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Surfacestations: NOAA Has Overestimated Land Surface Temperature Trends

New submitter BMOC writes "Anthony Watts of Surfacestations project (crowdsourced research) has finally yielded some discussion worthy results (PDF). He uses a siting classification system developed by Michel Leroy for Meteofrance in 1999 that was improved in 2010 to quantify the effect of heat sinks and sources within the thermometer viewshed by calculation of the area- weighted and distance-weighted impact of biasing elements to calculate both raw and gridded 30 year trends for each surveyed station, using temperature data from USHCNv2. His initial claims are that station siting is impacting the surface temperature record significantly, and NOAA adjustments are exacerbating that problem, not helping. Whether you agree with his results or not, recognize that this method of research is modern and worth your participation in the review. Poke holes in publicly sourced and presented research all you can, that's what makes this method useful."

474 comments

  1. Not Published = Trash by Rei · · Score: 1, Informative

    Who the heck would write a whole Slashdot article about un-peer-reviewed results? Geez...

    --
    "... Sean Hannity, whose surgery to remove those bolts from his neck was apparently successful, ..."
    1. Re:Not Published = Trash by chrb · · Score: 4, Informative
      The Surfacestations web site was set up with the explicit aim of disproving global warming by showing that the observed warming in the temperature record is caused by poorly sited measuring stations. And now their results show exactly that. I will reserve judgement until if/when the paper passes review, but I suspect this may be a case of confirmation bias. From the paper:

      Comparisons demonstrate that NOAA adjustment processes fail to adjust poorly sited stations downward to match the well sited stations, but actually adjusts the well sited stations upwards to match the poorly sited stations. Well sited rural stations show a warming nearly three times greater after USHCNv2 adjustments are applied.

      So they are claiming that a simple mistake has been made that has the effect of overestimated warming by three times, and that everyone doing this research previously has made this same mistake, and that, despite all of the arguments surrounding climate science and the instrumental temperature record, nobody noticed it yet? It is certainly not impossible, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

    2. Re:Not Published = Trash by narcc · · Score: 0

      Published or Unpublished is not a reliable indicator of quality or reliability. Google Andrew Wakefield for a great example of published rubbish.

      On the other side, you'll find that there is much more to publishing than the quality of the research. Publishing is quite political, and journals are often reluctant to publish controversial findings. Further, larger / more prestigious journals are extraordinarily reluctant to publish a paper if the author hasn't already published enough in the past, again, regardless of the papers actual quality. Yes, that's actually the reason they'll give for rejecting a paper!

      So fuck you and your bullshit reasons for rejecting the articles claims. Be honest and let the findings stand or fall on their own merit, not your opinion of the author or how he decided to make his findings available.

    3. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

      Of course, that only applies to one side of the debate.

    4. Re:Not Published = Trash by Troed · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The BEST study that made headlines all over the globe, including here on Slashdot just a few days ago, isn't peer reviewed yet either.

      Both should thus be treated with the normal caveats for pre-prints.

    5. Re:Not Published = Trash by Surt · · Score: 5, Informative

      Nope. Applies to both sides. Guess which side has huge amounts of peer reviewed evidence.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    6. Re:Not Published = Trash by dbIII · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The "other side" of this "debate" already has been collecting quite extraordinary results for decades over the entire planet, and had their own real debate about it before writing a report and putting it on President Johnson's desk.
      The current pro and anti-science debate is really just truth versus advertising. Advertising can look very convincing is enough money is put in to do so but it falls over in contact with reality.

    7. Re:Not Published = Trash by chrb · · Score: 5, Informative

      extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Of course, that only applies to one side of the debate.

      Which claim is extraordinary? The claim that CO2 is a greenhouse gas is not extraordinary. The claim that fossil fuels contain CO2 which is released into the atmosphere when burnt is not extraordinary. The claim that increasing atmospheric greenhouse gas levels in sufficient quantities will lead to an increased global mean temperature is not extraordinary. These claims have been known and investigated since the industrial revolution (Fourier in 1824 and Arrhenius in 1896) and are widely accepted.

    8. Re:Not Published = Trash by Rei · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Published or Unpublished is not a reliable indicator of quality or reliability. Google Andrew Wakefield for a great example of published rubbish.

      Am I understanding you correctly here? "Because the foundation of the world's scientific knowledge has failed at times before, its worthless and we should trust random things written by people with no credentials that no experts in the field have reviewed as much as everything else"?

      I just wrote on a napkin, "The world is flat". Clearly that's as good as peer-reviewed science because of Andrew Wakefield.

      --
      "... Sean Hannity, whose surgery to remove those bolts from his neck was apparently successful, ..."
    9. Re:Not Published = Trash by sFurbo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Publishing is quite political, and journals are often reluctant to publish controversial findings.

      Journals like controversial findings, for the same reason that newspapers up-play their headlines: it attracts attention. Furthermore, a shoddy paper with a controversial conclusion will often spur a slew of debate and comments, each citing the original paper, and thus raising the journals impact factor.

      Further, larger / more prestigious journals are extraordinarily reluctant to publish a paper if the author hasn't already published enough in the past, again, regardless of the papers actual quality.

      This would be relevant if the paper had been disregarded for not being in a prestigious journal. It wasn't, it was disregarded for not being in any journal. There is always a journal that will publish the paper, it is just a matter of trying until you find it and/or are lucky with the reviewers.

      Be honest and let the findings stand or fall on their own merit, not your opinion of the author or how he decided to make his findings available.

      The way the research is published often raises some question: If it is good enough to pass peer review, why hasn't it been tried? There is a reason why "science by press conference" is a derogative.

    10. Re:Not Published = Trash by a_n_d_e_r_s · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, well given that the report just showed basically the same trend as IPCC reports, the report was not really the story. The real story was that we had a big non-believer on AGW had a change of heart when he did the research himself and came to the same conclusion as IPCC.

      It basically said that if you dont trust IPCC reports - do the research yourself and you will get the same results.

      --
      Just saying it like it are.
    11. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Problem there is that one side controls the "peers."

    12. Re:Not Published = Trash by Purpendicular · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A few comments:

      1 - He has published it, on the web, otherwise you would not be able to read it.
      2 - Publishing something in a peer reviewed journal does not make something inherently better, or worse.

      Peer review is not some kind of mystical spell that you cast on results to make them "scientific". Peer review simply means that peers, people working in the same fields as you, have gone over the results and agreed with them. Typically, two, to the author anonymous reviewers, go over the paper, after an editor has had a look to see that it is fit for the journal. You might be interested to know that neither Nature, nor Science practices such peer reviews. The editors of those journals accept or reject the papers themselves.

      However, in any scientific field, there are only around 150 peers, Dunbar's number. When a field gets larger, it splits into several sub-disciplins. The big problem with the peer review system, both for results, and, very importantly for grant applications, is that all peers are in the same boat. So only results that generally agree with the field will be accepted. If a young brilliant scientist wants to publish results that show that the whole field is a dead loss, that there is no chance it will cure cancer and the like, he is unlikely to be published. He will not receive any grants for a proposal that sets out to prove that all of his peers should change profession, because the field is a dead end.

      To fix the problems with peer review, we need competition. Independent funding from many different sources, and preferably none at all from governments. Terence Kealey discusses in a couple of books the empirical fact that for civilian research, for every dollar that the government provides, 1.25 dollars of private money disappears.

    13. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I believe you glossed over most of his statement. I believe he's referring to the claim (spoken or otherwise) that everybody who ever studied this stuff was looking at the data wrong.

    14. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The fact that you try to reduce such a complicated system to a string of single dimensional cause and effect statements and presume that this is the truth is truely extraordinary,

    15. Re:Not Published = Trash by KGIII · · Score: 0

      Is the reverse true? Do you blindly accept the statements from the guys in lab coats even knowing that they've been wrong time and time again?

      (No, I'm not advocating religion or disbelief in science. I do advocate learning and thinking for yourself though.)

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    16. Re:Not Published = Trash by Troed · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The real story was that we had a big non-believer on AGW had a change of heart when he did the research himself and came to the same conclusion as IPCC.

      That part has me confused. He's never been a non-believer in AGW.

      (and I'm not sure there is a conclusion to talk about yet since the paper isn't peer reviewed. It also seems his former paper was rejected in peer review which doesn't bode well)

    17. Re:Not Published = Trash by ghostdoc · · Score: 1

      Patent clerk. No credentials. 'nuff said

      --
      Business/App ideas are like arseholes: everyone's got one, they're mostly shit, but very rarely they contain a diamond
    18. Re:Not Published = Trash by aurispector · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      And that is the heart of the problem. "Global warming" has become so politically charged that it is impossible for any climate scientist to publish contradicting data.

      All because al gore wanted a way to make money by taxing your air.

      --
      I have mod points. The reign of terror begins now.
    19. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wasn't there an article just the other day about BEST's Muller team, whose recent publicity is about exactly ... un-peered-reviewed results?

    20. Re:Not Published = Trash by Da_Biz · · Score: 1

      I agree: this article is complete crap. Nice job, Slashdot (slow clap).

    21. Re:Not Published = Trash by na1led · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      There is an overwhelming amount of evidence that surface temperatures are rising. Scientist knows it, Military knows it, farmers and fishermen know it. I'm surprised people are still trying to disprove things that are in plain sight for everyone to see.

      --
      -- By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out.
    22. Re:Not Published = Trash by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 4, Informative

      No credentials like, say, a PhD in physics, multiple peer-reviewed publications in Annalen der Physik? You are not seriously comparing Watts to Einstein, no?

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    23. Re:Not Published = Trash by TapeCutter · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yep and here's NOAA's extrodinary evidence debunking Watts' extraordinary claims. It's a blindingly simple statistical experiment that you can do yourself. Here's the youtube video about it that Watt's tried to take down with dubious DCMA notices. It's not a total loss though, it's true he has collected the best database on the condition of US weather stations (which NOAA used to debunk his claims in the pdf). Such a database sounds like it might be useful for improving the stations but the pdf above list several reasons as to why it might not be so useful.

      An intellectually honest person (ie: an amateur scientist), would take those sort of criticisms seriously and either rebut them or withdraw the claim. Watts' behavior is little better than a youtube troll, I suspect he gets a buzz out of the attention.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    24. Re:Not Published = Trash by Phelan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Does this mean that for balance we have to start including YECs, flat earthers, etc as reviewers in studies? Cause that's definitely how the scientific method works.

      --
      "Nimis exaltatus rex sedet in vertice - caveat ruinam!"
    25. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Controls how? If you mean the vast majority of climate scientists have reviewed the evidence and come to certain conclusions about global warming, you're probably right.

      How that is unfair or a problem is lost on me.

    26. Re:Not Published = Trash by fast+turtle · · Score: 2

      I'm sorry but this is America where they don't want you thinking for yourself because you wont consume, consume, consume and spend, spend, spend. Slaves are so much better and cheaper then real workers.

      --
      Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
    27. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      How can non peer reviewed talking points from 2009 debunk a non peer reviewed paper from 2012, building upon peer reviewed methods from 2010?

      I'm not sure you understand the scientific method.

    28. Re:Not Published = Trash by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Problem there is that one side controls the "peers."

      That's just stupid. Most qualified scientists agree So we can't trust them to review each other's work . If we applied that sort of thinking everywhere there would be no accepted concensus on basic arithmetic.

    29. Re:Not Published = Trash by MacGyver2210 · · Score: 1

      He uses a siting classification system developed by Michel Leroy for Meteofrance in 1999 that was improved in 2010 to quantify the effect of heat sinks and sources within the thermometer viewshed by calculation of the area- weighted and distance-weighted impact of biasing elements to calculate both raw and gridded 30 year trends for each surveyed station

      What the hell did I just read?

      I swear there are parts from the Corporate Bullshit Generator going on in there...

      --
      If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits
    30. Re:Not Published = Trash by khallow · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Well, do you have some reason to thing they shouldn't? It is news after all. As usual, I find the real problem to be the Slashdot summary which frankly is high quality flamebait.

    31. Re:Not Published = Trash by tbannist · · Score: 4, Funny

      The mathematicians are suppressing my brilliant papers proving that 2 + 2 = Chocolate. Help, I'm being repressed!

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    32. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is an overwhelming amount of evidence, gleaned from your post, that you are a idiot who clings blindly to his prejudices.

      But I suppose we should reserve judgement until we actually meet you.....

    33. Re:Not Published = Trash by sycodon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I seem to recall that there was a big article and discussion here about the BEST study...before it was peer reviewed.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    34. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      A response of "Oh yeah...we handled that." is not a debunking of anything. It's is a blithe dismissal by people who can't be bothered to look at something.

      Read the fucking paper before you go spewing from your pie hole...but I guess you are too much of a "intellectually honest person" to be bothered with actually looking at things that contradict your world view.

    35. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      However, the claim that human emissions of CO2 surpass all the volcanic activity on Earth evidently is extraordinary. The claim that CO2 levels now are geologically high is extraordinarily false (we've had way higher CO2 levels during the Jurassic, for example. And much warmer temperatures, with global averages above 25 degrees. Biodiversity endured.). Actually, there's clear evidence that we're on a cool period; global temperatures are highly correlated with the formation and breaking of supercontinents, and we're between supercontinents).

      There should be more geologists in climate sciences. Their long-term view should be considered over the "OMFG we've had 10 warm years we're burning the planet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" alarmism. There are various cycles of global temperatures, ranging from hundreds of millions of years to tens of thousands. A short term (~100yr) variation is nothing.

    36. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      the problem is "which side is taking liberties with the truth", as in politics, there are shades of truth. They aren't called lies. But if you have to" correct" your data to make your side appear truthful, is that the truth of science now? If you can take the data collected, unmodified, and prove your point, is that the truth? Is only one side right? Or do both sides streach the truth?
      I remember the Kennedy/Johnson era, I was in school then, and they didn't call it global warming then, they were talking of past 2000 the coming Ice age. What changed. Did the world change? The earths orbit was changing then as now, We move in and out based on science, and above and below based on the same science. That changes the amounts of available sunlight, that changes the available weather patterns, that changes the "weather" on the earth. Man puts up a building that changes the weather flow in that area, man changes the crops available to the local arrea by farming, etc, etc etc. And man makes rules that affect/effect the weather, remember halons, the cheapest cooling agent supposed ozone connection, the cooling factor used to be 30 degrees for the tempreture? now its 20 degrees with the new improved enviromentally cooling systems, that run longer supplying less cool air for subsystems,
      Read the paper with an open mind. Look at his math, look at his study as it stands, he dosen't call for man made warming, he don't call for a tax or to take away some scolarship, or remove one's degrees of learning, he calls for understanding how data results have been changed by a few "scientist" to argue their point, That he can replicate their datapoints by doing a addition to the data. He tells you that the results of the station is true before the data shifts, and that the after the data shift, that the data is spurous, and that the records, from the past, have been modified. He don't say who did the changes, or why they did the changes, or that people have died because of the changes. He tells you the truth is out there, look for it.

    37. Re:Not Published = Trash by chrb · · Score: 4, Informative

      Not really, since the majority of global warming skeptics seem to base their belief on one of those single dimensional causes:

      Belief: The temperature is not increasing. Reasoning: The temperature record must be wrong, the instruments are faulty or the temperature data gathered incorrectly.

      Belief: The temperature is not increasing. Reasoning: The temperature record shows no warming since 1998 (aka "global warming stopped in 1998").

      Belief: CO2 is not a greenhouse gas. Reasoning: the temperature on Venus (96.5% atmospheric CO2) shows little variation.

      Belief: CO2 is not a greenhouse gas. Reasoning: Anthony Watts did a video of an experiment with CO2 which showed no warming effect.

      Belief: Increased CO2 won't contribute to the greenhouse effect. Reasoning: Other planets have atmospheric temperature variations, and the CO2 levels in the atmosphere of those planets isn't changing.

      Belief: Burning fossil fuels does not release much CO2. Reasoning: volcanoes release CO2.

      There are many variations of these reasons to not accept global warming, but in the end it comes down to either denying that the temperature is increasing, denying that CO2 is a greenhouse gas, denying that increasing amounts of a greenhouse gas will have any effect on the temperature, or denying that burning fossil fuels increases the amount of atmospheric CO2.

      (There is another approach - the "we just don't know" crowd. Well, sorry, but that is not how science works, if you want to overturn the existing model then you have to propose a model that better explains the observed data. You can't just wave your hands in the air and say "your model is wrong but I have no idea why" or "your model is wrong because Obama is a socialist and I don't like the United Nations".)

    38. Re:Not Published = Trash by clarkholmes · · Score: 5, Informative

      Is the reverse true? Do you blindly accept the statements from the guys in lab coats even knowing that they've been wrong time and time again?

      (No, I'm not advocating religion or disbelief in science. I do advocate learning and thinking for yourself though.)

      Hrm. The structure of your sentence suggests these "guys in lab coats" are wrong more often than not and this it is an accepted fact. But as modern science is founded on "guys in lab coats" doing research, and as a beneficiary of their work, I can plainly see that this is not the case. My phone works, my medical presciption works, etc. And of course, nobody blindly accepts anything in science. Peer review, and other "guys in lab coats" recreating the original experiments and publishing their results. You post as a whole seems an supportable attempt to instill doubt in science, despite your otherwise reasonable final sentence.

    39. Re:Not Published = Trash by trout007 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think the purpose of this site is to look at how the original data is collected and check the quality of it. I read through the paper and all they did was re-evaluate the sites to a new standard Leroy (2010). The previous standard looked just at how close heat sources/sinks were from the thermometer. The new standard takes into account not only the distance but area of the heat source/sink. This makes sense to me. It also brings up questions about the roles that shade and vegetation will have as something that needs more study.

      This isn't about a large scale heat island effect. It is about a much more local one. If you had a thermometer in a field for 100 years and then built an asphalt parking lot around it you will have an increase in temperature even if it is still in a rural area.

      Also it brings up a problem with a sensor that was installed at airports and used for automated data gathering.

      I think the importance of this study lies more with how those in the field receive it. A real scientist would be interested if someone pointed out an error in their data collection. A politically motivated individual would brush it off without a second thought saying it isn't relevant. Time will tell.

      --
      I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
    40. Re:Not Published = Trash by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 2

      The fact that your not a scientist and yet feel compelled to comment on research is truly amazing. Bonus points for commenting as a coward.

    41. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed. Just like the article about Muller's "BEST" results only the other day, that I don't think I saw you complaining about!

    42. Re:Not Published = Trash by spidercoz · · Score: 0

      Ah, ad hominem, the last resort of the weak arguer. The evidence is there, if you choose not to see it, that's your own prejudice.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Evelyn Beatrice Hall, re Voltaire
    43. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't quite get how massive quantities of greenhouse gas released in the atmosphere would mysteriously lose their greenhouse effect potential at some point. How exactly is chrb's post extraordinary in its claims? Please explain.

    44. Re:Not Published = Trash by JoeRobe · · Score: 2

      In fact Science and Nature do peer-review their articles. The first step is a decision by the editor about whether or not it fits with the journal/has the scope of a Science/Nature article. That's usually the hard part to get by (I've heard 10% of articles get by this stage). Then it goes out for review, where at least two, sometimes three referees review it. This is true for short form ("reports") and long form ("research articles") papers.

      --
      The best way to predict the future is to invent it.
    45. Re:Not Published = Trash by spidercoz · · Score: 1

      those studies weren't peer-reviewed

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Evelyn Beatrice Hall, re Voltaire
    46. Re:Not Published = Trash by LoyalOpposition · · Score: 3, Informative

      extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

      No. Extraordinary claims require the same evidence as any other claim. There isn't a branch in the scientific method that's taken only when the claim is extraordinary. If you disagree, then think about it this way: would you allow your worst enemy to decide which claims are extraordinary and which ones aren't?

      ~Loyal

      Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

      --
      I aim to misbehave.
    47. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't see how this is an example of ad hominem, i.e., attack on the person.

      This post criticised a practice ("Still trying to disprove things"). You can argue whether "Still trying to disprove things" is worthy or not, but
      criticising it is NOT a personal attack.

    48. Re:Not Published = Trash by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Most people ignore the obvious anyway. CO2 and factory output making the world hotter is preposterous.

      Think about the natural order. In the natural order, the sun shines on the earth. Trees capture sunlight, bind that energy into sugar. Much of the sunlight is reflected back to space, some is sunk into the ocean and eventually radiates out. Sugar is consumed by plants and animals (yes, plants respire at night for energy--they store sugar to feed themselves). Metabolism is combustion, burning sugar: oxygen combines with CH2O to form CO2 and H2O, releasing heat.

      All of this impacts surface temperature. Heat comes from the sun, heat leaves the planet by reflection and radiation. Some heat is absorbed and radiated, keeping the planet at a stable base temperature based on absorption and radiation rate and on the average intensity of sunlight over some short time. Plants capturing sunlight remove heat actively by binding the energy from the sun into chemical compounds rather than absorbing it and radiating warmth. Animals and plants metabolizing such energy-storing chemicals release that heat.

      Pave the world in blacktop.

      More heat is absorbed into the ground, then radiated. Temperature locally increases.

      Drive cars on the road

      Have you ever been near a car engine? Riding behind a truck in the winter on my bicycle is awesome. It's so warm. The thing's a god damn oven. They need active cooling with fans and water pumps, plus the oil pan is a radiator and the oil is a cooling fluid. Plus the exhaust vents much of the hot air, although allowing it to expand lets it cool dramatically (it's compressed in the cylinder--initially it's at atmospheric pressure, then it's burned such that even without physical compression by the piston it's now a compressed gas; turbochargers utilize waste heat in that way, since the heat increases pressure and the pressure difference gives potential just like a voltage drop, and there's a turbine in between). Engines are fucking hot we are running thousands of furnaces all over the god damn planet all the time.

      Planes. Trucks. Cars. Factories. Power plants. Solar power, seriously, you collect sunlight and turn it into electricity which is always 100% lost as heat (electric heating is 100% perfect efficiency 100% of the time--just if your heating element is low resistance you get more of that heat at the battery terminal than in your actual heater...). Solar energy causes global warming, we collect sunlight that would otherwise be (partially) reflected back to space and burn it.

      The world is so hot because everything on this planet is on fire. The only things we do that get cold are heat pumps, sucking heat from a hot area to a more hot area without actually eliminating any of the heat, and that process requires energy input and releases additional heat. Do you know what would happen if we moved entirely to "clean energy" and stopped outputting "greenhouse gasses" and everything ran on nuclear and solar power and we used 10 times as much energy because it's "clean" and abundant? We'd burn the planet to a crisp. You know what would happen if we used wind and tidal energy instead? We'd slow the tides and mess with the weather (energy has to come from somewhere, and in this hypothetical we're pulling a LOT of energy out of the wind). Geothermal? There's no way we could freeze the inside of the planet--it's ridiculous, think about how much hot mass is inside versus just on the crust; we'd bake the planet until the surface flowed and the mountains sagged into pits of molten rock.

      Notice Above I did say "used 10 times as much energy". If we make a car 10 times as efficient, that car uses 1/10 as much energy to get the same acceleration and maintain the same speed. If we make the car 10 times as efficient and then put 100 times as many on the road, we use 10 times as much energy. We can only use so much energy before we burn to death.

    49. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      for poor rhetoric and disingenuous arguments, i look to slashdot
      these days. this whole thread is rubbish, and i don't even think
      the point can be freed from the muck. this is a symptom of /.
      becoming a political, not a technical site. but i'll try.

      a ph.d or other credential does not imply infallibility; lack of
      credential does not imply fallibility. credentials, while not without
      substance, do not bear directly on the argument at hand. i would
      think that attacks on credibility based solely on credentials (and
      not the argument) would fall into various categories of false argument.

    50. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The BEST study that made headlines all over the globe, including here on Slashdot just a few days ago, isn't peer reviewed yet either.

      Both should thus be treated with the normal caveats for pre-prints.

      Except that if you look a little at Watts' site, you'll find a link to a peer reviewer of the BEST study who explains why it should not be published. Not published yet is different from not worthy of publication.

    51. Re:Not Published = Trash by tbannist · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That's an interesting hypothesis but there's no evidence to support it either. Has "Global warming" become so politically charged that it is impossible for any descenting scientist to publish their rejected papers too? Because while I've often seen this claim of bias in publishing, there doesn't seem to any evidence to support it.

      Just think about it, if there really were all kinds of papers rejected for political reasons, I'd think that a group like the Heartland Institute would channel some of their money into publishing their own "heretical" journal. I think the reason the Heartland Insitute hasn't done that, is because there's not enough rejected papers to make the endeavor worthwhile, let alone enough high-quality papers. They seem to use up their entire supply of dissenting opinions at their NIPCC conventions.

      I suspect this argument is a manifestation of the False consensus effect. The rationale is: it's inconceivable that no scientists agree with my position, so therefore someone must be silencing them. It allows a person to maintain self-confidence in the face of evidence that says 97% of the scientists involved in research in this area agree with the basic premises of global warming (and 2% are unsure).

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    52. Re:Not Published = Trash by Rob+Riggs · · Score: 1

      The mathematicians are suppressing my brilliant papers proving that 2 + 2 = Chocolate. Help, I'm being repressed!

      As a fellow 4 denier, I welcome this ground-breaking research. The important question now is just "how dark is the chocolate?" And "is it tasty enough to get peer reviewed?"

