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Intel Builds On Top of Android, But Hedges On Open-Sourcing Improvements

Barence writes with this news as carried by PC Pro: "Intel claims it is making significant improvements to the multicore performance of Android — but isn't sure if it's willing to share them with the open-source community. Speaking to journalists in London, Intel's mobile chief Mike Bell said that Intel's engineers were making significant improvements to Android's scheduler to improve its multicore performance. 'Android doesn't make as effective use of multicore as it could,' he said. However, when pressed by PC Pro on whether those improvements would be shared with the open-source community and Intel's competitors, Bell remained non-committal. 'Where we are required to give back to open source, we do,' said Bell. 'In cases where it's not required to be open source, I'm going to think about it. I don't like doing R&D for competitors if they're not going to contribute themselves,' said Bell, before adding that 'in general, our philosophy is to give things back.'"

32 of 156 comments (clear)

  1. Altruism vs profit. by Dexter+Herbivore · · Score: 4, Insightful

    'Where we are required to give back to open source, we do... In cases where it's not required to be open source, I'm going to think about it. I don't like doing R&D for competitors if they're not going to contribute themselves,"

    I'm glad to see that altruism is still alive and well, when it's required and only based off other people's work.

    1. Re:Altruism vs profit. by dkleinsc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Also, anybody still wondering why the "viral" clauses of the GPL that require changes to be GPLed are important?

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    2. Re:Altruism vs profit. by Metabolife · · Score: 5, Interesting

      They're abiding by the terms of the GPL and considering giving more than is required. It's a company, not a charity.

    3. Re:Altruism vs profit. by Galestar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm glad to see that altruism is still alive and well, when it's required and only based off other people's work.

      If they decide not to actually use their research why should they help their competitors? The GPL does not require them to publish until they distribute and I have no qualms with this.

      --
      AccountKiller
    4. Re:Altruism vs profit. by Trepidity · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Hence why I think that the subset of BSD proponents who argue that the GPL is unnecessary, because many companies will give back just to be "good citizens" without legal requirements, are a bit too optimistic, in most cases.

    5. Re:Altruism vs profit. by Kjella · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They're abiding by the terms of the GPL and considering giving more than is required. It's a company, not a charity.

      Yet companies seem happy to take other people's charity in the form of BSD code. The GPL is more of a barter with "I'll scratch your back if you'll scratch mine" but I'll take that over giving gifts and getting little or none in return any day.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    6. Re:Altruism vs profit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yes. MIT, BSD and Apache and many more licenses do perfectly well without them.

      Haven't you been listening to Stalman? Those licenses only work now because the corporate interests want them to appear as viable alternatives. Once GPL is pushed out of the market, the fatcats will stop providing any support for open source and have any open source advocates sent to Guantanamo!

    7. Re:Altruism vs profit. by nine-times · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't think anyone questioned why they were there. The issue is, there are people who will refuse to build off of or contribute to GPL projects because they're somehow afraid of being compelled to contribute something they might not want to. So the question then becomes, are the contributions that are compelled by the license going to be greater than the contributions lost due to fear of being compelled?

      I'm not taking a side here. I don't have any idea what the answer is, but I suspect it's different for different projects and different communities.

    8. Re:Altruism vs profit. by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Also, anybody still wondering why the "viral" clauses of the GPL that require changes to be GPLed are important?

      No. The GPL is irrelevant in this situation. If they don't distribute the binary they are under no obligation to distribute the source. If Android was BSD instead it would make no difference here.

      Why is everyone bashing Intel? They are releasing everything they are required to. They have also released TONS of code that they were NOT required to release. I use OpenCV everyday, and it is a wonderful library, open sourced by Intel. This is just one example of many.

    9. Re:Altruism vs profit. by ZeroSumHappiness · · Score: 2

      Intel is a public company. They have a fiduciary duty to be profitable.

      FTFY. Public companies are allowed to look to the future and recognize how good citizenship can maintain and grow market share. In fact, giving up greater long term profits in exchange for short term gains can very easily be argued to be against their fiduciary duty.

    10. Re:Altruism vs profit. by neokushan · · Score: 2

      Why are people constantly quoting the GPL? Android is NOT GPL, it uses the Apache license. The linux Kernel is GPL, of course, but this isn't about a linux improvement, it's about an Android improvement. Android code means Intel doesn't have to release anything, ever.

