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Russian Programmers Dominate At Google Code Jam
New submitter Migala77 writes "Now that the third round for Google Code Jam is finished and only 25 contestants are left, we can look at which nationalities performed well and which didn't. Code Jam contestant foxlit has the stats, and some interesting things can be seen. Although there were over 3000 contestants from India in the qualification round (17% of the total) , only 3 of those managed to reach the third round (0.7% of the round 3 contestants) . This in contrast to Russia with 77 out of 747, and Belarus with 13 out of 114 reaching the third round. The U.S. performed somewhat below average too, with only 25 out of 2166 contestants making it to the third round."
Take a look at where the best compression algorithms come. Almost all come from former Soviet bloc countries. India isn't surprising either, as many American companies have found out from outsourcing.
Or these results don't reflect anything about the quality of the programmers from a country, and rather the bias of who found out about the Code Jam (lots of everyday Joe programmers, vs those in-the-loop).
while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
Then computers in the prisons should be a good rehab route?
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
Why are you looking at nationality? What are you trying to prove? Is this the 1936 Summer Olympics?
...the strong emphasis on mathematics and science during the Soviet era. Just throw in a bit of Lysenkoism to carry its fruits into the current generation, and presto, world dominance!
At least the US is still number one in financial scams and reality TV. Snooki can't program.
Sergey Brin and tell him to keep these Russians away from dominating this American company... oh yeah.... nevermind
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Someone once told me this, and it makes sense to me...
It takes a lot of money to fund a lab in medicine, biology, chemistry, experimental physics, but computer science, theoretical physics, and mathematics basically require just a computer or pencil/paper.
Because Russia is relatively poorer and has fewer labs relative to its population compared to, say, the USA, Russia's brightest minds naturally gravitate towards the "cheap" sciences, and that largely explains why they punch substantially above their weight in those fields.
I've also heard it's due to Russia's love of chess, which score one for them, I *really* wish would catch on here.
Either way, they're definitely doing something right.
It seems to me that part of the dynamic here is that highly skilled programmers in the US have less of a need to prove themselves in a competition like this - they probably already have good salaries and good jobs. Programmers in poorer countries are probably not as fortunate, though, and taking part in an international programming competition could provide a ticket to a more lucrative future working for a Western company.
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but yes, people should have access to computers in prison. Unlike in USA, many other countries do actually try to get prisoners back to being normal, productive people instead of just punishing them.
Now, internet access and such is another point because that could be used to communicate with other criminals outside.. but having a library of programming books and personal computers for prisoners would be a good way to change those people. Programming books being just example, there could be other things too. The main point being; yes, it is much better to try to get those prisoners life back on track instead of just punishing them.
The Mighty GOOG entrance numbers are within an order of magnitude of the project euler membership numbers. I think you need an account on PE to see the stats:
http://projecteuler.net/countries
For those who don't want to "compete" in PE but want to know the numbers anyway, I copy some from the article and from PE's registration data:
over 3000 GOOG contestants from India vs exactly 4300 on PE
747 Russian GOOG contestants vs 2269 on PE
114 Belarus GOOG vs 254 on PE
2166 USA GOOG vs 21563 on PE
I don't know much about the GOOG contest but I would guess the Venn Diagram of the GOOG and PE is almost entirely overlapping.
A good question is why less than a tenth of USA PE people competed in the GOOG, yet almost all the India PE people competed in the GOOG.
As far as the elite levels go, this is very superficial, but the names of "first 50 to solve a PE problem" and the names in the forums on PE seem to trend very asian, so Japan might only have 1900 or so contestant, but they're all Ruby Ninjas with leet skills, or whatever. I wish I had real numbers other then vague observations.
Another interesting observation is that the Mighty GOOG short term contest is vaguely roughly around half the size of the permanent/ultra long term PE project.
As a PE guy or player or contestant (or nerd?) I can personally verify that PE is higher mathematics and hard core computer science with virtually no IT component. I don't know anything about the innards of the GOOG competition, can anyone involved describe the ratio of CS::IT or logic::memory in the Mighty GOOGs competition? Also PE merely requires any Turing complete language (although some problems can be solved by non-Turing complete languages anyway, and some can be done on pen and paper if you're hard core or its a REALLY easy problem), does the Mighty GOOG require something specific like Java only or maybe even more specific like "must be an android app" or something like that?
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
In America, a student who is good at math, science and CS is called a nerd. In Russia, such a kid is called smart. Seriously, Russia has always kicked ass in science and math education. We should copy their schools.