      --
      the growth in cynicism and rebellion has not been without cause
    53. Re:Not Published = Trash by MrNiceguy_KS · · Score: 1

      Wish my mod points hadn't expired a couple of days ago.

      --
      Redundancy is good And also good.
    54. Re:Not Published = Trash by tmosley · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is good. Now, as the next part of the exercise, can you find the "one dimensional" thinking among many who subscribe to AGW? I would suggest you add in the implications of that logic as well. Let me get the ball rolling:

      Belief: Increased CO2 will cause runaway global warming. Reasoning: Venus is 95+% CO2. Implication: continued output of CO2 will take us to a tipping point situation that will result in $badthings (some alarmists go so far as to claim human extinction, more level headed people worry about rising sea levels and changing weather patterns).

      Belief: CO2 emissions can be decreased through application of carbon taxes. Reasoning: You get less of what you tax. Implication: imposition of a tax reduces carbon emission, but raises prices of commodity goods, the governments that collect the tax money then spend it on goods that are produced using fossil fuels, meaning no net decrease in CO2 emissions, more poverty, and already impoverished people will have less food.

      Belief: Global warming is bad for the poor, therefore not global warming is good for the poor. Reasoning: the opposite of a bad thing is a good thing. Implication: Silliness. The opposite of drowning is dehydration. Neither is good, obviously. In this case, it is bad for people to be forced to move, but it is arguably much worse for them to starve.

      Your list is good, because it contains testable predictions. Clearly, mankind puts out a great deal more CO2 than volcanoes, so that is not a valid argument against AGW. However, other things come out of volcanoes, and as far as greenhouse gases go, CO2 is the ultimate lightweight. You can only get weaker effects from diatomic and mono-atomic gases. I would be interested to see what else comes out of volcanoes in quantity.

    55. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So we're supposed to believe the guy going against the scientific consesus, because someone else going against the scientific consensus was shown to be a fraud? Andrew Wakefield is the poster boy for why the average person should trust the scientific consensus.

    56. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Calling someone an idiot with no substance in the post as a rebuttal = ad hominem. But you are probably responding to the wrong post.

    57. Re:Not Published = Trash by tmosley · · Score: 1

      http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/sep/05/publish-perish-peer-review-science

      Sorry, what were you saying about being "right" more often than wrong? Peer review is a system, and systems can be corrupted or overwhelmed. That is exactly what has happened throughout the field. Tiny, closed off sub specialties are especially vulnerable to this effect.

    58. Re:Not Published = Trash by BMOC · · Score: 1

      Bledri, for one.

      --
      I swear they give me mod points to shut me up.
    59. Re:Not Published = Trash by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's just stupid. Most qualified scientists agree So we can't trust them to review each other's work . If we applied that sort of thinking everywhere there would be no accepted concensus on basic arithmetic.

      It depends on which side of the debate they are on. If they are AGW proponents, then it's a consensus of experts. If they are deniers, then it is confirmation bias.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    60. Re:Not Published = Trash by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Shades of truth? Advertising strikes again.

    61. Re:Not Published = Trash by BMOC · · Score: 1

      In what way? I explained what Watts claims to have done, I explained what he's claiming, and then I explained that this method of crowdsourcing your data collection, and writing/presenting your work to the world first is a new method of doing research that is worth your participation. What part of that was flamebait?

      --
      I swear they give me mod points to shut me up.
    62. Re:Not Published = Trash by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      I don't quite get how massive quantities of greenhouse gas released in the atmosphere would mysteriously lose their greenhouse effect potential at some point. How exactly is chrb's post extraordinary in its claims? Please explain.

      Define "massive quantities", and then fix your understanding of the actual claims. The claim is NOT that an increase in CO2 (the least effective of all known greenhouse gasses) will cause an increase in warming, the claim is that an increase in CO2 concentrations from about 380 PPM to 600 PPM will cause a "tipping effect" and exponential feedback loop causing catastrophically accelerated global warming.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    63. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No. No, no, no. No, no, no, no, no. No!

      Peer review doesn't 'put the weight of authority behind' the results, and it *does* serve a scientific function. The purpose of peer review is to (attempt to) validate that the methodology used in the experiment/study doesn't have any significant flaws overlooked (or ignored) by the person/team publishing the paper under review.

      The only sociological function of peer review is to minimize the amount of flawed science being published. (I say minimize because it is possible for bad/flawed science to slip through peer review. The larger the pool of well-informed reviewers, the less likely this is to happen.)

    64. Re:Not Published = Trash by Pax681 · · Score: 1

      There is an overwhelming amount of evidence that surface temperatures are rising. Scientist knows it, Military knows it, farmers and fishermen know it. I'm surprised people are still trying to disprove things that are in plain sight for everyone to see.

      ok then, explain to me why the weather is so shite and cold here in Scotland? :P
      it's 31st July.. it's 17c(62.6 F), in Edinburgh , the festivals are about to start and there are Americans,Japanese and a whole host of foreign types here wrapped up like arctic explorers and eating the hottest spiciest food available just to give the illusion of heat!!!...
      mind you, the curry houses, kebab shops and Mexican restaurants are doing a roaring trade :P

    65. Re:Not Published = Trash by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 3

      That's for linking to some idiotic talking-point BS from 3 years ago, without reading the paper or addressing anything in it.

      I think they generally refer to people that behave that way as "shill".

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    66. Re:Not Published = Trash by radtea · · Score: 5, Informative

      The claim that increasing atmospheric greenhouse gas levels in sufficient quantities will lead to an increased global mean temperature is not extraordinary

      This is the controversial claim in the eyes of anyone who understands thermodynamics: is the doubling of CO2 sufficient to increase atmospheric heat content to a degree that will materially affect climate?

      "Mean temperature" is a thermodynamically meaningless quantity, and in a mixed material like the atmosphere, which contains a variable amount of water, increased heat content could actually be associated with a decrease in temperature. The response of the climate system is not a one-dimensional "worse/better" thing, which is the way people who don't understand thermodynamics always report it.

      There is general agreement that the CO2 humans have added to the atmosphere in the past 200 years has resulted in 1.6 W/m**2 additional power being trapped at the Earth's surface, comparable to the Sun's brightness increasing by about 0.1% or a decrease in the Earth's mean orbital radius of 0.06% (a quarter of the distance to the Moon, to give a sense of scale.)

      Recent work on tree-ring density (published last week in a reputable journal) indicates orbital forcings in the past 2000 years that are up to four times the current anthropogenic forcing, and yet the polar bears somehow survived. This work could be wrong, but the anthropogenic effect is so small an input that many people find the claims that it will result in dramatic, run-away climatic instabilities implausible given it is very likely that there have been comparably-sized changes in climate forcings many times over the past ten thousand years due to centuries-long changes in ocean circulation, orbital dynamics, vegetation type and distribution, etc.

      Therefore, the claim that an additional climate forcing on the order of 0.1% will be more than a somewhat costly inconvenience is controversial, and as a computational physicist I am depressingly aware of how fragile and complex climate models are. They are far, far more approximate than the financial models that produced the collapse of 2008.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    67. Re:Not Published = Trash by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      There is an overwhelming amount of evidence that surface temperatures are rising. Scientist knows it, Military knows it, farmers and fishermen know it. I'm surprised people are still trying to disprove things that are in plain sight for everyone to see.

      Try at LEAST reading the summary of the paper, even if you can't be bothered to try to understand it. The paper does not attempt to refute temperature increases, it only points out errors in the US surface temperature as reported by NOAA.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    68. Re:Not Published = Trash by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      And of course, nobody blindly accepts anything in science.

      I think this statement is rather easily debunked.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    69. Re:Not Published = Trash by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      Journals like controversial findings, for the same reason that newspapers up-play their headlines: it attracts attention. Furthermore, a shoddy paper with a controversial conclusion will often spur a slew of debate and comments, each citing the original paper, and thus raising the journals impact factor.

      That's true generally, but journals focused on climate science are the rather obvious exception, and has been for some time.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    70. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anon-Admin · · Score: 1

      I have a DS, I am a peer reviewer on SlashDot.

      I have reviewed both articles and agree with them.

      There, they are now peer reviewed. Does it add any more validity to the?

    71. Re:Not Published = Trash by BMOC · · Score: 3, Informative

      Certainly it's trying to expose local effects around the sensors that have not been accounted for, yes. Clearly, even the well-sited stations have a positive trend (+0.15 C/Decade), so this paper is not arguing that temperature is going down.

      There are many potential problems if you cannot trust your surface temperature record. Consider the problem of putting temperature sensors in space. You can certainly image surface infrared emission from space. However, with an atmosphere like we have that's like trying to image and accurately determine the surface temperature of a human body through blankets. In order to get the temperature accurate, you have to calibrate against something you know. The surface temperature record almost certainly provided a check/balance for the satellites since they began telling us temperature. If you note, John Christy (UAH guy) is on Watt's paper as a co-author. That man knows this study impacts his work, he was smart to get involved. Unfortunately, most of the land surface temperature records have nothing to say about 70% of the earths surface simply because water covers most of the planet. So the limits of these networks should be clear, they're devices that tell us the temperature where we live, they don't tell us about Earth so much.

      If the UHI affect is real and significant, that's actually good to know. If humans can control local temperature, it's important to know this and quantify just how much we are controlling the local temperature. It could affect everything from climate to building materials used in the future. It means we can begin to lessen the heat waves that rock our urban centers, that saves lives. It also means we can try to adjust our city planning such that we lower air-conditioning energy use when by minimizing how much heat surrounds the habitable zones in cities. Also, Earth has a recent history of dropping into ice-ages for many thousands of years, so if humans can affect the local temperature with technology, our survival may depend on that ability.

      However, I don't see Watt's paper as talking about UHI as much as the localized temperature around the sensors.

      The politicization of the subject only favors the dirty politicians, it gives them flags to wave to get re-elected regardless of which side they are on. It's best to keep that aspect out of it.

      --
      I swear they give me mod points to shut me up.
    72. Re:Not Published = Trash by emarkp · · Score: 1

      Precisely. Watts explicitly followed Muller's BEST model. He has pre-publication papers up for download and has submitted to peer review.

      If you dismiss Watts, you have to dismiss BEST as well.

      Furthermore, Muller answered Maddow by saying BEST has not addressed surface stations at all. So it's quite possible that both Muller and Watts are right.

    73. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      "Belief: Increased CO2 will cause runaway global warming."

      Not believed.

      "Belief: CO2 emissions can be decreased through application of carbon taxes"

      That isn't the science.

      "Belief: Global warming is bad for the poor, therefore not global warming is good for the poor"

      The therefore does not follow from the premise. And isn't the science.

      Your list is silly.

    74. Re:Not Published = Trash by riverat1 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Sorry but the total heat released by chemical combustion (and nuclear power) is so miniscule compared to the energy coming from the Sun that it can be ignored in any first order calculations. A 2008 study by Mark Flanner finds the total waste heat produced by human activities amounts to 0.028 W/m^2 while the total forcing from additional greenhouse gases we've emitted is 2.9 W/m^2, over 100 times as much. Waste heat is just not an issue.

    75. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But Watts has Power!

    76. Re:Not Published = Trash by clarkholmes · · Score: 1

      That first article you link to is especially interesting.. a statistical look at how often papers are false. It's a dense read (for me, not being well versed in math used therein) but does seem somewhat self-contradictory in it's recomendations. How can "Better powered evidence, e.g., large studies or low-bias meta-analyses" "Improve the situation" if those studies and analyses will be, as the title of the article suggest, mostly false? Garbage in is still garbage in, even if there is more of it. I suspect this paper was intended to "stir the pot", so to speak, (Which, based on the comments it received, it did.) and hardly supports the conclusion that the peer review system is corrupt or overwhelmed.

      And the "publish or perish" is a well discussed topic even here in the threads of Slashdot. Yes, there are pressures that cause scientists to do dishonest things. They are, after all, still people. However, as I noted before, the aggregate results the people lab coats generate seem nonetheless to work. (e.g. satellites, medicine, skyscrapers, etc.) So someone in a lab coat, somewhere, somehow, is doing things right enough to make the fantastic things we use everyday come in existence.

    77. Re:Not Published = Trash by ghostdoc · · Score: 2

      He was awarded his PhD in the same year that he published his paper on Special Relativity, previous to that he'd had a single peer-reviewed paper published (4 years earlier).

      So yes, no credentials to speak of. He was definitely not an established figure in the field for such groundbreaking work, and not even employed in academia or doing grant-based research.

      Arguments from authority are a logical fallacy. Comparing Watts to Einstein is irrelevant. However, saying that someone is not qualified to have an opinion or publish a paper worth looking at because they're not an established figure in the field is as wrong for Watts as it was for Einstein.

      --
      Business/App ideas are like arseholes: everyone's got one, they're mostly shit, but very rarely they contain a diamond
    78. Re:Not Published = Trash by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      What makes you think the claim that human emissions of CO2 surpass volcanic emissions is extraordinary? They're not that hard to measure, especially at the order of magnitude level.

    79. Re:Not Published = Trash by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      It's a blindingly simple statistical experiment that you can do yourself.

      I don't see any blindingly simple experiment in that link. Which experiment are you referring to?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    80. Re:Not Published = Trash by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      Einstein, however, did not have an esteemed career as batshit crazy opinion whore for sale to the highest better, as does Watts. It has nothing to do with him not being established, him not being established has everything to do with his history of outright lies and unscientific behaviour and outright slander of the whole climate science community.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    81. Re:Not Published = Trash by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 2

      What are you talking about? Here are Muller's papers

      This paper, in addition to three of the papers posted online in October 2011, have been revised based on input received through the peer review process. A fifth paper has been provisionally accepted for publication,

      Provisional acceptance is a post peer review stage associated with getting the paper properly typeset,choosing which graphics to print in color, signing copyright transfer fees and other minutia that don't bear on the scientific value of the work.

    82. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You obviously never read the paper. It's quite clear that Watt has proved that the climate has increased in temperature.

    83. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BEST was peer reviewed and rejected. The newest study continues with the same errors and will be rejected.

    84. Re:Not Published = Trash by Surt · · Score: 1

      But your opinion (can't publish contradicting data) is contradicted by the facts. Contrary data, what little of it there is, is published regularly. It's the one in a thousand case that deniers pounce on and then trumpet as controversy.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    85. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All your premises are incorrect. Watt has shown that the temperature is increasing. He also believes that CO2 is responsible for a % of the warming and that humans are responsible for this increase, not volcanoes.

    86. Re:Not Published = Trash by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 1

      Consider me a supporter of your delicious theory. Now, what do I need 2 pairs of to validate your claims?

      --
      I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
    87. Re:Not Published = Trash by micahraleigh · · Score: 1, Interesting

      "the 'we just don't know' crowd. Well, sorry, but that is not how science works" 1) The empiricist David Hume would beg to differ. 2) Even if that isn't how science works, it's how voting works and voters in the US don't believe AGW exists because of all the shenanigans (i.e. hockey stick graph, East Anglia emails, etc).

    88. Re:Not Published = Trash by spidercoz · · Score: 1

      *ahem*

      WOOSH

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Evelyn Beatrice Hall, re Voltaire
    89. Re:Not Published = Trash by Go+Canucks · · Score: 1

      You are incorrect. The Surfacestation research was never set up to disprove global warming only that the statistically methods used over estimated warming.Watt's research has confirmed that the earth is warming.

    90. Re:Not Published = Trash by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Can you please publish that paper? I REALLY want to see it. For um, scientific reasons, of course.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    91. Re:Not Published = Trash by BergZ · · Score: 1

      I found that study interesting due to the Koch Foundation connection.
      I am often told (on Slashdot climate threads) that scientists will intentionally bias their results to keep that sweet, sweet, grant money flowing. Since the Koch Foundation is known to be exceptionally biased against the consensus position on the topic of climate change one would have to assume that it would be in the financial self-interest of the research group to produce the results that the Koch Foundation wants to hear.
      Since the research group's actual results support the consensus position that the Earth is warming and mankind's activities are, at least partly, responsible it would seem that the evidence supporting the scientific theory of global climate change must be undeniable.

      --
      Warning: This sig is not thread safe. For more information see Slashdot's sig policy.
    92. Re:Not Published = Trash by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      and had their own real debate about it before writing a report and putting it on President Johnson's desk.

      I've always said, as soon as the paper is on the desk of President Johnson, the science is settled. All that other work that scientists have been doing for the past several decades, correcting errors, discovering new things......that's all been 'advertising'. Right?

      The current pro and anti-science debate is really just truth versus advertising.

      The current paper in question is attempting to be part of science. And it might actually contribute to science in a useful way.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    93. Re:Not Published = Trash by irenaeous · · Score: 2

      That part has me confused. He's never been a non-believer in AGW.

      This is misleading almost to an extreme. Muller was well known for being skeptical of the research. He in particular attacked the "Hockey Stick" (See his article from 2004: Global Warming Bombshell. His criticisms were such that he was universally regarded as a skeptic prior to BEST (see Quotes by Richard Muller, and his skepticism regarding the research was consistent. Note that Watts initially supported BEST, and that work was financed in part by the Koch brothers. Do you think that would be the case if Muller was regarded as being a "warmist"? Your popular technology article appears convincing until you read the linked sources. From those it is clear that your are right sort of, Muller never was a AGW denier per se, but the quotes read in context show that he was highly skeptical of the research which is why he was universally categorized as being one of the AGW skeptics prior to 2010. The point is that he was open minded which is why he changed his mind.

    94. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      I recall there were some gatekeeping efforts documented in the climategate emails.

    95. Re:Not Published = Trash by babblefrog · · Score: 2

      ... the claim is that an increase in CO2 concentrations from about 380 PPM to 600 PPM will cause a "tipping effect" and exponential feedback loop causing catastrophically accelerated global warming.

      Is that the scientific consensus? Or your straw man?

    96. Re:Not Published = Trash by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 0

      Yeah and a study done in 2001 found out that airplane exhaust actually causes a global cooling effect. Next.

    97. Re:Not Published = Trash by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      Satellites don't measure temperature with infrared sensors. They measure microwave emissions of oxygen from various layers of the atmosphere which is a proxy of temperature. They don't measure temperature at the surface at all, just the lower troposphere. That said surface temperature trends and satellite temperature trends are within each others error bars so you can't really say that they are significantly different.

    98. Re:Not Published = Trash by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      Bah. Everybody knows that Watts is the solitary genius among all the moron "climate scientists."
      Who is that Einstein guy, anyway?

    99. Re:Not Published = Trash by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      So they are claiming that a simple mistake has been made that has the effect of overestimated warming by three times, and that everyone doing this research previously has made this same mistake, and that, despite all of the arguments surrounding climate science and the instrumental temperature record, nobody noticed it yet? It is certainly not impossible, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

      I'm not sure what is unbelievable about this. Remember the ,a href=http://www.dailytech.com/Blogger+finds+Y2K+bug+in+NASA+Climate+Data/article8383.htm >y2k bug that had nothing to do with the year 2000 except for showing a point where something was obviously wrong? It went unnoticed for better then 15 years.

      It is entirely possible that mistakes happen. It is also entirely possible that mistakes aren't obvious for long lengths of time.

    100. Re:Not Published = Trash by BMOC · · Score: 1

      Oh, that's better then. They would still need calibration though. That would also not jive with the surface temperature measurements taken of the ocean, such as how they attempt to measure the ENSO. Perhaps they're looking for microwave from H2O?

      --
      I swear they give me mod points to shut me up.
    101. Re:Not Published = Trash by Dixie_Flatline · · Score: 1

      Did you know that there's not actually much of a difference between the way newborn boys look at faces and blocks and the way newborn girls do?

      There was a single study, quite a long time ago, with fairly bad scientific controls (i.e., the researchers were the ones administering the experiment, knew the outcome that they were predicting, etc.) that still holds sway to this day that claims that newborn boys look at objects like mobiles fractionally longer than faces, and that baby girls are the opposite, proving a difference between males and females at the 'nature' level when it comes to interaction in the world. That boys will naturally be better with tools and math and girls will be better with people and relationships, all other things being equal.

      It turns out that peer reviewed papers debunking this have come up several times, but nobody cares. Because the assumption has to be that boys and girls are the same, a paper that maintains the status quo is insufficiently interesting to see widespread release. As a result, people keep citing the flawed study and completely pass the new study by (mainly in the mainstream media rather than in the field itself).

      Controversy sells. Weird 'discoveries' and statistical correlations sell (e.g., the ratio of a man's index finger to ring finger correlates to aggression; I'm not making that stupid study up http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4314209.stm)

      I agree that published work can be garbage; we see it all the time, and I just cited a good example of it. But to ignore hundreds of iterations on the data both through peer review AND experimental reproduction is just putting your head in the sand.

    102. Re:Not Published = Trash by sycodon · · Score: 1

      That's nice. But completely irrelevant.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    103. Re:Not Published = Trash by budgenator · · Score: 1

      "Global warming" has become so politically charged that it is impossible for any climate scientist to publish contradicting data.

      Not so much anymore, more and more non-Hockey-Team papers are getting published, and in increasingly respected journals. The other week the TV weatherman after saying we had set a high temperature record, said that in 1936 we set 6 records in a row and to top it off, an article made the front page of /. that linked to WUWT! Times and attitudes are changing, people are increasingly seeing that AGW arguments are circular arguments, next thing you know the Australians are going to repeal the Vordermort Tax.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    104. Re:Not Published = Trash by Troed · · Score: 1

      Well, to be fair, since his own research gets rejected in peer review I think he should keep being skeptical ;)

    105. Re:Not Published = Trash by bdabautcb · · Score: 1

      It would be like a crocodile wiiiiiith a baby water buffalo jury!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      --
      Koalas. They're telepathic. Plus, they control the weather. -Margaret
    106. Re:Not Published = Trash by budgenator · · Score: 2

      Belief: CO2 is not a greenhouse gas. Reasoning: Anthony Watts did a video of an experiment with CO2 which showed no warming effect.

      That was actually an attempt to replicate Al Gore's fraudulent demonstration.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    107. Re:Not Published = Trash by narcc · · Score: 1

      I just wrote on a napkin, "The world is flat". Clearly that's as good as peer-reviewed science because of Andrew Wakefield.

      You've missed the point. The point was, at risk of repeating myself, that it is irrational to reject the claims made in the article because it wasn't published in a peer-reviewed journal. The correlate, of course, is that it is equally irrational to accept the claims made in an article solely on the basis of it being published in a peer-reviewed journal.

      You don't have to accept the claims, but they need to stand or fall on their own merits, not those of the author or how he chose to make his findings public. That is, the claims aren't invalid just because of where they were published. That doesn't make any sense, yet it is precisely what the parent is claiming.

    108. Re:Not Published = Trash by stubob · · Score: 1

      I don't know how to compare Watts to Einsteins. Now, Watts to Newtons, on the other hand...

      --
      Planning to be moderated ± 1: Bad Pun.
    109. Re:Not Published = Trash by ilguido · · Score: 1

      So we should reject the only solution to a millenium prize problem because it was published as an un-peer-reviewed result?

    110. Re:Not Published = Trash by narcc · · Score: 1

      I agree that published work can be garbage; we see it all the time, and I just cited a good example of it. But to ignore hundreds of iterations on the data both through peer review AND experimental reproduction is just putting your head in the sand.

      Who said you should ignoring the literature? I certainly didn't imply that. My object was to the parents assertion, as summarized in the post title, "Not Published = Trash" which is quite clearly nonsense.

      Though I should point out, as you hint at, that journals seem quite reluctant to publish replications, despite the importance of replication to the process of science!

      I don't mean to dismiss publishing, it's very important! Though it's also important to understand the problems with publishing as it is today, if for no other reason than to avoid nonsense claims like those made by the parent.

    111. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, they're not hard to measure. That's exactly why claiming that human activity releases more CO2 to the atmosphere than volcanos do (averaging over a century or so) is an extraordinary claim. I'm not even counting other greenhouse gases, such as methane.

    112. Re:Not Published = Trash by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Whats wrong with shades of the truth. In the 1992 presidential election Bill Clinton won with less then half of the country's registered voters voting for him. He also won by one of the largest margin of votes in a long time. This trend repeated itself in 1996 with even larger margins. It is both true to say that the majority of the country did not vote for Clinton to be president and Clinton won the presidency by one of the largest amount of votes in a while (except Reagan Carter).

      That's just one example.

    113. Re:Not Published = Trash by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      If no one but scientists can comment on science, then perhaps scientists should keep their science in the lab and stop making political masturbation's about them.

      Anytime anything is brought to a political conclusion, anyone with or without a political interest is more then legit in commenting on it. This could be science, your religious beliefs, your favorite color or anything else in your imagination. If you do not like it, then stop pushing it into the political arena

    114. Re:Not Published = Trash by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      ... the claim is that an increase in CO2 concentrations from about 380 PPM to 600 PPM will cause a "tipping effect" and exponential feedback loop causing catastrophically accelerated global warming.

      Is that the scientific consensus? Or your straw man?

      Are you really that ignorant of the basic claims of the IPCC and the climate models? You could argue that my numbers are off, but they are in the less than 400 PPM range, which far from "massive quantities" represents atmospheric increases of less than 0.05%. Of course there's not much talk about the tipping point these days, since NASA data indicated that more energy was being released from the atmosphere than the models were using.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    115. Re:Not Published = Trash by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      How about evaluating claims based on the content of the claims and not on the associations or connections of people involved or how they disseminate the information?

