Full Upgrades To Windows 8 Only From Windows 7?

CWmike writes "Microsoft will support full upgrades to Windows 8 only from the three-year old Windows 7, according to a report Thursday by ZDNet blogger Mary Jo Foley. Citing unnamed sources, Foley said that Microsoft has informed select partners of the upgrade paths to Windows 8. While Microsoft may be revealing upgrade paths to some partners, it has been much more reticent to keep customers informed than three years ago when it rolled out Windows 7. Among the details the company has not disclosed are the on-sale date and the pricing of the two retail editions. By this time in 2009, Microsoft had revealed both: On June 2 that year, it pegged a launch date for Windows 7, and by June 25 had not only posted prices for the operating system but had also kicked off a pre-sale that discounted upgrades by as much as 58%. The increased secrecy from the company was demonstrated best last week, when it unveiled its first-ever tablet, the Surface, but left many questions unanswered, including the price, sales date, and even the hardware's battery life."

Comments

I don't see the problem with this

[pointyhat]

I don't see the problem with this. Firstly, I've not purchased a Windows upgrade for 13 years (NT->2K). Secondly, Windows 7 is supported until 2020 so it's not like you have to upgrade it. Corporate customers need not worry as their license agreements give them the new OS for no additional cost.

Re:I don't see the problem with this

[Teresita]

Problem: You can't roll back to 7 once you start down the dark path of 8. Forever will those metro tiles dominate your destiny.

Re:I don't see the problem with this

[Anonymous Coward]

with a format/reinstall i most certainly can

Re:I don't see the problem with this

[kelemvor4]

I don't see the problem with this. Firstly, I've not purchased a Windows upgrade for 13 years (NT->2K). Secondly, Windows 7 is supported until 2020 so it's not like you have to upgrade it. Corporate customers need not worry as their license agreements give them the new OS for no additional cost.

Pity you got modded down for making the reasonable decision rather than just blindly arguing because everyone should hate M$. If I were selling software, I'd take this tact too. Not that I'm a Microsoft lover in particular, but I figure if you're going to hate a company you should do it for the right reasons.. which in the case of MS I would describe as them abusing their monopoly to dissuade users and OEMS from using other software.

Re:I don't see the problem with this

[Anonymous Coward]

Given their past history, I'll never be an early adopter of the new Windows version anyway. Especially since they are delving into new territory - something they're not particularly good at IMHO - by the time I get around to it, Windows 7 will more than three years old.

Re:I don't see the problem with this

[Murdoch5]

Your completely right

Re:I don't see the problem with this

[Jerome H]

Where are my mod points when I most need them.

Re:I don't see the problem with this

[symbolset]

Who? I seem to have lost the thread.

Re:I don't see the problem with this

[Barlo_Mung_42]

Wait, you didn't take a backup first? What were you thinking !?!

Re:I don't see the problem with this

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree, reinstall is the same as roll back, and there is no restriction to the number of reinstalls

Re:I don't see the problem with this

[Mabhatter]

Well Apple's Mountain Lion is $19 for starts. Even if you had to buy Lion at $29 at's still less than the traditional Windows upgrade.

I think there will be FEW upgrades this round because Microsoft wants Windows 8 tied to the proper hardware. I think they are making the consumer push first to grab some hardware sales, companies aren't going to upgrade for 6-12 months anyway.

Re:I don't see the problem with this

[xeoron]

You forgot the first step: 1) backup

Re:I don't see the problem with this

[Anonymous Coward]

wow thats great, you only pay 19 bucks for a free service pack for a pre XP era OS!? stupid apple fucks

Re:I don't see the problem with this

[poly_pusher]

Dark path of 8? Metro tiles dominate your destiny? Have you tried 8? I found it very comfortable and following an afternoon of use, more functional than 7 for my daily work.

I think I'm going to wait until Windows 9 or 10 before I start yelling at kids to get off my lawn...

Re:I don't see the problem with this

[rsarceno]

Not just ordinary backup but image backup.

Re:I don't see the problem with this

[Anonymous Coward]

Tack. Tack! You'd take this TACK. Why are you adding sounds to words to make them incorrect???

Re:I don't see the problem with this

[hairyfeet]

Not to mention by not having the $50 HP upgrade or the $100 Family Packs MSFT has pretty much made sure that those that took advantage of those and adopted Win 7 early (and there were a LOT of those, if you'll remember they had to crank out extra runs as the original run of discs sold out quickly) simply won't give Win 8 a second thought. I know that even though I've been playing with Win 8 CP at the shop and can't stand it I'd have probably picked up a copy of HP at $50 simply because there is always the possibility they could fix it, like they did with Vista with SP2, but pay over $100 for a tweeting twitting FB shitting cell phone OS? Not a snowball's chance in hell.

So let me say thanks MSFT, thanks for making it even easier to avoid your new product. Thanks to those family packs I have my whole family on Win 7 now which is solid, stable, easier to manage than any OS I've ever dealt with (Remote assistance with easy connect is just too damned easy for remote fixes or walking them through software installs) and since its supported until 2020 as you pointed out there is simply no reason to bother with Win 8, the Supergigantic smartphone OS.

Re:I don't see the problem with this

[theArtificial]

Well Apple's Mountain Lion is $19 for starts. Even if you had to buy Lion at $29 at's still less than the traditional Windows upgrade.

Sure, those are nice upgrade prices but how much did the user pay for the hardware? And it's not like they can just throw Lion discs into any old machine and have them run. It must be supported Apple hardware.

Windows is supported for much longer compared to OSX releases as far as software support and backwards compatibility are concerned. The general rule for Apple support seems to be the current and last release and you're on your own. As a developer it's nice to have users running current versions of things, however, being on a quickened upgrade treadmill isn't always cheap. An example of OSX backwards compatibility is Adobe Creative Suite.

I think there will be FEW upgrades this round because Microsoft wants Windows 8 tied to the proper hardware. I think they are making the consumer push first to grab some hardware sales, companies aren't going to upgrade for 6-12 months anyway.

I think most people prefer fresh installations when upgrading anyway. It's not like you're unable to take your files with you as most people are familiar with backups and having multiple copies of their files. The Windows 7 release was pretty smooth since most of the driver issues which plagued Vista's launch had been settled by the vendors.

While I like some of the under the hood features of Windows 8 I'm not too keen on the UI among other things. As far as Windows is concerned I'll be sticking with 7 for the foreseeable future.

Re:I don't see the problem with this

[Anonymous Coward]

Trying 8 for free is one thing, trying to find a reason to actually buy it when it comes out is quite another. What can't you already do with something else? Given cost or transition pains, there ought to be some very compelling reason to justify changing.

As for XP users, no path to 8 is needed. An x86 running Linux or OS X with a free VM such as Virtual Box can easily be a home for productivity apps. Old game hardware is probably best left alone, with backups nearby for when malware hits.

Tiles. Oh boy. Think of the disk/RAM savings going back to Windows 3.1 with ICONs that amount to batch files to run DOS apps. It still ran Solitaire!

Re:I don't see the problem with this

[hairyfeet]

Actually i would recommend the same thing i do with my customers which is get them a USB drive and install Paragon Backup Free which makes it beyond simple to make disc images and even comes with a Linux based CD Image that lets you fix a messed up Windows OS even if it is screwed beyond booting. This way you can try any of the Win 8 previews and if you don't like it? simply roll the OS back using Paragon with no nasty files left behind. of course i also recommend they have a second drive or partition to keep their data on that way you don't have a reason to give a damn about the OS, but that is up to you of course.

Frankly after playing around with both DP and CP in the shop I'm just not impressed by Win 8. Oh I'm sure it'll be nice...on a cell phone or a tablet, but since i'm not running it on a cell phone or a tablet i don't get what the point is. if I wanted all the tweeting twitting social crap frankly i can get that with Win 7 gadgets and I've found metro UI to be like a damned boat anchor without a touchscreen, it always seems like I'm fighting to get it to do what i want it to do while it screams "Hey want to do some tweets? How about FB? Windows Live? What kind of asshole are you that you don't want to know every time a relative passes gas?" and simply refuses to just get the hell out of my way.

so in the end I'm gonna have to agree with those that have played with the Win 8 test box at the shop and say "no thanks, I already have a cell phone" and skip it. hell even my oldest who practically has his smartphone glued to his fingers said "I already have a smartphone so what do i need this for?" and I have to agree, its just trying too hard to be this hipster social media tablet/cell OS and on a desktop that really just sucks.

Re:I don't see the problem with this

[epyT-R]

maybe you don't need a desktop for your work and could make do with a tablet..

Re:I don't see the problem with this

[donaldm]

Problem: You can't roll back to 7 once you start down the dark path of 8. Forever will those metro tiles dominate your destiny.

Before doing the upgrade you should image your hard drive providing you have a device you can put the image on so you can roll back if you have a problem. There are plenty of tools available for this.

The problem with a roll-back or should I say an image reinstall is you have effectively wasted your time and you are back at square one. This is why I always say if you are going to upgrade from one major release of an OS (Linux, MS Windows or Unix) you should always do a fresh install, this way you get rid of all the previous rubbish. Of course many will disagree with me but that is what I always reccommend and implement for many companies I consult for.

Being forced to upgrade from one major release is IMHO is a potential fail, but if people feel that is the best way then please call me if you fail and I will charge you friends rates :)

Re:I don't see the problem with this

[donaldm]

Well Apple's Mountain Lion is $19 for starts. Even if you had to buy Lion at $29 at's still less than the traditional Windows upgrade.

Since I don't have a MAC I cannot install Apple's OS however I do have a PC so if I download my favourate version of Linux (I use Fedora) and do a fresh install on the OS only. Torrent for the DVD Fedora 17 took about one hour and I did some web sufing while I waited. After the download I created a bootable USB key (10 minutes), then the fresh OS install, configuration and update took about two hours. Played a game on my PS3 while I was waiting. Total cost $0.

Re:I don't see the problem with this

[Volguus Zildrohar]

More functional how? What work do you do?

For myself, I only found annoyance and steps sideways rather than forward. Full screen Metro apps may appeal to tablet users and those folks who are convinced that your choice of font is the same as 'design', but I don't see much gain in my day-to-day tasks; only a whole lot of retraining my habits for no significant improvement, and perhaps many more chances to sell my personal data to Microsoft servers (damn near everything wanted to use some Microsoft service, I had no offline options at all for mail and calendar).

In other words, what did I miss that you saw in an afternoon?

Re:I don't see the problem with this

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple isn't interested too much in making money on software. They sell overpriced hardware to make up the difference. Though .. regarding mountain lion, its obvious that Apple would want as many people as possible on it. By default, much like iOS you are forced to run only software that apple thinks you should run. And being forced to sell it through their app store, nets them a nice tax on every sale, like iOS. Hell.. Apple should be paying me for this crap.

