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Apple Exits "Green Hardware" Certification Program

westlake writes "CNET reports that Apple is turning its back on the EPA supported EPEAT hardware certification program. One of the problems EPEAT sees are barriers to recycling. Batteries and screens glued into place — that sort of thing. There is a price for Apple in this: CIO Journal notes that the U.S. government requires that 95 percent of its electronics bear the EPEAT seal of approval; large companies such as Ford and Kaiser Permanente require their CIOs to buy from EPEAT-certified firms; and many of the largest universities in the U.S. prefer to buy EPEAT-friendly gear."

40 of 405 comments (clear)

  1. No Surprise There by getto+man+d · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Profit > The Environment

    1. Re:No Surprise There by NonUniqueNickname · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Profit > The Environment

      For Apple, sure. But for the iPhone-MacBook-iPad-owning-environmentalists this presents a dilemma (which I think will be hilarious to watch).

    2. Re:No Surprise There by busyqth · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Profit > The Environment

      Apple's move is driven by a design / certification dichotomy, not a profit / environment dichotomy.

      Whether a given device is EPEAT certified says absolutely nothing about whether it is actually more or less likely to be recycled or whether it is more or less a burden on the environment. All is says is that the device can be relatively easily disassembled for recycling by unskilled labor without special equipment.

      If Apple is willing to take all old devices for free environmentally responsible disposal / recycling (and I believe they are), then the EPEAT certification is of no great value to the environment in the case of Apple's devices.

    3. Re:No Surprise There by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Informative

      But for the iPhone-MacBook-iPad-owning-environmentalists this presents a dilemma (which I think will be hilarious to watch).

      That's been hilarious for quite some time now.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    4. Re:No Surprise There by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Bend the rules? What for? The 5% brass gets their iShiny, and for the rest of the company we now have a really good reason why they can't have an iShiny.

      It's so win-win.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    5. Re:No Surprise There by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Unrepairability.

      Which may or not be a word...

      But anyway, how many non-Apple products are 'repaired'? Rather depends on your definition of repair - replacing a battery could be considered repair and certainly Apple falls short compared to some other manufacturers. However, so far, replacing an iPhone battery has not exactly been a technical challenge for all but the most mechanically declined. It remains to be seen if the newer MacBooks with the glued in battery will really challenge anyone. I suspect it wont.

      While I think Apple can be taken to task for gluing a battery in rather than putting some clips on it, it's a small issue overall. I don't think it all counts towards whether or not a device is recyclable since it isn't hard to pry the battery or display out if you aren't looking to retain function.

      And if you use a slightly more reasonable definition of 'repair' - replace a bad screen or other component - who actually does that these days? The person interested in such things is definitely an edge case (or nut case). The average consumer and the average store is going to toss a defective device and pick up a new shiny.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    6. Re:No Surprise There by cheesybagel · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If the pieces are glued in a way they can't be easily separated you need to trash everything that is glued because of one malfunctioning piece. "Repairs" may end up trashing a large chunk of the appliance.

    7. Re:No Surprise There by tonywong · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This will be interesting to see what Apple's official response is. You can bet every other hardware vendor is watching this move, as well as the EPEAT people. If the public doesn't change their buying in response to Apple's move, then all the other vendors may decide that EPEAT certification isn't necessary for them to sell products. And EPEAT may have to change (relax/sell out/update) their rules in order to get Apple to return to the program if they feel that Apple will be the company that makes them irrelevant.

    8. Re:No Surprise There by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 5, Insightful

      ...spoilt brats who don't give a crap about anything unless it is fashionable

      You worked yourself into a lather about someone else's choice of product, to the point of creating a caricature to beat up. Be happy with your own choices and don't obsess over people who make a different choice.

    9. Re:No Surprise There by PoopMonkey · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I wasn't aware that employees of credit unions are exempt from paying taxes... By providing local employment, that sure seems like providing something to the local economy. I also wasn't aware that if a credit union is building a branch office or remodeling, they get the work done for free. I guess they also get electricity, water, internet, etc for free, thus not contributing to local economy? Shocking stuff to discover...
      Credit unions are also not-for-profit organizations, so it isn't quite an apples to apples comparison. Banks exist to create a profit. Credit unions do not.

