Ask Slashdot: Are The Days of Homebrew Gaming Over?

Croakyvoice writes "A few years ago the Homebrew community went from one console to another releasing some excellent software, from the Days of the Dreamcast the first breakthrough homebrew console, to the PSP which gave us the first handheld Nintendo 64, GBA and PSX emulators on a handheld. The last few years we have seen Microsoft, Nintendo, Sony and Apple all bring out means to thwart homebrew development. The app store on both Android and iOS have taken many homebrew devs over to try and break the market. The major consoles have so many firmware updates that the days of Homebrew seem to be numbered, is there a way back for the Homebrew Community?"

Comments

No

[clarkn0va]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge's_Law_of_Headlines

Re:No

[Raven42rac]

I wish I had karma to spend on this.

Re:No

[SomePgmr]

Indeed. And I see a looong list of games for the XBL Indie section. Same for obviously amateur games in the Android market. Not to mention all the PC games I see in HIB's and the like.

Seems to me "homebrew" has become a more legit thing, embraced by various platforms. Not killed.

Re:No

[drinkydoh]

Homebrew isn't over, it's just been replaced by indie games. It's somewhat similar to shareware games from the 90's and early 2000's.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

Interesting. I've never heard of this. It's a pretty good point.

Re:No

[Moheeheeko]

All the more reason that Homebrewers are the gaming hipsters, because now it is accepted and common its dead and uncool.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed. And I see a looong list of games for the XBL Indie section. Same for obviously amateur games in the Android market. Not to mention all the PC games I see in HIB's and the like.

Seems to me "homebrew" has become a more legit thing, embraced by various platforms. Not killed.

It's a fake. It's the corporate distillation of a movement it saw as a threat into something that can "value add" and make money.

First example: XBox Live Indie Games. It's just like homebrew, except it's shackled and chained. You can't distribute XBL indie games for free, you must charge at least $1. The free demo 8 minute time limit is enforced by Microsoft, not the developer, and they can't bypass that. You can't deploy to XBox without paying the $99/year fee. Indie games are capped on size, no one can release more than X number of games, they can't run native code, they're capped on performance, they can't run online servers for simultaneous play, they can't be released without peer approval, they're content filtered... the list continues.

Android is much better, in fact, probably the best out of the bunch, sure, but that's just in contrast to the iOS developer programs. If it doesn't turn out to be complete vaporware, the Ouya will probably really get the arms race going. Still, Google removed emulators, so...

Humble Indie Bundle is just a brand now. The last "humble" bundle contained two major label releases, Psychonauts and Amnesia. If I were an indie game developer, chomping at the bits to get my stuff out there, that would really piss me off. Still, just a cash-in on the indie craze.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the latest Hunble Bundle is still in progress, and is their first go at music. http://www.humblebundle.com/

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think censor means what you think it does.

Re:No

[Lord Lode]

Short answer: no.

Long answer: nope.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

but i have karma and spent it on you.... negatively

Re:No

[ninjackn]

Can we, as a community, get over Betteridge's Law of Headlines? Please? I'm seeing it all over slashdot recently and it really is just the latest incarnation of FIRST POST. While "no" may end up as a valid answer to the headline, it kills the discussion by religiously applying an adage instead of introducing replies to the summary with new facts, anecdotes or questions. Sure the headline might be crap but that doesn't mean we need to reply back with crap.

Re:No

[shadowrat]

While i agree the answer to this submission is a resounding, "no", this is in ask slashdot. The very nature of these submissions are always going to be questions. isn't Betteridge's law intended to be invoked in journalism? This isn't a journalistic article. It's legitimately someone's question. BLOH doesn't state that the answer to all questions is no.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

When its oppressed by those in power (those with moderation points), that absolutely is censorship. We now know reality doesn't means what you think it means. Wonderful example of just how completely clueless the slashdot masses have become. You are a postchild the ignorance and unjustified ego so common with the slashdot group-think.

Must suck that reality is constantly reminding you how wrong you are every day. So glad I'm not you... but it still sucks what you and others like you have done to slashdot. It used to be great. It used to awesome. Now its just ignorant - like you.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

I would be remiss if I did not point out the meme that only governments censor--slashdot is a private organization, and if it manages to compete successfully with the government for the right to control what you read, it is to be applauded for its initiative, for undoubtedly it will exploit it more efficiently.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

They're moderator points, Jackass. Go back to the dregs of Reddit, where you belong.

Re:No

[sortius_nod]

There is no conversation to be had when a headline & story is so uninformed. It's just some writer trying to justify having their job. The article is wrong, the answer is no, nothing more can be said.

Re:No

[k3vlar]

How about the headline "Can all newspaper headlines ending in a question mark, be answered with 'No'?" Ha, Mr. Ian Betteridge, I was wise to your little game, and I beat you!

Re:No

[Raven42rac]

Cute. If you had a profile you could click on it and see this on the top right: http://i.imgur.com/2fPxv.png I'll give the troll attempt a solid 2/10. Also check out my 400,000s user number. Good day sir, or madam.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

In the information age everyone is a journalist, every blogger, commenter, troll, noob, everyone - the answer is NO!

Re:No

[hairyfeet]

Welllll...not that I'm gonna argue that point but I think what they are talking about is traditional homebrew, where since you could hack your way to bare metal you could squeeze a little more out of it, kinda like how we all PEEKed and POKEd our way around the C64 back in the day. Also a big part of homebrew was emulators and ports, so you could play just about anything anybody could manage to get to run on the chips.

Now THOSE days are well and truly over, I mean good look getting a Win 3.x or Genesis emulator allowed through the appstores, even if the hardware could run it, because everything goes in the sandboxes. That is the big difference between then and today, as then once you hacked the system the ENTIRE system could do what you wanted, now its all sandboxes. I do think its kinda depressing if only for the fact that the homebrw hackers could give us cool uses for gear after the publishers had walked away. Remember how nicely those cheap Xbox 1 units were for being media boxes? How once hacked you could play damned near anything on them as long as it was in SD? That was nice. Imagine what they could do with the X360 or PS3 once MSFT and Sony moved on, instead they'll probably just end up junked or in somebody's closet like all those Gamecubes and N64s.

So while I'm glad the indie game devs can get some cred and get paid for what they cook up they weren't the only part of the homebrew scene and its just a shame that all these locked down devices will probably be headed for the dump when the companies that control them move on instead of finding new uses thanks to homebrew. Take the DC for instance, I've still got one of those, its great for playing all my old Genesis and NES favorites when I want to just kick back on the couch. We won't be seeing anything like that once the companies move on, and that's kinda sad.

Re:No

[Wraithlyn]

What is karma?

Your karma is a reference that primarily represents how your comments have been moderated. [...]

http://slashdot.org/faq/karma.shtml

Re:No

[Bobtree]

The headline is not the question asked by the submitter.

Re:No

[ryanisflyboy]

How To Clean Up My Work Computer Before I Leave?
No.
the Best Linux Setup To Transition Windows Users?
No.
Preempting Sexual Harassment In the Workplace?
No.
Open Source Employee Vacation-Day Tracking Software?
No.
What's Holding Up Single Sign-On?
No.

I'd have to say that Betteridge's Law is intact.

Re:No

[russotto]

How about the headline "Can all newspaper headlines ending in a question mark, be answered with 'No'?" Ha, Mr. Ian Betteridge, I was wise to your little game, and I beat you!

Curse you, Bertrand Russell!
    -- I. Betteidge

Re:No

[Grieviant]

It's a fake. It's the corporate distillation of a movement it saw as a threat into something that can "value add" and make money.

First example: XBox Live Indie Games. It's just like homebrew, except it's shackled and chained. You can't distribute XBL indie games for free, you must charge at least $1. The free demo 8 minute time limit is enforced by Microsoft, not the developer, and they can't bypass that. You can't deploy to XBox without paying the $99/year fee. Indie games are capped on size, no one can release more than X number of games, they can't run native code, they're capped on performance, they can't run online servers for simultaneous play, they can't be released without peer approval, they're content filtered... the list continues.

I honestly don't understand why people bag on XBLIG so much.

First, the $1 price tag really isn't a big deal now, is it? That's quite a reasonable price for any game that can provide at least a few hours of entertainment. Given the option, I suspect the majority of XBLIG developers would charge a bit just to try to recover some small amount of money for the time invested, especially considering you're not allowed (AFAIK) to earn money through in-game advertising. As you point out, there is always a demo version available free of charge, so nobody is paying money for games that end up sucking.

I would also say that the $99 per year developer fee is by no means onerous. You receive the XNA C# libraries, a good amount of example code, avatar animation packages as well as a pretty decent 3D modelling and animation tool (SoftImage mod) for that fee.