If desktop Windows forced you to buy software only on the MS approved list and each sale was taxed, they would be riots. As it is, unfortunately they seem to be headed down that road. The tablets will be similar to what Apple is doing, but at-least there is some freedom on the desktop side of things.

Now obviously none of these restrictions are going to stop geeks on slashdot to install what they want, but eventually it will be difficult enough to jailbreak our own devices that the vast majority of consumers will just have to accept Apple & MS taxes.

Re:I don't see the problem with this

[Anonymous Coward]

You think shelling out $200 to put DOS in a more colorful clown suit is superior?

The differences between major releases of OS X is astonishing compared to Windows. Sometimes the point updates of OS X have done more than a whole major upgrade to Windows (because Microsoft couldn't ship all the things they talked about for so long).

Re:I don't see the problem with this

[Anonymous Coward]

You know why it costs $0, right? Because NOBODY FUCKING CARES.

And...

[Anonymous Coward]

So. Vista is six years old (if my memory serves me well) and XP is eleven years old. You should have upgraded already, no?

Re:And...

[guruevi]

No, XP is used in so much environments for just about everything still.
- Scientific tools are still mostly XP-only (or DOS still), Vista/7 is possible sometimes with XP compatibility but it's not guaranteed
- Most corporate programs still run only on XP including IE6
- XP is fine on 10 year old computers without all the bells and whistles, 7 is a lot heavier on the resources and requires a more recent computer to run well even with all the bells and whistles turned off.

Re:And...

[Karmashock]

corporate america is full of old legacy programs that most of the company has forgotten but are essential to the operation of the organization. Somewhere in the sub basement there are a few machines only a few members of the IT department are aware of... they are often the reason it takes "two days to process" certain requests... you could argue they whole thing should be reprogrammed from scratch but you're dealing with proprietary programs that could be very complicated and were built bit by bit in spaghetti code fashion over decades.

It's something of a mess. But the companies work and if everyone does their jobs the system runs.

You see this sort of thing in big international banks. Large retail chain head quarters. Or even medium sized businesses that have been operating a few franchises since the 80s.

Requiring them to upgrade isn't going to work. They're already trying to move these system to VMs. But compatibility for these old programs even in VMs is spotty. It's a serious problem.

Re:And...

[Anonymous Coward]

"XP is fine on 10 year old computers without all the bells and whistles, 7 is a lot heavier on the resources and requires a more recent computer to run well even with all the bells and whistles turned off."

I respectfully disagree. XP SP 3 runs shittier than a stock Windows 7 when the UI dialed down and the background processes tamed. I would not run either without 4 GB of RAM (and by that I mean XP SP3 which recognizes 3.5 and thus is maxed out) and Windows 7 recovers from dumb shit like accidentally browsing a dead network share.

Re:And...

[Opportunist]

The corporate WORLD is full of old legacy programs. But that's only half of the deal. The other one is how corporations work.

First of all, we're talking about a serious budget position. The licensing fee for a corporation wide system upgrade isn't something your average IT department can rubber stamp. This can easily run the six to eight digit range, and that often requires the ok from some C-level goon. Sadly, to my eternal regret, it is rarely the CISO or even the CIO, i.e. the two Cs that would actually know what they would buy.

More often than not, such a "problem" finds its way to the CEOs desk. Where it sits for a while because CEOs don't make decisions. No, I'm not kidding. They do not make decisions. They wait 'til some "meaningful" (read: economic) paper writes something about the item. If you want something approved from your CEO, don't come with facts or university studies, subscribe to the same economy papers he reads and wait for them to push an article that goes in your favor, then ask him "oh, sir, have you read..." and you're in.

This is, sadly, not a joke.

And until that time, you will not see a CEO make any decisions about upgrading Windows.

Then, when they finally get their butt into gear, integration tests come. That alone can take a year in larger enterprises. Another hint, never ever volunteer to be one of the test subjects. Unless you don't have anything important to do anyway, or if your boss understands that due to IT issues your reports are late. You will lose days. Not hours. Days. Because one of the proprietary tools you use every once in a blue moon won't work and you get to figure out by yourself how to make it run. Which is in turn a huge headache for your security department, but I digress.

In other words and in a nutshell, I know quite a few companies that still run on XP as their main system, who have been running integration tests for Vista and 7 for a while now and are just about to roll it out... unless of course their CEO notices that 8 is around the corner and he halts the program because he wants to leapfrog the "obsolete" versions...

Re:And...

[Ryanrule]

There is usually soooo much bs in the systems, because people with connections can get the system set up to favor them. I do consulting on sales/configuration software. Everything goes fine until the sales assholes get on it and find out the super secret discount that gives them a fat bonus that they used to be able to do on the paper system wasnt put in.

Re:And...

[Anonymous Coward]

A touch to hard on the CEO's in the world i think?

I've worked for a lot CEO's who act like you say from day to day but if you have earned their trust this is not how they operate.

They rely more on the smart people around them they trust and have proven themselves. Yes they spout out a lot of news buzz that's probably old news to all of us by the time they "get it" but challenge yourself to become their friends instead of dismissing them based on some perceived ignorance of our professions.

I find the best time to engage them is when everything is failing and they really need our help.

Re:And...

[Karmashock]

I'm not talking about that.

And the CEOs frequently ask what it would cost to upgrade these systems. They say 'wow, those are old, get back to me with an upgrade proposal.'

They're proprietary backbone systems. They're frequently the soul of the company's electronic infrastructure. Old legacy databases processing some critical but arcane transactions that can't be done by any system that hasn't been specifically programmed from the ground up to do it.

Trust me. They want to upgrade. The cost is just a significant percentage of their profit margin for that quarter. And IT has learned that you don't tell management that it has to do something expensive. That just means management needs to find someone smarter then you that can come up with a clever way to eat the cake and have it too.

And that's what we in IT have been doing in many of these companies for years. We find a way to solve the problem so management doesn't have the problem and doesn't have to pay for the full system upgrade.

And for this amongst other things we keep our jobs. We solve the problem.

Would it be better to simply rewrite the whole thing from scratch? Yes. But it would require years of reprogramming it from scratch with internal developers or we'd have to outsource at a huge cost to another group. And then we'd have to sync all our sub offices to the new system.

Our only hope is VMing the whole thing into some sort of abstraction at some point. Then we can dump it on any new system, hide the text based interface with scripts and everyone can get what they need.

MS is letting us down by not maintaining backward compatibility. But the VMs seem to be stepping up.

Re:And...

[Karmashock]

Your software isn't customized to their business. This is just the sort of problem that kills upgrade deals.

The software MUST be dynamic.

Re:And...

[BitZtream]

First of all, we're talking about a serious budget position. The licensing fee for a corporation wide system upgrade isn't something your average IT department can rubber stamp.

Sounds like a fairly shitty IT department/management. When you roll out a large project thats going to cost a fortune 5 years down the road to upgrade, you don't wait 5 years and ask for 500k. You roll it out, including an additional 100k in yearly operating costs/maintenance, and then have 500k sitting in your pool ready to purchase the upgrade at the 5 year mark. This is basic business planning. If you didn't think of that, you aren't qualified to do any planning for a project that costs that much, and thats the first problem in your post.

If you weren't doing it wrong from the start, you wouldn't be waiting on the CEO to make a decision and the rest of your post becomes a non-starter.

Re:And...

[Ryanrule]

Oh it is. But you cannot customize to infinity. These people would have it so they upload a cell phone picture of a few scrawls on a napkin and it creates a complete configured "x" on quote with all proper backend integration everything. They also want to import ALL their old deals, even stuff from 30 years ago that is completely custom to the company, and has decades worth of addons made up at the time and never used again. It goes on and on. And of course, upper management is littered with people who came from sales, so yeah.

Re:And...

[newcastlejon]

I respectfully disagree. XP SP 3 runs shittier than a stock Windows 7 when the UI dialed down and the background processes tamed.

*Emphasis mine*
I'm curious, was XP similarly optimised when you did that comparison?

Re:And...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well I respectfully disagree with you. I'm running Windows 7 64-bit with the UI dialed down on a 16GB RAM quad-core I7 machine with an SSD system drive and a 1.25GB Nvidia GTX 570 graphics card, and all the fluffy background tasks shut down that I could do without. Overall, this machine is screamingly fast for most things, but the UI still has strange fits of lagginess that I don't ever see on my lowly Core 2 Duo, 4GB XP 32-bit machine that has been similarly optimized. Sure, perhaps "something is wrong" with my Windows 7 machine or I don't know what I'm doing? But every Windows 7 machine I've ever used has more latency than a well-configured XP machine with similar hardware or even a generation back (e.g., Core 2 versus i5/i7).

Grandparent is completely correct. Windows 7 is a hog. It's fine given the additional features when used with decent hardware, and 64-bit support is far better than for XP 64-bit, but I still prefer XP and on an older machine I'd always pick XP over Windows 7 if I had a choice. The only reason I run Windows 7 on the machine mentioned above is for the >2GB of RAM for certain specialized programs that need it. Otherwise I wouldn't.

Re:And...

[Anonymous Coward]

Kill Aero. Win7's UI was broken into shape around it. MS is killing Aero in Win8, there's a reason for that. It was an experiment and it failed.

Re:And...

[Belial6]

MS is letting us down by not making the VM the backward compatibility. At this stage of the game, we should be able to run any application all the way back to DOS 1.0 with complete backward compatibility on Windows 7.

Re:And...

[rubycodez]

you are funny. XP has been running fine for me for almost a decade with 768MB of RAM for running websites that require IE, Microsoft Office & H&R Taxblock, try that with your windows 7

Re:And...

[Little Brickout]

Funny, Win7 and Win8 preview are slightly laggy on my desktop. WinXP SP3 feels a lot like XFCE in responsiveness (I do keep a pretty bare install though).

Athlon II x3 @ 3 GHz
AMD 690G
2GB RAM
Radeon 4770 512MB

Re:And...

[Mister Whirly]

I use Windows 7 and also use IE and MS Office just fine. H&R Block's website states their tax software works with XP, Vista, and Windows 7.(And IE version 6.0 or higher.) So what were you ranting about again? you are funny.

Re:And...

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

Well, I have Windows 7 and have no desire to upgrade. Eventually I'll get a new computer and be forced, I suppose, but I don't want to.

Who'd have thought old-school Windows would be the cool thing people don't wanna give up?

Re:And...

[dkf]

XP SP 3 runs shittier than a stock Windows 7

You really didn't need to install all those "toolbars" into Explorer...

Re:And...

[Karmashock]

I agree on the X bit... on the importing old deals into the new system.