    10. Re:No Surprise There by Gr8Apes · · Score: 4, Insightful

      blah blah blah... who would appoint themselves as philosopher kings to manage other people's lives and choices through government decree.

      You must really hate those republicans.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    11. Re:No Surprise There by PopeRatzo · · Score: 5, Funny

      You have a group of people advocating for the government to step in and force everyone else to make the choices that they prefer, choices which they believe (wrongly) will bring about some bullshit eco-utopia. At the same time, ironically, they whine and complain when that police power, the same power that they want to use against others (read their crazy list of demands) to force choices that wouldn't happen otherwise, descends upon them in the form of pepper spray, baton strikes and plastic handcuffs. I don't have any problem with people making their own choices and living their own lives, live your own life how you want. However, when you say that the government ought to force everyone else to make those same choices because you're "right" and everyone else is either wrong, misguided or stupid; well, that's when I take issue with filthy hippies who would appoint themselves as philosopher kings to manage other people's lives and choices through government decree.

      Man, that's some quality blather, right there.

      You have got to lay off the talk radio, friend. I didn't know it was possible to fit so much nonsense in one paragraph. If it had gone on another few sentences, you might have created a nonsense singularity that you'd never be able to escape.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    12. Re:No Surprise There by PopeRatzo · · Score: 5, Informative

      You mean the Occupy protesters that wanted everybody to stick it to the banks by joining Credit Unions, even though Credit Unions have the benefit of being tax-exempt (unlike banks) and therefore contribute NOTHING to the local economy, while at the same time hating the rich for using tax breaks? Those people?

      Credit unions are exempt from federal income tax (though they pay lots of employment, property and sales tax) because they are not-for-profit and thus exempt from federal corporate income tax. A corporation that does not make a profit has no income on which to pay federal corporate income tax.

      This is the reason that the boards of directors of credit unions are all volunteers and are member owned.

      The members of a credit union pay taxes on their income from the credit union, just like anyone else.

      Banks on the other hand, are entirely for profit, and thus pay taxes on their income because they are not required to re-invest all of their income in ways that benefit the members directly. A credit union does not have customers, it has members.

      I hope that cleared things up a bit. I'd hate for you to make those assertions where people know who you are and can therefore peg you as a dope. A little bit of information inoculates you from that embarrassment.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    13. Re:No Surprise There by cayenne8 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Ok...so, does anybody really look for some kind of 'green' label before purchasing a computer?

      I mean...is there anyone out there that uses 'green' as a deciding factor between models they are considering??

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    14. Re:No Surprise There by Miseph · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I have a friend who founded a computer sales and service company with precisely that goal. It's still fairly small and operates in a local market, but he started with very little working capital beyond his vehicle and personal know-how in a market already well-saturated by established competitors (including two Geek Squad dispatches).

      So yes, there are at least some people out there who make environmental considerations (including power use and heat generation) with regard to their computer equipment.

      --
      Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
    15. Re:No Surprise There by Keen+Anthony · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I've covered the Occupy movement and have heard from many Occupy protesters. I have seen that segment that advocates an end to capitalism, but they were definitely the fringe, just like the others who were advocating for marijuana legalization. There's also that anti-war contingency. Mostly the Occupy movement has been advocating for increased transparency in government, increased fairness for middle class via legislation that serves the desire of the populist middle class vs the elitist super-rich. There is the national healthcare issue, which I think you're talking about with the forcing everyone to make the same choices, but otherwise what other position has the Occupy movement tried to force on the entire country? And really, does the Occupy movement stand out from any other organized movement that's attempted to get everyone on the same page socially? The Tea Party is doing the exact same thing, and oddly enough, under the Tea Party banner are a lot of segmented positions that are in line with the Occupy movement such as pro-legalization of drugs, lower taxes, anti-war, greater transparency between government and business.

