KDE Announces 4.9 Beta1 and Testing Initiative

jrepin writes "KDE released the first beta for its version 4.9 of Workspaces, Applications, and Development Platform. With API, dependency and feature freezes in place, the KDE team's focus is now on fixing bugs and further polishing new and old functionality. Highlights of 4.9 include, but are not limited to: Qt Quick in Plasma Workspaces, many improvements in Dolphin file manager, deeper integration of Activities, and many performance improvements. The KDE Community is committed to improving quality substantially with a new program that starts with the 4.9 releases. The 4.9 beta releases are the first phase of a testing process that involves volunteers called 'Beta Testers.' They will receive training, test the two beta releases and report issues through KDE Bugzilla." I was recently forced into installing GNOME 3 (who knew printing required removing GNOME 2); after trying for a while to get Sawfish working again in the deprecated fallback mode, I gave up and tried KDE again. I have to say that I was surprised: KDE 4.5 was unpolished and painful to use whereas 4.7 is pretty slick. With the GNOME 3 developers catering to some seemingly mythical user, it's nice to see the other major desktop using user feedback to make design decisions.

Comments

GNOME 3 uses user feedback

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey! The GNOME 3 team DOES use user feedback, you insensitive clods! After they print them out (which requires GNOME 3, as you've seen), they shred them and turn them into fine bedding for their various rodent pets! And the rodents, in turn, whisper great design ideas to the developers!

Re:GNOME 3 uses user feedback

[jimshatt]

These 10-dimensional 'rodents' have gone too far with their experiments! I hate their 'user tests', it's indignified. Ooh wait shiny button... brb

Re:GNOME 3 uses user feedback

[Razgorov Prikazka]

But than again, those rodents are (as we all know) mice, and they are the single most intelligent species on earth. If all goes well Federico Mena's scull will be opened by Frankie and Benjy to find out what the question actually is!

Re:GNOME 3 uses user feedback

[Anonymous Coward]

Boo - is that you?!

kubuntu?

[C_amiga_fan]

If I want to try KDE I just download the kubuntu distribution?

Random question - How come Ubuntu 12.04 has a 5 year support system instead of the usual 3 year cycle?

Re:kubuntu?

[Razgorov Prikazka]

That is one option. There are hundreds more, including using synaptic or apt to download and install kde (assuming that you already use 'regular' ubuntu). Or on the other end of the spectrum you can also create a linux-from-scratch 'distro' and compile the whole packet. That makes for days on end filled with joy and fun, and it is very educational as well!

I dont know what the options for Amiga are btw...

Re:kubuntu?

[C_amiga_fan]

Amigas can run PowerPC distributions. But frankly I'd rather just run AmigaOS4.

Re:kubuntu?

[V!NCENT]

If you want a pile of unstable crap then yes.

You're better of with Fedora, because it's the Red Hat backed distro that is bleeding edge, but upstream. As raw and original as it gets. It also has the latest open source drivers.

If you want to live in the world of closed and patented crap (can't blame you as it's all around us, everywhere) then you can get away with RPMFusion, which is a repository (app store thing) full of borderline illegal (as in against lobbied laws) stuff like automatic DVD 'copy protection' cracking on the fly, MPEG codecs, patented stuff and what have you? You can simply enable that with the browser.

Don't try it out on virtual setups; it runs best bare metal. In fact; its very nature is to be close to the metal.

Don't expect the bleeding edge KDE spin on the bleeding edge Fedora Linux distro to be a ccomplete polished ride, but even though the learning curve is a little steep (in OS enduser terms); the hill is very low, so to speak. Once over it, then it becomes second nature and you'll start to wonder why the hell more popular OS's are so full of crap in the way they do things. But it's not as smooth as Apple's OS from the start, so bare that in mind! ;)

Re:kubuntu?

[icebike]

Not to mention Opensuse is a very good distro with full KDE support. (They do Gnome and other flavors as well).
I happen to think Opensuse does KDE better than anyone else, but that's just my opinion.

Having long ago gone the "educational" route, I'm perfectly happy to start with a well thought out distro these days, and have 4 of them on this machine, in (Virtual Machines), including some pretty old school ones running nothing graphical.

Re:kubuntu?

[Artifakt]

If I want to try KDE I just download the kubuntu distribution?

Shore answer: Yes.
Longer answer: Yes, but by default, Kubuntu 12.04 doesn't use KDE 4.9 yet, it uses version 4.8.2. That's in a long term stable release for Kubuntu, so it seems like a pretty safe bet that the October release of Kubuntu (12.10) will go on up to at least 4.9.0. Really, I'm at least slightly impressed that Kubuntu's board feels a version of KDE that's only a few months from cutting edge is fine for an LTS release.

Re:kubuntu?

[Tarlus]

If I want to try KDE I just download the kubuntu distribution?

Many here will argue that Fedora or openSUSE will give you a much better KDE experience, out of the box. My personal experiences with Kubuntu's take on KDE4 have not been positive, unfortunately...

Random question - How come Ubuntu 12.04 has a 5 year support system instead of the usual 3 year cycle?

12.04 is an LTS (Long Term Support) release. This means that it will be supported and patched for a longer period of time than their regular incremental releases, and this works well for people who don't feel inclined to go through the upgrade process every six months. It tends to be the more stable route for those who just want to work and don't want to have to fiddle with their computer more than they need to. It is also possible to upgrade directly from one LTS to the next. Every two years in April, they release a new LTS.

Re:kubuntu?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because the server LTS releases normally have a 5 year release, and you could always just install the server version and then install all the desktop software, there wasn't of a point in pretending that the desktop LTS releases were only supported for 3 years.

Re:kubuntu?

[shutdown -p now]

If you want "bleeding edge, but upstream", then nothing beats Arch.

Re:kubuntu?

[Anonymous Coward]

You probably want openSUSE instead.

Re:kubuntu?

[Zantetsuken]

Disclaimer: I still haven't used Arch

The "bleeding" in part doesn't apply though if you can apply updates and it not break things or freak out because something requires newer libraries than the repos have (and thats with just the default repos) - all you have then is a distro thats on the edge, not the "bleeding, cut my wrists, edge"

Re:kubuntu?

[Anonymous Coward]

That and headless virtualised kickstart installs.

Re:kubuntu?

[Nimey]

Nothing too odd about it. They've done the same thing with Gnome for the past six years: whichever is the most recently released version at the time of an LTS release gets the extra-long support, full stop.