You have to do that. It's non-negotiable. And that's the problem. It's a HUGE pain in the ass. And what you're saying is that your company can't offer that feature at a competitive rate. I know that. I've asked around repeatedly.

The only solution is to keep the old system going or reprogram the whole thing from scratch.

It's just what "is."

The only reasonable solution for most of these companies is to VM the old systems so they can maintain them on new hardware. And then to build new UI tie ins so that you can interact with a 20 year old database through an ipad... AND make it look sexy.

I've done that a few times. The whole system is horrifying when you understand how much processing power is being wasted on abstraction. But the cost of the processing power is meaningless compared to the cost reprogramming it.

Again, this is an issue big international banks have given up on. Somewhere in their infrastructure you'll find literally dozens if not thousands of interlinked databases that all use different formats, technologies, scripting languages, OS's, etc. They were all built at different times by different groups for different purposes. And THEN everything was linked together using custom scripts and programs that often only exist in their computers and no where else.

And you could say "oh just rewrite it" but the thing is many of these systems were badly programmed in the first place. They work. But the documentation is often horrific or non-existent. You can talk to the old hands and ask them how it works but they often have no clue. They know how to ADD a feature or change a feature in their systems. But they've been doing that for so many years without a full rebuild that no one actually knows how everything is wired together anymore.

You can pull out one tiny system out of the network that everyone swears is irrelevant it can can completely crash the system and make it totally impossible for it to function until it's replaced. Why? Because everything was designed assuming everything was just "so." And if anything changes nothing works.

Again, I'm not advocating this as a good idea. I'm not the one that designed this or came up with this idea. It just "is." No one really planned it this way. Its something that grows in a company like fungus. And by the time it gets to this stage you can't really do anything to fix it. You just have to survive it.

Re:And...

[Anonymous Coward]

XP running fine for almost a decade? IMPOSSIBLE.

I know it's impossible because Slashdot told me how terrible Windows is. It's nigh-useless, crashes all the time, and constantly gets viruses.

Advocates of Free software wouldn't lie, would they?

Re:And...

[Karmashock]

I agree but I actually see it as a good thing.

I actually think conventional OSs are a bad idea in general.

Imagine performance isn't an issue. Lets just assume you have more then enough processing power that emulation just isn't relevant.

Okay, imagine how much easier it is to manage drivers if the drivers only have to be compatible with a master VM OS. All venders just have to test their hardware with that one OS. No need for mac drivers. No need for Windows drivers. No need for linux drivers. Just port everything to a standardized VM OS.

And then there is security. The VM OS shouldn't connect to the internet. That isn't what it does. It handles hardware abstraction and loads VMs. You can load a VM and then open a web browser within it. But you can't just load a web browser from master system itself. With the exception of a few white listed diagnostic applications it shouldn't run anything.

I really think that's the future of computer operating systems. Ideally, the VM OS should be something tiny that can fit on a on a tiny solid state storage chip on the motherboard itself. Similar to the BIOS. It should load indifferent to what hardware is plugged into it. And it should have enough free storage space to handle any conceivable combination of drivers that the system might need.

Everything else should be in the VMs.

Re:And...

[GuldKalle]

It sounds good. I would really like such a system.
But it all depends one that one thing: "more than enough processing power".
That is not going to happen. Sure, there is Moores law, but programs just keep on using whatever power is available.
Also, I would imagine MS fighting such a movement with tooth and nail, as they would lose one of their lock-ins; Almost all hardware has a windows driver, but if you want to run Linux, you lose a lot of hardware options.

Re:And...

[syockit]

In my experience, XP SP3, with dialed down UI and tamed background process, runs shittier than unoptimized stock Windows 7. I'd never want to touch an XP box again.

Re:And...

[Billly Gates]

"XP is fine on 10 year old computers without all the bells and whistles, 7 is a lot heavier on the resources and requires a more recent computer to run well even with all the bells and whistles turned off."

I respectfully disagree. XP SP 3 runs shittier than a stock Windows 7 when the UI dialed down and the background processes tamed. I would not run either without 4 GB of RAM (and by that I mean XP SP3 which recognizes 3.5 and thus is maxed out) and Windows 7 recovers from dumb shit like accidentally browsing a dead network share.

He said 10 years old. Of course XP runs better but I doubt many of them are still running as PSUs die, fans lose their bearings and get nosy and die out, capacitators blow, and so on.

Windows 7 runs supperior if you have a SATA drive and at least a phenom II hex core or Icore5 or greater with more than 4 gigs or ram. This is because Microsoft crippled the SATA driver on purpose with Vista/7 so it doesn't support command queing. Worse, the paging/swap algorithm in XP/NT is terrible and very aggressive compared to Win7. Worse the XP kernel is made for 1-2 cpu systems and can't scale well after that. Especially this is true on an iCore7 extreme.

Also modern cpu's have more registers and additional instructions for SSE3 mmx, compression, and other branch prediction optimization techniques that you really do not take advantage of unless you use a modern 64 bit compiler. XP 64-bit does not use all of these because it is from 2004 but at least you get more registers.

In essence the grandparent is right and XP rules because it runs lighter and well for dull office tasks on most equipment purchased circa 2002 - 2008. The flipside is that its retarded to put XP on an ultrabook with an SSD with 8 gigs of ram and an iCore7. THe SSD will be dead in a matter of months due to the lack of TRIM and the insane paging of the XP kernel.

Corporations who just finished their upgrade cycle in 2008/2009 should stay with XP. Anything older you need to go to Windows 7 as your hardware is dying and there is little sense putting it on modern hardware unless you are cheap and lazy. ... take it back I just described every bean counter.

Re:And...

[Billly Gates]

Corporations main job is to boast the share price. Nothing else.

Now the financial analyst folks whose job is to do just that by cutting costs see you have $200k sitting in a cost center titled "for future upgrades", and worse when asked this IT's repsonse is "Yep! We need another $100k for something we just *might* need?". Will have one shitting his pants!

Gee, which do you think will get cut first? The one where he can free up $300k and give it to the shareholders or put it in assets to boast the share price? Or lay off some workers so the CEO can reach that target for Goldman Sachs and he can get his bonus?

IT costs go up every year for stuff like this and the beancounters fail to see what return on the investment it brings compared to 10 years ago when the economy was hot and still ran the same software.

Another thing the MBA's look at which I happen to agree with more is that the more money you throw into something the harder it is to throw it away. It is lost money that needs to go to Wall Street. Why invest in something like what the other slashdotter said "Put a cutsey interface on a 20 year old proprietary dos app so it can work on a browser via an IPAD" when it will need to be gutted anyway? Just never uprade.

Re:And...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Eventually I'll get a new computer and be forced, I suppose, but I don't want to."

Don't you know how to install Windows then? Idiot. It's because of people like you that Microsoft can get away with this rubbish.

Re:And...

[hairyfeet]

Turn off Aero Glass as that is the source of the problem friend. I spent about a week hunting down the source of that lag, since with an HD4850 frankly I had more than overkill for Aero but looking deep into the logs it always came down to Aero causing desktop lag. Once i killed Aero for a Vista Black theme frankly it has been insanely fast, and that is with a system that is probably half the speed of yours, an AMD Hexa with 8Gb of RAM, a 5200 RPM OS drive and a 512Mb of RAM GPU and frankly Win 7 screams. hell it even is snappy on my E350 netbook but I again killed Aero.

Re:And...

[Karmashock]

As to processing power, machines already have more power then workstations need. The five or ten percent loss of performance isn't a big deal especially if you consider that you can bring your old OS along with you from one machine to the next without having to dump it unless you want to... and you get to use the latest hardware. Imagine how simple full system back ups would be as well. You just copy the VM to another drive. Drag and drop.

What about viruses? No problem. You can restore to an older version of the VM. Or always restore the state of the "internet VM" to a clean copy on every use. The system can get infected all the time. It won't matter. Every time you reload that VM the viruses are wiped.

Re:And...

[bloodhawk]

IF they are running a 10 year old piece of hardware because of compatibility with ancient crap the chances of this decision to not give them an automatic upgrade path from XP to 7 is going to affect somewhere between Zero and sweet fuck all people. If there compatibility issues are bad enough to still be stuck back their then nothing is changing going forward.

Re:And...

[Belial6]

I would agree. I would go so far as to say that other than a few niche uses, desktop systems are already at the 'performance isn't an issue' level, and mobile devices are only a few years off.

Re:And...

[flimflammer]

The dull flat white interface to replace Aero is pretty terrible for a whole different set of reasons. I'd sooner switch to Windows Classic and just deal with the task bar looking absolutely dreadful.

Re:And...

[epyT-R]

reasons why this sucks:

1. latency - especially with audio/video/3D/cad or anything else that's shoving gigabyte chunks of data around the system per second or needs as close to instant response as possible.
2. cpu overhead.. it's not a fixed 10%.. it can be as much as 80% depending on what system resources are being called and how rapidly.
3. a driver is a driver.. for every piece of hardware and OS, someone will have to write a driver. what happens when, inevitably, that hypervisor OS is patched/revised in a way that breaks drivers? same old problem all over again.
4. relates to 1 and 2. battery/power consumption.. the overhead doesn't come free.

In fact, the whole hypervisor thing is pitched as a solution to the problems that protected memory management enabled OSs have solved 15 years ago. Hypervisors have their uses and their conveniences, but they're too much of a tradeoff for 'workstation' applications. If security is a concern for a workstation, use a hardened OS.

Re:And...

[epyT-R]

if all the user is doing is browsing and text chatting, I'll agree, though it still demands a much beefier machine than what is otherwise required. If the user has a beefy machine for a reason, he'll object to the useless sapping of the extra cpu cycles he bought the hardware for.

Re:And...

[jelizondo]

Spoken like a true novice!. Well done partner!

Have you ever seen a multi-year budget survive, intact, the five-year you period are postulating?

What sort of company you work for? Any company I have worked for, in the last 35 years, will NOT let you bank $100 thou yearly towards some future whatchamacallit... At least you will be reprimended for over-budgeting. At worst, you'll be fired for cooking the books

If the auditors don't get you, then a couple of years into your fantasy, a downturn will occur and, wham!, your budget is cut so that your precious $100 k will be gone and if you did indeed happened to bank away any money, it will be used to cover running expenses.

I just spent a fucking week putting together a Pentium III computer so that a fricking old system could run again. Imagine, get a P-III refurbished with a 20 GB IDE HD, with 256 MB RAM running Win-2K... But the upgrade was only $145 k, no dice in this economy, get it working or else...

Please provide the name of your employer, I do need a job like yours

Re:And...

[Anonymous Coward]

You are wrong about Windows 7 being a lot heavier on resources. If your entire post wasn't a series of generalizations we could discuss it. So, I'll leave you my post of generalizations.

Re:And...

