Russian Programmers Dominate At Google Code Jam

none of that seems surprising by O('_')O_Bush · 2012-06-12 00:54 · Score: 2, Insightful

Take a look at where the best compression algorithms come. Almost all come from former Soviet bloc countries. India isn't surprising either, as many American companies have found out from outsourcing.

Or these results don't reflect anything about the quality of the programmers from a country, and rather the bias of who found out about the Code Jam (lots of everyday Joe programmers, vs those in-the-loop).

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while(1) attack(People.Sandy);

Re:none of that seems surprising by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · 2012-06-12 00:59 · Score: 5, Interesting

What I find interesting is the relative cull rates. As might be expected for a large country with some major IT activity, India was well represented at the starting round, but the subsequent rounds knocked 3 factors of ten off the total. Russia and Belarus both only took about one factor of ten, and the US around two...

Numbers per-capita, much less absolute numbers, aren't wildly interesting; but those are some fairly dramatic differences in attrition...
Re:none of that seems surprising by DemomanDeveloper · 2012-06-12 01:15 · Score: 5, Interesting

Russia dominates in technical computer stuff because during the last decades of Soviet Union, the government greatly pushed and spent money for computer education. It's one of the things that actually worked in Soviet Union's communism.

There's a reason why StarForce (the notorious almost impossible to crack DRM), sophisticated malware, one of the best antivirus software (Kaspersky), cracking of software and games and other highly technical stuff and algorithms originate from Russia and other CIS countries. The fall of Soviet Union led to tons of highly capable programmers without work and income, so some went to dark side while others spend time on good things. Nevertheless, both sides are filled with highly capable people, all thanks to Soviet Union's appreciation to computer technology.
Re:none of that seems surprising by gutnor · 2012-06-12 01:18 · Score: 4, Interesting

There is also the motivation of the contestant. I would expect a lot of Indian to enlist just with the hope to increase their creds or make their resume stand out, that would mean a bigger proportion of lower skill applicant.
Re:none of that seems surprising by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 01:24 · Score: 0

To name a good thing Russian programmers spent time on, check out Space Rangers 2. I've spent about 500 hours playing it. It is suuuch an awesome game. Just throwing that out there.
Re:none of that seems surprising by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 01:41 · Score: 5, Insightful

Hell even the Indians educated here seem to be fairly useless. Adept at rote learning, useless as engineers. It's cultural.
Re:none of that seems surprising by vlm · 2012-06-12 01:43 · Score: 4, Informative

Having (probably) visited your country, I can verify that your gasoline costs more per liter than ours does per gallon (a gallon is "around" four liters)
Also I've seen your (speaking generally) newspapers and you guys have/had crazy import duties and VAT taxes on cars, so ownership and maintenance is very expensive compared to here. Finally your equivalent of the DMV has teeth... you won't allow cars on the road that here would be considered in worn but usable shape.
The feds (well, the GSA) lets us claim 55.5 cents per mile of expense on our cars when used for govt (and presumably business purposes).. This is hyperinflated such that even land barge SUV drivers with horrible insurance rates and expensive maintenance still make a microscopic profit, so needless to say my domestic subcompact with cheap (married dude) insurance makes me a profit of something like a quarter per mile.
I'm estimating it costs me about 30 cents per mile to drive here, and in your country it approaches or exceeds one euro per mile, so it's going to be difficult financially to justify spending 6 euro to deliver a 99 cent hamburger three miles away.
Also our cuisine sucks but its almost designed for a delay in delivery, whereas a lot of the stuff I've eaten in Europe would not benefit by sitting around for 15 minutes and being bounced around in a car before eating.

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"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Re:none of that seems surprising by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 01:46 · Score: 0

I know this is offtopic, but why does so many restaurants and fast food chains in USA have home delivery when my European country doesn't? At most we have pizza, and it costs tons for delivery.
Several reasons I can think of... The two main ones that spring to my mind:
Car ownership and operation is much more expensive in most of Europe (gas prices are more than double in the Netherlands compared to the US for example). This would be somewhat compensated for by the (average) higher density of population, so the food services have less far to go, but still. It just makes the whole thing much more expensive.
I would also dread having to deliver meals in my home country of the Netherlands. Traffic is so dense, far too often you would get significant delays trying to deliver the food. Im sure this would be similar in the center of big American cities, but we are talking averages.
Finally... did you actually check properly? Again using the Netherlands as example, there were a surprising amount of fast food places that would deliver to my house (snackbars, shoarma joints, pizza places and even two Chinese restaurants) - presumably because the scooters they would typically use, negate those two points I made above. But they would only deliver within a fairly short radius of course.
Re:none of that seems surprising by vlm · 2012-06-12 01:50 · Score: 1

I'm estimating it costs me about 30 cents per mile to drive here,
And I successfully Fed that up pretty badly about 29% low.
Actual figures over the past 12 years are:
25e3 purchase / 125e3 miles + 10e3 maintenance / 125e3 miles + 3 bucks per gallon average over the life of the car / 28 MPG average + $1000 per year insurance / 125e3 miles / 12 years owned = about 39 cents per mile.

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"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Re:none of that seems surprising by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 02:41 · Score: 0

I know this is offtopic, but why does so many restaurants and fast food chains in USA have home delivery when my European country doesn't? At most we have pizza, and it costs tons for delivery.
I would hypothesize it's a combination of the price of gas (which is obscenely cheap in the US) and a culture of indoctrinated laziness. It's not 'normal' in the states to walk anywhere. Most of their cities are built to live and die by the automobile. So much so that some don't even have sidewalks. Whereas Europe everything is walked or walkable to. The train, the store, work (via the train if necessary). Part of this is simple geography, Europe is smaller and more densely packed than the US and Canada, but it's also partly due to the US obsession with fundamentalism. I'm not talking about religion, but life in general. North America doesn't do moderation. When the US does anything they go so completely mental for it that it causes problems.
Independence (war, and each state maintains it's own army, on top of the national armed forces).
Old wars.
Total War.
Prohibition.
Total War.
Outlawing recreational drugs. (Aka prohibition on drugs, war on drugs)
Commercial War.
Cold War.
Commercial War.
War on hunger.
Commercial War.
War on terror.
Commercial War.
Yeah they just can't get enough. On the one hand this can be terrifying to deal with if you have something they want. On the other hand, if the rest of the world can convince them to become environmentalists, I expect the US would have that problem solved world wide (at the end of a nuke if necessary) in about 5 years.
Re:none of that seems surprising by TheLink · 2012-06-12 03:32 · Score: 1

In my country they usually use motorcycles and not cars for that sort of food delivery. But "cost of death" is cheaper here I guess...
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Re:none of that seems surprising by TapeCutter · 2012-06-12 03:39 · Score: 2

Probably more to do with labour/insurance laws, I noticed a distinct lack of home delivery in the UK. Here is Australia home delivery is common, the job pays a pitance for the privalege of wearing out your own car, I assume it's the same in the US.