Peer approval is actually a good thing, if for no other reason than to keep the thousands of fart apps from cluttering the XBLIG marketplace. This is done by the XNA community rather than MS, and the standard for approval is quite low - they're only providing violence ratings for your game and making sure nothing fishy is going on. No legitimate game has ever been rejected for arbitrary reasons like you see in Apple's app store.

Finally, do you really think MS is making any serious money off of XBLIG? They give the developers 70% of the sales proceeds, so I highly doubt that. It's more likely a loss for them. There have been a few games that sold more than 100,000 copies, making some decent money for the developer, but those are few and far between.

Re:No

[Pseudonym]

I double dare you to submit an article with the subject line: "Are you functionally literate?"

Re:No

[Pseudonym]

More to the point, what the question is really asking is what the modern outlets are for homebrew/indie game developers. Of course, the answers are "there are plenty":

- Web (Flash/Java/HTML 5)
- Android
- XNA
- Most crucially of all, modding

Most big studios love you modding their engines, because who uses your mod must have (in theory) bought the game.

Re:No

[Pseudonym]

Apologies for the bad copy-editing. I really should check before submitting.

Re:No

[savuporo]

That page got 19 errors, 17 warnings in W3C validator while claiming to be HTML5 ( a standard that is not finalized yet ) Clearly, it's not valid.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

All of your points are just rationalizations for friction added by Microsoft to the xbox indie market. Great games that could have existed dont because of that friction. Good games could be even better without it especially the prohibition on native code. And while your busy making excuses, don't forget that what it all boils down to is Microsoft segmenting the market between the little guy peons and the big developers releasing regular games for the console. EA et al thank you for your support.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed, the sooner Slashdot can get over posting sensationalist tech journalism with question mark headlines, the sooner we can advance as a species.

Re:No

[LittleImp]

So you seriously think this kind of question is actually valuable to discuss about? Obviously homebrew is not dead... Seriously this guy is not even part of the homebrewing community. This is like asking "Are the days of breathing over?". There is seriously no valid merit of discussing this shit.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

First, the $1 price tag really isn't a big deal now, is it?

I think the big deal here is that the price is imposed, instead of letting the developer decide whether the game is paid or should be free (of course, it may not make that much sense from a business perspective, but the point is that it isn't exactly a perfect replacement).

Re:No

[Forty Two Tenfold]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge's_Law_of_Headlines

ORLY? Try this:

When will the trolling stop?

No.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

The more precise answer would be: nope.avi

Re:No

[CheshireDragon]

I think this is why the old Unreal was so popular. 2.26F I think was the last update from ages ago.

I first had this back in 1998 on a Pentium 133Mhz, 16MB RAM and a 4MB video card and it ran very smooth.
I wonder what it would look like on my new 8-Core 3.1Ghz, 16GB RAM and 1GB HDMI video card. I still have the original disc I bought from CompUSA. It looks like a pirated version with its printed label and when put in the drive it gives a date code like a burned disc. I always thought this was odd.

Xgamestation

[Anonymous Coward]

Is the Xgamestation still around in any meaningful sense?

Easy.

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

You can write a "homebrew" choose-your-own-adventure text game in minutes or hours at most.

Without some understanding as to what the author means by "homebrew", this question can't really be answered effectively.

Perhaps if there were an article linked, we'd get that additional information...

Re:Easy.

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

I should also add: perhaps coincidentally it sounds like someone is planning on pitching OUYA to us again very soon...

Re:Easy.

[Anonymous Coward]

It does seem a pretty solid answer to the question:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ouya/ouya-a-new-kind-of-video-game-console?ref=search

I'm a backer precisely because large deployments of similar hardware make for great indie games. Too often with Android games I don't have the device that the author had, so it either doesn't fully utilize my device (e.g. RoboDefender) or crawls on unaccellerated GPU hardware (e.g. Meteor). The OUYA may be the next Amiga-500... For the cost of two XB360 titles.

Re:Easy.

[Anonymous Coward]

it looks promising, but i just hope they don't wall up the garden. i mean that anyone can develop and get their title on the store, especially without some bs developer fee.

Re:Easy.

[Bert64]

The next Amiga 500 is exactly what the world needs...

It was powerful, and yet also highly affordable.
It was open to homebrew developers and also had a good selection of big name games.
It came with a fully capable OS and programming languages, and encouraged you to learn about them, rather than making you scared of breaking it.

It was easy to pirate games... While this is controversial, it certainly helps the platform. All of the people i knew at the time (being in my early teens at the time) bought some games and pirated others (usually by sharing copies with friends), there's no way we could have bought more games because we simply didn't have the cash. Had we not been able to share games, we simply would have had less of them, and some games we would never have discovered at all.

It was a computer that could be used for educational purposes, not just a console - a factor that made many parents choose it.

What we need is a system that is affordable, can provide affordable and accessible entertainment but can also educate. The Amiga provided that once, but we need a modern replacement!

Re:Easy.

[AmiMoJo]

Homebrew generally refers to software for systems that do not provide any kind of native programming capability, i.e. games consoles. Writing software for PCs is just indie development, they are designed to run user code. At first games consoles were just hard to develop for because the tools were really expensive and hard to get, and then came more and more elaborate copy protection. The complexity of the hardware has also increased massively to the point where even official developers probably don't understand most of it at the register/electronics level because everything is accessed via high level APIs.

Re:Easy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Homebrew generally refers to software for systems that do not provide any kind of native programming capability, i.e. games consoles. Writing software for PCs is just indie development, they are designed to run user code.

Right, and in the context of that definition, the answer to the headline is: "Yes. But only because Homebrew is being replaced by Indie development as platforms have begun providing native programming capability, for example xbox live."

Non-story, non-issue. Might have been an interesting discussion if the submission wasn't a pile of sensationalist pigshit.

Homebrew Sites have mostly gone to the wall

[Anonymous Coward]

Even sites like http://psp-news.dcemu.co.uk/ and http://dreamcast.dcemu.co.uk/ these days are struggling because the vast majoriity of users have left these consoles behind and new consoles just arent getting hacked like they used to and the likes of Nintendo etc release so may updates that it seems genuine homebrewers dont stand a chance, hacking of consoles for pirating however is as strong as ever.

Re:Homebrew Sites have mostly gone to the wall

[Anonymous Coward]

That and the moderation staff are a bunch of ass clowns, no one wants to post on a site where a mod in disagreement will go and edit your post to support their opinion. I dont know how it is there now, but when I left it had happened to me a few times, by multiple mods whom then giggled about doing it to users in open discussion.

Next you have the fact that the website is difficult to navigate if you ever dare go looking for something thats not on the front page, and goes down more times than a ho at a crack factory and eventually you say fuck it.

oh yeah

[FranTaylor]

gaming is lots of fun when everyone makes up their own rules

Re:oh yeah

[Anonymous Coward]

Calvin Ball! Never plays the same way twice.

and nothing of value was lost

[Anonymous Coward]

it would be fantastic if homebrew had a trackrecord that produced meaningful software (outside of emulator ports). But for the most part, most homebrew turns out to be no better than Amiga demo scene at best.

Re:and nothing of value was lost

[jellomizer]

The current generation of Consoles are getting old... If you are going to be doing home brew gaming then you want to work on the newer stuff. And most of this Home Brew computing was partially just to learn, but often in an attempt to make something that will be good enough to sell or get fame for. The new Software Store helps release software without the massive burden of before.

Forgot about XNA?

[Anonymous Coward]

XNA, yeah you can homebrew some games for the XBOX consoles... also there is a whole indie game store to!

Re:Forgot about XNA?

[Anonymous Coward]

drop the bullshit dev fee and singular, controlled storefront, and we have a deal.

Depends, how much money you got?

[crazyjj]

Well, in the U.S. at least, if you could come up with enough campaign contributions to buy repeal of the DMCA, then sure. But considering the deep pockets of Sony, Apple, Disney, etc. it's going to cost you a LOT. Otherwise your only real shot is to get the Supreme Court to rule the anti-circumvention provisions of the DMCA unconstitutional. And as conservative as the Court is these days, you can pretty much forget that. The DMCA appears to be here to stay.

Re:Depends, how much money you got?

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck homebrew. You want to write your own games? Do it on the PC. Until that's locked down at least. Homebrew is a distraction and a trick to build on a closed platform by prying it open temporarily with a hack. Don't do it. Put your effort into a platform that's actually open. Don't like the diversity of hardware and software? Well if you can build for a Nintendo Wii with it's underspec'd everything and still come out with something fun and usable, stop whining and build for the lowest common denominator on the PC

Re:Depends, how much money you got?

[GameboyRMH]

I never understood why people target closed platforms as anything but a last resort. And the more people do it, the less open platforms there will be.

Re:Depends, how much money you got?

[Sir_Sri]

Fuck homebrew. You want to write your own games? Do it on the PC. Until that's locked down at least.

