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Mozilla Downshifting Development of Thunderbird E-Mail Client
An anonymous reader writes "Mozilla will be announcing next week that they will effectively be taking away resources from Thunderbird's development. Mozilla believes it's better for the developers behind the open-source e-mail client to work on other projects, i.e. Firefox OS. They claim they will not be outright stopping Thunderbird." You can also read the letter at pastebin.
Well, lets face it, the last major contribution to email was the "discussions view". Not much has changed in the way of email. The standards have been the same, the security is over an SSL standard, the display is either plain text or HTML, and anti-spam is handled by people like spamhaus.
What more is there for email?
Boy was that leaked fast. I've been using thunderbird for years and never have had much trouble with the mail client. Its pretty stable. Probably won't hurt anything to temporarily take resources off of it. But I hope they don't discontinue it entirely. I feel its way better than Outlook.
Exactly. The browser was perfectly adequate back in the 3.0 days.
In fact, server auto-discovery has made it difficult to configure Tbird on my systems, since I do my own imapd but rely on my ISP's smtp.
"I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
And tell them to go find something else to work on. Firefox is officially trash now, never used thunderbird (but I don't know anyone else that does either so whatever) and I know I for wont be touching firefox os after seeing how bad the browser platform has gotten in the last couple years.
Firefox is the least ram hungry browser available! Chrome and even IE 9 last year kicked Firefox 4 ass in on a silver platter. However, the quality is considerable better for their browser at least.
I installed FF 3.6 on a machine to test something and it was PAINFUL and slow to scroll and ram and disk hungry. I was so used to it for so long I forgot about what made Chrome so special in 2009 - 2011 when people started using it.
I still feel comfortable using it and if Mozilla fixes just a few more things I may just switch back to using it.
http://saveie6.com/
Thunderbird isn't a commercial product. It doesn't have to add arbitrary bullet points every 18 months so they can sell an upgrade. There is eventually a point where it's good enough and adding anything to it would detract. If only more software would do this.
I don't like Thunderbird (hilarious bugs like this one are part of the reason why), but it's what most people at work use on Windows. Mac users primarily use OSX mail.app. I also find the searching majorly FUBAR.
So now that Thunderbird is getting fewer resources, are there any other options? What other clients are people using on windows?
This isn't a bad thing.
Let's start with the biggest reason: now they can't completely ruin it with a redesign. On an "active" project, you eventually run out of stuff to do. No new features to add, no glaring design problems, just boring bugs and maintenance. So you're eventually going to do some big overhaul, some big redesign, if only to justify being an active, major project. See: almost every major desktop environment. Sometimes a big redesign is necessary, but quite often, the change is just for the sake of change. Downshifting development means you don't need to "justify" your project's existence - you're just maintaining it, fixing bugs and minor issues, keeping up with the times. Because let's face it, there's only so many features you can add to an email client.
Second reason: how many people don't even use a dedicated email program anymore? I haven't used one in years (discounting the GMail app on my phone, that doesn't count). I just use a website, either GMail or whatever that online Outlook is. It's faster, and I *always* have a browser open anyways, so why not? Sure, some people will actually need features they don't have, or maybe just want a dedicated email program anyways. That's fine - Thunderbird still exists for those people. But I do not doubt that the potential userbase is shrinking.
Third and final reason: it's open source. If you really think they are no longer doing a good job with it, do it yourself. Fork it. Fix it. If you need help, you'll find people, as long as the work is worth doing.
Thunderbird is the only effective way to restore the functionality on Windows that Microsoft took away by removing Outlook Express, short of being frog marched by Microsoft into its own creepy cloud.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
I'm not so down on the Firefox team, but it seems like Firefox OS will have a tough climb. What's the benefit for a phone maker? Is it more open than Android? Is the HTML5 core going to make development for it easier?
It gets even worse when you have to get at your imap servers over an ssh-forwarded port. Prior to auto-discovery it was pretty easy. Now it's hit-or-miss.
"Just works" (TM) is great when it does, or when you need to do something slightly unusual. Then it just gets in your way. That's the thing that bothers me most about people trying to make Linux "user friendly", because it can only ever be "mostly user friendly" and when they do that they usually also take away the hacker hooks.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
With all the developers moving, they will finally have the resources necessary to change the Firefox UX all over again. Hurrah!
I would like Mozilla to put the "reload" button back where it used to be. What do you think, Mr Anonymous?