      Seriously, I just wrote on a cocktail napkin that the world is round. Does that mean my claim is invalid? And to the point of round verses flat or even the heliocentric orbit, This wasn't peer reviewed in the sense you are insisting it needs to be now. In fact, when it was discovered, it was self publishing much like putting it on a website (had the wen existed at the time) which circulated the concept and other read and built on. There was no journals to submit to at the time, just your ability to communicate thoughts to others which generally meant paying a printer to print books or booklets and passing them out. Nicolaus Copernicus certainly took this route.

    116. Re:Not Published = Trash by FitForTheSun · · Score: 1

      There is no "one side". Fame and riches await the first person who can convince informed scientists that AGW theory is wrong. So far, nobody has gotten that fame and riches; so far, it's just a bunch of nincompoops shilling for oil companies, able to convince some Fox News viewers, and few others.

    117. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Clearly you missed the emails from Jones and his pals about preventing papers from being published.

    118. Re:Not Published = Trash by Dixie_Flatline · · Score: 1

      I re-read your post, and you're right, you didn't imply that. I was getting a different vibe from your post than I think you intended, so I apologise for that.

      Not published = Trash is a statement whose truth can't really accurately be assessed, but the reality is that it's more likely than not. Publishing is the best we can do right now. Every method suffers from bias, so the only hope is to try to publish more and get more qualified eyes on the research. The trend to open up scientific papers to the public if they're publicly funded in places like the UK will probably help matters along.

    119. Re:Not Published = Trash by Rei · · Score: 1

      I don't think you know what the word "extraordinary" means. If it's easy to do, then it's "ordinary", not "extraordinary".

      --
      "... Sean Hannity, whose surgery to remove those bolts from his neck was apparently successful, ..."
    120. Re:Not Published = Trash by owski · · Score: 2

      but I confirmed global warming by stepping the fuck outside today. Yesterday. Day before. Week before. Month before.

      Are you a new super hero? Accurately-determines-global-temperature-trends-by-exiting-building-on-subsequent-days-man? That's quite the super power you have.

      Seen the weather ripping your, or your neighbor's towns and or houses apart recently? Yeah.

      Seen the scientific results of those who study severe weather treads? Yeah, didn't think so.

    121. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you know, to some degree, he has a point.

      What percentage of deniers do you think actually spend their time outside? Most of the ones I know are people with office jobs, computer jobs, people who spend the majority of their time inside. Their limit of experience is 'papers published' or 'looking out a window'. Its not like they're directly economically affected by what they're talking about.

      Its not 'because you choose not to see it', its 'because you don't know what you're looking at, you don't think anything is wrong'.

    122. Re:Not Published = Trash by budgenator · · Score: 1

      I don't quite get how massive quantities of greenhouse gas released in the atmosphere would mysteriously lose their greenhouse effect potential at some point. How exactly is chrb's post extraordinary in its claims? Please explain.

      It's not that the CO2 "mysteriously lose their greenhouse effect potential at some point", it's more that the effect of adding more CO2 diminishes logarithmically. Increasing CO2 from 195PPM to our current 390 PPM, increases the temperature 1.2K, now increasing to 780PPM warms another 1.2K; so it took adding 195 PPM to get the first 1.2K increase but 390 to get the next 1.2K increase! The next degree will take us up to a whooping 1560PPM!

      Without climate feedbacks, a doubling in atmospheric carbon dioxide (CO2) concentration would result in a global average temperature increase of around 1.2C. Water vapor amount and clouds are probably the most important global climate feedbacks. Historical information and global climate models indicate a climate sensitivity of 1.5 to 4.5C, with a best estimate of 3C. This is an amplification of the carbon dioxide forcing by a factor of 2.5. Some studies suggest a lower climate sensitivity, but other studies indicate a sensitivity above this range. Partly because of the difficulty in modeling the cloud feedback, the true climate sensitivity remains uncertain. Runaway climate change

      CO2 is at best is a bit player in climate change, water is the real driver of both weather and climate, but it's a pretty hard sell to show water as the destroyer of the eco-system.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    123. Re:Not Published = Trash by FitForTheSun · · Score: 2

      A short term (~100yr) variation is nothing.

      That's funny because I always figured the opposite was true. A million-year cycle is slow enough for life to evolve. A 100 year cycle is not. The quick change from colder to hotter is the problem.

    124. Re:Not Published = Trash by narcc · · Score: 1

      Indeed, I figure that's why my post was modded down. We're very likely in complete agreement, though I understand the visceral reaction to anything that appears superficially as anti-science. I'm certainly not anti-science, though I do get frustrated sometimes with the nonsense from the science cheerleaders. Of course, offering anything like a correction is immediately assumed to be anti-science in the hostile environment that is the internet!

      You may have seen this yourself, where an anti-AGW advocate is (rightly) verbally beaten in the winter for offering some record temperatures as evidence for their side, but nothing but praise for the pro-AGW advocate in the summer when they offer the same argument. Pointing out that the argument is bad no matter which position it supports to the poster offering it in the summer gets you labeled as an anti-science nut.

      Not published = Trash is a statement whose truth can't really accurately be assessed

      Here I disagree. I'd say that we can assess the validity of the statement, at least in one direction. Here, we need only a single counter example. That is, an unpublished study that is not trash. I'm sure you've already thought of a few. When I offered the Wakefield example (the wrong direction), I mistakenly thought that !A->B<=>A->!B, an easy error to make as !A<->B<=>A<->!B. (I won't try to defend that error as I think it's pretty clear what the parent meant, regardless of their choice of operator.)

    125. Re:Not Published = Trash by FitForTheSun · · Score: 1

      I think you either don't understand that statement, or don't understand science. I suspect the former; let me explain. A researcher who wants to propose a new theory which overturns a previously widely accepted theory must demonstrate extraordinary evidence, which would mean a large number of high-quality data points, large enough and high quality enough to overcome all the evidence which led to the acceptance of the previous theory.

      For instance, quantum mechanics is an extraordinary claim. Nobody would believe it unless it came with a metric shit-ton of evidence, enough to overcome the entire body of scientific observations up to that point. And lo! it does come with that evidence.

      The point is that evidence is not all equally valid, which is what you seem to imply. No, you can't overturn everything we know about the universe with "the same evidence as" a theory which is consistent with everything we know about the universe. I'm sure you know all of this. Perhaps you were trying to make a rhetorical point or something, but you didn't make it well.

    126. Re:Not Published = Trash by FitForTheSun · · Score: 1

      So, then, you concur that Einstein was a journal-published doctor of the science of physics. And you agree that Watts is not journal-published and is not a doctor, nor a master, nor even a bachelor of... well according to this not of anything.

      I'm not sure how you jump from "journal-published PhD" to "no credentials", can you explain that a little better? You somehow equate the credentials of a "non-established but journal-published PhD" with "non-established hack with no degree whatsoever". You know who else is a non-established hack with no degree? A few billion people who I also don't listen to when it comes to complicated science.

      Watts is certainly qualified to have an opinion. Opinions are fine. It's his statements of fact which are wrong. Watts is a dum-dum spouting dum-dum nonsense and trying to heckle real scientists. It's a free country and he's allowed to do that, and people like you are allowed to have the "opinion" that he's a real smart guy, but please forgive the rest of us for disagreeing.

    127. Re:Not Published = Trash by budgenator · · Score: 1

      I just wrote on a napkin, "The world is flat". Clearly that's as good as peer-reviewed science because of Andrew Wakefield.

      No, you also need a considerable hidden financial incentive for the world to be found flat, to be as good as Wakefield.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    128. Re:Not Published = Trash by Carnildo · · Score: 1

      There is another approach - the "we just don't know" crowd. Well, sorry, but that is not how science works, if you want to overturn the existing model then you have to propose a model that better explains the observed data.

      You don't need a better model to overturn the existing model, you just need to show that the existing model is making incorrect predictions. If, for example, the existing model predicts increased tropical evaporation leading to increased polar snowfall and ice cap growth, you can overturn the model simply by showing that the polar ice caps are shrinking.

      --
      "They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
    129. Re:Not Published = Trash by khallow · · Score: 1

      Whether you agree with his results or not, recognize that this method of research is modern and worth your participation in the review. Poke holes in publicly sourced and presented research all you can, that's what makes this method useful.

      And if you disagree, then of course, you're not going to recognize the above. And probably tell the world such.

    130. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the UHI affect is real and significant, that's actually good to know.

      It is real and significant. That's why the IPCC, NASA, and everyone else who deals with temperature datasets adjusts for the UHI.

      Watts here is saying their adjustments are inaccurate. He might be correct.

    131. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It would be stupid if scientists were working to develop consensus based on cogent argumentation and discourse. But lately, there has been a swing toward making climate change a matter of dogma, or "settled science" rather than a matter for discourse. In my estimation it harms science writ large, as well as efforts to reach public consensus (e.g. consensus beyond the scientific community) about climate change and appropriate courses of action.

      With regard to my statement about climate science approaching the level of dogma, I submit the reasoning presented by Nobel winning physicist Ivar Giaever in his resignation from the American Physical society. He could no longer tolerate the position of the APS that the evidence for global warming was "incontrovertible" and could not be questioned, while in comparison it is even reasonable to discuss whether the mass of a proton changes over time.

      http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/214181/20110915/ivar-giaever-global-warming-climate-change-al-gore-ipcc-hoax-dissent-nobel-prize-winner-physicist-re.htm

      If scientific societies drive their membership through dogmatic positions such as "incontrovertible evidence," then it is no wonder that people balk at the value of peer review. Scientific societies should generally abstain from taking positions about specific scientific matters, as if they were lobbying organizations or political action committees, and instead leave such positions to the reasoning of their individual members. If they did so, many arguments presented with regard to the credibility of the scientific community in the matter of global warming would be rendered moot. But by refusing to do so, they have given such arguments not proof, but at least grounds for establishing cogency.

    132. Re:Not Published = Trash by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      How can non peer reviewed talking points from 2009 debunk a non peer reviewed paper from 2012, building upon peer reviewed methods from 2010?

      Apart from the fact that science is not a neat linear progression, all of them are discussing Watts' claims. Once a scientist's claim has been falsified (2009) said scientist normally goes back to the drawing board, not Watts however, no-sireee, he was right the first time and everyone else is wrong so he re-presents the same claim (2012).

      I'm not sure you understand the scientific method.

      I'm not sure you understand the discussion.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    133. Re:Not Published = Trash by BMOC · · Score: 1

      Disagreement is invited and not unwelcome in publicly discussed research. Disagreement on whether or not public discussion on publicly funded research is worth your participation is a free speech argument. Do you truly wish to discuss freedom of speech? Is the invitation to poke holes in public research done like this truly flamebait?

      --
      I swear they give me mod points to shut me up.
    134. Re:Not Published = Trash by marklark · · Score: 1

      But the pool of specialists in an area tend to be small and somewhat in-bred. The more specialized, the more closely related the group will be.

      There is the way it should be (you seem to understand it) and there's the way that it is...

    135. Re:Not Published = Trash by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      What's your point?

    136. Re:Not Published = Trash by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      You lost me there. But as an example of the relative scale of the emissions the largest volcanic eruption for a century, Pinatubo eruption in 1992, only emitted about 3% as much CO2 as human activities do in a year.

    137. Re:Not Published = Trash by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      They are calibrated at least partly by temperature measurements made by weather balloons as they rise through the atmosphere.

      I'm not really following you there on the ocean thing. What does that have to do with measuring the microwave emissions of oxygen molecules? H2O as a highly variable (in concentration) greenhouse gas is not suitable for satellite temperature measurements.

    138. Re:Not Published = Trash by dbIII · · Score: 1

      It took a while to work it out but are you are pretending the "glass is half full" argument is an example of "shades of truth" and illustrating it with an example designed to stir up people that give a shit about US politics?
      Anyway, the post I replied to was a long running stream of shit and the "shades of truth" bit is just one little chunky bit designed to raise up the ghost of relativism. Once you get into the territory where anyone's word is the same as another, reputation doesn't matter and the language twists at will then whoever has the biggest budget for advertising gets their message across to more people than anyone else. Surgeon General or Phillip Morris? I say fuck relativism and go with the Surgeon General.

    139. Re:Not Published = Trash by PopularTechnology · · Score: 1

      Incorrect, this is in the article. His criticism of the Hockey Stick did not change his position on climate change,

      http://www.populartechnology.net/2012/06/truth-about-richard-muller.html

      Richard Muller has never been a skeptic, at best he had a moment of intellectual honesty towards skeptics when he acknowledged Steve McIntyre's debunking of Mann's Hockey Stick, only to later dismiss this as irrelevant to the global warming debate, "This result should not affect any of our thinking on global warming".

      He was never universally regarded as a skeptic despite the cartoonist's website desperate attempts to make him out to be one. You cannot find a single comment or article from him on any skeptic site and you will not find any statement that he signed being skeptical of anything.

    140. Re:Not Published = Trash by PopularTechnology · · Score: 1

      Muller explicitly stated that he was not a skeptic,

      "I was never a skeptic" - Richard Muller, 2011

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/blackberry/p.html?id=1072419

      No skeptic has ever made comments like these,

      "If Al Gore reaches more people and convinces the world that global warming is real, even if he does it through exaggeration and distortion - which he does, but he’s very effective at it - then let him fly any plane he wants." - Richard Muller, 2008

      "There is a consensus that global warming is real. ...it’s going to get much, much worse." - Richard Muller, 2008

      "Let me be clear. My own reading of the literature and study of paleoclimate suggests strongly that carbon dioxide from burning of fossil fuels will prove to be the greatest pollutant of human history. It is likely to have severe and detrimental effects on global climate." - Richard Muller, 2003

    141. Re:Not Published = Trash by dbIII · · Score: 1
      Nice strawman you are building in my name there, but you seem to have missed the word "debate" (even though you quoted it) or you are attempting to give it a new meaning. Climate science still progresses despite the debate on the warming trend being over decades ago, there was even a very large current found in the southern ocean last year that explained a few things. For example, just because effects of El Nino and La Nina were discovered over a century ago doesn't mean results on that aspect of climate can't be refined.

      The current paper in question is attempting to be part of science

      As other posters have pointed out there is some deliberate inclusion of information that has not been peer reviewed so could be utter bullshit. It's attempting to influence instead of attempting to be part of science. It's just another version of "brand X is good".

    142. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Non peer reviewed talking points don't falsify anything. I still believe you have no idea how science works.

      (PS: This paper, 2012, builds upon new research - Leroy - and is thus not 'the same claim' and cannot in any way be falsified by anything that was written even before Leroy [2010])

    143. Re:Not Published = Trash by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      There is a LOT of real debate, among scientists, over global warming. To deny this merely shows your ignorance.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    144. Re:Not Published = Trash by sumdumass · · Score: 2

      It took a while to work it out but are you are pretending the "glass is half full" argument is an example of "shades of truth" and illustrating it with an example designed to stir up people that give a shit about US politics?

      Actually I was presenting the He was elected by the least votes and won by the most votes at the same time argument. You do not have to give a shit about US politics, but if you want to retain any resemblance of credibility, you have to give a shit about shades of truth within the example given.

      Anyway, the post I replied to was a long running stream of shit and the "shades of truth" bit is just one little chunky bit designed to raise up the ghost of relativism. Once you get into the territory where anyone's word is the same as another, reputation doesn't matter and the language twists at will then whoever has the biggest budget for advertising gets their message across to more people than anyone else. Surgeon General or Phillip Morris? I say fuck relativism and go with the Surgeon General.

      Reputation does not matter in the world of politics.In a lot of cases, it does not matter outside of the field of practice either. AGW if firmly planted in the world of politics whether we like it or not. We elect coke sniffing mayors who get busted with prostitutes all the time (Washington DC). Almost every politician is a career manipulator of the truth, they make promises with absolutely no intention of keeping, and serve themselves more then the public- at least it appears that way from the outside looking in.

    145. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Climate science still progresses despite the debate on the warming trend being over decades ago

      Assumes facts not in evidence, consequently your argument fails.

      The warming debate will be over when we see if the globe warms over the long term, rather than when (some number of people >= some hopeful threshold) claim we're in a long term trend; and the APCGW debate will be over when we can build a model sophisticated enough to predict near past, present, and future climate accurately that also shows human input is a significant factor.

      Neither have yet come to pass; hence your position is absolutely worthless.

      Should we be careful about what pollution we emit? Sure. The effects are unknown, so care is called for. Should we turn our economy upside down, though? There's no actual knowledge that calls for such an action.

    146. Re:Not Published = Trash by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Oh really? Are you shifting the goalposts away from "is there warming or not" to something else or are you calling Monckton and other idiots for hire scientists?
      Please enlighten my "ignorance", and fuck you for appending Feynman's name onto your luddite bullshit to try to shine up a turd.

    147. Re:Not Published = Trash by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Wow, you insulted me.

      The primary scientific debates are 'how much' and 'what will be the result?' No scientist doubts the additional forcing from added CO2 in the atmosphere. Scientists doubt that it matters. Some scientists would have us believe that the feedbacks will escalate to apocalyptic disasters threatening civilization itself.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    148. Re:Not Published = Trash by linatux · · Score: 1

      I don't know why the web site exists, but the paper seemed to me to indicate there IS warming (didn't disprove anything).
      However, it does call into question the methodology used to compensate for poorly sited stations and indicates that the warming observed is 1/3 what is being reported.

      We're all still going to die - we just have longer to worry/argue about it!

    149. Re:Not Published = Trash by tmosley · · Score: 1

      Satellites, medicine, and skyscrapers come from an earlier era of science, prior to the emergence of publish or perish. Further, with the scientific method, older works in major fields that have not been refuted have a higher likelihood of being correct. Things like thermodynamics and evolution have withstood a great deal of attack, and stand as 9+ sigma theorems. Climate science is at best in the three sigma range, and given the clampdown on dissenting opinion, I would place it even lower than that. There are other sets of circumstances that I can see that explain the data, but require different remediation methods, but when I present them, I tend to get shouted down and called an idiot by people who don't know thing one about physical chemistry.

    150. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      man, some people fail economics.

      Belief: CO2 emissions can be decreased through application of carbon taxes. Reasoning: You get less of what you tax. Implication: imposition of a tax reduces carbon emission, but raises prices of commodity goods, the governments that collect the tax money then spend it on goods that are produced using fossil fuels, meaning no net decrease in CO2 emissions, more poverty, and already impoverished people will have less food.

      Your mistake is part 2: Government spends that money on products that produced more CO2.
      2 Counter points:
      1) What if they invested that money in Efficiency technology?
                      - Short term: I'll grant you, that money just goes back into the cycle and generates more CO2
                      - Longer term (what climate change is all about): More money has been spent on developing efficiency, thus reducing CO2 output for same work output.

      2) What if you used the taxation scheme to transition to a trading scheme. (Ala Australia's current plan).
            - Short term: its a tax, similar problem.
            - Medium term: its now a trading scheme, Company A creates carbon credit (using magic co2 scrubbing fairy dust), Company B pays Company A to do that.

      Now, company B instead of giving it to the government, gives it to Company A to reduce total carbon in the atmosphere.

      best thing is, you crazy ass anti government market nutjobs now have your "market" solution to climate change.

      PPS. putting a tax on something reduces it. We have a tax on CFC's, that seemed to do alright. (the tax was very harsh).

    151. Re:Not Published = Trash by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      Non peer reviewed talking points don't falsify anything.

      Umm...Watts has never published a peer-reviewed paper and is attempting to falisfy AGW, so why are you giving him the benifit of the doubt but not NOAA?

      As I said you do not understand the discussion. Climate scientists have known about the UHI effect since at least the 1980's, long before Watts came along and claimed the instrumental record is useless. NOAA released the document to address Watts' talking points, they are called talking points because Watts' keeps talking about them but refuses to publish anything in a peer-reviewed journal. Watts' talking points have not changed (even though the exact wording has), the arguments in the NOAA document prove his claims are fundamentally flawed and will remain that way until he answers NOAA's rebuttal.

      PS: This paper, 2012, builds upon new research - Leroy

      There are a plethora of peer-revieved papers discussing the UHI streaching back almost 3 decades that Watt's belives are wrong, however he is not even playing the same game as climate scientists so why should they (or anyone else) give him any attention at all? Until Watts goes and publishes something properly he can claim whatever the hell likes, expecting knowledgeable people to take time out of their research to write a peer-reviewed paper rebutting the nonsense on his web site is unreasonable and unscientific.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    152. Re:Not Published = Trash by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      Without the CO2 and the warming it produces the level of water vapor would drop so far that the average temperature on the surface of the Earth would be below freezing. Ever notice how colder air is dryer air?

    153. Re:Not Published = Trash by ghostdoc · · Score: 1

      Interesting reply.

      'People like me' have the opinion that arguments from authority are a logical fallacy. That's it.

      Believe it or not, you can support someone's right to have their research considered without necessarily agreeing with their research or being 'anti-science'. In fact I would think that the definition of being 'anti-science' is refusing to consider some research because of the credentials of the author.

      Just calm down, take a deep breath, accept that we don't know everything about everything and that there's no need to get into a frothing rage about someone trying to do some research. If his research is wrong, then I'm sure someone will point it out soon enough. If it's right, then we've gained more knowledge and that's a good thing.

      --
      Business/App ideas are like arseholes: everyone's got one, they're mostly shit, but very rarely they contain a diamond
    154. Re:Not Published = Trash by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      From the pdf - "Two national time series were made using the same homogeneity adjusted data set and the same gridding and area averaging technique used by NOAA’s National Climatic Data Center for its annual climate monitoring. One analysis was for the full USHCN version 2 data set. The other used only USHCN version 2 data from the 70 stations that surfacestations.org classified as good or best. We would expect some differences simply due to the different area covered: the 70 stations only covered 43% of the country with no stations in, for example, New Mexico, Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, Illinois, Ohio, West Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee or North Carolina. Yet the two time series, shown below as both annual data and smooth data, are remarkably similar. Clearly there is no indication from this analysis that poor station exposure has imparted a bias in the U.S. temperature trends".

      In this new diatribe published by Watts, he has found a reason to reduce those 70 to 12. 12 is now too small a sample to do that experiment and claim any sort of statistical significance. It's the same nonsensical claim that totally ignores existing contra-evidence, all he has done is changed the way he classifies stations so that NOAA can no longer apply that test.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    155. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're doing it wrong. There is more than one volcano active at any moment in the planet. In fact, there are tens of thousands of them. You don't compare one volcano (which is limited in time and location) with global human emissions in a year. You compare the average annual global volcano activity during a millenium with global human emissions in a year. Again, this is easy to do, and puts the human activities some orders of magnitude below natural CO2 emissions. And again, there are other gases with stronger greenhouse effect that humans don't release, but nature does.

    156. Re:Not Published = Trash by chrb · · Score: 1

      You don't need a better model to overturn the existing model, you just need to show that the existing model is making incorrect predictions

      You need a model that explains the data with a lower error metric. Remember: "all models are wrong, but some are useful" - showing that a model is wrong does not, in itself, show us anything that we didn't already know. What it can do, of course, is to highlight the areas of the model that need improving.

      Relativity makes incorrect predictions, but it is not going to be overturned until someone produces a better model.

    157. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think you read me right. It's easy to measure both human CO2 emissions and average volcano emissions. It's easy to see that volcanic activity gives us more greenhouse gases than humans. Therefore, claiming it's the other way around is a quite extraordinary claim.

    158. Re:Not Published = Trash by dbIII · · Score: 1

      The primary scientific debates are 'how much' and 'what will be the result

      Since that's not what is being referred to above (warming or not) that is most definitely a major shift of the goalposts.

    159. Re:Not Published = Trash by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      A single data point is not enough to draw a conclusion. A single person has made an assertion and given a lot of fancy sciency data to sound smart. Call me when a hundred independent groups come up with the same. Or when that Chinese doctor that's gotten 176 completely faked papers published in respected journals also confirms.

    160. Re:Not Published = Trash by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      Well then, you need to do the work and publish a paper that proves the vulcanologists wrong. Otherwise you're just blowing smoke. Good luck. And what are these greenhouse gases you're talking about that humans don't release but nature does? Perhaps you're talking about methane but humans do cause that to be released as well.

    161. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How does a paper get 'peer-reviewed' without access to the original data? In the AGW case, it seems because most peer-reviewers relied on their personal and professional relationships as opposed to any independent verification of methodology and results. Opinions may differ on the subjective assessment, but from an outsider's perspective looking in, in the AGW "scientific evidence" case, the benefits of peer-review have been greatly diminished in my opinion.

      Of course, this reality isn't reflected in most comments of those who obviously have formed their own opinions independent of potentially conflicting data. This is very telling, and underscores the corrupt nature of "climate science" as it might be.

      Thankfully those who design airplanes and nuclear power plants (as examples) didn't gain the confidence of their results through a similar process.

    162. Re:Not Published = Trash by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      Problem there is that one side controls the "peers."

      Because scientists in a given field are so NOT in competition for grant money, publication space, positions, talented students, etc., and just NEVER pick on each other's publications when reviewing.
      Thanks, I had forgotten that "fact" (in the rightwing sense).

