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Assange Loses Latest Round In Extradition Fight

Richard_at_work writes "After losing his appeal to the UK Supreme Court a couple of weeks ago, Assange's lawyer was given leave to seek a reopening of the case on particular grounds — the UK Supreme Court has now rejected those grounds and upheld its earlier ruling that Assange should be extradited, which could happen in the next few days."

296 comments

  1. Buggars! by xystren · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Welcome to Team USA: World Police

    1. Re:Buggars! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Team America: World Police", but I get your point.

      Yep, the U.K. has agreed to extradite Assange to the United States.

      Well, to Sweden, who will suddenly drop any legal issues they have and immediately extradite him to the United States.

      So long to any real meaning of the phrase "Rule of Law"

    2. Re:Buggars! by xystren · · Score: 0

      It has been an interesting turn of events on how far reaching US law seems to be outside of their borders... I wonder if there could be an argument made for non-extradition due to the fact that the US also still has the death penalty in place.

    3. Re:Buggars! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm rooting for Assange to get to Sweden and... he's released after his fine and short jail time.

      Just to see what outlandish, stupid conspiracy theory his followers come up with THEN...

    4. Re:Buggars! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How so? Assange stands acussed of sexual harrassment in Sweden, and will be extradited there to stand trial for that charge.

      What he did might have merely been slimy douchebag behaviour, and his celebrity status meant you got an overeager prosecutor involved, but I don't see US involvement there.

    5. Re:Buggars! by shaitand · · Score: 1

      He is being extradited to Sweden, not the US, for alleged sex crimes (not wearing a condom during intercourse), well sort of alleged. He hasn't actually been charged with anything in Sweden.

    6. Re:Buggars! by Sir_Sri · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Even if the charges are completely fabricated by someone, anyone (CIA the women in question etc.) it's absurd to think that the UK would refuse extradition to Sweden for something like this.

      Would the alleged crime be illegal in the UK? Yes.
      Does the UK have an extradition arrangement with Sweden (in this case as part of the EU I would figure)? Yes.
      Would the Swedish legal system treat him appropriately from the UK perspective if convicted of this particular crime, and will he get appropriate process? Yes, but that's why they have an extradition agreement at all.

      At that point he's just delaying the inevitable. If not, then you'd have to kick one or both of Sweden and the UK out of the EU for not upholding the same basic sets of rights and rules. The question of whether or not the US is fabricating the whole thing can be addressed fairly in sweden (at least the UK would consider it fair).

    7. Re:Buggars! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Technically, he will be extradited *for questioning* about that charge, and if the charges are deemed to have merit after that questioning, the Swedish prosecutor will move ahead with pressing charges. It's entirely possible (perhaps even *likely*) that they'll question him, decide the charges have no merit, and release him back to the UK.

      And all of this is *exactly* how the Swedish system works. They don't bring a suit until they've done an investigation, and when they decided they wanted Mr. Assange for questioning, he had already left the country. So they ordered him detained for questioning (in absentia), and this extradition request will bring him back to Sweden to face *questioning* by the prosecutors on the 4 allegations under consideration.

      Yes, they gave him permission to leave. NO, that permission did not immediately cancel any possible legal obligations he might have in the matter. They decided they needed to ask him more questions, they asked him to come back, he refused, so they're compelling him to come back. This is all very normal legal process for Sweden, and the ONLY reason to suspect that there's any "hand of the US" at work here is because he happens to have embarrassed the US government at some point, and that seems to be enough for the tin-foil hait crowd.

    8. Re:Buggars! by zill · · Score: 1

      The death penalty is a non-issue. The US prosecution simply has to promise they won't seek the death penalty.

    9. Re:Buggars! by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There are allegations.
      Mostly withdrawn.
      There is no indictment.
      Required for extradition.
      You presume guilt.
      In the absence of evidence or formal charges in court.

      It looks like Jack Lint is warming up his instruments, in Information Retrieval.

      I'm glad that you endorse and encourage this sort of thing. Let's get Tuttle, next.

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    10. Re:Buggars! by Tackhead · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Even if the charges are completely fabricated by someone, anyone (CIA the women in question etc.) it's absurd to think that the UK would refuse extradition to Sweden for something like this.

      This.

      The guy let his own ego lead him into a situation that enabled him to get caught in a honey trap. He got a little bit of PR out of it, but he and his organization would have been much better off had he realized how susceptible he was to manipulation.

      Ironic, given that he worked at Seatec Astronomy :)

    11. Re:Buggars! by Adrian+Lopez · · Score: 2

      Would the alleged crime be illegal in the UK? Yes.

      Please cite the law in question and show how it applies to Assange's specific behavior of not wearing a condom after promising he would.

      --
      "In prison you just have to shut your eyes and take it. Here you have to shut your eyes and give it."
    12. Re:Buggars! by zill · · Score: 1

      Sweden is just a stop. US is the final destination. US has extradition treaties with Sweden.

    13. Re:Buggars! by Sparticus789 · · Score: 1

      Might as well put up a sign that says: Come flame me if you hate America!

      --
      sudo make me a sandwich
    14. Re:Buggars! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      He hasn't been charged with anything. He's being extradited for questioning only.

    15. Re:Buggars! by crazyjj · · Score: 2

      and will he get appropriate process?

      Yeah, Sweden's going to give him due process. They're duly going to process him on a plane to the U.S., where he'll be thrown in prison forever.

      --
      What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
    16. Re:Buggars! by dalias · · Score: 1

      Someone has a right to withdraw consent at any time. Based on my understanding of the allegations, that's what they're saying happened.

    17. Re:Buggars! by Dan667 · · Score: 0

      you really think the fight would be this hard for just asking some questions?

    18. Re:Buggars! by crazyjj · · Score: 1

      They only send in the Seals and missiles if you're in the Middle East and not particularly well-known. For everyone else, they forgo the explosive charges for rape charges.

      --
      What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
    19. Re:Buggars! by jythie · · Score: 1

      Control no, influence yes.

      Setting aside his innocence or guilt, US allies often go along with unofficial requests from the US to deal with people unless there is a domestic reason not to (such as countries that do not allow the death penalty making a ruckus about extradition, or Polanski's popularity).

      In this case Assange is pretty hated by both governments and corporations around the world, so other governments are not exactly interested in fighting US pressure on the issue.

    20. Re:Buggars! by Adrian+Lopez · · Score: 1

      Even after the fact? Please cite the law.

      --
      "In prison you just have to shut your eyes and take it. Here you have to shut your eyes and give it."
    21. Re:Buggars! by jythie · · Score: 1

      If I understand the case correctly, the issue was that the extradition was handled improperly and requested by someone who might not have the authority to do so. Sometimes the US and people bowing to US pressure get sloopy and forget to handle things above the board since they often assume their legal actions will simply be rubber stamped by foreign judges, which is not always the case.

    22. Re:Buggars! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Post-Coitus too it seems.

    23. Re:Buggars! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      This plus thrity; it's just to get him into Sweden, where they have "special" extradition laws with the US. So he'll get to Sweden be "questioned" about the allegations; get a reprimand or slap on the wrist for whatever they say he did there. To instantly be sent off to the US.

    24. Re:Buggars! by Richard_at_work · · Score: 2

      So does the UK...

    25. Re:Buggars! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's OK. He's probably on Obama's secret kill list anyhow.

      It's a joke! I think...

    26. Re:Buggars! by jythie · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The US has an extradition treaty with the UK too, so I wonder why they are taking such an indirect route.

      My best guess is that they feel they will have an easier time getting Sweeden to extradite him on hazier charges (since the DoJ has yet to find anything to actually charge him with) and the UK is a bit more obsessed with proper use of law (a rather old and neurotic British trait).

    27. Re:Buggars! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Would the alleged crime be illegal in the UK?

      There is no alleged crime.

    28. Re:Buggars! by peragrin · · Score: 1

      It is Swedish law. Not American not british but Swedish law.

      Besides the CIA. Is just as clueless as you are regarding Swedish law.

      He got lucky with two different women. The problem becomes Swedish law is very much in the womens favor. And that bit him on the ass when those women found out

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    29. Re:Buggars! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Actually, I believe the UK has made the bar for extradiction much more difficult in the last 5 years for the US because of changes to US laws. Thus the need to get Assange to a country that doesn't have the same barriers.... There was a reason Assange went to the UK after opening the doors.

      This whole debacle is fishy at best...

      I, for one, would like to see Sweden promise to return Assange to the UK after his "questioning" (or Trial or prison term), a simple thing for them to do, yet, it has still NOT been done, or even put on the table as an option to speed up this process for the Swedes. That in itself should be enough to raise flags for most people....

    30. Re:Buggars! by Kijori · · Score: 2

      According to Wikipedia:

      There are four charges: that on 14 August 2010 he committed "unlawful coercion" when he held complainant 1 down with his body weight in a sexual manner; that he "sexually molested" complainant 1 when he had condom-less sex with her after she insisted that he use one; that he had condom-less sex with complainant 2 on the morning of 17 August while she was asleep; and that he "deliberately molested" complainant 1 on 18 August 2010 by pressing his erect penis against her body.

      The law in England on consent obtained by deception is complex and unwieldy. I am not an expert, but I don't think lying about whether you are wearing a condom would be sufficient to vitiate consent. Even if that particular charge would not be a crime in England and Wales, however, if the allegations are true he would still potentially be guilty of rape and sexual assault.

    31. Re:Buggars! by budgenator · · Score: 1

      A surprising number of US laws are extra-territorial, especially things like murder, rape, terrorism, piracy (as in maritime hooligans rather than music down-loaders) and oh yes just about anything in the espionage category. What is surprising to me is how little interest the USG is showing in this matter, but that may change if Bradley Manning is convicted. I wouldn't be surprised if during the Manning trial, that Assange was subpoenaed and deposed in that matter.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    32. Re:Buggars! by Adrian+Lopez · · Score: 2

      It is Swedish law. Not American not british but Swedish law.

      I was responding to the claim that the alleged crime would be illegal under UK law.

      Is just as clueless as you are regarding Swedish law.

      Evidently not as clueless as you are concerning the context of this discussion.

      --
      "In prison you just have to shut your eyes and take it. Here you have to shut your eyes and give it."
    33. Re:Buggars! by Richard_at_work · · Score: 5, Informative

      The judges themselves said they were unlawful under UK law:

      Rejecting the Assange legal team’s attempt to portray his alleged actions as “disrespectful” or “disturbing” but not criminal, the judges declared (PDF) that the behavior described in each of the charges was criminal under the laws of England and Wales:

      The first complaint described a situation in which Assange held down the arms of the woman known as AA, preventing her from reaching a condom as he attempted to pry her legs open with his own legs in order to penetrate her vaginally. AA’s subsequent consent to intercourse after he had agreed to put on a condom, they found, did not render Assange’s alleged initial use of force against her lawful.

      With regard to the second complaint, Assange’s lawyers contended that it is not illegal under English law to penetrate a partner without a condom in circumstances in which she has only consented to sex if a condom is used. The court ruled that such deception would be a criminal act in England, given that AA’s complaint alleged that Assange intentionally sabotaged the condom he was using while they were having intercourse.

      In the third complaint, AA alleged that Assange rubbed his erect naked penis against her body while they were sharing a bed under non-sexual circumstances. The judges ruled that AA’s consent to sleep in the same bed as Assange “was not a consent to him removing his clothes from the lower part of his body and deliberately pressing that part and his erect penis against her.”

      Finally, in the case of the fourth complaint, the judges rejected the Assange lawyers’ contention that the behavior described would not constitute rape under English law. Under that law, they found, the behavior alleged constituted rape in two separate ways: First, that Assange is said to have penetrated SW without a condom when she had only consented to intercourse if a condom was present, and second that he penetrated her while she slept. “It is difficult to see,” they said, “how a person could reasonably have believed in consent if the complainant alleges a state of sleep or half sleep,” and “there is nothing in the statement from which it could be inferred that he reasonably expected that she would have consented to sex without a condom.”

      From http://studentactivism.net/2011/11/02/british-judges-reject-assanges-rape-defense/

      Judgement mentioned in the article, direct from the UK Judiciary website - http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/Resources/JCO/Documents/Judgments/assange-judgment.pdf

    34. Re:Buggars! by Barefoot+Monkey · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Even if the charges are completely fabricated by someone, anyone (CIA the women in question etc.) it's absurd to think that the UK would refuse extradition to Sweden for something like this.

      Oh, it's not extradition for the alleged crimes that has people worried. It's the fact that he was already detained for investigation for a month in Sweden until the case was closed and he was permitted to leave the country. Now they want him back. Are they going to repeat the same process with different prosecutor's until the outcome changes? That's suspicious to the point of being terrifying.

    35. Re:Buggars! by cpu6502 · · Score: 2

      But he didn't commit any crimes in the UK, so there's no grounds for extradition. The U.S. has to get him into Sweden first before they can try to get ahold of him. (Or so the story goes.)

      BTW it's ridiculous to claim "rape" just because a guy didn't wear a condom. The two ladies *consented* to have bare sex... nobody forced them to.

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    36. Re:Buggars! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Would the alleged crime be illegal in the UK? No.

      It's a VERY SPECIFIC law that only exists in Sweden.

      So no, the alleged crime is NOT illegal in the UK.

      And he's not even being ACCUSED of it! The case was dropped and they merely want to take a statement. A statement JA said he was happy to give in a UK police station, but not if he has to pay and spend time travelling BACK to Sweden when he'd already cleared his leaving the country with the police at the time.

    37. Re:Buggars! by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      Uhm, what? He doesnt need to have committed any crimes in the UK to be extradited - the country requesting extradition just needs a valid warrant.

      Otherwise you could commit a crime in one country and flee to any other country in the world - and it quite obviously doesnt work like that...

      Also, check out the complaints made against him, its more complex than you (and incidentally most people against hte extradition in these stories comments) seem to believe it is - they didnt consent to have bare sex, thats part of the complaints made.

    38. Re:Buggars! by Sir_Sri · · Score: 1

      Yes. And?

      From the perspective of extradition it doesn't matter. Would the questioning involve torture? No. Could he be charged with a crime that the UK recognizes? Yes. Is the punishment for said crime something the UK allows (i.e. no death penalty)? That's pretty much it.

    39. Re:Buggars! by Kharny · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Impossible, sweden cannot extradite him without UK consent. (illegal to extradite after you been extradited from different country in european law)

      --
      Make a man a fire and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
    40. Re:Buggars! by Sir_Sri · · Score: 1

      They could do that. But then so could the UK.

      From the perspective of the UK they trust the Swedish legal process (which includes the European court of human rights). If the Swedes decide to turn around and send him to guantanamo bay (specifically) the UK and the EU would lose faith in the swedish legal system and there would have to be consequences to treaties and EU membership etc.

      Sending him to the US is another matter. Because again, the UK and Sweden can both extradite to the US and the same basic questions apply. If the US wanted him they'd have had as much luck in the UK as they would in sweden I would think.

    41. Re:Buggars! by Xest · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The fundamental issue is that these are different interpretations of the law than those reached in hundreds of other past similar cases, including some far more aggressive than this.

      I feel sorry for those girls who have been told by the courts they weren't raped in far less pleasant ordeals than this, yet this, a much more borderline case, is affirmed as rape.

      It's frankly disgusting.

    42. Re:Buggars! by Sir_Sri · · Score: 1

      Richard At work posted a nice summary above. He's wanted for questioning in alleged criminal activity. Whether I used precisely legally correct language or not I'm not sure, least of all as it applies to a legal system that isn't my own.

    43. Re:Buggars! by Sir_Sri · · Score: 1, Insightful

      If the Swedish legal system allows it then... so what?

      The Swedish legal system isn't a variant on the common law system of the US/UK/Canada etc. Nor is it obliged to be. If the UK has decided their process is fair enough to allow extradition treaties then that's pretty much the end of the discussion.

      There's nothing particularly suspicious to the point of being terrifying. If their system allows that, and you think it's terrifying don't ever travel to sweden. For all it matters their system could be the Kings word is law, and he is the supreme legal authority in the country, if the UK signed a treaty agreeing that system is sufficiently fair to allow extraditions then they are bound by that agreement.

    44. Re:Buggars! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's not charged with any crimes. Only wanted for questioning. It does seem unusual to extradite someone not charged with a crime.

    45. Re:Buggars! by cpu6502 · · Score: 1

      >>>Would the alleged crime be illegal in the UK? Yes.