      Considering that Intel is very much the underdog when it comes to Android (So far there's been one Intel powered Android phone on the market and it's very much a budget offering - a good one, but it's not going to take on the legions of ARM devices any time soon), pushing code that gives their competitors an advantage doesn't make a lot of business sense, at least not until they've established a good foothold.

      --
      +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
    11. Re:Altruism vs profit. by neokushan · · Score: 4, Informative

      Android is not GPL, it's Apache:

      http://source.android.com/source/licenses.html

      The linux Kernel is a different matter but this is an Android code change, not a Linux one. Intel doesn't have to release anything, ever.

      --
      +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
    12. Re:Altruism vs profit. by englishknnigits · · Score: 2

      The fear isn't that they might have to contribute, they have to contribute everything that so much as looks, smells, or hears anything related to a single line of GPL code. If I want to use a GPL library that (for example) has nice string parsing I have to publish the code to my entire multi-million dollar software project because of that one small component that I could write in a few days. That is completely ridiculous. The LGPL is a much better compromise in that you have to publish changes to the relevant code or module. If I use a nice string parsing LGPL module and add a few improvements, it isn't a big deal to share those improvements. I prefer the BSD license but at least LGPL is reasonable.

    13. Re:Altruism vs profit. by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Android is a perfect example of this - While the userspace Android stack is open source, the Apache license allows vendors to close the source and not release any modifications.

      Pretty much all of them do, except for those working on Google's reference devices (the Nexus series).

      Now I can understand closing up your "special sauce" modifications like custom UI skins and additional applications - but these companies close down their HALs and frequently change their HAL interfaces so they differ from the Android standards, making it difficult for those who want to run pure AOSP on a non-Nexus device to do so. There is no benefit to doing this - it only pisses people off if they are unhappy with your skin but are unable to change it.

      Samsung is especially bad in this regard - they will find every excuse they can to avoid providing source. For example:
      The wifi drivers for the ath6k chip in the Tab 7.0 Plus and Tab 7.7 are apparently dual-licensed (BSD/GPL) by Atheros. Samsung chose BSD - so as a result owners of those devices are stuck with shitty wifi that doesn't work well and can't be fixed.
      AT&T released an OTA update to Gingerbread for the Samsung Infuse. Two weeks later, Samsung still had not provided kernel source in compliance with the GPL. At this point, AT&T stopped providing the update due to issues with the touchscreen drivers. A week later, Samsung claimed they did not need to provide source for that release because the update was no longer being provided. This is in conflict with the GPL - Samsung DID provide binaries officially to many users, and they are legally obligated to provide source to those users.

      In a manner HIGHLY atypical for them given their corporate history, Sony seems to be the only company in the Android ecosystem that isn't paying lip service to open source. They provided ICS alphas and betas (INCLUDING kernel source) to the community, have provided technical documentation and assistance to the Cyanogenmod team that has been greatly instrumental in bringup of Cyanogenmod on Sony devices, have open-sourced their sensor HAL even when they didn't have to, and actually have a developer relations guy (Karl-Johan Dahlström) that does his job. (As opposed to Samsung's developer relations guy, who just cross-posts to XDA teasing of "awesome things to come" and completely failing to deliver, and tweeting source code release announcements for source code releases that have already been out for a week or more.) It's enough that there's a good chance my next phone will be a Sony despite a historical hatred of them for their past bad behavior in other business areas.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    14. Re:Altruism vs profit. by tlhIngan · · Score: 2

      Android is a perfect example of this - While the userspace Android stack is open source, the Apache license allows vendors to close the source and not release any modifications.

      Pretty much all of them do, except for those working on Google's reference devices (the Nexus series).

      Now I can understand closing up your "special sauce" modifications like custom UI skins and additional applications - but these companies close down their HALs and frequently change their HAL interfaces so they differ from the Android standards, making it difficult for those who want to run pure AOSP on a non-Nexus device to do so. There is no benefit to doing this - it only pisses people off if they are unhappy with your skin but are unable to change it.

      I think that's the point. You see, if everyone ran the same plain vanilla Android, there would be very little to differentiate a Samsung Galaxy IV SuperDuperPhone from an LG/Sony/Motorola/HTC Android phone. And manufacturers hate that with a passion. So they start out with skins and such to make users prefer their devices over the competitions.