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And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Re:none of that seems surprising by Larryish · 2012-06-12 07:09 · Score: 1

The Indians were at a disadvantage.
Russian coders are like machines.
Why?
Because in Soviet Russia, computer programs YOU!
Re:none of that seems surprising by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 07:22 · Score: 0

And also racist :)
Re:none of that seems surprising by mehrotra.akash · 2012-06-12 08:39 · Score: 1

Almost all come from former Soviet bloc countries. India isn't surprising either, as many American companies have found out from outsourcing. Or these results don't reflect anything about the quality of the programmers from a country, and rather the bias of who found out about the Code Jam (lots of everyday Joe programmers, vs those in-the-loop).
For India, look at the GSoC numbers as well. India and USA seem to dominate it
Re:none of that seems surprising by ElusiveJoe · 2012-06-12 10:01 · Score: 1

You could also name Heroes of Might and Magic V, King's Bounty (the remake), The Void, IL-2 series and Cut the Rope.
Re:none of that seems surprising by shutdown+-p+now · 2012-06-12 10:24 · Score: 3, Informative

Russia dominates in technical computer stuff because during the last decades of Soviet Union, the government greatly pushed and spent money for computer education. It's one of the things that actually worked in Soviet Union's communism.
I wouldn't say that USSR had a lot of money spend on computer education. I grew up there, and the first time I saw a computer was when my father took me to his work, and that was already after I was in school.
What Soviets did spend a lot of money on, though, was education in hard sciences in general, but especially math, with physics a close second. If your brains were wired for it, you would get noticed pretty quickly and moved to a specialized school where you'd have 15 hours of math per week by the time you graduated. From there, a fast track to the appropriate degree in the uni, free so long as you can pass the entry exams (which, by that time, you usually could with ease).
Re:none of that seems surprising by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 10:50 · Score: 0

I'll never forget the first time I visited [a particular SE Asian country]. The first week I drove by two separate gruesome motorcycle accidents, with the riders smeared all over the pavement.
It's tempting to blame the motorcycle riders because of their constant lane splitting, and stacking people 3 high on those bikes. But then you realize that the car drivers have a nasty habit of oscillating between lanes, or riding on the painted divider in order to take up two lanes (I presume as some defense against the other guy oscillating into your lane).
And all of this is totally unconscious, unlike, say, a New York or Massachusetts driver who is intently focused on fucking every other commuter on the roader. In Asia all of these insane and puzzling habits are just that, unconscious habits. It's all well choreographed, except the choreography is a tad more difficult to maintain--with a higher error rate--than if people just fucking stayed in their damn lane.
Re:none of that seems surprising by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 11:08 · Score: 0

It's cultural, but not in the way you seem to insinuate.
In the United States, people who would generally suck at programming are channeled, largely through self-selection, into other pursuits. In India and the Indian diaspora, the emphasis is on technology and business. Everybody is trying to program, or do biology, or be an executive. That means the talent quotient in the pool of participants will pulled down. So even if an Indian computer science education is superior to an American education, the overall output will be crappier. Garbage in, garbage out.
It also doesn't help that Indians in general have an exaggerated opinion of themselves. Notwithstanding the hyperbole in our media about how we coddle our children, Americans generally more accurately self-assess their proficiency in a subject area. Indians, not so much. Same thing with Singaporeans, Israelis, etc. I think that's because of the size and socio-economic composition of those populations (India is huge, but the upper and middle class of Indians that westerners are familiar with is a tiny fraction of the overall population, and well insulated from the wider culture). You could see the same phenomenon with Americans, too. In fact, it's common in rich communities. A student from a rich family or community will have an exaggerated idea about his proficiency, or will be at least less intimidated by someone with superior skills. But because other people respond to how you perceive yourself, that often translates into success later on.

It's the cold and Isolation by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 00:56 · Score: 0

When you're stuck in a room and have a creative spirit, coding is a good avenue.

Re:It's the cold and Isolation by v1 · 2012-06-12 00:58 · Score: 4, Insightful

When you're stuck in a room and have a creative spirit, coding is a good avenue.
Then computers in the prisons should be a good rehab route?

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I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
Re:It's the cold and Isolation by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 01:22 · Score: 0

They probably would be.
Re:It's the cold and Isolation by DemomanDeveloper · 2012-06-12 01:22 · Score: 5, Insightful

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but yes, people should have access to computers in prison. Unlike in USA, many other countries do actually try to get prisoners back to being normal, productive people instead of just punishing them.

Now, internet access and such is another point because that could be used to communicate with other criminals outside.. but having a library of programming books and personal computers for prisoners would be a good way to change those people. Programming books being just example, there could be other things too. The main point being; yes, it is much better to try to get those prisoners life back on track instead of just punishing them.
Re:It's the cold and Isolation by v1 · 2012-06-12 02:07 · Score: 1, Flamebait

but yes, people should have access to computers in prison.
I'm just one of those old-fashoned type people that think that prison should be a strong deterrent against breaking the law. Violate someone else's rights and find yourself in a hole with all your privileges taken away for awhile.
As it is now, go to prison, get free health care, free internet access, free weight room, free cable tv, free library, free sports, free laundry, free education, free housing, free food, free clothing, free dental.
Must be nice. This is deterrent to commit crime? Sounds more like incentive to!
Now some of that I can see as helpful to rehabilitation. But some of it is spoiling them (weight room, cable tv) and a lot of the rest they should have to work for while they're there instead of putting the tab on my taxes. They violate my rights, then the state charges me for it, lovely system we have here.

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I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
Re:It's the cold and Isolation by DogDude · 2012-06-12 03:12 · Score: 2

Most people in the US are not in prison for "violating someone else's rights". Most are in there for non-violent drug offenses that have violated nobody's rights.

Your lack of sympathy is absolutely shocking. You seriously think that people should be locked up for decades (mostly for drug charges), with no access to exercise or entertainment? That people should be forced to sit in concrete rooms for 20 years at a time? Of course, it's all about YOU, of course, but still. This level of crass disregard for human life is shocking.

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I don't respond to AC's.
Re:It's the cold and Isolation by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 03:44 · Score: 0

If prison is the only reason you keep from committing crime, you've got bigger problems.
Re:It's the cold and Isolation by TapeCutter · 2012-06-12 03:51 · Score: 1

Sheesh, what a self-righteous douche. If you're ever inside I predict you will get the kind of isolation treatment you wish on others, for your own protection.

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And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Re:It's the cold and Isolation by v1 · 2012-06-12 04:05 · Score: 2

Most people in the US are not in prison for "violating someone else's rights". Most are in there for non-violent drug offenses that have violated nobody's rights.
The best stats I could find quickly are here, and show drug offenses at (a somewhat surprising to me) 48%. Lump in immigration at 12% and you've covered most of the non-rights-violators at 60%.
Then add up Weapons, Explosives, Arson, Robbery, Burglary, Larceny, Property Offenses, Extortion, Fraud, Bribery, Homicide, Aggravated Assault, and Kidnapping Offenses and get about 30% of the population. So it's not the majority, but it's certainly not small.
But now that the dry statistics are actually quantified, lets look at "rights violation". How many of those drug offenses are for users, and how many are for dealers and trafficers? It doesn't say in that chart, unfortunately. I would classify dealers and trafficers as rights violators, though you may not. They're certainly AREN'T in the "not hurting anyone but themselves" camp. Your turn to go dig up some statistics.
(and this is ignoring the reality that a lot of druggies fund their habit using predatory behavior, and have a lot of collateral damage on their friends and family - saying "they're not hurting anyone but themselves" doesn't cut it when their kids haven't eaten a square meal in months because mommy has to have her crack)

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I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
Re:It's the cold and Isolation by DogDude · 2012-06-12 05:24 · Score: 1

Drug dealers and traffickers don't have anything to do with your rights. What other people choose to buy or sell or do with their bodies is none of your business, and certainly doesn't warrant them being locked up like animals for most of their lives. The US is supposed to be about "freedom". Instead, we have more people in prison than any other country on the planet, and most of it is for doing things that have no impact, whatsoever, on you or your precious "rights" that you pretend are violated. It's stupid, and it's savage. Congratulations for helping to make the world look a bit more like Fahrenheit 451.

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I don't respond to AC's.
Re:It's the cold and Isolation by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 06:29 · Score: 0

but yes, people should have access to computers in prison.
I'm just one of those old-fashoned type people that think that prison should be a strong deterrent against breaking the law.