    16. Re:No Surprise There by dave420 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Not narrow-minded? If the battery is glued in, you can't remove it for correct recycling without rupturing it, spilling its contents. How is realising that is a bad idea "narrow minded"?

    17. Re:No Surprise There by Tough+Love · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm impressed how far Apple apologists are willing to go to apologize for the bad acting of their idol.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    18. Re:No Surprise There by DaveGod · · Score: 4, Informative

      Ok...so, does anybody really look for some kind of 'green' label before purchasing a computer?

      I mean...is there anyone out there that uses 'green' as a deciding factor between models they are considering??

      Yes.

      Not me personally, but as stated in TFA for many large organisations it's an absolute requirement. Without the cert the hardware simply isn't eligible for consideration.

    19. Re:No Surprise There by jbolden · · Score: 4, Informative

      just like the others who were advocating for marijuana legalization.

      Controlled marijuana legalization, i.e. that it becomes an FDA approved drug for cancer and glaucoma is polling over 70%. That isn't a fringe. http://www.people-press.org/2010/04/01/public-support-for-legalizing-medical-marijuana/ And from the same article in terms of recreational it is up to 41%. Again not a fringe position.

    20. Re:No Surprise There by jbolden · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I appreciate your use of Occam's razor, and I agree with the argument. Of course Apple can take them apart they say that 100 different places on their website.

      I'd just like to comment that http://www.werecycle.com/ is Apple's designated recycler and they've stated they know how to take apart the rMBP properly. Its a question of the right equipment and know how but it is not impossible. That doesn't meet EPA standards since EPA standards require that something be able to be broken down without specialized equipment.

      So the facts and the logic line up.

  2. Apple doesn't give a crap about business anyway by mwfischer · · Score: 5, Insightful

    No xserves, Lion Server is a piece of shit, ARD is a $90 add-on, took 3 years for a corporate iOS configuration tool, 5 for a competent one, Final Cut X rivals Windows Movie Composer, Mac Pros are $4,000 for almost 3 year old hardware, and with 10.8 tethering every machine to the App Store there are no "unregistered" machines...

    They're pro-sumer devices anymore.

    1. Re:Apple doesn't give a crap about business anyway by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      my company still won't approve any iPhones or iPads for corporate use because of the weak security features (so the IT guys say), Apple really doesn't 't give a crap about businesses and hence Blackberry stays in business....

      This sounds like bullshit since Apple has full-disk encryption + per app data encryption (with various flexibility options) + s/mime for email. Even iMessage and APNs uses TLS. So what else does an IT Department need?

    2. Re:Apple doesn't give a crap about business anyway by kqs · · Score: 4, Funny

      my company still won't approve any iPhones or iPads for corporate use because of the weak security features (so the IT guys say), Apple really doesn't 't give a crap about businesses and hence Blackberry stays in business....

      Since this was true three years ago, the good news is that your IT folks may only be about three years out of date with technology, thus placing them in the top 20% of corporate IT folks. Hey, I like to be optimistic!

    3. Re:Apple doesn't give a crap about business anyway by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The windows logo.

  3. EPEAT = Ugly? by Mal-2 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It seems that some of the EPEAT requirements lead to bulkier designs and quite possibly extra parts needed to hold it all together. It seems inevitable that this would violate the design principles Apple has been using for the last decade-plus, at least with portable products. If there's a way to shave a millimeter or a gram here and there, Apple will find a way to do it. It's one way they achieve product differentiation from the competition. Unfortunately, doing so means gluing things together and wedging things up tight in ways that don't want to be disassembled.

    I'm a bit surprised Apple isn't outright saying "EPEAT compliance means making our products ugly, and you don't want THAT, do you?"

    --
    How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    1. Re:EPEAT = Ugly? by Osgeld · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Glue is not a replacement for proper engineering

    2. Re:EPEAT = Ugly? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      as someone who has disassembled many of apple's glued-together-displays, i can say without a doubt that there is room inside for fasteners or magnets (like those used in the iMacs). Glue is just a way to keep the cost of repair high enough that replacement SEEMS like a better option for the user when the time comes.