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    163. Re:Not Published = Trash by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Uh, what's being debated above is whether NOAA has overestimated land surface temperature trends. More locally, what's being debated is that for some reason you think a report that landed on the desk of President Johnson matters scientifically.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    164. Re:Not Published = Trash by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Thanks.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    165. Re:Not Published = Trash by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      Maybe so but I've never seen any counter-evidence for the 0.28 W/m^2 number. Maybe you could do the work and publish a paper that disproves it..

      However, the fact that the Sun shines more energy on the surface of the Earth in less than 12 hours than humans use in an entire year makes me think the orders of magnitude in Flanner's paper are in the right ballpark.

    166. Re:Not Published = Trash by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Some scientists would have us believe that the feedbacks will escalate to apocalyptic disasters threatening civilization itself.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance#Argument_from_incredulity.2FLack_of_imagination

    167. Re:Not Published = Trash by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      I'm interested in how much is retained. 0.28W/m^2 is 33600 gigawats (just like a 33.6k modem?). A big coal power plant can output 4GW, not much. France's peak electricity usage is 101GW, still not much. The USA consumes over 3000GW of power per year, now we're talking. And the whole world consumes about 16TW.

      Currently the world energy usage is 16TW. The sun gives us 33.6TW. So we're releasing 47.6% as much energy from human activity as the sun bestows onto our planet. The US alone consumes just under 10% of what the sun gives us. 74GW (0.2%) of our power comes from weather-disrupting wind generation, and maybe a third or half as much comes from hydroelectric--these move existing energy, rather than drawing in (i.e. anything solar captures that would have been reflected) or releasing (i.e. anything you burn, like coal or oil), which means using wind or hydro power doesn't change the average surface temperature. So maybe we're releasing 47.35% as much energy as the sun is bestowing onto our shiny blue planet.

      I told you, we're running a giant fucking furnace here.

    168. Re:Not Published = Trash by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      Sorry, not even close. Where did you get your numbers? To quote the Wikipedia article on solar energy:

      The total solar energy absorbed by Earth's atmosphere, oceans and land masses is approximately 3,850,000 exajoules (EJ) per year.[7] In 2002, this was more energy in one hour than the world used in one year.

      Here's another link that says humans use as much energy in a day as the Sun delivers to Earth in 4 seconds.

    169. Re:Not Published = Trash by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I refer to my sig. I don't care what apocalypse you believe will happen, show me the evidence or all you have is a bunch of beliefs, otherwise known as 'faith.'

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    170. Re:Not Published = Trash by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      You gave the 0.28W/m^2 number. I just multiplied that by the entire surface area of the earth in square meters. Obviously your 0.28W/m^2 number is faulty.

      Try using non-faulty numbers. Did you mean 0.28kW/m^2? That's still off by my calculations. The 4 second from sun = 1 day by human output would indicate .004% rather than 47%, about 10000 times as much. 2.8kW/m^2 would be a closer fit. The 1 hour versus 1 year number is even more fanciful... these measurements are completely unrelated to each other it seems.

      So it seems you've given me a bunch of numbers that indicate 47%, 0.0041%, 0.01%, and a possible adjustment speculating between the closeness of two of these that comes to about 40%--that one I completely made up trying to make other numbers look related. Your argument is ridiculous, it can't even pretend to stay within the same order of magnitude.

    171. Re:Not Published = Trash by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      I think you have to check the dates carefully. I'm guessing that he started out agreeing with the AGW science from ~2000-2008, but in an article published in 2012, he said:

      “Three years ago I identified problems in previous climate studies that, in my mind, threw doubt on the very existence of global warming."

      source: http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2012/0730/Prominent-climate-change-denier-now-admits-he-was-wrong-video

      So in 2009 he found what he thought were problems with the science, became critical of it, decided to check it out, and then concluded:

      "...that global warming was real and that the prior estimates of the rate of warming were correct. I’m now going a step further: Humans are almost entirely the cause.”

    172. Re:Not Published = Trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah, he's just lying to get personal attention for his own flawed research. He succeeded.

    173. Re:Not Published = Trash by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I didn't read your GP comment close enough. The forcing of waste heat is 0.028 W/m^2. I double checked and I got it right in my OP but in my reply to your reply I dropped the zero. My fault, I'm sorry for the confusion.

      But that drops your calculation to 3360 GW compared to 16000 GW of world power use. But I think you just used the land area of the globe. According to Wikipedia the surface area of the Earth is 510,072,000 km^2 which would give about 14300 GW of waste heat at 0.028 W/m^2 which comports well with the 16000 GW of world power use. Most of the power we use ends up as waste heat eventually.

      Again, my apologies for the confusion.

    174. Re:Not Published = Trash by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Ah yes - your quote out of context, a portion added by yourself no less, to back up your luddite statements.
      Has anyone told you yet what Feynman did for a living?
      You do know what theoretical physicists do don't you?

      Since you are busy rubbing what you think science is all about in people's faces in somebody else's name while pretending all climate science is worthless, do you mind me asking what you do for a living?

      I'm no scientist (used to be an engineer but took a recession to the knee), but I do run the computer systems for the sort of scientists that have to accept that the world is over 6000 years old if they want to be able to do their jobs.

    175. Re:Not Published = Trash by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      That's ... a lot of waste heat from power usage. Consider a surface temperature of freezing on average (273 kelvin), 1% would be a 2.73 degree change (kelvin, celsius), 0.36% is a degree. Not to mention it radiates out faster than it covers the planet (part of the planet is hot, part is cold, obviously the heat from the hot part radiates out to space partially before it warms the cool part, else the planet would be one uniform temperature), which means in theory cities would be hotter than other places without industrialization. In effect, a packed highway in rush hour should be a very hot place compared to a grassy meadow a half mile away.

      All power ends up as waste heat, except hydro and wind and tidal. Geothermal technically doesn't end up as waste heat, but for our limited scope it does (else so does hydro and wind and tidal). Hydro and tidal alters the movement of water; wind alters the movement of wind and weather. While both of these will have major impacts on surface weather patterns if we derive a lot of power from them, they still serve to simply pull heat from the environment and then move it around.

      By contrast, solar power attempts to capture sunlight that would otherwise reflect to space. Burning coal or oil or wood releases stored energy (this happens normally, but much more slowly, with wood; we're speeding up the absorption-release cycle of trapping solar energy into wood and then releasing it later by burning it quickly). Nuclear power releases the energy in nuclear material quickly (that fuel's been in the ground for ages, we use it up in a few decades). Geothermal brings heat to the surface as solar does, but from the ground rather than the sky. Even running a diesel or gasoline engine heats the engine, which belches hot exhaust from a hot engine block that must eventually cool down.

      Every piece of energy we collect goes into storage which is potential-controlled. This storage is isolated in some way--chemically, for example, or maybe thermally insulated--to prevent it from bleeding off. A battery lets energy flow to equalize its hot (negative) side with its cold (positive) side, releasing the potential difference as waste heat (more heat at higher resistance segments of the pathway). A gasoline engine does the same, allowing hot gases to expand to distribute heat by distributing a concentrated high energy mass (burned fuel exhaust, lots of energy in one place, hence why it's hot), which moves a piston. We store and sometimes utilize (i.e. electricity) these things as something other than heat, but in the end all energy becomes heat when applied.

    176. Re:Not Published = Trash by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I'm no scientist (used to be an engineer but took a recession to the knee),

      I know. Otherwise you would have asked for evidence, you wouldn't believe things because someone told you them. That is the key to science.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    177. Re:Not Published = Trash by dbIII · · Score: 1

      So, I sked for evidence and instead got some personal attack right out of a school playground followed by your editied sig which is a direct appeal to authority of a man that would be offended if he wasn't conveniently dead.
      If you don't want to be mistaken for a petulant child then stop writing like one.

    178. Re:Not Published = Trash by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Let me get this right - you are declaring an entire field of science worthless by fiat as your argument as to why the politically inconvenient situation of global warming should be ignored?
      Is your sig some sort of primative "fight fire with fire" thing where you call upon the spirit of a respected mightly demon of science to fight those nasty little imps that take it seriously instead of going into worthy fields such as real estate development?
      Perhaps I've missed the mark and your coding background has simply made you think that any science without immediate practical results is worthless? Are you some sort of cargo cult loser that loves the fruits of technology, thinks it arrives by magic, and utterly despises any attempt at the long slog and dead ends that actually deliver the technology?
      I'm interested. Why do you think you know any better than the hundreds of thousands of experts in a field you appear to deem worthless by fiat?

    179. Re:Not Published = Trash by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Let me get this right - you are declaring an entire field of science worthless by fiat as your argument as to why the politically inconvenient situation of global warming should be ignored?

      No, of course the field of science is not worthless. Feynman did point out that some fields of science do have difficulties following good principles, however.

      But that was not my point. My point was that saying a report was put on the desk of President Johnson proves nothing, and furthermore saying that the science is settled shows an incredible ignorance, perhaps willful, about AGW. There is a LOT we don't know.

      Are you some sort of cargo cult loser that loves the fruits of technology,

      Interesting you mention cargo cults. You should read Feynman's take on the topic, I have no doubt you will enjoy it. Because he is a good writer.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    180. Re:Not Published = Trash by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      The point is that the number of heat sources produced by humanity, or the animal kingdom in general, is finite, and pretty small over the area of the planet (as far as I know, nobody's paved the oceans (70% of the earth's surface) and covered them with "Planes. Trucks. Cars. Factories. Power plants". On the other hand, CO2-mediated IR absorbency occurs in the entire atmosphere, over every square inch of the earth's surface, capturing radiated heat. That's an enormous amount, in total. It's been calculated and rechecked numerous times, that merely the increase in CO2, not the entire AGW effect, amounts to the energy equivalent of 278 Hiroshima size nuclear devices every minute, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Over time, that tends to add up, I'd guess.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    181. Re:Not Published = Trash by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      I read recently that the oceans are absorbing heat at a rate of over 2 Hiroshima's a second.

    182. Re:Not Published = Trash by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      That's kind of a rambling reply that's hard to get much out of. I think about the only human power use that doesn't eventually devolve to waste heat is probably the visible light we produce that is not blocked by the atmosphere on its way off planet.

      My original point still stands, the 0.028 W/m^2 of forcing from human waste heat is so miniscule compared to the average insolation of 250 W/m^2 that the Sun puts on the surface of the Earth and 2.9 W/m^2 of additional forcing from the greenhouse gases that humans have added to the atmosphere that it can be ignored for all practical purposes. But I will stipulate that human waste heat can have some local effects where there is a constant source of it.

  2. Jenny McCarthy: Vaccines Cause Autism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    Denier denies. Why is anyone surprised?

  3. Oh dear... by Shrike82 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    He uses a siting classification system developed by Michel Leroy for Meteofrance in 1999 that was improved in 2010 to quantify the effect of heat sinks and sources within the thermometer viewshed by calculation of the area- weighted and distance-weighted impact of biasing elements to calculate both raw and gridded 30 year trends for each surveyed station, using temperature data from USHCNv2.

    Had to read that a couple of times before my internal parser came back with an approximate translation into lay-English.

    I fear that this will be ammunition for the climate change deniers, which if I understand correctly is not the intention here. The gentleman in question is merely pointing out possible bias and error and the open invitation is to critically analyse and see if his theory stands up. You know, like real scientific method! Still, I'll sit back now and watch the fireworks in what promises to be yet another pitched battle between the deeply entrenched sides in a war where actual fact is not nearly as important as name calling and idealogical strength of will.

    And the insults start in 3.....2......1......

    --
    You can advertise in this sig from as little as £99.99 a month!
    1. Re:Oh dear... by Rei · · Score: 5, Informative

      No, he's a well known denier (probably *the* most well known among lay people). He's not a climatologist; he's a local meteorologist for a small Fox affiliate in southern California. And this is unpublished, and will almost certainly be ripped to shreds when it gets submitted, like most of the other trash he submits. He's funded by the Heartland Institute (a conservative organization that takes industry money and uses it to push various forms of denial of interest to them, including things like global warming denial (funded by Koch Industries), denial of the links between tobacco and cancer (funded by Philip-Morris), etc.)

      Actual published, peer-reviewed work analyzing his "work" has reached precisely the opposite conclusion.

      --
      "... Sean Hannity, whose surgery to remove those bolts from his neck was apparently successful, ..."
    2. Re:Oh dear... by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      Well, that's where we are now. The actual science has been hopelessly muddied by trying to use this for political ends. The climate alarmists want to use the science to implement a wish list of leftist dreams that have been around forever (but THIS time, you have to do it because it's SCIENTIFIC) and the climate denialists want to use the science to support their side of the argument so they can continue polluting. It's the Kobiyashi Maru all over again.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    3. Re:Oh dear... by Vintermann · · Score: 5, Informative

      he's a local meteorologist for a small Fox affiliate in southern California

      A weatherman. In some countries, weather presenters are called meteorologists, but in general you need to have a graduate degree (heavy on math and physics) involving actual meteorological research to be called a meteorologist. Watts' highest completed education is high school, as far as anyone has been able to make out.

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    4. Re:Oh dear... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      Actual published, peer-reviewed work analyzing his "work" has reached precisely the opposite conclusion.

      Ahh, that would be the peer-reviewed work that was "prematurely published", "using a subset of the site classifications that Anthony [Watts] has completed (and, moreover, the site classification data they used has not even gone through final quality assurance checks!)"--"They used only ~40% of the USHCN sites yet over 87% have actually been surveyed by Anthony’s volunteers." (http://pielkeclimatesci.wordpress.com/2010/01/15/professional-discourtesy-by-the-national-climate-data-center/)

    5. Re:Oh dear... by gatzke · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Attack the work, not the man or his (lack of) credentials.

      AFAIK, the work is relatively simple statistical analysis of time series data. No advanced science required. I have not looked in detail, but they claim that the adjustments made to climate data are biased.

      If this is an erroneous claim, it should be easy to demonstrate.

    6. Re:Oh dear... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      My friend, the instults started in your comment when you used the word "denier".

      Those who test and question the veracity of the climate change science are practicing scepticism, and good science requires scepticism. It is of course your perogative to deny that you are making a holocaust reference - would that make you a holocaust-reference-denier?

      It's one of those boxes that once you open it, there is no limit to how silly things can get.

    7. Re:Oh dear... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's actually several authors named. Happy to inform since you seem to have missed it.

    8. Re:Oh dear... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > No, he's a well known denier (probably *the* most well known among lay people). He's not a climatologist;

      Would you be kind enough to define how you are using the term "climatologist"? I only ask because some people say anyone who agrees with AGW is a climatologist, and anyone who does not is not. Is that your position?

      The paper you link to is dated 2010. I therefore doubt whether it debunks the paper in the story, which was published more recently. Arrow of time and all that.

      Oh and as regards peer-review, this is an important part of he scientific process, but it is fallible because of the heavy human subjectivity aspect. In the case of climatology, as documented in the climate-gate emails, peer-reveiw has been effectively subverted by AGW supporters and can no longer be taken seriously. This is just one of several ways climatology has been debasing science.

    9. Re:Oh dear... by Rei · · Score: 0

      Who mentioned the holocaust?

      You're denying something. That makes you a denier. Aka, a practicer of denialism. It's a technical term; deal with it.

      --
      "... Sean Hannity, whose surgery to remove those bolts from his neck was apparently successful, ..."
    10. Re:Oh dear... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative

      I have personally sent money to the surface station project (as have many others - it's crowd funded). In no way is he "funded" by the Heartland institute because of the one off unrelated project he's done with them. Why do you post lies, knowingly?

    11. Re:Oh dear... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But he didn't attack the man. He merely pointed out that he's not a meteorologist. In my country when I see somebody on TV forecasting the weather that person is a meteorologist, they have spent years studying the weather and know a lot more about the climate than I do. In the US they're just an actor reading from a script.

      The US does _have_ meterologists, who might know something about the climate, but this man is not one of them.

    12. Re:Oh dear... by Vintermann · · Score: 0

      You're welcome, Watts.

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    13. Re:Oh dear... by devleopard · · Score: 1

      Why do we celebrate college dropouts who form spectacularly successful Internet startups then?

      Science is wonderful: not just the science that supports our world view. Articles on Slashdot frequently parade movements to challenge the science status quo (people making rockets in their garage, open source approaches to publication, etc. Perhaps his findings are garbage, but most of your post was nothing more than an ad hominem attack; your only reference to his research was a link to someone else's challenge, not any original thought of your own.

      I don't care who he works for, his education level, or who may have sponsored him at any time. Plenty of lesser men is lesser circumstances have changed the world. Let's talk about his findings, and not cheat ourselves by using words like "trash" as if they carried any weight.

      --
      The best thing about a boolean is even if you are wrong, you are only off by a bit.
    14. Re:Oh dear... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Remind me, what did I deny?

    15. Re:Oh dear... by Rei · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not that it'd even matter anyway, as meteorologists aren't climatologists, and actually deal with very different phenomena. It's the difference between a biologist and a paleontologist.

      --
      "... Sean Hannity, whose surgery to remove those bolts from his neck was apparently successful, ..."
    16. Re:Oh dear... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whatever it is, I DENY it....

      (Denial is ALWAYS the best policy..!)

    17. Re:Oh dear... by Rei · · Score: 1

      The science of climate change.

      --
      "... Sean Hannity, whose surgery to remove those bolts from his neck was apparently successful, ..."
    18. Re:Oh dear... by Rei · · Score: 1

      If you don't call receiving nearly six figures "funding", then the term "funding" has no meaning.

      --
      "... Sean Hannity, whose surgery to remove those bolts from his neck was apparently successful, ..."
    19. Re:Oh dear... by Rei · · Score: 4, Informative

      Would you be kind enough to define how you are using the term "climatologist"?

      Do I really need to link wikipedia or a dictionary for you? It's not a vague term; it's a very specific term. A climatologist is a person who studies climate - aka, long-term changes in averages of weather (weather being short-term fluctuations in things like temperature, precipitation, etc). Climate is the signal, weather is the noise. The difference between a climatologist and a meteorologist is the difference between a paleontologist and a biologist.

      The paper you link to is dated 2010. I therefore doubt whether it debunks the paper in the story

      Correct, it debunks Watt's previous claims. Which is why he had to change them. And will almost certainly get debunked again. He's only ever had one paper published with his name on it, and it amusingly totally undercuts his own claims, arguing that there's no statistical difference in warming trends between good and poor sites and that if anything the global warming trend could be higher than the surface record.

      Oh and as regards peer-review, this is an important part of he scientific process, but it is fallible because of the heavy human subjectivity aspect.

      Because something is not perfect, it's irrelevant? Is that what you're trying to say? If I write something on a napkin, it's just as good as if experts in a field meticulously review all of the claims of a carefully constructed and controlled study?

      In the case of climatology, as documented in the climate-gate emails, peer-reveiw has been effectively subverted by AGW supporters

      That claim is absolute rubbish.

      --
      "... Sean Hannity, whose surgery to remove those bolts from his neck was apparently successful, ..."
    20. Re:Oh dear... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Northern California. He was the weatherman in my hometown for quite awhile. He seems reasonably intelligent. He's been stuck on this idea for a long time and it has been shot down repeatedly by actual scientists. He has his hypothesis and conclusion and no amount of evidence will convince him otherwise.

    21. Re:Oh dear... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I dunno. The capsule summary I got from his work was that temperatures are increasing. You telling me NOAA says temperatures aren't increasing?

    22. Re:Oh dear... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Attacking the credibility of a witness can in fact be good science. It calls into question the reliability of the reported results.

      I've seen some of his claims before: they're interesting. Unfortunately, they have a subtle bias themselves. If you put all the thermometers in cooler, more standard locations, then yes, many of them would read lower temperatures. But the lack of such cooler and more standard locations is itself a hint that urbanization itself is raising local temperatures significantly, and that in itself is strongly tied to the global warming problem..

    23. Re:Oh dear... by Loosifur · · Score: 1

      So does that make you a supporter? How about a promoter?

      --
      This unbiased moderation brought to you by the Porcine Aviation Group!
    24. Re:Oh dear... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      demonstrating bias in a statistical analysis is not as simple as it seems, particularly when the underlaying statistics is not of the kind taught in High School. Yes, it should be easy to demonstrate, however if the statistics is really very badly done, it might not be worth spending the effort - rather better to expend resources chasing the signal than the noise.

    25. Re:Oh dear... by Purpendicular · · Score: 1

      So, according to your definition, Watts is a climatologist, since he studies "long-term changes in averages of weather".

      The kind of degree he has is a separate matter. Darwin did not have a PhD. Darwin did not publish his theory of evolution in a "peer reviewed journal". Darwin was self-financed and not employed by a reputable institution...

      I guess these revelations prove that the theory of evolution is false..., But, hey, the Bible is not peer reviewed either. What to believe...

    26. Re:Oh dear... by Vintermann · · Score: 1

      And this will be done rather quickly I expect, by people who are much more competent to judge it than me. It's not quite a simple time series analysis - you also need some domain specific information which I haven't, related to physics and even history (e.g. the introduction of electronic thermometers).

      Also: some bloggers do go back to school, and get respected in their field of interest. Just not Watts.

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    27. Re:Oh dear... by Purpendicular · · Score: 1

      Hear, hear.

    28. Re:Oh dear... by Purpendicular · · Score: 1

      The term denier is commonly associated with the holocaust. In French the translation of "denier" is négationniste, and you can go to jail for that (no first amendment to protect you).

    29. Re:Oh dear... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Before "global warming" (now called climate change) there weren't climatoligists, they have really only sprung up since Al Gore made a big deal

    30. Re:Oh dear... by haruchai · · Score: 1

      Spend some time on his site and you'll quickly learn just how much garbage he and his sycophants produce.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    31. Re:Oh dear... by RabidReindeer · · Score: 1

      Credentials aren't everything. Consider the MCSE, for example. But as a general rule, someone who has documented evidence of study and experience in a field is more credible than someone who doesn't.

      Locally, our TV meteorologists are generally worth the title. They carried AMS certifications when it was the exception rather than the rule, and most of them have been here long enough to understand how the local weather patterns behave.

      That doesn't mean that I'd blindly accept statistics from them, however. That's not their job, nor is it a requirement for AMA certification. When they need stats, they get them from the regional NOAA office at the airport.

    32. Re:Oh dear... by makomk · · Score: 1

      Scepticism requires admitting you're wrong when the evidence is against you. Climate change deniers don't do that - when the evidence they're collecting gives an answer they don't like (as happened with Watt's last attempt to find flaws in the NOAA surface station network), they just pretend it didn't happen and carry on.

    33. Re:Oh dear... by gatzke · · Score: 3, Insightful

      He was dismissing the paper because one author appears to not be formally trained as a meteorologist.

      Again, this is more about data analysis than weather. You have hundreds (thousands?) of different stations of different quality. Some records are incomplete. Records stop and start at different times. Measurement devices change. Measurement times change.

      There is not much in the way of climate science in this, just putting data together. There are implications for climate science, however.

      The problem is to put all that data together intelligently. The current paper says the traditional methods are biased to the warming side. If this is not true, it should be refuted.

      If you followed the climategate issues, you might realize some established climate scientists appear to have biased their own work to fit an agenda. Some also say they have also worked the peer review system to unduly suppress opposition opinions.

    34. Re:Oh dear... by tomhath · · Score: 1

      And this is unpublished, and will almost certainly be ripped to shreds when it gets submitted, like most of the other trash he submits

      Sure looks like an attack on the man to me.

    35. Re:Oh dear... by catmistake · · Score: 1

      but in general you need to have a graduate degree (heavy on math and physics) involving actual meteorological research to be called a meteorologist

      Actually it's a sub discipline or specialization of Geology, along with some other atmospheric sciences like climatology. You don't need to be a physicist or have any advanced math degrees to be competant in meteorology (like you might for atmospheric physics and fluid dynamics).

    36. Re:Oh dear... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Credentials are, however, something.

      Watt's lack of academic credentials are not the primary reasons to dismiss his work. Those are, in rough order:

      1) His results contradict enormous amounts of well-scrutinized other scientific work on both the same and related topics, and explanations offered for that contradiction are grossly inadequate;
      2) His past results appear to have involved deliberate deception;
      3) His past results, and a casual reading of these results, suggest a serious ignorance of science;
      4) His past results were thoroughly wrong;
      and 5) He is quite plainly in this to produce a particular result he wants.

      His lack of credentials is just number 6. This doesn't really even have that much to do with science; this is simply how, in a world where you have finite amounts of time and attention, you decide what to pay attention to. If the first five of these things were true but Watts had been Einstein's personal protege, we might still pay a little attention on the off chance that the rest of science had grossly missed something this genius had uncovered, or at least that he had come up with some specific relevant point. There's no reason to think that here. The scientific problems are the main reason to ignore this guy, but his near-complete lack of scientific education is perfectly reasonable as the nail in the coffin. This is particularly true for non-specialists attempting to evaluate the newsworthiness of a story.

    37. Re:Oh dear... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Rei hasn't read the fucking paper. He doesn't understand what the paper is about, nor the techniques used to generate the numbers. He's talking out of his ass and built in bias.

      Asking him about Climate Change is like discussing civil rights with a Skin Head.

    38. Re:Oh dear... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And this is unpublished, and will almost certainly be ripped to shreds when it gets submitted, like most of the other trash he submits

      Sure looks like an attack on the man to me.

      Aw the poor muffin

    39. Re:Oh dear... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "Attack the work, not the man or his (lack of) credentials."