[Hognoxious]

you don't wait 5 years and ask for 500k. You roll it out, including an additional 100k in yearly operating costs/maintenance, and then have 500k sitting in your pool ready to purchase the upgrade at the 5 year mark.

Hang on. Instead of spending 500k you spend 100k five times and still have 500k left?

Re:And...

[Belial6]

What about if he is logging insurance claims? Or auditing safety training for his company? What if he is entering payroll information, or entering a food order at his restaurant? The idea that only the casual user who does a little browsing and text chatting have machines way over powered for their use is a myth. MOST uses of a computer require vastly lower resources than any CPU that is currently offered. High power machines, while fun, are now a niche.

Add on top of that, the emulation layer does not scale with increases in hardware speed. An emulation layer that would have taken 50% of the CPU resources 10 years ago, now takes 1%. If you swapped out peoples hard drive with an SSD at the same time you inserted the VM layer, most people would rave about the speed increase.

Any argument that could be used to argue against the VM would be equally valid against any of the other abstraction layers that are currently in use. If that last % of speed is that important, you shouldn't be running Windows/Linux/OSX at all. You should have every function in every application written to bang the metal of the hardware you are running on. A VM layer is just a driver for that last few bits of the PC that have not yet been virtualized as drivers. Basically the CPU and BIOS.

Re:And...

[epyT-R]

My point was that people who do buy beefy machines don't want their hardware sapped by needless abstractions like 'overvirtualization,' whether it be needless 'managed' runtime bloat or guestOS stuff. Unlike protected memory management for applications, I don't think virtualizing the whole OS on workstations gains anyone much, and works against your point about needed hardware for common tasks.

Re:And...

[unixisc]

I have Vista, but not Windows 7. So I'm out of luck here?

Re:And...

[Anonymous Coward]

And... you, of course, are running your windows 7 with 768mb of RAM like the GP suggested.

No? Then what the fuck are you chortling about?

Re:And...

[drsmithy]

MS is letting us down by not making the VM the backward compatibility. At this stage of the game, we should be able to run any application all the way back to DOS 1.0 with complete backward compatibility on Windows 7.

If you have an application - even all the way back to DOS 1.0 - that doesn't try to interact directly with hardware and was written to the documented APIs, chances _are_ very good it'll run in Windows 7.

Re:And...

[drsmithy]

You've basically described the design of a standard memory-protected, pre-emptively multitasking operating system. Just substitute "kernel" for "VM OS" and "processes" for "VMs".

Re:And...

[Belial6]

If it isn't already running in an emulated environment (Java, .net, etc.) then it interacts with the hardware. This makes your statement so watered down that it becomes pointless.

Re:And...

[drsmithy]

If it isn't already running in an emulated environment (Java, .net, etc.) then it interacts with the hardware. This makes your statement so watered down that it becomes pointless.

Unless it's running in kernel mode, it doesn't interact with the hardware. It interacts with the OS, which interacts with the hardware on its behalf.

Re:And...

[Anonymous Coward]

Save the snarky comments for when you actually read a thread or even the comment. Obviously he was referring to the 768 MB of RAM and how he can run XP on that but would fail in running Win7. He then just stated his usage case which still works perfectly fine for him. It's no surprise that you can run these applications with a newer computer as well.

Re:And...

[Karmashock]

I'm not claiming to have invented anything. I'm merely saying if we do this then we can have OS neutral computers that can run lots of operating systems concurrently.

Want to bring up an old file from 1980? Open it in the 1980 VM... everything just as it was. No need to maintain the hardware.

Re:And...

[Karmashock]

1. You're only sending the information through one extra process. I've run 3d games in VMs before and not had a problem. There is a performance hit but it's not a big deal.

What is important is that the VM have a comprehensive emulation of the environment. Some VM emulators half ass it. That causes problems.

2. As to overhead, this is a question of optimization. If you've done it properly this shouldn't be a huge deal.

3. The hypervisor OS by definition should be emulating specific environmental conditions. That is, you pick a machine and you set out to create an emulation of that specific machine.

If you want to update the hypervisor that's fine. But the updates will apply to NEW emulations and not old ones.

For example when I load up virtual box for VMware workstation it asks me what OS I wish to emulate. Why does it ask that? Because certain environments are more or less compatible with those operating systems.

Updates would add new environments but the old ones should just be configuration files that establish the pentameters.

I do see what you're saying and it would be a problem. however if the VM OS is primarily there to facilitate the loading of as many varied subordinate OSs as possible then why would they drop compatibility?

I just think it would be less of a problem.

4. Again a ten percent bump in power usage assuming the optimization hasn't been a complete farce is reasonable.

As to your argument that everyone should just switch to linux. The programs aren't written for linux. So if we used linux we'd be running a VM in linux anyway. Exactly how does that solve any problem?

The tired of argument of "you should have used linux"... is tedious.

Re:And...

[Karmashock]

Then you're a slave to one OS.

This way the power user such as yourself could have access to dozens of operating systems at once.

The best tools for some things are only made for windows. It's just a fact. If you want to do these things you need to run windows.

The best tools for many other things are only made for linux. There's just nothing comparable on windows or MacOS.

And then there are things MacOS does better. Garage Band or or whatever.

Then you have operating systems that don't normally run on desktops at all such as the android or iOS operating system. All these things and more can run at once on the same system.

I have a few tools that were written in DOS. There is nothing like them anywhere else. Windows XP can emulate DOS well enough that they can be run on XP. But they stopped working in VISTA and Windows 7. I have an XP VM that I keep around specifically to run those and similar tools.

I'm looking into the future and seeing that we might have a day when certain tools only run on Windows 7 or a specific version of the MacOS operating system. If I want those tools I must use that operating system. It isn't practical to keep all those machines around for those purposes. So instead we create a VM.

Re:And...

[Anonymous Coward]

Awesome. So it wont be a problem running all of that x86 code on arm devices. Thanks for letting us know.

Re:And...

[drsmithy]

Awesome. So it wont be a problem running all of that x86 code on arm devices. Thanks for letting us know.

No worries. The huge range of Windows 7 ARM devices means you're spoilt for choice with hardware as well.

Re:And...

[Anonymous Coward]

- Scientific tools are still mostly XP-only (or DOS still), Vista/7 is possible sometimes with XP compatibility but it's not guaranteed

Where I do science, Scientific Tools are mostly Linux-only.

Re:And...

[Mister Whirly]

I have Windows 7 running on two five year old machines at work with 512 MB of RAM. Turn off Aero and all the other GUI bells and whistles and Windows 7 will run (not elegantly, but will run) on 768 MB of RAM or slightly less. Would I want to do it for long? No. But these days 2 GB of RAM can be had for under $50 so if that is the only thing stopping you from running Win 7 bite the bullet and buy the extra memory.

Re:And...

[Opportunist]

Sadly, I do not play golf.

Re:And...

[Opportunist]

Please post the name of your employer, and whether they need a CISO, I'm moving wherever it might take!

The opportunity to have 100k annual reserves surviving a review where it doesn't go up in a puff of smoke and a shareholder bonus isn't something I'd give up lightly. Think of the things I could actually get done with that!

Might see re-emergence of "downgrade" ads

[Anonymous Coward]

After MS shipped Vista, MicroCenter used to advertise desktop systems with Vista preloaded and "XP downgrade rights". Expect similar with Windows 8 and "Win 7 downgrade".

Re:Might see re-emergence of "downgrade" ads

[John Bodin]

Already out there started June 1st. By any system with any version of Windows 7 and you can for less then $20US, I forget if its $19,99 or $14,99, get Win 8 Professional. After you buy the system you go to a website that I cant remember right now and not at work to read the sign we got by the computers we sell.

Re:Might see re-emergence of "downgrade" ads

[SScorpio]

They always have their upgrade program when a new version of Windows is coming out to keep people from holding off a few months to get a new computer since it would be dumb to buy one now when a new version is coming out in two months.

What the OP is talking about is that new computers that came with Vista on them came with the ability to downgrade to XP. We'll see if 8 is as hated as Vista, but forcing Metro down everyone's throat might lead to that. I also don't understand forcing metro into the new version of server. Metro is great for a tablet, but I'm still not sold on it as an interface for a traditional desktop.

Re:Might see re-emergence of "downgrade" ads

[Anonymous Coward]

Whoooosh!!

What part of "downgrade" did you not understand? What you mention are upgrades. Dumbass.

Re:Might see re-emergence of "downgrade" ads

[4phun]

After MS shipped Vista, MicroCenter used to advertise desktop systems with Vista preloaded and "XP downgrade rights". Expect similar with Windows 8 and "Win 7 downgrade".

We have a firm quote that the Microsoft TAX on Windows 8 to have Microsoft safely remove the crapware their partners load on top of each copy of Windows 8 will be an additional $99.

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/microsoft-to-charge-customers-99-to-remove-oem-crapware/20446

Re:Might see re-emergence of "downgrade" ads

[drsmithy]

We have a firm quote that the Microsoft TAX on Windows 8 to have Microsoft safely remove the crapware their partners load on top of each copy of Windows 8 will be an additional $99.

Why are you blaming Microsoft for something OEMs are doing ?

Note that the last time Microsoft tried to pro-actively prevent OEMs from installing software on their PCs, they got smacked with an anti-trust investigation.

Even better

[kurt555gs]

Free upgrade to Ubuntu from any version of windows.

Re:Even better

[Anonymous Coward]

Who gives a fuck? Ubuntu is a train wreck. If you're going to promote Linux, at least promote a good distro.

Re:Even better

[Opportunist]

Sorry for offtopic, but I've been trying for ages and cannot figure it out: How do you get a shell in the latest version of Ubuntu? Somehow I can't seem to find it...

Re:Even better

[rgbrenner]

IIRC in the apps menu, type "terminal" into the search bar

Re:Even better

[swanzilla]

Sorry for offtopic, but I've been trying for ages and cannot figure it out: How do you get a shell in the latest version of Ubuntu? Somehow I can't seem to find it...

Ctrl+Alt+t

Re:Even better

[Abreu]

hit windows key, type "Terminal", hit enter

Re:Even better

[Nerdfest]

Click the icon that looks like a terminal in one of the dock bars, tap Windows T E R M, and select Terminal, Alt-F2 and enter gnome-terminal, or press crtl-alt-T.

Re:Even better

[Toreo asesino]

So I can upgrade from Windows to Ubuntu keeping all my existing apps & settings unmodified? Impressive.

Re:Even better

[westlake]

Free upgrade to Ubuntu from any version of windows.

No free Linux upgrade or port for every significant software package that runs under Windows.

While damn near everything client-side in FOSS is ported to Windows or begins as a native Windows app.

The parent post gets a predictable mod-up here.