    3. Re:EPEAT = Ugly? by bsane · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Meeting price points is part of engineering... shrinking the form factor a few mm each iteration is part of engineering. Apple cares about those things more than your ability to replace a battery with a screwdriver. Lets not pretend they're poorly engineered, they're engineered exceedingly well for their specs. Samsung would love to have an exact copy, I promise you.

    4. Re:EPEAT = Ugly? by rabtech · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You are over thinking it and/or biased. Apple uses glue because it is faster to manufacture and it frees you from certain structural constraints. I don't like that from a repair standpoint but I understand why they do it.

      The MacBook Retina has soldered memory because that allows the case to be smaller and the structure doesn't need accomadation for an access panel. It also simplifies the trace routing since you don't need to deal with a memory slot. I would also bet that 90% of their users never upgrade the memory in their laptops, so why compromise just for the 10%? I don't like this choice but it isn't some arbitrary scheme to scam people.

      --
      Natural != (nontoxic || beneficial)
    5. Re:EPEAT = Ugly? by jonesy16 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Well you could throw it away (tell me which dumpster you leave it in please, or you could pay $129-$199 for Apple to replace the battery for you so that it's brand new again.

      http://www.apple.com/support/macbookpro/service/battery/

      Doesn't seem like that pice is entirely out to lunch unless you shop the cheap 3rd party batteries for laptops. The OEM ones I've seen are generally around $100 anyway. Your call.

  4. Except phones and tablets by tomhath · · Score: 4, Informative
    I expect Apple is going to put pressure on EPEAT to relax their standards for laptops. But this won't hurt Apple much anyway since phones and tablets aren't rated anyway:

    an increasing part of its product mix is made up of iPhones and iPads, which are not currently certifiable under EPEAT.

  5. Energy == $$ by goombah99 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Total Environmental cost = manufacturing impact + use impact - recylcing recovery

    typically
      recylcing recovery << manufacturing impact

    all else being equal you'd like to increase recycling recovery but when there is a trade-off in that that increases the manufacturing or use cost it doesn't balance out.

    The hangup is the "easy disassembly" requirement whereas electronics is going to more and more unibody assembly. EPEAT probably is going to have to give on this or be replaced if that is the trend. Since most of the environmental impact happens in manufacture and there isn't a big gain for the environment in recycling It's not necessarily environmentally unfriendly to manufacture a device that is more economical to make and to use. Generally the cheaper something is the less total energy and resources were required to make it. The exception to that is when there is a large exogenous cost not paid by the maker (e.g. say some manufacturer dumping mercury into a river but not having to pay for the consequences). Apple has not said it is planning to shortchange that part of it's environmental policies.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    1. Re:Energy == $$ by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 4, Funny

      For what this thing costs I'm going to have to use it until it biodegrades!

    2. Re:Energy == $$ by sjames · · Score: 4, Funny

      He could install a spreadsheet program and use it for money laundering/

  6. Good move, Apple! by sk999 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Where I work we buy a lot of Mac laptops, but all must be EPEAT-compliant (or a variance must be granted, which isn't likely for that many machines.) I sense a lot of disgruntlement coming.

    Good move, Apple - you may have just saved Steve Ballmer's job.

    1. Re:Good move, Apple! by John+Bresnahan · · Score: 4, Funny

      Good move, Apple - you may have just saved Steve Ballmer's job.

      Given Ballmer's performance, helping him save his job may be the smartest move Apple could make.

  7. EPEAT is obsolete in this area by Anubis+IV · · Score: 4, Insightful

    EPEAT is only valuable in assessing products that don't have dedicated recycling programs in place. I.e. It's useful for assessing the general case, but fails to take into account any special considerations pertaining to particular products.

