of the people of NZ, and isn't above changing the laws to get what he wants.

Re:Dear USA

[baileydau]

Aren't alot of the chips in the computers we use fabbed in the USA, atleast? Big ticket items, for sure. How about cars? The united states manufactures crap tons of cars. Harley's are probably made in the USA, too. By necessity, you're house was made in the USA. All Boeing jets are made in the USA, but it's not practical to own them. While probably not 'manufactured' i'm willing to say that a good deal of the food you eat was probably processed in the USA just due to logistical reasons, and packaged here.

I've heard that very little of total spending of the american consumer actually goes to chinese goods manufacturing costs.

Your entire premise is wrong.

You are assuming I'm from the USA ...

My car isn't from there. Some of the components in my previous one may have been, but it was locally designed / built.
My house certainly isn't from there (logistics would be a nightmare on that one ...)
The food I eat certainly doesn't come from there (I do very occasionally drink Californian wine though)
Some of the electrical components in the things I own may well have come from there. But the item itself invariably comes from somewhere else.
I'm pretty sure the fuel here isn't sourced from the US (well very little anyway)

Like I say. *I* don't personally own many if any items produced in the USA.

YMMV

Re:Dear USA

[metrix007]

They don't belong to the Queen of England though.

Re:Dear USA

[quadrox]

It doesn't matter what he did or didn't do in the past. What matters is whether legal procedure is being followed, and this case stinks to high heaven when it comes to legal procedure. If we stop following legal procedure for the bad guys, it's only a matter of time before we drop it completely.

Re:Dear USA

[Cimexus]

Think we're talking here about the state of their respective economies, particularly sovereign debt, rather than merely the size of their economies. And you can of course throw Canada in with that lot too.

Re:Dear USA

[Cimexus]

Bzzt. NZ (and Australia) are region 4 for DVDs. Europe is region 2.

Not that it matters anyway since DVD players sold in Australia are all region-free out of the box (by law) anyway. Not sure about the situation in NZ but it's probably similar.

Re:Dear USA

[ciderbrew]

How very dare you and so close to the Diamond Jubilee. :)

Re:Dear USA

[FishTankX]

My mistake, and apologies. In that case, I guess you could say American manufacturing is largely centered around heavy equipment, highly engineered electronic components, aerospace, metals (steel and the like, of which America still has a good chunk of world manufacture) and generally things that wouldn't have a sticker on them. I know that caterpillar has almost half of it's manufacturing plants still in the USA. Things like that.

Generally speaking assembly isn't a big money maker and I imagine alot of countries try to move away from that as quickly as possible. Owning the design makes you much more money than fabbing the parts, which is what i'd imagine the main reason for our manufacturing decline is.

That being said, the western world is still a powerhouse of design and cutting edge technology. Even if third world nations become manufacturing powerhouses, they're still going to need stuff to manufacture, sure China maybe a giant in manufacturing but alot of the big ticket stuff they put into the higher quality products they build are still designed over here, and that's where a lion's share of the money is, which is why the first world hasn't gone bankrupt due to horribly expensive labor yet. We earn our keep on the global scale, designing stuff people still need, and want to buy.

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

Want American made goods? Go to a GUN store. We make guns, lots of guns. We also make bombs, military weapons and anything war-related.

Re:Dear USA

[mgcarley]

Irrespective of the currency's strength or weakness, Chinese wages have gone up by about 500% in that same time period..

An interesting programme for you to watch would be "The Town Taking on China" http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01hn6l8 which is about a company in the UK which does an experiment to see whether continuing to have a factory in China (after all of the hassles and expenditures involved in doing that) is still as economically beneficial as it was several years ago.

For those who don't feel like watching said programme, the outcome of the experiment is "not really" (there is some minute cost saving in favour of the Chinese factory, but it's not significant) and they end up shifting all the jobs back to the UK.

Re:Dear USA

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't worry, women have a thing about wanting to look pretty no matter what they do. They will wear tight stuff anyway, cuz they know we're looking.

Re:Dear USA

[mgcarley]

Wrong country. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dame_Edna_Everage

Re:Dear USA

[mgcarley]

As it is now, definitely the sheep. NOBODY that I know voted for National. I certainly didn't. They can't even do basic maths or get statistics right (I've been arguing with my local National MP about the bad maths on his campaign brochures for over 2 years).