The PC is never really going to be 'locked down'. If you look at the Apple app store, google play, etc. you can always release shitty student project games for free on those. The PC is no different, so long as you can download and run an executable you can play a homebrew game on it.

The consoles are fundamentally different in that they are intended to lock you out of running arbitrary code - that's both good and bad. Bad if you don't have any other means of getting software, good if you want a device that is safe to hand to your 13 year old and know he's not going to accidentally get a virus and blank your data or the like. The consoles also require a certain level of quality and so on for games to show up there, that means you know that whatever you buy on a console will behave a certain way to some degree, you have no such guarantees on the PC. Which is why there's a market for both, not everyone wants to use their brain the think about games.

But yes, generally, if you want to give away your product for free, and you don't want to be bound by onerous requirements the way to do that is PC or Apple or Google, not XBL/PSN/Wii.

Re:Depends, how much money you got?

[MindlessAutomata]

Because platforms like the PSP and the Nintendo DS were were the only portable gaming options on the market. Now with the rise of phones and tablets homebrew probably really will die because I can't really see a future for handheld consoles when tablets and phones do a much better job all-around. Once better controls are worked out for tablet games or peripherals for them become more common I don't think we'll see much in the way of handheld consoles unless Nintendo thinks up a new, compelling gimmick.

Re:Depends, how much money you got?

[larpon]

Totally agree here - it made sense in the C=64/Amiga/Amstrad/Atari days because that was what was available at the time (degree of 'closed' platform can be discussed, yes).
Today - not so much.

Re:Depends, how much money you got?

[jason8]

My understanding of "homebrew" is that it's really a code word for cracking the platform, i.e. providing a way for users to play games on the console without owning a physical copy of the game. So in that light I can understand why Sony/Nintendo/Microsoft would be trying to make it go away.

I'm sure that people in the homebrew community would disagree with this, but for every enthusiast, there are probably 100 or 1000 people who would like to build a huge library of free games, enabled by a hack developed by one of the enthusiasts. And this would easily explain the interest in closed platforms.

Re:Depends, how much money you got?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not really true. The market did have options, just not the mass market. The GP32 had a certain degree of openness, and shortly after the PSP and NDS were released, the totally open GP2X appeared. Later came Wiz, Caanoo, Dingoo A320, OpenPandora...

Also No

[Anonymous Coward]

There are a number of games made by enthusiasts for the systems that I grew up with. People are writing games for the C64, Atari 2600, etc. Not in the kind of numbers as back in their heyday, but there is still life non the less.

These systems are well known, fully documented. All of the tricks are there to try out, lots of great sprite editors, assemblers, etc. There is no need to homebrew only on phones.

Look into XNA

[The Dancing Panda]

As far as I know, you can still write a game in XNA, play it, distribute it, and indeed sell it in XBox Live.

Re:Look into XNA

[Lord Lode]

But why would you do THAT if you can hack it together in Linux with SDL?!

Re:Look into XNA

[Anonymous Coward]

1) consistent platform
2) it just works out of the box
3) 'app store'
4) linux just isn't that cool...imho
5) larger install base for the target market

Re:Look into XNA

[NewWorldDan]

Some of us have a skill set that's all Microsoft. My kid and I downloaded XNA and hacked out a rudimentary 2D game and a map editor in a couple of hours. I suspect I would spend at least as much time downloading SDL and getting it to work with Visual Studio. Run anywhere approaches usually mean a lot of work getting things to run correctly on the target platform. No thanks.

Re:Look into XNA

[Anonymous Coward]

Some of us want our friends, family, and other normal human beings to be able to enjoy what we made. You know, the kind of people that don't have Linux installed. I realize they may not figure prominently in your worldview, being only a negligible 99% of the populace, but I hear they like games too.

Re:Look into XNA

[humanrev]

Some of us want our friends, family, and other normal human beings to be able to enjoy what we made. You know, the kind of people that don't have Linux installed. I realize they may not figure prominently in your worldview, being only a negligible 99% of the populace, but I hear they like games too

You don't have to be smug. SDL works in Windows, OS X and Linux - build a game using it for one platform and porting it to the rest should be, in theory, painless (or at least much less painful than using something like DirectX and THEN trying to port).

The argument several people have made (including the guys behind the Humble Bundles) is that it doesn't make sense to choose an API that only works on one or two platforms (i.e. DirectX) when you can pick something which exists on far more (i.e. SDL + OpenGL). Yes Windows constitutes the largest audience, but there's no reason to limit yourself if you don't have to. Valve are learning that as we speak.

Re:Look into XNA

[Lord Lode]

Then it's probably more difficult to use SDL in the so called "easy" Visual Studio, because in Linux all it takes is adding -lSDL to your compiler flags. Half a second of work.

Re:Look into XNA

[Anonymous Coward]

And don't forget MonoGame XNA. Maybe not 100% compatible, but close enough to #if your way around obstacles.

Re:Look into XNA

[Jesus_666]

Well, SDL can be finicky on non-Linux platforms. It runs well enough but on Windows you have to deal with no package management so you need to set up stuff by hand in order to develop for it. On OS X the development resources (headers etc.) were nontrivial to install properly the last time I tried but work as expected once you've got them.

That's really a big advantage of having a package manager: Getting (supported) libraries set up for development is dead easy.

Re:Look into XNA

[Anonymous Coward]

Some of us have a skill set that's all Microsoft.

I don't see a problem with that... I mean, it's not like MS have a history of screwing their developers over...

Oh, wait, yes they do.

My kid and I downloaded XNA and hacked out a rudimentary 2D game and a map editor in a couple of hours.

If you're doing "rudimentary" crap. You could have used JavaScript and Canvas in your webbrowser. The result will be very "rudimentary" but I'm sure it would have taken even less time then setting up .Net/C++ projects.

Days of consoles

[vlm]

Doesn't that kinda incorrectly assume the days of consoles haven't already ended?
I suppose homebrewers can release long after industry support goes away.

Its getting kind of bad in console land. My son's favorite game to play on the big screen is angry birds on the roku, when he's not playing on his ipod touch. At his age I was a little atari 2600 / Coleco monster. He does occasionally play some wii games, but the streamers and the app developers will eventually figure out multiplayer and then its bye bye consoles.

Re:Days of consoles

[Anonymous Coward]

Fact Bother. I have been desperately trying to get my 4 year old to play some good old games but he's happy to tool around with some meager Kinect games and ipad stuff. When I was little you couldn't tear my away from mah console.

Re:Days of consoles

[gorzek]

You incorrectly assume that there is only one gaming market. This is like assuming there is only one car market.

The gaming tastes of the Xbox/PlayStation audience can't easily be stripped down to work on iPhones and Nooks.

What will likely happen is that portable gaming consoles will die off for all but the most demanding gamers. Portable gaming in general will move to general purpose mobile devices (smartphones, tablets.) Home consoles will stick around because there's a substantial market that wants them. Gaming on PCs will likely consist of two main markets: console ports and indie titles, with frequent overlap between them (indie PC games being ported to consoles, vice versa, etc.)

This is actually a great time for "homebrew" development, if by "homebrew" we mean "people with ideas making them into reality without the financial backing of a corporation." The barriers to entry in game development have come down quite a bit in the past few years, as people realize you don't need to spend tens of millions of dollars to make a good game.

Re:Days of consoles

[rjr162]

What's funny is angry birds on the iPad/roku is also something my 2 and a half year old son likes. Along with doom on the iPad...

BUT he *loves* the atari arcade on the iPad, he'll play it more than the others. He also goes into the spare bedroom and turns on the C64 himself and plays Clowns (he loves that game as well)

I didn't force any of the games on him.. He freely chooses what he wants. In the Atari arcade his favorite would be.. Honestly I forget the name and never played in when I had a 2600 growing up.. But some game where it shows a ship and 3 guys standing next to it, one guy runs over and hops in. You then have to shoot some emeny ships that hide around some big square. After that you have to land the ship on some white line landing area, which takes you into some area where you have to get to some object before your O2 or reactor runs out and escape back to your ship (then rinse and repeat)

Re:Days of consoles

[Anonymous Coward]

OMG you mean you can outskill your son at videogames?
SOCIETY IS DOOMED I TELL YOU!

Re:Days of consoles

[Anonymous Coward]

In the Atari arcade his favorite would be.. Honestly I forget the name and never played in when I had a 2600 growing up.. But some game where it shows a ship and 3 guys standing next to it, one guy runs over and hops in. You then have to shoot some enemy ships that hide around some big square. After that you have to land the ship on some white line landing area, which takes you into some area where you have to get to some object before your O2 or reactor runs out and escape back to your ship (then rinse and repeat)

That would be Major Havok. Yes, I'm a geek.