Except study upon study upon study has indicated that it does NOT work. Harsher punishments, in general, result in more recidivism. So instead of a deterrant, what ends up happening is that people are turned into career criminals. Great system that is. I think I'll go with a system that tries to prevent crime instead. Certainly, there should be a deterrant, but how much more of a deterrant than the death penalty can you get, and still capital crimes do get committed... There is a very swift point of diminishing returns.
And of course these maximum security prisons and long sentences are expensive in and of themselves (estimates vary, but $30k per prisoner / year seems an average http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States#Cost) . You honestly think that giving prisoners access to some basic computers and a library makes a meaningful difference in the cost, per prisoner, per day? Compared to the costs of the facilities, the guards and the minimal requirements (food, healthcare) that they'd need anyway? Or do you seriously advocate letting prisoners die of preventable diseases?
Do some googling if you like, but http://www.eaplstudent.com/component/content/article/165 is a good starting point - especially the references section.
Re:It's the cold and Isolation by alexo · 2012-06-12 06:43 · Score: 1

When you're stuck in a room and have a creative spirit, coding is a good avenue.
Then computers in the prisons should be a good rehab route?
Yes, that's why they will be opposed.
In the land of for-profit prisons, the last thing you want is rehabilitation.
Re:It's the cold and Isolation by smithmc · 2012-06-12 07:05 · Score: 1

but yes, people should have access to computers in prison.
I'm just one of those old-fashoned type people that think that prison should be a strong deterrent against breaking the law. Violate someone else's rights and find yourself in a hole with all your privileges taken away for awhile.
I would think that, if you want what's best for the innocent, law-abiding citizenfolk, what we should really be after is whatever measures will minimize the risk of recidivism - after all, it's too late to prevent the original crime. So do you have data that shows that a "deterrence" policy works best to reduce recidivism? Or are you really after some kind of righteous "retribution"?

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Downmodding is the refuge of the weak. Don't downmod, make a better argument!
Re:It's the cold and Isolation by Rasperin · 2012-06-12 07:16 · Score: 1

Yes and no, what someone puts in there body should be of nobody elses concern. If they are a bad parent because of this (such as abusive or neglectful) than like any other parent that falls in this category their kids should be taken away. If they are driving intoxicated on lsd, they should get a DUI, if they show up to work high as hell, it should be treated like showing up to work drunk. Alcohol is no different than most opiates, speed, etc etc etc. However, like a functioning drunk, you can become a functioning addict.

So from that point of view, a supplier doesn't force you to take meth, heroin, crack. They don't hunt you down and ask if you want a hit, if the government taxed the hell out of it and sold it legally like they do alcohol, the fda could regulate it which means a drop in drug related crime (turf wars, such as those for alcohol running in the 30's), and cleaner safer drugs. Also means more money to pharmaceutical lobbyists (not that I support these guys, but it's more amercian jobs). It would also drop the prison population by apparently 48% (I thought it was in the 70's to be honest, so that shocks me to) which means half the money we spend each year on prisons. http://money.cnn.com/magazines/business2/business2_archive/2006/12/01/8394995/index.htm (37billion, much lower than I expected). There's also the sociological effect to take into account, legalizing it would make the drug trade less "cool". It doesn't mean we won't have overdoses, addiction, neglect, etc. But we already have all that with alcohol, so how is this really different?

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Re:It's the cold and Isolation by farble1670 · 2012-06-12 11:56 · Score: 1

(and this is ignoring the reality that a lot of druggies fund their habit using predatory behavior, and have a lot of collateral damage on their friends and family - saying "they're not hurting anyone but themselves" doesn't cut it when their kids haven't eaten a square meal in months because mommy has to have her crack)
then the charge should have been child abuse not drug use.
Re:It's the cold and Isolation by ub3r+n3u7r4l1st · 2012-06-12 16:32 · Score: 1

In America, religious beliefs and racism trumps expert studies.

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New Economic Perspectives
Re:It's the cold and Isolation by Ambush · 2012-06-12 16:57 · Score: 1

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but yes, people should have access to computers in prison. Unlike in USA, many other countries do actually try to get prisoners back to being normal, productive people instead of just punishing them. Now, internet access and such is another point because that could be used to communicate with other criminals outside.
Actually, you might be surprised. Some prisons do provide web and email access, albeit extremely filtered, logged, etc. The issue at hand is that the vast majority of work-place jobs require some interaction with a keyboard and screen, and that without adequate experience with computers then ex-offenders' job prospects include only labouring work and similar. The cost of recidivism is far higher than the cost of rehabilitation (assuming the offender wants to be rehabilitated, of course).

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There are 10 kinds of people; those who know ternary, those who don't, and those now hunting for a dictionary.
Re:It's the cold and Isolation by tkalfigo · 2012-06-13 07:13 · Score: 1

Your way of thinking probably explains as well why the US is #1 in prisoners-per-capita.
Imprisonment removes your freedom. This should be punishment enough. Once you are in there, the idea is not to get you even more agitated or depressed. Rehabilitation comes with providing perhaps even things to which you didn't have access in the first place and led you to crime.
Of course in theory it's easy to generalize and philosofize. But still, trying to make a troubled individual's environment troubling, really has poor chances of solving the trouble.
Re:It's the cold and Isolation by v1 · 2012-06-13 07:50 · Score: 1

Imprisonment removes your freedom. This should be punishment enough. Once you are in there, the idea is not to get you even more agitated or depressed.

Compared to how some people live on the street, prison is living it large. I've read numerous accounts of people getting out of jail, and deliberately doing something to get thrown back into jail. (like walking into a bank with a gun, get handed some cash, and wait for the police) For many, the tradeoff of freedom of movement is a welcome trade for all that the prison system provides. Or at least "its not that bad". Prison needs to be something that people fear ending up in and factor into their actions.
It's just lost a lot of it's "deterrent factor". I still hear people comparing "regular" prison to federal prison. Apparently there's still a difference, and criminals weigh their activities more heavily when "it's federal".
So yes, I'd rather see them out in the yard breaking rocks than playing volleyball. I don't think that attitude fills the prisons, I think that helps empty them because people make different decisions because they have a stronger wish to avoid prison.
And I don't like the state giving prisoners better benefits than members of the public. Take away some of the amenities of prison life and redirect that funding toward say, community activity such as boys and girls club, job training, rehab, public schooling, etc. That will help reduce the problem of prison population from both ends of the stick. Get youth on a better track to begin with, and instill a stronger wish to say OUT of prison. And if they ever wind up there, never want to go back.

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I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.

I don't get it by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 00:58 · Score: 5, Funny

Why are you looking at nationality? What are you trying to prove? Is this the 1936 Summer Olympics?

Re:I don't get it by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 01:07 · Score: 0

Not looking at nationality. Just looking at the immense Indian talent...
Re:I don't get it by vlm · 2012-06-12 01:13 · Score: 5, Interesting

Why are you looking at nationality? What are you trying to prove? Is this the 1936 Summer Olympics?
Differing national funding priorities in education Appear to result in differing results in a competition leading to Very Pointed Questions about those funding priorities.
Frankly I'm flooring the Indians did so miserably. What is wrong with their educational system WRT CS/IT? On thing is sure, the winning solution is not just throwing money on the table, Russia was an economic disaster when these competitors were growing up and learning. The Russians are doing "something" the Indians are not doing.
In a way it IS very much like the olympics, although more cold war era than 1936 era.

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"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Re:I don't get it by mblase · 2012-06-12 01:29 · Score: 2

Why are you looking at nationality? What are you trying to prove? Is this the 1936 Summer Olympics?
Obviously, if one nation has a substantially higher proportion of winners in a competition like this, it suggests there's something in the national culture that encourages it. Other nations would like to know what that is. It's not pride, it's post-game analysis.
Re:I don't get it by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 01:29 · Score: 0

That Russians are going to get H-1Bs and take you jerbs!!!!
Re:I don't get it by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 01:49 · Score: 0

I've observed the same thing in the field, too. I consider an Indian with a Masters in CS/IT to be roughly equal to an American with a Bachelors in CS/IT.
One Indian co-worker of mine (with a Masters in CS, Indian) explained that he never had to do any lab work or actual coding. He even postulated that some Indians with a CS degree may have never had the opportunity to even touch a computer until after graduation. It was all working from books, chalk boards, pen and paper.
Re:I don't get it by vlm · 2012-06-12 01:57 · Score: 2

Just to be fair CS is big O notation and calculating algorithmic efficiency, Knuth's books, so its possible to be a decent computer scientist without a computer. You need calculus and a blackboard a lot more than you need a computer.
But doing IT code monkey stuff is utterly impossible without hardware and labs.