But the truth of the thing is that only 1% of desktop users have seen any added value in Linux. I do not expect that to change,

Re:Even better

[LurkerXXX]

To avoid upgrading your desktop to a new OS with crappy tablet UI (Windows 8), you recommend upgrading to a new OS with a crappy tablet UI (Ubuntu)???

Mint Linux, etc, would likely be a more comfortable upgrade for most folks.

Re:Even better

[rubycodez]

the flavor of Ubuntu known as Xubuntu is fine. Even the KDE flavor Kubuntu fixed the initial crap of KDE 4.0/4.1 a couple years ago.

Re:Even better

[Belial6]

That is just a myth. I have done the 1 year old test. It is like the wife test, but with a one year old. I set up my son with his first computer a couple of months after he turned one. I installed Ubuntu, and gave him 20-25 minutes of instruction on how to use it, then let him go to town on the machine. Within the week, he was a functional user on the system using applications that he found interesting, and that I never showed him existed.

Now, I'm not saying my son isn't brilliant. He is my son after all, but if ANY 1 year old (even one who was bitten by a radioactive brain during a freak lab experiment, giving him superhuman intelligence) can handle running the system with no problem, claims that Linux is too hard are the equivalent of claim that you need to be institutionalized for you own safety.

The reason that the Year of the Linux Desktop is perpetually reset is because people are lazy, short sighted, and prone to mob mentality. People use windows primarily because that is what is pre-installed on 90% of the machines. They are not going to install Linux even if it is better (and that is debatable as of Windows 7) because not only are they lazy and it would take effort, but because they are short sighted in that they don't want to put in a little extra effort now to safe a lot of extra effort later.

Finally, put in the mob mentality, and you find that when they have a problem with Linux, the mob (90% of users) will point out how that is only a problem because they used Linux and that this is why Linux is unsuitable. Whereas if they have a problem on Windows, the mob will point out that 'everyone has this problem', so it is excusable because it is a problem with computers in general.

Re:Even better

[tapspace]

I know, these open source guys are always pushing us to use the keyboard. I can only launch the terminal when I have to navigate through hierarchical menus with my mouse. Bring back the mouse!

Re:Even better

[DesScorp]

Who gives a fuck? Ubuntu is a train wreck. If you're going to promote Linux, at least promote a good distro.

Ubuntu is exhibit A that open source/free software groups can't market worth a damn.

Re:Even better

[drinkypoo]

Sorry for offtopic, but I've been trying for ages and cannot figure it out: How do you get a shell in the latest version of Ubuntu? Somehow I can't seem to find it...

Ctrl+Alt+t

Best answer by far. The other answers are mostly wrong. You just hit the windows key (or whatever key you have there) and start typing terminal and click on it when it appears. You don't need to click anything first.

Re:Even better

[drinkypoo]

Nothing wrong with lubuntu either, which is a standard flavor of Ubuntu these days. Indeed, it's even lighter than xubuntu.

Re:Even better

[drinkypoo]

So I can upgrade from Windows to Ubuntu keeping all my existing apps & settings unmodified? Impressive.

Yes, that is very easy. It is much harder to upgrade from Windows to Ubuntu and still be able to use your apps and settings, although Ubuntu DOES have some profile migration now (as of Precise, if not earlier.)

Re:Even better

[Anonymous Coward]

> Alt+F2
> type "xterm" or "gnome-terminal" or what have you...
> Enter

Re:Even better

[Waccoon]

The fact that you have to ask is the problem (even if you were just joking).

Even where Linux is concerned, what's so hard about having a "cheat sheet" available in an obvious location? Over the last 25 years, manuals gave way to pamphlets, which gave way to online documentation, and now interfaces are so supremely well-designed *cough* that even a list of hotkeys requires you to do a web search on online fan clubs.

Re:Even better

[epyT-R]

why can't I just click an icon in the menu instead of shifting my hand from mouse to keyboard and back? maybe gnome should just delete everything on the desktop except one big search box. idiocy.

Re:Even better

[rgbrenner]

you don't have to... but the menu is pretty long.. so unless you want to search through a huge list (the width of your screen), then it's faster and easier to just type it.

If you want a shorter menu, then just uninstall some of the default crap... then you won't have to type.

Re:Even better

[epyT-R]

I guess I'm one of the few who just customizes the menu so it's actually useful.. when done, it's faster than using search for everything.

Re:Even better

[hairyfish]

Who gives a fuck? Ubuntu is a train wreck. If you're going to promote Linux, at least promote a good distro.

There isn't one. Linux on the desktop has always been a failure due to fragmentation. If you're going to promote Linux, talk about servers, not desktops.

Re:Even better

[marcello_dl]

LOL, +5 insightful!

No added value in linux? I have two words for you:
Package manager.

That one aside: FOSS on windows, what a joy.
Like one of my first rails apps, developed on an already aging laptop, which needed 10000 records to be loaded from db. Time to perform that so called migration under linux, a minute. Time under the rails plus mysql windows installer, N/A, after losing 15 minutes watching it "progress" I reset and opted for putting the linux version on USB and booting from it.

Oh and you probably don't value the freedom of controlling your software infrastructure. Enjoying keeping up with whatever ballmer + hardware producers decide it must be your desktop experience.

Re:Even better

[Anonymous Coward]

I Wouldn't call it an upgrade, doesn't support my video or sound card.

Re:Even better

[Anonymous Coward]

Insightful? Holy fuck has slashdot fallen in the past decade. And would Mr Anonymous like to suggest an alternative "good" distro, at the very least, if not elabourate on the train wreck accusation. I use Ubuntu at work (Fedora at home) and I have very few problems with Ubuntu. It's stable, runs everything I need it to, and is easy to keep up to date. Granted, I'm running the last LTS version so I'm not using the new shuttleworth desktop, which I know has its detractors, but since I haven't used it I really can't comment. I am getting used to Gnome 3 shell on fedora, and find myself in the strange situation where I look for gnome 2 features at home and gnome 3 features at work.

At any rate, every time Microsoft does shit like this their bound to lose market share to Apple and linux distros, slowly but surely the company is dying.

doesn't matter...

[steveb3210]

It's not like anyone will want to buy that franken-ui anyways...

Re:doesn't matter...

[Opportunist]

Since when has buying a new Windows version been a matter of "wanting"? Usually you just wanted some piece of program to run sensibly that was designed for $your_windows_version + 1 only.

Re:doesn't matter...

[Anonymous Coward]

well people that got vista ended up wanting to buy xp

Actually at work we have a program that runs on xp bu not vista or win7 I wonder whats going to happen in the future when we can't get any laptops that work with win xp. My personal laptop has many driver issues with win xp when I tried it to boost proformance.

Re:doesn't matter...

[Patch86]

There's a department in my company that does risk underwriting, and because of some vitally important legacy programme, each one of them has two computers- one running the stock corporate Win XP, one stained beige box running Win NT 4.0.

I presume a relevant brain has at some point been bent to the task of somehow porting the programme to XP, and I can only assume that they failed.

MS doesn't see the demise of Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems to me that MS is shooting itself in the foot. If I were in charge of Microsoft, I would be afraid of OS X and iOS. Once Apple starts leveraging its market share in iPhones and iPads to push people towards OS X, Microsoft is going to feel a lot of pain.

MS is no longer the 800 lb gorilla in the room. The integration of iOS and OS X is going to create an OS that has enough applications to really take off.

Re:MS doesn't see the demise of Windows

[game kid]

I agree, except between Windows 8 and the Cisco cloud silliness, Apple will probably follow the trend and push OSX users to iOS instead. More control and all that.

Re:MS doesn't see the demise of Windows

[TheLink]

The upgrade limitation isn't a problem - the ones who haven't upgraded to Windows 7 already, are the ones who are even less likely to want Windows 8.

As long as Microsoft don't shoot both feet and make it impossible to stick with Windows 7, they will still retain most of their marketshare.

I don't like Windows 7 that much, but I actually prefer it (and XP ) to OS X. I think 10-20% or so will really love OS X, but the rest will be fine with Windows XP/7.

If Microsoft sells Windows 8 but allows "downgrade rights" to Windows 7 (and maybe even XP), they'd still be raking in their usual cut.

Re:MS doesn't see the demise of Windows

[Khyber]

"Once Apple starts leveraging its market share in iPhones and iPads to push people towards OS X"

Apple will have to take their own antitrust lawsuit and likely lose just as hard as Microsoft.

Re:MS doesn't see the demise of Windows

[Billly Gates]

The real comptition is the cloud and the web. Clouds, salesforce.com, and Yammer all work on any browser, device, or OS.

We like to bash Bill Gates as he was anti ethical in his business practices but he was a smart man. He saw the internet and all of this as a threat back in the 1990s. OSX is not the problem old legacy apps that are tied to one obsolete platform are. With intranet apps (new ones not based on IE 6) and cloud internet ones take off the business users never need to worry about what OS or computer they run. Everything is on the cloud where they can simply log in and get to work.

Windows is in trouble for newer busiesses who do not have legacy apps. The only reason I run Windows is because I do IT support and it didn't make sense to invest time in something no one else outside the server room or graphics department used etc. HTML 5 when it takes off will be great as 90% of development will go there and only 10% will be for device specific app store integration with that platform. Most of it will be all online in HTML 5 glory when IE 6,7,and 8 finally die out which is already happening now.

Re:MS doesn't see the demise of Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree, except between Windows 8 and the Cisco cloud silliness, Apple will probably follow the trend and push OSX users to iOS instead. More control and all that.

Without OS X, how do you write iOS apps?

Re:MS doesn't see the demise of Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows runs on 95% of computers world wide, they better get to pushing...

Re:MS doesn't see the demise of Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

Control freaks running Apple!? Never!!!

Re:MS doesn't see the demise of Windows

[epyT-R]

remote ASP based solutions will work in certain situations, but not all of them. I'm not sure I'd want my business's tactical processes dependent on an internet connection for basic services.

Re:MS doesn't see the demise of Windows

[hairyfish]

It seems to me that MS is shooting itself in the foot. If I were in charge of Microsoft, I would be afraid of OS X and iOS. Once Apple starts leveraging its market share in iPhones and iPads to push people towards OS X, Microsoft is going to feel a lot of pain.

MS is no longer the 800 lb gorilla in the room. The integration of iOS and OS X is going to create an OS that has enough applications to really take off.

Er Windows 8 is the integration of phone, tablet, laptop, desktop, game console server into one interface, and they own the corporate market. When it comes to leveraging, that carries a lot more weight than bunch of fickle teenagers who won't even know what an Apple is in 5 years

Re:MS doesn't see the demise of Windows

[drsmithy]

Once Apple starts leveraging its market share in iPhones and iPads to push people towards OS X, Microsoft is going to feel a lot of pain.