They did the same for the just-getting-usable KDE 4.4 with the 10.04 LTS, though with 8.04 you could either stick with KDE 3.5 or try out 4.0.

Re:kubuntu?

[reub2000]

So far with Fedora 16 on my laptop I've seen a kernel update that didn't like my wifi nic. By enabling the updates repo on fedora you get many of the disadvantages of a rolling release like the possibility of things breaking, without advantages like not having to reinstall.

Re:kubuntu?

[Anonymous Coward]

powerwheels power makes it go!

Re:kubuntu?

[ifiwereasculptor]

I found both Kubuntu and Fedora to be incredibly bug-ridden. In my experience, the best KDE-based distros today are Arch and Debian. So I'd suggest Arch, since Debian probably won't have KDE 4.9 until 2013 or so (they just upgraded unstable/testing to 4.7 and I think 4.8 has is entering the experimental branch).

Re:kubuntu?

[hobarrera]

If you want to live in the world of closed and patented crap (can't blame you as it's all around us, everywhere) then you can get away with RPMFusion, which is a repository (app store thing) full of borderline illegal (as in against lobbied laws) stuff like automatic DVD 'copy protection' cracking on the fly, MPEG codecs, patented stuff and what have you? You can simply enable that with the browser.

Illegal in USA, but not in most of the rest of the world. All the stuff you mentioned in pretty much legal in most countries.

Fedora isn't really bleeding edge:

Debian is very very stable and usually lags behind.
Arch is really bleeding edge.

Fedora is somewhat in between both.

Re:kubuntu?

[unixisc]

That's for Linux. If you are open to BSDs, then there is PC-BSD as well, which comes w/ a choice of DEs, but where KDE 4.7.3 is the default.

Re:kubuntu?

[ADRA]

Fedora is definitely bleeding edge, but often rewarding. I have had a very sucessful Fedora 16 run except for the brief period when the early 3.3.2's would panic my laptop (was fixed in 3.3.x evidently), so I was stuck with an older kernel for a while and life went on. Fedora 17 on one of my alternate laptops seems even better so far, but my only pain is that its still a b**ch to install Sun JVM's on it (Many java apps I use still barf horribly and regularly with the IcedTea variants).

Can anyone point me at a good clean and simple setup for alternatives to work out of box?

Re:kubuntu?

[stoolpigeon]

I always just install the Oracle JDK - I did it last week after I upgraded my laptop to F17 - simply a download and install as directed - no problems. This was a Dell Latitude laptop.

Re:kubuntu?

[davetv]

I am still running Kubuntu 8.04 with KDE 3.5 on my Acer 3620 laptop (I am typing this on it). I manually upgrade stuff here and there but find it incredibly stable.

Re:kubuntu?

[Anonymous Coward]

I would recommend Sabayon.

Gentoo + Sanity === Sabayon

Also, the KDE spins are great.

Re:kubuntu?

[Anonymous Coward]

all this really amounts to is "we now have five years to fix the bugs we didn't bother to cover before release"

Re:kubuntu?

[bastafidli]

Add these PPAs

https://launchpad.net/~kubuntu-ppa

and you will get 4.9 as soon as it becomes available.

Re:kubuntu?

[Anonymous Coward]

If that takes you days you might want to go back to windows.

Re:kubuntu?

[Razgorov Prikazka]

...and it is educational as well...
Windhose is just slow and not educational. So, sorry dude, I for one will not transgress to the closedsourced MS stuff.

Volunteers called "beta testers"

[Chemisor]

I am so glad that KDE has finally discovered that new "beta testing" thing. It is sure to improve the quality of future releases.

Desktop bling vs Fluxbox usability

[hackertarget]

Whether its Gnome or KDE, Unity or Metro - if the desktop bling gets in the way of a smooth user experience then the deskop is not doing its job.

From time to time I try the latest and greatest desktop environment and perhaps I will go to a "heavy" desktop in the future but for now Fluxbox serves its purpose and will stay as my default desktop.

Re:Desktop bling vs Fluxbox usability

[MrHanky]

Yeah, Fluxbox is more 1337. You don't get that with functionality.

Re:Desktop bling vs Fluxbox usability

[Anonymous Coward]

"if the desktop bling gets in the way of a smooth user experience then the deskop is not doing its job."

Agreed, which is why KDE is the only desktop I'll use. Everything else has had too many features ripped out mercilessly to be a productive environment. KDE is the only thing left for power users, it seems. It lets me, from the GUI without having to fart around with some obscure desktop-specific config tool:

* Control which desktop newly opened windows go to as a function of the app. E.g, all email windows go to desktop 2, editors and shells to desktop 1, and so on.

* Provide regex-based configurable clipping behaviors when selecting text from any app.

* Provides an extremely rich set of GUI-settable key mapping and key macro prefs, such as mapping caps lock to control (a necessity for touch typists), where this requires some xmodmap stuff in most desktops. In KDE, it's just a checkbox. Or the key bindings *I* want for changing between virtual desktops.

* Provides keyboard controls for everything.

* Is endlessly configurable, for adding new task bars, putting what I want in them, and having them where I want them to go.

And so on. Sure, somebody is bound to say, "hey, but you can do that one in this desktop!" but it's missing the point. Any time I've tried another, it's inevitable that sooner or later I look for some feature which just isn't there. KDE, what I want has always been available.

Re:Desktop bling vs Fluxbox usability

[craigminah]

While KDE is solid and a very good looking GUI, I prefer LXDE as it's got 99% of the features I need and it's quick in my VM.

Re:Desktop bling vs Fluxbox usability

[Anonymous Coward]

try xfce, it doesnt suck

Re:Desktop bling vs Fluxbox usability

[paulatz]

While KDE is solid and a very good looking GUI, I prefer LXDE as it's got 99% of the features I need and it's quick in my VM.

Ok if you are using a desktop linux environment it in a Virtual Machine, I don't think you qualify as a Linux user; more like a Linux taster.

Re:Desktop bling vs Fluxbox usability

[Anonymous Coward]

"Control which desktop newly opened windows go to as a function of the app."

Could you briefly explain how this can be set in KDE 4? I had it set in ancient times in 3.5, but when forced to upgrade I couldn't find where to set it anymore...

Thanks!