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"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Re:I don't get it by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 02:09 · Score: 0

It may be that Indians are in-general poorer at self-assessment, so many unqualified people entered.
Re:I don't get it by Alex+Belits · 2012-06-12 02:12 · Score: 1

That Russians are going to get H-1Bs and take you jerbs!!!!
I already did (in 1994). I also count for both Russia (where I studied) and Belarus (where I was born and studied, too).

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Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Re:I don't get it by P-niiice · 2012-06-12 02:21 · Score: 2

The Russians are doing "something" the Indians are not doing.

You mean running multiple scam rings and botnets and fleecing the entire internet?
Re:I don't get it by SchroedingersCat · 2012-06-12 03:06 · Score: 1

Just to be fair CS is big O notation and calculating algorithmic efficiency, Knuth's books, so its possible to be a decent computer scientist without a computer. You need calculus and a blackboard a lot more than you need a computer.
"Scientist" - may be. "Engineer" - hell no. You wouldn't want a surgeon who knows the theory but never practiced it to operate on you, would you?
Re:I don't get it by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 03:11 · Score: 0

Frankly I'm flooring the Indians did so miserably. What is wrong with their educational system WRT CS/IT?
That's very simple. Corruption. And the devaluation of "qualifications" and "certificates" earned through such a system.
Honestly, not trolling. Please check it out for yourselves.
Re:I don't get it by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 03:58 · Score: 0

It could degrade to that kind of talk but what is currently being discussed is education systems and the effects of cultural values on software development.
Re:I don't get it by TapeCutter · 2012-06-12 05:17 · Score: 4, Interesting

"Scientist" - may be. "Engineer" - hell no.
Agree, I'm degree qualified as a "computer scientist", my job title is "senior software engineer", my job is "code management" which is basically a battle hardened code monkey gaurding the CVS repository. Also to be fair I think CS (and the closely related field of Operations Research) are about discovering, generalising, and refining abstracted algrothims, the latter being the only activity where big O notation is applicable, and even then only as a convinient measuring tool to compare ideas. Compared to most people I meet outside of work I'm a computer/maths 'genius', one major advantage of a formal CS/OR education is that I know that I'm not even close to the bottom rung on that ladder.

In other words, the difference between my job and Alan Turing's job is that given time he could learn to do my job.

As for Russian coders I work with quite a few on a daily basis, they are fast, acurate, defensive coders, they also have a culture where pragmatisim and the ability to improvise are valued traits.

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And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Re:I don't get it by vlm · 2012-06-12 05:26 · Score: 3, Insightful

"Scientist" - may be. "Engineer" - hell no. You wouldn't want a surgeon who knows the theory but never practiced it to operate on you, would you?
It would be like advertising for "heart surgeon" and specifying BS in bio, premed, or biochem are OK. They could crosstrain, but its kinda inappropriate. Its just as dumb to ask for a CS degree to swap backup tapes, pull cat5, and run "ghost". They could probably learn to do it, but...
Its a huge problem with computer jobs. If construction trades were run like computers, we'd confuse architects, structural engineers, building roofers, masons, CSI arson investigators, janitors, and maintenance dudes and no one would consider that unusual because they're all building workers and all building workers are the same, except that we'd include endless name brands and specs in each job description "Job title is plumber, must have minimum 25 years experience using 2010 model year craftsman 12 oz carpentry hammer model number 124351-3, along with 120 git sandpaper operation, 100 grit and 150 grit sandpaper operators need not apply, architect degree preferred, and TIG pipeline welding certificate optional"

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"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Re:I don't get it by vyvepe · 2012-06-12 07:30 · Score: 1

It is also about proving your algorithms do what you want. Why would you do it manually when you can do it in theorem provers like COQ, Agda, ... And building such proofs is very similar to programming ... and mostly harder. It is also about programming language design, and type systems.
I doubt one can be a good in CS without a computer.
Re:I don't get it by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 10:27 · Score: 0

Last time I checked your blog you were complaining about being jobless.
Re:I don't get it by Alex+Belits · 2012-06-12 17:19 · Score: 1

Last time you checked my blog in 2007.

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Re:I don't get it by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-13 12:23 · Score: 0

I have an Indian friend who is a Network Engineer, and he was able to explain it to me. I lost contact with him for about a year when he started his Comp Sc degree, as the University he went to had no computers. (I kid you not). It wasn't till his brother gave him a laptop that he was able to get online again. But, a lot of their Universities can't afford computers, so they learn from text books. Some of their better Universities do have computers, but the problem comes when you go to a University that doesn't have one, and you're doing Comp. Sc.
I had another friend in the Phillipines (I've lost contact with her over the years), but at her University, the way it worked was the lecturer read the text book out from the front of he class, and all the students wrote like crazy (copyright infringement anyone?). Anyway, she had to do her Comp Sc Degree that way as no one could afford the text book themselves, and the Uni had no computer.
So, though they graduate with a lot of head knowledge, most of it hasn't been put to practical use with a real computer. I asked the Phillipina friend how they knew the code worked if they hadn't run it, and she said that the lecturer's assistance 'just knew based on the code'. This statement made my hair stand on end, as I've seen heaps of programs where it was near impossible to find the bug just by reading the code.

Witness the power of... by jeffb+(2.718) · 2012-06-12 00:59 · Score: 4, Insightful

...the strong emphasis on mathematics and science during the Soviet era. Just throw in a bit of Lysenkoism to carry its fruits into the current generation, and presto, world dominance!

Consolation by Sponge+Bath · 2012-06-12 00:59 · Score: 5, Funny

At least the US is still number one in financial scams and reality TV. Snooki can't program.

Re:Consolation by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 01:01 · Score: 1, Funny

And we still have the Kardashians!!!!!!
Re:Consolation by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 01:12 · Score: 0

And believe in global warming, diversity and are obsessed with gay rights, yey.
Re:Consolation by vlm · 2012-06-12 01:14 · Score: 1

Microcode and high speed pizza delivery.

--
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Re:Consolation by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 01:40 · Score: 0

It sounds like heaven...

Someone needs to contact by circletimessquare · 2012-06-12 01:14 · Score: 4, Funny

Sergey Brin and tell him to keep these Russians away from dominating this American company... oh yeah.... nevermind

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intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it

Re:Someone needs to contact by circletimessquare · 2012-06-12 02:58 · Score: 2

my comment attempted to make national racial and religious strife absurd and humorous
congratulations on showing us why the issue has to be made fun of: too many morons take this shit seriously

--
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Re:Someone needs to contact by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 10:21 · Score: 0

Russian and jewish is synonymous?

Economics and chess by MetricT · 2012-06-12 01:15 · Score: 5, Interesting

Someone once told me this, and it makes sense to me...

It takes a lot of money to fund a lab in medicine, biology, chemistry, experimental physics, but computer science, theoretical physics, and mathematics basically require just a computer or pencil/paper.

Because Russia is relatively poorer and has fewer labs relative to its population compared to, say, the USA, Russia's brightest minds naturally gravitate towards the "cheap" sciences, and that largely explains why they punch substantially above their weight in those fields.

I've also heard it's due to Russia's love of chess, which score one for them, I *really* wish would catch on here.

Either way, they're definitely doing something right.

Re:Economics and chess by O('_')O_Bush · 2012-06-12 01:22 · Score: 4, Insightful

And because their best and brightest aren't pushed by their parents to join the sea of Lawyers.