Who's saying it already hasn't?
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me". - stolen from Dan C alt.os.linux.slackware
The Russians have been doing this sort of thing for years in math.
I would think that these sorts of contests are something that new CS students would notice and prepare for. Now, this presents the opportunity of getting noticed by the West, the chance for getting a schlorship at a school like Berkley, and potentially employment at a rich American company being paid in dollars is icing on the cake.
I'm just one of those old-fashoned type people that think that prison should be a strong deterrent against breaking the law. Violate someone else's rights and find yourself in a hole with all your privileges taken away for awhile.
As it is now, go to prison, get free health care, free internet access, free weight room, free cable tv, free library, free sports, free laundry, free education, free housing, free food, free clothing, free dental.
Must be nice. This is deterrent to commit crime? Sounds more like incentive to!
Now some of that I can see as helpful to rehabilitation. But some of it is spoiling them (weight room, cable tv) and a lot of the rest they should have to work for while they're there instead of putting the tab on my taxes. They violate my rights, then the state charges me for it, lovely system we have here.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
Not really. Check out South Africa. 3% made it to round 3, while say, US, about 1%.
The Google Code Jam competition - at least the event we are talking about here - is 100% in English, which emphasizes the Russians performance.
And don't count on the translation programs... the problems are pretty complex and an automated translation would generate many ambiguities (or even mistakes).
Regarding the performance itself, from Round 1 (after the qualifications round) the problems are very Math-oriented. A competitor with a background in mathematics is clearly having a huge advantage. Even the a programmer having strong algorithm knowledge, is likely to be beaten on time by the mathematicians.
So, Russians seem to be better at Maths.
Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
I dare you to say that to Putins face, I heard he brushes his teeth with diamonds, even his caries is almost immortal.
Interesting to see that Australia is the highest ranked native English speaking country (12th overall). Also interesting that United States cumulative total was only 3% ahead of Indonesia. percentages from rounds 1, 2 and 3 added together: Belarus 166% Russia 152% Japan 142% China 140% Taiwan 137% Ukraine 135% Poland 132% Hong Kong 128% South Korea 110% Netherlands 109% Vietnam 107% Australia 102% Hungary 100% South Africa 98% Sweden 98% Greece 98% Thailand 96% Germany 90% United Kingdom 89% Bangladesh 87% France 84% Canada 83% United States 79% Indonesia 76%
But God help you if you need to maintain their code, because I absolutely guarantee you that they won't.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
Take a look - it's not just Russia with high scores, but also Belarus, Czech Republic, Poland, Slovakia and Ukraine.
Western nations fare much worse, especially as a percentage of guys who make throught. It seems as if more people in USA were convinced of their skills and participated, while EE attracted only those who actually have the skill. This corresponds with real life and self-confidence. EE people seem to judge themselfes harder than others and don't participate in such events even if they have skills.
In any case it's sad to notice that excellent programming skills do not translate to excellent commercial success - many of those talented work for Western companies, do not create good domestic ones.
Feel free to point out if I'm wrong here.
Most people in the US are not in prison for "violating someone else's rights". Most are in there for non-violent drug offenses that have violated nobody's rights.
Your lack of sympathy is absolutely shocking. You seriously think that people should be locked up for decades (mostly for drug charges), with no access to exercise or entertainment? That people should be forced to sit in concrete rooms for 20 years at a time? Of course, it's all about YOU, of course, but still. This level of crass disregard for human life is shocking.
I don't respond to AC's.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1987-05-29/news/8702090594_1_customs-agents-computer-equipment
FWIW: They took out the computer, filled the crate with cement, and let them pay shipping on it as part of the sting. See also this phrase on the CVAX die:
http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/creatures/pages/russians.html
-- Terry
Sheesh, what a self-righteous douche. If you're ever inside I predict you will get the kind of isolation treatment you wish on others, for your own protection.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
The best stats I could find quickly are here, and show drug offenses at (a somewhat surprising to me) 48%. Lump in immigration at 12% and you've covered most of the non-rights-violators at 60%.
Then add up Weapons, Explosives, Arson, Robbery, Burglary, Larceny, Property Offenses, Extortion, Fraud, Bribery, Homicide, Aggravated Assault, and Kidnapping Offenses and get about 30% of the population. So it's not the majority, but it's certainly not small.
But now that the dry statistics are actually quantified, lets look at "rights violation". How many of those drug offenses are for users, and how many are for dealers and trafficers? It doesn't say in that chart, unfortunately. I would classify dealers and trafficers as rights violators, though you may not. They're certainly AREN'T in the "not hurting anyone but themselves" camp. Your turn to go dig up some statistics.
