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Dell To Offer Ubuntu Laptops Again
An anonymous reader writes "TechCrunch reports that Dell will be officially re-entering the Linux laptop market. Beginning this fall, it will sell a 'developer edition' of one of its Ultrabooks that comes pre-loaded with Ubuntu 12.04. Dell first started offering computers with Linux installed in 2007, but they dropped the products in 2010. This spring, a skunkworks effort called Project Sputnik was announced, and now, after the completion of a short beta test, the Ubuntu laptops have been given a green light for commercial sale. Canonical has been working alongside Dell to help make this happen."
It's good that Dell caught back up to 2007... but who the hell is buying Dell branded equipment in 2012? It'd be nicer to see a MS licence rebate for doing a clean linux install, now a model program like that would be news.
...to buy one, wipe off that buggy, proprietary OS and install Debian on it.
Last time I bought a Dell laptop, it was because I needed a high end laptop workstation, and it had to run Linux. I ended up buying a Windows one and putting ubuntu on it because ubuntu had restricted linux to only the really low end laptops.
At least they've got an ultrabook this time.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Is this announcement definitely from Dell, or is it more bullshit from Canonical? Canonical has previously announced various machines as coming with their Linux preloaded. Canonical claimed that for an EeePC model. Didn't happen.
My aging Dell laptop is due for replacement. I'm familiar with their hardware, BIOS, support site, etc, so I was not eager to have to shop elsewhere.
Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. - John 14:6 NLT
Last time I looked at one of these Linux laptops, the price was higher than the $350 Windows laptop I saw at staples. Therefore it saved me money to buy the Windows version, download Lubuntu, and install a dual boot, rather than support Dell Linux offering.
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
Now I can get a cheaper laptop and put on my pirated Windows 7 Ultimate! w00t!!!!!
(because *nobody* pirates the home edition)
Nobodies Prefect
Tidbits for Techs Technology Blog
I've always reserved "skunkworks project" for what I thought were interesting, kinda secret, complicated pursuits.
You know, like the exact opposite of dell slapping ubuntu on a laptop and selling it on their website. ;)
Looks like it's time to negotiate OEM Windows pricing with Microsoft. Out comes the old pal, Linux, and stays there right up until Microsoft complies with Dell's demands. This is getting tiresome. It's the third or fourth time they've done this, there's no element of surprise to anyone but people with Alzheimers.
$write you "Dude, you're getting a Dell"
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Even now, there are some notebooks available on their website, and you can probably get even more options when you ask them on the phone.
OS Reviews: Free and Open Source Software
Normally OEM licences are often on a 5 year term, so this would make sense timing wise.
Website Just Down For Me? Find out
Pressuring MS to give deep OEM discounts on their upcoming WIndows 8?
It happened at the same stage of the Windows release cycle before and probably worked.
dell gives linux laptops another chance, implying they were never a viable idea from the get-go. Personally? Fuck Dell. id rather take my business to system76 or penguin computing, or even los alamos if i had the cash. these are places where linux on the desktop is something thats existed and will continue to exist as long as your favourite linux is produced, so you dont need to worry about getting redmonds buy-in on how powerful your linux desktop is allowed to be, or at what pricepoint its required to be set.
TL;DR: stop buying linux from people who pander to the community for extra scratch in the fourth quarter earnings report.
Good people go to bed earlier.
Well, if you didn't get it... I was saying that Windows 8 is looking so bad that Dell is hedging their bet.
I was actually very interested in a XPS 13 Ultrabook. It had good reviews, a decent price and Linux would work on it. My only problem was that it supported a max for 4GB of memory. If it had at least supported 8GBs, I would probably own one right now.
I want a good laptop. Wake me up with Lenovo sells ThinkPads without Windows.
Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
Isn't it amazing how much work (meaning money) Dell has to put in to offering a "free" operating system on it's computers?
Bad for Dell, but definitely good for the legions of high paid consultants who provide incompetent support for Teh Lunix.
Hmmm typical Dell customers + Linux OS + Dell's legendary support quality = fantastic idea! I'm sure they won't have any problems with people calling in, asking how to do basically everything.