      No. Sex without a condom is Not illegal in the UK. You need to restart your logic chain.

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    46. Re:Buggars! by Richard_at_work · · Score: 2

      I'm away from the desktop right now so I cant post citations, but I can think of several cases where removal of or tampering with a condom without consent for that particular action has been successfully prosecuted as rape in the UK, so no there isn't a fundamental issue of differing interpretations here at all.

    47. Re:Buggars! by atriusofbricia · · Score: 1

      Even if the charges are completely fabricated by someone, anyone (CIA the women in question etc.) it's absurd to think that the UK would refuse extradition to Sweden for something like this.

      Would the alleged crime be illegal in the UK? Yes.
      Does the UK have an extradition arrangement with Sweden (in this case as part of the EU I would figure)? Yes.
      Would the Swedish legal system treat him appropriately from the UK perspective if convicted of this particular crime, and will he get appropriate process? Yes, but that's why they have an extradition agreement at all.

      At that point he's just delaying the inevitable. If not, then you'd have to kick one or both of Sweden and the UK out of the EU for not upholding the same basic sets of rights and rules. The question of whether or not the US is fabricating the whole thing can be addressed fairly in sweden (at least the UK would consider it fair).

      Additionally, why do we care? Is it just because this egomaniac founded/was part of Wikileaks and this is Slashdot so therefore we care about anything connected to Wikileaks?

      --
      I was raised on the command line, bitch

      "Nemo me impune lacesset"

    48. Re:Buggars! by dcollins117 · · Score: 1

      The death penalty is a non-issue. The US prosecution simply has to promise they won't seek the death penalty.

      Is indefinite detention without being accused of a crime really any better? </rhetorical question>.

    49. Re:Buggars! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is a question of legal equality as stated in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which was one of the few legit points that Assange claimed in court. Alleged crimes of this nature has not brought extraditions of this kind before. This case has been singled out of all other cases of alledged rape of the lowest degree. To single out one alleged crime because of the notability of the accuses does not follow the rules of legal equality. This argument was, if memory serves me right, mostly ignored by the UK court.

    50. Re:Buggars! by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 1

      Tell me this... how can she NOT tell that he isn't wearing a condom the instant he penetrates her. Do all penises feel smooth and rubbery to her?

      --

      "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
    51. Re:Buggars! by DroolTwist · · Score: 1

      Ironic, given that he worked at Seatec Astronomy :)

      Too many secrets. Great flick, haven't seen it in a while.

    52. Re:Buggars! by ifiwereasculptor · · Score: 1

      Indefinite detention is a death sentence, it only takes way longer.

    53. Re:Buggars! by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Would the alleged crime be illegal in the UK? Yes.

      Right, but for extradition normally you have to be charged with a crime first. They have not charged him, they just want to question him which he offered to do either online or in person in the UK. Surely it would have been cheaper to just fly some Swedish police over to the UK than go through all this. In fact UK police go to other countries to investigate and question suspects all the time.

      Would the Swedish legal system treat him appropriately from the UK perspective if convicted of this particular crime, and will he get appropriate process? Yes, but that's why they have an extradition agreement at all.

      The worry is that the US will apply for extradition from Sweden. They might not get it from the UK because he would be treated as a terrorist and have his human rights violated. Alternatively they might just render him illegally of course.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    54. Re:Buggars! by Kijori · · Score: 1

      I think you might be becoming overly focussed on one detail. As I said above, even ignoring completely the no-condom allegation there is plenty with which to charge him, in Sweden or in England. The question of whether deceiving someone about whether you will use a condom should be a crime, or whether he in fact deceived her here, is an irrelevant sideshow.

    55. Re:Buggars! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Swedish men sit down to pee, or they are charged with mind-rape.

    56. Re:Buggars! by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      The US has an extradition treaty with the UK too, so I wonder why they are taking such an indirect route.

      To give them time to break Bradley Manning. To either cast Assange as the bad guy outright, or to get Manning to cop a plea in return for a reduced sentence - in return for throwing Assange under the bus.

    57. Re:Buggars! by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      In the UK you can fight extradition on the grounds that your human rights will be violated if you are sent to the US. Assange claims he would be treated as a terrorist and probably thrown in Guantanamo, so at the very least it would be a very long and protracted legal battle.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    58. Re:Buggars! by alexo · · Score: 1

      Would the alleged crime be illegal in the UK? Yes.

      Is he charged with a crime?
      I was under the impression that he's only wanted for questioning.

    59. Re:Buggars! by Joce640k · · Score: 4, Informative

      So does the UK...

      Not like Sweden. Sweden has an arrangement with the USA which allows them to temporarily transfer somebody in their custody to the USA for questioning on charges not related to crimes committed in Sweden. This "temporary surrender" bypasses the normal legal processes needed for extradition.

      Cites: http://justice4assange.com/US-Extradition.html

      Bottom line: The easiest way for the USA needs to get their hands on him is to get him into Sweden. After that he can vanish. And it's all perfectly legal.

      --
      No sig today...
    60. Re:Buggars! by Joce640k · · Score: 2, Informative

      Impossible, sweden cannot extradite him without UK consent. (illegal to extradite after you been extradited from different country in european law)

      Nope. Sweden has a special treaty with the USA which allows them to hand him over with almost no legal process: http://justice4assange.com/US-Extradition.html

      --
      No sig today...
    61. Re:Buggars! by Sir_Sri · · Score: 1

      Richard_at_Work in replies above laid it out. The UK judges agree it would be a crime in the UK on all four accusations.

      Also, they only really need a valid warrant, he doesn't have to be charged yet. Depends on exactly the agreement and sweden have though.

    62. Re:Buggars! by Sir_Sri · · Score: 1

      Richard_At_Work posted above the legal ruling in the UK that covered that it would. (it's buried within a reply to the thread but it's there).

    63. Re:Buggars! by Sir_Sri · · Score: 1

      Correct. But that doesn't matter. They can still issue a warrant to question him. Their legal system, and it's up to the UK if what they want to agree to extradite for it. Since that's in the treaties they have there's not a lot of room for manouvre here.

    64. Re:Buggars! by Sir_Sri · · Score: 1

      Within the EU? Probably not. Even if it is... so what? Sweden and the UK have treaties, if this falls within the realm of the treaties it's up to the swedes if it's worth pursuing.

    65. Re:Buggars! by Sir_Sri · · Score: 1

      I think that's pretty much a non point though. He's within the EU, the UK and Sweden are both EU members and have extradition arrangements. It's up to Sweden how much effort it wants to put into any individual case, but as long as it meets their agreed upon thresholds there's no reason he can't be the person extradited that meets the bare minimum requirements to do so.

    66. Re:Buggars! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The problem comes from the fact that in Sweden, what he did IS considered a sex crime. The confusion comes from the fact that there is no equivalent charge for what they have and the rough translation for sex crime is "rape." Thusly, he has been and never will be charged with "rape." Regardless, according to local law, and two women, he did commit a crime. So while the crime he reportedly did commit is not technically "rape", "rape" as in sex crime, is the nearest approximation.

      Also, from what I've read, the women consented to have sex. He was supposed to wear a condom. Its when they discovered they both has unprotected sex in spite of their requests to the contrary, that they filed their complaint. And honestly, if what they claim is true, what he did should be a crime even if no diseases were communicated.

    67. Re:Buggars! by Soporific · · Score: 1

      This is pretty weak sauce all around. Should it also be a crime for a guy to say he will marry you to get in your pants and then doesn't? Or can we just chalk a few of these things up to experience and move on?

      ~S

    68. Re:Buggars! by Soporific · · Score: 2

      How many women have been charged with rape for tampering with a condom because they want to get pregnant? I'd be curious to see how evenly this law is applied.

      ~S

    69. Re:Buggars! by Xest · · Score: 2

      Well I'm sure if you go down to your local rape crisis centre and say that you'll find no women who disagree, nope, none at all. Anyone who has been involved with rape victims, either because they themselves were raped and went to the crisis centre and met other victims, or simply because they like to help them out will be able to point you to many cases, perhaps even their own.

      Seriously, if you hate Assange, that's fine. But don't talk bullshit and trivialise the issue with it simply because you want to try and bolster the view that the decision against Assange was nothing unusual.

      The only point you could really bring up that would be valid is that it's usually jury cases that decide this sort of thing, but perhaps there's the problem, that Assange didn't get the benefit of having the case decided by his peers.

      See this article, which highlights the problem well and has many parallels to Assange's case:

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-422969/Not-guilty-rape-surgeon-slept-women-night.html

      Still, I look forward to those citations that prove that there has never been any inconsistency in this sort of thing when you're back at your desk and that all, if not at least the vast majority of such decisions have been the same.

    70. Re:Buggars! by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Even worse. When I was a teenager one of my friends had one of his grandmothers hat pins. He liked to go into the 'preppy' bars and punch it through the whole stack of rubbers in the machine in the bathroom. Most weekends he would hit all the machines.

      I bet he didn't even know he was a serial rapist.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    71. Re:Buggars! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      See, what I find odd is that his defence would use this argument.
      I can honestly claim that even if I was under threat of a rape conviction
      in Sweden, I would absolutely NOT try to argue that such acts are not illegal.
      I don't care if technically I would be correct in such an argument, I
      simply would not use such an argument as I consider it outright disgusting.

      Maybe I'm even more stubborn about my principles than Assange, but I
      just don't agree with the idea that you should use whatever argument gets
      the job done. If I were to have a custody fight, I could proably benefit by
      making a bunch of false accusations, but that doesn't make it right to do so.

      Seriously, the only chance he would have had at this case would eb to argue
      that the particular prosecutor has demanded extradiction on poor grounds.
      Cirticising Sweden's justice system in general was not going to go anywhere.
      He may have had a better chance if he had focused on the irregularities
      surounding the case, but what he has done is going to do little else but piss
      off the Swedish courts when he inevitably gets extradicted.

    72. Re:Buggars! by Sparticus789 · · Score: 0

      I didn't hear anyone complain about the USA "policing" the world during World War I, World War II, Korean War, or Operation Desert Storm.

      We could always give Europe back to the Nazis, the entire Korean Peninsula back to the Kim Jong-un, and give Kuwait back to the Ba'ath party. Until you find those terms acceptable, don't complain.

      --
      sudo make me a sandwich
    73. Re:Buggars! by alexo · · Score: 1

      Correct. But that doesn't matter. They can still issue a warrant to question him. Their legal system, and it's up to the UK if what they want to agree to extradite for it. Since that's in the treaties they have there's not a lot of room for manouvre here.

      Is it spelled out in the extradition treaty that people not charged with a crime (therefore: not accused) are to be extradited?
      I would be very much surprised if that's the case so, regrettably, I must go [citation needed] on you.

    74. Re:Buggars! by Aryden · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually this is quite incorrect. The UK has quite strict rule regarding extradition, generally they will only extradite someone if the alleged crime is a crime in both the UK and the requester country. This was the initial argument brought to the extradition hearings and why the UK decided to hear it all out first. On the other hand, Sweden and the US have some very loose and flimsy extradition agreements. You can be extradited from Sweden to the US for virtually anything. The US and the UK have extradition agreements but they are far more rigid and complex. The US would have had very little luck getting him out of the UK.

      The real problem here is that once you read all of the available information and do maybe 5 minutes worth of research, you start to draw a picture that this really is a fabrication. Whether they have done it for attention or whether they do it for a government, doesn't really matter. But they do not decide to seek police assistance until AFTER they have texted each other, after Ardin throws a party FOR Assange, after she tweets bragging about the party, her guests and Assange.

      Now, do I believe that the behavior would be abhorrent if true? Yes, most certainly. Do I draw a personal conclusion about the events that took place, the two women and Assange? No, I wasn't there, I do not know the truth of the matter and I will not mentally convict of raping a woman when I have absolutely no clue as to whether or not he really did it.

    75. Re:Buggars! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Having a nice little circle-jerk with yourself there, bonch/noh8rz3/Sparticus789/crazyjj?

    76. Re:Buggars! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I presume you're an expert on being the receiver of penetrative intercourse, and able to tell us without a doubt that it's trivial to tell the difference between a penis in a condom and a penis without a condom, based solely on how it feels penetrating you?

      Or are you just assuming that it's trivially easy to detect the difference because when you get fisted by a big Turkish guy at your bath, you can tell if he's wearing his wedding ring or not?

    77. Re:Buggars! by chrb · · Score: 1

      Would the alleged crime be illegal in the UK? Yes.

      Please cite the law in question and show how it applies to Assange's specific behavior of not wearing a condom after promising he would.

      It does not matter - UK law allows extradition for an alleged offence even if it is not recognised under UK law:

      "The Extradition Act 2003, in implementing the European Arrest Warrant scheme, effectively abolishes dual criminality for extradition requests within the EU in respect of 32 categories of offences listed in the European Framework. This means that for these offences a person sought by an EU country can be extradited even if the alleged offence is not one recognised in the UK." http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/human-rights/justice/extradition/index.php

    78. Re:Buggars! by Phrogman · · Score: 1

      Now Assange can enjoy a short flight to Sweden, a longer flight to Guantanamo bay in restraints and with a bag over his head, followed by a quick execution, and then a lengthy trial. :(

      --
      "The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
    79. Re:Buggars! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SPAM ALERT:

      This is a personal offer for: [#DirtyPiratingDownloader]

      First Bay International Travel Agency

      See beautiful Sweden! Arrangement includes one Mystery Trip free of charge^H^H^H^H^H at no additional cost.

      Call now for low-low-low price!

    80. Re:Buggars! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "withdrawal of consent" = post facto extortion

    81. Re:Buggars! by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "I didn't hear anyone complain about the USA "policing" the world during World War I, World War II, Korean War, or Operation Desert Storm"

      You just were not listening.

    82. Re:Buggars! by santax · · Score: 2

      Yes, the USA fried Europa from Nazi's... Hey dickhead, what year did the USA enter the war? Ever heared of Lend Lease? The Aussies, Canadians, Brits, Polish and Russians did a whole lot more then you fags.

    83. Re:Buggars! by swalve · · Score: 1

      As it should be. The "but Mom, you let HIM have a cookie" defense is silly.

    84. Re:Buggars! by Sparticus789 · · Score: 0

      Your definition of "a whole lot" seems to be wrong. Yes, they all contributed. But if they accomplished so much, why did it take the US Army to establish a European beach head? Why did it take the US Marine Corp to take back the conquests of Japan?

      I would never doubt their contributions, however the Nazi's were winning until the U.S. stepped in.

      --
      sudo make me a sandwich
    85. Re:Buggars! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not wearing a condom and the girl changes their mind afterwards is not a crime in UK.

    86. Re:Buggars! by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 1

      It is Swedish law. Not American not british but Swedish law

      What I do not understand is, why the UK court has to obey a Swedish Law ?

      Care to elaborate ?

      --
      Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    87. Re:Buggars! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the U.S is only country beating back the grammar Nazis too. Keep those stray apostrophes before every letter S coming boys!

    88. Re:Buggars! by TranquilVoid · · Score: 1

      Remember legal definitions of terms sometimes don't match up with common usage. This can be fine, but it has the effect of diluting the meaning, so if we hear someone was convicted of rape we can't assume it was a violent attack at knifepoint.

      I can see this both ways. Rape seems a term best reserved for forcing sex against consent, not for deception, but the effects of deception are similar, feelings of violation etc. A loose analogy would be breaking into a home and tying up the owners versus deceiving them into leaving the house then robbing it.

      Your linked story doesn't necessarily apply to the condom argument. That was a simple question of whether the girls gave (informed) consent or not - they claim they were unconscious and he had sex with them. That's clearly rape if true/provable. The Assange details are unclear and may contain a similar sleep/unconsciousness situation, but this thread is about consenting to sex on a condition (wearing of a condom) and the man not fulfulling that condition unbeknownst to the woman.

      It would be interesting to apply this to breach-of-contract, a civil matter. In the case of promising to marry, the damages would be very substantial.