(and this is ignoring the reality that a lot of druggies fund their habit using predatory behavior, and have a lot of collateral damage on their friends and family - saying "they're not hurting anyone but themselves" doesn't cut it when their kids haven't eaten a square meal in months because mommy has to have her crack)
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
There is still time to repent.
Those who lack love and peace shall be flushed out.
A real libertarian should support a one-world currency, along with one world government, one-world election to elect an one-world leader.
An old Chinese wisdom: You should sacrifice yourself for the big cause.
New Economic Perspectives
54% of Russians have a college degree. That's the highest percentage in the world. Why are you surprised that they win competitions that require high IQ?
So much for being an IT superpower....
I wonder if it has anything to do with that particular countries education system? I'm generalizing but it seems that in some cultures (India and China for example) a lot of emphasis is placed on memorization and learning by rote. Creative thinking seems to be stressed more in North American and European schools. Those creative thinking skills seem to lend themselves particularly well to solving complex multi-dimensional programming problems - thinking outside the box if you will. It's not really a function of intelligence per se it's more of which approach you take to figure it out.
No "I for one welcome" joke??
Drug dealers and traffickers don't have anything to do with your rights. What other people choose to buy or sell or do with their bodies is none of your business, and certainly doesn't warrant them being locked up like animals for most of their lives. The US is supposed to be about "freedom". Instead, we have more people in prison than any other country on the planet, and most of it is for doing things that have no impact, whatsoever, on you or your precious "rights" that you pretend are violated. It's stupid, and it's savage. Congratulations for helping to make the world look a bit more like Fahrenheit 451.
I don't respond to AC's.
Then computers in the prisons should be a good rehab route?
Yes, that's why they will be opposed.
In the land of for-profit prisons, the last thing you want is rehabilitation.
I'm just one of those old-fashoned type people that think that prison should be a strong deterrent against breaking the law. Violate someone else's rights and find yourself in a hole with all your privileges taken away for awhile.
I would think that, if you want what's best for the innocent, law-abiding citizenfolk, what we should really be after is whatever measures will minimize the risk of recidivism - after all, it's too late to prevent the original crime. So do you have data that shows that a "deterrence" policy works best to reduce recidivism? Or are you really after some kind of righteous "retribution"?
Downmodding is the refuge of the weak. Don't downmod, make a better argument!
Yes and no, what someone puts in there body should be of nobody elses concern. If they are a bad parent because of this (such as abusive or neglectful) than like any other parent that falls in this category their kids should be taken away. If they are driving intoxicated on lsd, they should get a DUI, if they show up to work high as hell, it should be treated like showing up to work drunk. Alcohol is no different than most opiates, speed, etc etc etc. However, like a functioning drunk, you can become a functioning addict.
So from that point of view, a supplier doesn't force you to take meth, heroin, crack. They don't hunt you down and ask if you want a hit, if the government taxed the hell out of it and sold it legally like they do alcohol, the fda could regulate it which means a drop in drug related crime (turf wars, such as those for alcohol running in the 30's), and cleaner safer drugs. Also means more money to pharmaceutical lobbyists (not that I support these guys, but it's more amercian jobs). It would also drop the prison population by apparently 48% (I thought it was in the 70's to be honest, so that shocks me to) which means half the money we spend each year on prisons. http://money.cnn.com/magazines/business2/business2_archive/2006/12/01/8394995/index.htm (37billion, much lower than I expected). There's also the sociological effect to take into account, legalizing it would make the drug trade less "cool". It doesn't mean we won't have overdoses, addiction, neglect, etc. But we already have all that with alcohol, so how is this really different?
WTF Slashdot, why do I have to login 50 times to post?
I was looking at the stats to see why Brazil and other S.American countries didn't fair so well (Brazil had 520+ participants!). When look through the first problem I see that it makes reference to something that is "one-to-one" and "onto". While many Americans know that a "one-to-one" function is an injective function and an "onto" function is "surjective" many people from other cultures/languages may have a hard time understading what they're referring to.
Since this is a programming contest and not a language contest, potentially troublesome terms for non-natives should be spelled out carefully or better yet there should be some translations in some of the other world languages besides English. Otherwise, English speaking countries and more developed countries in general will have an unfair advantage.
So, all countries where good Hockey Players come from too then.