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
never used thunderbird (but I don't know anyone else that does either so whatever)
I used Thunderbird for a while. Had to remove it after I got mad enough at it. The rich text editor in it was broken - it refused to use fonts that I wanted, reverting back at every opportunity. Also it loved to eat ends of lines - all of them in one big bite. Start typing your reply, press END, press DEL and now the first line of the quoted text is sitting at the cursor.
Eventually I got tired of that and reverted to the Dark Side. (Or is it Yellow Side now?) At least it works. This is not the year 2000 to endlessly mess with MUAs. I want my email to work, and the best MUA to do it gets the job.
Firefox is officially trash now.
I beg to differ. I always have Firefox *and* Chrome open, but I spend most of my time in Firefox. 1) Firefox can scroll tabs. 2) Firefox will open a pdf or other document just by clicking on it. Chrome insists on downloading it and littering my Downloads directory with things I don't want to keep, besides requiring an extra step to open. 3) I use a Firefox plugin to remove Google's evil link obfuscation, so I can open search results much faster and cut and paste links in a way that makes sense. Not to mention making my eyes hurt less.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
I have used Thunderbird for a long time, and am sad to see developers being removed from it. I don't want my mail in "the cloud," especially when the cloud fails. Web browsers suck for managing email, and the stand-alone client does a far superior job. I can have a back-up of my own messages, and view them off-line any time I want. Stop ceding your privacy, and power, to "the cloud." When it comes back to bite you, you will regret it. "Oh, you want to access your old email? We archived it, and there is a fee to have us reload it for you." Just wait, it will happen.
Want the "Reload" button back where it used to be? Right-click, "Customize", drag the reload button where you want it, click "Done".
You're welcome.
Lightning support would be useful, yes, but NNTP? Why?
Just as IMNSHO email client are superior to Gmail, dedicated news readers are much better than Tbird's news reader.
"I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
Want the "Reload" button back where it used to be? Right-click, "Customize", drag the reload button where you want it, click "Done". You're welcome.
Thankyou, so now I understand. They just moved the the reload button to a stupid place to force everybody to learn their new customization interface. Right, that's it.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
Well, as a Thunderbird user I don't think this is the end of the world, for now. It's not like they really change anything between versions anymore anyway. Email is pretty much a known thing, and the client gets the job done. There's not a whole lot of innovation going on for desktop clients anymore. Plus, fewer people are using them. The danger is that they so understaff it that things stop working and don't get fixed, but I guess we'll see.
Then of course I read they're going to shift the people over to something completely ridiculous like Firefox OS. Mozilla is really all over the map these days, and the product is suffering for it. Firefox OS is just a stupid idea that will never gain any real traction or have any impact, and most of Mozilla's "goals" these days are terrible. Pretty much any time they touch the UI now they make it worse.
At the rate they're going, the time to migrate away will be coming soon.
-- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
Thunderbird is pretty good. There aren't many open-source graphical mail clients out there that work consistently across all platforms. It is a little over-built and quirky, like all of Firefox. But there isn't really an equivalent alternative, especially if you need a newsgroup client.
The main competition at this point is webmail. But for people who need a desktop platform, Thunderbird is an easy go-to option.
The ______ Agenda
I started with Netscape Mail in 1995 and then painlessly moved to Thunderbird when it was released. I've been with it ever since then and am unlikely to change. Most every new release has some small but nice improvement, and no major detriments of the sort that Firefox has suffered. I refuse to use the vaunted cloud or any sort of webmail.
Integrated PGP support. You have to install some weird 3rd party plug-in to get what's been standard in other mail clients for a decade.
Mail is insecure unless you encrypt it. This should be the default.
It gets even worse when you have to get at your imap servers over an ssh-forwarded port. Prior to auto-discovery it was pretty easy. Now it's hit-or-miss.
"Just works" (TM) is great when it does, or when you need to do something slightly unusual. Then it just gets in your way. That's the thing that bothers me most about people trying to make Linux "user friendly", because it can only ever be "mostly user friendly" and when they do that they usually also take away the hacker hooks.
Why I stopped using windows so often, too many magical things that happened automatically and me saying ........ noooooooooooo.... that's not what I wanted, but it was too late.
Firefox OS works fine when there's no connection. Apps are cached for off-line use. When they get another connection, they sync.