Re:Days of consoles

[vlm]

Gaming on PCs will likely consist of two main markets: console ports and indie titles

Maybe a 3rd market of obscure genres. May want to separate that from "indie titles". On my PC I like flight sims (think, like x-plane) and hex-based military sims (think, like almost anything matrixgames sells) and single player RPGs (think, like anything spiderweb/Jeff Vogel sells). Both are pretty much indie but they're not indie as in yet another "indie fps" or "indie car race game". It would be hard to kill off indie gaming on desktops/laptops without creating a walled garden.

Some other unkillable obscure genres include text adventures and naval simulations (Harpoon, etc)

Home consoles will stick around because there's a substantial market that wants them.

Ah but my $100 roku does angry birds... give it another decade and the concept of stream appliances and consoles being separate will likely disappear.

The next step after that would be you'll just plug your HDMI cable into your phone and play FPS. At that point the "home console hardware market" will be a really long HDMI cable or equivalent.

Raspberry Pi

[bool2]

Given that you can buy a completely functioning computer for about £30/$50 then I would say they've just begun again!

Re:Raspberry Pi

[macdude22]

Is the xgamestation around still in any meaningful sense? I had played with one once in a tech club in high school.

Re:Raspberry Pi

[icebraining]

A completey functioning computer, except for the mouse, keyboard, power supply, storage and screen.

Re:Raspberry Pi

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that you probably already have most of this around your house anyway:

1. Old USB keyboard and mouse from a computer you spilled coffee on, collecting dust on the top shelf
2. Unused SD card from the camera, waiting patiently in some drawer ever since you upgraded to a higher capacity card
3. Spare USB charger bundled with the phone that has already outlived its usefulness - you got a new phone, with a new charger on the contract anyway
4. The old TV that you threw into the garden shed when switching to HD flatscreen for the living room

The point of Raspberry Pi is to be accessible to students. Raspberry Pi itself is cheap and the peripherals were chosen in a way that makes sure you already have them for whatever reason, like most families do.

Re:Raspberry Pi

[icebraining]

Well, as a student myself just a couple of months ago, I don't have a digital camera, an phone with an USB charger (or a contract) and the old TV is still my main TV.

In fact, I'd say that people who do have all that can probably afford a netbook faster than a Rasp.Pi.

Not really.

[tlhIngan]

Unless homebrew means "writing software by breaking through console security", there's plenty of homebrew out there.

The fact that Android is mentioned means the original question is vague to begin with!

First off, Android has basically no restrictions - you can install any app any which way you want. There's no "security" to break through so homebrew is basically legitimized - anyone can download the Android SDK and whip out an app. For iOS, it's mostly true as well - homebrew apps games well, they just get the SDK, pay $99 and publish it.

If you want apps that Apple doesn't approve, there's jailbreaking (all Apple devices except AppleTV have a method to do so - all iPhones through (and including) the 4s, iPod Touches and iPads), of which there's a homebrew community as well.

And the Xbox has a homebrew games community they call Xbox Live Indie Arcade as well.

Then there's the venerable PC which even with Mountain Lion can still run any valid executable code.

Of course, if the question is about people breaking security for fun, there's iOS jailbreaking and console security busting.

Between the PC, Xbox Live Indie Arcade, Android, and iOS, there's an outlet for one's programming talents that has legit paths that require no work to customize, really. And since the signing keys for the PS3 are public as well, the PS3 is also an open target that no firmware update can remove (though you can get your console banned from PSN if they discover "strange packages" installed on it).

Perhaps the better question is - what is the real question?

Re:Not really.

[Jiro]

Homebrew, as the term is usually used (of course there's no authority who can define English words), typically means writing code for a console in a way that isn't controlled by the manufacturer of the console. This doesn't have to mean "breaking through console security" since old systems like the Atari 2600 or Sega Genesis didn't have any security.

Xbox Live and similar services are not homebrew. I suppose whether Android counts depends on whether you consider it a console.

And homebrew, in this sense, *is* just about over. Nobody's jailbroken a PS3, an Xbox 360, a 3DS, or a Vita in a way that an average person could reasonably use (even in a "take the system to a shop to install a modchip" sense), and there's every sign that the protection measures on those systems are actually effective.

At the point in the DS's lifespan where the 3DS is now, there were already plenty of flashcarts. At the point in the PS2's lifespan where the PS3 is now, there were modchips that worked without swapping. There is basically nothing for modern systems because of the encryption, never mind the firmware updates.

Re:Not really.

[MindlessAutomata]

Not to mention, as the article alluded to, is that the rise of tablets and phones will eat away possible would-be homebrewers since they now have portable systems to work on (tablets) where they can actually get money on. People made homebrew for the NDS and PSP because they were portable systems. Phones and tablets now eclipse those systems. Nintendo is especially in a bind because tablets and phones are very much taking over casual gaming, and I suspect we'll start to see a little more serious gaming on phones and tablets too as they are now hitting a sweet spot in terms of processing and graphical power, especially with the release of the affordable Nexus 7 that does games pretty well.

Re:Not really.

[savuporo]

>>I suppose whether Android counts depends on whether you consider it a console.
Vizio just brought the $100 android powered GoogleTV unit to market. How is that not a console ?

Of course homebrew gaming isn't over...

[Anonymous Coward]

But the odds of being a success is drastically reduced. There is a race to the bottom, cheap and simple games are now produced by large companies in bulk. Takes a real diamond in the rough to stand out these days.

if there was only a gen purpose personal computer

[Dan667]

that did not have any vendor lock-in problems ...

PCs

[Anonymous Coward]

What's so special about running code on a console? Why not just run your code on a PC, a Raspberry pi or a rooted Android phone? They all have HDMI ports and work with console controllers.

Re:PCs

[ZeroSumHappiness]

Well, all the reasons people tout consoles do apply and here are a few I don't argue against:

Consoles have more unified hardware. Excepting HDD sizes, most consoles are almost exactly the same underlying hardware from machine to machine. All Wiis should have the same graphics card, all PS3s the same CPU.

Handheld consoles have, in general, better controls and graphics hardware than Android phones.

Homebrew on consoles can be a toe dip in the water to see if you want to pay for a dev license so you can join the indie channels on that console.

In addition, consoles are mysterious hardware wrapped behind forcefields. Anyone can fire up Eclipse and make a Java program for Windows. It's a little more work to get a Pong clone on NES for me. Some find that fun.

That said, I'm a huge fan of PC gaming for a number of reasons including zero opportunity cost graphics upgrades -- when I re-up my video card old games I still play look better in many cases -- and mods. If the Ouya makes it easy to support mods then any new gaming work I do will probably target it, possibly exclusively.

Build your own hardware.

[John Hasler]

n/t

What specifically is the problem?

[JDG1980]

I don't understand what it is that people are being prevented from doing. If you want the widest possible audience for your DIY game and want to make a few bucks, go for iOS; $99 isn't that big a barrier to entry. If you don't want to pay the $99 and/or want to do one of the specific things with your game that Apple says you can't, write for Android. Or just code for a standard PC operating system. There is nothing special about modern consoles; they're basically just restricted and usually outdated computers. You can hook any modern PC up to your TV through the HDMI port.

Re:What specifically is the problem?

[Anonymous Coward]

IIRC, it's also possible to target jailbroken i-Devices if you don't want to jump through all the hoops that Apple put in the way.

What?

[stonecypher]

Between XNA, Steam, flash games, iOS, Windows Store, Kindle Store, Google Play, and the upcoming spectacular failure Ouya, the homebrew gaming scene is better than it has ever been.

Re:What?

[pushing-robot]

Yes, and that's precisely the trouble. All the big names actually like and promote indie games now, and provide their own polish to the entire experience. Because of homebrew's terrible loss of obscurity, mediocrity, and hassle, hipster douchebags have precious few places to turn in these dark times.

Frontalot explains this better than I can.

Re:What?

[spire3661]

If OUYA pushes hardware out the door and it functions , its a success. Anything after that is pure gravy. I really dont care about OUYA either way, other then id like to take advantage of the man-hours they are putting in making a viable android console. IM more interested in the detail of how they do it then if they are commercially successful.

Complexity

[KalvinB]

Older consoles were not particularly complex and used moderately common parts so you could hack them and make your own games since things were generally well documented.

These days consoles are generally far more powerful than your average PC with custom hardware (so you're not emulating it) and good luck making games without manuals, etc to tell you where to even begin coding. Without an emulator you can't code and test on your PC. Every change has to go through the process of loading it onto the actual console.

In addition, with certified channels, you don't need to go through the hassle. If you want to make games, anyone can for iOS and Android and if you have talent you can get picked up by a developer with the proper tools to work on consoles. XBox is pretty much a standard PC so you can use DirectX and if it runs on your computer there's a very good chance it will run on the XBox. MS released XNA to make XBox development accessible to people.