    89. Re:Buggars! by Elldallan · · Score: 1

      It's not about a UK court obeying Swedish law, it's about international treaties that the UK and Sweden have signed and the UK court has to obey treaties signed by the UK government.
      Assange is accused of committing a crime while under Swedish jurisdiction and the Swedish legal system has requested that he be returned to Sweden for interrogation and possibly to face charges. As members of EU Sweden and the UK have an extradition treaty and Sweden have requested that he be extradited in accordance with that treaty.
      The UK court can refuse if they believe that the extradition request was invalid or improperly filed etc. or if they have serious doubts that Assange would get a fair and impartial trial in Sweden.
      What actual law Assange broke in Sweden and what the punishment for that crime is as long as it meets certain minimum requirements outlined in the treaty and that the death penalty is not a possible sentence(but since Sweden abolished the death penalty long ago...)
      IANAL

    90. Re:Buggars! by the_arrow · · Score: 1

      And if that happens, it will be an enormous political scandal, and it will be take to the highest European court where Sweden will be punished.

      --
      / The Arrow
      "How lovely you are. So lovely in my straightjacket..." - Nny
    91. Re:Buggars! by khipu · · Score: 1

      Sure! Because when an Australian citizen is accused of rape by Swedish feminists and extradited from the UK to Sweden as a consequence, the most natural explanation is that the USA must be behind it all!

      Up next: how the USA manipulated the Greek and Spanish governments into adopting socialist policies in order to sabotage the Euro!

      (Of course, the US has every right to demand extradition of Assange if he is indicted in the US, just like any other nation that's party to an extradition treaty.)

    92. Re:Buggars! by khipu · · Score: 1

      So what do you propose? Assange should go free because he managed to get to the UK before a Swedish court could look at his case? Or what?

      The proper place to settle whether this was rape or not is in Sweden, by a Swedish court.

    93. Re:Buggars! by FhnuZoag · · Score: 1

      Yes. The main reason the Swedes are in this is to clear *their* name. If they were to give up on Assange now, that's tantamont to admitting the criticism of the pro-Assange camp of them is correct, and that anyone can escape the process of justice by merely being famous enough or making enough trouble.

    94. Re:Buggars! by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

      And the CIA clearly has control over the British and Swedish justice systems

      Yes. CIA ordered the extradition of two terrorists from Sweden outside the legal framework. Wikileaks' Amazon, VISA and Mastercard accounts have been closed outside the legal framework for alleged terrorism. Wikileaks DNS records have been removed with a similar heavy-handed measure (a completely ridiculous move but also an incredibly aggressive one). I understand why Assange finds it credible that as soon he lands in Sweden he will be put back in a plane and directed toward U.S.A.

      One thing, however, that might save his ass is the US senator who said that Assange deserved the death penalty. It is forbidden for a EU state to authorize extradition of a criminal or a suspect if there is reason to believe that he will be executed (we don't do that in EU, that's barbaric and contrary to human rights :-p ).

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    95. Re:Buggars! by xenobyte · · Score: 1

      The core issue is this: Did Sweden provide guarantees that they would not extradite Assange to the US, as he's facing a cruel and unusual punishment there, possibly even a death sentence? - Basically it should be mandatory to return an extradicted person to the country from where this person was extradicted whenever the trial is over, or when the sentence is served, thus making certain that further chain extradition does not happen.

      --
      "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." -- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) --
    96. Re:Buggars! by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      There may be a scandal but politicians can handle that so long as they've been paid.

      OTOH how can Sweden be punished as a country if they've followed the law?

      Maybe the US Secretary of state's visit to Sweden last week was a coincidence (it's the first such visit in 36 years). Maybe she didn't mind Assanges's revelations about her involvement in illegal activities and his call for her resignation.

      Let's wait and see who's wrong about this. I think the public in general is ignorant enough about the affair for politicians to not worry too much, especially after the "rapist" smear campaign - who'd want to protect a rapist anyway?

      --
      No sig today...
    97. Re:Buggars! by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      PS:

      I'm not some sort of conspiracy nutter, quite the opposite, it's just that everything about this case smells rotten.

      This is a guy who's not accused of anything but is wanted for questioning related to a crime which has a maximum 750 Euro fine.

      How on earth does that translate into:

      a) An Interpol arrest warrant.

      Interpol's constitution only allows them to get involved in crimes which are committed by people in more than one country, and even then only for serious crimes (with a minimum jail sentence in years). Which part of what Julian Assange's accusation's fits that description?

      b) Extradition proceedings

      For a 750 Euro fine? Seriously?

      He's being extradited under some clause of an emergency extradition law for terrorists which was passed after 9/11. How does a terrorism law apply to somebody who's wanted for questioning for "surprise sex"? Last November the UK parliament called for "urgent reform" of the law after seeing what's happening. There's been no discussion so far, maybe it can wait until this is over.

      In short, everything about this stinks and it all points back to the USA.

      --
      No sig today...
    98. Re:Buggars! by HJED · · Score: 1

      Even if the charges are completely fabricated by someone, anyone (CIA the women in question etc.) it's absurd to think that the UK would refuse extradition to Sweden for something like this.

      Would the alleged crime be illegal in the UK? No

      FTFY
      The charge he is 'wanted for questioning' in relation too is not a crime in United Kingdoms. Consent can't be withdrawn after the fact in most countries.

      --
      null
    99. Re:Buggars! by Elldallan · · Score: 1

      To my knowledge no they didn't but since UK's extradition treaties with the US is more generous than the one the US has with Sweden I fail to see the relevance.

      Besides the US has yet to request an extradition from either country as far as I know and the only way Sweden would extradite someone to a country with the death penalty is if said country explicitly promises not to invoke the death penalty(and the Swedish legal system has reasonable faith that such a promise would be honored)

    100. Re:Buggars! by Elldallan · · Score: 1

      Either way the English law is irrelevant, for Assange to be extradited it only has to be a crime in Sweden and a validly filed European arrest warrant.
      According to Swedish law either party can withhold consent at any point before completion of the act, continuing after consent has been withdrawn is illegal regardless of circumstances.

    101. Re:Buggars! by Nyder · · Score: 1

      ... Let's get Tuttle, next.

      God I love that movie.

      for those who don't know or haven't seen it, it's a must.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil_(film)

      --
      Be seeing you...
    102. Re:Buggars! by Nyder · · Score: 1

      Your definition of "a whole lot" seems to be wrong. Yes, they all contributed. But if they accomplished so much, why did it take the US Army to establish a European beach head? Why did it take the US Marine Corp to take back the conquests of Japan?

      I would never doubt their contributions, however the Nazi's were winning until the U.S. stepped in.

      Okay, lets look at this way.

      Germany invaded Poland, bunch of country said, we are neutral.

      England, France, some other countries, declared war, did some attacks, and France got invaded for it. And gave the frack up.

      England wasn't really ready for a war and a full invasion, and considering that it kept getting bombed by Germany, they weren't having much luck.

      US, on the other hand, had great industrial resources and weren't being bombed by anyone (till Pearl Harbor that is).

      So ya, we turned the tide, but even if we hadn't, Russia was about to swoop down on their asses anyways.

      So they way I see it, USA not only saved Europe from the Nazi's, we also saved you from being commies.

      --
      Be seeing you...
    103. Re:Buggars! by Elldallan · · Score: 2

      Swedish law requires that for someone to be extradited to another country(not including Denmark, Norway or Finland) the act has to be criminal in Sweden as well and punishable by at least a year in prison, also both the Supreme Court AND the Swedish Government must consent to extradite an individual, if either of those instances does not approve of the extradition then it will not happen.

      Assange has yet to be accused for a crime, the police wants to hold interrogations with Assange to help determine whether a crime has been committed or not. Rape and molestation falls under public prosecution in Sweden so the government is by law required to do a thorough investigation and that cannot happen until Assange is returned to Sweden for questioning.
      If and when Assange is accused of a crime he will have his day in court and if the accusations are fabricated they can be unraveled in court and he will be released.

    104. Re:Buggars! by Kijori · · Score: 1

      I was responding to a post asking whether the charges would be criminal in the UK.

      Incidentally, the position as you state it in terms of withdrawing consent is also the position in the UK. Consent can be withdrawn at any time.

    105. Re:Buggars! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Would the alleged crime be illegal in the UK? NO

      He is accused of these things:

      In the middle of (one week long) relationship he (according to the woman) intentionally damaged condom before sex. The woman who is accusing him of this "rape" continued having consensual sex with him for several days after the incident.

      The second woman accused him of having sex with her while she was sleeping. It was again in the middle of the relationship and they had consensual sex several times after the incident.

      Both women accused him of these things after they found out about each other.
      If I remember correctly, both women have connection to the government of the USA (I think they were paid by them). I may be wrong about this last thing.

    106. Re:Buggars! by Magada · · Score: 1

      The prosecutor in the case actually posted a terse explanation some time ago to the effect that it IS possible, under Swedish law, as long as the UK also agrees.

      --
      Something bad is coming when people are suddenly anxious to tell the truth.
    107. Re:Buggars! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So in England, when you end a relationship, the girl can send you to prison just by saying that in one instance the sex you had was not voluntary?

    108. Re:Buggars! by Xest · · Score: 1

      The problem is that he hasn't even been charged, extradition for mere questioning is pretty odd.

      The most sensible option was to do what Assange's council proposed - the Swedish police question him in person, or via video link in the UK, and if they feel there is enough evidence, then charge him.

      The fact it's a prosecutor getting him extradited for questioning with no charges yet filed, and the fact the prosecutor is from a different region to that in which the crimes happened and would hence be normally responsible, and the fact that there is evidence the prosecutor coerced these women into actually filing the charges when they previously weren't interested in doing so is cause for concern that this is politically motivated, that the prosecution know they can't charge him on this due to lack of evidence, but need to get him into the country for a US extradition stitch up - at least, that is what Assange is concerned about.

      If they question him, and have enough evidence to charge, then they could simply do it that way and at least give the whole thing a semblance of looking legitimate whether it is or not.

      It's not unusual for suspects to be questioned remotely in the country they're in, or by visiting police, so it's a little odd that they're so desperate to avoid that in this case and so desperate to pluck him out the UK with so many obscure procedural quirks that don't normally happen such as the prosecutor issuing the extradition request rather than the police or courts.

      The danger is, if he is extradited, the whole thing is dropped because of lack of evidence to actually charge and then they go "Oh, but while you're hear, our friends in the US want a word, so we've booked a flight, it leaves in an hour to take you out of European jurisdiction where you're no longer protected to argue against this kind of illegal rendition...".

    109. Re:Buggars! by khipu · · Score: 1

      The problem is that he hasn't even been charged, extradition for mere questioning is pretty odd.

      Well, either the extradition request conforms to the treaty or it doesn't. Since a UK court looked at it and found it legal, whatever Sweden has must be sufficient.

      The danger is, if he is extradited, the whole thing is dropped because of lack of evidence to actually charge and then they go "Oh, but while you're hear, our friends in the US want a word, so we've booked a flight, it leaves in an hour to take you out of European jurisdiction where you're no longer protected to argue against this kind of illegal rendition...".

      If the CIA wants to abduct Assange in violation of EU law, they can do that from the UK, they don't have to go to Sweden.

      And if the US wants to extradite Assange under an extradition agreement with Sweden because he has been indicted in the US, that's legal and I don't have a problem with it. I don't see why you should either.

    110. Re:Buggars! by santax · · Score: 1

      No, nazi-germany was losing allready and big time. They bit of more then they could chew when they tried to get to moskow. Please, I know it's not your fault, but please forget everything you have learned at the american schools about WW2, because it doesn't do the truth any good. With that in mind I would like to say I did adopt a grave from a fallen unknown american soldier at Margraten, Netherlands. I have great respect for all those that lost their lives fighting the German occupier at that time, but it wasn't the USA that won that war. The only reason they got involved was because Japan hit them. Since Japan was together with the Germans, they also went to war with Germany. The reason that they came to 'help' (way too late) wasn't to help us, but to make sure Russia couldn't get all keypoints of Europe. If those 2 sides hadn't been allies and Russia wasn't winning from the Germans, the USA would have happily continued selling (!) weapons to us for very unreasonable prices. Books like IBM and the Holocaust give a good picture about the USA involvement at the time of the war and before the start of the war. Sure, at the start of the war they didn't had any army that would be up to par with the Germans, but they made a whole lot of money from the war, and not only money. These things should taught and not forgotten or buried. Also don;'t forget that the USA hired many top-nazi's after the war and made sure they couldn't get a trial so they could work at projects like the Manhattan-project. No, I am very sorry, but all in all one has to conclude, the USA wasn't a friend. All their actions were fed by selfish reasons. Does that make the guys on the beaches any less heroes? No... But it does make them tools for another mans cause.

    111. Re:Buggars! by Sparticus789 · · Score: 1

      Does that make the guys on the beaches any less heroes? No... But it does make them tools for another mans cause.

      As a former soldier, I do appreciate the sentiment. Lots of haters on here.... I knew before I joined that I would be used by some rich politician to further their career, happens every day in every country, and every soldier feels the same way. Many folks like to blame the soldier for the war, not the person ordering them to fight the war.

      --
      sudo make me a sandwich
    112. Re:Buggars! by Xest · · Score: 1

      "Well, either the extradition request conforms to the treaty or it doesn't. Since a UK court looked at it and found it legal, whatever Sweden has must be sufficient."

      Sure but this doesn't mean it was fair. Like much legislation it seems the extradition treaty was poorly thought through and implemented without a thought as to what happens if it is abused.

      This is the same problem we have for example with web snooping laws, it sounds great when politicians promise that it's simply for catching criminals, but it never ends that way does it?

      "If the CIA wants to abduct Assange in violation of EU law, they can do that from the UK, they don't have to go to Sweden."

      Contrary to the claims that the UK is an American lapdog, it does at least stand up for itself on some such issues. The UK political class is already struggling to justify the extradition of people like Gary McKinnon, adding Assange to the tally would've just ended the current UK-US extradition and blocked any attempt at a similar one. Sweden has in recent years been far more willing to be a US lapdog with the pirate bay raids that turned out to be unjustified under Sweden law, and the later show trial overseen by a judge who was a member of an MPAA affiliated lobby group. The lower courts that decide most trials in the UK are much more independent and generally do a pretty good job, the problem for the likes of the US is that they're not a sure thing, they cannot be guaranteed to do what they want - look at the OiNK case, the decision was fair and just, but it pissed America off no end, hence why we ended up hearing British police telling the FBI along the lines of "we're sorry, we could have done better, we'll do whatever you want from now". Even where British politicians are corrupt, where the newer puppet supreme court which is more easily politically influenced than past courts have been are corrupt, much of the rest of the British judiciary does a damn good job of retaining it's independence.

      "And if the US wants to extradite Assange under an extradition agreement with Sweden because he has been indicted in the US, that's legal and I don't have a problem with it. I don't see why you should either."

      Well it's really not. Part of the EU extradition treaty is that it has a safeguard stating it cannot be used to extradite to third states. This is really what's key - whether Sweden decides to ignore this or not. I care because it's an affront to justice, if you don't care, then I don't really have much to say to you - I'm not really interested in people who are of the lynch mob mentality, that sort of irrational mindset cannot be reasoned with and belongs to an era long past it's sell by date.

      But I get the impression you're not the sort of person who cares about the facts of the case and are simply trying to push the political ideology that seeks revenge for his embarassment of the US and other world governments, so I doubt what I say matters to you.

      Personally I don't care what happens to him, but I do care about the continued abuse of the EU-US relations, and poor laws that continue to infringe civil liberties and are a complete affront to justice people like my grandfather fought for. Assange may well be guilty and I could care less if he is, but I want him dealt with fairly, and sensibly. If he's going to be convicted because he's genuinely guilty he needs to be convicted without any doubt. The shenanigans surrounding this case leave more room for doubt that he isn't guilty, than he is, even if a Swedish court finds him such, and that in itself is a problem- because so much subversiveness has taken place in his case he's always going to be innocent to some people, even if he is in fact a rapist, and that stinks as much as anything too. The proper authorities in Sweden should've investigated, the proper authorities in Sweden should've questioned like they questioned anyone else, and the proper authorities should've issued the extradition request as was the intention of the extradition treaty, if not the wordin

    113. Re:Buggars! by dalias · · Score: 1

      Please spare me the pedantic misinterpretation of my words. Obviously we're not talking about after the fact. The allegation, as I understand it, is that consent was withdrawn when he decided to stick it in without a wrapper, and that he didn't respond to this withdrawal of consent. I have no way of knowing whether the allegation is true, but if it is, any sane legal system would consider it a crime.

    114. Re:Buggars! by khipu · · Score: 1

      But I get the impression you're not the sort of person who cares about the facts of the case and are simply trying to push the political ideology

      I'm just assuming that US, UK, and Swedish courts, judges, and prosecutors are generally doing their job until there is clear evidence to the contrary.

      that seeks revenge for his embarassment of the US and other world governments, so I doubt what I say matters to you.