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while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
Re:Economics and chess by Paradise+Pete · 2012-06-12 01:24 · Score: 1

I've also heard it's due to Russia's love of chess, which score one for them, I *really* wish would catch on here.
In my youth I held a master's rating in chess, and my profession is software development, but I don't really think chess was particularly helpful in that. (But then I was a competent but less-than-great chess player and certainly not a superstar developer, so maybe that doesn't mean so much.)
Re:Economics and chess by DemomanDeveloper · 2012-06-12 01:30 · Score: 1

It's not just computer tech being cheap - it wasn't back in time. Russians high sophistication in computer technology can be mostly thanked to Soviet Union's appreciation for highly technical computer stuff and algorithms. The love for chess too.
Re:Economics and chess by Rainbowdash · 2012-06-12 02:28 · Score: 1

Or they're just smarter than us, hiding their cure for cancer ~~
Re:Economics and chess by citizenr · 2012-06-12 03:00 · Score: 1

Someone once told me this, and it makes sense to me...
They lied.
Poland is second in those stats with half the people, better cull percentage, quarter of Russia population, and virtually non existent Chess culture :)

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Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
Re:Economics and chess by aralin · 2012-06-12 10:47 · Score: 1

Experimental physics, chemistry, biology and medicine are VERY dangerous when drunk or hung over. That's the only reason. :)

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If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
Re:Economics and chess by viperidaenz · 2012-06-12 14:09 · Score: 1

India is even poorer than Russia, so your theory doesn't really pan out... My theory is Indian students who can't get into med and law school have no choice but to a) get a CS degree or b) disappoint their family. Result: Reasonably good Indian lawyers and doctors, hopeless everything else
Re:Economics and chess by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-13 17:02 · Score: 0

Wrong! Law is considered lowly in India and only considered by political families or if its a family profession! And Medicine has almost become a priviliged profession thanks to the fees. Reason India failed badly is their education system doesn't build practical skills. I am an Indian with no computer science background and in Software purely out of passion. And I am constantly baffled when I interview fresh engineers who want to join IT for money but dont seem to have any passion or knowledge in Programming.They know 4-5 years down they will move to management and get out of it. The worst way to build a progressive workforce!

3th world sucess by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 01:16 · Score: 0

Don't Americans and westerners just get actual paying jobs for the summer instead of coding for free if they have the skills?

Who has the most to gain by competing? by Mannfred · 2012-06-12 01:19 · Score: 4, Interesting

It seems to me that part of the dynamic here is that highly skilled programmers in the US have less of a need to prove themselves in a competition like this - they probably already have good salaries and good jobs. Programmers in poorer countries are probably not as fortunate, though, and taking part in an international programming competition could provide a ticket to a more lucrative future working for a Western company.

Re:Who has the most to gain by competing? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 01:57 · Score: 0

Being good at competitions like Google Code Jam and TopCoder has nothing to do with a programming job.
Re:Who has the most to gain by competing? by vlm · 2012-06-12 02:00 · Score: 2

Balanced by most recent US grads (around 50%) are un- or under- employed yet have gigantic student loans to pay off. Obviously the ratio is lower in a "real" degree like IT or CS, but there's still plenty of very hungry skilled USAians.

--
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Re:Who has the most to gain by competing? by Unsichtbarer_Mensch · 2012-06-12 03:25 · Score: 1

Ditto that! This applies IMHO to other 'areas of endeavour' where former soviet countries have an unusually strong presence. For example....fashion modelling. It's not like that russian/ukrainian/whatnot women have some kind of ..."hotness gene" -although their phenotype does often help when it comes to modelling e.g in terms of height- but due to the flaky financial situation, a good looking girl in these countries if a *lot* more motivated to try a lucrative international carreer as a model compared to an equally attractive girl from a rich 'western' country. Just my 0.02 €

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Du kan glomma dina ensama stunder, du kan lita paa teknikens under - Wilmer X
Re:Who has the most to gain by competing? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 04:12 · Score: 0

I think when the parent post said "highly skilled programmers", he meant the 50% who are skilled enough to find a good job after college.
Re:Who has the most to gain by competing? by Altus · 2012-06-12 08:16 · Score: 1

Except that if you have a job, you might be less motivated to spend your limited free time on competitions.

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"In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson
Re:Who has the most to gain by competing? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 08:21 · Score: 0

When I got advanced degrees in the USA, employers started to refer to me as overqualified. They said I would just get bored if I was hired and move to a new job in a short period of time. The last thing I need is more qualifications of the same sort. They just make me less employable which depresses my salary prospects as there is not as much demand for those skills.
Re:Who has the most to gain by competing? by sapgau · 2012-06-12 10:21 · Score: 1

Or, given a stable job and income you will die to show off your office buddies how you managed to qualify at code jam.
They will just have to listen and wish they were as smart as you.
You only live once!
XD
Re:Who has the most to gain by competing? by sapgau · 2012-06-12 10:24 · Score: 1

Huh? There are no hot chicks where you live? I didn't understand you logic at all!
Re:Who has the most to gain by competing? by sapgau · 2012-06-12 10:26 · Score: 1

I would rather admit that the code jam questions are hard rather than saying I don't want to keep my skills sharp.

Stuxnet by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 01:21 · Score: 0

Seems the next Stuxnet will come from China or Russia.

Re:Stuxnet by wmbetts · 2012-06-12 01:35 · Score: 1

Who's saying it already hasn't?

--
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me". - stolen from Dan C alt.os.linux.slackware
Re:Stuxnet by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 02:56 · Score: 0

Or Iran?

Project Euler comparisons by vlm · 2012-06-12 01:29 · Score: 3, Informative

The Mighty GOOG entrance numbers are within an order of magnitude of the project euler membership numbers. I think you need an account on PE to see the stats:

http://projecteuler.net/countries

For those who don't want to "compete" in PE but want to know the numbers anyway, I copy some from the article and from PE's registration data:

over 3000 GOOG contestants from India vs exactly 4300 on PE
747 Russian GOOG contestants vs 2269 on PE
114 Belarus GOOG vs 254 on PE
2166 USA GOOG vs 21563 on PE

I don't know much about the GOOG contest but I would guess the Venn Diagram of the GOOG and PE is almost entirely overlapping.
A good question is why less than a tenth of USA PE people competed in the GOOG, yet almost all the India PE people competed in the GOOG.

As far as the elite levels go, this is very superficial, but the names of "first 50 to solve a PE problem" and the names in the forums on PE seem to trend very asian, so Japan might only have 1900 or so contestant, but they're all Ruby Ninjas with leet skills, or whatever. I wish I had real numbers other then vague observations.

Another interesting observation is that the Mighty GOOG short term contest is vaguely roughly around half the size of the permanent/ultra long term PE project.

As a PE guy or player or contestant (or nerd?) I can personally verify that PE is higher mathematics and hard core computer science with virtually no IT component. I don't know anything about the innards of the GOOG competition, can anyone involved describe the ratio of CS::IT or logic::memory in the Mighty GOOGs competition? Also PE merely requires any Turing complete language (although some problems can be solved by non-Turing complete languages anyway, and some can be done on pen and paper if you're hard core or its a REALLY easy problem), does the Mighty GOOG require something specific like Java only or maybe even more specific like "must be an android app" or something like that?

--
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger

Re:Project Euler comparisons by polymeris · 2012-06-12 03:49 · Score: 3, Informative

You can check past contests yourself, including solutions.
Re:Project Euler comparisons by TheLink · 2012-06-12 04:09 · Score: 2

You can click around to see the languages:
http://www.go-hero.net/jam/12/languages/5
http://www.go-hero.net/jam/12/multilang
There's also ranking:
http://code.google.com/codejam/contest/scoreboard?c=1835486
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Re:Project Euler comparisons by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 20:39 · Score: 0

>> "I don't know much about the GOOG contest but I would guess the Venn Diagram of the GOOG and PE is almost entirely overlapping."
Being a Google Code Jam participant in 2005 and somewhat casual solver in PE, I can say with some guarantees that this statement is not quite true. I still actively try to solve some of PE questions whenever I get time these days, but I haven't participated in Google Code Jam after 2005 (lost interest). PE and GCJ attracts fairly different kind of crowd.

Language? by __aaltlg1547 · 2012-06-12 01:29 · Score: 4, Interesting

In America, a student who is good at math, science and CS is called a nerd. In Russia, such a kid is called smart. Seriously, Russia has always kicked ass in science and math education. We should copy their schools.

Re:Language? by O('_')O_Bush · 2012-06-12 01:47 · Score: 5, Insightful

The problem isn't the schools, it is the culture. The schools aren't the ones labeling kids good in STEM, nerds. That is a hard thing to do when the culture idolizes idiots and liars(sports and entertainment, pick your associations).