I currently have a MacBook Air, which is a nice piece of hardware, but I've yet to stamp out all issues (hangs on external display, random suspend borks, etc) running Ubuntu. If they deliver a laptop of similar quality with everything working nicely, I will buy it.
so why accept such an offer?
>>>It's the third or fourth time they've done this,
Don't you mean second? You can draw a line with two points, but you can't establish a pattern. You can't claim this is Dell's modus operandi with only 2 samples.
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
dell.com/ubuntu
Vostro 1440 still for sale, as always.
I'll be honest, I haven't given a Dell laptop a serious look in years, but I handled tons of them through the late 2000's and the build quality was so poor that I really don't even look at their equipment anymore when picking a laptop for myself or someone else. I don't know if they've changed recently, but I haven't heard anyone make that claim. It doesn't matter to me what OS ships with the hardware if the hardware itself is flimsy. A laptop that won't bend, crack or break at the hinges within a few weeks is worth a $50 premium, IMO. /.)
I actually feel that Asus and Toshiba build much nicer laptops at about the same price point, but I'm sure someone will disagree (after all, this is
As a user of Dell for Linux before the N Series came out and as a person that still uses an N series laptop and Ubuntu, I can tell you my next laptop, even if the are partnering with Ubuntu, will not be from Dell. Over the years I've felt pretty screwed over as a Linux user and the last re neg of their commitments to Linux users has convinced me to no longer be their customer. My next laptop purchase in on the horizon, and it will be from a vendor like System 76 or someone else that seems committed. Who knows when Dell will decide to defecate on the Linux community again.
"'who ISN'T buying dell"
Nor am I, nor will I ever. Back in the mid to late 90s DELL was an awesome system.
Anyone remember the Dimension 450? Anyway, in the early and mid-2000s, their overall service and quality level just tanked.
Intentionally so, actually. I am posting this as AC since I worked for Dell for a great many years as a Gold Tech Support Agent, and I don't particularly like the idea of being sued for letting the cat out of the bag.
The reason your service and quality level tanked -- why calls were outsourced to India, why parts became just a little bit flakey, etc -- was to give sales a reason to upsell you.
Yes, outsourced techs are cheaper (they make pathetically low wages), but they also gave us an opportunity to sell you a service contract to speak to an American for a vastly inflated price, and they make a killing doing so.
Yes, the cheaper parts are cheaper, but they gave us an opportunity to sell you a next day or 4 hour service contract for your hardware, rather than have you ship in the laptop or wait for service, and again, they make a killing doing so.
It's the latter (upsells) not the former (direct discounts) that Dell was interested in.
The higher ups were quite open with this when they were explaining why we couldn't help frustrated customers who India sent over to us -- if India couldn't fix something, and it was past 5 o'clock over there, they'd punt the customer over to us-- and we'd punt them right back, most of the time.
And yes, you can still get an American. When you buy your next Business model Dell, ask for a "Pro Support" warranty. Unfortunately, you won't get me, as my site (as well as all the Canadian sites) were outsourced... to Dell. They closed our site claiming they didn't need 3 Pro Support sites, then outsourced our jobs to a company Dell owns down in Florida -- but this way, they don't have to give benefits nor a fair wage. Ain't economics grand?
After a long time on Macs, I took the plunge into Linux with a Dell Mini 10.
I was amazed to find out that, once purchased, you were pretty much stuck with the OS as it shipped. If you upgraded, you broke the graphics driver.
There were gigantic, epic forum threads (this I think is the main one -- 543 pages. Not comments -- pages.) devoted to fiddling with command-line settings to try to get things working again. Eventually, it just got to be too much and I installed XP on the thing.
||||| Alaska Jack
Windows 8 is also launching the same time as this change. We've never seen them in the same room together. Coincidence? I think not!
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Perhaps this is Dell's way of jabbing back at Microsoft, after they announced their tablet, undermining many of their partners.
I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
Yep. Dell kept doing the same thing for years with AMD, threatening to start selling AMD-based systems to keep Intel motivated to give them sweetheart deals.
By the time Intel got tired of the tactic, the Core 2 had been released anyway so AMD was no longer the best. Kind of how Ubuntu's interface is no longer as-good-or-better than Windows' now that it's saddled with Unity.
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
I was going to order a Dell with Ubuntu, but the price was almost the same!