      OK, it's known that Watts believes that changing the baseline of a time series will change the slope of a trend, a misconception that someone who's passed first-year middle-school algebra is wrong. It's not something he's stated once only, he's doubled down on it when people have patiently tried to educate him on it.

      Regarding the paper, he put it up on his website last Sunday. According to his own timeline, he began "teaching myself statistics" on Friday afternoon. And as a result managed to overturn all the professional work done over years by professionals.

      Scientifically, the most important problem with his conclusion is that he just claims that homogenization *wrongly* increases the trend from raw data. He hasn't studied the homogenization algorithms or explained why they're wrong. He must do that. Homogenization is only one approach to accounting for changes in stations (they move, instruments are changed, time of observation is changed) that make the raw data inaccurate. BEST uses an entirely different approach and gets the same answer. When Watts uses homogenized data, he gets the same answer, too.

      His justification for claiming throwing out homogenized data is supported only by his stated claim that he *knows* the trend *must be* lower.

      This is not science.

      He also throws out data from airports, even though they meet his classification standards, the standards he describes as "the gold standard" and "adopted by WMO".

      Why does he throw out this data? Because he doesn't like the (higher) trend in that data ...

      Again, this is not science.

    40. Re:Oh dear... by clarkholmes · · Score: 1
    41. Re:Oh dear... by braeldiil · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You're only a sceptic if you can be convinced (by reasonable evidence) that the original claim is true. Otherwise, you're a denier, and discussing the issue with you is a waste of everyone's time. There are some classic signs that indicate you are a denier, not merely a skeptic. A general pattern is someone from completely outside the field making extraordinary claims that everyone else is doing it wrong. There's usually a conspiracy from the "experts" to shut them out. It's a constantly evolving theory, where the conclusions never change, but the reasoning always does. And, of course, there's usually a lot of funding from an organization with a vested interest in opposing the the original science. Watt is really no different from the Intellegent Design folks or Jenny Macarthy and the vaccine-autism folks, and he's only a short step from the Time-cube guy.

    42. Re:Oh dear... by hamburger+lady · · Score: 1

      i guess watt's work also explains why satellite data shows warming consistent with land-based measurements. cause shut up, that's why.

      --

      ---
      Is this the MPAA? Is this the RIAA? Is this the DMCA? I thought it was the USA!
    43. Re:Oh dear... by spidercoz · · Score: 0

      patently false

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Evelyn Beatrice Hall, re Voltaire
    44. Re:Oh dear... by pastafazou · · Score: 1

      wow, that's quite the character assassination! You really have your hate on for this guy, don't you? FYI, he is not funded by the Heartland Institute. He requested a donation from them for a single project that required some significant investment in servers, programming, and bandwidth. And in regards to your "peer reviewed" article, they were using a small subset of the total stations. In fact, they got their data from Watts directly. However, he notes that it was an incomplete survey they worked off of, only 43% of the stations that he had surveyed up to that point, and the data hadn't been quality controlled. He also found issues with the algorithms that are being used to "adjust" the data. Also of note is the work of climatologist James Goodridge, who found an increase in temperature of 0.9F when thermometers were upgraded from from mercury to MMTS. These are discrepancies that still haven't been accounted for. Of course, for you global warming is clearly a religion, and it's not about the science at all. You believe wholeheartedly, so if someone questions the accuracy, he's a "denier" and in the pay of "big oil". He can't possibly have any valid input, can he?

    45. Re:Oh dear... by tmosley · · Score: 1

      Yes, but counteracting the effects of urban heat islands requires a different course of action than counteracting AGW. That is a significant point. If it means passing a regulation that all rooftops be painted white, then that seems like a better idea than clamping down on use of carbon fuels. Nevermind that that same regulation would do more to reduce CO2 emissions than a billion hippies could ever accomplish with their entire collective lifespan.

      On the other hand, if we were to try to halt AGW by shifting all of our energy production to LFTRs, and used that energy to create artificial fuels from carbon in the atmosphere, then there would be no effect on urban heat islands, even as global CO2 levels stabilize.

    46. Re:Oh dear... by tmosley · · Score: 1

      Wait, wait. You realize that by claiming that the heat island effect is a change in the baseline, you are thus assuming no growth in urban environments, right?

      Good Lord, you've been outwitted by a high school "denialist".

    47. Re:Oh dear... by operagost · · Score: 1

      Thanks to the lunatic fringe for checking in. Now, please run along and play while the adults have a discussion.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    48. Re:Oh dear... by fredrated · · Score: 1

      Your debunking is staggeringly brilliant!

    49. Re:Oh dear... by operagost · · Score: 1

      He garnered the AWS seal of approval, which at least requires a minimal level of college credit in meteorology (which he probably acquired from Purdue) and experience. Bill Nye is a mechanical engineer, but that doesn't stop him from using appeals to his own nonexistent authority in the field of climate science.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    50. Re:Oh dear... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yes, he did attack the man. he attacked the man's credentials...which is totally irrelevant. 'attack' the man's theory/data. it would be awfully sad if some tribesman in africa came up with cold fusion and no one bothered to check his claim simply because he was a tribesman in africa.

    51. Re:Oh dear... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Therefore, Al "Methuselah" Gore is about a thousand years old.

      That's right folks--and don't forget that you learned it on Slashdot!

    52. Re:Oh dear... by Vintermann · · Score: 1

      He was dismissing the paper because one author appears to not be formally trained as a meteorologist.

      No, I was just correcting Rei slightly. I also wanted to make the point that genuine meteorologists have a pretty serious education, and TV presenters don't (these days). Many TV presenters outstep their field of expertise and pretend they know more than the do - just like us engineers ;) Watts is also pretty cranky, but that's beside the point. If you have time to take seriously the publications of someone with his poor record (as well as lack of a record), all the more power to you.

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    53. Re:Oh dear... by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      And the insults start in 3.....2......1......

      No, he's a well known denier ... He's not a climatologist; he's a local meteorologist ... Fox affiliate ... unpublished, ... ripped to shreds ... the Heartland Institute ... conservative ... industry money ... denial ... global warming denial ... Koch Industries ... denial ... tobacco and cancer ... Philip-Morris),

      Countdown was too slow.

      It's only a "3 - Informative" so far. Need to throw in some "extremist right-winger" and "Mobil oil", maybe some "earth-destroying" adjectives to reach the +5.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    54. Re:Oh dear... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Could you have at least waited a few posts before starting the insults instead of making OP's countdown perfectly accurate?

    55. Re:Oh dear... by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      But he didn't attack the man. He merely pointed out that he's not a meteorologist.

      I don't know if you realize it, but that IS in fact attacking the man.

      If I were going to attack him, I would point out that his paper is horribly double-spaced, and has line-numbers. I suspect that's to make it easy for peer review (since it's a pre-print release), but that is still not attacking his argument. To attack his argument, I actually have to read his paper.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    56. Re:Oh dear... by BMOC · · Score: 1

      1) His results contradict enormous amounts of well-scrutinized other scientific work on both the same and related topics, and explanations offered for that contradiction are grossly inadequate;

      Contradiction of previous work is not a pre-requisite to dismissal of new work, if this were so, scientific inquiry would not advance, it would halt in its tracks.

      2) His past results appear to have involved deliberate deception;

      In what way? That's a serious charge, back it up with something.

      3) His past results, and a casual reading of these results, suggest a serious ignorance of science;

      Again, this is a claim without backing, it's closer to a direct insult than an actual claim to begin with.

      4) His past results were thoroughly wrong;

      Incorrect results on a previous paper are not cause to dismiss a new paper. If this were not so most people could disregard your next comment, oh wait, you posted anonymously. Hello Michael Mann! Or is it Gavin this time? Yes, likely Gavin.

      and 5) He is quite plainly in this to produce a particular result he wants.

      All writing has bias, so please explain how the bias has been removed from the consensus viewpoint. Bias is not removed through magical means, it is exposed and acknowledged. I've yet to see a consensus scientist confess that they have a bias, they seem to instead imply that they are "Correct" and all who disagree are "incorrect".

      --
      I swear they give me mod points to shut me up.
    57. Re:Oh dear... by lessthan · · Score: 1

      What is fact and what is attack? Is it the phrasing? The OP said that Anthony Watts was a meteorologist (as part of an attack that boiled down to Watts being small fry bought and paid for by the Heartland Institute). The child post, which we are debating, simply pointed out that 'meteorologist' is factually incorrect. It is a fact that Anthony Watts has record of formal science training in any field.

      --
      Space Shuttle was a program that strapped humans to an explosion and tried to stab through the sky with fire and math
    58. Re:Oh dear... by lessthan · · Score: 1

      D'Oh! It is supposed to say 'no record of formal science training in any field.' Sorry.

      --
      Space Shuttle was a program that strapped humans to an explosion and tried to stab through the sky with fire and math
    59. Re:Oh dear... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's still an ad hominem attack. There's no reason to discuss someone's background unless you are trying to smear the person AND the results.

      Either the science and math is sound, or it's not. Discuss that instead. I suspect however that most people reading here know nothing of climate science and statistics and can't refute it properly so they resort to personal attacks.

    60. Re:Oh dear... by sycodon · · Score: 1

      According to Slashdot standards, "debunking" pretty much amounts to saying "no, it's not".

      So, the AC debunked it.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    61. Re:Oh dear... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the case of climatology, as documented in the climate-gate emails, peer-reveiw has been effectively subverted by AGW supporters

      That claim is absolute rubbish.

      Saying it is rubbish does not make it so, no matter how many times you tell yourself that in a mirror. Phil Jones' own e-mails demonstrate a lot of subversive activity going on, and he's just one scientist involved in this field.

    62. Re:Oh dear... by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I don't think you understand logic. It is ad homenim because it is irrelevant to his argument; you are attacking the person.

      I can just as easily say, "You wrote a paper, but you are a woman." Whether you are a woman is a clearly identifiable fact (in most cases), it is true, and yet it is irrelevant to the argument. This is what we call attacking the person. Great! He never got a degree in climatology! Well, neither did James Hansen, and he leads one of the biggest climate research centers on the planet.

      If Watts is wrong, you should be able to find explain why from the paper, not from whether he has any training. The training required to write this paper was very small. He used a method of rating thermometer sites developed by Michel Leroy of METEO in France, based on surface area of nearby heatsinks. Other papers have used this method, but as far as I can tell, he was the first to use it on such a large scale.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    63. Re:Oh dear... by Purpendicular · · Score: 1

      I've done that. It turns out that he and his "sycophants", i.e. other contributors, use the scientific method of looking at the evidence.

      On a personal note, I was uncommitted until I asked an innocent question on Little Green Footballs and was treated as "a denier", "a troll". Now, my PhD in physics has nothing to do with climatology, but one does not have to be a scientist to recognise "appeal to authority" as in "consensus". Galileo was condemned by the "consensus" of the time. "Einstein says...", "the IPCC writes..." or "the results have been peer reviewed" are not scientific arguments.

    64. Re:Oh dear... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since you are claiming to be skeptical of his work by virtue of his sources of funding, I need to point out that virtually all the AGW pushers are funded by the government. If you say there is no AGW, then you don't get money. If you say there is AGW, then the louder you can say it, the more money you get. You are the kettle calling the pan black.

    65. Re:Oh dear... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forgot

      0) He refuses to stand by his word.
      http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/10/23/watts-wrote-a-check-he-couldnt/

      Since not even he will acknowledge his own words, you can't give credit to something he has coauthored as he does not give his own words credence.

    66. Re:Oh dear... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Incorrect results on a previous paper are not cause to dismiss a new paper. If this were not so most people could disregard your next comment, oh wait, you
      > posted anonymously. Hello Michael Mann! Or is it Gavin this time? Yes, likely Gavin.

      I'm not the same AP, however, long term trends can predict future trends. If someone always publishes incorrect material, it really destroys the credibility of that person.

    67. Re:Oh dear... by lessthan · · Score: 1

      Lol, I don't understand logic? Why would you attack me like that? It is uncalled for. Let me try again. As I tried to make clear in my previous comment, this entire comment tree has nothing to do with Watt's paper. It has nothing to do with proving or disproving the hypothesis he has set out. The original comment was an ad hominem, but made the mistake of saying that Watts was a meteorologist. The second comment pointed out the mistake. Then you stated that the correction was, in fact, an attack, when it was a correction of an attack. Not the same thing.

      I am enjoying this comment (#40829841) BTW, where you accuse me of not understanding logic, while in the next breath using a false equivalence. Anthony Watts is not equivalent to James Hansen. James Hansen (from Wikipedia) "obtained a B.A. in Physics and Mathematics with highest distinction in 1963, an M.S. in Astronomy in 1965 and a Ph.D. in Physics, in 1967, all three degrees from the University of Iowa. He participated in the NASA graduate traineeship from 1962 to 1966 and, at the same time, between 1965 and 1966, he was a visiting student at the Institute of Astrophysics at the University of Kyoto and in the Department of Astronomy at the University of Tokyo. Hansen then began work at the Goddard Institute for Space Studies in 1967."

      Anthony Watts has no record of any formal education beyond high school. Here is a link to his own webpage which has no mention of education nor, when asked directly, has he stated that he has graduated from anywhere.

      Do you really not see the difference?

      --
      Space Shuttle was a program that strapped humans to an explosion and tried to stab through the sky with fire and math
    68. Re:Oh dear... by sjames · · Score: 1

      While not perfect, there is a rule of thumb to tell them apart. During severe weather, the meteorologist will attempt to hide his/her childlike excitement, onmly somewhat successfully, in order to not offend people who might suffer damage from the event. A weather presenter will focus on the next predicted sunny day.

    69. Re:Oh dear... by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      That you're citing "Climategate" displays your ignorance.
      Several (I can't remember how many) inquests into the whole affair came up with the same conclusion: That the stolen emails did not contain any indications that any science was compromised.

    70. Re:Oh dear... by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Anthony Watts has no record of any formal education beyond high school. Here is a link to his own webpage [wattsupwiththat.com] which has no mention of education nor, when asked directly, has he stated that he has graduated from anywhere. Do you really not see the difference?

      Sure, I see a huge difference. Anthony Watts isn't very impressive.

      I also see many times in history when people, scientists, tried to use their authority and credentials to push theories that were false (Lord Kelvin and Linus Pauling are famous examples).

      The fact is, the guy has done a lot of work evaluating thermometers. Enough so that Muller at Berkeley was willing to use his data. The paper isn't rocket science, you don't need a PhD in physics to do this work. All you need is thirst for accurate data.

      This is something Hansen should have done long ago.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    71. Re:Oh dear... by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      True skepticism is willing to follow the evidence and change it's mind if that's where it leads rather than coming up with more and more bizarre explanations about why it isn't true.

    72. Re:Oh dear... by Belial6 · · Score: 1
      This part:

      There's usually a conspiracy from the "experts" to shut them out.

      combined with this part:

      And, of course, there's usually a lot of funding from an organization with a vested interest in opposing the the original science.

      is just awesome. It is surprising how many people didn't pick up on your joke.

    73. Re:Oh dear... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I fear that this will be ammunition for the climate change deniers

      Actually what he brings up is a well known problem with the data. The response from the scientific community has been, "oh well, we're so awesome we can measure signal within noise even when the sampling error is larger than the signal we intend to find."

      So yes, I expect it will be shreded as the community at large has made it very clear that no matter how erronious their data, they can magically intuit information from it, even when statiticians say they are full of shit.

    74. Re:Oh dear... by haruchai · · Score: 1

      They do a lot of cherrypicking. Compare their postings to those on Skeptical Science.
      And he needs to tighten up his moderation policies as the occasional insightful comment get drowned out with all the diatribe directed at Gore, Hansen, Mann etc, even when it's not particularly relevant.
      Basically you can get away with posting almost anything so long as you don't call someone a denier.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    75. Re:Oh dear... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What an oxymoron.

    76. Re:Oh dear... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fact is, the guy has done a lot of work evaluating thermometers. Enough so that Muller at Berkeley was willing to use his data. The paper isn't rocket science, you don't need a PhD in physics to do this work. All you need is thirst for accurate data.

      This is something Hansen should have done long ago.

      What in the world makes you think Hansen and/or other climatologists haven't?

      I don't know if they have, honestly, but if Watts says they haven't, they probably have. Way back when Watts was first getting attention, I actually thought for a while that his criticism of surface temperature stations was pretty on point. That is, right up until I found out that he was basically flat out lying about climate science ignoring the problems he was "Just Asking Questions" about. As a matter of fact, they were way ahead of him.

      Watts is very much like a creationist, in that you can rely on him to shoot down ignorant strawman versions of science with poorly thought through pseudoscience. He's not in this to honestly examine evidence and follow what the facts say, which he proved with the whole Muller affair. Since Muller was a "skeptic", Watts made lots of noise about how if Muller said global warming was real, he'd believe it, since unlike those eeeeeevil money grubbing environmentalists Muller was a real, honest, competent scientist out to find the Truth. Then Muller did his study, performed lots of sophisticated statistical analysis, concluded global warming was real after all, and mysteriously Watts' position didn't change in any noticeable way.

    77. Re:Oh dear... by Rei · · Score: 1

      It's been analyzed over and over (see the different inquiries listed therein). It's rubbish.

      --
      "... Sean Hannity, whose surgery to remove those bolts from his neck was apparently successful, ..."
    78. Re:Oh dear... by FitForTheSun · · Score: 1

      I disagree with that sentiment. While it is strictly true that being a dumbass uneducated mook doesn't mean that you are wrong, it does mean that there is ample reason to ignore or at least be skeptical of thing you say. If a dumbass uneducated mook says crazy shit contrary to things said by the worldwide cadre of educated earnest scientists, then I think it is quite reasonable to ignore the dumbass uneducated mook. We don't have time to listen to the batshit insane ramblings of every dumbass uneducated mook, nor even of more than a small number of them. Sorry, Mr. Watts just isn't one of that small number, for most of us. You know, I also don't get my climate science from the homeless guy who shits in my company's doorway and talks about how ravens steal his farts.

    79. Re:Oh dear... by FitForTheSun · · Score: 1

      There might be a difference. The ID folks and the vaccine-autism folks almost certainly believe what they say, but it's not clear whether Watts and his ilk believe what they say. They might be pure shills. It's very hard to be sure.

    80. Re:Oh dear... by khallow · · Score: 1

      Several (I can't remember how many) inquests into the whole affair came up with the same conclusion: That the stolen emails did not contain any indications that any science was compromised.

      And as you can see, several other inquests reached different conclusions.

    81. Re:Oh dear... by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      Citation required. And no, a blog post is not an inquest.

    82. Re:Oh dear... by budgenator · · Score: 1

      I recall something like $30K, but if that's what it takes to taint credibility, than I have to point out that the CRU has received plenty of funding from evil Oil Interests

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    83. Re:Oh dear... by budgenator · · Score: 1

      I'm honestly starting to think either the original Rei sold her account or it was hacked and stolen. While I frequently disagreed with her politics, she was always rational and intelligent and arguing with her took some effort; now not so much.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    84. Re:Oh dear... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      oh, dear, what was yours in,

    85. Re:Oh dear... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      sceptisism requires your to change your opinion to meet the data inputs. Like 2+2=5, or is it really 4. NASA and the CRU say its 5, not the old 4. Why?
      Climate deniers, what you call the uneducated masses, say you should not have to pay a tax to breath or a tax based on the food you grow, or the transportqation system to distrubute the product. Just the energy that you expend to inhale and release the breath. Climatist warmers say we have to lose about 1/2 of our population to survive, to tax your output for some reason, and to stop dreaming of a "better-brighter" future, so which one should be followed, the ones who say death, or the ones who say life? Then join the group you wish to follow.
       

    86. Re:Oh dear... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're only a sceptic if you can be convinced (by reasonable evidence) that the original claim is true. Otherwise, you're a denier, and discussing the issue with you is a waste of everyone's time.

      There are some classic signs that indicate you are a denier, not merely a skeptic. A general pattern is someone from completely outside the field making extraordinary claims that everyone else is doing it wrong. There's usually a conspiracy from the "experts" to shut them out. It's a constantly evolving theory, where the conclusions never change, but the reasoning always does. And, of course, there's usually a lot of funding from an organization with a vested interest in opposing the the original science.

      Watt is really no different from the Intellegent Design folks or Jenny Macarthy and the vaccine-autism folks, and he's only a short step from the Time-cube guy.

      here is Time Machine http://www.china-cube.com/goods.asp?gid=25

    87. Re:Oh dear... by Vintermann · · Score: 1

      Saying Hansen isn't a climatologist is a bit like saying Claude Shannon wasn't a computer scientist. Yeah, the term didn't exist back then, so his PhD was in astrophysics (about the atmosphere of Venus).

      Yes, logically, a person's lack of education doesn't imply something he's written is poor. But we don't have an infinite amount of time and attention. It's nothing new at all that time and attention is rationed according to educational achievements - arguably, it's one of the main things we use those formal educational titles for.

      But anyway, Watts' pre-release paper does get attention, and people do adress why he's wrong.

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    88. Re:Oh dear... by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      It's not surprising that there are problems in the paper, because getting such messed up data correct is not easy. I've been working through the paper still, haven't finished reading it. And realistically I'm not going to actually look through all the data because I'm too lazy to do all that work.

      However, I think the core idea of the paper is correct, that you do need to take into consideration nearby heatsinks (and the WMO agrees).

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  4. 5,4,3,2,1... by Rufty · · Score: 1

    Let the bunfight begin.

    --
    Red to red, black to black. Switch it on, but stand well back.
  5. The gist of it by Jesrad · · Score: 3, Informative

    The research has classified all the surface stations into 5 classes of relevance, from "reliably close to environment" to "poorly sited" in order to evaluate whether and how much the location of the thermometer and its proximity from airports, cities and so on would skew its measures over time. The end result is that there is a warming over time, but that warming is +0.155 C / decade using the best surfacestations, and twice that (+0.309C / decade) if you use them all.

    --
    Maybe we deserve this world ?
    1. Re:The gist of it by Jesrad · · Score: 4, Informative

      No wait, I read that wrong. It says there is a +.155C warming/decade using the best (classes 1 & 2) stations, +.248C using the worse stations (classes 3, 4 and 5), and that, somehow, NOAA managed to get a +.309C / decade result out of them, by adjsuting upwards the bad stations in order to make up for their poor fidelity, and THEN adjusted upwards the good stations so they would match the poor, adjusted ones.

      --
      Maybe we deserve this world ?
    2. Re:The gist of it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not how homogenization works. Do some research.

      BEST doesn't homogenize, but rather treats station discontinuities (due to changes in the time of day temps are read, changes in thermometer technology, etc) as being two separate stations with time series that don't overlap. They get the same trend as NOAA.

    3. Re:The gist of it by tmosley · · Score: 1

      +.155C/decade is the same trend as +.309C/decade, as in they are positively correlated. The degree of the change is extraordinarily important, though, and getting it wrong is the difference between life and death for a lot of people.

  6. So, not "may have", but "has". Right. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Tell me, is this entire thread merely trolling?

    1. Re:So, not "may have", but "has". Right. by Joce640k · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Doesn't matter. What matters is that the deniers will now publish this as "scientific fact" on every possible news/media channel and the USA will get a tiny bit stupider as a result.

      --
      No sig today...
    2. Re:So, not "may have", but "has". Right. by Surt · · Score: 0

      I'm pretty sure the fox news watchers have reached maximum stupidity already. I think this is more of a get stupid people to vote thing.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    3. Re:So, not "may have", but "has". Right. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's OK, the IPCC presented their hockey stick graph as fact, and you lot ate it up with a spoon. The methods for producing that was hidden, and propelled their agenda. Why are you not looking critical at ALL presented data, only a those from the opposing side. If the IPCC thing did not get you realize that science takes a back seat to politics when it comes to the global push for anti-AGW legislation, then nothing will.

    4. Re:So, not "may have", but "has". Right. by pastafazou · · Score: 1

      Is "denier" a scientifically factual term?

    5. Re:So, not "may have", but "has". Right. by Swarley · · Score: 1

      You're an idiot. The methods for producing the original hockey stick graph were not hidden. They were published. And since publication, six or seven other climate research groups have analyzed the raw data themselves and all come up with similar graphs. I believe you are the one not looking critically at all the data. Like the fact that the hockey stick graph isn't a fraud just because two nobodies wrote a book (a book not peer reviewed before publication) saying so. They also said in their book that Mann's group cheated when producing their hockey stick graph because they only picked temperature proxy data sets which closely matched the known recent temperature record. The authors actually thought that their readers we too stupid to even know what a temperature proxy is and that closely matching the known temp record is exactly how you assess the accuracy of a temperature proxy. So Mann cheated because he only included the most accurate temperature proxies. They also don't tell you how they generated their non-hockey stick graph, by using the highly scientific method of simply throwing out any temperature proxy data that looked vaguely hockey stick shaped from inclusion in the analysis. If you spent 5 minutes on the internet looking for information that counters your beliefs as you accuse everyone else of not doing, then you'd easily find evidence that your post is idiotic bullshit.

    6. Re:So, not "may have", but "has". Right. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      shame on you for trivializing the holocaust. That is seriously low. Get some therapy, stop the hate.

    7. Re:So, not "may have", but "has". Right. by operagost · · Score: 0

      Just Rei's parts.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    8. Re:So, not "may have", but "has". Right. by segfault_0 · · Score: 1

      Sorry, peer review doesn't make something factual or non-factual.