Re:Desktop bling vs Fluxbox usability

[Anonymous Coward]

"Provides an extremely rich set of GUI-settable key mapping and key macro prefs, such as mapping caps lock to control (a necessity for touch typists), where this requires some xmodmap stuff in most desktops. In KDE, it's just a checkbox. Or the key bindings *I* want for changing between virtual desktops."

Gnome does this as well and has for a long time.

Re:Desktop bling vs Fluxbox usability

[jones_supa]

Aahh...what's better than setting up a desktop environment with friends to have some good Wine and taste some Linuxes.

Re:Desktop bling vs Fluxbox usability

[djfreestyler]

Right click the title bar, go to "Advanced -> Special Application Settings" or "More Actions -> Special Application Settings" and then under Size & Position check "Desktop" and use "Force". In 4.9 you can do the same with Activities, by the way. In addition, this can also be configured through "Window Rules" under "Window Behaviour" in System Settings. In fact, the above method is just a shortcut for this.

Re:Desktop bling vs Fluxbox usability

[craigminah]

Just like "real" programmers still hand code machine language on punch cards...use the best tool for the job, GUI v. CLI has been done to death. I can use the CLI but I prefer a minimalist GUI to make it easier.

Does it still have the deal-breaker?

[Maltheus]

I would love KDE if it would just stick to being a window manager. But everything related to that semantic desktop nonsense is perpetually buggy and knotify refuses to live with anything less than 100% of the CPU. These problems come and go with different releases, but they never entirely go away.

I have used KDE for many years on many computers, but I finally had to give up on it this year. Like so many open source projects, the bloat drove me away.

Re:Does it still have the deal-breaker?

[Anonymous Coward]

I just finished installing Kubuntu, and while the 'activities' are a mystery for me, I was pleased to see the idle desktop using 2% CPU on a new machine.

Re:Does it still have the deal-breaker?

[icebike]

Just turn off or uninstall what you don't need.

I find it very stable, and rather surprisingly lightweight considering all the bells and whistles it supports. The current version is one of the best versions of KDE of all time, IMHO.

Nobody I know uses the semantic desktop, its simply a developmental toy, and most people turn off the indexing functions, since they pretty well know what is on their machines and where it is. They've even been browbeaten into deep-sixing their "activities" for the vast majority of users that simply wanted multiple desktops without all the widgets. (Its still there, but mostly caged and toothless).

  It does everything I ask of it, and gets out of the way when I don't need it. Their Kmail, which use to be one of the best email MUAs has fallen to unusable status of late, in the midst of another re-write, but Thunderbird and several other are there to pick up the slack.

Re:Does it still have the deal-breaker?

[Anonymous Coward]

I know this concept is new and frightening to Gnome and Unity users, but KDE has something called "System Settings" where you can customize pretty much every single aspect of the desktop, including turning off semantic desktop, (compositing) desktop effects (including letting you turn it off and on, on the fly!), and tons of other things to make it as big or small as you want.

Of course, users have been trained to believe customizability is bad for some dumb reason these days. They somehow don't realize that you don't HAVE to customize things at all and just take what's given to you just like Gnome and Unity. But the options are there if you want them, and want to change something besides the wallpaper and a few other superficial options.

Re:Does it still have the deal-breaker?

[Maltheus]

You can't uninstall semantic desktop, it's integrated AFAIK. I do turn off the file indexing, but you have to remember to do that on each account you make, and I have even had it pop back on from time to time. It's mind boggling to me that this is still on by default, given that it brings every machine out there to its kness. As for knotify, that's tied to everything and seems to be the biggest culprit in thrashing the CPU.

Maybe KDE is simply not a good fit for Gentoo, but I've seen these problems for years now on quite a few completely different machines. KDE can be good for 6-8 months at a time, but eventually the kitchen sink they threw into it eventually starts to back up, requiring a hard reset and all that entails.

Re:Does it still have the deal-breaker?

[slack_justyb]

Yes you can remove the semantic desktop stuff. Gentoo has a compile option that you can include that will specifically build KDE sans the semantic desktop.

Re:Does it still have the deal-breaker?

[slug.slug]

That might be true, but then simple things like full body search of your email from kmail is not possible, since it's highly integrated on the latest versions. Unless you know something that I don't and are willing to share to make this possible? :)

Re:Does it still have the deal-breaker?

[Anonymous Coward]

Add "tsa" into your USE flags. for full body search

Re:Does it still have the deal-breaker?

[slack_justyb]

I'm not sure about the full body email search, but if you wanted to do that wouldn't you want semantic desktop? I guess what you're asking is how to have such an option in KMail without having to include the entire kitchen sink that is the semantic desktop? I think you can pick and choose the services that nepomuk uses, but I would be out of my element on that since I just turn the whole thing off. If there isn't a way to filter nepomuk to only be used for KMail, then that would be a great request.

Re:Does it still have the deal-breaker?

[Anonymous Coward]

KDE has never, ever, at any point in its entire history been a Window Manager.

It has always been first and foremost a Desktop Environment. If you just want to manage windows, use fluxbox or something. But don't complain about KDE being precisely what it says on the box.

Re:Does it still have the deal-breaker?

[tzanger]

I too was a long-time KDE user (at least since the 2.0 days) -- the entire 4.x release has been one colossal fuck-up. It's at 4.9 and NOW they're focusing on usability and bugfixing? I got sick of it. I moved to xfce on my workstation and for the most part I'm very happy. My wife bought an i7 macbook air for me for Christmas and that's been my main machine. Before that was Kubuntu.

Sorry KDE, you've lost me. I was one of your biggest and longest fans. Your 3.x releases were the pinnacle of your design. 4.x was a long and tortured release for your followers, and I am willing to bet you lost almost all of them. From what I understand Gnome went and did the same thing to their faithful. Hopefully xfce stays true to its roots.

Re:Does it still have the deal-breaker?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll stick to XFWM, it's simple, works, rock stable, and if I need anything from Gnome or KDE, it's not a big deal to use in XFWM. The same can be said with Fluxbox and others, but I prefer XFWM. The interface just works for me. All this integration and flashy stuff in Gnome or KDE is just too much crap for me.

Re:Does it still have the deal-breaker?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes! So true. KDE 3.5 was a great desktop and even now the 4.x version has not yet surpassed its usability, customization options, or stability.

You have to wonder if the KDE developers were all smoking crack when they decided to release a bug-infested broken crapware with 4.0 and totally destroyed their entire community?

Personally, I'd rather use windows than XFCE. It's lite-weight and all, but doesn't have any standout killer features that weren't already on WinXP.