Instead I buy lightly used IBM and Lenovo laptops and add Ubuntu. They rock.
Be nice if I could find Linux drivers for the fingerprint reader and my camera is kind of dark, but other than those minor niggles, they're great Ubuntu boxes.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
If Dell is targeting these laptops for "developers", then why are they only offering laptops with lowest-common-denominator aesthetic features that many developers (myself at least) could not care less about? "Thin", "Beautiful Design" "Fast Startup", tiny hard drive, tiny screen, low RAM?
Serious? Hardware specifications of every ubuntu-bundled dell machine I've ever seen are entry-level and honestly quite terrible for development work. (For for my work at least. I write simulation and bioinformatics software). For years, the lack of graphics acceleration, and a tiny hard drive has been a deal killer. I can't speak for others, but I think it's safe to say that "developers" are not the kinds of people who (only) use laptops to give powerpoint/libre-office presentations or check facebook. We actually know what a dedicated graphics card is. We need reasonable hardware.
I managed to get a Vostro without MS Windows and with FreeDOS: Dell Vostro 200 Windows Tax Free in Mexico. It took some effort, but I had a very good point: Dell advertised that the Vostro was sold with any software the customer wanted ;-).
Perl Programmer for hire
I wish they've offer it on a wider range, but this could be cool. I bought the Vostro 13 right before they dropped it. Unfortunately it's currently waiting me to figure out what's dead, the HD data cable or the HD, I already eliminated that audio card that they sandwiched in there. It was an awfully sudden death :(.
I know it's natural to think of Linux as a developer's operating system, but if I had to develop software using the Unity interface, I would promptly fall on a sword. It would have been nice if they went with Linux Mint, but then they wouldn't get official support from Canonical. Oh well, at least it should guarantee a laptop complete with Linux-friendly hardware (not that Linux has too much trouble with modern hardware anyway) and then the user can install their favorite distro.
Looks like it's time to negotiate OEM Windows pricing with Microsoft. Out comes the old pal, Linux, and stays there right up until Microsoft complies with Dell's demands. This is getting tiresome. It's the third or fourth time they've done this, there's no element of surprise to anyone but people with Alzheimers.
Then I think they are doing it for the wrong reasons. They have with the launch of surface been sent a clear signal, "You are our bitch, It is our OS", we will take all the high end early adopter money, and we will keep all of your margins.
Dell needs to get going with a strategy that involves Coreboot; Libreoffice; dual boot android; full refund for windows + free penguin plush + credits; Chrome for Ubuntu Store; massive investing in Open source OS [hell their own closed source] and putting their skin all over it pick Meego/Android/Tizen/Gnome/KDE I don't care which.
The need to be talking to Asus; Samsung; Intel; Sony; etc etc about forming an effective defensive cartel against Microsoft, talk openly with transparency about what happens behind closed door with Microsoft, and to regulars within various Governments.
After Microsoft saying how rubbish your machines are produce a machine not limited by Microsoft restrictive OS. Say Debian+ARM+Valve Store+Google talk+touchscreen+Netbook+game controls+led keyboard though in some teaching materials/Edutainment and hdmi out and bundle with docking station, keyboard, Monitor and put unused alienware logo on it make glow with LEDs, link it with celebrity Sound system ...and sell it for peanuts look at how well Android hardware is doing.
At the very least they need to get their patent trolling on.
They need to show Microsoft that they are not Bitches, they need to show that Hardware controls the Software not the other way around. There is even the chance of Apple like money from these strategy.
Putting Linux on a few machines buried on their web site, is a *cough* symbolic gesture at best like a child kicking back at a parent by *sulking*.
This is likely in response to Microsoft's announcement/memo to PC distributors that they are basically getting into the hardware business.
Dell: "Yeah, well we'll just use Linux then!" *pouty lip*
What I find interesting is how closely this is following Microsoft's notice to these vendors that they're looking into selling their own hardware with their Windows 8 OS. Hmm...panicking much?
And what the hell drivers are you going to use to power this dedicated graphics card? The awful, barely-supported commercial ones from AMD, or the awful, barely-supported commercial ones from nVidia? Or the Free Libre Open Source Freedom Software ones that only support cards at least two years old?