      I think Assange is probably not guilty under US law, due to First Amendment protections. But I would have no problem with a US court making that determination; the case is important enough that clarity either way would be good for everybody. Of course, so far, he hasn't been indicted yet.

      All this b.s. about "revenge" and "embarassment" is tin-foil-hat conspiracies that exist only in your mind.

      they resort to just bending the rules and as the Swedes feel they have had to bend the rules so much in these cases

      You do not have the slightest idea whether the Swedes are "bending the rules" or what the rules in Sweden even are.

      Assange may well be guilty and I could care less if he is, but I want him dealt with fairly, and sensibly

      He's had his day in court in the UK, he's going to get his day in court in Sweden, and sooner or later, he's probably going to get his day in court in the US.

    115. Re:Buggars! by Xest · · Score: 1

      "I'm just assuming that US, UK, and Swedish courts, judges, and prosecutors are generally doing their job until there is clear evidence to the contrary."

      There does seem to be evidence to the contrary though, historically as I say British courts have been pretty good, but recently in the UK the supreme court was created, which has been given the power to overrule lower courts. Since it was created it's rulings seem to be consistently at odds with lower courts in cases where the lower courts ruled against the wishes of the government.

      Similarly in Sweden we've seen how a judge who has a vested interest in the prosecution succeding, and who was personal friends with the prosecutor can be allowed to preside over a case.

      I don't think it is safe to assume the courts in question are doing their jobs properly.

      "I think Assange is probably not guilty under US law, due to First Amendment protections. But I would have no problem with a US court making that determination; the case is important enough that clarity either way would be good for everybody. Of course, so far, he hasn't been indicted yet."

      I'm assuming now in this case you're referring to the Wikileaks leaks rather than the rape case? If so then I have to ask why you think it's even anything to do with US courts? Everything he did surrounding Wikileaks he did not do on US soil, nor was it illegal in the countries he did do it in. There is absolutely no case for him to answer in the US, period. This is why it's such a sham if he does get extradited to the US, and is an extremely disturbing precedent. It implies that Iran would be justified in expecting extradition of US porn producers because they had breached Iranian law from the US.

      Manning got the documents out of the US, and to Assange, Assange was in a country where it was legal to receive these leaked documents when he received them, and he was in a country where it was legal to whistleblow when he published them too.

      If you don't understand why it's a problem that if someone does something in one country that is perfectly legal, and is then extradited elsewhere because what he did is illegal elsewhere, even if he did not commit the crime there, then I don't think you have enough of an understanding of the concept of jurisdictions to even be engaging in this discussion. If you don't understand that, you don't understand that this precedent would mean that even you, yourself, could be yanked out of the comfort of your home in the US, and taken to foreign country, tried under foreign laws, for something that wasn't even breaking the law in your home country. I really hope you can at least understand why that's a major problem and shouldn't happen, ever.

      "All this b.s. about "revenge" and "embarassment" is tin-foil-hat conspiracies that exist only in your mind."

      So out comes the childishness I see? I think you'll find there's a lot of other people (probably a majority) who actually believe this too. It's not just in my mind, it's a pretty well established concern regarding revenge. As for the embarassment part, I'm sorry, are you seriously suggesting world governments and the US in particular weren't embarassed by Wikileak's revelations?

      "You do not have the slightest idea whether the Swedes are "bending the rules" or what the rules in Sweden even are."

      Thank you for deciding that for me, it's just a shame you aren't actually in a position to know what I do and do not know. The rules have been well discussed, and there are a lot of clear quirks in this case - some published by members of the Swedish judiciary themselves who are concerned about how things have been done. But then, I suppose you'll tell me other members of the Swedish judiciary don't understand Swedish law either? well, good luck arguing that one.

      "He's had his day in court in the UK, he's going to get his day in court in Sweden, and sooner or later, he's probably going to get his day in court in the US."

      I think you're probably right, but as I say the fundamental problem is that he has absolutely no reason to be tried in US court in the first place, as he has not broken any law (outside the rape case if he's deemed to be guilty) so does not even have any case to answer in the US.

    116. Re:Buggars! by khipu · · Score: 1

      I think you're probably right, but as I say the fundamental problem is that he has absolutely no reason to be tried in US court in the first place, as he has not broken any law (outside the rape case if he's deemed to be guilty) so does not even have any case to answer in the US.

      Well, and Assange hasn't been indicted or charged with anything. If he ever does, we can look at whether the indictment is justified. Right now, Assange and you are accusing the US over something you yourself fabricated.

    117. Re:Buggars! by Xest · · Score: 1

      Yes because it's not as if various US policy figures have suggested this is what should happen, or the US has a history of extraordinary rendition or anything is it?

    118. Re:Buggars! by santax · · Score: 1

      I'm glad you see it that way. While your choice to become a soldier wouldn't have been mine and we might disagree on some things, it's cool to see we have respect for each others opinions! The world would be great if everyone could have a disagreement and still have respect :) Best wishes to you!

    119. Re:Buggars! by khipu · · Score: 1

      Yes because it's not as if various US policy figures have suggested this is what should happen, or the US has a history of extraordinary rendition or anything is it?

      Politicians say outrageous things all the time. Just listing to the right wing and left wing crap coming from European politicians (nobody bothers to listen to them, of course).

      Has Assange been abducted? Indicted? No. So, stop accusing the US government as if he had been.

    120. Re:Buggars! by Xest · · Score: 1

      No he's just been green lighted for extradition to a country that is more accepting of further US extradition under rather suspicious circumstances.

      But I'm sure there's no getting through to you, you're an American Patriot after all! God bless America.

    121. Re:Buggars! by psiclops · · Score: 1

      yeah, but how well would it have gone if russia wasn't part of the war.

      it like this: if i take the spark plugs out of my car it won't start. that doesn't mean that the spark plugs are doing more than the rest of the car.

      --
      i spent five minutes thinking and all i got was this crappy sig
  2. Assange Kardashian? by sycodon · · Score: 1

    This all reminds me of a reality show now.

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    1. Re:Assange Kardashian? by Cryacin · · Score: 3, Funny

      There we go. If he marries one of them he's off the hook.

      Well, he'll probably wisely choose the death penalty anyway...

      --
      Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
    2. Re:Assange Kardashian? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it will be a sitcom - the court will order him to marry *both* of them!

      Oh, how we will all laugh!

  3. Hang on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I thought you had to be accused of a crime that is extraditable to be extradited.

    You can't be extradited for drinking alcohol in Saudi Arabia because that's not a crime here.

    1. Re:Hang on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, obviously, with such insight, and copius legal arguments citing case law in such impressive detail, you must be a lawyer who could really help out! Quick call the queen of the Brittish courts and relay your message post haste!

    2. Re:Hang on. by shaitand · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Sex without a condom isn't rape in most countries including the UK. He is wanted for questioning related to that, but isn't charged with any crime in any country.

    3. Re:Hang on. by Hatta · · Score: 1

      The actual act Assange is accused of would not be considered rape in any other country in the world.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    4. Re:Hang on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pretty sure that if the girl says "okay," but stipulates the precondition of a condom (e.g., "not without a condom, Julian!" or "put on the condom!"), and you go ahead and force yourself on her anyway without a condom, or misrepresent whether or not you're wearing a condom, that'll constitute rape.

      Please explain to us how it wouldn't. Rape is non-consensual sexual activity. If she withdraws her consent, or issues her consent with conditions, and you don't adhere to those conditions, she has a legitimate complaint.

      It has been alleged that he has committed a crime. The Swedish system doesn't file formal charges until after interviews are conducted. He's needed for an interview which will determine whether or not the prosecutor feels it's reasonable to press charges. He is being extradited for that interview, and to face the charges in Sweden, if charges are filed.

      If no charges are filed, he'll go have a chat with the prosecutor, and then be turned back over to UK custody. And since he's done nothing that would warrant the UK legal system continuing to hold him, he'll be a free man.

    5. Re:Hang on. by Baloroth · · Score: 2

      Continuing to have sex with someone after they express their unwillingness, however, can be a crime (and might be classified as "rape"). Why the woman in question chose to protest is irrelevant. He isn't being charged with having sex without a condom: he is being charged with having sex over the protests of his partner.

      You can claim she is accusing him not because she feels genuinely violated, but because of political reasons, and you may be right, but what he did could be considered a crime in Sweden and the UK, and just about everywhere else in the western world, depending on the facts of the case. But then, that is why he is being deported for questioning: so they can figure out what those facts are.

      --
      "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
    6. Re:Hang on. by JBMcB · · Score: 1

      It is when the woman involved said that she didn't want to have sex with him *without* a condom.

      --
      My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
    7. Re:Hang on. by Rei · · Score: 1

      To be more specific, it's that the girl insisted he wear one but he didn't. Thereby violating the conditions on which her consent to sex rested. And that's only one of four charges.

      --
      I am Melllvar, Keeper of the Tapes!
    8. Re:Hang on. by Entropius · · Score: 0

      (or vagina)

    9. Re:Hang on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It has been alleged that he has committed a crime. The Swedish system doesn't file formal charges until after interviews are conducted. He's needed for an interview which will determine whether or not the prosecutor feels it's reasonable to press charges. He is being extradited for that interview, and to face the charges in Sweden, if charges are filed.

      So they couldn't just ask the UK legal authorities to provide an interview room and get this over with? Then they could have filed for extradition with charges attached if it got to that, but would have skipped the entire extradition circus if they decided not to file charges.

    10. Re:Hang on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Really? Forcing himself (sans condom) on someone when their consent clearly stipulates the use of a condom? When the consent is implicitly withdrawn if he DOES NOT have a condom?

      Because shit man, if that's the case, I've been caught a few times without a condom, and suffered blue balls as a result until I could rub one out to relieve some pressure. If I had known that the expert legal team of Hatta & Sons, LLC would clear me of any wrongdoing, I would've just banged her anyway, even if she said no!

      You know, since it's not RAPE to force myself on her if she at SOME point consented to me doing anything sexual with her whatsoever. I guess we could call it the "I got needs that these bitches need to satisfy" defense. I'm sure it'll be airtight.

    11. Re:Hang on. by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 2

      He's being extradited for questioning, something perfectly routine.

      Also the sex without condom is not the only charge:

      "The first complaint described a situation in which Assange held down the arms of the woman known as AA, preventing her from reaching a condom as he attempted to pry her legs open with his own legs in order to penetrate her vaginally. AAâ(TM)s subsequent consent to intercourse after he had agreed to put on a condom, they found, did not render Assangeâ(TM)s alleged initial use of force against her lawful."

    12. Re:Hang on. by 91degrees · · Score: 2

      Sex without a condom isn't the alleged crime. Sex without consent it, and whether consent was given is rather complex here.

    13. Re:Hang on. by misexistentialist · · Score: 1

      The facts can never be determined because there can be no evidence of psychological crime. Eating someone's food in the office fridge is more of a "violation" than most cases of "date rape".

    14. Re:Hang on. by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      As long as they don't extend this precedent. If they can apply the condition ('Only if you make my toes curl') we're all in deep deep shit.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    15. Re:Hang on. by scot4875 · · Score: 2

      The other charges are even more ludicrous. Pressing his erect penis against her while they were in bed counts as 'molestation'? Similarly with laying on top of the other one? (Just laying on top of her -- not forcing anything on her). A lot of women actually enjoy that stuff!

      Sex is enough of a legal minefield in the US; I pity Swedish guys. You can have consensual sex with someone, wake up in the morning and express indication that you'd like more (and be met with denial), then part ways amicably and a few days later the woman can decide, "you know what, I didn't like being rubbed up against. Rape!" It's a mockery of actual rape cases.

      --Jeremy

      --
      Jesus was a liberal
    16. Re:Hang on. by scot4875 · · Score: 1

      You know, since it's not RAPE to force myself on her if she at SOME point consented to me doing anything sexual with her whatsoever. I guess we could call it the "I got needs that these bitches need to satisfy" defense. I'm sure it'll be airtight.

      That's not the point, but nice strawman.

      --Jeremy

      --
      Jesus was a liberal
    17. Re:Hang on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This, if anything, is bullshit. You AC know very little about the Swedish society.

    18. Re:Hang on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. And of course the rape victim would also invite you to a party the next day. They all do that, but it's very confusing for the man who naturally assumes the party invitation implies she still likes him. Very confusing.

    19. Re:Hang on. by Rei · · Score: 1

      You're again distorting the charges. Concerning pressing his penis against her, they were at that time in a bed in a non-sexual manner. And the "laying on top", the charge is that he also was trying to pry her legs open.

      --
      I am Melllvar, Keeper of the Tapes!
    20. Re:Hang on. by shaitand · · Score: 1

      Rape is non-consensual intercourse, not sexual activity. Rape is a violent physical assault against someone who does not want the physical contact. Please do not trivialize rape to include terms and conditions.

      Now if the girl saw the lack of condom and withdrew consent and he forced himself on her anyway then it becomes a physical and mental assault. You can't retroactively rewind and turn pleasurable consenting sex into rape because you find out someone misrepresented a detail after the fact. It might make them a bad person, it might be grounds to dump them, or in the case of an STD it might be another sort of crime. But it is not rape.

      "issues her consent with conditions, and you don't adhere to those conditions, she has a legitimate complaint"

      She certainly has a legitimate complaint. Rape just isn't it. Rape is a violent and devastating act that leaves permanent mental scars on the victim. The penalties for that act are set accordingly and do not fit the trivial sort of circumstances you suggest redefining rape to include. The worst that happens from wearing a condom without permission is a baby and deceit or no that is the fault of the groupie who has sex with strangers and leaves them wearing a condom to the honor system just as much as it is the fault of the guy who didn't wear it. That is why we have child support payment.

    21. Re:Hang on. by shaitand · · Score: 1

      "Continuing to have sex with someone after they express their unwillingness, however, can be a crime (and might be classified as "rape")."

      She consented on the condition that he use a condom, the condom broke without her knowledge, he finished anyway. That might make him an asshole and certainly invites the karmic punishment of an unwanted pregnancy but it isn't criminal and it certainly isn't rape. I'm fairly sure it wouldn't be rape in the UK. If Nigeria (random choice, sorry Nigerians) outlaws opening doors and calls the charge "murder" does that mean they can expect the UK to extradite all suspected but not charged door opening murderers immediately?

    22. Re:Hang on. by shaitand · · Score: 3, Interesting

      When the woman wanted to have sex with him but only with a condom but didn't care enough to enforce that beyond the honor system. In your mind that constitutes the cruel and vicious physical attack that is rape? I'm sorry but there is no set of circumstances under which the woman wants to be penetrated and it is still rape. There are few where she could find out something later that is a different crime for instance if the man had a life threatening STD but it doesn't magically become rape as well. Actual rape is a vicious crime on par with attempted murder. There are real rape victims out there and this demeans them.

      You can't rape by technicality. Rape isn't about a technical contract of consent it's about physically forcing yourself on to an unwilling sex partner. If you knowingly force yourself on an unwilling partner as a condition of doing something for them or not telling their partner about an affair or some other terms THAT is rape.

    23. Re:Hang on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In feminist countries, all sex is crime.

    24. Re:Hang on. by shaitand · · Score: 2

      You can't be in bed with someone you've had sex with in a non-sexual manner and pressing your penis against someone is not molestation if that person is laying in bed with you and continues doing so. It's an advance, it might be an unwelcome advance but that isn't criminal.

      "To be more specific, it's that the girl insisted he wear one but he didn't. Thereby violating the conditions on which her consent to sex rested."

      Ludicrous was right. There was no exaggeration there. Sorry that is grounds to consider him an ass not rape. Rape isn't a sexual consent contract violation its a brutal physical and mental attack on an unwilling party. The GP was right, this kind of thing demeans real rape victims.

      This stuff isn't criminal by any sane measure and if it were it would be on par with jaywalking. What next, it becomes rape to misrepresent marital and financial status to get a woman to sleep with you? It becomes rape to misrepresent anything because her consent was given under false terms? Rape is not some personal responsibility scapegoat for women. If it's important he not wear a condom you actually make sure he is wearing one. If its important to you to not have unanticipated results that fall within a reasonable expectation of what could happen when getting drunk at a party with friends then don't get drunk at the party. Why is a drunk driver responsible for the outcome of their choice to become intoxicated but a woman is not? Sorry, if you got gangbanged at the frat house after you got wasted on jello shots and passed out on the couch, you shouldn't be blaming frat boys. You should be owning the completely foreseeable consequences of your irresponsible acts.