    For instance, Apple has had a recycling program available for years that is available as a free service to any of their customers. Given that Apple is promising to recycle your devices (including non-Apple ones) for you regardless of how difficult it is to do so, the ease of recycling them should be a non-factor to anyone but Apple, rendering the difficulty of recycling a meaningless measurement for outside consideration. And the fact that they've provided a decent incentive to use their service rather than go to a general purpose recycler has provided a good reason for it to be widely used. Most of the Apple folks I know are aware of the recycling program, even if they haven't had a reason to use it yet.

    Specifically, to use it, you just tell them what you have, and they'll send you pre-paid packaging for your device. In the case of computers (including non-Apple ones) or iOS devices, they'll give you a gift card for the fair market value of your device, and they give you 10% off a new iPod if you bring your old one into a retail location for recycling. They also take non-Apple mobile phones free of charge and with pre-paid shipping, though they don't offer any gift cards or discounts.

    To me, at least in this one narrow area, that all renders EPEAT's assessment obsolete, since it's failed to keep up with the times. It needs some way to account for such programs.

    1. Re:EPEAT is obsolete in this area by Halo1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Apple's recycling program only makes sense if there is no other recycling program available. Otherwise, it becomes a liability.

      To who? Not to Apple. Not to its customers.

      I'm an Apple customer. My country has a national recycling program for, a.o., electronics in place: shops are required to take back old electronic products and have them recycled, or you can bring them to recycling parks. If Apple products require special handling, that will make this program more expensive. Of course, this program is obviously a communist hippie nazi socialist terrorist conspiracy, so they deserve no better. Well, the actual reason for the program is simply that we don't have room for extra landfills anymore so we started recycling like crazy out of necessity, but never mind.

      But you already tackled the above:

      That's a problem with a one-size-fits-all program, not one specialized for Apple products.

      If disassembling Apple products requires more care and energy, that makes the recycling process as a whole less efficient. The whole point of recycling is to produce less waste (both in terms of raw materials and consumed energy). Since as of yet every single person inhabits the same world as the one supplying the materials and energy of which Apple products are made, their behaviour in fact affects everyone. Oops, there the whole communist hippie etc stuff rears its ugly head again.

      --
      Donate free food here
  8. Progression of technology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Posting as AC because I'm an Apple service tech in my day job.

    There's been internal jokes about the majority of the Retina MacBook Pro being a disposable computer. It's a very nice system and the display is gorgeous, but the way Apple constructed these machines is a bit perturbing. We can't even remove the battery pack- what iFixit reported is 100% true. The batteries are literally fused to the top of the unibody chassis, there's no magical Apple tool for prying the cells off the aluminum.

    When you pay $199 for a replacement battery, the service procedure for actually swapping out the cells is stupendously involved. Everything must be stripped from the chassis- the logic board, port boards, and display all have to be removed. What you're getting for $199 actually includes a new keyboard, trackpad, battery, and upper chassis- because it's all one unserviceable part (much in the same way that the display and iSight is considered a single P/N).

    A lot of people are wondering why they've done this- when a few screws and half a millimetre on the thickness would have allowed us to remove and swap the batteries in under 5 minutes. Heck, they could have built the batteries onto the bottom panel instead, that way battery swaps don't require removing the logic board. But they didn't.

    The only logical reason that anyone can come to is that this is simply a progression of technology. We are rapidly moving towards integrated devices that are completely unserviceable, essentially disposable, and as cram packed with technology as physically possible. Nobody has any doubt that if Apple could build everything onto a flexible circuit board adhered to the back of an LCD panel, then essentially immerse the entire thing in varying forms of resin to create a completely solid and totally sealed device- they would. Because that's where we're headed.

    The iPad 2 and iPad 3 have already taken the first steps towards this. They are sealed, we have no service procedures for doing anything to the devices. If it breaks or is defective, the customer gets a new one.

    Apple would just love to have all their hardware like this, because then us Apple techs become irrelevant and redundant. Any old monkey can plug a device into an automated suite of software testing tools and wait for the big green "PASSED" or red "FAIL" text, then take the appropriate direction to replace that hardware. All you need then is a system to handle defective hardware and make it go away- who cares about repairing it, the device is busted and it can't even be repaired anyways.

    -AC