Interestingly, since the last election, those who are able have moved out of New Zealand - young people (in particular) are fleeing in droves. Including myself, of course, but I fled before it became the trend ;)

Re:Dear USA

[mgcarley]

Why haven't the citizens of New Zealand simply started a civil war to end this bullshit?

It's your responsibility to kick us out of your home. If you can't defend your territory, it will be usurped and taken over.

Maybe that will be what is needed to get people to wake up and demand fresh elections.

Didn't see that one coming...

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh goody, a THINKING judge has got the rubber-stamping MPAA/RIAA bribed USA attorneys by the nuts!

Re:Didn't see that one coming...

[Opportunist]

But does it have to be in behalf of Kimmy? Of all the poor bastards that got into the crosshairs of the US copyright mafia? I really start to wonder if that guy just has too much luck or whether something else is going on.

Re:Didn't see that one coming...

[Anonymous Coward]

The easiest way to get the law working for you is to be rich. The MPAA is rich. Kim Jong Dotcom is rich. Quite the conundrum.

Re:Didn't see that one coming...

[Anonymous Coward]

He's got enough money to fight it, most poor suckers get bent over a barrel. They thought megaupload would be a soft target but he has the money for his lawyers to argue due process.

Re:Didn't see that one coming...

[Kalriath]

Only if he wins. All of his money was seized by the New Zealand, Dutch, British, Hong Kong, and American governments. He's actually poor.

Re:Didn't see that one coming...

[Opportunist]

Last thing I heard is that part of his money was returned to him.

Besides, I somehow doubt that all of his money has been seized. Every halfway decent crook can squirrel some money away from the feds, I highly doubt that of all the crooks he couldn't.

Re:Didn't see that one coming...

[lightknight]

How much would you wager that the US will tell him that they will return the funds, but he needs to fly to the US to pick them up in person? ;-)

Re:Didn't see that one coming...

[wvmarle]

His assets are frozen, not seized. It's still his, but he can't touch it.

Wow

[Scoldog]

This is going to be interesting. Considering how the US has been handling these file sharing cases, do you think they would willingly hand over the evidence (anyone know what the evidence is exactly?) or not hand it over, but keep making noise about it being illegal (maybe throw out the IP argument).

As cynical as I am, I reckon they would hand it over. The US lawmakers would be frothing at the bit to get him to the States, and I doubt they'd try and stuff it up.

Re:Wow

[mwvdlee]

As I understand it, the US basically has two options.
1. Hand over the evidence and possibly getting him extradited.
2. Not hand over the evidence and not getting him extradited.
So if they want to continue, they only have one option left.

Re:Wow

[Weatherlawyer]

I wonder if he has actually got copies of his stuff hidden away somewhere. Whatever; he has the ability to make a crust. What makes anyone on here thing he is any different from the so called "respectable" rich bastards?

docs need to prove conspiracy..

[gl4ss]

docs need to prove conspiracy for extradition.

however, the defense would like it's hand on the evidence so they can show the police fucked up(afaik the computers are supposed to have security cam footage from the raid).

this is also a test if the fbi/etc can even hand over the evidence(I suppose they should have also had something prior to the bust to prove the conspiracy)...

Re:docs need to prove conspiracy..

[Anonymous Coward]

INAL but from what I've been reading it's more complex then that, the conspiracy/ racketeering and money laundering charges only stick if they can show criminal copyright infringement. Problem is copyright infringement is civil issue in NZ AND they need to show probable success of conviction for crimes with at least a 5 year jail term in NZ before extradition can even go ahead.

Conspiracy to commit a crime carries a maximum penalty of 5 years so qualifies, but they need to show both likely hood of conspiracy and the original crime.

A laymans example would be: I think you and your friend conspired to cheat on a test. I may have emails showing you conspired but I can't just have you extradited by showing conspiracy, I have to convince a judge that cheating on a test is a criminal offence first. A much taller order.

Also remember that the judge has already stated his displeasure with the failure to follow due process in the initial arrest and has required the crown to guarantee to cover costs and lost income if kim dotcom is not found guilty.

-Kactus

Re:docs need to prove conspiracy..

[ciderbrew]

I like reading about a decent Judge. It's like hope for the world.