    25. Re:Hang on. by shaitand · · Score: 1

      In most places that would be called foreplay.

    26. Re:Hang on. by shaitand · · Score: 1

      Was she unwilling to a degree that the sex act was a horrible physical and mental assault permanently marking her psyche and shattering her as a person? No? Then consent was given. It isn't a contract with tricky terms. Don't demean actual rape victims by grouping people who misplaced trust in sex partners with them. Not using a condom, continuing after one breaks, lying to her about herpes/crabs, anything else that is a typical act for pretty much every horny male in the world at some point. Those aren't rape or even criminal.

      In the same way don't demean little boys who were forcibly analy penetrated by adults by grouping someone laying on a bed rubbing their penis against a girl in an intimate setting under the heading of "molestation"

    27. Re:Hang on. by Phrogman · · Score: 1

      Plus of course there is the fact that he has ALREADY BEEN INTERVIEWED after being required to stay in Sweden for a month. Then the charges were dropped because there was insufficient evidence of a crime, and he was told he was free to go.

      Then another prosecutor comes out of the blue and decides to start the whole thing up again with no apparent new evidence for motivation. Apparently one of the women involved has ties to the CIA. The extradition for questioning back to Sweden is rather unusual given he isn't even charged with anything.

      Despite all the people saying its nothing but tinfoil hat time if you think the US is going to grab him when he gets to Sweden, its a whole host of unusual circumstances all associated with an individual the US Government wants badly. I don't think much tinfoil is required honestly.

      --
      "The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
    28. Re:Hang on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can't retroactively rewind and turn pleasurable consenting sex into rape because you find out someone misrepresented a detail after the fact.

      I see. So we're on to blaming the victim now. Thanks for playing, but you've just lost any credibility or right to open your ignorant mouth in the matter.

      If your penis is inside a woman's vagina, and she is not okay with that, then that *is* rape, friend. I'm sorry if you your rapt, mindless adoration for Julian Assange prevents you from seeing that, but you are WRONG.

      I have seen the devastating consequences of rape. If you had, you would never mouth such piously ignorant lines as what you've just shared with the world, where you try to narrow the definition of rape to excuse your personal hero, who has done nothing except make an obnoxious twat of himself on the international stage. Shame on you.

    29. Re:Hang on. by JBMcB · · Score: 1

      Rape is non-consensual sex. That's it. It doesn't have to be violent, all it requires is a lack of consent. If there are conditions of sex that aren't followed, it's still rape.

      This is actually covered under Swedish law.

      --
      My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
    30. Re:Hang on. by shaitand · · Score: 1

      How does saying something is covered under Swedish law support an argument against a stance that Swedish law is ridiculous? By definition, it has to be covered under Swedish law in order to be a ridiculous charge! Rape existed before Swedish law. Swedish law incorrectly defining rape makes Swedish law wrong, it does not make the thing rape. If the law calls something other than forcing yourself on a member of the other gender rape the law is wrong.

      Next up, ripping off a prostitute is rape!

    31. Re:Hang on. by TranquilVoid · · Score: 1

      Why is a drunk driver responsible for the outcome of their choice to become intoxicated but a woman is not? Sorry, if you got gangbanged at the frat house after you got wasted on jello shots and passed out on the couch

      It's a passive versus active thing, and it's not the decision to become intoxicated but the decision to drive.

      A drunk decision is still a decision. Being unconscious means no decision can be made, and therefore no consent can be given.

      What you are suggesting is akin to claiming that if you make the decision to walk down a dark alley then the 'entirely predictable' result of being mugged is your fault. Perhaps this becomes blurry when the result of an action is so obvious that you could be accused of deliberately placing yourself in harm's way. There is an interesting princple on the sharing of cupability between two interdependent actors but I can't recall the name.

    32. Re:Hang on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I carry around ten short pencil stubs and some duct tape for exactly this situation.

    33. Re:Hang on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It reminds me a joke. A woman is told that the banknote she is trying to use is fake. She answers "It means that I was raped!".

    34. Re:Hang on. by shaitand · · Score: 1

      "It's a passive versus active thing, and it's not the decision to become intoxicated but the decision to drive."

      After you are intoxicated your judgement is compromised. That is why it is considered rape to have sex with an intoxicated female, even if she consents. As I've stated before, I disagree with this. The only 'harm' done to a female in a rape is the lasting mental trauma of the experience. If she didn't experience trauma because she was passed out or because she was willing when it happened there is no harm. At least no more harm than is left when a female regrets sleeping with anyone after the fact. If there were dangerous STD's involved that is a different sort of harm and pregnancy isn't considered harm and imposes its own consequences to both parties.

      "What you are suggesting is akin to claiming that if you make the decision to walk down a dark alley then the 'entirely predictable' result of being mugged is your fault."

      There is a big difference. Mugging someone is an innately harmful criminal act regardless of circumstances. You are threatening to hurt them, maybe following through, you are stealing from them. If I place myself in the dark alley then yes, I am personally responsible for what happened to me. I can't make all the muggers in the world disappear but I can avoid making myself an easy target. The power to solve the problem is mine and therefore I have the responsibility. But my responsibility doesn't alleviate the responsibility of the mugger for his own actions. Sex is different than mugging because it is not an innately criminal or harmful act. Having sex with someone doesn't damage them. The damage in a rape is the mental trauma of enduring the experience. If you weren't unwilling in a way that resulted in that trauma you might not have technically been consenting, but you weren't harmed either.

    35. Re:Hang on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, it checks out.

    36. Re:Hang on. by TranquilVoid · · Score: 1

      That is why it is considered rape to have sex with an intoxicated female, even if she consents.

      Ok, this was the opposite of my assumption, but some quick checking indicates this seems to be the case in my country. I agree this is wrong, and shows an inconsistency with the philosophy behind laws such as drunk driving.

      Further, it would imply that a drunken male's decision to force himself on a female could not be considered rape. Possibly an argument could be made that consent is different from a decision (passive versus active again), as in if a drunken female propositioned a male rather than accepting the male's proposition, but that seems thin to me.

      This leads to the Kafkaesque situation of two drunken people theoretically raping each other, not to mention 'shameful years of mutual abuse' in long-term couples who drink together.

      The best argument I can think of for this is that it is known a drunk person's decision making ability is impaired (as we know of children or mentally disabled people) and therefore deliberately using that is an abuse of power.

      There is a big difference [...] Having sex with someone doesn't damage them. The damage in a rape is the mental trauma of enduring the experience.

      I disagree, this is still victim blaming. The analogy is not perfect but the equivalent would be saying that giving away money is not inherently harmful, but the forced 'giving away' during a mugging is traumatic. Yes, the lost money is inherently harmful but generally the trauma is worse (compare to somebody stealing $100 using your credit card number). Also, how about the case of a woman walking down a dark alley and being raped? Is this just as must her fault as if she "got gangbanged at the frat house after [getting] wasted on jello shots"?

    37. Re:Hang on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Next up, ripping off a prostitue is rape

      And what do you call it, when your penis is inside of her, against her will?

      The transaction with a prostitue is crystal clear: "you pay me $X, I let you stick your penis inside me and move it around until you reach orgasm; then one or both of us leaves, depending on whose place we're at."

      If you have sex with a prostitute and refuse to pay (and, for the record - almost every prostitute in the world will require you to pay up front, for just this reason), then you have engaged in sex with her without her consent. You have raped her. Sorry champ, you lose.

    38. Re:Hang on. by shaitand · · Score: 1

      "And what do you call it, when your penis is inside of her, against her will?"

      A contract violation and not worthy of any greater punishment than any other debt not paid. Indeed she has grounds to sue. If she had a better lobby she could buy a theft of service law otherwise it would be a civil thing.

      The hooker doesn't get retroactively traumatized when you fail to pay her after. Rape is about her state of mind during the experience and the trauma caused by it, not technicalities regarding consent terms. I'd find it more convincing if one made the argument that you were raping the hooker because she isn't likely to want the interaction and therefore is suffering that trauma despite any payment agreement even if that agreement is honored. Of course, the fact that she volunteered for the experience would generally absolve one from criminal wrongdoing as it should in any case where the victim volunteers to be victimized.

    39. Re:Hang on. by shaitand · · Score: 1

      Me. Preposterous example to illustrate why rape can't be defined as a technical violation of consent. Failing to pay prostitute would be rape if we used that logic.

      You. Failing to pay prostitute would be technical violation of consent and therefore rape. Sorry champ, you lose. Go me and my awesome debate skillz!

      A common punishment for rape would be 10 years or more being beaten and sexually violated in a prison. When you get out you are never employable again and generally go on a sex offender list so that for the rest of the your life all your neighbors will know what you did, 10, 20, 40 years ago. That punishment might make sense for a violent attack that did severe physical and/or psychological damage to the victim as is required to constitute rape under the standard I am specifying. Which part of not paying a hooker is the crime which is fit by that punishment?

  4. It's sad by axlr8or · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't want to live in a world where people fear the truth. As you can see, it is a problem that the lies only get bigger and bigger. Assange shouldn't fear going to court to display the truth. But everyone knows its just a stunt to get him put away.

    1. Re:It's sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Assange shouldn't fear going to court to display the truth.

      It remains to be seen if that has anything to do with the case. One guess about the future turn of events is that he is found not guilty of rape, but then immediately arrested again in order to be extradited one more time over a different alleged crime. If things actually turn out that way, then it is a clear miscarriage of justice.

  5. Guilty? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well. He might just be guilty. If he would have replied to the prosecutors questions directly he would be either convicted or acquitted by now, most probably the sentence that was correct as Swedish courts are as good as any other west European...

    My guess is that he consider himself guilty as he goes to these extreme lengths to evade the questioning (there is no prosecution yet).

    1. Re:Guilty? by DynamoJoe · · Score: 1

      I won't consider him guilty until he's convicted, and maybe not even then. He had to know as soon as he gave up anonymity, something like this would happen to him. The powers that be will ruin him as much as they can, as publicly as they can, both as a warning to others and as a distraction from the truths he helped reveal.

      --
      bah.
    2. Re:Guilty? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      iirc he's made numerous attempts to speak with prosecutors both before and after he left switzerland. i believe he was even told he was free to go by one prosecutor before leaving.

      what's happened is a second prosecutor has (unprecedentedly afaik) reopened the case once he was out of the country. he's been more than willing to speak with them via telecomunications but has resisted returning to switzerland as he believe's they'll hand him over to the USA government.

      sorry i don't have links to back this up, tbh i'm sick to death of the whole thing and really nothing can be known for sure now until he does/doesn't get extridited to the USA.

      anywho, what might you just be guilty of? spreading FUD for one....

    3. Re:Guilty? by shaitand · · Score: 1

      They want to prosecute him for rape because he allegedly banged a groupie without a condom. Any sane person would avoid prosecution for that, "guilty" or otherwise. No sane person would consider that a criminal act.

    4. Re:Guilty? by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Even if Assange committed the acts he was accused of, those acts are not illegal in any country besides Sweden. That usually means that you don't get extradited. Unless the United States wants you, then you're not safe anywhere.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    5. Re:Guilty? by Rei · · Score: 1

      iirc he's made numerous attempts to speak with prosecutors both before and after he left switzerland

      Hmm, is that so? ;)

      --
      I am Melllvar, Keeper of the Tapes!
    6. Re:Guilty? by Rei · · Score: 3, Informative

      That, of course, is not the actual charge. The actual charge itself being just one of four.

      The meme "he's being charged for having sex without a condom" is a deliberate attempt to skew the actual situation. I'm not saying he's guilty of anything serious. I'm not saying he's not. But I'm just pointing out, the *actual* charges are that 1) the woman *only consented* to sex with a condom but he only pretended to use one, violating the terms of her consent; 2) that he started having sex with another woman in her sleep; 3) that he held one woman down in a sexual manner against her consent; and 4) that he rubbed his penis against one girl without her consent.

      Again, it's not "stranger in the bushes, knife up to the throat rape" that's being charged, but the charges are not "he had sex without a condom".

      --
      I am Melllvar, Keeper of the Tapes!
    7. Re:Guilty? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hehe, sorry, and i'm actually English ;)

      as i said, i'm sick and tired of this whole story up until the point he actually does or doesn't get extredited to the US.

    8. Re:Guilty? by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1, Informative

      British Judges have already said in their ruling that all four complaints would be unlawful under English law.

      http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/Resources/JCO/Documents/Judgments/assange-judgment.pdf

      Rejecting the Assange legal team’s attempt to portray his alleged actions as “disrespectful” or “disturbing” but not criminal, the judges declared (PDF) that the behavior described in each of the charges was criminal under the laws of England and Wales:

      The first complaint described a situation in which Assange held down the arms of the woman known as AA, preventing her from reaching a condom as he attempted to pry her legs open with his own legs in order to penetrate her vaginally. AA’s subsequent consent to intercourse after he had agreed to put on a condom, they found, did not render Assange’s alleged initial use of force against her lawful.

      With regard to the second complaint, Assange’s lawyers contended that it is not illegal under English law to penetrate a partner without a condom in circumstances in which she has only consented to sex if a condom is used. The court ruled that such deception would be a criminal act in England, given that AA’s complaint alleged that Assange intentionally sabotaged the condom he was using while they were having intercourse.

      In the third complaint, AA alleged that Assange rubbed his erect naked penis against her body while they were sharing a bed under non-sexual circumstances. The judges ruled that AA’s consent to sleep in the same bed as Assange “was not a consent to him removing his clothes from the lower part of his body and deliberately pressing that part and his erect penis against her.”

      Finally, in the case of the fourth complaint, the judges rejected the Assange lawyers’ contention that the behavior described would not constitute rape under English law. Under that law, they found, the behavior alleged constituted rape in two separate ways: First, that Assange is said to have penetrated SW without a condom when she had only consented to intercourse if a condom was present, and second that he penetrated her while she slept. “It is difficult to see,” they said, “how a person could reasonably have believed in consent if the complainant alleges a state of sleep or half sleep,” and “there is nothing in the statement from which it could be inferred that he reasonably expected that she would have consented to sex without a condom.”

      One important note as to that last charge. Assange’s attorneys contended that SW’s consent to the continuation of unprotected intercourse after she awoke to find Assange penetrating her rendered the entire encounter consensual. The judges rejected that argument, declaring that “the fact that she allowed it to continue once she was aware of what was happening cannot go to his state of mind or its reasonableness when he initially penetrated her.” It was his alleged initial penetration, they ruled, that constituted rape, and consent to non-consensual intercourse cannot be obtained retroactively.

      http://studentactivism.net/2011/11/02/british-judges-reject-assanges-rape-defense/

    9. Re:Guilty? by Hatta · · Score: 2

      Yeah, I'm not surprised that they're bending over backwards to find a way to rid themselves of Assange. When has any British citizen been convicted of rape under similar circumstances?

      âoethe fact that she allowed it to continue once she was aware of what was happening cannot go to his state of mind or its reasonableness when he initially penetrated her.â

      I don't even know where to start with this logic. Rape is illegal because of the state of mind of the victim, not the state of mind of the aggressor.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    10. Re:Guilty? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude is clearly a sexual deviant, whether he is a freedom fighter (and I think he is) or not... You can still respect the man while thinking he MAY (leave that up to a fair try, and if it's not fair, jump on it) be a criminal for something else.

    11. Re:Guilty? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      violating the terms of her consent

      Do women come with an EULA now?

    12. Re:Guilty? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Holy shit. I've been pushed down in what could only be called a "sexual" manner by a girl before, despite not wanting it. I've had girls rub their breasts on me without my consent. And yes, I've even had a random drunk girl try to sleep with me when I was trying to sleep in my own room during a house party for an early work-day the next day.

      I didn't realize I'd been technically raped. I was more worried that the guys around me would call me a pussy and the women would think I was gay.

    13. Re:Guilty? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you actually post a link to the actual charges against him? - because last time I checked there weren't any. He's wanted for questioning (in person - he offered to do it all over the phone but they said no).

    14. Re:Guilty? by scot4875 · · Score: 1

      2) 3) and 4) all need to be prepended with: in the morning, while in bed, after the woman had already had sex with him the previous night. 2) 3) and 4) are also all things that many other women enjoy. Also note that neither of the 'victims' actually had any problems with these events until several days later when they met each other and decided that, oh hey, he's kind of a douchebag. Rape!