      --

      I was crazy back when being crazy really meant something. (Charles Manson)
    9. Re:So, not "may have", but "has". Right. by dzelenka · · Score: 1

      “Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe.” - A. Einstein.

      --
      Bah!
    10. Re:So, not "may have", but "has". Right. by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      I think it is you who is trying to change the meaning of the word "denier", equating it only with holocaust deniers.

    11. Re:So, not "may have", but "has". Right. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "....What matters is that the deniers will now publish this as "scientific fact" on every possible news/media channel and the USA will get a tiny bit stupider as a result..."

      Can't see how that will happen. Unless you're going to have children...?

    12. Re:So, not "may have", but "has". Right. by Wolfling1 · · Score: 1

      +1
      But it won't just be the USA. I'm in Oz, and just had my crazy father-in-law bounce in to the room announcing that this is proof that AGW is rubbish.

  7. Who cares what it said? by Rei · · Score: 3, Informative

    It's not peer-reviewed. Everything else he's submitted for peer review on the matter of climate change has been ripped to shreds; why should this be any different?

    --
    "... Sean Hannity, whose surgery to remove those bolts from his neck was apparently successful, ..."
    1. Re:Who cares what it said? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If it's public, then stop shouting and screaming and pointing fingers like little children and act like a proper scientist and show where it's flawed, if it is.

      In the manner with which you're currently acting, you would have taken the odd FTL results from the Italian physicists to be true instead of pouring over it and finding what errors there were.

      Science has checking and verifying results as a major part of itself. Leave your bias and presumptions at the door.

    2. Re:Who cares what it said? by Rei · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If it's public, then stop shouting and screaming and pointing fingers like little children and act like a proper scientist and show where it's flawed, if it is.

      Which is exactly what the peer-review process does. Which is why you never trust non-peer-reviewed work. I can write whatever I want about anything, make it look like a paper, and then send it out to the media. Which is precisely what happened here.

      you would have taken the odd FTL results from the Italian physicists to be true

      You're walking down precisely the opposite road. Even one peer-reviewed paper on "remarkable claims" isn't enough - that's just the start of a process that can only be confirmed by a series of followup studies, spawning a process that can lead to dozens or hundreds of papers before one can feel confident in the truth of the matter.

      This here is *zero* published results.

      Science has checking and verifying results as a major part of itself.

      And the scientific process is the peer-review process, which this has not undergone, and will almost certainly fail like Watts' other "work". If he even bothers actually submitting it instead of just saying that he's going to.

      --
      "... Sean Hannity, whose surgery to remove those bolts from his neck was apparently successful, ..."
    3. Re:Who cares what it said? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative

      It's not peer-reviewed. Everything else he's submitted for peer review on the matter of climate change has been ripped to shreds; why should this be any different?

      "Everything"? I think you overlooked this one:

      Fall, S., A. Watts, J. Nielsen-Gammon, E. Jones, D. Niyogi, J. Christy, and R.A. Pielke Sr., 2011: Analysis of the impacts of station exposure on the U.S. Historical Climatology Network temperatures and temperature trends. J. Geophys. Res., Copyright (2011) American Geophysical Union.

    4. Re:Who cares what it said? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because, unfortunately even a broken clock displays the correct time twice a day. So once again a new submission requires impartiality and dispassionate objective scrutiny.

      (Unless of course the clock is digital or has no dials left)

    5. Re:Who cares what it said? by Rei · · Score: 5, Informative

      To elaborate on the problem, I started reading the "paper" and he's outright misleading right on the first page. He says that siting in peer-reviewed works showed an effect on minimum temperatures but no effect on the mean. The actual papers show a small increase in minimum temperatures, but a much larger *decrease* in maximum temperatures. I'm also noticing in the paper him mixing in peer-reviewed cites with non-peer-reviewed cites without even commenting on the fact that he's doing so, which is a huge no-no.

      Basically, his previous work not having shown what he claimed it showed after the peer-reviewed process got ahold of it, he simply changed his formula until it showed a different result. Which will almost certainly get likewise ripped up.

      Here's the reality of the situation. The many papers published on the subject of the land record and all of their reviewers are not idiots ignorant of Watts' rogue genius. The issues that he "raises" have been discussed and analyzed for ages. Because of these issues, nobody just takes the raw data and submits it as a result. There are all sorts of calculations to detect biases and compensate for them, and all of these adjustments are analyzed with higher-precision real-world data to see how well they work, as well as cross-correlated with totally different lines of measurement. One study, to pick a random example among many, broke the data down between windy days and calm days, as the urban heat island effect dramatically diminishes on windy days. The calm results were then compared with the windy results to see if they reached the same conclusion.

      Of course, it should be obvious that Watts is wrong just by even a rudimentary look at the surface warming trends. Notice where they're strongest, generally? Sparsely populated areas. We're supposed to believe that the extreme warming of Siberian or Canadian tundra is due to a "urban heat island effect" not visible in, for example, New York, Tokyo, London or Los Angeles?

      Needless to say, you don't just have to judge based on your eyes; this has been statistically analyzed and published as well.

      --
      "... Sean Hannity, whose surgery to remove those bolts from his neck was apparently successful, ..."
    6. Re:Who cares what it said? by Troed · · Score: 1

      Of course, it should be obvious that Watts is wrong just by even a rudimentary look at the surface warming trends. Notice where they're strongest, generally? Sparsely populated areas. We're supposed to believe that the extreme warming of Siberian or Canadian tundra is due to a "urban heat island effect" not visible in, for example, New York, Tokyo, London or Los Angeles?

      From the press release (didn't you say you read it?):


      Other findings include, but are not limited to:

      * Poorly sited station trends are adjusted sharply upward, and well sited stations are adjusted upward to match the already-adjusted poor stations.
      * Well sited rural stations show a warming nearly three times greater after NOAA adjustment is applied.

    7. Re:Who cares what it said? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm still trying to figure out why he thinks that a systematic error in measurement (if I understand his claims correctly) negates trending data.

    8. Re:Who cares what it said? by Rei · · Score: 3, Informative

      Wow, he managed to get one through in 2011? Totally missed that. Probably because it actually doesn't say what he's been claiming in non-peer-reviewed research:

      Temperature trend estimates vary according to site classification, with poor siting leading to an overestimate of minimum temperature trends and an underestimate of maximum temperature trends, resulting in particular in a substantial difference in estimates of the diurnal temperature range trends. The opposite-signed differences of maximum and minimum temperature trends are similar in magnitude, so that the overall mean temperature trends are nearly identical across site classifications.

      Which had already been determined. I'm amazed that Watts was willing to put his name on a paper that basically undercuts his entire premise and says the same thing as papers he's been railing against for ages. Check out the lead author's summary of the paper, in particular the Q and A section. Although my favorite quote is:

      we found that the global average surface temperature may be higher than what has been reported by NCDC and others as a result in the bias in the landscape area where the observing sites are situated.

      Wow, Watts, you sure shot things out of the park with that one!

      --
      "... Sean Hannity, whose surgery to remove those bolts from his neck was apparently successful, ..."
    9. Re:Who cares what it said? by Rei · · Score: 1

      In the one paper Watts' name is on that's been published (see above), they actually reach the conclusion that there is no statistical difference in means between poor and good stations according to Watts' own dataset.

      --
      "... Sean Hannity, whose surgery to remove those bolts from his neck was apparently successful, ..."
    10. Re:Who cares what it said? by Rei · · Score: 3, Informative

      Which are, of course, un-reviewed claims, and totally distort the picture (the reason for the adjustments and how they're tested was just discussed in the post right above yours - to sum up, people looking at the GISS dataset aren't idiots and know about the various ways station data can be biased, and have automated algorithms to detect and correct for bias - algorithms which have been rigorously tested by peer-reviewed research, and it should be noted, actually yield a lower warming trend than the raw data, which also shows a greater rural warming trend than urban).

      --
      "... Sean Hannity, whose surgery to remove those bolts from his neck was apparently successful, ..."
    11. Re:Who cares what it said? by Troed · · Score: 1

      I think the point of the paper is that using new information, Leroy 2010, the way adjustments should be made becomes different. You referencing algorithms that do not reflect the conclusions from Leroy does not in any way disprove that.

      Why are you so hostile towards science?

    12. Re:Who cares what it said? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the point of the paper is that using new information, Leroy 2010, the way adjustments should be made becomes different. You referencing algorithms that do not reflect the conclusions from Leroy does not in any way disprove that.

      And I think the paper is a shill worthy of mockery and derision. You know, until it's peer reviewed, like in Teh Science!

      Why are you so hostile towards science?

      OMG, Watts is science personified now!? Who knew!

    13. Re:Who cares what it said? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's a press release. Which lies about how homogenization is actually done. The homogenization process isn't secret, there's been a ton of academic work done on the problem, freely available to everyone to read.

      Including Watts. Who, quite clearly, hasn't bothered.

    14. Re:Who cares what it said? by pastafazou · · Score: 1

      are you kidding me? You dismiss an article completely, simply because it's not peer-reviewed? What about the BEST paper by Muller, has it passed peer review?

    15. Re:Who cares what it said? by proslack · · Score: 1

      Well, for starters all the charts and figures have been omitted from the pdf. Makes it kind of hard to trust/verify what he says.

      --


      Floating in the black seas of infinity without a paddle.
    16. Re:Who cares what it said? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Science improves methods all the time. In 2010, the WMO developed a new method for ranking thermometer sites. This involves measuring the total surface area of heatsinks near the thermometer (which seems pretty clear is a good idea). Watts decided to apply this new method to national weather measurements.

      The idea of the paper is very good, and isn't Watts' idea. The only question is whether Watts did his accounting correctly. If he did, the result will be very interesting indeed (since the Muller Berkeley paper used Watts' older data, before the WMO methodology was introduced).

      Note that after this, there are still known problems with the terrestrial temperature record; it doesn't take into account shade, or vegetation, both of which can affect the measurements. The only question is whether those two factors are variable enough to affect the overall trend.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    17. Re:Who cares what it said? by segfault_0 · · Score: 1

      Science is *true or false* when its done.

      Science is *fit for publication* after review.

      You conflate the two issues and it weakens your point. Your position fears that premature publication will engender an idiotic public to harbor poor conclusions -- as if you could somehow make the public smart by ensuring that the conversation is guarded by gatekeepers.

      The world you insist on, where everything assumption uttered is peer-reviewed and our best possible information, does not exist.

      Grow up and calm down.

      --

      I was crazy back when being crazy really meant something. (Charles Manson)
    18. Re:Who cares what it said? by FitForTheSun · · Score: 2

      Um, no. We don't keep investigating the claims of nincompoops and fraudsters. If the boy has cried wolf too many times in the past, then sorry, the village can't be bothered to go look for the wolf this time. If Watts wanted scientific credibility, then he should have demonstrated scientific integrity in the past. We don't have time to repeatedly debunk nonsense from the same guy over and over.

    19. Re:Who cares what it said? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not having read the article, the paper, or Leroy 2010, but having read the rest of the page, it appears that this author intermixes citations of peer-reviewed research papers with non-peer-reviewed research papers. Ignoring the various motives of doing so, doing this without pointing out that fact, or annotating each source as peer-reviewed or not is a huge intellectual misstep. Now, if I were a climate scientist having to deal with every nutjob in existence wanting me to review their work, I would not do so until the proper annotations had been made, or the non-peer-reviewed citations had been removed. But, not being a climate scientist, my point boils down to this: has Leroy 2010 been peer-reviewed by highly respected climate scientists? If not, then why should anybody consider it, or anything that references it, a scientific work?

    20. Re:Who cares what it said? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it appears that this author intermixes citations of peer-reviewed research papers with non-peer-reviewed research papers

      That would be the IPCC reports you're talking about I guess?

      As for Leroy 2010, it's official WMO guidelines.

    21. Re:Who cares what it said? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Show me a peer reviewed paper that argues the other side. All those papers have been deridded, the authors dismissed, or demoted, and have had their funds limited. So show me one that has sucessfully argued and been accepted for review. They end as a cutting on the floor of history. But the massagers continue to flurish, and say more outlandish unproven, unreviewed and made up stuff for you climatologists too drool over. My god, stick your head outside every once and a while, get away from your desk and see what your bunch is doing to the world, now talk of artificially cooling the USA, Chinas been modifying their weather, changing the patterns around the USA, No our fools want to do the same.

    22. Re:Who cares what it said? by ToddInSF · · Score: 1

      Peer-review is flawless and perfect.

      Come on, not everybody is so fucking gullible.

  8. Odd when you consider how much whining by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Odd when you consider how much whining about how the data CRU et al had should be released NOW from you deniers.

    Watts had said he would publish a preliminary paper when 60% complete. When 60% complete, Watts diodn't publish. NASA took the data WATTS had collected (you know, the "raw data") and did the work.

    Showing that there was a slightly higher warming trend if you took Watts' "best sited" stations than if you included them all.

    Which was why Watts had clammed up.

    (PS Watts has had to massage the figures. He openly admits he made "corrections" which to every denier was "proof" the CRU/NASA et al were "cooking the books" on the data.)

    1. Re:Odd when you consider how much whining by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      another oh dear, the CRU still has not released the untampered with data. Just the modified data. The data massaged into the shape they wanted.

  9. Average the measurements before you take them by dargaud · · Score: 5, Informative

    Disclaimer: I did work in atmospheric science for 15 years.

    I understand all this talk about adjusting temperature results for urban sprawl around the measuring stations, but bear in mind that those stations are weather forecast stations, never intended as climatology primary source of inputs. So why don't we simply use a better designed system, such as a thermometer a couple of feet inside the ground: depending on the depth you can average out the daily thermal cycle (a few inches) or even the yearly cycles (a few feet). And there you have your reliable long therm^Hterm trends without any supercomputers or fancy models.

    --
    Non-Linux Penguins ?
    1. Re:Average the measurements before you take them by Rei · · Score: 5, Informative

      Indeed, that's why there is the (growing) Climate Reference Network. The USCRN is a smaller subset of stations which are carefully chosen in terms of siting and instrumentation and carefully monitored in a way that couldn't realistically be done with all stations. The results from the USCRN are then compared with the broader results in both localized and aggregate comparisons and used A) to help refine the adjustment algorithms used to detect and compensate for localization biases, and B) to determine the accuracy of the aggregate results.

      --
      "... Sean Hannity, whose surgery to remove those bolts from his neck was apparently successful, ..."
    2. Re:Average the measurements before you take them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are looking for historical trends. The reason they don't used buried thermocouple is that they weren't installed in the past.

    3. Re:Average the measurements before you take them by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Borehole reconstructions are routinely done and consistent with other proxies as well as with the instrumental surface record.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    4. Re:Average the measurements before you take them by Stirling+Newberry · · Score: 1

      Indeed, that's why there is the (growing) Climate Reference Network. The USCRN is a smaller subset of stations which are carefully chosen in terms of siting and instrumentation and carefully monitored in a way that couldn't realistically be done with all stations. The results from the USCRN are then compared with the broader results in both localized and aggregate comparisons and used A) to help refine the adjustment algorithms used to detect and compensate for localization biases, and B) to determine the accuracy of the aggregate results.

      Mod this one up if you have the points.

    5. Re:Average the measurements before you take them by Stirling+Newberry · · Score: 1

      Borehole reconstructions are routinely done and consistent with other proxies as well as with the instrumental surface record.

      Good point.

    6. Re:Average the measurements before you take them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And Watts ignores the USCRN in his "paper", despite the fact that these stations *are* the best out there.

    7. Re:Average the measurements before you take them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't is a little suspect to simply accept CRN when NOAA clearly has a problem applying proper adjustments to their previous station data?

    8. Re:Average the measurements before you take them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh yeah, USCRN stations are sooo good, they put them in parking lots: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2007/11/23/tucson-update/

    9. Re:Average the measurements before you take them by jmorris42 · · Score: 1

      > So why don't we simply use a better designed system...

      Because it would work. But it would not serve the political needs of the warmers. They need action NOW. Your proposal would instantly freeze any action to reorder civilization to shift control over pretty much all energy (and thereby industry, transport, most everything) into the hands of a small elite superior cadre of international 'experts' while we waited decades for results.

      The idea our actions are changing the environment is fairly intuitive, but our level of scientific knowledge, records and computational ability are utterly inadequate to applying the scientific method to understanding it in anything like the level of detail needed to have a 'consensus' on it. Therefore all we are left with is faith based belief calling itself science. Which just happens to recommend the deepest desires in the hearts of those making the policy recomendations. Total coincidence.

      --
      Democrat delenda est
    10. Re:Average the measurements before you take them by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      Yup, the climate change industry is simply an economic evolution of Catholic guilt.

      Evil supplicants, see what vague, impossible to disprove tormets thou wilt suffer in some indeterminate future as punishment for your sins, yeah, unto the seventh generation. Now, crawl on your knees, crawl and obtain your indulgences. $20 each, buy three get one free, hurry, hurry, we can't hold these craaaazy prices for long.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    11. Re:Average the measurements before you take them by rmstar · · Score: 1

      The idea our actions are changing the environment is fairly intuitive, but our level of scientific knowledge, records and computational ability are utterly inadequate to applying the scientific method to understanding it in anything like the level of detail needed to have a 'consensus' on it.

      What's missing for a consensus is people pulling their heads out of their asses.

      Therefore all we are left with is faith based belief calling itself science.

      Not at all. But you have no idea what you are talking about. Do you even know what a confidence interval is?

      Which just happens to recommend the deepest desires in the hearts of those making the policy recomendations. Total coincidence.

      This is bullshit.There is no clear consensus on what should be done about the warming among people who understand that it is real. Could be going all electric with lots of nuclear plants, could be crawling back up the trees, etc.

      The deniers, however, want to keep doing things just as before, and that perfectly maches what they believe. And that's not a coincidence.

    12. Re:Average the measurements before you take them by jmorris42 · · Score: 1

      > Do you even know what a confidence interval is?

      When the data going to the climate models is of such short duration as to be meaninless or is outright garbage in the first place and there is no way to even test a one hundred year prediction in less than a century (should be sorta obvious) it is not even clear what place a confidence interval would even have in this discussion. If we know the inputs are dubious and incomplete and the outputs are untestable I don't even know where science fits into this discussion. I'm not challenging a particular paper, model or result. I question the idea.

      --
      Democrat delenda est
    13. Re:Average the measurements before you take them by Rei · · Score: 2

      I'm sorry, but do you want *no* stations in urban areas, even though there *are* urban areas in the US? How do you propose the validity of data from stations in urban areas be evaluated without reference stations in urban areas?

      --
      "... Sean Hannity, whose surgery to remove those bolts from his neck was apparently successful, ..."
    14. Re:Average the measurements before you take them by Rei · · Score: 1

      "Clearly" according to what? Watts's claims which never pass peer-review?

      --
      "... Sean Hannity, whose surgery to remove those bolts from his neck was apparently successful, ..."
    15. Re:Average the measurements before you take them by rmstar · · Score: 1

      When the data going to the climate models is of such short duration as to be meaninless or is outright garbage in the first place

      That is simply not true about the data that is being used.

      and there is no way to even test a one hundred year prediction in less than a century (should be sorta obvious)

      The only really conclusive way of testing a prediction is whether it is true after the fact. If that is your standard, then you cannot be sure of the sun raising tomorrow, nor of anything else that isn't already history.

      Instead, you can test whether a prediction makes sense, sometimes indirectly. There is still a risk of error, but that is something one has to live with to be able to make useful predictions.

      it is not even clear what place a confidence interval would even have in this discussion.

      I was just wondering if you had any shadow of an idea of what is involved in rational thinking and inference under incomplete information (which means - under all interesting situations).

      If we know the inputs are dubious and incomplete and the outputs are untestable I don't even know where science fits into this discussion.

      With that standards, most of the successful branches of science and their applications would be out of the question. You couldn't build airplanes nor could you take any medicine.

      The way this works, instead, is that you use all the information you can in the smartest possible way to make an assessment of how things can be expected to develop, and test whether this prediction makes sense with what is available. Then you make a decision based on that, taking into account risk, and how confident you are of the prediction. The data, as well as the statistics behind modern climate science may not be perfect, but they are pretty damn good. And they predict catastrophic warming due to the significant co2 release by man with a very high confidence. I'd say it is reasonable to act.

    16. Re:Average the measurements before you take them by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      Data, in particular temperature records are not data that is input into climate models. Climate models attempt to model the physics of the atmosphere and its interaction with the land and oceans. Generally they are given a starting state and set loose to see what the results are. The only input is various realistic scenarios that simulate changes that would be seen in the real world such as changes in the level of CO2. Everything else is internally generated.

      It's kind of hard to take you seriously when you make it obvious you don't know what you're talking about. Here for your edification are two FAQs on climate models by one of lead authors of the NASA/GISS ModelE GCM:

      http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2008/11/faq-on-climate-models/
      http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2009/01/faq-on-climate-models-part-ii/

    17. Re:Average the measurements before you take them by dargaud · · Score: 1

      Because it would work. But it would not serve the political needs of the warmers. They need action NOW. Your proposal would instantly [...]

      Hold it right there. It would instantly nothing ! I thought the reason why we don't use the system I described was so obvious that I didn't feel the need to flesh it out. But apparently it went WHOOSH right over your head. So here it is: we don't change the measurement system NOW simply because we'd need to wait a long time before any trend emerges. We already have over a century of data from meteorological stations and we can't toss it off just because a better system comes along (and as another replier to my original post stated, those long term stations do exist now, so they just add to the quality of the samples).

      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
    18. Re:Average the measurements before you take them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The way this works, instead, is that you use all the information you can in the smartest possible way to make an assessment of how things can be expected to develop, and test whether this prediction makes sense with what is available. Then you make a decision based on that, taking into account risk, and how confident you are of the prediction.

      And then you state that the science is settled, and label anyone that questions the (admittedly non-definitive) conclusions as a closed minded flat-earther croney of big oil and require every nation to completely uproot its entire infrastructure and economic model or face taxes and fines.

    19. Re:Average the measurements before you take them by Feyshtey · · Score: 1

      Could you please provide papers describing why the Earth has cooled and warmed for thousands of years in 150 year cycles (on average)? Or is the science on that not definitive.... ?

      Point being, if science cant state why things have done in the past on a predictable and recurring pattern precisely what they are doing now , then why can they state the cause of current change that falls into the same historic cycle is something that has never before existed?

      --
      "But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it,..." - Nancy Pelosi
    20. Re:Average the measurements before you take them by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      Could you please cite papers describing that the Earth has cooled and warmed for thousands of years on a 150 year (on average) cycle? That's not something I've ever heard of.

      At best to find global temperatures as high as they are now you have to go back to the Medieval Warm Period around 1,000 years ago and more likely you have to go back to the Holocene Optimum 8,000 years ago when the state of the Milankovitch Cycles favored a warmer planet. You might even have to go back to the previous interglacial period over 100,000 years ago when sea level was 20-40 feet higher than it is now. Also you need to show how what is happening now matches the patterns of earlier warming cycles. Hint, it doesn't much. If it did scientists would have a better handle on how things will change as the current warming period progresses.

      I did a quick search and found this FAQ answer that discusses current changes in relation to past ones.

  10. Re:Oh no! The "Deniers" !!! You idiot. by Rei · · Score: 2

    Of course the climate is always changing.

    The issue is not *that* the climate is changing. It's the *rate* of change that's the issue. And sorry, but choosing between an AC posting a random website, and "the scientific process", I'm going to go with "the scientific process".

    --
    "... Sean Hannity, whose surgery to remove those bolts from his neck was apparently successful, ..."
  11. Re:Which ones are the trolls? by Stirling+Newberry · · Score: 1
    Fracking produces natural gas, it will have only a marginal effect on peak oil production.

    Of course we all know that using more capital letters makes your argument more valid.

  12. First Problem by Stirling+Newberry · · Score: 3, Informative
    If siting were the problem, then temperature variance would track suburban sprawl and urbanization closely, as it would be a systematic error. It doesn't. Instead it tracks mountain regions with greatest snow cap loss, as would be predicted by AGW.

    AGW wins again on the data.

    1. Re:First Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The claim is that the data has been improperly adjusted. You can't use the adjusted data set to disprove that claim. See the part at the top about "observations have been adjusted..."?

    2. Re:First Problem by Stirling+Newberry · · Score: 1

      Wrong. The claim is that there is a systematic error, and that will show up in the data set. That the claimed error does not show up in the data set indicates that Watts' hypothesis that poor station citing is the cause is incorrect. According to his hypothesis, we should see a statistically significant increase in warming associated with areas where siting has become worse. We do not. As previous commenters have pointed out, Watts was a co-author on a paper that came to the opposite conclusion.

    3. Re:First Problem by Sollord · · Score: 2

      The issue as other posters have pointed is that the paper points out an adjustment error. How does one adjust well sited stations showing and average warmign trend of 0.155C/decade and poorly sited stations showing an average a 0.248 C/decade trend into a fully adjusted 0.309 C/decade trend? Is badly placed sites show an average of 0.248C of warming so when I average that with the .155C of warring shown by good sites so how would one come up with an ever higher total average of .309C? I mean something has to be wrong to come up with an average great then the two temperatures put into it

    4. Re:First Problem by Stirling+Newberry · · Score: 1
      And as the data shows, the predicted systematic error doesn't appear.

      i.e. Watts has made an error in his unpublished paper that he somehow failed to make in his published paper. I eagerly await his retraction of his peer reviewed results any day now.