Re:docs need to prove conspiracy..

[Anonymous Coward]

Also remember that the judge has already stated his displeasure with the failure to follow due process in the initial arrest and has required the crown to guarantee to cover costs and lost income if kim dotcom is not found guilty.

-Kactus

The crown? That is, the NZ government, not the US one? Brilliant.

- A Kiwi (albeit expatriate)

Re:docs need to prove conspiracy..

[Weatherlawyer]

Also the judge has already stated his displeasure with the failure to follow due process in the initial arrest and has required the crown to guarantee to cover costs and lost income if Mr Dotcom is not found guilty.

There is nothing like giving the prosecution a good motive to succeed, is there?

Would this quasi bribe count towards an unfair trial?

Take note

[distilate]

If this happened in Australia Kim would altready be in US custardy.

NZ purposly made legal mistakes and are now intentionally hindering the US!

Re:Take note

[RzTen1]

NZ purposly made legal mistakes and are now intentionally hindering the US!

Wouldn't that also imply that they purposely killed megaupload? What would they gain from that?

Re:Take note

[QQBoss]

If this happened in Australia Kim would altready be in US custardy.

NZ purposly made legal mistakes and are now intentionally hindering the US!

It is distinctly possible that the USA would jail Kim for as long as they could, but it is highly unlikely they would ever attempt to turn him into a creme brulee.

Re:Take note

[mwvdlee]

It's quite arrogant to think that following local laws is somehow the same as "intentionally hindering".
US laws stop at the US border.

Re:Take note

[Anonymous Coward]

If this happened in Australia Kim would altready be in US custardy.

NZ purposly made legal mistakes and are now intentionally hindering the US!

It is distinctly possible that the USA would jail Kim for as long as they could, but it is highly unlikely they would ever attempt to turn him into a creme brulee.

Have you seen the pictures? The dude is 90% custard already.

Re:Take note

[Anonymous Coward]

It's quite arrogant to think that following local laws is somehow the same as "intentionally hindering". US laws stop at the US border.

http://www.economist.com/node/21540270, aren't you?

Re:Take note

[Anonymous Coward]

It's "crème brûlée".

Protip: if you're going to make fun of someone's typos, make sure you know how to write things too.

Re:Take note

[QQBoss]

I not only know how to spell it, I know how to say it and even prepare it for the restaurant I used to own. But for the accents, 5 years spent off and on in France was enough to make me realize that je ne donne pas une merde. Was that spelled well enough for you?

Protip: Some things are just worth laughing about in good fun.

Wait, NOW!?!?

[MrDoh!]

The NZ authorities didn't have this information before? They've destroyed a company, cost the 'innocent until proven guilty' person great harm, and NZ hasn't even seen the evidence yet to allow the raid? Good grief.

Re:Wait, NOW!?!?

[Captain Hook]

The NZ authorities didn't have this information before?

They aren't saying they haven't seen enough evidence to say Dotcom is guilty of a crime, they are saying that he has a right to defend himself against extradition and that defense needs to be able to review evidence for and against that charge.

Having said that, I think NZ sleep walked into a political quagmire which they would be very happy to get out of with the least amount of embarrassment. It would be very useful for them to find a reason not to extradite Dotcom because then they could say they followed the International Treaties with the US that they had to but their own courts also protected someone from illegal extradition.

Re:Wait, NOW!?!?

[BlueStrat]

The NZ authorities didn't have this information before? They've destroyed a company, cost the 'innocent until proven guilty' person great harm, and NZ hasn't even seen the evidence yet to allow the raid? Good grief.

See, you weren't there for "the call".

US DoJ: OK, this Dotcom guy has to be raided.

NZ official: But you haven't even presented us any evidence against him whatsoever!

US DoJ: Speaking of evidence, did you know that US SIGINT is the best on the planet? Did you know we have recordings/copies of all the emails, phone calls, and other electronic data, including photos and videos, sent and received by all the top NZ politicians and government officials? In fact I remember seeing something with your name on it concerning a string of calls to a "transvestite escort service", I think it was?

NZ official: What time do you want us to hit the bastard?

Strat

Re:Wait, NOW!?!?