Developers love pixels. Apple is driving this, but even PC vendors are jumping on this bandwagon. For example, see the upcoming Asus Zenbook UX31. 13.3" screen, Full HD resolution: http://ultrabooknews.com/database/ASUS/Zenbook%20Prime%20UX31A/
I want all the pixels.
I actually bought a Dell back in 2000. First computer I bought for myself using my own money. It was a 2700$ Dell Dimension 4200. Had a PIII 800 in it. Seems expensive now, and the video card was rubbish (TNT32), but it was rock solid.
Literately the thing is so heavy and over engineered, I would take odds of it smashing other PC's to splinters and being just fine if you used it like a physically PC smashing device. It also came with a piddly PSU (by today's standards), I think it might have been 230W, but you could plug in a fridge to that thing and it would run. Everything was quality, and it was noticeable. It still works today (though I don't use it much). I had a buddy come to me with a dead PC and wanted to recover the data on the old ATA drives, which of course I couldn't plug in my more modern system. I just levered the 4200 behemoth out from under the desk, threw on a Live CD of Ubuntu, and Boom data recovered. The only thing that was shit about it, was that it came with Windows ME, which was replaced by a cracked 2000, later cracked XP, and when I got sick of the viruses, Linux.
In addition, when I bought the thing, all the tech support (not that I really needed it) was in NA. Later I heard they moved the "consumer" tech support to India, while keeping business support in NA. It is likely all in India now I suppose. Heck even the huge CRT monitor I just dropped off last weekend to the hazardous waste depot, it still worked after a fashion, but has some lines thought the display. Anyway, they used to make solid products, but they have been in a race to the bottom (likely for lower and lower costs) with the rest of them (big box PC builders)...
About the only thing that hasn't changed is that their video card selections always suck. In my opinion the best bang for buck video card is always the mid range card, usually in the 150-200$ range. However without fail, the choices you are given by Dell every time thought out history are, low end, low end, extreme high end. So a 30$ card that is barely better than integrated graphics, an 75$ card which is better than integrated graphic, but not really suitable for gaming, or a 500-600$ bleeding edge overpriced card that is crazy. That was the one thing that always got to me about Dell.
At least with Ubuntu it is easy to install any Linux DE you want it, but with Windows 8 you can't remove it.
New things are always on the horizon
I purchased a dell laptop (m1530) with Ubuntu several years ago, with extended tech support. I had a harder time getting it to run properly than any other laptop in the last few years. Whenever I tried calling the tech-support, I had to transfer several times because they couldn't be bothered creating prompts for it in their phone support menus. I was actually told by their tech-support that my laptop stopped working because I did updates. With 12.04 I was finally able to get the sound working. Their website used to say "the most important thing you need to know about linux is that you don't get Windows". Look at their ubuntu website now. It has a underpowered laptop with a 15 month-old version of Ubuntu that you can't customize at all.
--- http://davidnehme.blogspot.com
Just in time for Windows 8 too!
No. He means 3rd or 4th.
I can certainly remember 3 iterations including this one. If you just fell off the turnip truck just yesterday, then that's just you.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
I wonder if they'll have a ace team of technical support agents in Canada again?
Probably not, since they laid them all off.
Dell start selling PC's [sic] with Linux (although in 2001 Dell Drop[ped] Linux on Desktops and Laptops); also, AFAIK you have always (well, since at least the late 90s) been able to order PowerEdge machines from Dell with Linux pre-loaded (Red Hat Enterprise, natch), and Dell has been pretty good about supporting Linux on their servers (see, e.g., the Dell Linux Engineering Web).
geek. lawyer.
The fiasco that was the Dell Mini 10 Poulsbo makes it hard for me trust them to support a Linux machine. It worked great until I tried to upgrade to a newer Ubuntu. Then the proprietary graphics driver had all sorts of problems.
Show me a machine will all open source drivers, and I'll be the first in line.
Here I'm writing this post in a Dell Latitude I bought explicitly because it came with Ubuntu (10.04). I couldn't be more satisfied: zero issues, ever. Curiously I'm looking for a new laptop (not a replacement, but a bigger one). I guess I will have a look at what Dell has to offer.
It's great that Dell is finally embracing Ubuntu, but they're doing it all wrong.