Re:Does it still have the deal-breaker?

[stoolpigeon]

How to Use KDE Plasma Activities (a little old)

The Mystery of KDE Activities (apparently you aren't alone)

How to use KDE 4 Desktop Activities (really short if you are in a hurry)

A Bit on KDE Activities (More recent, more critical. I like it)
 
I've been using KDE for quite a while and I'll admit I don't really use Activities a whole lot right now. I do on multi-monitor setups but that's because it does it automatically. But in the sense of setting them up - I've only played with it and I'm not 100% sold on how useful it will be to me personally but these my help you get a handle on whether or not you think they are good for your style of computing.

Re:Does it still have the deal-breaker?

[paulatz]

That might be true, but then simple things like full body search of your email from kmail is not possible, since it's highly integrated on the latest versions. Unless you know something that I don't and are willing to share to make this possible? :)

Not that anybody actually ever used kmail anyway. I'll give you a secret hint: you can perfectly well use thunderbird under kde.

To be honest, in 10 years of using KDE (from the late 2.x versions) it never shipped with a high quality mail client. Usable, yes, but not up to par with thunderbird or even to the Opera mail client or, nowadays, gmail.

Re:Does it still have the deal-breaker?

[RubberMallet]

If you update to at least 4.8.2, you will see that the semantic desktop stuff barely causes a blip on your CPU load.

Re:Does it still have the deal-breaker?

[UnknownSoldier]

> I too was a long-time KDE user (at least since the 2.0 days) -- the entire 4.x release has been one colossal fuck-up.
> From what I understand Gnome went and did the same thing to their faithful.

Its sad to see the Linux community remains clueless about UI design. :-/ Everybody seems to be jumping on the tablet bandwagon not understanding the strengths and weaknesses of the traditional desktop and the same perspectives for tablets.

As one gets older I'm finding I just want a stable, standard, UI that just works. Sure Windows and OSX lack advanced features -- hell, they are barely contain the basic features, but they just work. Why is so hard to just treat users with respect -- both the novice and poweruser? You know, like giving options for "WindowShade" where users can roll up the window to just the title bar, having a title bar that doesn't take up the whole honky window width (BeOS did this perfect with "tab'd window titles), etc.

Re:Does it still have the deal-breaker?

[optimus2861]

I'm not sure about the full body email search, but if you wanted to do that wouldn't you want semantic desktop? I guess what you're asking is how to have such an option in KMail without having to include the entire kitchen sink that is the semantic desktop?

KMail (used to?) store its email in the maildir format, meaning they're all just plain text files. It could fall back on plain old 'find' commands in the shell and return the results. But from what I'm reading, it's so wedded to "semantic desktop" now that it can't even do that? Ugh. I guess I really will have to ditch it for good on this upgrade (moving from Mint 9 LTS to Mint 13 LTS shortly).

Re:Does it still have the deal-breaker?

[marsu_k]

You know, like giving options for "WindowShade" where users can roll up the window to just the title bar, having a title bar that doesn't take up the whole honky window width (BeOS did this perfect with "tab'd window titles), etc.

I'm not sure if I understand what you're asking - KWin has supported shading windows just as you described since like forever, I personally have it mapped to the mouse wheel. And it also has featured window grouping (similar to the "tab'd window titles" you refer to) since 4.5 as far as I remember (although, it seems at some point the feature did become disabled by default). Most of the themes do feature a full width title bar, but I'm sure more BeOS-like ones exist if you're so inclined.

Re:Does it still have the deal-breaker?

[rec9140]

"Not that anybody actually ever used kmail anyway. I'll give you a secret hint: you can perfectly well use thunderbird under kde.

To be honest, in 10 years of using KDE (from the late 2.x versions) it never shipped with a high quality mail client. Usable, yes, but not up to par with thunderbird or even to the Opera mail client or, nowadays, gmail"

Wrong! I've used KMail since, well forever. No! thunderchicken is NOT up to the task, and KMail is/was {till 4.8} a HIGH QUALITY mail client. It works just the way I want it to, and my gmail gets imported in daily to it quite nicely. Which I can't do in the latest release, nor can I even migrate to it as its mail migration utility has been borqed since this "improvement" with akondai.

Really everyone derides akonadi, strigi, nepoturkey, yet at every turn its shoved down users throats!

Fine if YOU DEVELOPERS think its oh so great use it! Let the REST OF US REAL USERS continue on with WHAT WORKS!

Re:Does it still have the deal-breaker?

[MtHuurne]

KMail still supports maildir, but it's handled by a daemon now instead of inside the KMail process. And that daemon isn't very stable. So you'll see status notifications appear when the daemon has crashed and restarted. I hope this will be addressed in 4.9 (I'm using 4.8).

Re:Does it still have the deal-breaker?

[rec9140]

I'm not sure about the full body email search, but if you wanted to do that wouldn't you want semantic desktop? I guess what you're asking is how to have such an option in KMail without having to include the entire kitchen sink that is the semantic desktop? I think you can pick and choose the services that nepomuk uses, but I would be out of my element on that since I just turn the whole thing off. If there isn't a way to filter nepomuk to only be used for KMail, then that would be a great request.

No, I don't use semantic desktop, and I don't need my entire system indexed for one program to have a search function. The search function was working quite fine in KMail till this "enahancement/improvement" with nepoturkey.

First, since I can't even import the huge existing maildirs with out success in the latest version.

Second, since I disable nepoturkey on install I loose the ability to search emails.. thats WRONG! WRONG WRONG W R O N G ! ! !

Semantic, schemantic, phooey! Some KDE dev's are just too young and isolated to understand the userbase. You want this as an OPTION GREAT have at, just don't borq up the rest of it for the REAL USERS.

Re:Does it still have the deal-breaker?

[rec9140]

If you update to at least 4.8.2, you will see that the semantic desktop stuff barely causes a blip on your CPU load.

Thats NOT the only reason for disabling it! I do NOT want an INDEX of my system! Period! If you can see the implications of this, then you don't understand why having a pre existing index of your system is not good for your. Regardless of whether your doing any thing that would trigger this problem, its an issue.

Its like many things, bored programmers fixing a problem that does NOT EXIST.

Re:Does it still have the deal-breaker?

[unixisc]

Under KDE3.5, KMail used to be pretty anemic. I wonder whether it's seen major improvement in KDE4.x, for it to be described in the terms above?