      Makes the other charges sound significantly less scary. Lies by omission are still lies.

      --Jeremy

      --
      Jesus was a liberal
    15. Re:Guilty? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      2) 3) and 4) all need to be prepended with: in the morning, while in bed, after the woman had already had sex with him the previous night. 2) 3) and 4) are also all things that many other women enjoy.

      So if somebody else enjoys something, it is ok? Awesome logic there.

      Also note that neither of the 'victims' actually had any problems with these events until several days later when they met each other and decided that, oh hey, he's kind of a douchebag. Rape!

      Makes the other charges sound significantly less scary. Lies by omission are still lies.

      --Jeremy

      Which is why he most likely won't be charged. Trust me, most Swedes wants this farse to be over sooner rather than later.

    16. Re:Guilty? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So if somebody else enjoys something, it is ok? Awesome logic there.

      No? But it certainly makes things considerably less clear cut?

  6. Plans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hopefully he has used some of his money to prepay for a rescue, in the event he were to end up in the hands of the US.

  7. Sorry? WHAT sexual deviancy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not wearing a condom? Oooh, most of the USA male population to the right wing are guilty of that!

    Shagging women? Most men: guilty.

    Funnily enough, there's not even a warrant for arrest. Do you have one? No? YOU SEXUAL DEVIANT YOU!!!

    1. Re:Sorry? WHAT sexual deviancy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You think not wearing a condom and fucking a women while she is asleep is normal?

    2. Re:Sorry? WHAT sexual deviancy? by oPless · · Score: 2

      Didn't one of the women later withdraw those allegations and run off to Israel somewhere to hide?

    3. Re:Sorry? WHAT sexual deviancy? by noh8rz3 · · Score: 0

      [citation needed]

    4. Re:Sorry? WHAT sexual deviancy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since normality in this regard is not what is a subject matter, your argument as such is invalid.

      You seem to profess the idea of normality, as if every intercourse is one where one is "not wearing a condom and fucking a woman while she is asleep".

    5. Re:Sorry? WHAT sexual deviancy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      [citation needed]

      (or vagina)

    6. Re:Sorry? WHAT sexual deviancy? by crazyjj · · Score: 5, Informative
      --
      What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
    7. Re:Sorry? WHAT sexual deviancy? by crazyjj · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I should also point out that if you google her name, there are allegations of some serious ties to the CIA via her odd history of involvement with anti-Castro groups in Cuba. Can't imagine why a CIA operative would be in the West Bank with an innocent Christian group trying to get close to Palestinian leaders, though.

      --
      What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
    8. Re:Sorry? WHAT sexual deviancy? by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      OK. You're up to 2 points on your posting license now. Best be careful.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    9. Re:Sorry? WHAT sexual deviancy? by ifiwereasculptor · · Score: 2

      Shagging women? Most men: guilty.

      Wanna bet? $100, and we decide the winner with a /. poll...

    10. Re:Sorry? WHAT sexual deviancy? by noh8rz3 · · Score: 1

      i dont get it.

    11. Re:Sorry? WHAT sexual deviancy? by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      A citation is also the fancy term for a traffic ticket. See also the point system for that part.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    12. Re:Sorry? WHAT sexual deviancy? by noh8rz3 · · Score: 1

      What are you trying to say?

    13. Re:Sorry? WHAT sexual deviancy? by sgt_doom · · Score: 1
      Reminds me of that whack job, Jaclyn Friedman, mysteriously coming out against Assange --- and it turns out her publisher is Perseus Books, then owned by Perseus LLC, the American business address for "American Friends of Bilderberg, Inc." whose directors are listed as David Rockefeller, Henry Kissinger, Richard Perle, et al.

      And Jaclyn's background is most odd: on week she claims to be a super-slut (her words, not mine) who urges here sisters to sleep with as many guys as possible, the next month she claims to be a hardcore feminist. (She also claimed to be a rape victim 'cause she once went out drinking with her college wrestling team (she being the only female with them) and awakened after a hard night drinking to find a grappler running his hand down her jean-covered leg --- truly brutal rape indeed!!!)

    14. Re:Sorry? WHAT sexual deviancy? by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      Well, you requested a citation, you have received one. Just not the one you have expected. Isn't it obvious?

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    15. Re:Sorry? WHAT sexual deviancy? by noh8rz3 · · Score: 1

      What does all of this have to do with Asange? -1 off topic.

    16. Re:Sorry? WHAT sexual deviancy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That can't be the same case. That's two years ago. No democracy would lock someone up with no care for two years when they could just use the phone.

    17. Re:Sorry? WHAT sexual deviancy? by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      My point was you were being an asshole with your [citation needed], so you got an asshole snark reply back.

      At least I was kind enough to explain it to you without being patronizing.

      So, for you: -2 asshole

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    18. Re:Sorry? WHAT sexual deviancy? by lennier · · Score: 1

      Well, you requested a citation, you have received one.

      (facepun)

      Darn, highly-referenced academics must be in real trouble when they get behind the wheel.

      --
      You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
    19. Re:Sorry? WHAT sexual deviancy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And Jaclyn's background is most odd: on week she claims to be a super-slut (her words, not mine) who urges here sisters to sleep with as many guys as possible, the next month she claims to be a hardcore feminist.

      What isn't feminist about exploiting men for sex?

  8. Oh good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    And... cue the ignorant douchebags shouting about how this is just a ploy for the US gov't to get its hands on him.

    And... cue the +5 Insightfuls for people who have no idea how the process of extradition under an EU Arrest Warrant works, but are absolutely sure that somehow Sweden will throw away its relations with the EU in order to satisfy the US, when the US could have just as easily requested extradition directly from the UK if they wanted him.

    Because it's only FUD if you disagree with it.

    Time was, Slashdotters had a bit of logic and rational thought to go along with their opinions. Now it's just tin foil hats and "it must be true because I read it on a BLOG! On the INTERNET!" all the way down.

    1. Re:Oh good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes it's a troll...but it's also spot on accurate.

    2. Re:Oh good. by fnj · · Score: 1

      OP is not a troll. Deal with the content, not the language.

    3. Re:Oh good. by IonSwitz · · Score: 1

      True this. The thing is that I am sure he would have received a 3 month Suspended Sentence, and be free to move on whereever he wants to stay after that. Instead he's spent what, 18 months, 2 years in house arrest in a process that's completely collapsed WikiLeaks and the good job that was being done. Now, when he does appear in a court here in in Sweden, the details of his (alledged) behavior with these women will become public record. The punishment, if he's found guilty at all, will be minimal, and all that will remain is the image of a jerk who fled responsibility. If he's found innocent and let go, he will - of course - look even more foolish and paranoid. It's indeed a sad story this.

    4. Re:Oh good. by Translation+Error · · Score: 1

      Logic and rational thought are a bit more than saying 'they'll get in trouble, so they won't do that!' Someone who really wants to look at the issue should consider what the US might offer Sweden and whether it'd be worth whatever penalty they'd face from the EU after the fact if they handed Assange over to the US. I have a feeling the US can offer a hell of a lot under the table and that Sweden's punishment wouldn't exactly be on the order of expulsion from the EU under a cloud of shame. As for why the US wouldn't just get him from the UK, maybe the powers that be there are reluctant to get into another US extradition controversy on top of the McKinnon case.

      So, yeah, while people shouldn't immediately start screaming about plots by the big bad government, it's no better to rant about conspiracy theories and tinfoil hats and say that a government would never do something because it's against the rules.

      --
      When someone says, "Any fool can see ..." they're usually exactly right.
    5. Re:Oh good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mod parent up, this is the rational view point. At least let Sweden's legal system play out before jumping on this. If they hand him over to the US then go for it.

    6. Re:Oh good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What time was this? I've been reading slashdot since the first few months of its existence, and Linux still isn't going to take over the desktop market in 5 years.

    7. Re:Oh good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Troll, without any doubt.

    8. Re:Oh good. by vanaeken · · Score: 0

      "Time was, Slashdotters had a bit of logic and rational thought to go along with their opinions."

      Where did you get that idea?

    9. Re:Oh good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah i've been watchin.. he embarassed the goverments of the world. the 'good' guys too. I guess he thought that would be enough to keep him safe. Or he just wasnt thinking.

      They're gonna make him go away.

      I predect he'll end up dead in a jail cell in the usa. Suicide it will be ruled.

    10. Re:Oh good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Someone who really wants to look at the issue should consider what the US might offer Sweden and whether it'd be worth whatever penalty they'd face from the EU after the fact if they handed Assange over to the US.

      Okay, I'll throw this right back at you then: what could the US *possibly* offer Sweden that would make up for it being heavily fined, subjected to trade sanctions, and possibly even ejected from the EU? Are we gonna make them the 51st state? I bet the Swedish people and government would just be lining up for their new bennies provided by the good old US of A! We have such a reputation for great government benefits, after all.

      The point is twofold:
      1) This being a plot masterminded by the US government flies in the face of both the competence of the US government, and their ability to offer anything of value to Sweden that would justify trade sanctions, fines, and possible expulsion from the EU.
      2) If you're going to CLAIM that this is what's happening, I'm sorry, but some random link to a blog that's full of FUD about the case (FUD in Assange's favor, to be sure, but FUD all the same), is not sufficient evidence. Nor is "HURR DURR USA R EVILZ OF CRSE!" You need to be able to articulate it in reasonable terms, or your point is just rabid fear-mongering conspiracy theorizing.

  9. Anti Israel commission accused of tax fraud by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just to recap, Assange was accused of rape days by two woman days after they had CONSENTED sex with him (it was consented at the time), they changed it to UNCONSENTED sex after a discussion between them. Which looks very much like one or both are honey traps, most likely the second woman who came along, was so hot to trot she had a fingering session in a movie theater, and yet later claims to have been raped.

    In other news, an EU Commissioner who opposed Israel control of US, now stands accused of tax fraud after his bank transfer records were handed to the Belgian tax authorities.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karel_De_Gucht
    2010: ""Do not underestimate the Jewish lobby on Capitol Hill. That is the best organized lobby, you shouldn't underestimate the grip it has on American politics – no matter whether it's Republicans or Democrats"

    http://www.deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.english/news/120612_De_gucht
    "The taxman was eager to discover the source of certain sums including the money used to pay for Mr De Gucht's holiday home in Italy. "

    EU handed our SWIFT data over to the US, and I wonder how many Commissioners are doing favors in exchange for NOT handing over bank records.

    1. Re:Anti Israel commission accused of tax fraud by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Assange had consensual protected sex with a woman. Then in the morning he unilaterally decided to engage in unprotected sex without her consent. After explaining this to the police because she wanted Assange to submit to an STD exam, the police decided to investigate it as rape.

      In a general sense, If you penetrate a woman against without her consent you raped her.

    2. Re:Anti Israel commission accused of tax fraud by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it was consented at the time

      Yes, and they claim that consent was predicated on the use of a condom. "Let's have sex" does not give him carte blanche to violate any orifice he wishes in any way he wishes for as long as he wishes, or as many times as he wishes.

      If she says, "You need to use a condom," and you force yourself on her without a condom (and that *is* what's been alleged), then YOU ARE COMMITTING RAPE.

      There's a term for what you're doing: Victim blaming. As a fun sociological experiment, why don't you try telling every woman you're about to have sex with, "because you've consented to have sex with me, I will do anything I want, whenever I want, to you, and I consider this consent to be irrevocable and permanent." Just see how the woman responds, I bet you'll really enjoy a life of sexless frustration. Not that that's any different from your current life, by all appearances.

    3. Re:Anti Israel commission accused of tax fraud by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Just to recap, Assange was accused of rape days by two woman days after they had CONSENTED sex with him (it was consented at the time), they changed it to UNCONSENTED sex after a discussion between them. Which looks very much like one or both are honey traps

      It's easy to stand on the sidelines and say that. I actually once held that view on the case. Now I'm not so sure. What I'm going to write is kind of personal and long, but I think it should be said. Bear with me.

      Early this spring I moved to a nordic country, not to unlike Sweden in many respects. There's a very relaxed sexual culture here which in many ways is good, some ways not so much. I had only been here a week and a half when I was downtown; I'd gone dancing (there's a world-famous party scene here) and so was in a typical skimpy dancing outfit (partly to look good, but in no small part so that I didn't overheat). I was walking back to my car when a cute guy came up to me and started flirting with me. I ended up giving him my phone number. I continued back to my car. A couple blocks later, another even cuter guy started flirting with me. So fresh off the previous experience I flirted back (both in English and in his language; everyone here is fluently bilingual), and he walked aside me as I headed toward my car. And the flirting got heavier, and there was kissing, etc. And he started suggesting going back to his place. I didn't want to, and I said no. We kept walking but he kept bringing up the topic. But still... cute guy, flirty mode, etc.

      Anyway, I couldn't find the car, and kept getting more and more convinced that I had walked past it. But he kept trying to get me to keep going forward with him. Several times I'd stop and start to turn around, but he'd (in a physical, but very flirtacious / not aggressive) manner stop me and get me to keep going forward. And I didn't want to start a scene or anything, so I did. But as it became clear that we were only a couple blocks from his place, I had gotten to the point where I was weighing just running. And I stopped, but I hesitated too much (it's incredibly hard to get yourself into the mindset of, "cute person who you were flirting with and who's being really nice to you isn't at any point in time going to accept the word "no", and you really need to just run"). And so he picked me up - but making a game out of it, acting all flirty about doing so - and literally carried me to his place.

      But I didn't fight it. I couldn't get myself to try to make a scene (and especially didn't want to start anything with someone who's strong enought o do that). And below it all, it was still a guy who I was attracted to, and who was being friendly and flirty and for whom I just couldn't get the concept that he wouldn't, *at some point* accept no for an answer. I actually used the excuse "I'm too heavy" as a reason he should put me down, as if that was going to work.

      In his apartment he started taking off my clothes. It may seem strange, but more than anything I protected keeping my shoes on. Because it seemed like if he got my shoes off, and I couldn't then run away outside, that would mean that something happening was inevitable, and so I had to protect that boundary above all. Purely an illusory boundary of course; he was between me and the door, and then later over me, so there was no way I was just going to walk away. And I kept saying no and trying to leave, but whenever he put any (still friendly, still flirty, but resolute) resistance I stopped, not wanting to get in a fight with this guy.

      I protected my body with a hand, something he wasn't very happy about, and kept trying to move it or get me to move it, but that was one thing I made sure didn't happen. But he started trying (and to a limited extent succeeding at) fingering me, and not just the front. And so I made a decision I've often questioned but always come to the conclusion was the right one - I decided to try to finish him in other ways so that he'd stop tr

    4. Re:Anti Israel commission accused of tax fraud by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bullshit - almost sounds to me like you were drugged up a bit and didn't have enough willpower to stop the guy. I'm sure you had multiple opportunities to hit him with something in his apartment over the head even just to disable him, run out, and call the police. You basically let the guy finger you and go from there. If you really thought you were being raped you could have screamed and screamed. You are just basically a confused slut and a whore who let some "cute" guy have his way with you.

    5. Re:Anti Israel commission accused of tax fraud by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the fuck is wrong with you? I'll take a guess - a bitter loser who faps to anime.

    6. Re:Anti Israel commission accused of tax fraud by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Better that than a supporter of womens grand rights and liberties, no?

  10. Does anyone ever talk about Wikileaks any more? by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

    You know, the actual content that it leaks? Nope? Rather chat about a juicy sex story instead, with all our oh-so-clever little bon mots?

    I think this is essentially Mission Accomplished for the TLAs regardless of the outcome of any eventual trial.

    --
    If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    1. Re:Does anyone ever talk about Wikileaks any more? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's because they stopped releasing embarrassing details. Assange lost a huge amount of credibility when he chose not to release the massive banking corruption documents.

      What is surprising about this case, which isn't ever touched by the media, is why did Interpol get involved when they've never touched anything as basic as questioning over a sexual accusation. That's the corruption of the system, to take out, or discredit one individual that hasn't even been arrested, let alone found guilty.

    2. Re:Does anyone ever talk about Wikileaks any more? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nobody talks about Napster anymore either, but that doesn't mean the RIAA can say Mission Accomplished regarding piracy.