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while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
Re:Language? by vlm · 2012-06-12 02:09 · Score: 1

As a parent of grade school students in a district with a STEM school, the kids are made fun of for going into a field where they'll be outsourced. Some parents call it the outsourcing school.
The schools are almost perfectly focused on the fields most likely to decline in the future, which is scary. Its as if special "automotive assembly line bolt turner" high schools were set up in Detroit in the early 70s, just dooming the kids to life long poverty. Pretty sad situation.
Now there's nothing wrong with computers or IT or science as a hobby, just like there's nothing wrong with drama or art or dance or music, but you have to be realistic and look at it like they used to look at liberal arts, that's all very interesting and sounds like fun on the weekends, and maybe dad or grandpa even made a living doing that kind of work decades ago, but you need a way to put food on the table for the rest of your life and STEM is certainly not going to be it.

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"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Re:Language? by zr · 2012-06-12 02:36 · Score: 1

i regret to say, if you did copy (good) russian schools, half of teachers would be fired and sued for child abuse.
oh, and by the way, russian teacher unions (where there is such a thing which its relatively rare) would _laugh their asses off_ if they knew a teacher can't prep for a class for more than an hour.
just saying.
Re:Language? by zr · 2012-06-12 02:48 · Score: 2

it is indeed cultural, but its not so much that the russians dont call nerds nerds, they do. its that good teachers are treasured (not always by higher salary, admittedly) and are given MUCH MUCH greater leeway in terms of pushing children to excellence.
there was an incident not long ago when a teacher was accused of sexual harassment, in russia, the parents of his pupils raised to his defense in perfect unison. which is indicative of the fact that a good teacher can be assured of support if he (or she) is accused frivolously.
Re:Language? by Rogerborg · 2012-06-12 03:06 · Score: 4, Insightful

What do you suggest an alternative? The US needs to export something to buy all that foreign made tech, the mainstream commercial porn industry is in freefall, and the German amateurs are already giving away most of the sick niche stuff free.
Lawyers to sue the world, politicians to tell them that it's OK to do so, and grunts with guns who make it OK to do so. Did I miss any?

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If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
Re:Language? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 03:20 · Score: 0

If we live in a global economy, what do you think America should be producing that foreign countries would want to buy or trade from us in the future? If not manufacturing or STEM skills, then what? Our lawyers? Do foreign countries want American lawyers? Copyrights and Patents? Do foreign countries care about American copyrights and patents? MBAs? Do foreign countries want American business managers?
If not manufacturing and STEM skills, then what will America have to be viable in the global economy?
Re:Language? by dmt0 · 2012-06-12 04:15 · Score: 2

In America, a student who is good at math, science and CS is called a nerd. In Russia, such a kid is called smart. Seriously, Russia has always kicked ass in science and math education. We should copy their schools.
I have news for you. In a typical Russian school, a kid with a higher than average GPA would be called a Botanist (which is somehow considered stereotypically the most boring subject ever).
Re:Language? by vlm · 2012-06-12 05:11 · Score: 2

If not manufacturing and STEM skills, then what will America have to be viable in the global economy?
If we don't export food, mostly grains, the world starves.
Also we've carefully, methodically annihilated all domestic consumer good manufacture, yet we rule the roost in ultra heavy industry (100K ton mining draglines, 100 ton mining trucks, giant cranes, that kind of thing) and aerospace. There are international competitors, some of them quite good, especially if their govt helps them with dumping funds and tariffs on imported American machinery, but we hold our own quite well in those fields. If it weighs 100 pounds we simply don't make it here, if it weighs 10000 pounds its 50:50 if its domestic or asian/german and if it weighs 10e6 pounds we lead the world or at least we're neck and neck with the world leaders (there's a people of walmart joke buried in there somewhere wrt to 1e6 pounds)
We're competitive / leaders in arms, blood money is nothing to be proud of, but money is money, and someone's gotta make the munitions, may as well be us. This borders on STEM, but frankly we could cease R+D for a couple human generations and we'd still be competitive with the rest of the world. Going to be a very long time before Somalia, for example, does the R+D to invent a better surface to air missile than we can sell off the shelf.
Cultural imperialism works pretty well so far.
As for services we had / have great higher ed, although that bubble is near popping.

Do foreign countries want American business managers?
LOL, ah, no. There's some joke about in heaven the chefs are french, the bankers are swiss, blah blah whereas in hell the chefs are english, the managers are american, etc.
There is no natural compensation like a well balanced role playing game... intentionally methodically destroying our STEM field industries does not result in the games DM/GM magically giving us bonus points in 200 ton mining dump trucks to balance the game. It just means we're destroying our STEM fields and we're not going to be doing that anymore. We won't be the first nation in the history of humanity to intentionally flush ourselves down the toilet, nor the last.

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"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Re:Language? by SolitaryMan · 2012-06-12 05:11 · Score: 3, Informative

As somebody raised in the Soviet Union I can totally confirm that. In Soviet Union culture (movies and even pop music) scientist or just smart in a scientific sense guy wins. A lot of Soviet era TV shows were about smart people competing (kinda like Jeopardy) and these shows made them TV stars and kids were looking up to them.
Unfortunatelly, this changing now. Partially due to American culture influence.

--
May Peace Prevail On Earth
Re:Language? by cybrpnk2 · 2012-06-12 07:23 · Score: 1

"If we don't export food, mostly grains, the world starves." Maybe back in the 1960s and 1970s, but this is a myth or urban legend in the 21st Century. See for example this. If anything, we are taking corn OUT of the export market and driving up world food prices with our insane tax subsidies on corn to produce fuel ethanol.
Re:Language? by shutdown+-p+now · 2012-06-12 10:35 · Score: 1

I have news for you. In a typical Russian school, a kid with a higher than average GPA would be called a Botanist (which is somehow considered stereotypically the most boring subject ever).
The word "botanik" (which literally translates to "botanist") doesn't actually have to do anything with botany. It derives from "botan", which is to say, a person who always "botaet" - which is a contraction of "rabotat", "to work".
In other words, the Russian word for "nerd" is literally "a guy who works a lot".
Being one myself back in Soviet/Russian school I'd say that the attitudes these days are not dissimilar to the kind of experience American nerds describe, though perhaps slightly better because Russian schools don't have anywhere as big an emphasis on sports beyond basic P.E.
Re:Language? by shutdown+-p+now · 2012-06-12 10:36 · Score: 1

It has already changed, more than a decade ago.
Re:Language? by viperidaenz · 2012-06-12 14:26 · Score: 1

... because China and Russia and many other nuclear armed countries are no good at making bombs?

Hyundai are no good in the heavy industry business? (ok, so they're no good at cars, but that's not where they excel)
Sure, I'd believe America doesn't import massive machinery, but I find it hard to believe they export anything significant. If it doesn't fit on a boat you get it anywhere economically.

Russian Math Olympiad by deodiaus2 · 2012-06-12 01:50 · Score: 2

The Russians have been doing this sort of thing for years in math.
I would think that these sorts of contests are something that new CS students would notice and prepare for. Now, this presents the opportunity of getting noticed by the West, the chance for getting a schlorship at a school like Berkley, and potentially employment at a rich American company being paid in dollars is icing on the cake.

Re:Russian Math Olympiad by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 02:24 · Score: 0

You assume wrong, when you assume that a software developer makes less $$$ in Moscow than in Bay Area. To say that a salary in IT of $4000(NET) is exceptional would be an overstatement.

Re:Africans... by netcruiser · 2012-06-12 02:14 · Score: 1

Not really. Check out South Africa. 3% made it to round 3, while say, US, about 1%.

Moreover... by hcs_$reboot · 2012-06-12 02:22 · Score: 1

The Google Code Jam competition - at least the event we are talking about here - is 100% in English, which emphasizes the Russians performance.
And don't count on the translation programs... the problems are pretty complex and an automated translation would generate many ambiguities (or even mistakes).