      To break it down into grunts: if siting were the problem, then we would see warming trends exacerbated in areas where siting makes a difference, we don't. Instead the data shows uniform increases in areas far from human inhabitation, where stations are not going to be affected by siting.

      Better luck next planet, petrolls.

    5. Re:First Problem by Sollord · · Score: 2

      Uh... The issue isn't the warming but how much real warming there is as most as in all math I know of one does not get .309 from averaging .155 and .248 but I'm not using special man-made global climate change math like you obviously are. My math and logic would indicate something of an average of .201 C/decade in warming or a max average of .248 C/decade if we ignore all the well positioned sites as one does not get a higher average using two lower averages.

    6. Re:First Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Again, an NOAA reference. The claim being made is that NOAA is implying improper adjustments, so why use NOAA material to reftute a complaint about the NOAA adjustments? Seems biased at the very least.

    7. Re:First Problem by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      It looks more like the greatest temperature rise is located in the interior of the continent, away from oceans. It doesn't really co-localize very well with mountains.

    8. Re:First Problem by jonabbey · · Score: 1

      Watts is, in fact, claiming that the new Leroy (2012) method invalidates his 2011 paper.

    9. Re:First Problem by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Your link doesn't show what you think it does. The map in that link takes the mean of all data from 1981 to 2010, and compares it to temperatures in June 2012. So all it is showing is that in a single month, some areas are colder than the previous two decades, other areas are warmer.

      This can tell you nothing about longer term warming trends, nor about thermometer quality. It is merely a snapshot of a single month.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    10. Re:First Problem by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      That's because the oceans have a lot of thermal inertia and moderate the land temperatures along their shores.

    11. Re:First Problem by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      That was my thought, then I realized that the graph is showing a little bit lower than normal temperatures along the coasts. Something more complicated must be going on.

    12. Re:First Problem by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      Perhaps the higher temperatures inland cause greater strength of convection (rising air) thus increasing the onshore flow of wind.

  13. The problem was noticed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    So they are claiming that a simple mistake has been made that has the effect of overestimated warming by three times, and that everyone doing this research previously has made this same mistake, and that, despite all of the arguments surrounding climate science and the instrumental temperature record, nobody noticed it yet?

    For a long time people have been pointing out that ground based met. stations were showing much more warming than met. balloons and satellites. The urban heat island effect has also been well known.

    The problem is that some people have willfully ignored the instrument problems because it suited their agenda.

    Watts noticed the specific problem with station siting and he, along with many others, has been documenting it. That part is uncontroversial. Using the methods of Leroy 2010, Watts is attempting to quantify the problem. He isn't a scientist and isn't used to publishing. That may be a problem for him. On the other hand, he had help with this paper and I expect that his co-authors will improve its quality a lot. The paper is up on his web site and many scientists have made helpful comments. By the time it is finally submitted, it may actually be a good paper. ;-)

    1. Re:The problem was noticed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Except that they have not, in any way, sure. Satellite observations have repeatedly confirmed ground-based measurements. A new NASA report is due out shortly on exactly this subject.

    2. Re:The problem was noticed by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      Yeah because Watts doesn't have an agenda *eye roll*

    3. Re:The problem was noticed by BStroms · · Score: 1

      Except the paper isn't trying to disprove that their has been a warming trend, only showing that in the US at least, that trend has been exaggerated. Satellite evidence may actually support that fact. Here are the trends for surface based measurements, and two satellite measurements since 1979.

      RSS +0.137 C/decade.
      UAH +0.136C/decade
      Surface Temperatures +0.17 C/decade

      That's 24% more warming in the surface data sets. In addition, both satellite records show 1998 being the hottest year since modern records began, while the surface temperature records show several years since than being hotter. Now the paper calls for a much larger bias in the trend, but not on the global level. So without looking at any of the data, it's at least a plausible conclusion that a much more highly inaccurate US data set could be responsible for most of the global difference from the satellite record.

    4. Re:The problem was noticed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Watts did nothing of the sort. Using photographic tricks Watts willfully distorted the siting of stations, when caught Watts started using Cooperative Weather Observer Program (CWOP) sites as examples of of problems, unfortunately CWOP sites aren't used for climate observations. A paper by Matthew J. Menne, Claude N. Williams Jr. and Michael A. Palecki (JOURNAL OF GEOPHYSICAL RESEARCH, VOL. 115, D11108, doi:10.1029/2009JD013094, 2010) used the data collected by Watts and surfacestations.org to determine the reliability of the station siting. Using Watts data Menne et. al. (2009) showed that by including badly sited stations you REDUCED THE AMOUNT OF WARMING. If you used only stations DEEMED GOOD BY WATTS the linear trend was 0.35 (±0.11), using all stations the linear trend was 0.32 (±0.11) Watts ADMITTED IN A PEER-REVIEWED paper titled "Analysis of the impacts of station exposure on the U.S. Historical Climatology Network temperatures and temperature trends" (Souleymane Fall, Anthony Watts, John Nielsen Gammon, Evan Jones, Dev Niyogi, John R. Christy,5 and Roger A. Pielke Sr., JOURNAL OF GEOPHYSICAL RESEARCH, VOL. 116, D14120, doi:10.1029/2010JD015146, 2011) that Menne et. al. (2009) ANALYSIS WAS CORRECT.

      On March 6, 2011 Watts posted on his web site about the Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature (BEST) Project:

      "I’m prepared to accept whatever result they produce, even if it proves my premise wrong. I’m taking this bold step because the method has promise. So let’s not pay attention to the little yippers who want to tear it down before they even see the results."

      Suddenly when the head of the BEST project says that the Earth's land has warmed by 1.5C over the past 250 years and that "humans are almost entirely the cause" on Sunday, Watts has to shutdown his site proclaiming “WUWT publishing suspended – major announcement coming” and then suddenly he has a "paper" published by the Heartland Institute that says that not only is BEST wrong so is everybody's work!

      Watts denounced Muller, the head of BEST project because announced results before the work was peer-reviewed yet he is doing exactly the same thing.

      Watts is just a poor pathetic attention seeker who is afraid he will lose the income from clicks on his web site.

    5. Re:The problem was noticed by wooferhound · · Score: 1

      When looking for temperature Trends it should not matter if temperature recording stations are on a bad site or not. What you are concerned about is, are the averages going up or down. It does not matter where the site is as long as the readings are accurate.

      --
      We are Dead Stars looking back Up at the Sky
    6. Re:The problem was noticed by M.+Baranczak · · Score: 1

      It matters if the site's surroundings change. Say you have a station that used to be in the woods 40 years ago, and now is surrounded by parking lots and office buildings. It would show a temperature rise, even if the rise was localized to a small area.

      But I have a hard time believing that nobody in the field has thought of this yet.

    7. Re:The problem was noticed by MrNiceguy_KS · · Score: 1

      One problem with this is urban sprawl. A recording station that was next to a field 10 years ago might be next to a strip mall today.

      --
      Redundancy is good And also good.
    8. Re:The problem was noticed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed, it has turned out that the BEST papers just recently reported failed peer review.

    9. Re:The problem was noticed by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      Yeah because Watts doesn't have an agenda *eye roll*

      Oh, he has an "agenda"? You seem to know something - what is Watt's agenda? Who is paying him? What does he stand to gain? What is his ultimate goal, and how does this further his ambitions?

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    10. Re:The problem was noticed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't? lol

    11. Re:The problem was noticed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No the BEST papers have not yet failed. McIntyre "claims" a paper failed peer-review. That's like saying the fox reported no loss of hens in the chicken house with feathers clinging to its mouth.

    12. Re:The problem was noticed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Satellite measurements were calibrated (at least initially) by ground stations, so there's some circular reasoning going on. That's not to suggest that the trend is incorrect, only that suggesting satellites are accurate because they confirm adjusted ground station measurements is not a valid way of accurately determining spatially averaged temperature trends, as meaningless as they may or may not be.

      What satellites are essential for, and what we hope their calibration was good for, is telling us what 70% of the earth's surface temperature is... namely, the oceans.

    13. Re:The problem was noticed by JDG1980 · · Score: 1

      Who is paying him?

      Watts is supported by the "Heartland Institute", a shadowy sockpuppet that represents dirty-energy companies, tobacco companies, and other assorted malefactors. (The Institute refuses to give details on its funding.)

    14. Re:The problem was noticed by jvillain · · Score: 1
      Good post but I would also add that Australia suffers from the same problem of having the records manipulated upward for no apparent reason. Link

      Because we don't have air temperature sensors at sea we rely on land sensors and then extrapolate to cover the 7/10 of the world that is ocean. Australia due to it's location has an effect far in excess of it's size. Combine that with the US measurements and the two of them point to some thing very wrong. You can't have two regions where the world doesn't heat as much as the rest of the world over long periods and blame the whole thing on CO2. The physics doesn't work that way.

    15. Re:The problem was noticed by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Everyone who doesn't believe as I do or attempts to disprove the words of the great people I believe in have an agenda. Even if I can't prove the connection, the blaspheme being spouted is enough proof..

      Fuck, how do I turn off the sarcasm switch?

    16. Re:The problem was noticed by jvillain · · Score: 1

      I guess this means you can't find any problems with the actual data or science then if this is what you have resulted to.

    17. Re:The problem was noticed by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      I have to LOL at this complaint. $44,000 doesn't really "fund" very much, less than Al Gore gets for a single speaking engagement. He's probably lucky to have gotten even that.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    18. Re:The problem was noticed by owski · · Score: 1

      But I have a hard time believing that nobody in the field has thought of this yet.

      They're well aware of it, the question is whether their adjustments to account for it are correct. That's where the maths get tricky.

    19. Re:The problem was noticed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Quick, everybody!

      Watts is bad, mmmOK?

      Put your fingers in your ears and go La-La-La-La....!!!!

    20. Re:The problem was noticed by Troed · · Score: 1

      The BEST papers have indeed failed peer review. From one of the reviewer's own mouth:

      I submitted my review at the end of March. The authors had made very few changes and had not addressed any of the methodological problems, so I recommended the paper not be published. I do not know what the journal's decision was, but it is 4 months later and I can find no evidence on the BEST website that this or any other BEST project paper has been accepted for publication. [Update July 30: JGR told me "This paper was rejected and the editor recommended that the author resubmit it as a new paper."]

      http://www.rossmckitrick.com/

  14. Anthony Watts is a well-known denier by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No one should believe anything he says. It will all be wrong. He probably also believes in creationism.

    The science is settled, and he should be charged with endangering the human race.

  15. Re:Which ones are the trolls? by barv · · Score: 0

    Learn a bit of Engineering.

    It costs a few hundred dollars to convert a Gasoline (petrol) engine to use natural gas. A car built for only natural gas would be cleaner and cheaper to run than a gasoline engine, and most probably cost the same and require less maintainence.

    Oh sorry. Silly me. If you or any alarmists knew any Engineering you wouldn't be alarmists.

  16. NCDC was precisely that. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, for the USA.

    Watts, as usual, ignores them since they accord with the station record.

    What's really weird is that if stations are left out, i'ts claimed fraud (see the Russian denier group who complained that their crappy data was being discarded), and if it's left in, it's claimed fraud (see this fluff piece).

  17. Surfacestation? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sounds like a good name for a Microsoft concept store where you can buy their rumored iPad killer.

  18. "climate always changes" become "we can't" how? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If climate always changes, how does that mean we can't?

    One reason climate chagnges is the solar constant changes.

    The solar constant is lower than normal, but we're still hotter than normal, so it isn't the sun.

    One reason climate changes is greenhouse gasses become more or less prevalent.

    And we can change the concentration of greehouse gasses.

  19. History Contradicts You by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    There are pre-industrialization periods in which the temperature of Earth was hotter than it is now. Explain the differences and then I might become a believer.

    1. Re:History Contradicts You by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      How to explain the difference? Among other things different stages of Milankovitch Cycles, different configurations of the continents due to plate tectonics, much higher levels of CO2 before it got sequestered in the fossil fuels we're digging up now. Of those the Milankovitch Cycles are the most immediately effective and probably explain the warmth of the early Holocene.

  20. A low point for Slashdot. by djirk · · Score: 0

    An article about Anthony Watts? This is a low point for Slashdot.

    1. Re:A low point for Slashdot. by operagost · · Score: 1

      Because Bill Nye is a real climatologist.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
  21. How many cities in Antarctica? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To explain the 'science'. The weather stations were cited randomly. They observed temperatures. Over the years those temperatures have increased. The anti-global warming lobby claims it's due to urban expansion: towns growing till they surround the temperature measuring stations causing localized Urban Heat Islands. UHI is the effect of citys being warming that countryside.
    Thus they claim, it's not because the planet is getting warming, rather that the newly expanded city is warmer and affecting the weather stations.

    How many UHI's are there in Antarctica that's causing the ice-sheets to melt?

    Why is the temperature increasing in places where there are still no cities?

    Why do satellite images show the warming over the whole planet?

    This has been quantified and found to be minimal. But even a quick mental check, 'are glaciers melting/are there cities where there are glaciers' test reveals the bogus nature of the claim.

    1. Re:How many cities in Antarctica? by owski · · Score: 1

      Try reading at least the paper's summary. It's not saying that temperatures haven't risen, only that they haven't risen as far as claimed. Big difference.

  22. A goddamn WEATHERMAN funded by Heartland by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A goddamn WEATHERMAN funded by Heartland, publishing a not-peer-reviewed paper that HE HIMSELF describes the process for thusly (emphasis mine):

    After Muller could not find strong signal that we knew must be there by physics of heat sinksand neither could we in Fall et al 2011, we went looking, and discovered the new Leroy 2010 classification system and WMO ISO approval. We knew it would take a lot of work to get old metadatabase into shape. And so it began.

    Source: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/07/29/backstory-on-the-new-surfacestations-paper/

    Yeah, nothing fishy here at all...

    1. Re:A goddamn WEATHERMAN funded by Heartland by muecksteiner · · Score: 1

      It's a close thing, though. If he had said something like "after we could not find a strong signal that, based on our hypothesis, we had reason to assume to be there", it would be a description of a reasonably scientific approach. Maybe, just maybe, being the amateur that he is, he just got the formulation badly wrong, and actually did it reasonably right.

      After all, assuming, for the sake of argument, that something is the case, and then testing for it, is a way how it can be legitimately done. You develop a hypothesis, try to figure out what the implications of said hypothesis would be if it were true, and then go looking for signs that match these implications. While making very, very sure that you are not falling victim to some sort of confirmation bias on the way (i.e. seeing stuff you are looking for because you want it to be there, and not because it is actually there).

      Personally, I have no reason to defend Mr. Watts, nor am I convinced he is right. But being a professional scientist, I am both fairly shocked by the (almost) blind trust which is placed in the peer review process by the users of this forum (once you have seen it from the inside, you typically no longer trust it that much), and also how most people seem to assume that only the professionals can ever be right.

      Is Mr. Watts wrong? Perhaps. Probably. But please don't judge people by paper form alone, lest you be unpleasantly surprised at some point.

    2. Re:A goddamn WEATHERMAN funded by Heartland by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "...and also how most people seem to assume that only the professionals can ever be right...." ...and also how most Slashdotters seem to assume that only the AGW supporters can ever be right...

      There. Fixed that for you...

    3. Re:A goddamn WEATHERMAN funded by Heartland by muecksteiner · · Score: 1

      "...and also how most people seem to assume that only the professionals can ever be right...." ...and also how most Slashdotters seem to assume that only the AGW supporters can ever be right...

      There. Fixed that for you...

      Don't be unfair. I never said I believed Mr. Watts. But I do find the way how everyone here has an automated negative response worthy of Pavlov's dogs to non peer reviewed work worrying.

      Especially if you factor in the systemic problem that if an amateur attempts to do science, he or she will in all likelihood not be very good at communicating their results in the "proper", dispassionate lingo of the professionals. Or in other words: regardless of whether they are right or not (!), chances are high that even at the best of times, the amateur will not come across in a way that is particularly reassuring to professionals.

      The only way to deal with something like the stuff that Mr. Watts is claiming is to dissect it, and, if his theory is found wanting, to calmly say something like "it's crap because of $foo and $bar" (with $foo and $bar being rational arguments that can be readily verified by a reasonably competent person). Discrediting it because it has not appeared in a peer-reviewed journal is actively dangerous, since that sort of dismissal just fans the fire of "alternate science", and the stupid sort of AGW deniers.

  23. Rei by Anynomous+Coward · · Score: 1

    Looking at her diarrhea of whining posts, she really has her panties in a bunch about this.

    --
    I'm not a coward by any name.
    1. Re:Rei by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rei is a girl?

      That explains the PMS type posts!

      Someone buy that bitch a huge ass dildo. That will calm her down.

  24. You mean Einstein? Hardly no credentials by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Despite the popular meme, Einstein was highly educated and already known:

    Albert attended a Catholic elementary school from the age of five for three years. Later, at the age of eight, Einstein was transferred to the Luitpold Gymnasium where he received advanced primary and secondary school education until he left Germany seven years later.[11] ...
    When the family moved to Pavia, Einstein stayed in Munich to finish his studies at the Luitpold Gymnasium. His father intended for him to pursue electrical engineering, but Einstein clashed with authorities and resented the school's regimen and teaching method. He later wrote that the spirit of learning and creative thought were lost in strict rote learning. At the end of December 1894, he travelled to Italy to join his family in Pavia, convincing the school to let him go by using a doctor's note.[19] It was during his time in Italy that he wrote a short essay with the title "On the Investigation of the State of the Ether in a Magnetic Field."[20][21] ...
    In late summer 1895, at the age of sixteen, Einstein sat the entrance examinations for the Swiss Federal Polytechnic in Zurich (later the Eidgenössische Polytechnische Schule). He failed to reach the required standard in several subjects, but obtained exceptional grades in physics and mathematics.[22] On the advice of the Principal of the Polytechnic, he attended the Aargau Cantonal School in Aarau, Switzerland, in 1895-96 to complete his secondary schooling. ...
    In September 1896, he passed the Swiss Matura with mostly good grades (including a top grade of 6 in physics and mathematical subjects, on a scale of 1-6),[25] and, though only seventeen, enrolled in the four-year mathematics and physics teaching diploma program at the ETH Zurich. ...
    In 1900, Einstein was awarded the Zurich Polytechnic teaching diploma, but Mari failed the examination with a poor grade in the mathematics component, theory of functions.[26] ...
    After graduating, Einstein spent almost two frustrating years searching for a teaching post, but a former classmate's father helped him secure a job in Bern, at the Federal Office for Intellectual Property, the patent office, as an assistant examiner.[36] He evaluated patent applications for electromagnetic devices. In 1903, Einstein's position at the Swiss Patent Office became permanent,

  25. Surfacestations ? by rossdee · · Score: 1

    WTF is a Surfacestation ? Is it the workstation version of Microsofts new tablet?

  26. They do, thermal satellite imaging by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    They do, they also use thermal satellite imaging, and sea buoys of course, which show the same trends.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_temperature_measurements

  27. Re:Oh no! The "Deniers" !!! You idiot. by risom · · Score: 1

    why did you call it 'climate change', by the way? The climate is ALWAYS changing

    As has been stated before: "climate change" was a spin introduced by Frank Luntz (a Republican "political consultant"), to make global warming sound nicer.

  28. Maybe I missed it, but... by Brewster+Jennings · · Score: 2

    I see a picture of what I assume is the "worst of the worst" monitoring stations at surfacestations.org compared to a good station. What I don't see is the methodology or the formula for determining the temperature error. You could easily test AC impact by simply setting up a second site and turning off the air, for instance.

    I could just as easily make up a formula for error based on the geographic proximity to Narnia (which had a really long winter), but that doesn't mean it would be any more accurate.

    Naturally, that sounds snarky, but NOAA already has a formula for compensating for local microclimate effects, what makes this new formula better?

    It may be important to note that the "incorrect" graph on the surfacestations website looks different than the one at NASA, which you can view here: http://data.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/gistemp/gistemp_station.py?id=425745000030&data_set=1&num_neighbors=1

    1. Re:Maybe I missed it, but... by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      The data for the NASA graph has a lot of missing or marked bad data points at the beginning. The Surfacestations graph somehow shows data from before 1900 that's missing in the NASA source.

    2. Re:Maybe I missed it, but... by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      What I don't see is the methodology or the formula for determining the temperature error.

      They dealt with error by dropping thermometers that were ranked poor quality.

      NOAA already has a formula for compensating for local microclimate effects, what makes this new formula better?

      NOAA, as I understand it, deals with local microclimate effects by adjusting outliers. This doesn't really tell you whether a thermometer is accurate, but hopefully it will smooth over the difference.

      The Watts method actually goes out and looks at the thermometers and uses a criteria to determine which are good. The criteria was recently developed (improved) by the World Meteorology Organization. It isn't controversial, and Watts doesn't claim it is his.

      The only question is whether Watts actually applied the methodology and criteria correctly, or if he made mistakes (possibly on purpose) in his data compilation.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  29. good post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    my co-worker's mom made $20080 the prior week. she works on the computer and got a $314600 home. All she did was get blessed and put to use the clues written on this website http://goo.gl/TyIY9

  30. Re:Watts is a dangerous denier by pastafazou · · Score: 1

    yes, he's dangerous. Silence him! And find all those that have visited his site, and have them silenced too!

  31. Self selection by jmorris42 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There is a problem when the definition of 'climatologist' is effectively 'someone who studies the effects of AGW and recommends policy to mitigate it'. A scientist should understand the proper ordering of cause and effect. A scientist would understand the difference between real debate and rigging the game to ensure a predetermined outcome.

    There is a point where the case would be settled to the point where it would be more like flat earthers wanting a seat at the table to draw maps. But we ain't even close to that sort of certainty.

    I looked at some of those 'climate models' once. Oh. My. God. A few hundred sample points to model the entire Earth? I actually saw one that crappy, the best aren't all that much better. I don't care how much calculating you do on each point, when total resolution is that low I really doubt anything useful can be taken from such a model about next week, next century isn't even a joke.

    The problem is we still don't have the ability to model anything as complicated as the Earth's climate. We don't even have good enough data to input into a model if we had one. We only have semi-reliable temp data for less than a century on most of the world, humidity, rainfall, cloudcover/sunlight and pressure data are even worse. And a century is nothing when trying to understand longterm trends. The proxies used to attempt to make up for that lack of primary data is a very rough substitute. So anyone who even tries to make definitive statements at this point should be instanly suspected of being a quack.

    Now combine with the hard reality that it is painfilly obvious to anyone who looks at the history of the 20th Century that this is a case of a solution in search of a justification and the politicization of science we are dealing with here makes perfect sense. It makes sense but it still pisses me off how easy it was to make scientists betray science in the name of power and funding. We have real problems, many of them ecological, and we need scientists we can trust to help solve them. But I don't trust em at this point. I'm as pissed as I suspect the average Catholic is at the priests molesting kids. A trusted institution turned out to be rotten to the core and in need of a major cleansing and instead getting a whitewash and a 'nothing to see here, move along.'

    --
    Democrat delenda est
    1. Re:Self selection by blueg3 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There is a problem when the definition of 'climatologist' is effectively 'someone who studies the effects of AGW and recommends policy to mitigate it'.

      There would be, but that's not the definition of a climatologist. It's also not the selection criteria to be a peer reviewer for a climatology journal. (And, for that matter, climatology journals are not the only places to publish peer-reviewed climatology papers.) It's just what you imagine the selection criteria to be, which is very different.

      I really doubt anything useful can be taken from such a model

      It's a real shame we don't have a systematic way of investigating the accuracy of a model and are forced to rely on the gut feelings (I mean, doubts) of random people on the Internet.

    2. Re:Self selection by jmorris42 · · Score: 0

      > It's a real shame we don't have a systematic way of investigating the accuracy of a model

      Exactly. If we want to test a model of a nuke we model away and then conduct an underground test once in a while to confirm the model data and usually end up refining the model. Or at least we used to. If we are modeling a new airplane design we test the model by evenually building the plane. If we are testing a weather model we get results in a few days we can use to refine the model. If we want to test a climate model we do what? Wait a hundred years and see? But we have to act NOW, no time to wait! See the problem.

      > It's just what you imagine the selection criteria to be..

      Imagine anyone without a proven, published, paper trail firmly establishing themselves in the warmer camp getting tenure at any institution reputable enough to be taken 'seriously' in the peer reviewed press. Imagine anyone getting a governent research grant without such a politically approved position. Imagine a specific research grant application that isn't setting out to help 'settle' the science. Remember that is clearly established that only government funded researchers are 'real' scientists, since accepting one dollar from industry will be used for the rest of your career to label you an industry shill, see today's slashdot discussion for proof of that. Now consider this: Heidi Cullen of The Weather Channel recommended that the AMS boot anyone out who not only doesn't follow the Party line on AGW, but that refuses to misuse their position as a meteorologist to push the government line on climatology, a related subject that we are reminded every time the subject arises here is NOT qualified to hold a disenting opinion on AGW. The remarkable thing here isn't that some idiot spouted some fascist idiocy; no the remarkable thing is the idiot wasn't condemned by all right thinking people. In such a hostile environment is it really remarkable that most 'scientists' (who if you remember your Heinlein you will know that most 'scientists' are bottle washers and button sorters anyway) keep their heads down, duckspeak the Party line and work on getting tenure and growing their empire?