      Thanks to Wikileaks, it's now a lot more culturally OK to leak classified info, for better or for worse. Look at how much crap gets leaked these days: Obama and Stuxnet, ACTA debates, Foxconn, etc. etc. Whether or not Assange and WL are still doing what they used to, loads of people are following in their footsteps. Mission Accomplished for him.

    3. Re:Does anyone ever talk about Wikileaks any more? by Hentes · · Score: 1

      Things slowed down quite a bit after they have lost all their funding.

  11. alterior motive obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    He should seek country and international court damages if this is used primarily to facilitate a further extradition to the US considering his actions are properly covered under free speech and also freedom of the press.

    JJ

  12. Extradition to the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Many here are claiming that he fought the extradition to Sweden like hell to avoid ultimately being extradited to the US, as that was the plan all along. Conspiracy theory or not, I'm wondering on what grounds this would be true? What crimes has he been accused of in the US? Is he wanted anywhere but in Sweden for more than questioning?

  13. Due process, nothing more - nothing less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Being a Wikileaks pop-star doesn't make him immune from the law. And if this was all fabricated don't you think someone would have leaked that proof by now?

  14. Why do people defend this person? by SierraQ · · Score: 2

    If he committed a crime against some women he deserves whatever he gets and he needs to stop trying to hide because it makes him out to be a coward unwilling to face the consequences of his actions. No doubt his involvement with wikileaks is fanning the flames here but lets not forget that according to ex-staffers he's tried to change that organization into a dictatorship of sorts and attacked those who questioned his decision or motives. These are signs of desperation and paranoia. Wikileaks will survive just fine without its corrupt dictator. In fact it will probably become better.

    I have no more sympathy for him than I do Joran van der Sloot.

    1. Re:Why do people defend this person? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because it's totally inconceivable that anyone who has made it his mission to reveal the embarrassing and incriminating secrets of the world could possibly have any embarrassing or incriminating secrets of his own.

      It simply must be a conspiracy, Occam's razor be damned.

    2. Re:Why do people defend this person? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no

    3. Re:Why do people defend this person? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He is not charged with any crime at this point, so obviously there is not a great deal of evidence against him.

    4. Re:Why do people defend this person? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "...committed a crime against some other human beings he deserves whatever he gets..."

      FTFY so you didn't come off sounding like you actually believed women had any special rights or privileges, or that crimes against women were worse than crimes against anyone or anything else in the world. Also, stop speculating in heresay to indict him of +1 to all crimes for moral turpitutde, it comes off as paranoid and desperate.

    5. Re:Why do people defend this person? by Dracophile · · Score: 1

      Because some of us at least think that he's entitled to a presumption of innocence.

      --
      Athy, athier, athiest.
  15. Nothing Doing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dt Chapter 22 Verse 28-29 Original Languange
    Assange violated no ancient judean law.
    The people that want him punished are evil people, but they are the majority, and both men and women think as they do.

    The women were prostitutes. They were neither owned by another man nor were they young virgin girls. The ancient judean laws say nothing about them as there is nothing to say.

    1. Re:Nothing Doing by 91degrees · · Score: 2

      They weren't prostitutes because they didn't ask for money. Had this happened in ancient Israel, it depends on your translation on the verse. He could be obliged to pay her father 50 shekels of silver and be obliged to marry her and may never divorce. However, Exodus 22:16-17 is a lot clearer on the matter. "If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife. If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins."

      Clearly this happened in modern Sweden where Biblical law does not apply, but if you're going to post religious trolls at least get your facts right.

  16. Nope, but sexi without a condom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    And, no, she wasn't asleep. Or were you there observing?

    Look, we know that he pulled the kecks of the USA government down and showed everyone the skidmarks. But putting a vendetta on a bloke for pointing out your failures as a country is even worse behaviour than the despicable acts JA told everyone about.

    1. Re:Nope, but sexi without a condom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Haha. Assange burned his bridges over a bunch of boring diplomatic gossip that every foreign gov't of note already had access to. Stop idolizing this fuckup, Wikileaks is dead and his fifteen minutes is up.

      Fortunately for him, swedish prisons are quite humane.

    2. Re:Nope, but sexi without a condom by luncheon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Have you even read any of the cables? 'boring diplomatic gossip' is the only stuff the mainstream media wanted to publish, there's more interesting stuff there like Shapiro's involvement on the 2002 Chavez coup d'etat, smear campaigns to Ullanta Umala and Rafael Correa, and so on and so forth...

    3. Re:Nope, but sexi without a condom by spazdor · · Score: 1

      And, no, she wasn't asleep. Or were you there observing?

      a factual claim about events you didn't witness, followed immediately by a chastisement against making factual claims about events you didn't witness. lol.

      --
      DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
  17. You wanna talk Occam's razor? by Uberbah · · Score: 1

    He's not even charged with a crime yet in the country he's going to be extradited to. So care to fix the rest of your sentence?

    Because it's totally inconceivable that anyone who has made it his mission to reveal the embarrassing and incriminating secrets of the world could possibly..........

  18. Oh, bullshit, AC. by Uberbah · · Score: 2, Informative

    And... cue the ignorant douchebags shouting about how this is just a ploy for the US gov't to get its hands on him.

    Cue the authoritarian douchebags who are hoping that no one will notice that the guy hasn't even been charged yet.

    Because it's only FUD if you disagree with it.

    Do you own a mirror?

    1. Re:Oh, bullshit, AC. by a90Tj2P7 · · Score: 1

      Cue the authoritarian douchebags who are hoping that no one will notice that the guy hasn't even been charged yet.

      Cue the conspiracy theorists who don't realize you don't have to be. You can be extradited for questioning, you don't often charge somebody before you've questioned them.

    2. Re:Oh, bullshit, AC. by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 1

      Alright then, let's extradite you to China for questioning regarding your views about the communist party of China.

    3. Re:Oh, bullshit, AC. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And... cue the ignorant douchebags shouting about how this is just a ploy for the US gov't to get its hands on him.

      Cue the authoritarian douchebags who are hoping that no one will notice that the guy hasn't even been charged yet.

      You realize that you don't charge somebody until the investigation is complete, right?

    4. Re:Oh, bullshit, AC. by a90Tj2P7 · · Score: 1

      Did I do so on Chinese soil? Is there evidence of that? It there an active investigation into it? Is it up to snuff with our extradition treaty with China? Because that would be the process. You don't charge somebody with a crime until you're done investigating it and are ready to put them on trial. It's pretty basic legal procedure, somebody is virtually always going to be wanted for questioning before charges are actually pressed against them. It's sad to see so many people trying be proactive about the law and freedom, yet fail to understand basic fundamental concepts like that. Being charged is not part of an investigation, it's the result of successful investigation.

    5. Re:Oh, bullshit, AC. by Uberbah · · Score: 3, Informative

      You realize they questioned Assange at the time and released him, right? You realize he asked for permission to leave the country and it was granted, right? You realize that it's extremely rare for people to be deported without even being charged, right?

      Right?

    6. Re:Oh, bullshit, AC. by Uberbah · · Score: 2

      Cue the conspiracy theorists who don't realize you don't have to be

      Cue the police state apologist bullshit. How does your authoritarian mind grapple with the dichotomy of:

      1) This person may have committed a serious crime so we want him extradited
      2) But so unimportant that we haven't bothered to charge him

      You must be a fan of the Obama Administration throwing Americans onto assassination lists, because they were horrible people who needed a good killing. But not so horrible that the DOJ bothered to indict them or try them in absentee. Who's still ignoring the fact that Assange was questioned by Swedish authorities at the time, released, and then got permission from Swedish authorities to leave the country.

    7. Re:Oh, bullshit, AC. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cue some more conspiracy bullshit. Yes he was questioned, and then they (we, as I am Swedish) wanted to question him some more. I have absolutely no problem with this. I suspect Assange will not be charged for any crimes and will be released.

    8. Re:Oh, bullshit, AC. by a90Tj2P7 · · Score: 1

      You really don't get how the legal process works at all, do you? You don't charge somebody until the investigation is over. People who are extradited fall into two camps - those who are suspects in an uncharged crime that's still under investigation and are wanted for questioning, and those who have already been charged because the prosecutors feel they already have enough evidence to win the case. Neither is abnormal. The only dichotomy between those two "points" is the false one you've created, based on your lack of education on basic legal procedure.

      As for having already been questioned, no one is ignoring that. Because it isn't abnormal to bring a suspect back in for questioning during an ongoing investigation. Just like the fact that you think people are ignoring that he hasn't charged yet, this isn't something that anyone has missed, it's something you clearly don't seem to realize doesn't matter. You don't know anything that everybody else doesn't. Yes, he asked before he left, but there's zero expectation there that he would absolutely never have to speak to them again.

      Though it is funny to see you complain about indicting or trying people in absentee, yet claim his extradition is an evil conspiracy because he hasn't been indicted in absentee. That's what "being charged" is, being indicted for a crime. These two (and more) specific terms can apply specifically to different levels/types of crimes, but they're the same step in the process. They're what you do when you've completed your investigation and want to take the suspect to trial. Not while the investigation is incomplete.

      As for the rest of your drivel, baseless assumptions and logical fallacies, thanks for making it clear how irrational you are on this subject. "Police state apologist bullshit"? I "must be a fan of... assassination lists"? Dispute what people say, not your crazy assumptions about what ideologies you baselessly attribute to them.

    9. Re:Oh, bullshit, AC. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, because Assange committed any crimes on US soil...

    10. Re:Oh, bullshit, AC. by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 1

      So what you're implying is that if you would visit China and criticize the Chinese government, you ought to get extradited from another country to China "for questioning" if the Chinese authority want you? And you wouldn't consider this harrassment or try to fight against it?

      You do realize that what Assange could be accused for in Sweden does not count as rape or any other crime in all other countries of Europe, the US, and in fact in practically all countries of the world? That the reason he is being wanted for questioning is because he would very likely not be extradited to Sweden if he was wanted for the actual "crime", since sleeping without condome is not generally punishable by UK law?

      There are numerous other oddities in this case. Did you know that Assange was searched by Interpol, even though Interpol would normally never persecute such as case? A fact which made many professionals in the field shake their head in disbelief. Here is what Interpol normally works on: terrorism, organized crime, crimes against humanity, environmental crime, genocide, war crimes, piracy, illicit drug production, drug trafficking, weapons smuggling, human trafficking, money laundering, child pornography, white-collar crime, computer crime, intellectual property crime and corruption. No, "sleeping without condome" is not on the list and neither is "rape". Not to speak of the prosecutor in charge in Sweden and the dubious way the original prosecutor was removed from the case for pointing out that there is no case... Or should perhaps the fact be mentioned that Assange offered many times to answer any questions via online conference under supervision by British police, but Swedish prosecutors consistently declined the offer?

    11. Re:Oh, bullshit, AC. by a90Tj2P7 · · Score: 1

      So what you're implying is that if you would visit China and criticize the Chinese government, you ought to get extradited from another country to China "for questioning" if the Chinese authority want you? And you wouldn't consider this harrassment or try to fight against it?

      Objectively, provided there's enough evidence to make somebody a suspect, yes, they should absolutely, positively be questioned during a legitimate criminal investigation. That's the whole point of whistleblowing, that position or power doesn't mean you shouldn't be held accountable for wrongdoing. Stop trying to make an emotional appeal against reason, your argument here is "you shouldn't face questioning for a crime if you think it's just because they're 'harassing' you". "But what if it was you?" isn't a point, it's a fallacy.

      You do realize that what Assange could be accused for in Sweden does not count as rape or any other crime in all other countries of Europe, the US, and in fact in practically all countries of the world? That the reason he is being wanted for questioning is because he would very likely not be extradited to Sweden if he was wanted for the actual "crime", since sleeping without condome is not generally punishable by UK law?

      Are you actually arguing that you shouldn't be held accountable for a crime committed in one country, if it isn't illegal in others? That's ridiculous. So is the idea that they're only extraditing him because it's for questioning and not yet prosecution, the fact that they're willing to obviously speaks volumes in disagreement. That doesn't make any sense, at all. They know what the case is about, there's zero reason to believe they'd extradite someone for investigation but not prosecution, it would be completely ass-backwards. If they thought the case was serious enough and strong enough to extradite him for questioning, then there's no doubting whatosever that they'd do it for an indictment.

      There are numerous other oddities in this case. Did you know that Assange was...

      Yes, yes, a thousand times, yes. People know this stuff. Some of your reasoning is kind of flawed, though.

      While Interpol's involvement was questionable, your wikipedia cut-and-paste of what they "normally do" is not the limitation of what they can do. The operative part of that summary is that it started with "primarily works on", or in your copy, "normally works on". Do you really think "rape" investigations go international often enough to make that list? They assist in international criminal investigations. This is a criminal investigation into someone who's travelled to another country. It's uncommon and seems beneath them, but it isn't against any rules and it doesn't defy logic. The questionable part is that they're forbidden from getting involved in political crimes, but as much as the conspiracy theorists might argue that's why this criminal investigation exists, it's not directly and explicitly relevant - even if it is the motivation behind pusuing the crime, that doesn't mean the crime didn't occur.

      And it certainly isn't any surprise that a prosecutor who didn't want to prosecute would be replaced with one who did.

      As for the video conferencing, while it may be questionable that the prosecutor didn't want to compromise, it's much more questionable that a suspect would refuse to come back for questioning. It's also difficult, if not outright stupid, to question a suspect when they're outside of your jurisdiction, let alone in another country with different laws, rights and legal processes.

    12. Re:Oh, bullshit, AC. by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 1

      I think we agree much more than it might seem, a few remarks though:

      That's the whole point of whistleblowing, that position or power doesn't mean you shouldn't be held accountable for wrongdoing.

      Historically, whistleblowers have not been held accountable for their wrongdoings in the US. So there is certainly a new wind coming from the US administration this time.

      Stop trying to make an emotional appeal against reason, your argument here is "you shouldn't face questioning for a crime if you think it's just because they're 'harassing' you". "But what if it was you?" isn't a point, it's a fallacy.

      It's not an emotional appeal. Personally, I don't like or dislike Assange. I never have met him. However, I'm worried about the story in general, because it has the letters "CIA" written all over. That's, of course, a hunch that (almost) nobody can back up by evidence, but it's not an emotional judgement either. It's based on knowledge of historical facts; I like reading history books from time to time.

      Back to the topic. Most countries will usually not extradite a person unless the country demanding it can provide at least some evidence that the crime the person has committed would also be a crime in the country they are currently in, not in the country that demands their extradition. And that's a very good thing, if you ask me.

      For example, the US will NOT extradite a US or foreign resident living in the US to China for having done something that would be completely legal in the US and certainly also not for questioning him about that matter. Moreover, the potential maximum sentence in the country the person is extradited to must be within reasonable bounds. For example, Germany will not extradite someone to the US in a murder case unless the US guarantees that the suspect will not be sentenced to death.

      Are you actually arguing that you shouldn't be held accountable for a crime committed in one country, if it isn't illegal in others? That's ridiculous.

      That's not ridiculous, it's the norm. In other words, you can get extradited for acts that would not constitute a crime in the country you are in, but that is the exception. Or do you think UK law says that Iran women should be extradited from the UK for being infidel? Or Russians who spied in the US should be extradited to the US?

      Arguably, one problem of Assange is that he is not of British nationality. Most countries protect their own citizens much stricter against extradition than foreign residents.

      To give you a sense of the proportions in the "Swedish rape" case, recently the FBI tracked down George Wright in Portugal, where he was living for a long time. He was wanted for murder, escape from prison, and hijacking an airplane in the US for a very long time, and he was not extradited. Admittedly, if Sweden had asked, they would probably have said yes. (Like other huge countries, the US doesn't have a particularly good reputation for holding up the rule of law and principles of due process.)

      Yes, yes, a thousand times, yes. People know this stuff. Some of your reasoning is kind of flawed, though.

      Naah, totally impossible. I'm a logician. ;-)

      While Interpol's involvement was questionable

      That's all I was saying. No, I do not believe that Interpol is run by the CIA. But as you have admitted, too, in this alleged rape case there were quite a number of oddities. It is not far-fetched to think that the completely unneccessary Interpol involvement was due to decent amount of political pressure or 'behind the curtain' channels.

      And it certainly isn't any surprise that a prosecutor who didn't want to prosecute would be replaced with one who did.

      At least in the countries in Europe I know closely from living there, that's highly unusual. If a prosecutor thinks a case i

  19. His poor bum by Sav1or · · Score: 0

    He's gonna get all kindsa fucked in the ass over here.