Regarding the performance itself, from Round 1 (after the qualifications round) the problems are very Math-oriented. A competitor with a background in mathematics is clearly having a huge advantage. Even the a programmer having strong algorithm knowledge, is likely to be beaten on time by the mathematicians.
So, Russians seem to be better at Maths.

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Re:CCCP KICKS MOTHERFUCKING ASS !! by Rainbowdash · 2012-06-12 02:25 · Score: 1

I dare you to say that to Putins face, I heard he brushes his teeth with diamonds, even his caries is almost immortal.

Australia highest ranked native English speaking by chromasia · 2012-06-12 02:26 · Score: 1

Interesting to see that Australia is the highest ranked native English speaking country (12th overall). Also interesting that United States cumulative total was only 3% ahead of Indonesia. percentages from rounds 1, 2 and 3 added together: Belarus 166% Russia 152% Japan 142% China 140% Taiwan 137% Ukraine 135% Poland 132% Hong Kong 128% South Korea 110% Netherlands 109% Vietnam 107% Australia 102% Hungary 100% South Africa 98% Sweden 98% Greece 98% Thailand 96% Germany 90% United Kingdom 89% Bangladesh 87% France 84% Canada 83% United States 79% Indonesia 76%

Agreed: Chess = a SYSTEM OF THOUGHT by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 02:43 · Score: 0

"I've also heard it's due to Russia's love of chess, which score one for them, I *really* wish would catch on here." - by MetricT (128876) on Tuesday June 12, @09:15AM (#40294473) Homepage

See subject-line above: It's a contributing factor, no questions asked (in addition to the fact that Mathematics & Sciences are STRESSED in the european education system vs. "frowned upon")

* Personally, I LOVE IT, & have posted much the same as you have about it here, & on /. in years past -> http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1877160&cid=34293988

APK

P.S.=> I've played 1,000's of games of it over time (mostly the past 5++ yrs. or so with an EXCELLENT OPPONENT who was a former tenant of mine), & it's NEVER THE SAME GAME TWICE, & always demands thought + strategic implementation of it... apk

Stats from a site that's doing such jam's for by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 02:53 · Score: 0

Stats from a site that's doing such jam's for longer time than google:

http://community.topcoder.com/stat?c=country_avg_rating
1 Russian Federation 662 2993.46
2 China 1673 2905.58
3 Poland 258 2824.82
4 Ukraine 283 2737.54
5 Japan 735 2732.78
6 United States 667 2611.5

Poland has nearly the same number of points with 258 coders, as Russia with 662.

Re:Stats from a site that's doing such jam's for by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 02:56 · Score: 0

Uhm, nope, it seems to be an average rating actually. So yeah...

IME Russian coders are excellent by Rogerborg · 2012-06-12 02:56 · Score: 1

But God help you if you need to maintain their code, because I absolutely guarantee you that they won't.

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Re:IME Russian coders are excellent by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 04:04 · Score: 0

isn't that true for any code?
Re:IME Russian coders are excellent by shutdown+-p+now · 2012-06-12 10:38 · Score: 1

But God help you if you need to maintain their code, because I absolutely guarantee you that they won't.
We wouldn't want to leave you good American folk jobless, so for every job of yours that we steal, we create two more. It's called proletarian solidarity, comrade!

Weather / Distractions by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 03:00 · Score: 0

Growing up in a place with a long winter and no cable TV, pre-internet, did wonders for my future technology career. Having spent some time East of the Urals in Russia as an adult I can vouch for a similar "opportunity" existing there for today's youth.

Eastern Europe education + self-confidence impact? by Moskit · 2012-06-12 03:07 · Score: 4, Informative

Take a look - it's not just Russia with high scores, but also Belarus, Czech Republic, Poland, Slovakia and Ukraine.

Western nations fare much worse, especially as a percentage of guys who make throught. It seems as if more people in USA were convinced of their skills and participated, while EE attracted only those who actually have the skill. This corresponds with real life and self-confidence. EE people seem to judge themselfes harder than others and don't participate in such events even if they have skills.

In any case it's sad to notice that excellent programming skills do not translate to excellent commercial success - many of those talented work for Western companies, do not create good domestic ones.

Feel free to point out if I'm wrong here.

Education system? Really? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 03:11 · Score: 0

What is it with all the comments mentioning the education system as if it's clearly and obviously the primary factor in the difference between countries?
People who excel in any particular field tend to do so despite the education system, which in every country tends to focus on the average and does not cater to those who are highly driven or capable. Russia is no exception to this.

Re:Education system? Really? by shutdown+-p+now · 2012-06-12 10:43 · Score: 1

What is it with all the comments mentioning the education system as if it's clearly and obviously the primary factor in the difference between countries?
People who excel in any particular field tend to do so despite the education system, which in every country tends to focus on the average and does not cater to those who are highly driven or capable. Russia is no exception to this.
People focus on it, because it actually makes a difference. In particular, education there does focus on higher-than average kids.
To give a specific example, in Russia, tertiary education is free if you can pass the corresponding exams. So are specialized schools that focus heavily on science. So if you're good at math, for example, you end up in such a school, glide through it (don't get me wrong, it's still hard work and they cut you no slack - but you're there because you can do it), and then right into the uni. Without having to pay a single cent of your own money, I must add.
Re:Education system? Really? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 11:59 · Score: 0

It is still purely speculation that this is actually what makes the difference.
Where is the evidence that the systems are different enough to be significantly noticeable? Where is the evidence that they do help those who are above average? There is just the assumption that this is the only possible explanation and it seems to be taken for granted.
What about the difference in the quality of teachers? What about the difference in the motivation of individuals? What about cultural biases?
Re:Education system? Really? by shutdown+-p+now · 2012-06-12 12:59 · Score: 1

Where is the evidence that the systems are different enough to be significantly noticeable? Where is the evidence that they do help those who are above average?

All the evidence I need is my background growing up in one.
I'm not saying that there is no cultural bias or other factors that may also affect the effect observed here, but the difference in education system is certainly very big, and is obviously affecting it in a big way.

Send SPIKE by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 03:15 · Score: 0

YES!! I am inveencible!!

I think you can also thank DEC... by tlambert · 2012-06-12 03:32 · Score: 2

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1987-05-29/news/8702090594_1_customs-agents-computer-equipment

FWIW: They took out the computer, filled the crate with cement, and let them pay shipping on it as part of the sting. See also this phrase on the CVAX die:
http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/creatures/pages/russians.html

-- Terry

Re:I think you can also thank DEC... by shutdown+-p+now · 2012-06-12 10:30 · Score: 1

Soviet Union started with its own homegrown tech, and it was pretty bleeding-edge for a while, but eventually they started to fall behind. The engineers and the scientists pushed to keep their own program running, but Party folk wanted the best and the biggest, and so indigenous programs were ditched and replaced with stolen Western tech. In a decade or so, all homegrown developments were past revival. From that point on, the USSR was firmly relegated to the role of copying the new Western stuff, usually after it had already ceased to be new.

They're looking in the wrong place by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 03:38 · Score: 0

Russia, indeed, has some of the highest quality competitors. On the other hand, it doesn't indicate that Russia has the best education system or anything else like that. It just means that Russia has been able to produce six really good programmers. If you want to get an idea of the relative strength of a country's infrastructure, consider how many programmers got past Round 1a. That gives an idea of a country's depth. The numbers are very different: percent thru round 1a China 41.7% Japan 40.1% Hong Kong 33.1% Canada 27.2% United States 25.4% Poland 20.2% Belarus 19.3% Russia 18.7% Ukraine 18.2% Slovakia 12.5% Czech Rep. 8.5% South Africa 5.7% Looked at in terms of depth, China and Japan are, by far, the most impressive. Eastern Europe produces a few geniuses but, overall, they aren't that impressive. Canada and the US are stuck in the mushy middle.

Re:They're looking in the wrong place by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 03:53 · Score: 0

Dude, didn't you ever consider to think why round 1a was smaller then round 2?
If you want to know how many qualified you have to add a+b+c together.