      As for plain AOSP - they don't care - they'd prefer you don't and wouldn't mind keeping the bootloader locked. The only reason they're unlocking it is to attract the few extra people to their camp, hoping that the display of "openness" keeps them buying their phones and not the competition.

      Android is Apache because otherwise the companies really wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole - ignoring GPLv3 issues, the cellphone marketplace is really quite competitive and a change that makes your phone "better" is in high demand. The other alternative is they just plop some version of Android there, release the code, and let the Android experience suck because they won't want to commit to the R&D that helps competitors. (GPLv3 is enough of a scare to companies that use of GPLv3 software internally is restricted, and use of GPLv3 code is outright banned).

      That's the nature of the beast. Google is in competition with the iPhone (setting the overall look and feel of Android), but the Android manufacturers are in competition with each other and they want t make sure customers want to stay with them than switch. Having users switch to AOSP is not their desire, nor is having users remove the skins, custom ROMs, etc.

    15. Re:Altruism vs profit. by Microlith · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If I want to use a GPL library that (for example) has nice string parsing I have to publish the code to my entire multi-million dollar software project because of that one small component that I could write in a few days.

      Then write it. I fail to see what you're bitching about, other than to bitch that you can't jack someone else's code.

    16. Re:Altruism vs profit. by cheesybagel · · Score: 4, Informative

      Didn't you read the comment? The Intel spokesman simply said it is their policy not to release improvements if other people using the project don't usually do it. i.e. if Android was under a copyleft license Intel would release the changes. Intel contributes to a number of GPLed projects including the Linux kernel and they release the source for that.

    17. Re:Altruism vs profit. by cheesybagel · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's what happened with Wine. They switched to GPL as a response.

    18. Re:Altruism vs profit. by Immerman · · Score: 5, Informative

      Well, if you're working on a huge multi-million dollar project you probably don't have much incentive to use GPL components, do you? The price is too high. Either do the work yourself or go buy a license to something proprietary. Or as you point out, use something with a more permissive open source license.

      Different licenses have different goals. If you're looking to make money you use a proprietary license and sell usage rights. If you're looking to create a standard of some sort (platform, file format, whatever) then BSD, MIT, or full-on public domain is the way to go, because your goal is to get the software in as widespread use as possible and any restrictions will hinder that. If you're looking to build a free library of useful code, something like the LGPL may be better because your goal is to maximize the development speed of the library, letting folks improve on it but keep those improvements to themselves is counterproductive.

      The GPL was intentionally designed to create an expanding ecosystem of Free software. Not a toolset, not a standard, an ecosystem. To create software at all comparable to the well-funded proprietary alternatives you need some sort of edge. The GPL edge is take anything you want, from any project you want (from within the ecosystem of course), use it however you want, but your project MUST remain a part of the ecosystem. It's done a great job too - the ecosystem is thriving and there is a truly staggering amount of code out there that plenty of projects would love to use but can't because they aren't willing to join the ecosystem. That's fine.

      The GPL is an openly idealistic license, and that's not always be the most effective stance to take for all purposes, but if you use any open-source software or libraries at all it's rather hypocritical to call out the idealists for being extremists. Everything exists on a spectrum, if the GPL vanished tomorrow the the LGPL would be the "extremists", keep knocking out the "extremists" and pretty soon the public-domain projects that simply make a non-binding request for acknowledgment will be the "extremists". Having idealists as the extremists, much less idealists that have proven that it is still possible to turn a decent profit, gives a good reference point for everyone else. Personally I suspect we'd have a much poorer ecosystem of non-GPL open source software if the GPL folks weren't around to prove that even a hard-line stance is viable.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    19. Re:Altruism vs profit. by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2

      I haven't ever seen argue that. It's blatantly obvious that when there is no legal requirement to open code, fewer companies will do so (some still will where it benefits them, but obviously it's going to be an orders of magnitude difference).

      Not exactly. It is obvious that where there is a legal requirement to give back then everyone who modifies the software and distributes it will give back changes. It is obvious that where there is no legal requirement, some people who modify and distribute the software will not give back. It is also obvious that, where there is no legal requirement to give back, more people will modify and distribute the code. Finally, it's also obvious that some companies will give back modifications that they don't distribute (and therefore are not legally obliged to share in either case) because it reduces their burden.