So again, the whole "homebrew" thing is either supported or not. If it's not supported by the console maker, it's just not worth the hassle. If you really want to get into the game programming business it doesn't matter what platform you work with. Most people now just use the PC, Android or iOS since that captures the bulk of the market and proves you value to any development company.

Homebrew hasn't gone away. The historical "hacking" aspect of that term has just been rendered mostly moot.

Re:Complexity

[Nyder]

Older consoles were not particularly complex and used moderately common parts so you could hack them and make your own games since things were generally well documented.

These days consoles are generally far more powerful than your average PC with custom hardware (so you're not emulating it) and good luck making games without manuals, etc to tell you where to even begin coding. Without an emulator you can't code and test on your PC. Every change has to go through the process of loading it onto the actual console.

In addition, with certified channels, you don't need to go through the hassle. If you want to make games, anyone can for iOS and Android and if you have talent you can get picked up by a developer with the proper tools to work on consoles. XBox is pretty much a standard PC so you can use DirectX and if it runs on your computer there's a very good chance it will run on the XBox. MS released XNA to make XBox development accessible to people.

So again, the whole "homebrew" thing is either supported or not. If it's not supported by the console maker, it's just not worth the hassle. If you really want to get into the game programming business it doesn't matter what platform you work with. Most people now just use the PC, Android or iOS since that captures the bulk of the market and proves you value to any development company.

Homebrew hasn't gone away. The historical "hacking" aspect of that term has just been rendered mostly moot.

Wow, spoken like someone who's just guessing.

The consoles are NOT more powerful then PC's, do you even read what's going on?

Programming the consoles haven't been a problem. The Wii, Xbox 360, and the PS3 all have active "homebrew" and programming tools.

Homebrew is almost NEVER supported by the console developers, we hack the system, then get it to run what we want, then release tools so others can, which in turn, usually gets more tools released.

Sure, it's not big, it's not about making money, and it's sometimes a bit primitive, but that is what makes it fun.

Re:Complexity

[jones_supa]

It would be awesome to create some open hardware gaming console with much more humble specs than the big ones (PS3 etc.), but something that one person could tackle. Make full specs available, open source OS, build a community and so on. It would be a wonderful artistic platform to create stuff on.

Re:Complexity

[mjwx]

These days consoles are generally far more powerful than your average PC with custom hardware

Wow, spoken like someone who's just guessing.

The consoles are NOT more powerful then PC's, do you even read what's going on?

This, Consoles are PC hardware that's now 6-8 years out of date. The PS3 runs an off the shelf Geforce 6 series GPU (6600 or 6800 from memory) combined with off the shelf IBM Cell processors and a pitifully small amount of RAM. It was never more powerful than a PC, not even on it's release day.

Nividia have released 10, count them 10, new GPU series since releasing the GPU being sold in PS3's today. It wasn't even cutting edge when it was released, I was running a Geforce 8800 GT in my PC on that day.

Re:Complexity

[EnglishTim]

Er... I think it's a bit much to refer to the PS3's Cell CPU as 'off-the-shelf'!

Apart from a few niche PCI development boards, the PS3 was pretty much the only thing to use the Cell.

Re:Complexity

[mjwx]

Er... I think it's a bit much to refer to the PS3's Cell CPU as 'off-the-shelf'!

Apart from a few niche PCI development boards, the PS3 was pretty much the only thing to use the Cell.

Excluding the Wii and the Xbox 360 of course, both of which use the similar Cell processors all of which are Power Architecture (as used in IBM's System P line and at the time of the PS3's release aslo used in Macs). Calling them custom built processors is a stretch at best when IBM have been selling them in other systems for years before the PS3 or Xbox 360.

These two articles should help.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_microprocessor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Architecture

Broadway is the Cell used in the Wii and Xenon in the Xbox360.

Re:Complexity

[EnglishTim]

With respect, you can't possibly suggest that the Wii and 360 are using Cell processors! The defining characteristic of the Cell are the Synergistic Processing Units, which neither the 360 or the Wii have.

As far as I remember the aspect of the Cell design that Microsoft used was the in-order execution PowerPC cores, not the SPUs. The Cell was very definitely a custom processor - just because it has a couple of PowerPC cores in it does not make it off-the-shelf!

Slashdot answer: No

[drinkypoo]

Android Handhelds and related:
http://obscurehandhelds.wordpress.com/
http://www.theverge.com/2012/6/8/3072142/power-a-moga-controller-hands-on
http://www.engadget.com/2009/12/11/odroid-the-android-gaming-handheld-now-shipping-to-android-gam/
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/04/android-gaming-tablet-looks-remarkably-similar-to-sony-psp/
http://arpandeb.com/02/2012/gadget-preview/3-handheld-android-gaming-tablet-consoles-review.html

Android dominance:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-10797_3-57448990-235/gaming-handhelds-relegated-to-niche-status-by-ios-android/
http://www.phonearena.com/news/Nintendo-claims-the-iPhone-killed-the-handheld-game-console_id29533/

other methods

[slashmydots]

Starcraft II implemented the best custom game making system in gaming history. Since SC1 ran steady for like 12 years and set records for the longest time on store shelves primarily because of user-made content, that makes sense. They're both RTS games but I made a board game out of a map :-P It's practically a programming language wrapped in a premade graphics engine so you can make any kind of game you want inside it. Many, many people have made tower defense and full blown RPGs with leveling and saving. Some are even D&D-based. So just because the big name consoles are blocking people out left and right doesn't mean people can't design their own games anymore.

Re:other methods

[WraithCube]

This might not be the best example considering the various complaints about blizzards TOS making any custom map/game their property. That and the actual ability to find custom games has been pretty terrible (thus the update to arcade scheduled to come out tomorrow).

Emulators

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure if this article is just asking about emulators of older systems on the new handhelds, or things like pspdev's psptoolchian... But my main two cents is that what homebrew gaming is right now, might live on in HTML5 apps.

Homebrew isn't over

[Nyder]

http://www.wiibrew.org/wiki/Main_Page

Wii homebrew still gets made, emulators get updated still. It's slowed down, but after we hack the Wii U, I imagine there will be a bunch of new stuff.

Stuff still gets made for the Xbox 360, the PS3.

Wouldn't even need to ask the question if you googled the various scenes.

Re:Homebrew isn't over

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a little worried about the Wii U; Nintendo seemingly got their shit together with the 3DS (it still hasn't been cracked) so chances are good that they'll have audited the shit out of the Wii U firmware.

When I homebrew...

[Antipater]

When I homebrew, I create a batch of beer. Then I put it in a keg marked "BUD LIGHT (but better!)" and sell it to bars. But Anheuser-Busch served me a C&D and now I can't do that anymore. Is this the end of homebrewing?

Re:When I homebrew...

[Anonymous Coward]

You set the bar pretty low. Piss filtered through a dirty sock is better than Bud Light.

Re:When I homebrew...

[gmhowell]

You set the bar pretty low. Piss filtered through a dirty sock is better than Bud Light.

I always figured the ACs around here were connoisseurs of piss.

Ouya, Raspberry Pi

[belgianguy]

I think the Ouya (or any of its clones that recently sprung up) would actually offer what these people were after: a platform on which they can run their own software, and even distribute it. Sure, the fact that they no longer need to break into their intended platform through a vulnerability might not make it as "edgy" as it used to be, but one could state they now should "go legit" and not fear crippling firmware updates but rather applaud modifications that enable extra possibilities.

IMO homebrewers want to develop and share. As more open-minded hardware configurations become available and are somewhat standardized, to me it would seem to be the ideal growing ground for the homebrew community. Any actual homebrewer that wants to address this assessment?

OUYA Android 4.0 based, Crowdfunded Game Console

[dryriver]

You can always develop for this thing: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ouya/ouya-a-new-kind-of-video-game-console It will be available to buy March 2013.

I don't get it

[Gravatron]

He says they lack homebrew, but I can go and get a XNA or playstation mobile license quite easily and make games. It seems what the GP has a problem with is the lack of easily accessible pirated content, which of course the platform makers try to fight.

Re:I don't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

a) No it won't.
b) If and when it does turn up it will be shit.

Re:I don't get it

[MindlessAutomata]

Homebrew and piracy are cousins, that's true, but the homebrew scene on the PSP and the NDS was far more than just piracy. The NDS's homebrew scene sucked by comparison to the PSP's but people turned the NDS into a (shitty) mp3 player, movie player, book reader, and there was even a planner app. Somebody made a good roguelike POWDER DS for it, too.

The thing is, the need for homebrew on portable systems has also gone down since phones fill these functions quite nicely. This wasn't so true during the NDS's heyday.