Re:Does it still have the deal-breaker?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody I know uses the semantic desktop, its simply a developmental toy, and most people turn off the indexing functions, since they pretty well know what is on their machines and where it is.

And/or because they don't want other people to what's in there. I can imagine things like encfs encrypted directories to be pretty useless if the knowledge of what's in there is found because some jackass daemon decides to store it.

Re:Does it still have the deal-breaker?

[renoX]

Turning off something to have a normally functioning desktop shouldn't be required: most users use the regular desktop without changing settings, even if they're annoyed by something..

In my opinion, KDE developers make a big mistake here, enabling by default non-ready features..

Re:Does it still have the deal-breaker?

[tenco]

Wasn't that KDE's development motto? What was it again... deploy now, fix later? Ah, no: release early, release often.

Re:Does it still have the deal-breaker?

[hobarrera]

But it isn't a window manager. It's a Desktop Enviroment. The windows manager is only a tiny portion of what KDE is.

Re:Does it still have the deal-breaker?

[Anonymous Coward]

I absolutely don't see an issue with it - if it doesn't eat too much space (disk or RAM), or too much CPU, then it's neutral or possibly useful. It speeds up search (because I don't have steel control over every file and searchable item), and that's ... about it. Oh the horror.

Re:Does it still have the deal-breaker?

[Maltheus]

Ok, I recall that now. But I'm pretty sure that at one point, it became a required flag. It may not be anymore, and it may only be a gentoo requirement, but that's the only reason I ever re-enabled it.

uhh why is the post talking about gnome3?

[ThorGod]

When the announcement is about the new release of KDE 4.9?

Bizarre.

Re:uhh why is the post talking about gnome3?

[orgue]

Because KDE is existing for the purpose of being compared with GNOME.

Re:uhh why is the post talking about gnome3?

[ifiwereasculptor]

KDE developers must sure have it easy, then...

Re:uhh why is the post talking about gnome3?

[unixisc]

Pretty moronic, given that KDE was there first, and GNOME only exists b'cos the FSF threw a stink about Qt's licensing. Once KDE went GPL, GNOME really lost its rationale for existing, particularly since it never fulfilled its raison d'etre - that of being a GNU Network Object Model Environment! Hell, GNUSTEP is more of a GNU Network Object Model Environment than 'GNOME' is, and a far better one at that. Ironically, for a GNU project, it's funny that the 'libre-Linux' distros like Trisquel bundle GNOME3 in fallback mode b'cos of the likelihood that the drivers won't be liberated firmware. One would think that a GNU project like GNOME would factor in all this before making 3D video accelaration a part of the key features.

Re:uhh why is the post talking about gnome3?

[Asic Eng]

I think it's including that, because a lot of users are frustrated by the way desktop UIs have been developing on Linux. (I'm not making claims regarding us being a majority - just that this reflects the feeling of a sizable number of users.) When KDE threw away the excellent code base they had with KDE 3 and early KDE 4 releases turned out to be horrible (much improved in later KDE 4s) many KDE users went to GNOME. Now with GNOME 3 there is similar frustration with esoteric UI concepts and the like. So with KDE getting better again it may be worth another look. As I said: that might not reflect the way the majority of users think, but it's relevant for a significant number.

Personally - I'll try it again on one of my machines, but for my main PC I'll stick with KDE 3.

It's just little stuff - like the KDE-menu not being disturbed when something is loading in the background, the notifications handling not being as distracting, keeping the desktops separated etc. It just does everything I need and is fast enough.

Re:uhh why is the post talking about gnome3?

[olau]

Pretty moronic, given that KDE was there first, and GNOME only exists b'cos the FSF threw a stink about Qt's licensing. Once KDE went GPL, GNOME really lost its rationale for existing, particularly since it never fulfilled its raison d'etre - that of being a GNU Network Object Model Environment!

It's true that GNOME to some degree was started because of the licensing of Qt and got a lot of corporate backing out of that, but the rest of what you say is just stupid.

The people who started GNOME were architecture astronauting it with all the component stuff, that was back in the day when that was all the craze, then eventually figured out people don't care about components, they care about simple-to-use software. And components get in the way there because they make the software much more complex. That's why it was been pulled out again.

I think GNOME 3 happened to a large degree because GNOME 2 was perceived to be falling behind the new developments in Windows. And it was. Maybe not for you, but the GNOME team is trying to hit more mainstream users who like blingbling.

I'm happy we have two big desktop environments, it gives the whiners somewhere to go to. :)

Re:uhh why is the post talking about gnome3?

[strikethree]

I am unsure why people talk about Gnome still. It is lying on the floor with blood running out of its neck and the knife has fallen out of the wound. It would be nice to find the murderer and hold them to account, but that can not happen since the death, for all intents and purposes (for all in tents and porpoises?), appears to be a suicide. I still think it was Microsoft who did it just like they did it to Gentoo. Brutal.

Minty Cinnamon Goodness!

[rueger]

I abandoned Ubuntu when Unity was foisted on users, moving over to Mint.

With the Maya release (aka Mint 13) they've left behind Gnome for a choice of MATE or Cinnamon. I installed the latter, and I'm liking it a LOT.

Lots of good, simple usability, and a decided lack of annoying flash and gadgetry.

Nonetheless, I'll likely give the new KDE a look.

Re:Minty Cinnamon Goodness!

[bmo]

If you're changing distros because of the default desktop, you're doing it wrong.

The Ubuntu archives have several dozen desktops, window managers, etc, in the archives all for the pointing, clicking, and installing.

It's like the people who complain that Ubuntu is bloated, when you can start from a text-only minimal install and build up from there. Linux distributions, including Ubuntu, give you the tools to bend the distro to your will. Use them instead of complaining about things.

Your post is nothing but a flame pointed at Ubuntu.

--
BMO

Re:Minty Cinnamon Goodness!

[unixisc]

But he'd have to go install Ubuntu w/ Unity or GNOME3 first, then go to software center or online, get Cinnamon (which I don't think is there in the Ubuntu repos) and then install it, and see whether it replaces Unity or not. Going to Mint, as he did, seems a lot more straightforward.

At any rate, he could also try out Razor-qt

Re:Minty Cinnamon Goodness!

[bmo]

But he'd have to go install Ubuntu w/ Unity or GNOME3 first

No, he doesn't. Since when is Unity or Gnome3 mandatory for Ubuntu? You don't have to install *any* desktop at all. Just because someone can't be arsed to not look around for the alternate installs doesn't mean they don't exist.