So long as the minimum buy-in cost remains twice as much, and Apple's attitude to business and enterprise lies somewhere between apathy and contempt, they're probably pretty safe.

Re:MS doesn't see the demise of Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems to me that MS is shooting itself in the foot. If I were in charge of Microsoft, I would be afraid of OS X and iOS. Once Apple starts leveraging its market share in iPhones and iPads to push people towards OS X, Microsoft is going to feel a lot of pain.

MS is no longer the 800 lb gorilla in the room. The integration of iOS and OS X is going to create an OS that has enough applications to really take off.

I do believe that MS is fuly cogniscant if their competition. With UEFI, they will be able to insure that it will be a hassle for an end-user to create a dual boot system, and consequently the users will forgo Linux. Just wait and see...

Increased secrecy

[bool2]

"The increased secrecy from the company was demonstrated best last week, when it unveiled its first-ever tablet, the Surface, but left many questions unanswered, including the price, sales date, and even the hardware's battery life."
.
Taking a leaf out of Apples playbook then. I wonder if Apple patented it?

Re:Increased secrecy

[Relayman]

Ah, no. Apple typically releases that information on the day of the announcement and actually has copies of the device available at the announcement to play with. Shipping is usually soon after announcement. Example: The MacBook Pro with Retina Display.

Based on Microsoft's track record, there's a significant chance that Surface will be canceled before it ships.

Re:Increased secrecy

[Opportunist]

Hang out in the vicinity of IT-reporters, if you're lucky you might snatch a Surface someone "lost" before he gets it.

Re:Increased secrecy

[Patch86]

Taking a leaf out of Apples playbook then. I wonder if Apple patented it?

One can only hope they haven't taken a leaf from anything resembling a Playbook...

Re:Increased secrecy

[Anonymous Coward]

Right, so you missed the point. This was MORE SECRET than Apple. Apple tells you how much it costs. Microsoft keeps that a secret. Apple tells you when it will ship. Microsoft keeps it a secret. See, that's "increased secrecy".

Re:Increased secrecy

[Rosyna]

Sorry, but having a huge marketing event for a vaporware product that doesn't exist isn't "increased security".

What is the problem?

[rgbrenner]

So you have to have the previous version to upgrade... what is the problem? Doesn't everyone do this?

Off hand: Adobe, Ubuntu, Fedora, Debian all require the immediate previous version to upgrade.

Honestly, I didn't even know you could upgrade Windows from a version older than the previous version.

Re:What is the problem?

[Anonymous Coward]

The previous versions of Ubuntu, Fedora, and Debian cost $0. Windows costs somewhat more.

I just won't mention Adobe.

Re:What is the problem?

[grumbel]

Linux versions are free, Windows is not. So buying a Windows7 license just to throw it away five minutes later would be rather ridiculous.

Re:What is the problem?

[Anonymous Coward]

5 minutes.. 3 years.. same thing

Re:What is the problem?

[Nerdfest]

When upgrading someone's machine from Ubuntu 10.10 to 12.04 recently, it came up with an 'upgrade' option, which surprised me a bit. I thought they only supported previous versions and LTS->LTS upgrades, but it appears that at least some other upgrade paths are available.

Re:What is the problem?

[marcello_dl]

> Off hand: Adobe, Ubuntu, Fedora, Debian all require the immediate previous version to upgrade.

Nope, using debootstrap on debian lets you install debian from whatever previous version, and whatever other linux distro. Stuck with only one partition? The system is in a folder you can chroot into, so you reboot from another media and move the current install to a backup folder, the chroot to the root, rerun the update-grub or whatever is needed by your bootloader.

Re:What is the problem?

[Patch86]

If you're still running Windows XP and you want to upgrade to Windows 8, you'd have to buy upgrade packages for both Windows 7 and Windows 8 (or a full copy of Windows 8, and accept that you have to wipe and reinstall from scratch). That's a copy of Windows 7 that you'll only see as you whiz right past it.

If you're running an ancient version of Ubuntu, and you need to daisy chain the upgrades as you plough towards the latest version- at least all those intermediary copies are free.

Re:What is the problem?

[Jerome H]

To be fair when you use debootstrap you install a new system, you don't upgrade an existing system.
For example debootstrap won't magically import all your old configuration files whereas upgrading will at least present you a dialog box and some options.

Re:What is the problem?

[hamsjael]

You cant upgrade Windows. Period. (from bitter experience)

(unless its a pristine install of the older version that has never been touched, but then whats the point :-) )

Re:What is the problem?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong for Adobe, unless I imagined getting a PS CS3 -> PS CS6 upgrade for $199...

Re:What is the problem?

[pegisys]

Are they going to stop selling stand-alone copies with Windows 8? If you are still running XP you are better off just backing up your important stuff and doing a clean install. Anyway who updates Windows? Everyone knows the clean install is the way to go

Re:What is the problem?

[Dr_Barnowl]

I usually follow the same path for Ubuntu also, back up the home folder and reinstall from scratch. I was pleasantly surprised with the upgrade from Oneiric to Precise this time around.

Re:What is the problem?

[Billly Gates]

XP loyalists are the most anal and stubborn when it comes to change and not leaving. No offense to them reading this, but rather stating the facts that if you were the type to upgrade you would have do so long ago.

If it aint broke do not fix it. Or they have so many customizations, apps, files, that moving to a more modern system is too much of a hassle and a pain. They wont upgrade PERIOD. Especially for something as radical as METRO. At least Windows 7 is somewhat familiar to them even if they hate it and need to spend $$$ on 4 flash drives and lots of dvds for backup and spend 2 or more days backing up 1 tb of stuff.

And corporate XP users ... ya. I wont even go there as we all know why they wont go to Win 8.

Re:What is the problem?

[swalve]

If you are still running Windows XP, the odds are that your hardware is too old to comfortably run Win 8.

Re:What is the problem?

[hamsjael]

I must confess that i havent upgraded ubuntu a lot from one relaese to the next. Debian on the other hand, i have dozens of servers with a LOT of applications dating back to sarge, that has all been upgraded to newest stable.

The most troublesome in my experince when upgrading Linux machines (debian or Ubunutu) is when there is a major shift in DE. Like from KDE 3.x to 4.x.

One thing that keeps impressing me is my laptop, i have been using the same installation (kubuntu 10.04) in three diffrent machines, just yank the disk, transfer it to the new machine and boot it up... not ONE reboot :-) just plugNplay (dell d620, d630 and a newish core i7 (also dell, all intels. havent tried intel-> AMD))

Re:What is the problem?

[Anonymous Coward]

Anything sold with Vista installed that was subsequently upgraded to XP is likely to have a good shot at running Win8 comfortably.

Re:What is the problem?

[hairyfish]

I've been using MS since for about 20 years and never upgraded. Clean install is always the most reliable method of any upgrade, and now in the age of Dropbox and Skydrive etc, users are bit more backup savvy so the backup, clean install process isn't such a big deal.

that is greate

[Anonymous Coward]

as always in windows happends little surprises... =)))

----------------
my blog

Calling any msoft exec

[trdtaylor]

Find a way to short-sell Windows 8 licenses. We'll be rich come the IPO day

I want the opposite !

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm much more interested in downgrade from Windows 8 to 7. When I buy a computer with this junk 8 installed can I downgrade easily ?

JAM

Re:I want the opposite !

[couchslug]

Since installing a clean, "free" version of 7 has been effortless for years, and MSFT gets your money of a version of 8 you don't want, it's your call how you wish to "downgrade".

Re:I want the opposite !

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows 8 is not junk. They have improved many things over Windows 7, like the task manager, boot times, windows updates, mounting ISO's, etc. Metro is mostly optional for x86 computer. Only Windows 8 RT is metro only. I run windows 8 everyday on my home machine. It is in desktop mode 99% of the time. On a daily basis, the only things that are metro on my laptop are the lock/login screen, and the network connections. Use a program called ViStart. It gives you most of the functionality of the Windows 7 start menu, helping you to stay in desktop mode for days or weeks at a time.

Windows 7 needs a bunch of changes and 3rd party programs to be optimal. Windows 8 needs much less of them. Windows 7 needs a third party image mounting software, needs third party process managers, needs third party antivirus. You need to either change the windows update nag time, or live with it asking you constantly if you want to reboot the computer. Who likes windows update notifications popping up during presentations? Windows 8 doesn't do that. Windows 8 will give you a several day grace period in which it doesn't nag you to reboot. Just reboot sometime before the grace period is over at your convenience.

I've been using windows 8 since early leaks hit the internet, well before the developer preview. There was no metro yet back then. I've had plenty of time to discover the nice new features of Windows 8 outside of metro. Sure, I run into an occasional problem, but that is because it's still beta. When I wake up my computer from hibernation, I have to put it to sleep and wake it back up to see the screen. I can't get Netflix to run in Firefox on windows 8, I have to use IE or Chrome. I can't seem to get MATLAB programs to compile under windows 8. Guess what? These problems will all go away either with the release, or soon after the release. I expect compilation to work on windows 8 starting with MATLAB 2013a, if they don't put it in 2012b.

This laptop is set up with dual boot. I still have my windows 7 installed. It would be very easy to reboot into windows 7 and not deal with these problems. However, I generally stay in windows 8 anyways. I like windows 8 better. If you like the Ribbon UI, even more bonus points.

Metro!=Windows 8.

Windows 8 - Metro + ViStart == Windows 7 Second Edition, which is double plus good.

Does anybody still "upgrade"?

[timeOday]

Back in the day a computer was $3000 and often a new OS version was actually an improvement over the previous one, so I could see why somebody would do it. But paying $100 (wild guess) to upgrade a $400 computer to an OS that is marginally better, if at all, with the time it would take and ever-present risk of it breaking something, isn't worth it. I wonder how many bother.

Re:Does anybody still "upgrade"?

[couchslug]

"I wonder how many bother."

Only those suckered into it buy unethical PC repair shops and similar.

Re:Does anybody still "upgrade"?

[OzPeter]

I wonder how many bother.

I know you are talking about Windows, but on the Apple side of things I have taken my $1300 iMac from Leopard to Snow Leopard to Lion and expect to take it to Mountain Lion. I would have taken my Dell laptop from XP to Windows 7 (or even a hackintosh) but it only has a core duo processor and not a core 2 duo.
 
I'm not going to get rid of a perfectly good computer when it still does everything that I want it to do.

Re:Does anybody still "upgrade"?

[Little Brickout]

I do, Windows Upgrade licenses are great. Unlike OEM licenses, you can move them to a new computer when your old one becomes obsolete. My WinXP Upgrade saw use on 3 consecutive computers.

I would never use Upgrade media for anything but a fresh install though.

Re:Does anybody still "upgrade"?