Homebrew computing is more important

[Anonymous Coward]

Generalized homebrew computing, hardware and software, is more important. From this, all specialized homebrew computing is dervived, including homebrew gaming.

There is a woman (yes!) who homebrews here own transistors. Her IC fab tech is probably just a handful of transistors now. Figuring out sand -> computer is the ultimate answer to corporate DRM; but we don't have to go that far. As long as you can buy components, you can build a computer. As long as you can build a computer, you can homebrew whatever software you want on it.

No, it won't be handheld in the foreseeable future... or even safe to leave plugged in unattended; but it'll exist. Our guys are out there. You can't beat us.

The most interesting homebrewer in the world

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't always homebrew, but when I do, I put it in a keg marked Dos Equis.

Stay thirsty my friends.

Re:Betteridge's Law of Headlines

[TaoPhoenix]

This is about the fourth time I've seen this in a week here and almost never before that.

But there may be a gaping flaw:

"Won't someone Think of the Children?"

Not at all

[SpiceWare]

from the Days of the Dreamcast the first breakthrough homebrew console

Say what? The Atari 2600's first homebrew came out in 95, a few years before the Dreamcast was even released.

I've got a few 2600 projects underway. One's Space Rocks, an updated version of Asteroids: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi2r8hnH9B8

another is Frantic, an updated version of Berzerk/Frenzy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRxdl2T8nlQ

ROMs for both can be found at my AtariAge blog. They can be played in Stella (cross-platform 2600 emulator) or on the real thing using a Harmony Cartridge. http://www.atariage.com/forums/blog/148-spicewares-blog/

The third (and possible fourth) project will be announced later this year.

Re:Not at all

[Blakey Rat]

"This is another Atari game I'm working on that takes advantage of the ARM processor found in the Harmony/Melody cartridge.The game logic runs on the ARM processor while the Atari's 6507 CPU updates the display and other things which the ARM does not have access to."

Cheater.

Re:Not at all

[SpiceWare]

Not at all. Co-processers inside of game cartridges have been around for a long time. David Crane of Activision created the DPC, which was used in the 2600 game Pitfall II. It allowed for enhanced graphics as well as 3-voice music. They had planned to use it in other games, but the market collapsed. http://www.gooddealgames.com/interviews/int_David_Crane.html

My prior games were stock 2600 games though - Medieval Mayhem, a remake of Warlords: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hR_B857oJo4

and Stay Frosty, one of the mini games in the holiday cartridge Stella's Stocking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vy2mO29wCU

Most NES games also used a coprocessor. The "mappers" added various abilities such as smooth scrolling, extra sound channels, improved graphics and so on. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_Management_Controller

Re:Betteridge's Law of Headlines

[Anonymous Coward]

It's time to start trolling the trollers. Headlines like this deserve such a response.

Please stop modding up Betteridge's Law

[gshegosh]

It's really getting old to have it under half of the submissions.

Re:Please stop modding up Betteridge's Law

[aiht]

The real message here is that it's getting old to have submissions in the form of a question, "Ask Slashdot" excepted. Who's the real troll here?

No.
See, it doesn't always work.

Re:Please stop modding up Betteridge's Law

[Phasma Felis]

The real message here is that it's getting old to have submissions in the form of a question, "Ask Slashdot" excepted.

That would be relevant if it wasn't mainly being referenced in Ask Slashdot threads.

Don't forget the Win 8 App Store

[DingerX]

Which will be Microsoft's demonstration of how not to lock down a platform. Expect shifting requirements, app-breaking security updates, complete incompatibility with Win 9 and the endgame: MS screwing homebrewer, developer and gamer alike when they pull the plug on their ill-conceivef monstrosity.

Re:Don't forget the Win 8 App Store

[Sir_Sri]

What monstrosity is that? Metro is just a UI, I am still able to run directx 8 code on windows 8 without any problems it looks like (including the Long long long long depreciated directplay), and yes, I tried this to see if it would break, not for any other reason.

Microsoft could certainly shoot themselves in the foot with the whole metro apps thing, but they might be able to massage all of them into fullscreen windowed mode applications and never have to think about metro again.

There's nothing particularly technically broken in Windows 8, the UI is horrid as a design, but you could have said the same things about vista.

Re:Don't forget the Win 8 App Store

[Anonymous Coward]

What monstrosity is that? Metro is just a UI, I am still able to run directx 8 code on windows 8 without any problems it looks like (including the Long long long long depreciated directplay), and yes, I tried this to see if it would break, not for any other reason.

Microsoft could certainly shoot themselves in the foot with the whole metro apps thing, but they might be able to massage all of them into fullscreen windowed mode applications and never have to think about metro again.

There's nothing particularly technically broken in Windows 8, the UI is horrid as a design, but you could have said the same things about vista.

Windows 8 on ARM will not even allow you to install apps unless Microsoft approves them. And they have already stated that they will not allow browsers to have the same functionality as Internet Explorer. So yes, Windows 8 (at least on ARM) is broken by design.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57431475-92/google-agrees-with-mozillas-windows-rt-browser-concerns/

Re:Don't forget the Win 8 App Store

[Sir_Sri]

Ya but who cares about windows on ARM? That's dead in the water from the get go. They're trying to negotiate a better deal with Intel/AMD and to get them to get their acts in gear for mobile, it's not a serious product.

Windows on ARM is a shitty gadget, if that's what people want then why not? But I don't see windows on ARM as a serious product.

Re:Don't forget the Win 8 App Store

[Anonymous Coward]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/deprecate (what you meant)

vs

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/depreciate (what you wrote)

Please learn the difference. Thank you.

Re:Don't forget the Win 8 App Store

[Sir_Sri]

I think you meant to suggest I had an extra letter in deprecated, but in the end you came across as a dick. Thanks for trying though.

Re:Don't forget the Win 8 App Store

[DingerX]

It turns out that it really helps to have a keyboard to make a post. Permit me now, with the aid of my trusty Model M, to unpack what I said above. The posting used the admittedly irritating expedient of using the title as part of the body (again, typing on a touchscreen blows). Therefore, the first sentence should read:

Don't forget the WIn 8 App store, which will be Microsoft's demonstration of how not to lock down a platform.
The point, then, is that "the whole metro apps thing" will be shooting themselves in the foot, going on MS's record in the field of app stores and product support. All you need to do is look at the magnificence of MSN Music, Plays for Sure(sic), Zune Marketplace, XBLA and the Windows Phone App stores. That's the direction the App store is going in. Legacy support is important to Windows, and one of the reasons for its success and differentiation in the marketplace (cf. OSX, aka "Firewire is so 2005!"), and is critical for its enterprise sales. Microsoft's famed legacy support does not extend towards its consumer-oriented stuff. Again, Microsoft Game Zone, Games for Windows, Games for Windows Live, Win XP's killing of non-USB HOTAS setups, Vista's problems playing audio, the list goes on.

So actually, I didn't say anything about Metro the UI (but if your UI sucks, don't expect to get many consumer sales). What I meant was that the Metro App Store, which is Microsoft's attempt to cash in on the iTunes/Google Play "locked down" app store phenomenon — and yes, like Google Play, MS is just trying to give itself a privileged position, a stamp of quality, with, no doubt, some unworkable DRM thrown in —, will be see sluggish sales, developers being exploited, until ultimately it is rebranded, cast off, and finally put out of service with no regard to the developers who tried to use the App store as their sales portal or the users who purchased apps there. You know, like every other time Microsoft has had an online store/DRM-scheme fail.

You know what they say, don't trust the Goog-lighting stranger from Redmond.

Re:Don't forget the Win 8 App Store

[Jesus_666]

they pull the plug on their ill-conceive[d] monstrosity.

This seems to be a very common last step in Microsoft product philosophy. Examples would be ActiveX, the Zune and .net as the preferred application platform.

Re:Don't forget the Win 8 App Store

[Jesus_666]

Actually, OS X still has Firewire support and new non-retina MBPs ship with a FireWire 800 port if I remember correctly. Apple's strategy is more along the lines of "let's fold everything into Thunderbolt so we can get fewer and smaller connectors", which at least makes some sense if you buy into the premise that thinner is better.

Re:Betteridge's Law of Headlines

[AngryDeuce]

It's time to start trolling the trollers.

If I wanted that I'd just go to 4chan.

Wrong question

[Anonymous Coward]

At this point, the hardware and dev tools have become advanced enough that developing "homebrew" games for a modern console is no longer significantly different from developing games for a PC or Android or iOS. If you want to make a game, you just make it for Steam. If you want to make a demo, you just make it for an old system and people run it on an emulator. If you want a portable clone of another game, you make it for Android/iOS. It's not that homebrew is "over," it's just changed to suit what makes sense on modern platforms.

Why homebrew when you can go legit

[TheSkepticalOptimist]

Homebrew was necessary in the past because there was no outlet for hobby game developer to develop on "closed" game platforms.