[Riceballsan]

I highly doubt NZ acted with 0 evidence, there are obviously 2 different categories of evidence. The evidence that lead to the raid, and the evidence from the raid. No different than say a drug bust, prior to a drug bust the police would have video, etc... showing things being trafficed into and out of the place in question. After the bust they would have say, a warehouse full of drugs, documents detailing the suppliers/customers etc... Both would be used in the case against the person, the first is enough for arrest, and in theory the 2nd should be enough for conviction. I'm pretty sure allowing the raid meant NZ had the equivelant of the former, the latter is certainly needed in order to secure a conviction, and both should be reviewed by the defendant if he is to have a fair trial.

Re:Wait, NOW!?!?

[Zocalo]

This would be information seized during the raid, so no, the NZ authorities obviously didn't get to see it before approving the raid. As far as I am aware, a fair trial in the US, and presumably NZ, requires that the defence team have access to all of the data gathered by the prosecution so there's a potential for this to backfire on the US big time. By all accounts Kim seems to be something of a scumbag, but so far, in this matter at least, he is still innocent until proven guilty; since there are growing grounds for a mistrial due to withholding evidence it's entirely possible that the NZ judge could react to further shenanigans by simply throwing the case out and denying extradition. That would leave Kim unable to travel to the US or certain other countries with favourable extradition treaties, but given some of the alternatives I doubt he'd be complaining too much.

Re:Wait, NOW!?!?

[gl4ss]

apparently nz authorities didn't get to see any evidence before the raid either and fucked up handing over the warrant to megaupload too so they(mu) could have asked for it. it seems from the reports that usa authorities before the raid made up kim look like a financial conspirator, something much severe in legal terms than copyright infringement. the nz authorities went with just fbi agents word on the case and are now starting to hopefully pay the price(and so fbi/nz relations too).

(too bad usa is wasting more resources on this than actual financial conspirators)

Re:Wait, NOW!?!?

[gl4ss]

well, if you count going purely on fbi agents word then they didn't act with zero evidence. if they had gone with something more substantial the raid wouldn't have needed to be in such a hurry and could have gone through the proper procedure - but as it is the warrant could probably have been fought against legally - had they been given the chance.

obviously the nz authorities assumed that fbi wouldn't be bullshitting so badly but they were, full knowing that the actual suspected crime wasn't enough for extradition even.

and the fbi agents thought they could get kim to settle "for less jailtime" regardless of the actual crime since that's the standard in usa - and now they're in trouble because they would need to come up with some real evidence to show that it's actually a criminal case that should be tried in usa.

Re:Wait, NOW!?!?

[X.25]

They aren't saying they haven't seen enough evidence to say Dotcom is guilty of a crime, they are saying that he has a right to defend himself against extradition and that defense needs to be able to review evidence for and against that charge.

Various news outlets in NZ tried to talk to just about everyone (PM, Crown, etc) and find out whether FBI presented evidence (and what evidence was that) before raid was ordered, who exactly authorized the raid, negotiated with FBI, etc.

Everyone refused to talk to media about these issue. As if they're not public servants paid by taxpayers' money, but working in a private company and can decline to comment.

In short - noone (except police, I guess) knows what evidence NZ police has seen before the raid. They might have not seen any evidence, for all we know.

Re:Wait, NOW!?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Department of Hollywood Security said it's on a need-to-know-basis, and they do not need to know to raid.

Re:Wait, NOW!?!?

[mwvdlee]

Wouldn't be the first time if the US lied in order to get the international community to support them.

Re:Wait, NOW!?!?

[lightknight]

Nonsense. There is plenty of evidence...in the sense that there was plenty of evidence of WMDs in Iraq before the US invaded. It's just...slightly manufactured.

Re:Wait, NOW!?!?

[Swampash]

I highly doubt NZ acted with 0 evidence

You're obviously not familiar with the NZ Police.

Re:Wait, NOW!?!?

[Hatta]

By all accounts Kim seems to be something of a scumbag

But far less so than those scumbags involved in his arrest.

Re:Wait, NOW!?!?

[jrumney]

In fact I remember seeing something with your name on it concerning a string of calls to a "transvestite escort service", I think it was?

Give the guy a break. After all those parliamentary sessions sitting across the house from Geogina Beyer, a man does get a little curious.

Re:Wait, NOW!?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

The NZ authorities didn't have this information before? They've destroyed a company, cost the 'innocent until proven guilty' person great harm, and NZ hasn't even seen the evidence yet to allow the raid? Good grief.