[Khyber]

Don't expect to take your hardware much further even if it still does work. Apple will phase out the support the version after (judging by the timeline of your Apple OSes mentioned) and you'll be fucked despite having quite a capable system.

In the meantime, I still have a hyperthreading P4 that handles *ALMOST* everything just fine. I paid $800 for my PC versus your $1300 iMac. I'll still be able to run a few more upgrades of my OS (plus the one I've built myself) and you're stuck like Chuck.

Re:Does anybody still "upgrade"?

[Billly Gates]

There are many people with files and legacy apps. No one really knows of the Windows Transfer Wizard nor do they buy the cables to do this. But that is the main reason.

Not everyone knows enough to be comfortable reinstalling apps from CDs probably lost, moving files, pictures, desktop wallpapers, and those all mission essential desktop shortcuts. People get used to seeing the same thing every day for year after year and it is a psychological blow to see something different as it no longer is his or hers desktoop anymore in a mental sense.

That mental effort is the biggest hurdle more than the financial and for why? To replace something they already have that works??

Re:Does anybody still "upgrade"?

[MrBippers]

With Win 7 upgrade they took the fresh install option away at one point, though I don't know if they've since restored it. Well, it would install fine but the upgrade license wouldn't activate unless you went in to the registry to changed the id to having been an upgrade install.

I get upgrade copies of windows from my University for like $8. I have a CD binder with Win XP (no sp, sp1, sp2, sp3, x64), Vista, Win7 (x32, x64). That includes multiple copies of some where I had friends pick them up.

Re:Does anybody still "upgrade"?

[timeOday]

As I recall OSX paid upgrades have usually been more frequent but much cheaper than Windows.

Apparently this was still the case as recently as Win 7 vs. Lion.

For myself, I have not upgraded from Snow Leopard to Lion on my work computer even though it wouldn't cost me anything, basically for the other aforementioned reasons - I don't see how it would earn back the time it cost to do the upgrade and learn the new system, and I'm not sure it's an "upgrade" from my perspective. (I'm pretty sure I don't want fullscreen apps on my 30" monitor).

Re:Does anybody still "upgrade"?

[Raenex]

In the meantime, I still have a hyperthreading P4 that handles *ALMOST* everything just fine.

Good lord, man, spend a couple of hundred bucks and buy yourself a modern computer. Penny wise, pound foolish.

Re:Does anybody still "upgrade"?

[BLT2112]

I skipped the Vista "upgrade" but did upgrade from XP to 7 because I wanted to be able to have more than 4GB of RAM. That's mostly the only reason I bothered.

Re:Does anybody still "upgrade"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe he doesn't need it because what he has does everything he needs?

Why waste money to upgrade if what you have performs exactly as required?

Re:Does anybody still "upgrade"?

[Raenex]

Why waste money to upgrade if what you have performs exactly as required?

Because it doesn't perform exactly as required. Try reading what I quoted. It "*ALMOST*" does.

Re:Does anybody still "upgrade"?

[Anonymous Coward]

I paid $800 for my PC versus your $1300 iMac. I'll still be able to run a few more upgrades of my OS (plus the one I've built myself) and you're stuck like Chuck.

Or you could be entirely wrong about the life cycle of his iMac. Or he could switch to Linux or numerous Microsoft operating systems. So in the same boat as you, or a bit better. And for only a few dollars, he didn't have to put up with whatever shitty, ghetto OS you have been using, instead being able to use Mac OSX.

Looks like he wins by virtue of not being a cheap cocksucker like yourself.

Re:Does anybody still "upgrade"?

[Khyber]

"he didn't have to put up with whatever shitty, ghetto OS you have been using,"

The Menuet kernel is far superior. Which is why it's used in my production systems, and not Linux, or OSX, or Windows, or BSD.

Why upgrade?

[Anonymous Coward]

With the relatively low cost of PCs and the relatively high price of the Windows OS upgrade, why WOULD you spend so much to get what exactly?

Thats right. Nothing you can actually use or have a use for.

Get off my lawn..

[SuperCharlie]

Is anyone else tired of the never-ending upgrade/version parade? Maybe Im just getting old but dam.. every year upgrade Office, upgrade Windows, upgrade your phone, upgrade your laptop, get a new tablet, get a new tv, get a new car, f*** me running its like Im your personal money spigot and all you need to do is have some 1/2 baked mass produced crap and Im supposed to get in line to shower you with money. Screw you. Im tired of chasing the mess. Now get off my lawn.

Re:Get off my lawn..

[Teresita]

Newer is not better. I run Win98SE on this $35 used Compaq (running on top of DOS 7.10) and I run XP on another one for my Cakewalk music apps. I boot Puppy Linux 4.3.1 from DOS with LINLD. Chat with Mirc 5.9. Listen to tunes with Winamp 2.80. Do my budget and diet on Excel 4.0. Write stuff on Wordstar 5.5 (DOS) and make it printer-ready in Wordperfect 8 and/or Open Office. I'm happy as a clam, but I ain't making Microsoft any richer.

Re:Get off my lawn..

[Anonymous Coward]

Having recently paid to upgrade my wife... Amen brother.

Re:Get off my lawn..

[couchslug]

"Is anyone else tired of the never-ending upgrade/version parade?"

No.

I benefit greatly from early adopters buying "new stuff". I benefit even more from not being one of them.

"Im tired of chasing the mess."

I never chased it, and so am not tired.

"Now get off my lawn."

I paid off my lawns because I never chased the mess. Everyone ELSE, however, should race after it with gusto.

Re:Get off my lawn..

[vlueboy]

Wow, a nuanced old-version supporter... cool. I wonder how many of us are left here on slashdot. I am not a true supporter anymore: at some point it my systems just stopped sticking around long enough.

Leaving them behind for a relative when moving out, equipment death and robbery have forced me to PURCHASE newer hardware. I'm surprised to see your system survive this long. A truth younger slashdotters need to know is that you cannot easily add new programs to old machines.

Kudos if you have seen your share of errors of missing dotnet, DirectX, Flash 7+, VisualC++ DLLs, Visual basic VBRUNDLL and bad HTML support for hotmail/yahoo. Cheers if you've known the joy of working around some or found alternative browsers and programs. It's sad that the only people using older software are either poor old people or their grandchildren. Middle aged people I know just fork over money for overkill hardware and pirate their way through Windows version upgrades.

That makes it harder on us given they perpetuate adoption of things (remember the first year of docx files?) and proliferation of overkill RAM amounts / bad coders who assume everyone buys a new machine every 3 years.

I smell a marketing plot

[Opportunist]

To get people to buy a new PC with 7 while they still can get it.

Re:I smell a marketing plot

[Billly Gates]

To get people to buy a new PC with 7 while they still can get it.

Actually that is not a bad idea. Not a marketing plan for MS which wants people to go to win 8, but I have seen some slashdotters who still have XP who are scared of Windows 8 and are ready to go to Windows 7 SOOn before the wrath of Win 8 hits.

So what? It is a Moore's law world

[cryfreedomlove]

Hey folks, most of the world does not care about 3 year old operating systems. Innovation marches on at an exponential pace. It is not fair to demand that Microsoft jump off that fast track to support the vanishing legacy. If they do, then you can bet their competitors will not.

Should I also upgrade your wall mounted rotary phone to an IPhone 5? Should I upgrade your Model-T to a Tesla Roadster? Geez!

this seems like a flamebait article

[joeflies]

" By this time in 2009, Microsoft had revealed both: On June 2 that year, it pegged a launch date for Windows 7, and by June 25 had not only posted prices for the operating system but had also kicked off a pre-sale that discounted upgrades by as much as 58%."

Well, that's interesting only if MIcrosoft promised to ship and reneged. If it hasn't been pegged to ship, then I don't see how you can fault them for secrecy for not making announcements. I don't see why the article sites the "by this time in 2009" as a reason either unless there was some requirement to announce exactly three years after the last one.

surface is already a joke

[Anonymous Coward]

google glasses are also dorky vaporware but at least they're innovative. oh god, what a turd surface is.

Who upgrades as opposed to replacing the...

[couchslug]

...machine or doing a clean install?

Why is this news?

Special Offer!

[kpainter]

If you upgrade now, Steve Ballmer will throw in a chair with your purchase!

Re:Special Offer!

[roc97007]

I'd buy that.

Re:Special Offer!

[LocalH]

Ok. Now you learn that the wording was slightly wrong and instead, Steve Ballmer will throw a chair AT your purchase.

Re:Special Offer!

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the internet, not a college term paper. On the internet, we overlook minor typos, misspellings, awkward sentence structure. It just be better for everyone if you just leave the internet and just go read some books.

Re:Special Offer!

[LocalH]

I wasn't nitpicking language. I was making a joke about Ballmer throwing chairs. STFU and go on.

OEM Version!

[ebinrock]

Forget the upgrade version, then. Just buy and install the OEM version, it's only about $30 more and it's a full clean version without the upgrade hassles anyway. Duh!

XP qualifies for upgrade pricing

[michaelmalak]

The article is about how much data gets preserved during the upgrade process not about pricing. Since Windows machines should be re-imaged anyway periodically, that is pretty irrelevant. As for the pricing, the relevant issue, yes, XP evidently qualifies for upgrade pricing:

XP-to-Windows 8 upgrades preserve the least amount in a move: User accounts and files only.

256 MB

[Anonymous Coward]

My laptop, which has 256 MB RAM, runs XP SP3 just fine. Yes, it starts up a bit slow but once it's running it isn't slow at all.

My desktop runs Windows 7 with 4 GB (and, truth be told, it runs absolutely flawless!). I've tried to install Windows 7 on my laptop but that didn't work at all.

7 was the same

[EricX2]

You could only do a 'true upgrade' from Windows Vista to Windows 7, so how is this any different? I don't think you could upgrade from Windows ME to XP either.
Vista is how old now? It came out in 2006. How many years old will OS X 10.8 allow upgrades from? Snow leopard from 2009.

They aren't saying XP or Vista don't meet the requirements for an upgrade edition, just that you can't do an in place upgrade. Of course you can't, the file structure isn't the same.

This is even better, it means once again you will be able to use the upgrade pricing for clean installs. Good deal!

Re:7 was the same

[Anonymous Coward]

you could upgrade windows from version to windows 7. Sure you lose a lot from ME to XP and even more from XP to Vista, it was possible. There is a video out on youtube of someone doing this.

Re:7 was the same

[shutdown -p now]

You could only do it by incrementally installing each following version. GP was talking about going from XP straight to 7 - it wouldn't let you upgrade that way. XP -> Vista -> 7 did work.

's ok

[roc97007]

No plans to upgrade to Windows 8 anyway. But this does remind me that I need to buy a few copies of 7 while it's still available. And then, wait until something good comes out.