And all he has to do is add the Cinnamon PPA to /etc/apt/sources.list and sudo-apt-get install the metapackage.

Bam. Cinnamon.

--
BMO

Re:Minty Cinnamon Goodness!

[paulatz]

I abandoned Ubuntu when Unity was foisted on users, moving over to Mint.

Mint 12 was the most unholy mess of a piece of software I have ever tried; and its desktop environment, no matter how they call it, is just a badly patched version of gnome 3.

I apologize for the flame, but I feel that Mint is doing much more harm than good to the Linux world. They funnel away users from real distribution baiting them with a quick remix of Ubuntu; the issue they are actually most accurate to fix are the sponsor referrals.

And, they don't contribute anything back to the community, except for some unstable aesthetic patches for gnome and a couple of wallpapers. They don't even have a proper bug tracker: the answer is report to Ubuntu, let the South Africans do the work, all we do is pre-install the multimedia repository, deprecate dist upgrade and get the cash.

Re:Minty Cinnamon Goodness!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah.. people seem to forget that Mint is package compatible with Ubuntu and this works both ways obviously.

Re:Minty Cinnamon Goodness!

[Fri13]

Some things can not be changed without changing distribution. Like package naming and decencies for them.
Some packages are compiled with bloat settings or with style that user have harder time to hunt specific version (still needed some cases).

Re:Minty Cinnamon Goodness!

[bmo]

>Some packages are compiled with bloat settings

And this is why you can turn off "install recommends"

It's literally one mouse click in Synaptic.

--
BMO

Re:Minty Cinnamon Goodness!

[strikethree]

Hm. Has Ubuntu ever fixed the problem with keyboard and mouse stopping working when an Nvidia video card is present on the system? Nope. That bug is over 5 years old now. It is not my fault that the problem only occurs on 1 system out of a thousand even if my system is one of them. Ubuntu just needs to die because it is NOT fit for survival. Unity? Unresolved bugs half a decade old? Gnome3? Meh.

Re:Minty Cinnamon Goodness!

[tenco]

Your post is nothing but a flame pointed at Ubuntu.

I don't understand... isn't Mint just a repackaged Ubuntu?

Re:Minty Cinnamon Goodness!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, because we all know that Cinnamon is an officially supported part of Ubuntu right? Remember, Mint is Ubuntu with additional supported components. I don't see Ubuntu supporting Cinnamon or MATE for 5 years like Linux Mint is doing with its LTS.

Re:Minty Cinnamon Goodness!

[Anonymous Coward]

So maintaining GNOME 2 in the form of MATE for an LTS period (5 years) along with a better-maintained fork of slab menu that Novell originally developed isn't a contribution? I guess by your logic Kubuntu, Xubuntu and Lubuntu don't contribute either? Remember that Canonical has repeatedly been bashed for contributing very little to the community, so by that logic, Ubuntu isn't really a contribution either!

In addition, Linux Mint contributes MATE to Debian along with a polished Debian Testing spin, which brings additional testers to Debian (which is the upstream of Ubuntu, oh... wait... isn't that... a... contribution... to...... Ubuntu? *faints*)

Re:Minty Cinnamon Goodness!

[bmo]

What part of PPA do you not understand?

--
BMO

4.7 ?

[Anonymous Coward]

On gentoo we have been been running 4.8.x for some time, its really nice with a few workarounds for those that know what they are doing.

Re:4.7 ?

[unixisc]

Speaking of which, what's changed from 4.7 to 4.8?

Volunteers...

[CannonballHead]

Volunteers called "Beta Testers." Wow. I wonder if this will catch on with other development groups? Sounds like a pretty neat idea. I'm surprised no one else has done that...

Re:Volunteers...

[segin]

And they're supposed to test things out before they're ready for general consumption... wait, why are they reducing that userbase? I remember when they would throw things called "stable releases" at everyone and their grandma to try out before they were ready.

Re:Volunteers...

[Anonymous Coward]

I call them faggot fuck linsux dick smokers... but to each their own.
 
Maybe someday you'll be able to afford a real computer and not some pile of shit Wintel box running an even shittier OS.

how much longer...

[Anonymous Coward]

how much longer are the two camps and supporters going to squabble like children. Step back a bit and consider the damage done to Linux on the Desktop during this retard slapfight.

Re:how much longer...

[StayFrosty]

NO damage was done to the Linux desktop. Both camps have different ideas on how things should be done. Both camps tailor their project to a specific set of users. One combined project would likely alienate even more users since neither camp would be happy with the end result.

Competition is also helpful for spurring innovation. Without competition, stagnation occurs because there is nothing driving progress forward. Look at how long IE6 stuck around until Firefox provided enough market pressure to force Microsoft to innovate again. Other OS's would provide some competition but from the looks of Metro I'm not entirely sure that will be the case.

Debian 6 with GNOME 2.30.2 is where it's at :-)

[mfearby]

It just works. No fuss. No insanity. Just panels and file managers and not a lot else that I don't care for. These monolithic desktop environments developed by mental patients are a bad thing!

Re:Debian 6 with GNOME 2.30.2 is where it's at :-)

[tyrione]

It just works. No fuss. No insanity. Just panels and file managers and not a lot else that I don't care for. These monolithic desktop environments developed by mental patients are a bad thing!

I'm on Debian Sid and running GNOME 3.4.2 and KDE 4.8.3 officially released from Debian.

Re:Debian 6 with GNOME 2.30.2 is where it's at :-)

[hobarrera]

Sadly, it's just a matter of time before Gnome3 catches up on debian-stable.

Neat

[arose]

Apparently I'm mysterious, that's pretty cool!

This

[Tailhook]

OpenSUSE: Linux for grownups that earn a living in Linux.

I tried. I really, really tried to cope with Gnome 3 on Ubuntu. When that failed, I reverted to Gnome 2 and found it neglected; things that should work, things that worked when Gnome 2 was Ubuntu's desktop, don't.

Back to OpenSUSE. You might need to beat akanodi and nepomuk into submission and the current release installer gets NVidia wrong, but those are simple problems for competent users to overcome. Once squared away you're left with a usable, feature complete desktop. Protip: replace the distro Flash with the Adobe's RPM.

I must agree 100% with the 'mythical user' jab. As distributed by Ubuntu Gnome 3 offers only pain and frustration for power users. Maybe Mint fixes it. I don't know. Burned enough weekend time getting to where I'm happy so I'm sticking with OpenSUSE.