You mean it kinda sorta works when there's no connection. For example, if you want to run an application you haven't downloaded yet, or forgot to download, you're out of luck. Just one of an endless list of common examples of why the concept suffers from serious braindamage.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
Under the ECPA of 1986, all mail left on the server after 180 days is fair game. Law enforcement does not need a warrant, just a subpoena, and you'd better cough up the mail. This is because back in 1986, all mail clients stored locally. Leaving your mail on the server all the time was considered rude, frankly. It's your shit, take it and get out of here.
26 years later, people are encouraged to leave their mail on the server for years. Google even goes so far as to tell people they don't ever have to delete. But the law has not changed. It's still the same old ECPA which assumes you don't give two cents for stuff you left on the server for more than 6 months.
Tbird and other mail clients allow you to grab the mail off the server and delete it off the server and store it locally. Once this is done, and the mail is in your possession only, it is no longer covered by the ECPA, but rather the 4'th and 5'th amendments to the US Constitution.
--
BMO
I don't know why this isn't built in, but you can install this extension in Chrome to see PDF and PPT docs in a sensible manner:
Docs PDF/PowerPoint Viewer (by Google)
They could do a ton more for their NNTP support..
Yeah!
How's Firefox's Gopher support?
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In my opinion, Iceape (Seamonkey) looks and feels better than Thunderbird. However, I haven't used Thunderbird in the last year, so it may be superior. I think people are not aware that Seamonkey is just as good.
Did someone move F5 on the keyboard?
Well, they dropped it from the base release about a year ago but it is still there as a plugin.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
What more is there for email?
Oh, I dunno... how about fixing bugs in the Thunderbird UI and elsewhere that have persisted for a timespan of years when they've been reported to GetSatisfaction and Bugzilla? (E.g., 'new' message status is handled very poorly and inconsistently.)
Really this announcement is a public admission of what some of us could already see was true: Mozilla hasn't given a damn about Thunderbird since it was split off from the browser. Really that split was more about taking out the trash than making it thrive on its own. They've thrown in the towel at the messaging match to Microsoft and focused on trying to win the browser bout. I wish they'd just get it over with and fully disown Thunderbird so that others who do give a damn can do something with it.
This is not an urgent scoop that can't wait for the official announcement in two days. The submitter was a dick for leaking it, and timothy was unprofessional for approving it.
Please no. It is the only client that does what I need (including handling seven to ten separate email accounts, seamlessly). It's not perfect, but it's all I got.
It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
There are bugs in the Thunderbird UI and elsewhere that have persisted for a timespan of years when they've been reported to GetSatisfaction and Bugzilla. (E.g., 'new' message status is handled very poorly and inconsistently.) Really this announcement is a public admission of what some of us could already see was true: Mozilla hasn't given a damn about Thunderbird since it was split off from the browser. Really that split was more about taking out the trash than making it thrive on its own. They've thrown in the towel at the messaging match to Microsoft and focused on trying to win the browser bout. I wish they'd just get it over with and fully disown Thunderbird so that others who do give a damn can do something with it.
I wouldn't care myself, and would have reverted to Outlook some years ago, were it not for the existence of "portable" versions of Thunderbird and my current reliance on that portability. I keep it and some other portable apps on external storage to ensure that my messaging history is always consistently with me regardless which or whose computer I'm using. I wish I could do that with Outlook and ditch the bad behaviors of Thunderbird, but the only means to do it with Outlook are all much more kludgy than the portabilized Thunderbird.
I'm having a flashback to when I used Thunderbird. The server configuration was a disaster. Instead of just typing in the configuration, which anyone can do, you had to interrupt the auto-configure at EXACTLY the right time and THEN type in the parameters. If you interrupted it to early, there wasn't any way to get the configuration in place. Thunderbird was the most annoying email program I've ever had the misfortune to use, and that's covering a lot of ground.
What more is there for email?
Something more for Thunderbird is integrated instant messaging. I want unified email and instant messaging in one application so I'll have unified contacts and search. The number of instant messaging services supported by Thunderbird seems like it will be limited at first but that will improve with time and perhaps there will be add-ons available to support more services.
Mozilla jumped the shark when they replaced started taking design decisions away from programmers and putting them in the hands of "user experience designers" who are nothing more than glorified fashion designers. Mozilla's "user experience team" has 25(!) people on it (http://blog.mozilla.org/ux/who-we-are/). How many people does it take to design an interface for a browser? Every new release of Firefox copies more things from Chrome and dumbs down the interface in the process.