I would also add that achieving higher education was not dependent on money your family had or you could barrow. You could enter most prestigious university as long as you could pass the entrance exams and do better then the other 100+ people applying for the same seat. As soon as you enter the first grade you were prepared by parents and teachers for college. Your parents financial situation was not a show stopper for college acceptance it was all up to you. And you where always (In school and at home) reminded about that. In Russia, if you entered college with 0 financial support from you family, you would exit college at a round same mark. The problem in see in USA is if you enter even most inexpensive state college with 0 financial support from family you would be lucky to exit it with less then $50000 in dept. The burden that you must pay off for decades to come.
Take a look - it's not just Russia with high scores, but also Belarus, Czech Republic, Poland, Slovakia and Ukraine.
i.e. countries that were all socialist in the past, and had inherited their education system from that period.
There's a lot of negatives that can be said about the USSR and other regimes aligned with it, but one thing they never skirted on was solid scientific education - especially after all the bullshit with Lysenko and Marr and other "proletarian sciences" was thrown out after Stalin.
What is it with all the comments mentioning the education system as if it's clearly and obviously the primary factor in the difference between countries?
People who excel in any particular field tend to do so despite the education system, which in every country tends to focus on the average and does not cater to those who are highly driven or capable. Russia is no exception to this.
People focus on it, because it actually makes a difference. In particular, education there does focus on higher-than average kids.
To give a specific example, in Russia, tertiary education is free if you can pass the corresponding exams. So are specialized schools that focus heavily on science. So if you're good at math, for example, you end up in such a school, glide through it (don't get me wrong, it's still hard work and they cut you no slack - but you're there because you can do it), and then right into the uni. Without having to pay a single cent of your own money, I must add.
(and this is ignoring the reality that a lot of druggies fund their habit using predatory behavior, and have a lot of collateral damage on their friends and family - saying "they're not hurting anyone but themselves" doesn't cut it when their kids haven't eaten a square meal in months because mommy has to have her crack)
then the charge should have been child abuse not drug use.
Where is the evidence that the systems are different enough to be significantly noticeable? Where is the evidence that they do help those who are above average?
All the evidence I need is my background growing up in one.
I'm not saying that there is no cultural bias or other factors that may also affect the effect observed here, but the difference in education system is certainly very big, and is obviously affecting it in a big way.
In America, religious beliefs and racism trumps expert studies.
New Economic Perspectives
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but yes, people should have access to computers in prison. Unlike in USA, many other countries do actually try to get prisoners back to being normal, productive people instead of just punishing them. Now, internet access and such is another point because that could be used to communicate with other criminals outside.
Actually, you might be surprised. Some prisons do provide web and email access, albeit extremely filtered, logged, etc. The issue at hand is that the vast majority of work-place jobs require some interaction with a keyboard and screen, and that without adequate experience with computers then ex-offenders' job prospects include only labouring work and similar. The cost of recidivism is far higher than the cost of rehabilitation (assuming the offender wants to be rehabilitated, of course).
There are 10 kinds of people; those who know ternary, those who don't, and those now hunting for a dictionary.
Your way of thinking probably explains as well why the US is #1 in prisoners-per-capita.
Imprisonment removes your freedom. This should be punishment enough. Once you are in there, the idea is not to get you even more agitated or depressed. Rehabilitation comes with providing perhaps even things to which you didn't have access in the first place and led you to crime.
Of course in theory it's easy to generalize and philosofize. But still, trying to make a troubled individual's environment troubling, really has poor chances of solving the trouble.
Compared to how some people live on the street, prison is living it large. I've read numerous accounts of people getting out of jail, and deliberately doing something to get thrown back into jail. (like walking into a bank with a gun, get handed some cash, and wait for the police) For many, the tradeoff of freedom of movement is a welcome trade for all that the prison system provides. Or at least "its not that bad". Prison needs to be something that people fear ending up in and factor into their actions.
It's just lost a lot of it's "deterrent factor". I still hear people comparing "regular" prison to federal prison. Apparently there's still a difference, and criminals weigh their activities more heavily when "it's federal".
So yes, I'd rather see them out in the yard breaking rocks than playing volleyball. I don't think that attitude fills the prisons, I think that helps empty them because people make different decisions because they have a stronger wish to avoid prison.
And I don't like the state giving prisoners better benefits than members of the public. Take away some of the amenities of prison life and redirect that funding toward say, community activity such as boys and girls club, job training, rehab, public schooling, etc. That will help reduce the problem of prison population from both ends of the stick. Get youth on a better track to begin with, and instill a stronger wish to say OUT of prison. And if they ever wind up there, never want to go back.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.