Re:'s ok

[cryptizard]

I really don't get what everyone hates about it. I installed it recently and sure the metro interface is kinda weird, but you can pretty much ignore it and stay in the desktop mode and everything is exactly like Windows 7 but with a bunch of tiny improvements like being able to natively mount ISO files.

Re:'s ok

[roc97007]

Not a matter of hate. Not at all. It's a matter of being unnecessary. Why pay a couple bills for maybe a few minor improvements?

Re:'s ok

[jimmyfrank]

So I can develop apps for the tablet/phone, plus, I like change and messing around with new and interesting tech. things. But I'll try any OS, even BeOS.

Re:'s ok

[cryptizard]

Gotcha, that makes sense. But why then would you buy Windows 7 assuming 8 is going to be the same price when it comes out? I would agree that it might not be a big enough improvement to justify paying a significant amount of money, but its at least better than nothing.

Re:'s ok

[roc97007]

...and to someone who likes to be on the bleeding edge, or who is specifically involved in some way with operating systems, that might make sense. But this loses sight of the fact that personal computers are *for* something, or should be. They're not an end in themselves, except to systems or (sometimes) application programmers. Others, me for instance, need them to get work done that is unrelated to OS architecture. In that case, there are generally two overriding considerations: (1) Maturity. Has the environment been out long enough to be reasonable reliable? (2) "good enough". Is the current environment good enough for the task at hand? To the people who are trying to get real work done, the time to upgrade is when either 1 or 2 or both are substantially false.

Re:'s ok

[roc97007]

Gotcha, that makes sense. But why then would you buy Windows 7 assuming 8 is going to be the same price when it comes out? I would agree that it might not be a big enough improvement to justify paying a significant amount of money, but its at least better than nothing.

Because 7 is a known quantity. I have it running on a couple machines, and after the compatibility issues were ironed out (for instance, I had to retire a scanner that had no Windows 7 driver, and the XP driver did not work), it became an environment that I could easily reproduce and add to our workflow. Windows 8 would require starting over in that process, and there is quite literally no reason to do that. There is nothing in Metro that I need.

What about tablets? I own a Windows 7 tablet, it sucks. It's shelfware at this time. Since I'd have to upgrade it to something to make it useful, I might as well install Android, a mature OS from people who understand that a touch interface does not mean having cabalistic gestures intended to ape the operations of a three button mouse. I *might* be able to install Windows 8 (not sure at this time if the hardware is studly enough) but why? Shall I drop a couple bills just on the off chance that Microsoft has suddenly seen the light and created an OS that really works on a touch-only interface?

Given Microsoft's past record with every other release being problematic, I'm inclined to skip 8 completely, and instead look at 9 about the time the first service pack comes out. And if 9 turns out to be shite and I'm forced off 7, 8 will be there for consideration. Or maybe the applications we use will have been ported to Android, OSX, or IOS in that time.

In summery, only bleeding-edge fans and OS-philiacs jump on a new OS the moment it's released. People with non-PC-industry work to do, do not. If they value their jobs. Most especially if their current environment is good enough. (I understand wanting to upgrade from Vista to 7, but 7 really is good enough.)

Incidentally, if Microsoft really wanted early acceptance of Metro, they'd back-port it to 7 and include it in an update, giving people the option of switching from Aero. (which is, incidentally, a real resource hog -- the first thing I do is turn off all the special effects -- parenthetically, who's great idea was it to make the OS a video game??) But apparently they think that Metro will drive Windows 8 sales. I personally don't see it, but fine.

Stupid secrecy versus smart secrecy

[Anonymous Coward]

When Apple is secretive, it's so they don't tip-off competitors about what they are up to.

When Microsoft is secretive (e.g., about the price, battery life, and all sorts of other details about the Surface), it's so they can benefit ... um ... from the ridicule of critics? No, that can't be it.

So they can stifle competition (e.g., HP's recent abandonment of their Windows RT tablet)? Kind of a mixed bag there, given it might discourage others from using Windows RT.

So they can fool gullible pointy-haired bosses into committing to the next version of Windows before determining whether or not it's a bad idea compared to staying with previous versions?

There we go. Now it makes sense.

Non-issue

[insnprsn]

OS upgrades are a bad idea anyways, fresh install and no worries
All of you have backed up your data already... right?

Sandy Bridge and above

[Bryan Bytehead]

Until they fix the issue with systems running Sand Bridge and above slowly losing their minds (apps lock up slowly one by one...), I'm not about to even think about upgrading. Running the CP now, and I'll be back to running Win 7 here shortly. Sad that this bug exists in the Developer's Preview and the Release Preview.

Worst Microsoft beta experience ever.

Re:Sandy Bridge and above

[Mashiki]

Haha. Locking up is the worst beta experience you've ever had? There was a bug I had in a game that I was beta testing which shall remain nameless. On uninstalling, the uninstaller would nuke the entire Program Files tree. Locking up apps is, painful, and recoverable, this required an entire windows reinstall.

Re:So what? It is a Moore's law world

[Osgeld]

Thats right, they dont care about how old the OS is, they want windows and they want what they know how to work. they dont care if its xp vista 7, but they will care that 8 doesnt work like they have known since 1995, and looks like a toy phone.

An opportunity not to be not missed

[Anonymous Coward]

If Linux perveyors had any brains whatsoever they'd seize this (rare) moment by making it simpler to catch all the pissed-off Win users on the rebound. If you're going to be forced to lose your entire setup, at least a free alternative would seem to make the medicine go down easier than having to pay $200 (or whatever) for the privilege, yes? Will they? We know the answer!

Free upgrade to REACTOS as well.

[emil]

I think Microsoft is coming close... very close... to a spontaneous shift towards open-source Win32. The butchery of Windows 8 is certainly moving things right along.

When a major corporate donor emerges, Microsoft's final phase has begun.

Re:So what? It is a Moore's law world

[Anonymous Coward]

Should I also upgrade your wall mounted rotary phone to an IPhone 5? Should I upgrade your Model-T to a Tesla Roadster? Geez!

Hyperbole much? And the answer is no. Not many people even think of it that way. Some of us are concerned that we will have another Vista experience, plus a lot of us are not in the business to "run an OS". We're there to do something, and it involves doing it with our computers. And it's a hard sell to tell teh boss that you need a new computer to run the new OS. That you won't be able to work any faster, but he has to pay a lot of money for new computers. Tehn he asks if all the comopany scanners and printers will stop working like they did with the Vista changeover.

The problem with your analogy,BTW, especially the auto one, is that a person is traveling along in their 2004 Chevy, fat dumb and happy. It gets them where they want to go. But then Chevy brings forth a new car, and they want to get one. But now, the Gas pedal is on the other side, and to use the brakes, you have to use the steering wheel, and two cords hang down from the headliner to steer with.

Oh, but this is 2006. Chevy brought out the Vista Cruiser. And half of the cars don't run correctly on it. You have to get new brake, tires, lights because even though they are perfectly good, they don't work any more on the Vista Cruiser.

The problem with your analogy is that we are way too far along in the age of computing to have to change the way we operate every few years. This is a mature industry now. And before you give me the get off my lawn mantra, There isn't a thing wrong with progress. If Microsoft wants to make a new OS, let them. If they want to put a ribbon on Office and every menu, let 'em. But how much more bloat to an already Reubenesque Operating system and programs can there be to allow using an interface that looks like older systems? Want Metro? By god, you should have it!. Want Windows classic? If there is no reason like Windows classic will destroy the CPU and burn down the neighbor's garage, and cause dogs and cats to live together - let 'em have it!

Then, if the new modes of operating are superior, they will be used by everyone because everyone will want to use them. Choice is a good thing.

I just got rid of my corporate XP laptop

[gelfling]

A 4+ year old Lenovo Thinkpad T61 running XP SP3 and I had to raise an enormous fuss to get it approved since it was on the schedule to be replaced sometime next year.

Corporations aren't upgrading now. They're going to crush every dollar out of their organizations until things start to fall apart and the wheels come off.

Anyway you assume Microsoft will have a cheaper upgrade path than simply starting over. That remains to be seen.

Re:I just got rid of my corporate XP laptop

[Anonymous Coward]

The main problem is windows 7 has higher requirements.

Try to pitch a windows 7 upgrade to upper management when the current XP systems handle the work related tasks quickly (especially since most of processes is handled server side. (so a faster computer will not make the employees get the work done faster)

The changing of the OS will not change the way they do the work.

You get paid a fixed amount

Now try requesting the funding needed to replace every single computer to ones that can handle windows 7, then request even more money for some vlk's for all of the computers, then explain that productivity will have to be really poor for a few days as everything gets set up and the IT workers adapt the work flow, scripts, and various tools to work with windows 7

(on older hardware simply installing windows 7 will result in extremely sluggish performance)

How successful will you be, also how will they view your worth if they need to lay off of lower performing workers and they remember you making the request above.

Remember, a company looking to have like 300+ office computers where the workers will mostly be using a browser, a terminal app to managing ID's, and microsoft office, wont be buying a bunch of super high end workstation computers.

You are going to see large orders of lower end systems, and on slower systems, windows XP is significantly more snappy in pretty much every way.

Also it is never good to transfer the hard drive (with no changes form 1 system to another with different hardware (you get a ton of bloat, unnecessarily loading which slows the bootup and increases memory usage at startup, and cleaning it all up takes longer than starting fresh.

overall when you have a system in place that works well (especially when it has had a lot of time to be adjusted and optimized for efficiency and cost savings)

With a good IT team, the cost of managing the computers should go down over time (with the exceptions of hardware failure increasing over time). With good preventative maintenance happening over the weekend, and efficient ways of re-imaging any system that has a annoying software issue to maximize uptime.

Hopefully you can see where I am coming from in how moving to windows 7 is largely unnecessary.

But why?

[sproketboy]

Why would anyone install Windows 8? It looks awful. This is the new Vista.

Upgrade?

[xs650]

I don't see a lot of Windows 7 users switching to Windows 8, whether they are corporate or private customers. There just isn't any real advantage to 8 on a desktop or laptop. The only way MS is going to get big sales with 8 is by pulling 7 off the market and making 8 mandatory on new computers.

So

[Hognoxious]

Is it the odd ones that are shit and the even ones that are good, or the other way round?

I always get confused with the Star trek movies.

FUN

[Anonymous Coward]

It kinda fun to sit back and watch the train wreck called Wndows 8.

Q.E.D.

[Anonymous Coward]

Headlines ending in question marks. Proof of quality, yet again.

Re:So what? It is a Moore's law world

[Anonymous Coward]

>Hey folks, most of the world does not care about 3 year old operating systems

What.

Every business in the universe ever, more or less cares.

As does everybody's grandma who hits the roof when they move the fruit and veg around in the supermarket.