I'm not an Ubuntu hater. I absolutely love Ubuntu Server (which amounts to regression tested Debian) and use it for several production systems. I'll give it a few years, hope for some sort of upheaval among Gnome developers and then try again.

Dear Mark Shuttleworth,

You're product is being hurt by Gnome. Designing exclusively for novices and causal users will not work. Things that succeed emerge from the power user. Make them happy first. Then hide the things they need and love behind a simplified interface. Macs do not lack features or capabilities, they just avoid bothering lusers with complexity. That's why OS-X simultaneously pleases both grandma and Joe Programmer. Please Mark, you're smart enough to understand this. Stop suffering these Gnome guys and their tragically bad design. Linux really needs you to figure this out at some point.

I'd pay a license fee for it. I swear.

Your's sincerely,
The Grownups.

Re:This

[Nexus7]

You said:
> Maybe mint fixes it.

It well might, but last I looked (4 months ago), it was incomplete. No power support for notebooks (suspend on lid close, etc). These days it's Fedora KDE mix for me (further ahead than Kubuntu - for example, a working openconnect for Cisco VPN); and Lubuntu for friends and family I have to support.

Re:This

[stoolpigeon]

I just finished an install of Fedora 17 off the KDE spin disc last week - super smooth and things are running great. I'm not sure why everyone always automatically jumps from the idea of gnome to immediately considering Kubuntu.

And even though I run KDE - it's not like I had to give up any gnome applications that I like. Hard drive space is cheap.

Re:This

[Nimey]

Are you of the opinion that Linus isn't a grownup? He posted a rant about SuSE on his G+ page a few months back:

https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/1vyfmNCYpi5

Re:This

[mcgrew]

Dear Mark Shuttleworth,
You're product

Shuttleworth is NOT product! They outlawed slavery over a century ago!

Re:This

[Anonymous Coward]

Linus also complained loudly about Gnome's obstinate developers and their work.

Does it still have that piece of shit ...

[Anonymous Coward]

semantic desktop on it?
I swear it's worthless except to chew up CPU and read/write cycles.
The only thing worse is the Windows registry, and I'm not even sure the registry is worse.

Progress bars for file operation as option?

[hazem]

I really hope they've added back the ability to have file progress dialogs as an option to having them stacked up in the notifications area.

If I have multiple lengthly copy/move operations going on, I really prefer to have separate dialog windows to watch what's going on. It used to do that. And if I install Dolphin in Gnome, it still does it.

In fact, I'd just install something Gnome-based if I could just get it to figure out that when my laptop lid is closed, and my computer is plugged into my monitor, I don't want to use my laptop's monitor as an output; especially the default output.

Re:Progress bars for file operation as option?

[lbbros]

It's been there since ages: right click on the notification icon (the "i") and uncheck to show transfers.

Re:Progress bars for file operation as option?

[hazem]

That solves half of it. It's not in notification bar any more. But there are no status bars/windows anywhere now.

I'll see what happens when I reboot.

I appreciate your effort.

Vote for the return of --geometry to KDE!

[kmahan]

Vote for a command line feature from KDE 3 (and X in general) that was never implemented in KDE 4 -- "--geometry"

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=165355

Re:Vote for the return of --geometry to KDE!

[Anonymous Coward]

Vote for the return of KDE3. It was near perfect.

Re:Vote for the return of --geometry to KDE!

[unixisc]

It's there. Just as GNOME2 has forked into a new DE called MATE, KDE3 has forked into a new DE called Trinity

Fuck KDE and Gnome

[Anonymous Coward]

LXDE and/or OpenBox, for teh win!

Ever heard of Unity?

[unixisc]

Dear Mark Shuttleworth,

You're product is being hurt by Gnome. Designing exclusively for novices and causal users will not work. Things that succeed emerge from the power user. Make them happy first. Then hide the things they need and love behind a simplified interface. Macs do not lack features or capabilities, they just avoid bothering lusers with complexity. That's why OS-X simultaneously pleases both grandma and Joe Programmer. Please Mark, you're smart enough to understand this. Stop suffering these Gnome guys and their tragically bad design. Linux really needs you to figure this out at some point.

I'd pay a license fee for it. I swear.

Your's sincerely, The Grownups.

I think he knows. Hence the UX called Unity. Unfortunately, it too is geared exclusively towards novices and casual users. Just go w/ Kubuntu, Mint KDE or any of the KDE oriented distros out there.

Re:Ever heard of Unity?

[DiegoBravo]

Or go Xubuntu.

I'm using it after trying Kubuntu (until now I can't use its interface to configure the wifi nor the sound), after discarding Unity (one instance per app is their target), and the "Classic Gnome" (several little things unpolished, but better than the previous.)

Now I'm using Xubuntu (xfce) for about three months and I'm very happy with it.

Re:Ever heard of Unity?

[dmbasso]

I think he knows. Hence the UX called Unity. Unfortunately, it too is geared exclusively towards novices and casual users.

I'm neither novice nor casual user, and I disagree with you. While I couldn't stand the earlier versions (having switched to LXDE) the current version is quite good. With MyUnity and CompizConfig I could configure it the way I like it, there is no functionality missing from before.

Re:Ever heard of Unity?

[tommy8]

I use Xubuntu and it is great.

Wayland, Qt5, apps

[unixisc]

Any news on what extent has Wayland support been improved in KDE? Also, what is the state of Qt5 - is it good enough that KDE 5.0, when it surfaces, won't be the same sort of disaster that KDE4.0 was when it came out? Also, how are the different KDE specific apps - like Rekonq, Konqueror and so on?

Re:Wayland, Qt5, apps

[djfreestyler]

Wayland support is still ongoing, but has been put at a lower priority since Wayland itself is hardly stable yet. As for Qt5, it's supposed to be released somewhere at the end of summer. KDE will likely only start switching with Qt 5.1. Presumably it should take relatively little time to port to Qt 5, at least not nearly as much as Qt 3 to Qt 4. Of course, for KDE there is also the KDE Frameworks 5 work to consider. In the end, I am not sure what the impact will be. We will just have to wait and see when it is released.

Razor-qt

[unixisc]

I would love KDE if it would just stick to being a window manager. But everything related to that semantic desktop nonsense is perpetually buggy and knotify refuses to live with anything less than 100% of the CPU. These problems come and go with different releases, but they never entirely go away.