      The question is whether it's better to have everyone in a smaller set or a subset of a larger set giving back. We've seen a number of high-profile companies, such as Apple, Yahoo, and Netflix, give back code when there was no legal obligation to do so (for example, we've just had a load of improvements to the networking code land in FreeBSD from Netflix because they're using it in their new deployments and really care about performance). We've had code contributions from both large and small companies who won't touch GPL'd code because of the uncertainty over what they'd be required to release: they're 90% sure it's fine, but don't want to risk the 10% when they don't have to. This is especially common for software that is developed in-house with a possibility of spinning out into a separate product later. Most of it stays in house, so the GPL wouldn't require releasing any code either.

      Finally, we've seen another category, which is companies using both BSDL and GPL code in house, but only contributing back changes to the BSDL parts because they are afraid of legal liability if they admit to using the GPL'd stuff.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    20. Re:Altruism vs profit. by Microlith · · Score: 2

      That's what we (professional company paid develops) do.

      Bitch incessantly and post as Anonymous Cowards on Slashdot?

    21. Re:Altruism vs profit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Worst analogy ever. Here's another, equally bad.

      Suppose a new virus was killing people all over the world like the plague
      in the old days. Mankind is seriously in danger of extinction. Ten teams
      of experts gather to try to design a vaccine. They work together for two
      years and finally one team comes up with the solution. The successful
      team's new boss comes up with the idea that the team should keep the
      recipe secret and produce the vaccine themselves.

      Should the team:
      1) Be bound to give the other teams access to the recipe
      2) Feel free to keep the recipe secret and profit of the dying world

      1 = GPL
      2 = MIT, BSD, Apache

    22. Re:Altruism vs profit. by citizenr · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If they are talking about a scheduler change, that is very likely a kernel modification.

      Android has its own scheduler, in java and everything. This is why you get FPS drops on dual core 1.5GHz phones while on home screen just sliding tabs around, or 100ms Audio LAG, or >100ms input lag..

      --
      Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
    23. Re:Altruism vs profit. by keeboo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's what we (professional company paid develops) do.

      Bitch incessantly and post as Anonymous Cowards on Slashdot?

      I think that by "paid developers" he actually meant "paid developers of proprietary code".

      There are people getting paid (directly or indirectly) to develop open source code.
      Those are the people who not only earn their living from software development, but also have cojones to have their code exposed to be whole world.
      Think about that: any mediocrity of your is made public and preserved for... pretty much forever. One has to respect such professional attitude.

      Many of the paid developers are simply listed as "independent individuals" (instead of from company XYZ) while not really being that, for reasons such as:

      a) That was an auxiliary project/task for the company/government and it does not care/want to be credited,
      b) Auxiliary project/task (as above) for the government, done by a public servant, for a project the government does not want to keep the burden of maintaining its own fork.
      Depending on your country (and its government and the way people deal with such situations - the latter being a cultural thing) it may be far simpler for licensing/copyright reasons to just pretend the code was done by the public servant in his own time, instead of dealing with a nightmarish bureaucracy.
      c) The developer is independent and the code is generic and may/will serve more than one paying client,
      d) The developer is a researcher and the paying part is interested on credits when it comes to papers, books and patents. -- Though, yeah, in this case
      e) ... etc

      'a' and 'b' happened to me oh-so-many times (though I really wish we had less complicated laws here, so for 'b' to be unnecessary).
      I know people in the 'd' case, though not to me: I never generated decent code from research and got funding, both at the same time.
      I know people fitting the 'c' case (most have their own small company). Not my case either.

    24. Re:Altruism vs profit. by Tough+Love · · Score: 2

      AMD released register level specs, that's even better.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
  2. Believe it when I see it by Baloroth · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The whole article reeks of PR and marketspeak. "Of course we can do better than everyone else", "no way is ARM going to beat us, our single core is better than their dual-core!"

    My response to Intel is to put up or shut up. Or be ignored, since I know they won't do the latter (they didn't get to be a 100+ billion dollar company by not marketing the hell out of their product).

    --
    "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
  3. He's talking about software that isn't shipping by WilliamBaughman · · Score: 3, Informative

    Mike Bell is talking about something he says Intel is"working on, not something that Intel is shipping or even something that he claims is totally functional and free of bugs. There's a big distinction between "we're greedy bastards" and "we're not releasing source to beta versions of undistributed software." I think the summary could reflect better.