See, you weren't there for "the call".

US DoJ: OK, this Dotcom guy has to be raided.

NZ official: But you haven't even presented us any evidence against him whatsoever!

US DoJ: Speaking of evidence, did you know that US SIGINT is the best on the planet? Did you know we have recordings/copies of all the emails, phone calls, and other electronic data, including photos and videos, sent and received by all the top NZ politicians and government officials? In fact I remember seeing something with your name on it concerning a string of calls to a "transvestite escort service", I think it was?

NZ official: What time do you want us to hit the bastard?

Strat

The former paragraph was labeled "Funny"...

Nope, it's not funny ...it is Insightfull...

Re:Wait, NOW!?!?

[Bazar]

NZ authorities have not destroyed a company.
The running operations were halted by US enforcement on US soil.

All NZ was involved with, was arresting Kim Docom, and freezing his personal NZ assets.
Even if our police force told the US to sod off, the US would still have seized the servers, and his company bank accounts, and the company would of faced all the problems that have halted its business. The only difference is that Dotcom would be free to travel and make business arrangements as he saw fit, with his personal finances located in NZ

Re:Wait, NOW!?!?

[Cajun Hell]

By all accounts Kim seems to be something of a scumbag

By all accounts prior to the raid he seemed like a scumbag.

Once the raid happened and evidence was gathered, both governments' actions since then have suggested that they think he is innocent, or else they wouldn't be doing everything they can do to keep a trial from happening. The governments are shocked and disappointed by evidence of lack-of-crimes they gathered. If they gathered evidence he was actually guilty of what they previously said he had done, they wouldn't have repeatedly tripped over themselves again and again to guarantee the guy is going to walk.

By current accounts, he's probably not a scumbag. To everyone's surprise.

I'm not talking about innocent-until-proven-guilty principles or anything like that; I'm talking about making inferences about secret evidence by looking at the behavior of the people who have that evidence.

Re:Wait, NOW!?!?

[Sardaukar86]

I highly doubt NZ acted with 0 evidence

You're obviously not familiar with the NZ Police.

God I wish you were joking. The truth is our police force may very well be the most corrupt in the world.. then again they might be perfect saints.

We'll never know because to the best of my knowledge we don't report corruption like other countries do. Sickening, really.

No shit

[oldhack]

Kiwi judge tell the US government: "Hand it over, mofo, or else"

The US gov't: Go ahead, punk, make my day.

Re:No shit

[Rakshasa-sensei]

I hear judges the world over are very receptive to being told to fuck off. It makes them warm and fuzzy inside.

Re:No shit

[sander]

Yeah, and what NZ would do in reply to that would simply free Dotcom and his assets, and the assets everywhere else that were hold would be freed on short order too, as the case just totally collapsed. And US government would have a pie on its face.

So I think its rather unlikely they will go that route.

Re:No shit

[mwvdlee]

Wellfare: "Can you proof you're actually without a job? Otherwise I can't give you any wellfare".
Bum: "Go ahead, punk, make my day."

Victory for this battle is to MPAA

[rgbe]

Regardless if the US produce evidence or not. The Megaupload saga can be considered a success by the US authorities, MPAA, etc. Because they have destroyed Megaupload and all alternate providers like Megaupload are shaking in their pants. They have one this battle. But the war rages.

Re:Victory for this battle is to MPAA

[Anonymous Coward]

Regardless if the US produce evidence or not. The Megaupload saga can be considered a success by the US authorities, MPAA, etc. Because they have destroyed Megaupload and all alternate providers like Megaupload are shaking in their pants. They have one this battle. But the war rages.

But what if they rise again? And become the biggest? Doesn't sound sound like a win, but a big fail. This means the mpaa can be beaten at their own game.

Re:Victory for this battle is to MPAA

[xenobyte]

Actually - as this thing is going it is more than likely that the US will loose and fail to get any extradition or other conviction.

Remember, everything hinges on thumped-up charge of conspiracy to commit copyright infringement which is ludicrous because MegaUpload did not sell access to the illegal stuff, nor did they ask or otherwise entice the pirates to use their services. They were just one of many cloud storage and sharing service providers that both pirates and everybody else used. You paid for longer storage time, more storage space and more bandwidth to access/download. Access was free otherwise, which means that downloaders didn't pay for access but paid for ease of access.