I have used KDE for many years on many computers, but I finally had to give up on it this year. Like so many open source projects, the bloat drove me away.

Why not look @ Razor-qt? It is an advanced, easy-to-use, and fast desktop environment based on Qt technologies. Looks like it's ideal for KDE users who think that KDE has grown too big and unwieldy. Some of the more recent Linux distros seem to include it.

too many choices?

[unixisc]

Usually, 2 choices are good. Maybe 3 or 4. But when you have so many - KDE, GNOME, LXDE, XFCE, Razor-qt, GNUSTEP, Enlightenment, Afterstep and many others, then it tosses up a debate about whether it's a bonanza of DEs or a plethora of DEs. Also, toss in the confusion that there is b/w Desktop Environment, and Window Managers (which don't necessarily fall in the above list), and you also have AfterStep, Blackbox, Fluxbox, IceWM, Openbox, WindowMaker, ScrotWM and others.

Why KDE rewrote 3.x

[Anonymous Coward]

You have to wonder if the KDE developers were all smoking crack when they decided to release a bug-infested broken crapware with 4.0 and totally destroyed their entire community?

They did it bc after three iterations, code was hopelessly patched, and very difficult to further develop; that's the same reason Netscape gave a decade ago for rewriting their codebase for Mozilla. I believe it, having used KDE since v. 1.0 beta. I watched it add feature after feature until it had become nearly fully bloated.

Read about the development goals of KDE/QT for 4 on google or duckduckgo.

KDE: You will win if you don't screw up!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

With Gnome 3 and Unity being absolute user interface disasters, and Windows 8 coming, all KDE needs to do is not screw up a great desktop environment, and it will win. I see a lot of interest in KDE now, as people abandon the other environments.

KDE DEVELOPERS: PLEASE DO NOT SCREW KDE UP!!! KEEP IT JUST LIKE IT IS NOW!!! YOU WILL WIN!!! Do not destroy KDE in the interests of "usability" or "design" or whatever. Just keep it the same.

I am a KDE convert - I used Gnome 2 for many years, but could not use Gnome 3, and switched. I like KDE better than any desktop environment I have ever used.

First needed changes

[Anonymous Coward]

Make it

- 50% smaller / lighter
- 50% less background daemon crap
- 50% more robust (KDE don't like long running sessions, that last months)
- 100% faster
- 100% more configurable

and we start talking. Until then I'm keeping my blackbox/fluxbox which is just INSTANT on all actions.

Suggestion: focus more on KDE apps

[unixisc]

One way for KDE to utilize its resources - once KDE5.0 is done - would be to have them focus on the various apps within KDE, and work on refining them. Do everything to improve that user experience. KDE has a whole host of applications, and the proper thing to do is make them reasons to want to prefer KDE to any of the other DEs - GNOME, LXDE, XFCE and so on. Also ensure that things like KDE Network manager, KDE Package manager are fully capable of handling as many package formats that are thrown at it, be it .deb, .rpm, .pac, .pbi, and so on.

The article is about a *KDE release*...

[WebCowboy]

...yet the article poster's commentary, the first post and most of the discussion threads seem to focus on GNOME 3 and other competitors.

I gave up using KDE pre-4.x and haven't really given it serious consideration since the reansition to 4. I know I've missed a lot of changes, improvements and so on so I am profoundly disappointed with the tone of discussion here. Not only is the first readable post an anti-GNOME troll/joke, at the time I read this it is rated "informative". What in God's name are the moderators here smoking? It is a JOKE--yes I do find it very funny but it is 100% information-free. Let's hear about what people LIKE about what is in KDE and what is coming. The signal-to-noise ratio is low even by /. standards of late.

If KDE designers rely so much on "user feedback" then where is the user feedback here? Is the only place to go for a lucid discussion of this desktop environment somewhere in the bowels of the kde.org website? If that is the case then they aren't really getting effective user feedback--they are getting "fanboi feedback", which over time might prove just as effective as "rodent pets [whispering] great design ideas to the developers". What does it have to offer to people to make it worth migrating from GNOME, or Unity or Xfce or LXDE or Enlightenment? In the case of ALL those alternatives if you talk to advocates they will lead off with the virtues of their chosen platforms (GNOME extenstions are a really cool concept, Xfce and LXDE are lightweight and present a familiar interface, Enlightenment brings eye candy to lower powered devices and so on).

Well, sorry, flaming GNOME is about the least effective way to get converts. When GNOME 3 came out and a good chunk of the user base went looking, KDE was NOT where they went. By and large, they chose to try Xfce over KDE and even to fork GNOME 2 or re-spin GNOME 3 with extensions. That users looking for an alernative would "re-invent the wheel" over flocking to KDE speaks volumes about either the lack of awareness of KDE or the lack of appeal of KDE itself, doesn't it?

Do KDE fanbois really not remember when KDE 4 came out how dreadful it was? It is essentially the SAME discussion that GNOME 3 detractors are having right now, right down to Linus Torvalds himself totally slamming it and publicly abandoning it for another desktop! And guess when so many people stopped really considering KDE? So if KDE 4 really IS so much better now that it is up to 4.9 please elabourate out there KDE fans. Stop telling me how much GNOME 3 sucks. I KNOW how much it "sucks" because I USE it (consequently I know how much it *rocks* in other ways). Well me why on my older desktop I should stop using Xfce...is KDE really an option there? Xfce seems like a nice transition for "GNOME 2 refugees" like me. Is KDE 4.9 going to be disruptive? If KDE is "too different" from GNOME 2 then I might as well keep using GNOME 3, or try MATE or Cinnamon or use Xfce more often. What are KDE's merits these days?

The only real impression I get is that KDE is a "tweaker's desktop"...that it is very featureful and can be tailored to do many things. However this doesn't convince me because:

* GNOME 3's extentions capability seems to have all the potential to enable tweaking a user needs (POTENTIAL...if/when the library of exensions grows it could be really good)
* I am not a desktop-tweaker. A dektop is to me an app launcher, consequently I don't miss many features. I kinda-sorta miss minimise buttons in GNOME 3 but I actually am surprised how rarely I actually used them (and there are extensions/settings to enable them anyways if you really need them). About the only things GNOME 3 still seriously need are some tuning of the default user experience and an "expert mode" control panel for those who DO like to tweak a bit more or for people to initially set up their environment in a new install. Overall I do not want to be aware of the desktop--I want it to stay out of my way.

So, is my opinion of KD