    1. Re:He's talking about software that isn't shipping by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 2

      'In cases where it's not required to be open source, I'm going to think about it. I don't like doing R&D for competitors if they're not going to contribute themselves,'

      The summary was correct. Read it again.

  4. Someone needs to tell him the story of stone soup by cybervegan · · Score: 2

    Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_soup Intel of all comnpanies should know how this works.

  5. Ya because Intel's comiler is shit! by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2

    Oh wait, no, the other one, I mean it is THE shit. The ICC produces the most optimized code out there. It's amazing when you see a test of compilers there is some back and forth among tests, with newer compilers generally being faster than older ones (like Visual Studio 6 is pathetically bad VS 10 is pretty good). Then, above them all, is the ICC. On every test.

    So know what? I'm going to say Intel knows something about optimization, perhaps more than anyone else in the world. They may well have some good optimizations.

    Also your perception of Intel as just some marketing company is rather stupid. Intel does tons of R&D, real groundbreaking R&D, they throw billions at it where other companies whine abut the cost. Know who has the ONLY commercial 22nm lithography process in the world currently? Intel. They have better tech because they threw tons of money and man hours at it.

    They market their shit of course, but acting like what they do is marketing and that they don't do tons of R&D and deliver some amazing products is stupid.

  6. NDA Encumberment? Bigger picture issues? by aaronb1138 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I wonder if some of the issue is actually Intel vetting approval from their legal department. A lot of people like to point at Intel engineering and point and say look at all the cool stuff they holding back and only offering as binary blobs. The reality is that their middle management business to business side keeps letting 3rd parties write horrific terms into contracts.

    I know with Atom CPU development that the GPU is extremely encumbered by NDAs with PowerVR which prevent Intel from releasing any decent drivers for Linux or Android. There was even one support technician who commented on the fact that he compiled working Android x86 graphics drivers for GMA 500/600 based hardware only to find out from his boss that they could not be released because parts of the code tree where contaminated by bits of PowerVR code. The technician in question goes by "pinebud77" on YouTube and just "PineBud" on pocketables.com. At the time, about 2 years ago, Intel then and up through now, has had to completely rewrite their drivers for GMA graphics on both Windows and *nix platforms due to bad legal agreements. They've had to go so far as to reverse engineer drivers they had already paid for. It has even been questioned how much this killed Meego development in early stages.

    I suspect there might be similar bad deals with partners hurting Intel here. The gist I have gotten is that they don't want to withhold drivers or technology, but even when they back up a Brinks truck of cash, they get screwed on contract terms by 3rd parties. The management folks don't have any clue why they might need rights to code they buy from Imagination Technology, Tungsten, or others.

    I know the article is related to multi-threading CPU processes, which Intel definitely has a lot of their own engineering invested, but I wouldn't take the "I don't like doing R&D for competitors if they're not going to contribute themselves," as the sole reason. Further, seriously consider the current x86 vs ARM environment. If you look at the article comments and forums at many other tech news sites (namely arstechnica.com and theverge.com) there are a LOT of relatively ignorant people who seem to think various ARM architectures are vastly superior in computing power to x86 and trying to turn it into some kind of architecture holy war on the scale of AMD vs. Intel vs. Cyrix debates of years past. People who actually think that ARM has equivalent processing power to low end i5 CPUs, when top end quad core ARM CPU's can't even match the FPU performance of 4 year old ATOM single cores. It's even harder to explain to those crowds the massive issues ARM has with scaling and multitasking due to huge bandwidth to IO busses bottlenecks. All of these factors give Intel very good reasons not to share their undertakings with competitors who have brainwashed enough masses to no longer need to compete on merits. I'll give various ARM implementations the performance to battery use crown all day, it's a great CPU for something like a smartphone. When I hear derpity derp about ARM for high utilization clusters though, I vomit a bit in my throat.

    1. Re:NDA Encumberment? Bigger picture issues? by Microlith · · Score: 2

      It has even been questioned how much this killed Meego development in early stages.

      No impact, I imagine. There were Xorg drivers for PowerVR, at least on ARM. But MeeGo wasn't being pushed on their mobile chips with the PowerVR GPU, only on ones backed by their own IGP.

      Nokia did far, far more to kill MeeGo than PowerVR ever did.