Still fanning the flames of "Linux is only for techie nerd programmers" (I have about a half-dozen relatives that are NOT techie-nerd programmers all using Ubuntu...most are Baby-boomer generation who find Ubuntu about as challenging as Windows, easier in some ways, even).
Still making it more costly, which is absurd, in it's own right.
If you want an Ubuntu laptop, just buy from a company like System76 or something; they specialize in it and are priced accordingly. (No, I am not a shill for them, just a fan.)
It's like Dell is setting themselves up for failure with this; "Hey guys, I've glued all these feathers to my arms, just like the birds have, and I still can't fly. No, you don't want that contraption that those bicycle guys are doing -- look how hard it is to operate!"
I got a refund for the Windows, Office and McAffe licenses of my new Dell Inspiron \o/
If they want to attract people to Linux and sell more of them why not offer a quality distro (Debian or CentOS) instead of shitty Ubuntu with all its bugs, flakey hardware suuport and everytime a new version comes out its a gamble what will break.
Mark S. is currently doing a big tour throughout the US with his jet, visting Dell, Lenovo, the White House etc.
Perhaps we can expect a similar announcement from Lenovo soon.
I thought they had strategized the paradigm to move everything to tabletspace vitally interlinked to all social media all the time. Laptops are so 3 minutes ago.
And yet Dell still had to take the hit from clueless mainstream media because LINUX MAKES YOU DROP OUT OF COLLEGE AND RUINS YOUR LIFE!!!
And it doesn't run Verizon Windows CDs and you can't install Microsoft Word!!!
AND EVEN IF A VERIZON COMES TO UR HOUSE AND GETS YOUR LINUX ON THE INTERTUBES AND YOUR COLLEGE ACCEPTS OPENOFFICE FILES YOU STILL HAVE TO DROP OUT!!!
AND YOU CAN'T HAZ CHEEZBURGER!!!
http://www.wkow.com/global/story.asp?s=9667184
Not true. My employer purchased several desktop systems (from Dell) with RH 6.2 installed in 2000 or 2001.
GNU/Linux is about the freedom stupid. If you're going to call your stuff "Linux compatible" it at least aught to be designed to the extent currently possible to be freedom friendly. Dell, Canonical, System76, ZaReason, EmperorLinux, LinuxCertified, and every company I've come across except one doesn't get this. It's been pointed out and disscussed a number of times in recent years that even of the companies the Free Software Foundation is linking to that only one offers 100% compatibility with free versions of GNU/Linux. The first three companies the FSF links to are: Garlach44, Los Alamos Computers (LAC), and InaTux. The last being ThinkPenguin.com. Of them only one is forging ahead and removing dependancies on non-free software. ThinkPenguin removed support for "Trusted Computing" recently and is working with chipset manufacturers to fix long standing issues.
And before you bash me for critisizing the stance of Canonical, and dare I say the Free Software Foundation. I'll point out that 95% of the problems people have with GNU/Linux (distributions which include non-free software) are related to non-free components. I shouldn't have to buy a Lexmark printer and replace it three months later because there was only one release of a propritary driver for a particular distribution or two.
Software needs to be free in order to be properly maintained by the community. The ALSA project (for audio) and many others agree here. Just because Linus doesn't see the issues doesn't mean the don't exist. The truth is he was just bitching about the lack of freedom last week though. It was regarding nVidia. nVidia doesn't properly support GNU/Linux. It's a nightmware dealing with that and another reason Linus should turn the kernel free.
Debian's inching ever closer to being a free software distribution. They've reconized these issues and removed the non-free firmware. Although there are other distributions that are better: Trisquel. It's a derivative Ubuntu without any non-free software.
But regardless of if you have Adobe Flash and other non-free software this is one area where there is no exscuse. You can avoid nVidia / ATI graphics, you can avoid Intel wireless chipsets, you can avoid Lexmark printers. Selling them as "Linux" compatible or "free" is just wrong. It's lying to your uninformed customers and hurting us users.