I like having a status bar. I do not want the add-ons manager, the preferences manager, or the download manager in a tab because I am using a windowing operating system with a high resolution display. I do not like being forced to wade though about:config because putting some semblance of actual configurability in the options screen is not in vogue. I do not want to have to install 20 add-ons just to get some semblance of a usable browser.
I ditched Firefox for Seamonkey. It is the continuation of the original Mozilla suite, based on the up-to-date Firefox code but without most of the stupidity (unfortunately, they don't have enough developers on the project to undo ALL of the stupidity that comes from upstream). It is also compatible with most Firefox addons (either directly or through porting which is mostly a simple find/replace affair).
Why would you *want* that? One well-crafted malicious PDF coupled with a flawed PDF reader, and you're SOL.
Firstly, I run Linux, not Windows. On Linux the pdf opens in Okular, which uses libpoppler, which has not had a vulnerability in quite some time, unlike the secret binary crap from Adobe. Secondly, there is no difference in security between immediately opening a malicious appllication versus first saving the malicious application to disk then opening it. If you want to slowly compromise your Windows machine with an extra few clicks, be my guest. I will stick with Linux, which doesn't have these issues thanks. And so I can actually use the computer in the way it was meant to be used, not the way the spammers force you to.
Think about this: any new vulnerability in Linux is headline news because it happens so rarely. Usually the fix is within a few hours and new binaries are available for update *at my convenience* a few hours later. With Windows, new vulnerabilities are so commonplace that they are hardly worth mentioning, and good luck getting an update from Microsoft in any timely way.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
Except that bottom (or inline) posters are much more likely to trim the quotes, because they have to look as part of the response. Top posters tend to simply reply, leaving massive amounts of cruft below, which the recipient usually has from previous emails, anyway.
In any case, it should be a choice available to the user, and Lookout, by design, makes it almost impossible to do anything except top post.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
Indeed you are correct. The Mozilla Foundation is a corporation. Specifically, it's a 501(c)(3) public benefit corporation. As a 501(c)(3) public benefit corporation, our "profits" are measured in the amount of public good we create.
We invest resources for the benefit of the public. If we invest resources wisely, we maximize the amount of benefit we deliver to the public. If we invest unwisely, we fail to maximize the amount of benefit delivered to the public. It's our responsibility to always invest wisely so we can maximize the return for the public. Not doing so would be a failure to deliver on our mission -- our promise to the world.
True, but Seamonkey, like the current Eudora, is based upon Thunderbird. No more Thunderbird updates, fewer Seamonkey and Eudora updates.
The ______ Agenda
Lightning is full of bugs. Its been getting better over the years - but its so far behind Outlook and Exchange. Its a pity, because a little work with this, and it could be a very good Outlook/Exchange replacement. Cyrus-IMap is a better mail server than Exchange in every way, and the remnants of Netscape Calendar (now with Oracle) is a better calendar server in every way - its just the clients suck.
These are some wishes from semi-enterprise...
Mail:
1. No auto-configuration. Why should users have to configure mail servers - configure it through DNS srv records. (Dont get me started on the current mail configuration - theres plenty of rants here already.) If the srv records are there, it knows all of the account details, just provide a username and password and thunderbird is configured.
2. The text editor is only a minor improvement from the original netscape (and in some ways that was better.) Have a look at MCE editor for ideas on providing a better editor (and its already in javascript for easy porting)
3. Plugin deployment is difficult.
Calendar:
1. No auto-configuration. Using Caldav means adding a horrible url for each calendar you want.
2. No way of administering these calendars. - Delete, rename etc. I can add new ones, by crafting a new url.... https://caldav.example.com:8080/caldav.php/username/NewCalendar
3. No adding of modifying permissions on calendars.
4. No listing available calendars from the server. I should simply be able to list my own calendars that are on the server - and list ones available from other users, and resources.
5. Invites are still spotty.
6. Theres very little insight to when it goes wrong. no meaningful error messages - stuff just doesnt work.
Sogo is addressing some of these things, however, this should all be included functionality - core to lightning.
It really highlights some of the issues - calendars are hard, and because its a plugin - its in javascript - and thats damn hard too.
But its annoying, because its so close to being a great enterprise product.
In Soviet Russia the insensitive clod is YOU!
Actually, I happen to know personally the guys who design the FireFox interface, and they told me that they moved that button specifically in order to piss you off. I mean you, personally, Slashdot user handle 'Tough Love'. They told me that. If you customize your layout to show the button again, I bet they'll switch it back, just to piss you off some more.