Today, there are SO MANY outlets for hobby game developers to create content that it is no longer necessary to "hack" a device to get your content on it.

I don't think its a question that manufacturers are finding ways to "lock down" their systems, just that they have provided alternative ways to independents to get content on those boxes.

For instance, why "hack" a homebrew game onto an iOS device? Apple opened the door for anyone to develop content for their platform, and while Apple's platform isn't as "open" as many would like, you have to either be blatantly discriminatory or outlandish to not have an application posted on iTunes. If iOS isn't open enough a platform for you, then Android welcomes all the rest of the apps Apple won't touch. That too closed for you, then fire up a website with flash/HTML 5 and build your own game online directly without much censorship.

It's kind of lame to pursue hacking a system that embraces independent development. While some companies haven't quite figured it out yet (Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo), companies like Apple, Google and Valve are new champions of relatively open hobby game platform. I know people get a rush out of doing something they are not supposed to do, but spending a lot of time and effort to break into a system when your buddy already posted, and perhaps making a profit, on a hobby game on the same system is silly.

Re:Why homebrew when you can go legit

[Blakey Rat]

"While some companies haven't quite figured it out yet (Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo),"

Seriously? Microsoft has had XNA for years-- in fact I think longer than Apple's iOS tools have been out.

Sony is slowly, slowly, slowly getting there. But you're right that Nintendo has shown zero interest.

Re:Why homebrew when you can go legit

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you missed the part where you are posting on slashdot.

ANYTHING written about Microsoft needs to point out that they suck...even when they don't.

Re:Betteridge's Law of Headlines

[Anonymous Coward]

Never heard of it.

Homebrew with JoGL

[SplashMyBandit]

I'm currently working on a homebrew modern jet combat flight simulator. For this I'm using JoGL+JOAL+JInput+JOCL. These contain embedded native libraries that work on lots of platforms (including, but not limited to Microsoft's platforms). The tools are all free/Free which means you can share everything with collaborators and clients without them having to get additional licenses. I use these technologies at the moment and apart from small variations between AMD and NVidia drivers on different platforms (which affects you no matter what technology you use) the code just works. I can move the same binary between Linux, Mac and Windows and it runs sweetly (and with very high performance since you can use the GPU as well as if you used C/C++).

For this particular genre (combat flight *simulation*) neither consoles nor phones have enough power to be viable targets. PCs (Windows and Linux) and Macs have sufficient hardware to be useful. Perhaps the next generation Playstation may have enough Video RAM to make it worthwhile as a target, but the expensive development kit, system limitations, and (most importantly) different target market (twitch gamers who don't really have an interest in simulations) make it more than 'low hanging fruit' (unlike Windows/Mac/Linux).

So, homebrew gaming is alive and well for myself and others. It's just not on consoles. Consoles are out of my field-of-view to the same extent that PCs&Macs are similarly out of the field-of-view of console/phone/tablet gamers (and the publications that serve them). I do have a PS3 but the games don't appeal to me (the PC versions of the same games are vastly superior, thanks to the vastly superior resources of a decent PC).

Re:Homebrew with JoGL

[JustNiz]

linky please!

Re:Homebrew with JoGL

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean "independent game development" or "hobby gamedev" not "homebrew" (at least not from the meaning in TFS).

Re:Homebrew with JoGL

[SplashMyBandit]

It's 'under the radar' at the moment. You can take that as me being full of b/s if you like, but as an indie/homebrew dev I'd prefer to STFU until very close to release (don't want to promise anything I can't deliver within the next half year). If you've seen or played DCS:Ka-50 or DCS:A-10C then just below that is the quality of product I'm aiming for, but multi-platform (and leveraging all those lovely Java technologies I mentioned, which have saved a huge amount of time - plus all the usual Java goodness like JAXB, JVisualVM etc etc that makes even lil' ol' me much more productive per unit time than someone working on C++).

Sorry I can't give you more info amgo, I intend to reveal a lot at the end of the year. Meanwhile, I'm mid-way through implementing Eric Bruneton and Fabrice Neyret's superb research papers in JoGL/GLSL : check the excellent videos for Proland, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AVh1x-Uqjs, and then just imagine modern multiplayer jets running around there, such as these turbosquid models I licensed:

• F/A-18 sourced from Turbosquid
• CVN-79 USS Ronald Reagan
• MiG-29K
• AV-8B Harrier

So, I hope my points about Java + JoGL + JOAL + JoCL + JInput are taken seriously, especially by homebrew/indie game devs that otherwise might be trapped by using XNA when very good free tools are available (I can get less than 1 ms rendering time/1000 fps on an Nvidia 9600 GT mobile on my 2009 MacBook Pro using OpenGL VBOs for the F/A-18 Hornet with around 50k polygons and several textures and a shader for the limb-darkened sun - so Java/JoGL is definitely fast enough for modern games).

Re:Homebrew with JoGL

[JustNiz]

Java performance being that good really surprises me.

Re:Homebrew with JoGL

[SplashMyBandit]

It shouldn't do, ever since Java 1.6.0 u10 (when they moved all of Java2D to DirectX/OpenGL hardware accelerated rendering) it has been blazing fast. What can happen is that new people don't understand not to block the Event Dispatch Thread with processing - if you avoid this then Java is very responsive as a GUI (since multi-threaded resource sharing is so much easier in Java than C++). For non-GUI processing Java has always been very fast, one of the reasons that Java is currently king of the Enterprise space (which makes it invisible to most desktop users). Coupled with the fact that JVisualVM comes as part of the standard OpenJDK/Oracle development kit (JVisualVM is a fantastic profiler that you can attach to any running JVM) there is simply no excuse for slow Java code (apart from programmers who don't know what the hell they are doing, but then there is an old saying, "You can write bad FORTRAN in any language").

If you're not a developer and been reading articles that Java is slow then you are either reading articles from a decade ago (when C++ did have an edge) or from someone who either hasn't developed on a new JVM (and is parotting the statements of uniformed people) or is new to Java development (and so makes elementary and easily avoided performance mistakes, like not knowing to profile with JVisualVM when performance is critical to the application).

As I pointed out, my experience in writing the jet combat flight simulator is that Java is more than fast enough for that purpose, has excellent development time (thanks to existing libraries and tools), is cross-platform, and is completely free/Free (which means I can share code with others knowing they can build it without having to steal or pay for expensive licenses [or slightly restrictive ones, I'm looking at you XNA]).

Ouya

[Anonymous Coward]

Go to kickstarter and look at the "Ouya". Basically, it's an Android console but it's WIDE open. It has had a huge backing and is looking to release next year. I think homebrew will make a nice comeback. It has a bunch of other cool things about it. (Look below for the haters).

Sad decline

[gauauu]

While I agree with other posters that "homebrew" carries on but just looks different on different platforms, it is disappointing to see homebrew communities for older platforms fade out of existence. I was quite involved with the GBA/DS homebrew scene, but that has mostly disappeared by now. It's a ghost town over at gbaDev these days.

There will always (hopefully!) be somewhere for hobbiest and independent game developers to show off, but homebrew console gaming as it has been defined during the last 10 years is certainly declining.

I do miss it though -- there was a certain excitement about getting something running on your GBA that isn't quite there when I write code for modern portable devices. (Although I also wonder if part of that is nostalgia).

Re:Sad decline

[MindlessAutomata]

What did you do on the NDS? I enjoyed a lot of the NDS homebrew, maybe I used something you made. (assuming you mean you made stuff on it).

I have to say homebrew on portable devices is also largely declining since phones and tablets are becoming much better gaming platforms that also serve a lot extra functions. the NDS was an awkward and bulky device to use to play books, movies, and music, but some people, including me, used it that way because we didn't own cell phones that could. Now, nearly everyone does... I suspect Nintendo is very afraid of tablets and the direction cell phones are going.

Re:Sad decline

[gauauu]

I made Anguna, a zelda-ish adventure game for DS and GBA.

Oh wow, I haven't looked at that website in awhile. It's lying about the iPhone port -- I gave up on that when apple changed their developer terms one-too-many times during development.

uber homebrew... Uzebox!

[scharkalvin]

You want homebrew? Now THIS http://belogic.com/uzebox/index.asp is homebrew!

Actually, it probably does ...

[brokeninside]

... a censor is a person who is tasked with reviewing material in order to decide "officially" whether or not it is appropriate. /. moderators fill _precisely_ that purpose. The whole point of having moderators is to mark up the most worthy comments and mark down the most unworthy.

Re:Actually, it probably does ...

[icebraining]

No, a censor is someone who is tasked etc in order to suppress the content if deemed inappropriate. The mods here can't suppress the comments, just tag them with a score. It's the reader who may or may not suppress them by choosing his/her own threshold level.