    1. Re:His poor bum by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep he's gonna have a lot of ppl wanting to rape him hard.

  20. Why don't you look at what's actually going on? by Uberbah · · Score: 4, Insightful

    1. Assanage hasn't even been charged with a crime
    2. Which wouldn't be rape, but "sex by surprise" if he were charged
    3. He got permission to leave the country and it was granted
    4. He's offered to answer questions remotely - offers that have been rebuffed

    So, does this look like a normal prosecution or a witch hunt to you?

    1. Re:Why don't you look at what's actually going on? by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      Extraditions for questioning are not unusual, as a quick Google search will quickly determine.

      As far as the crime, I take it you are an expert in Swedish law? There are multiple charges in the extradition request.

    2. Re:Why don't you look at what's actually going on? by Uberbah · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Extraditions for questioning are not unusual

      Of course they are, as a Google search not based on the fallacy of anecdotes will quickly determine. First world nations don't forcibly remove people and place them in another country's custody for shits and giggles.

      As far as the crime, I take it you are an expert in Swedish law?

      I take it you're still ignoring the fact that he was questioned and released, and then granted permission to leave the country? And that charges were already dismissed before being brought by another prosecutor? Or that one of the witnesses has possibly recanted and left the country? Wouldn't want inconvenient parts of the storyline to interfere with the witch hunt....

    3. Re:Why don't you look at what's actually going on? by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      > First world nations don't forcibly remove people and place them in another country's custody for shits and giggles.

      No, they do it in an open manner according to due process, as was done in this case.

      If it really were a witch hunt the UK clearly has the right, in fact duty to deny extradition. They've been up and down on appeals several times, and in a very open manner. The laws are quite clear as to what the situation is.

      However your first point was "1. Assanage hasn't even been charged with a crime" as if this was a bar to extradition. We guess what it isn't people do get extradited for that on a regular basis, as a Google search will reveal.

      And yes I am ignoring the latter two items because I cannot see how they are germane. Just a couple of straw men.

      We've already established that by EU law going to Sweden won't make it possible for the US to extradite him indirectly.

      So now exactly what are you complaining about?

    4. Re:Why don't you look at what's actually going on? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh I wish all you morons would stop to think about the absurdness of a crime called "sex by surprise", then do a 5 minute research session and discover that there exists no such crime in Swedish law.

    5. Re:Why don't you look at what's actually going on? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I take it you're still ignoring the fact that he was questioned and released, and then granted permission to leave the country? And that charges were already dismissed before being brought by another prosecutor? Or that one of the witnesses has possibly recanted and left the country? Wouldn't want inconvenient parts of the storyline to interfere with the witch hunt....

      You should really stop playing fast and loose with the facts.

      1) He was questioned and released - correct.
      2) He was granted permission to leave the country - correct.
      3) The charges were already dismissed before being brought by another prosecutor - incorrect. Charges were never filed as a result of the first interview. Another prosecutor decided that the stories warranted *further investigation,* and so he is wanted for additional questioning, so that a determination of whether formal charges should be filed can be reached. That is what the European Arrest Warrant is about.
      4) Or that one of the witnesses has possibly recanted and left the country - purely speculative, therefore inadmissible. A newspaper reported that she has joined a Christian charitable organization and moved to Israel with them; that does not mean she has left the country, nor does it mean she has recanted, nor does it mean she has stopped pressing charges; It's possible that she has done that, or it's also possible that she was tired of being vilified in the international news (and all over sites like this) for the crime of having been sexually assaulted, and has elected to "disappear" for a time due to the pressure of the negative attention she's received. Since you, me, and Crikey (where you've no doubt sourced this rumor) know for sure, it is inadmissible as anything but speculation.

      Now, relative to the point about "granted permission to leave" - being granted permission to leave does not absolve you of any further legal obligations in the matter. It is simply that: permission to leave. A court has decided that they would like him to come back and answer more questions, and so he's been ordered detained in absentia, and the EAW has been issued to have him taken into custody and turned over to Swedish authorities.

      Your allegation that it's a witch hunt is no more credible than the allegations that it's all a CIA operation designed to get him in Sweden's clutches so they can forward him on to Gitmo. There is none - zero - actual evidence to support this, and for this to happen, Sweden would have to take unprecedented and incredibly unlikely liberties with its treaty obligations as a member of the EU; I know Slashdot is American-centric, but a treaty with the USA most emphatically does not automatically override your treaty obligations to other nations and organizations, just because it exists. If Sweden were to turn him over to the US, they would face sanctions, fines, and possible expulsion from the EU. The ONLY source for this bit of FUD is the "justice4assange" blog, which has made a lot of advertising money, no doubt, by being spam-linked all over Slashdot and the rest of the internet, trying to convince people that poor little Julian couldn't possibly have done anything wrong, and this is all just a CIA frame-up.

      Guess what: it's entirely possible that he's a rapey douchebag, even while doing something as debatably important as building Wikileaks. When you have legions of adoring fans telling you how awesome you are, and you're high on having pulled the tail of the biggest superpower on the block and gotten away with it, it's entirely possible that maybe you take liberties, and believe that "Well she said I had to use a condom, but I'm Julian-fucking-Assange. I don't need to put up with that shit." Given what I've seen of him personally, I wouldn't put it past him to have these beliefs in his own special entitlement to whatever he wants.

      What I want to know is: what are you going to do when your elaborate conspiracy theory falls apart, and he's brought to Sweden, an

  21. problem is no one knows him... by zugedneb · · Score: 0

    Here in sweden, when it is said about him that he "published secret documents", people think he is a thief, a "pirate"... Actually, the swedes do not know, generally, what wikileaks is about, they do not understand why he would be framed...
     

  22. Just say the word and we'll unleash... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...that encrypted "insurance" file you uploaded.

  23. Bingo by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 3, Interesting

    No doubt he was easily setup as they knew he was massively vain and sexually creepy. That's the real tragedy of Wikileaks; they are forever tarred by this fundamentally flawed human being.

    But to believe this has *nothing* to do with US hegemony is truly ignorant - especially in light of Hillary Clinton just happening to 'drop by' Sweden this week. I wouldn't be surprised if Assange touches down at Gitmo instead.

    1. Re:Bingo by Darinbob · · Score: 0

      The whole idea of him being set up is silly. Assange is not that important, it is only his massive ego that makes him think that a state would spend that much money just to silence him from saying stuff that everyone already knows.

    2. Re:Bingo by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      The whole idea of him being set up is silly.

      Is it as silly as the idea that INTERPOL would get involved with his extradition when he has not been charged with a crime? I mean, not charges that haven't been dropped...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:Bingo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1) If Assange had never been born, are you 100% certain that the wikileaks revelations would have taken place?

      2) At this point, Assange's only defense is to keep himself in the public eye to avoid getting thrown in Gitmo.

      He has been sufficiently discredited (rightly or wrongly, probably the latter given the context) to get silenced indefinitely and "legally".

      A tragic road accident would make this discussion irrelevant, though.

    4. Re:Bingo by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      If Assange had never been born Cryptome would have continued it's role.

      Wikileaks was not original. It was just run by an skilled attention whore.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    5. Re:Bingo by RyuuzakiTetsuya · · Score: 1

      Oh jeez.

      Ignorant? You're espousing a massive conspiracy theory here by a Government that can pull strings to have a guy extradited out of a country that will lay down and go with anything we ask for, to another on supposedly phoney charges through a country that has ridiculously high standards for extradition and we get him there.

      Hillary probably doesn't give a shit one way or the other about Julian Assange. He's just not that important.

      --
      Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
    6. Re:Bingo by swalve · · Score: 1

      Exactly right. If a government really wanted Assange gone, he'd be gone. It's way easier to pay a limo driver to shoot the fucker than it is to order a CIA operative to allow Assange to commit a minor sex crime upon her in Sweden. Why not get him on actual rape?

    7. Re:Bingo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Everything you say is true, except the last bit. The US don't want to drag him away and waterboard him - they could have done that any time they liked in the last 10 years. They haven't, because it would not have gained them any sympathy. (1) You're only allowed to do that to brown people. (2) it makes the US look like they consider this guy a threat, which gives him (and by extension, everything published on wikileaks) credibility. Even though every sane person (a minority, apparently) knows that the CIA is behind this bullshit, the bad guys want to maintain a layer of deniability, do everything at arms' length, just enough so that clueless idiots (many of them found in this thread) can continue to walk around with their fingers in their ears singing LA LA LA THE US GOVERNMENT IS GOOD AND PURE AND NICE AND NOT AT ALL A BUNCH OF EVIL SCHEMING COCKBAGS PERSECUTING AN INNOCENT MAN JUST BECAUSE HE HELPED EXPOSE SOME OF THEIR FILTHY MURDERING CORRUPTION LA LA.

      They don't need to interrogate him, they don't need to imprison him, they don't need to torture him. All they need to do is discredit him. That will be enough to cripple wikileaks (to be honest, it already has: How many people hear the word "wikileaks" and immediately associate it with the word "rapist"?)

      Dragging Assange back to Sweden to spend months or years publicly defending himself against trumped-up 'rape' charges before a rigged judge and jury will be quite enough for the US' purposes. Even if he somehow beats the charges, mud sticks and he will forever be tarnished with the label. If he loses, and goes to jail for a long sentence, and maybe after 6 months quietly 'commits suicide' at a time when the media is conveniently too distracted by something else to give him anything more than a footnote, then they certainly won't cry, but that really isn't necessary for their "mission accomplished".

      The thing that really makes me sick is that decades from now, when we're all old and Assange is likely dead, everything will come out. A bunch of document will be unearthed or some ex-CIA somebody will publish their memoirs: "Oh yes, we rigged that whole rape thing. He was totally innocent. We paid a couple of girls to make claims against him, charged him, ruined his life, all because he published video of our uniforms executing children and civilians. Ha ha ha, man those were the good times, I remember there was this amazing backstreet brothel in Stockhom..." And it will be too late to say "I told you so", and too long ago to say "look what your three-letter-agencies and your governments get up to, DO NOT TRUST THESE PEOPLE" and the whole motherfucking cycle of corruption and denial and propaganda and bread and circuses will repeat itself again and again and again.

      Not that I need any affirmation, but shit like this affirms my atheism: If there was a God, the evil motherfuckers in Washington responsible for this and their cronies in Stockholm would have been struck down with a mutant hybrid ebola/rabies/bubonic plague virus two years ago.

    8. Re:Bingo by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      It's way easier to pay a limo driver to shoot the fucker than it is to order a CIA operative to allow Assange to commit a minor sex crime upon her in Sweden.

      [citation needed]

      I do not think you understand that when famous people die under suspicious circumstances that a lot of people expend a lot of energy trying to figure out why.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    9. Re:Bingo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Many people here seem to be focussed on the USA whisking him away as soon as he arrives in Sweden, when I think the smart play is for the USA to lean on the Swedish government and legal system to ensure a conviction. Then his name is mud and the world will care much less what happens to him, so if the USA does want to extradite him (which may suit them much better, timing wise) there will be much less of an outcry and sympathy for Assange.

    10. Re:Bingo by swalve · · Score: 1

      So then the limo driver "shoots himself" and leaves a note apologizing for being a meth addict looking for money. Still a lot more plausible than getting him on what amounts to a building code violation.

    11. Re:Bingo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If everybody already knows, then why are governments so up in arms over the disclosure?

  24. Unfortunate turn of events by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Watch.. he will get sent to the USA and put up somewhere where he will be tortured and put away for life never to be heard from again and he will disappear from the media and the minds of the american public. Hell I wouldn't even put it past the USA to kill him.

  25. i don't get it - who cares who Assange stupped ? by vpness · · Score: 1

    if Assange was being extradited for being a leaker ,then this warrants being /. ed. However, he's not being extradited for his role in wikileaks, just that he's being accused of using what appears to be his overly inflated self-image to foist himself unwanted on a woman. So is the 'it's /. -able' if they're known to the tech community, and do stupid stuff in their personal life ? That'd fill a lot of /. pages.

  26. A thousand thanks, Barefoot Monkey by sgt_doom · · Score: 1
    Thanks for stating the obvious and rebuking the silly comment you so logically answered.

    Of course, since the court ruled on a point never covered during the trial, it made a colossal fabrication and fiction of the entire proceedings --- nothing pertaining to legal process whatsoever.

    To those stooges, or even worse, unthinking idiots, who keep claiming Assange and Wikileaks is some kind of intel agency ploy, those of us who have been monitoring this have never witnessed such a gargantuan amount of resources globally brought to bear to stop Wikileaks and Assange.

    Paypayl, the Swiss firm, Amazon and Tableaux Software in Seattle, and Visa, etc., all bowed down to the oligarchs' pressure and power! Truly, the all-powerful Transnational Capitalist Class is calling the shots, and that leaves only one recourse.

  27. Quotable. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We'll certainly quote your post when he has a mysterious accident. Who could have predicted that ..... blah blah blah - may he rest in peace.

    By all means link to this rather basic conclusion when Assange is dead.

  28. Note to the Brits by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As a people you are less than any "third world" people you colonized and tried to civilize several hundred years ago if you don't display some courage as Tunisians to protest and topple the Government which is allowing these kind of disgusting miscarraige of Justice. Can't you people make a significant numbe of MP's to introduce a no confidence motion againt the PM and his cabinet? I guess not, some civilzed lot!

    The entire western press was ablaze with "securing the release" of a Chinese prisoner, clearly a criminial by the law of the land, but beacuse this man was a conduit to getting docuements on criminal activites of corrupt governaments out he deserves to be hounded and hanged on made up charges.

    CAPTCHA: hemlock. I suggest that the Judges involved in this case should take a sip of it to cleanse their souls.

  29. Reverse sexes by gay358 · · Score: 1

    If a woman lies to a man by saying that they can have sex without condom because she is using pills, is she guilty of rape? Or is there some kind of double standard where woman is allowed to lie about using contraceptives, but man isn't?

    1. Re:Reverse sexes by khipu · · Score: 1

      Since it's the woman who gets pregnant, there are indeed two standards there.

    2. Re:Reverse sexes by gay358 · · Score: 1

      Rape doesn't involve just risk of getting pregnant - and it is the man who has to pay child support. And even man who is sterile can rape, even though the woman cannot get pregnant.

    3. Re:Reverse sexes by khipu · · Score: 1

      I didn't say that either behavior was OK, I just pointed out that the standards by which we have to judge either behavior are legitimately different.

  30. Not to worry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Soon Assange will find out what it is like to be f*cked without a condom in suprise means.
    Assange will become Raped-in-the-ASSange in US prison once Sweden extradites him.

  31. Guilty or Not this isn't about sex by jackthedogg · · Score: 1

    I don't know if Assanage is guilty of a sex crime but if he is he should be prosecuted. If this is all about the US Gov. trying to shut him up ....well you know how it goes. Any one who dismiss Assanage as inconsequential hasn't got a clue or is a troll or worse! Like it or not Assanage has become the face of transparency. It goes with out saying that the US Gov. whats to smack down this guy ....just remember the rhetoric coming out of the US when the leaks started, the suspension of the access to financial support, how after the leak the charges from Sweden surfaced. Look at whats being said about the US's kill list and that leak...through the regular press.

  32. Female EULA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes.

    For centuries. Try to keep up.

    However, to answer your question: "By 'entering and breaking in' this female you are hereby entering into a financial agreement with this female whereby you agree to clothe her, feed her, house her and sustain her and any children she produces".

    A percentage of the female population on this planet consider sexual intercourse to be a commitment to marriage, if not a formal proposal of marriage.

    In many places, still today in the 21st century, the person you just slept with is now considered your Wife.

    A very high percentage of the females I know consider intercourse to be a formal establishment of a public relationship, eg boyfriend / girlfriend. Hell, it is how I was bagged..

    As for those EULA 'terms' .. See also: The Rules
    and, as a general rule, no .. the 'terms' are never quite spelt out, tend to change over time and as circumstances change, and as a general rule can be quite frustrating and annoying; but most importantly: you only ever find out about them once you have been tripped by them.

  33. Re:Nothing DoiNope, you are wrongng by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    She wasn't a virgin. Deut 22 28-29 is about rape not seduction, of a YOUNG GIRL (not a full grown ass woman)

    I was talking about JUDEA NOT Israel. Deuteronomy was the law of Judea, not exodus.

    Read the hebrew douchebag