Shut up!
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
A few days ago I asked whether Mozilla could be counted on to remain committed to FirefoxOS, such that it would be a wise choice for anybody to adopt.
Just a few days later, Mozilla pulls resources off of their #2 application to assign them to the New Shiny.
If I had suggested that Mozilla couldn't even be counted on to remain committed to Thunderbird, you guys would have rightly laughed at the suggestion.
So, now I'm left wondering if Mozilla can be counted on to keep developing the desktop version of Firefox.
Somebody has dollar signs in their eyes over app-store percentages and emerging markets populations, don't they?
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
(including firefox, chromium, and others)
please continue with your delusional thinking that a web browser is an operating system and that web apps are a sensible and desirable alternative to native apps.
i really really like having badly-written javascript code chewing up 100% CPU on every core of my 6-core machine doing ajaxy instant updates of data i don't care much about - that's so much better than having a reload button. all this javascript gives me all of the joy you get from the kind of crap code written by newbie PHP developers but running on my own computer instead of the server. brilliant!
i also love the power consumption from a constant load average of 8 or 12 or higher. and the 2 or 3 minutes of staring at the screen while the computer switches from one window to another on my core2 machine at work? sheer genius!
furthermore, i can't tell you how impressed i am that web sites that would have worked nicely with just fairly plain html in a tabbed browser now forces me to work in just the one tab because all that js crap just fucking breaks when you 'open in new tab'.
lovely! and totally "web-scale"!
keep up the great work!
E.g. not i.e.!!
My F5 key hasn't moved in years. Not sure about yours.
24 beers in a case, 24 hours in a day. Coincidence? I think not!
Most of the memory issues are related to add-ons, sometimes due to combinations of add-ons. For example, Adblock Plus and Flashblock have a nasty issue (see https://adblockplus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10222 ), making Firefox consume loads of memory and eventually crashing. Fortunately it can be easily solved by disabling the little tab from Adblock Plus.
You are comparing Firefox 3.6 and 4.0 (both out of even long term support) to last years versions of Chrome and IE and complaining about RAM usage? Sure, 3.6 or 4 is an old memory hungry beast that's slow at javascript and whatnot. You should be comparing the latest version before whining. Not that I particularly like Firefox's RAM hunger, but this is just plain unfair whining about something that's had major improvements the last year.
I was promised a flying car. Where is my flying car?
My F5 key hasn't moved in years. Not sure about yours.
Hardly a valid point then, eh? You either don't use the reload function, or activate it via the GUI since you haven't pressed the key in years...
Indeed you are correct. The Mozilla Foundation is a corporation. Specifically, it's a 501(c)(3) public benefit corporation.
However, the Mozilla Corporation is a private, for-profit corporation. While it is wholly owned by the Mozilla Foundation, as far as I can tell the for-profit corporation doesn't have to say where the money goes. For example, if you were making $1 million a year in salary, I wouldn't know it.
Exactly. The browser was perfectly adequate back in the 3.0 days.
In fact, server auto-discovery has made it difficult to configure Tbird on my systems, since I do my own imapd but rely on my ISP's smtp.
It's definitely a pain in the ass, I tell you, but you can work around server auto-discovery. Set Thunderbird in offline mode, and auto-discovery no longer works. You can then go to advanced setup and set up normally.
Except that bottom (or inline) posters are much more likely to trim the quotes, because they have to look as part of the response
True. However we are mostly discussing business email here (where Outlook is the king.) Personal email is moved to Web-based MUAs long ago.
In a business setting you do not want to trim quotes. In fact, you do not want to mess with the message besides typing your two cents on top. Here is why.
Both posting orders have its place. Bottom post is useful if you publish for a very wide audience. You want to minimize the traffic, so you trim the quotes. You quote your opponent and then reply so that the discussion looks natural. Bottom posting practically requires plain text format.
Top post is better for smaller groups that are aware of the conversation. Top post can be seen as two parts: the message that you just typed and the history. Most people only want your message, but the history is also there because it costs nothing to keep it and it may be bad if you remove it, and it would cost you time if you start editing and rearranging it.
Today email is a commodity. Days of UUCP and 120 baud modems are gone. There is no point in saving bytes. Personal time is now the resource that we want to save.
"Both posting orders have its place."
Thanks for that. People should be free to choose, even if I disagree with their choice. Outlook, however, pretty much forces top posting. It doesn't really give you a choice.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law