Self Righteous Religous people like you by Dainsanefh · 2012-06-12 04:03 · Score: 0

are the cancer of the USA.

I fully support tax credits for employers hiring felons, much like the same for hiring veterans

Heck, most of them are wrongly imprisoned for victim-less crimes. Thus they shall be treated as Prisoner of War under the United States Zionist Occupied Government.

ANARACHY IS THE ONLY DEMOCRACY AND FAIR SYSTEM. Period.

--
Twitter: @dainsanefh

2012 is here by ub3r+n3u7r4l1st · 2012-06-12 04:07 · Score: 1

There is still time to repent.

Those who lack love and peace shall be flushed out.

A real libertarian should support a one-world currency, along with one world government, one-world election to elect an one-world leader.

An old Chinese wisdom: You should sacrifice yourself for the big cause.

--
New Economic Perspectives

54% of Russians have a college degree by melted · 2012-06-12 04:16 · Score: 1

54% of Russians have a college degree. That's the highest percentage in the world. Why are you surprised that they win competitions that require high IQ?

Re:54% of Russians have a college degree by thetoadwarrior · 2012-06-12 06:12 · Score: 1

That doesn't say anything about intelligence. The number of degree holders in the US has been increasing but I certainly wouldn't say intelligence is rising.
Re:54% of Russians have a college degree by butchersong · 2012-06-12 08:55 · Score: 1

Not sure I follow what you are saying. Get a college degree and raise your IQ? Or are you saying Russians have a higher percentage of college graduates because they have a higher average IQ than other nations? I don't think either is accurate because from what I can find Russia actually averages slightly (an insignificant amount) below US is IQ scores. So... I disagree.
Re:54% of Russians have a college degree by shutdown+-p+now · 2012-06-12 10:44 · Score: 1

54% of Russians have a college degree because it's free to get. In the USSR, it was free if you were good enough to pass the exams (and that percentage was lower). Today, it's free if you're rich enough to pay a bribe to get in.
Re:54% of Russians have a college degree by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 23:46 · Score: 0

so they pay bribe to win contest too?
Re:54% of Russians have a college degree by shutdown+-p+now · 2012-06-13 04:10 · Score: 1

Yes. It's cheaper to bribe to pass the entry exams that let you get free education than it is to pay for it properly.
Well, it depends on the uni in question. I haven't heard of anyone able to bribe their way into the Moscow State University, for example, or into MIPT.

No Indian in Final List by mumbaiblues · 2012-06-12 04:19 · Score: 1

So much for being an IT superpower....

Hong Kong by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 04:52 · Score: 0

Hong Kong does well because they import all the Algorithmic Trading programmers from the world.

Education system? by erp_consultant · 2012-06-12 05:09 · Score: 1

I wonder if it has anything to do with that particular countries education system? I'm generalizing but it seems that in some cultures (India and China for example) a lot of emphasis is placed on memorization and learning by rote. Creative thinking seems to be stressed more in North American and European schools. Those creative thinking skills seem to lend themselves particularly well to solving complex multi-dimensional programming problems - thinking outside the box if you will. It's not really a function of intelligence per se it's more of which approach you take to figure it out.

What?.... by rez_rat · 2012-06-12 05:10 · Score: 1

No "I for one welcome" joke??

I am an Indian who attempted Code Jam 2012 by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 05:55 · Score: 0

I am an Electronics and Communication undergraduate student (here Electronics and CS/IT are completely different branches with very small overlap in syllabus) who formally learned only C at very basic level and assembly programming. Very recently I took some python lessons from some Internet sources. When I heard about the Code Jam, I decided to give it a try without any hope of even passing the qualification round. I scored 60 points in that round while 20 was enough to qualify. What I think that gave me some chance is that I had a whole day to solve the problems, where the next round was limited to two and half hours. So for someone like me who don't have any coding experience it is very difficulty to come with an algorithm in such a short time. But on the other side, participating in this competition really improved my logic and also got me really excited about taking my python learning to next level. I will definitely attempt next time and hope I will perform better. :)

Not surprised by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 06:49 · Score: 0

I am an Indian and I am not at all surprised. Very few of us are good at innovative problem solving or creating, individual thinking (unless it comes to corruption and profiteering). Our education system and our culture are expressly designed to stamp these out via rote learning, punishment and social ostracism. Now, if Google Code Jam was some sort of simple, standardized, fixed multiple choice test, I would completely assure you that the results would be totally different.

Russian Culture by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 08:15 · Score: 0

Being of Russian origin, I can tell you that this comes with several things unheard of in the U.S:

1) Teachers are, or at least were allowed to use physical force to "assist" teaching students who didn't want to learn, and/or were disruptive.
2) Teachers could and were publicly shaming parents on PTA meetings, if their child was under-performing.
3) Under-performing students were made fun of (and encouraged by teachers, principal, and stuff to make fun of), to force them to study more and do better.

What do we have here? Teachers cannot do anything to stop a disruptive student so the whole class suffers, and have to cater to the lowest performing students. Parents are "clients", so nothing too harsh can be said about their child.

Also, Russia has a tradition of education, at least in the cities. This means that parents care a lot about their kids studying and doing well (and parents are not hesitant to use physical force to make it happen).

Now are we ready for that?

Re:Russian Culture by Screen404-O · 2012-06-12 09:44 · Score: 1

I would also add that achieving higher education was not dependent on money your family had or you could barrow. You could enter most prestigious university as long as you could pass the entrance exams and do better then the other 100+ people applying for the same seat. As soon as you enter the first grade you were prepared by parents and teachers for college. Your parents financial situation was not a show stopper for college acceptance it was all up to you. And you where always (In school and at home) reminded about that. In Russia, if you entered college with 0 financial support from you family, you would exit college at a round same mark. The problem in see in USA is if you enter even most inexpensive state college with 0 financial support from family you would be lucky to exit it with less then $50000 in dept. The burden that you must pay off for decades to come.

Language Bias by cowdung · 2012-06-12 08:46 · Score: 1

I was looking at the stats to see why Brazil and other S.American countries didn't fair so well (Brazil had 520+ participants!). When look through the first problem I see that it makes reference to something that is "one-to-one" and "onto". While many Americans know that a "one-to-one" function is an injective function and an "onto" function is "surjective" many people from other cultures/languages may have a hard time understading what they're referring to.

Since this is a programming contest and not a language contest, potentially troublesome terms for non-natives should be spelled out carefully or better yet there should be some translations in some of the other world languages besides English. Otherwise, English speaking countries and more developed countries in general will have an unfair advantage.

Re:Language Bias by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-13 01:38 · Score: 0

What you are saying is utter bs. Both those terms are standard in Math and CS textbooks. Maybe you think that they learn CS from a non English textbook but they don't. It would be much more difficult to learn using a non english textbook anyway.

Re:Eastern Europe education + self-confidence impa by CrashNBrn · 2012-06-12 09:26 · Score: 1

So, all countries where good Hockey Players come from too then.

Re:Eastern Europe education + self-confidence impa by shutdown+-p+now · 2012-06-12 10:40 · Score: 1

Take a look - it's not just Russia with high scores, but also Belarus, Czech Republic, Poland, Slovakia and Ukraine.

i.e. countries that were all socialist in the past, and had inherited their education system from that period.

There's a lot of negatives that can be said about the USSR and other regimes aligned with it, but one thing they never skirted on was solid scientific education - especially after all the bullshit with Lysenko and Marr and other "proletarian sciences" was thrown out after Stalin.

Re:Africans... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-12 11:20 · Score: 0

Yes, South Africa, where the most common communal language, and the primary language for higher education, is... wait for it... English.

India is a programming superpower by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-13 08:43 · Score: 0

Americans and Europeans who don't consider India a super power in programming should shut their damn mouths. If you look at our trajectory we will overtake you soon.

Don't act like the white male is the only thing that can program. It is wrong. Fear is the mindkiller. Accept your fate, you lost.

Outsourcing is not going away. Sorry to tell you, go watch your big screen TVs and play with your little Mac toys.

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Russian Programmers Dominate At Google Code Jam

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