And before you respond negatively. I'm not perfect. I don't use a 100% distribution like Trisquel. That doesn't mean I have to agree with either "open source" or free software camps. We can find middle ground. Now lets do it. Stop promoting these sponges and start promoting companies that are actively supporting free software. Atheros has a free software USB wifi chipset (the only company to have such) as well as free software Mini PCIe Wireless chipsets. Intel has a free software graphics chipset. There are no Mini PCIe bluetooth chipsets that are free. You can get a USB wireless chipset that is free though. Once we have these issues fixed the community can move onto things like the BIOS and coreboot.
Choose the computer first then the OS. Many computers work with Linux. When they do not, there is a close alternative that works. I looked for a 13" ultrabook. An Asus and the Toshiba Z830 came out tops with the Asus having a slightly higher screen resolution. When I looked for Linux use, the Toshiba had several successful installs of Ubuntu described on the Web. There is very little difference between the two. The Z830 fits.
The same happens every time I look at a computer for a specific use. There are a small number that fit the requirements and at least one works with Linux. There is no need to look for Linux preloaded.
The first round of Linux netbooks, like Asus eee, should warn us away from "preloaded" Linux. They forked ubuntu, pointed their "preloaded" laptops at their own repository servers, then abandoned their fork. When users tried to reimage their EEE's to stock Ubuntu, they discovered Asus had taken advantage of "preloading" to roll a bunch of proprietary drivers into the thing, so it was actually much harder to install Linux than it would be on some random Intel reference design netbook, so while you might think preloading would mean optimized glitch-free hardware, in fact the opposite is the case. Finally, what's to stop Dell from selling various partners the rights to push bloatware onto these laptops?
I would want to buy a preloaded laptop if it were branded by a major Linux distribution with something to lose if they pull any of these tricks again. From Dell? No.
I avoid later-model Toshibas because they include firmware to enable Intel AMT - and consider it a feature!
Quoting Wikipedia:
Which means all sorts of bad guys can potentially get at it, too. And this is at a level below the OS, so even the OS can't defend against being turned into a zombie.
Toshiba isn't the only one that does this - with AMT or some other spy hardware/firmware combo. Plug your machine into an Ethernet, turn it off, and see if the green light on the Ethernet jack stays on.
(And you thought "secure boot" was bad...)
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Without a developer friendly screen resolution of at least WUXGA on a 15.4 or 15.6 inch screen, I fail to see how it will attract many developers.
Everywhere you go on slashdot and in other forums, every geek worth anything is screaming for such a laptop.
If Dell can't produce a laptop to meet that very basic spec., how can they hope to get anything else right?
When you travel, Dell's service is second to none. I've had my laptops serviced on 4 different continents, the next day. Including countries where English isn't the native language.
Broken power supplies, screens failing, keyboards broken, etc.
One phone call and someone is there the next day.
Sure, that's another $200 or $300, but when you need it, it is worth its weight in gold. And then some.
Folks that buy computers with fruit logos on them can only dream of worldwide service like that even though they pay twice as much.
So maybe the Pro support warranty seems like a rip off to you, but then it has never saved your bacon in a way that a lesser arrangement would not have.
It may not be Linux, but it is not-Windows...
Dell has been offering their workstation class computers for federal government procurement with FreeDOS for years:
http://www.dell.com/us/fedgov/p/precision-m4600/fs
Sucks they won't do this for mere mortals though.
There seems to be a lot of hateful words being thrown back and fourth on the concept of a Linux dev machine. People need to realize how much of the commercial industry is running Linux and unix operating systems! If your a developer you should already know this. If your a developer using Linux to develop then you know new technology and Linux dont mix well. That's all that is really being presented here; a laptop that doesn't have hardware compatibility issues or bugs you just have to live with. As for which distro you go with; I have been an SE for a long time now using all sorts of flavors of Linux and the thing that has ever been horrible about a Linux distro is hardware buggynesss. You hand me a Linux machine with full support and hand it to me in an ultrabook at that and I'm one happy developer. If your not a developer, I can see you not understanding this concept and if you are you know that code, script and html all looks the same. Sure deployment might be a little different based on the OS but that's what multi-platform development IDE's are for right?
Last time Dell offered systems but their cost was still higher than those with Windoze. Hopefully they offer the hardware this time at a reasonable price. Or offer PCs without an OS at all, which seems to be hard to find now too. I used to be an avid supporter of Dell, but after they dropped Linux and started playing games and ruined their Dell Outlet site, I stopped buying their equipment.