      --
      Democrat delenda est
    3. Re:Self selection by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I looked at some of those 'climate models' once. Oh. My. God. A few hundred sample points to model the entire Earth? I actually saw one that crappy, the best aren't all that much better.

      Liar.

      This is a flat out lie. The data series used are megabytes in size, sometimes gigabytes. They are not a 'couple hundred sample points'.

      I don't care how much calculating you do on each point, when total resolution is that low I really doubt anything useful can be taken from such a model about next week, next century isn't even a joke.

      Your doubt means as much as your ability to analyze climate studies. Yes, I am attacking you because you do not know what you're talking about, and because what this li'l rant gets you worked up enough to say below.

      The problem is we still don't have the ability to model anything as complicated as the Earth's climate. We don't even have good enough data to input into a model if we had one. We only have semi-reliable temp data for less than a century on most of the world, humidity, rainfall, cloudcover/sunlight and pressure data are even worse. And a century is nothing when trying to understand longterm trends. The proxies used to attempt to make up for that lack of primary data is a very rough substitute. So anyone who even tries to make definitive statements at this point should be instanly suspected of being a quack.

      On what basis? Your good word? I can read the papers, and see where they make assumptions, and see that they know the limits of proxy data, and that they account for the limitations, and still come out with the conclusions they do. And you name them all liars.

      Models are not reality, but some are useful. Much like the military axiom that says plans are worthless, but planning is essential.

      Now combine with the hard reality that it is painfilly obvious to anyone who looks at the history of the 20th Century that this is a case of a solution in search of a justification and the politicization of science we are dealing with here makes perfect sense. It makes sense but it still pisses me off how easy it was to make scientists betray science in the name of power and funding.

      Oh yes, the power of graduate studies and associate professorship, and those thousands of grant dollars! What bloody nonsense. Meanwhile, on the AGW denial side, there's profit beyond imagination that's terrified we might actually implement policy that'll impact that bottom line, but they're stand up guys!

      We have real problems, many of them ecological, and we need scientists we can trust to help solve them. But I don't trust em at this point. I'm as pissed as I suspect the average Catholic is at the priests molesting kids. A trusted institution turned out to be rotten to the core and in need of a major cleansing and instead getting a whitewash and a 'nothing to see here, move along.'

      That's fucking obsence. How dare you? Even if it were all true, that the whole AGW concept was thought up as a political to grab power and money, with no basis in reality, and was somehow backed by an entire profession of scientists, that's not even in the same league as molesting children! You ass.

    4. Re:Self selection by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      I looked at some of those 'climate models' once. Oh. My. God. A few hundred sample points to model the entire Earth?

      That's the funny thing about statistics. After all it takes less than 3000 people for pollsters to model the population of the whole United States if the sample points are selected correctly.

    5. Re:Self selection by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      It's a real shame we don't have a systematic way of investigating the accuracy of a model and are forced to rely

      What's your method for systematically investigating the accuracy of climate models?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    6. Re:Self selection by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      You seem convinced that AGW is a power grab by the left and the science is perverted to support that end. The problem with that hypothesis is that science is all about the search for objective truth. Scientists who knowingly pervert their science away from that objective truth will be found out sooner or later and most of them are smart enough to realize that. It makes no sense that a majority of scientists for over more than 30 years now would be willing to disgrace their scientific reputations that way. Any scientist who followed the objective truth and completely overturned the current understanding of climate would make their name in the annals of science.

      If it's truly a conspiracy then it's got to be the most successful in history but I just don't believe a conspiracy of that magnitude could hold together for so long.

    7. Re:Self selection by RebelWithoutAClue · · Score: 1

      But yet they insist on actual elections before electing the President.

      --
      "However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results" - Winston Churchill
    8. Re:Self selection by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      "A few hundred sample points to model the entire Earth?"
      Dopne a lot of research into this, have you? Must have missed this hard to find entry:
      "This results in approximately 500,000 "basic" variables, since each grid point has four variables "
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_climate_model#Model_grids
      Or did you get "a few hundred" when calculating the number of points from that statement?
      " I really doubt anything useful can be taken from such a model about next week,"
      Well, I expect you'll change your mind then.
      Hey, remember when the denier argument was that climate models were just too complicated? Ah, memories....

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
  32. Peer Reviewed != True by BMOC · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Peer Reviewed is not synonymous with truth. You would be wise to learn this. There were peer reviewed articles about the ether before physicists demonstrated that it doesn't exist.

    --
    I swear they give me mod points to shut me up.
    1. Re:Peer Reviewed != True by Surt · · Score: 1

      It's the evidence half of peer reviewed evidence that makes it worthwhile. This isn't about opinions or theories, it's about numbers. The numbers may yet prove wrong, but at least the numbers have made it through peer review.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    2. Re:Peer Reviewed != True by BMOC · · Score: 2

      Well, there are multiple problems with the initial statement to begin with.

      1) You don't peer review evidence. You peer review written papers. Evidence is what you use to write these papers, it is subject to fact checking, and method analysis, but peer review is not something directed at evidence.

      2) As such, scientific papers are not objective evidence of anything. They are an attempted explanation for what we see in nature, they do not constitute evidence of how nature actually behaves.

      3) Peer review as a practice is well over a century old, it's outdated. What's more, the established institutions that practice it are no better at preventing outright fraud from getting through their processes than the New York Times. see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair

      --
      I swear they give me mod points to shut me up.
    3. Re:Peer Reviewed != True by The+Slashdot+8Ball · · Score: 4, Informative

      Referee's Report on the submission "Re:Peer Reviewed != True" by BMOC.

      The article is to be commended for its brevity and clear layout.
      However, it seems that the author makes the claim that peer-reviewed scientific papers do not contain evidence, a claim for which no reference is given and which we find to be unsubstantiated. We invite the author to consider that the "methods" and "results" section of a paper detail a set of observations. Short of performing every experiment and collecting observations personally, it is unclear to us what the author considers evidence to be.
      Further, the author is clearly unfamiliar with the content of the referenced material. Indeed, with regard to the Sokal affair, the journal in question was neither a) scientific nor b) peer-reviewed. From the author's own reference:

      Sokal submitted an article to Social Text, an academic journal of postmodern cultural studies,

      and further,

      At that time, the journal did not practice academic peer review and did not submit the article for outside expert review by a physicist.

      In light of the above issues, which we feel are fundamental to the article and could not be addressed in a rewrite, we recommend against publication.

      The system (basically) works.

    4. Re:Peer Reviewed != True by BMOC · · Score: 1

      No, not really. http://retractionwatch.wordpress.com/category/by-journal/science-journal-retractions/ Sokal was just the most egregious example of scholarly writings gone bad. If you want an example of peer review that failed, that is quite modern, you only need to look at NASA's much touted "life living in arsenic" paper that came out just a few years ago.

      --
      I swear they give me mod points to shut me up.
    5. Re:Peer Reviewed != True by Surt · · Score: 1

      You absolutely peer review evidence. I don't know what field you're in but from physics to psychology evidentiary review is considered vital to the process.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    6. Re:Peer Reviewed != True by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      Peer review is merely the first step on the road to scientific validity. It verifies that there aren't any egregious mistakes and that the paper is worth disseminating to a wider audience. After it is published it gets scrutinized by others in the field and gets accepted or rejected.

    7. Re:Peer Reviewed != True by The+Slashdot+8Ball · · Score: 1

      But retractions are a good thing - they demonstrate that the scientific literature is self-correcting as objections are duly considered.

      Getting an article past an editor and a couple of referees is only the first part of peer-review. The reviewing procedure proper begins when the article is published and has thousands of eyes on it.

      The NASA paper is an example of the success of peer-review, not the failure: a flawed paper was published, these flaws were found and published to a receptive audience and the original paper was retracted. This is ideal.
      The only possible improvement to this process is if no flawed papers were ever published. However, not only is this an impossibly high standard but it would be impossible to know if this standard was achieved without the second stage of peer-review.

      The whole point of the Sokal affair (which is not an example of failure in scientific peer-review) is that nobody in that particular academic community caught the nonsense paper: in the end it was Sokal himself who came clean.

      Nobody is claiming that scientific peer-review is equal to truth-detecting, but it is a great mechanism to find the errors in scientific papers, not least because an individual scientist can make a career out of finding these errors!

    8. Re:Peer Reviewed != True by BMOC · · Score: 1

      Retractions are good self-correction, there's no disagreement there. The problem is how many other papers out there make it into publication, affect the thoughts/understanding of other scientists, yet have glaring deficiencies? How many peer-review networks, which are essentially usually a group of people who know each other, turn into unshakeable pillars of one particular way of thinking?

      Peer review fails because when turns into pal review, and it does this often. What's more, the system is abused by unscrupulous researchers to learn about what their rivals are working on, so that they can delay your paper enough to write something very similar. I've personally watched this happen.

      When Joe Blow who works in Industry XYZ cannot see your paper until it is published, even though he has information that would improve the paper, that is a failure of peer review.

      Peer review is old, it is outdated in the internet age, it should essentially be replaced with something more like what Watt's is doing. This is my opinion, but I believe it is a well-informed opinion.

      --
      I swear they give me mod points to shut me up.
    9. Re:Peer Reviewed != True by BMOC · · Score: 1

      That's fine. What happens when that first step turns into an obstacle because of familiarity between reviewers?

      --
      I swear they give me mod points to shut me up.
  33. Farfetched Conspiracy Theories by Oxford_Comma_Lover · · Score: 2

    Problem is, there's so much politics in the peer-review process already that the argument isn't entirely unbelievable, it's just highly unlikely. Anyone with an ear to the ground hears rumblings about science bankrolled by organizations with an agenda and presented as neutral, or about people who have been denied publication because someone on an editorial board was doing the same work and didn't want to get scooped, or about selection of big names for journals because they were big names rather than because their work was great, or about confirmation bias in clinical trials where a doc will almost subconsciously discount symptoms he doesn't like.

    Obviously it's not enough to invalidate science, but the political problems make results less trustworthy and gives farfetched conspiracy theories (i.e. no global warming) a ring of truth to them. That's enough to keep them alive among the ignorant, especially because most people don't have time to learn the science themselves.

    --
    -- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
  34. Do you know what satellites measure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's not just the surface. They include upper air in the same measure.

    Therefore the trend will be slightly less even if it's the same.

    Additionally, the volume of air is more affected by ENSO/PDO than only the surface temps, and given we're in a cooling phase of these, the endpoint is lower than it would be if we were in a representative phase of these oscillations.

  35. New instruments, adjusted values by Greg+Hullender · · Score: 1

    The key issue seems to be that a number of stations had hardware upgrades over the past 30 years or so. Many of the new instruments give lower readings than the older ones did. (Didn't dig deep enough to figure out why though.) Any research needs to adjust the data to cope with this problem. Watts just ignores it, and it cancels out half the effect of the warming measured in the US over the last 30 years. He needs to correct for this and rerun his numbers.

    Note that the BEST study uses data from all over the world (including satellite data, which is immune from the effect Watts is studying) over a 250-year period. So it's hard to say that Watts' result really amounts to much even if he does correct it.

    --Greg

  36. Waste of time by sl4shd0rk · · Score: 1

    I don't care what NOAA, station siting, or the numbers say. I've not experienced heat like this summer, ever. It's too friggin hot. Last winter was pathetic as far as cold and snow go. It was not the usual. The gist of it is global temp is going up. It's been going up since the late 1800s because people exacerbate the "normal" heating periods of the planet. There's no point in arguing about bunk data. You don't need it. Instead, spend time figuring out what to do after we go over the edge of the tipping point.

    --
    Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
  37. No dear. by drainbramage · · Score: 1

    I appreciate someone that provides a link, even if it is wikipedia.
    However the link provided no support that that 'climatology' is not a new branch of research.
    The article starts with a history section that chooses to call some people 'climate researchers' because some of what they did included documenting temperatures, tides, etc.
    Further the article differentiates such studies from (mere) meteorology saying "those who practice climatology, study both the nature of climates – local, regional or global – and the natural or human-induced factors that cause climates to change."
    I haven't seen any documentation suggesting such studies are centuries old.

    --
    No brain, no pain.
  38. I think the problem is people's poor education. by bussdriver · · Score: 1

    Too many people fail to realize that small contributions from millions of people add up. This covers multiple topics. Also, a basic real understanding of large numbers or growth is severely lacking; obviously nobody can comprehend large scales like a million without abstractions but I would say that the abstractions commonly used are the problem. Statistics is much much worse and it is used so heavily today even in the "hard" sciences; making it more important for people to learn than topics like calculus or even science courses (where the philosophy of science has been replaced with wrote learning.)

    The sky seems huge and infinite; and people know it is not but that does not protect them from grossly over estimating its scope and their ability to impact it. Air density is LOW and people know that if you bring it up, but they don't realize the scales involved. Also, few people I've talked to have made the connection with the thinning air of higher altitude and the amount of matter in the atmosphere - as if it we had a uniform shell around the earth 100s miles thick instead 20 miles. The skeptics will put up a fight over how burning gas produces more lbs of exhaust than the lbs of gas put in and not feel anything while confidently being so ignorant.

    Then there is a the CO2 factor, where lab results show its heat retaining power; or one can simply look at history of the space race to see the huge impact it has on Venus and can figure ball park numbers there. One can figure how much humans put out now vs the past and do basic estimates there as well. It puts it all into perspective and the skeptics could continue to expand on the complexity until they end up becoming scientists in the field... and it is likely they won't be skeptics before they get to that point.

  39. Is it just me? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Isn't it interesting how this paper knocking weather station data just hit the mainstream? Didn't another paper claiming global warming is real and caused by humans using weather station data by a former skeptic just get released?

    Its crazy how voodoo science gets so much attention, but real science is shrugged off. Can you really even question why so many people without a science background are so confused? I mean, education for the masses comes in the form of media. Those who control the wealth control the media, and therefore the conversation on what is and what isn't relevant. Although many of us value "logic", your only able to rationalize based on the information and knowledge you have available and can comprehend.

    I'm going to end this before it turns into a critique of capitalism, but we all know that those who control the wealth have the power and science is not immune.

  40. This is newsworthy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I was about to link to the article on my iPad when I noticed the attribution to Fox News. That triggered an immediate "file in wastebasket" response from my neocortex. Don't we already know that urbanized areas, with all their asphalt and concrete and barriers to air movement, tend to be warmer? So what? If you instead deliberately exclude certain areas from sampling because you're convinced a priori that the readings will produce an undesirable result, isn't that the very definition of bias (i.e., systematic error)? I've never understood the magnitude of emotional investment some people make in arguing about the weather.

  41. Re:Oh no! The "Deniers" !!! You idiot. by riverat1 · · Score: 1

    True but it's also true that the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change was formed in 1988 so the term has been around a long time.

  42. The nature of peer review by segfault_0 · · Score: 1

    I think peer review is a good thing, and I also think that a peer-reviewed paper has a leg up on a non-peer-reviewed paper.

    That being said, peer review does not make something scientific, nor does it make something factual or non-factual.

    Peer review is there so that those of us without the time or intellect to understand a paper can make a choice as to whether or not we wish to accept the premises within. It's, in any practical sense, an argument from authority, as we have no idea what procedures, experimentation, number crunching, or hypothesizing these reviewers are doing to validate these documents. The fact is that the bar for acceptance differs from publication to publication.

    We simply see that they choose to publish something or they don't and assume we can trust their decision. This is a sociological effect, not a scientific one.

    --

    I was crazy back when being crazy really meant something. (Charles Manson)
  43. apparatchiks & basic lab science concepts... by harvey+the+nerd · · Score: 1

    As far as I know, Watts et al are the first to attempt exhaustively document and analyze the surface temperature data sources' susceptibility to changes from the environs. Even if they are biased in some presumed ways, they have done part of what should have been done 20 years ago by any group of "scientists" rather than politico gamers and scammers.

    Watts et al have driven a stake in the ground about REAL data, no response other than bleating "ur a troll", (supposed) "scientists say/have proven", shows than CAGW "science" politics are no different than Soviet era apparatchiks' argumentation about their inherent superiority in everything, ad nauseum. Nice to see such slimeballs marking down my previous "5" to send me a message - you demonstrate yourselves thugs, too.

    Real scientists generate real data and welcome checks of their data and sources. CAGW "major scientists" too often aren't even "green screeners" fudging old data on primitive simulators (relative to the underlying fundamental equations), they are "green screamers" all too reminiscent of the Soviet era apparatchiks, seeking to establish a new Nomenklatura.

  44. Not Discussable = Fear by harvey+the+nerd · · Score: 1

    See Harold Lewis , former chairman of the JASONs during some of its peak years, on academic corruption driven by the "trillion dollar" global warming scam.

    1. Re:Not Discussable = Fear by Surt · · Score: 1

      It is sad to see someone with what once must have been a fine brain lose it at the end of their career to dementia. And it's clearly dementia, btw, escalation to something like 'trillions' when the full US science budget is ~50Billion per year, with very little of that carved out for global warming research. The facts would have been easy for someone of his at-his-prime skill to assess.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
  45. Reddit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have come to the conclusion that Slashdot is really not that much better than Reddit or the Huffington Post when it comes to people who can think.

    Here we have someone who wants to be smart, sound smart, and probably dress smart, yet they can't grasp the fact that building a parking lot around a temperature gauge will impact that gauge independently of any larger trends.

  46. Re:Oh no! The "Deniers" !!! You idiot. by risom · · Score: 1

    Oh yes, that's interesting. Gonna research that a bit. Thank you!

  47. Re:Peer Reviewed != True BUT.. by uslurper · · Score: 1

    Actually, many published papers only present evidence, and dont try to make any conclusion.

    --
    oldhack: "Security is a waste of money until shit hits the fan. 5 minutes later, it becomes waste of money again. "
  48. Re:Peer Reviewed != True BUT.. by BMOC · · Score: 1

    The best ones do, yes you are correct in that.

    --
    I swear they give me mod points to shut me up.
  49. Muller was never a skeptic by PopularTechnology · · Score: 1

    You were right the first time. Muller was never a skeptic. It is impossible to call yourself a skeptic and make this statement,

    "Let me be clear. My own reading of the literature and study of paleoclimate suggests strongly that carbon dioxide from burning of fossil fuels will prove to be the greatest pollutant of human history. It is likely to have severe and detrimental effects on global climate." - Richard Muller, 2003

    http://www.technologyreview.com/news/402357/medieval-global-warming/2/

  50. Near Perfect Storm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1) AGU abstract submission deadline by August 8,

    2) EGU session proposal deadline looming (Sept.),

    3) Congressional Budget Committee Hearing with Cabinet Depts. in progress, slugging it out, January Sequestration looms large for 'Science', Bohener and Reid come to agreement but will the 'rank-and-file' swallow it an grin,

    4) Mid-way to the IPCC AR5 ... OH BOY ... what a circus!,

    5) Presidential Election in November.

    From my perspective on the ridge I see the usual suspects engaging in Sioux raiding parties on each other.

    My campfire is lit and I've got a frying pan for popcorn.

    The sun is setting, I'm not going to get a .308 in the head and my horse has lots of tobacco to chew and we
    both have enough water to see us to the next station.

    A good day.

  51. Much ado about not much. by emmenjay · · Score: 1

    Lots of hot air. Mostly complaining about things that don't exist.

    The Watts, et.al. paper is a pre-release version that Mr Watts has made available for review purposes. The plan is that internet readers will find errors that can then be fixed before submission to a journal.

    If the paper is garbage, then pop over to http://wattsupwiththat.com/ and explain, in detail, what is wrong with it. Mr Watts will be grateful for the help.

    Insults and attacks on the paper or its author should be forwarded to http://127.0.0.1/dev/null.

    Please also note that Mr Watts is not "denying" global warming (or anything else). He's trying to measure it. Sounds to me like a positive contribution.

    The "science" is not settled. You're thinking of "history".

  52. US ONly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    These data and conclusions appear to only apply to the US, nothing world wide. We are concerned about Global Warming, remember. I only glanced through the article, but if it is only addressing the bias introduced by weather station sites, and not the overall temperatures measured in the last 150 years, little is proved. A site that overstates the max/min temps will always overstate, for example. And the delta temp changes with time should be the same no matter where the station is located.

  53. Interesting.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    ... well, it is to me anyway.

    The climate researchers I work with have been complaining for several years that officially recorded globally averaged temperatures are significantly higher than they could attribute to _ALL_ known sources (natural, sun-related and man-made) and should have resulted in a higher incidence of extreme weather events than are being seen at the moment - where "significantly" is 0.1-0.2C. This has resulted in a lot of research to find out where the extra warming was coming from.

    These new stats fit nicely into their own calculations and observations without needing extra warming sources (if anything they give slightly cooler than calculated results - but not by much)

    NOTE WELL: Watts' figures don't "deny" global warming. They still show an overall temperature rise. They just give slightly lower observed figures (0.1-0.2C) than the official stats.

    Watts may be full of BS, but there isn't enough information in to know one way or the other - and there isn't likely to be for another 20 years. It's good that there's debate but name-calling doesn't help anyone. The anomalies between observed and calculated temps have been a huge driver of scientific debate and trying to break it into a "believer vs skeptic" argument is gross oversimplfication.

    Posting anonymously as I work at a university and am involved in a project processing 30 years of satellite imaging to try and assess the entire planet's surface albedo over that period. This is being driven by a need to try and assess if AGW calculations and observations are accurate enough.

  54. good timing there Willard by gzuckier · · Score: 1

    "We carefully studied issues raised by skeptics: biases from urban heating (we duplicated our results using rural data alone), from data selection (prior groups selected fewer than 20 percent of the available temperature stations; we used virtually 100 percent), from poor station quality (we separately analyzed good stations and poor ones) and from human intervention and data adjustment (our work is completely automated and hands-off). In our papers we demonstrate that none of these potentially troublesome effects unduly biased our conclusions."
    The Conversion of a Climate-Change Skeptic
      RICHARD A. MULLER
      July 28, 2012
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/30/opinion/the-conversion-of-a-climate-change-skeptic.html?pagewanted=all

    --
    Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
  55. Re:good timing there Willard by emmenjay · · Score: 1
    Keep in mind two things.
    1. Dr Muller was never a climate sceptic. He did criticise some of the orthodox practices described in the climategate emails, but he never claimed any reservations about the existence of global warming.
    2. Dr Muller's latest paper, the subject of his recent publicity, was rejected by the journal to which it was submitted, Journal of Geophysical Research. See http://www.rossmckitrick.com/.
  56. Not dementia by harvey+the+nerd · · Score: 1

    Hal Lewis' brain was working fine in 2010 when he quit APS. CAGW research has contained a lot of slop and fraudulent actions driven by individual ambitions and political agendas. He had had enough with APS sullying itself over the scams, including misrepresentations of distinguished APS members studied positions in committee, and resigned.

    1. Re:Not dementia by Surt · · Score: 1

      Well, if he wanted to make the case that he thought something was legitimately wrong, he probably shouldn't have used so much hyperbole.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
  57. As Usual on /. , when it comes to MMGW by ToddInSF · · Score: 1

    It's all about name calling, avoiding discussing the data, and being too much of a POS chickenshit to admit that all you're really doing is kowtowing to authorities, who rely exclusively on federal funding, fear, exaggeration, and your own ignorance and conformity.

    You just believe because "climate scientists" tell you to, with no skepticism or comprehension of what they are basing their claims on.

    As I've said before, many time, if you are so certain, talk about the data, how it's collected, interpreted, modeled, and represented.

    Simply believing it because you are told it's true is fine, too. Just be honest enough to say, hey, I can't make a rational argument because I really don't understand the science and models, which is the case for 99% of you douchebags here.

  58. Please attempt to read then try again by dbIII · · Score: 1

    Please read the comment above again, notice the "an entire field" this time and recognise that the field being referred to is climatology (and everything related), not all of science, then try again.

    I suspect it was deliberate strawman building, but you have a chance here to show you are not deliberately pretending to be stupid just to "win" a childish argument.

    1. Re:Please attempt to read then try again by phantomfive · · Score: 1
      I'll quote myself:

      Feynman did point out that some fields of science do have difficulties following good principles, however.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    2. Re:Please attempt to read then try again by dbIII · · Score: 1

      So the data entry boy that calls himself an engineer, but isn't one, has just declared an entire field of science invalid. You are truly a legend in your own mind. Pity about reality.

    3. Re:Please attempt to read then try again by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Oh yeah? Do you have any other insults to hit me with?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  59. Tamino by Grudge2012 · · Score: 0
    http://tamino.wordpress.com/2012/08/01/much-ado-about-nothing/

    What Watts has shown is that he can get a lower warming trend for the continental USA than others get. All you have to do is systematically eliminate the data you don’t like, while ignoring things like station moves, instrument changes, and recording data at different times of day. Don’t you dare correct for known biases (unless of course doing so would make the estimate of global warming smaller)! And if the satellite data should be in better agreement with others than with yourself, don’t breathe a word about that.

    The irony is that Watts is doing exactly what he accuses others of: tilting every aspect of the data and analysis to suit his ideology. The joke is that he actually thinks this is “science.”

    Since his original chest-beating, it seems that even some of his co-authors (one can’t help but wonder, did they all even know they were listed as co-authors?) take exception to his methods. Alas, it looks like important details are missing which are required for those who want to check his results. I certainly didn’t find any links to the data or computer programs used. Doesn’t Anthony want to be audited?