Oh, and when the US loses this case, I can't wait for the counter-suit for damages. I would laugh my pants off when the US government is ordered to cover the damages incurred during this farce of a trial. I hope Kim Dotcom takes them to the cleaners and take everything to the max. Get them to pay so obscene amounts that heads will have to roll and the collaboration with the copyright MAFIAA is dropped like a hot potato.

Re:Victory for this battle is to MPAA

[Anonymous Coward]

If he wins then whats to say he won't start a megaupload.co.nz and all those alternative providers moving to New Zealand?

Re:Victory for this battle is to MPAA

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless of course Kim wins, fucks them up and gets Megaupload back online. Then it'll just be another case of The Pirate Bay but for the first time (?) with a file locker.

If there is pretty much no evidence anywhere, they are going to get smashed so hard over this.
Nothing will happen, admittedly, because the law in the good ol' US of A is corrupt as high hell. Satan would be proud.

Re:Victory for this battle is to MPAA

[Anonymous Coward]

one

loose

Gotta love International Engrish...

Re:Victory for this battle is to MPAA

[Anonymous Coward]

They have one this battle.

"One"? Seriously?

What is going wrong with this site's constituency?

Re:Victory for this battle is to MPAA

[Anonymous Coward]

There are a few bullet points in the US case that are against DotCom (I don't juge their actuel merit or relevance, I'm no lawyer, but they were raised when the raid occured).

* there are internal emails about content they knew was pirated (like "hey, I want to see a movie, what's hot ?" "well every one is getting this cam version of this blockbuster movie that was just uploaded").
* they didn't really do due diligence when removing infringing content. The same (infringing) content could have multiple links to it. When a content owner reported a link, they remove just the link, not the infringing content.

Those 2 points are somewhat relevant to a "safe harbour" defense for content hosts because you are supposed to remove content ASAP whenever you are aware of one. The 1st point is about content the employees are aware of. And the 2nd point is about knowing that the content is infringing, whatever link is used to retrieve it.

Re:Victory for this battle is to MPAA

[cardpuncher]

alternate providers ... are shaking in their pants

I think that proves that enough porn has already been downloaded for their further services to be unnecessary.

Re:Victory for this battle is to MPAA

[mwvdlee]

If Megaupload wins and starts again, US will have the problem of having to accuse somebody of the same crime twice.
Megaupload has seen their opponents hand, and knows how to play their cards the second time round.
The US government will have to find new (and increasingly far fetched) legal strategies.

Re:Victory for this battle is to MPAA

[Anonymous Coward]

... Get them to pay so obscene amounts that ...

You've been watching too much US TV. Punitive damages are rare in most countries, not that it means anything if NZ awards damages. The USA, makes a point of being under nobody's jurisdiction and will tell any court ruling against them to fuck off. This probably leaves the NZ government liable for damages. And of course, NZ has to honour their unilateral treaty giving the USA another chance to turn NZ cops into the MPAA's corporate police.

Re:Victory for this battle is to MPAA

[Anonymous Coward]

And how exactly will NZ force the US to pay for anything? It is much more likely that they will just laugh and ignore them. That or label Kim a terrorist and do what they do to terrorists on foreign soil - kill them with drones.

Re:Victory for this battle is to MPAA

[colesw]

Oh, and when the US loses this case, I can't wait for the counter-suit for damages. I would laugh my pants off when the US government is ordered to cover the damages incurred during this farce of a trial. I hope Kim Dotcom takes them to the cleaners and take everything to the max. Get them to pay so obscene amounts that heads will have to roll and the collaboration with the copyright MAFIAA is dropped like a hot potato.

I can think of one problem with this, just because they lose the extradition case, doesn't mean they'll give up their case against him. They can easily hold the case without him being there (Spamhaus comes to mind), and then where is he planning on suing them?

Re:Victory for this battle is to MPAA

[dbIII]

I would laugh my pants off when the US government is ordered to cover the damages incurred

No payment would ever be made if that were ever to happen.

Re:Victory for this battle is to MPAA

[Anonymous Coward]

They still destroyed this guys business. And who got to foot the bill for that? Taxpayers.

That was the goal from the start. Mission acomplished.