Its the graphics stupid

[physburn]

Writing a computer game hasn't really got much more difficult, but the standard of graphics is constantly improving, without an easy way to produce the stacks of graphics needed by a modern computer game, the home brew developer is stuck produce games that are further and further behind the curve of professional game development.

---

Retrogames Feed @ Feed Distiller

What are you smoking?

[Anonymous Coward]

What are you smoking. The Xbox and the Apple hardware are perfectly capable of homebrew without hacking the damn things.

The problem, as others may point out is that there is too much crap in the API which makes Windows development a huge mess. Linux and OS X aren't in any different of a boat.

First you need drivers
then a HAL
then a Windowing system
and a rendering compositor
all before you draw a damn thing.

And if you're doing game development in a browser, you add the browser as another abstraction layer.

OUYA Should fill this niche

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a $100 and is developed on android and will be open. I expect plenty of homebrewers and hobbyists to get into the homebrew console market using OUYA. There won't be a need to hack like other locked down consoles, or ridiculous hardware and software startup costs, or monthly fees.

No.

[Anonymous Coward]

One Homebrew is starting to get some helping hands the xbox comuity games being a good setup. Minimal up front costs and it becomes a pool to find new tallet for the big boys. Two andriod and to a lesser degree IOS are great places for home brew. If the Ouya flys (and its looking more and more likley) it will bring it to the TV.

but

[JustNiz]

I'm still coding Amiga demos you insensitive clod.

No

[Anonymous Coward]

Besides http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge's_Law_of_Headlines, I'm still making games on my own. In fact, I was still making my own games while I worked on a game studio.

Some Friendly RIAA Advice

[CuteSteveJobs]

The major consoles have so many firmware updates that the days of Homebrew seem to be numbered, is there a way back for the Homebrew Community?

I have a friend at the RIAA who was sympathetic when I explained your problems: an old business model that lacks technical relevance or customer demand. He said you should respond by suing your customers.

I am not sure how this will help and to be honest neither did he, but he said that was the advice the RIAA's lawyers gave them and he's sure it's good advice because they further advise him it should start working any day now.

Dumpster

[Osgeld]

Given that I got a completely functioning computer (2GHz 2GB) out of the dumpster for free... I fail to see what your point is, computers have been dirt DIRT cheap since the mid 90's ... it may not be the most awesome machine ever made, but its still a functioning computer, and I bet its a lot faster than a 700MHz ARM

Re:Dumpster

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Do you really expect kids to dumpster dive? I'm pretty sure parents wouldn't like a school to encourage kids to do that.
2. Got a free 2GHz 2GB RAM? Lucky you, I never saw this kind of stuff for free, even now. We can't have kids relying on luck to get a programmable device.
3. Raspberry Pi is designed to be portable between home and school, and I doubt that a desktop tower will be light enough for that.
4. If things break inside that tower, good luck troubleshoting which part broke and how to fix that at the age of 11.
5. Old stuff just isn't "cool". You won't re-ignite the "programmer within" of the general population by telling them to get 5 year old machines. If that was the case, everyone and there grandma would know Python inside out. It's clearly NOT the case. Raspberry Pi has the potential to become "cool", and therefore popular, hopefully putting the 2010s into the history books as a technological Renassaince.

Semantics, schemantics

[brokeninside]

The censors of the Catholic Church do not _suppress_ books, they simply put them on a list of books that Catholics can decide not to read.

Re:Semantics, schemantics

[Jurily]

Ever since they're not allowed to burn both the books and the author, yes.

Starcraft 2 had the best tools? Are you serious??

[sgtrock]

Ever heard of, oh, let me think: Threewave's original Capture the Flag, which spawned dozens of imitators just on Quake's engine alone, let alone the countless variations on I don't know how many different engines since?

No? How about the original Team Fortress? TF2 seems to be making Valve a buck or two these days, eh?

Or, how about Rocket Arena, a game mod with built-in maps, a matching system for 1v1, 2v2, and 4v4, complete with scoring system that carried across map changes?

You want something even more off the beaten path? How about QRally, a road racing game? Or Quess, a chess game?

All of those mods, plus hundreds if not thousands of others, were all built using id software's Quake engine and their modding tools. There's been nothing quite like the Quake modding scene since. Lots of imitators, but I don't think any of them ever managed both the depth and breadth of what that modding community did with the tools that id software supplied.

Depends on what homebrew means...

[stripes]

The last few years we have seen Microsoft, Nintendo, Sony and Apple all bring out means to thwart homebrew development. The app store on both Android and iOS have taken many homebrew devs over to try and break the market.

Well I guess it depends on your definition of home-brew, but I think it is hard to make a game for iOS or Android that wouldn't be let into the store (unless you say crash on launch, or are noticed grabbing all the user's contacts without permission). It is in fact far simpler then it was to get your own games onto the Dreamcast! You get the real dev kit for very cheep (cheeper then the hardware you are developing for), and while the hardware to host the development on isn't free, it isn't exactly expensive (hardware dev systems for the 16bit era ran to $30k, now it is just a Mac mini, or pretty much any old PC for Android).

On the other hand if homebrew has to mean "we figured out how to get onto the hardware ourselves and made our own psudo dev kit", yes Android and iOS are hurting that effort because who really wants to go to all that bother when they could just get down to making a game?

idiot

[Tom]

Are you retarded or have you been living under a rock for the past two decades?

I've been a gamer all my life, and I've been writing computer games for around 25 years. I've been having an eye on the games industry/scene for about as long.

There were two great times for small indy developers - one was the early years, when graphics and sound where so limited and people didn't expect that much and a one-person project or a small team could bring out a full game that rivaled everything else on the market. Mostly, think C64 times. Think computer games magazines printing the hexcodes of entire (small) games that you could type down and run on your computer. Those times.

The other time is now. Since a couple years, hobbyists have tools at their disposal that make it possible to compete again. You can get Unity3D for free or for just over a thousand Euros. Other engines are affordable, too. You have Cheetah or Blender or other 3D software for your models, and free or affordable software for textures, graphics, sound effects, music. And you have a vast Internet where you can find fee or affordable assets, with access being made ever easier by the likes of the Unity Asset Store. And finally, integration between all of these components has finally reached a level where things can realistically be accomplished. Because sure you could buy 3D models from various sites for 10+ years - but format differences and a whole bundle of unknowns made actually using them in your projects so much work that it really wasn't worth it.
And finally, thanks to Apple, Steam and others you have a shot at distribution even as a small-time developer. Because having a website is only one part of the equation.

Today is a great time to be around when you're a small game developer. "Homebrewn is dead" - are you fucking kidding me, or are you pushing an agenda around that is so dead and wrong, it has a funny smell all around it?

Look at MonoGame

[Maxmin]

MonoGame and its mobile cousins allow you to target numerous desktop and mobile platforms with a single codebase. CSharp is a pretty good language, and XNA plus OpenGL and Open AL give you much versatility in exploiting hardware features to obtain performance.

I work for a major game company. I've developed for the commercial desktop, mobile and console platforms.

For hitting many platforms in one effort, MonoGame is pretty good. It's probably not so well documented as others, and it's got bugs, but it's open source and worth a look. If i were to develop a gaming startup, MonoGame is at the top of my list for trials and experiments to prove out whether it can or can't do the job. From what i've done with it so far, it looks very promising.

Re:Betteridge's Law of Headlines

[AmiMoJo]

The question asks if someone "will not" Think of the Children, so the answer "no" implies that someone will.

Will people stop modding up Betteridge's Law?

[AmiMoJo]

Will people please stop using headlines and summaries that pose questions?

Hmm... I wonder...

[Anonymous Coward]

http://psl1ght.com/ - "PSL1GHT is a lightweight PlayStation 3 homebrew SDK that uses the open-source PlayStation 3 toolchains to compile user applications that will run from the XMB menu (GameOS homebrew)."

http://wiibrew.org/wiki/Homebrew_development - "Homebrew application development for the Wii is both fun and challenging. If you want to develop homebrew for the Wii, you will need some tools."

The Xbox360 one has two options: XNA Framework ($100/year, restrictive half-ass managed API), or a console hacking session to allow it to run unsigned code ($5 to $30 one time payment for parts or kit required to hack the console, native execution). Haved worked under both routes, I prefer the latter as it's much less restrictive; the XNA route sucks with the piss poor floating point performance and forced decisions that really should be in the programmers hands and not the APIs.

That's a different argument

[brokeninside]

Unless you're arguing that suppression needs to be backed by coercive force in order to be counted as suppression, that the Catholic Church no longer is capable of wielding coercive force is neither here nor there. But the term `suppression' is frequently (and correctly) used in situations where there is no force at hand, for example by the dictates of an authority even when no force is present or by a party (Google, for instance) agreeing to hide certain terms.