Re:Victory for this battle is to MPAA

[Anonymous Coward]

It is possible, if unlikely, for a copyright holder to upload his/her own content. So "copyrighted content exists" does not mean "copyrighted content is unauthorized", as far as Megaupload's employees are concerned.

Now, I'll grant you, they probably had a pretty damn good idea that it was unauthorized, but they couldn't know for 100% certain, and you'd have a hard task trying to prove that they did.

What's more, suppose I'm an indie producer and I want the Megaupload rewards for download count on the material I produce. I could upload my content legally, and if my materials are popular, Megaupload would reward me for it. Now you could download my content, and then you could upload my content without authorization and post it on blogs and forums to try to steal my download hits. I would be well within my rights as the owner of the content to have Megaupload remove access to your unauthorized copy and not reward you for its download hits, but my identical copy should stay there, and I should get all of the download hits from people downloading it. So you can't assume that just because one copy is infringing, that all copies are infringing.

I observed an unusual tone in the statement...

[bogaboga]

"A judge in New Zealand has ordered the U.S. government to hand over evidence seized in the Megaupload raid so Kim Dotcom and his co-defendants can use it to prepare a defense for an extradition hearing..."(bold/italics mine)

Usually, it is the US that orders other jurisdictions to hand over stuff...not the other way round! This leads me to one conclusion:

It will not work! This request is DoA! Moot...name it!

Re:I observed an unusual tone in the statement...

[PARENA]

Well, if they don't hand it over, then I reckon the case for extradition will be thrown out and Dotcom is free to go. Not to the US, obviously... So it's in the their best interest to provide the requested evidence.

Re:I observed an unusual tone in the statement...

[Anonymous Coward]

Here we go again, As a Kiwi that lived thought the 80's in NZ with the American Nuclear ship visits......... the Big bully in that case got told to take his toys and go home.... let's see what happens

Re:I observed an unusual tone in the statement...

[Anonymous Coward]

By taking that evidence without the NZ court's authorization, the FBI nullified any chance to use anything they discover from it in a court of law. And worse, this NZ judge just made it official.

Megaupload lawyers in the US must be laughing their asses of and I think they will have a hard time keeping a straight face when they challenge all this evidence under 4th amendment grounds before the Virginia judge.

America, fuck yeah

[Psychotria]

Actually I would like to correct that: America, fuck you.

Re:America, fuck yeah

[psiclops]

theres nothing wrong with the parts of america that aren't the US

Re:America, fuck yeah

[Anonymous Coward]

There are no such parts, unless you're one of those idiots that doesn't know anything about context.

Re:America, fuck yeah

[mwvdlee]

Yes, "fuck you" could only ever be directed at one specific part of the American continent.

Re:America, fuck yeah

[Anonymous Coward]

Not yet. Up here in Canada we're working hard on changing that.

Re:America, fuck yeah

[Anonymous Coward]

There's nothing wrong with the verb GP mentions neither. People do it all the time.

Re:America, fuck yeah

[Anonymous Coward]

You seriously think Mexico is doing just fine? You're delusional.

Re:America, fuck yeah

[quadrox]

you should try to look up the word "context" in a dictionary.

Re:Wisdom follows, pay attention!

[TapeCutter]

Your 'wisdom' makes me glad the fools are running the planet.

The UK would have caved already.

[Anonymous Coward]

Interesting to note that the UK has extradited 2 citizens recently without having to view the evidence against them. Good on New Zealand for standing up to the US.

Missing the point

[cbope]

I believe the most significant quote from the statement is this:

"United States is attempting to utilize concepts from the civil copyright context as a basis for the application of criminal copyright liability [which] necessitates a consideration of principles such as the dual use of technology and what they be described as significant non-infringing uses."

In other words, the NZ government realizes this is a misuse of the justice system to allow the US government to prosecute a civil case as a criminal one without giving the defendant access to evidence. The significant problem here is that the rights of the right-holder is being held to a higher standard than the rights of the defendant in this case.

I'm not attempting to say Mr. Dotcom is completely innocent in this case, but the US legal system has destroyed his business, confiscated his assets and likely taken away his future without due process and without a conviction of any crime at this point. Innocent until proven guilty, anyone?

Re:Missing the point

[martin-boundary]

I'm not attempting to say Mr. Dotcom is completely innocent in this case, but [...]

Why aren't you? Isn't he innocent until proven guilty? Right now, he's 100% innocent.

Re:Missing the point

[Corbets]

I'm not attempting to say Mr. Dotcom is completely innocent in this case, but [...]

Why aren't you? Isn't he innocent until proven guilty? Right now, he's 100% innocent.

Innocent until proven guilty is correctly used with the verb "presumed", not "is". Whether he is innocent or guilty will not change in the coming months - either a crime has already been committed or it hasn't. However, he is presumed innocent until proven otherwise.

Err.. yeah.. no.

[Anonymous Coward]

Stop stealing American movies, music, software and games. Why are you guys so desperate for American made stuff? Should we just arrange for some pity donations of CDs and other media so you can enjoy some decent entertainment? :D :D

They Forgot

[Anonymous Coward]

This was just an oversight, the US has forgotten that you are supposed to have evidence for criminal trials. With the Bush and Obama doctrines, NSLs, GItmo, and the national security exception this idea of evidence is a rather quaint and archaic notion. I'm sure they are sending the evidence now to their less enlightened allies.

Re:They Forgot

[91degrees]

I think they were expecting to find a smoking gun. Some evidence that makes it incontrovertible that Megaupload set up the service to facilitate copyright infringement. They presumably felt that it was an open and shut case, and all they needed to do was raid the servers, and collect the evidence.

Unfortunately they probably haven't. Megaupload appears to have been operating within the law. I suspect a fairly substantial chunk of what's stored there is legitimate, or at least not provably copyright infringing. They're also up against someone who's a lot more legally savvy than the kids who ran TPB, and were possibly a bit overconfident.

and the results are ...

[Anonymous Coward]

.... and all this really put a stop to file sharing. I mean, it simply doesn't exist now ... right?

Kimble - the douchebag's douchebag.

[wildstoo]

Kimble, aka Kim Dotcom is a total asshat.

He is a narcissistic fantasist, and nothing would give me more pleasure than seeing him in prison.

I remember him from back in the Quake days, when he used to hang out in the #quake.uk IRC channel and talk about how awesome he was.

He sucked at Quake tho, and spent far more time on IRC boasting about his lifestyle, being a "security expert" and claiming he could basically hack anything. He was insufferable, and I'm sure he hasn't changed.

There was a particularly good photo of him standing in his office back in 1997, surrounded by computer monitors. An enterprising photoshopper wasted no time in replacing the contents of the monitors with swastikas. Kimble didn't care, he just liked attention. Sadly, it seems this image has been lost in the mists of time.

I'm all for copyright reform, but the Megaupload case is not the way to fight for it. Kimble needs to go. The guy is a total douche.

Re:Kimble - the douchebag's douchebag.

[Mashiki]

I remember him from the quake days too and remember him as being an asshat as well, but to be honest? I couldn't care. You know why? Because the case in itself is a giant miscarriage of justice, and if you can't see that though over 10 years of self-inflicted hate, you've got a deeper psychological problem.

Agents of the MAFIAA plunderbund

[hemo_jr]

As long as the U.S. government considers the MPAA/RIAA its patrons and continues acting as its paid thugs. As long as governments such as New Zealand's are star-struck by the possibility of movies being made in its territory. As long as the MAFIAA thinks it can corrupt governments and walk all over its customers' rights with impunity, this kind of crap will continue.

Additional finding needed

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone needs to ask the judge to rule that US authorities took the property of third parties without warrant or jurisdiction and must return them in full, immediately and pay damages to return them to their original condition. Further they must pay treble damages for the period of loss of use including a theory the FEDS use all the time on others, imputed value where actual value is not readily determinable. Using the typical labor rates and commercial value of IT operations in the US in the area around the prosecutors own neighborhood.

That would be both equitable for the vistims, and notably painful for the perps, the FEDS in this case.

JJ

UNLESS proven otherwise.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not until (which presumes that this will happen in the future), but UNLESS. You remain innocent after the trial, because UNLESS you are proven guilty, you are innocent.

Third world hell-holes...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, there's Los Angeles, the Bronx, chunks of the South including parts of Florida. Probably a few more, but one is pushing the odds thrill seeking to find more in the 1st/2nd/3rd/other world called the USA.