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Ask Slashdot: What Is the Best Position To Work For Long Hours?
New submitter damitr asks: "What is the most ergonomic position if you are working with a laptop or a desktop (with or without wireless keyboard and mouse) for long hours at stretch? Is bean bag for sitting with a laptop a good option? What is the best way to use a desktop without causing tennis elbow and backache/neck problems?"
What were you thinking?
there is no positition such that sitting still in it for a long time wont cause problems.
I love sitting on a Swiss Ball, aka Exerball or whatever. Otherwise, the Missionary Position (TM) is awesome.
Here is a log of a 3-week experiment using a stand up desk. FYI for comparison.
[Insert mildly, sexually suggestive innuendo here]
There is good reason modern jet fighters have recumbent seating, and it's not just for G forces.
I inherited a power recliner and can spend many hours surfing in it with zero discomfort.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
From what I can find, there is no ergonomic position to sit for long hours. We didn't evolve to sit at a desk after all.
The only thing I've ever found is that you MUST get up every 20 minutes or so and walk around and stretch. And get adequate eercise during the day. And there are a bunch of tips around the web.
Here's the rub - if you're working that much then you probably don't have enough time to get enough exercise.
Modern life is unhealthy - mentally and physically.
Missionary!
On your back is best IMHO
Apart from the position, it is always do some regular exercise so your muscles can stand your weight better.
Also, don't forget to move a little (even if it is just goig to the water cooler) once in a while.
Why can't
i have a desktop chair and a recliner. i switch back and forth between the two. usually the desk in the morning, and the recliner in the evening. work is still done
There's no such thing as a simple answer to this. Yes, you should sit with your back and legs straight - but it turns out that if you encounter any problems, there's no magic way to sit that will solve them.
This is why good quality office chairs are adjustable in various ways - you're expected to adjust the various bits to suit your own body and what feels comfortable to you.
get an interface implant directly to your brain. Wired or wireless, though wired be sure to give your self enough cord to get to the fridge and bath room.
The downside is you may get sudden mental crashes.
I have a standing desk. I find it most comfortable to use when I change my position frequently; I'll stand for a while, sit for a while, put my feet up on a cabinet for a while, go back to standing, etc. Half my postures (especially sitting) would probably make an ergonomics expert cringe. But I find it nice to change things up regularly. Sometimes I'm too lazy to stand for long, and I can tell, because my back gets sore. Once I spend a day or two standing more, I feel fine again. But only standing would never be comfortable for me either.
Maybe if I could be walking on a treadmill... I find walking much more comfortable than standing...
One thing I've learned over the years is that there is no best position. You want to change positions throughout the day -- squatting (i.e., no chair), slightly reclined, standing, and occasionally some variation of sitting -- along with getting up and stretching. If I'm absolutely stuck with one position and couldn't stay in a squat, semi-reclined w/ the keyboard on my lap would be the one I choose. It takes the pressure off of your back and neck and doesn't cause any arm problems if the chair is wide enough or has no arms. The main downside is the relaxed position means you have to get up and move around more unless you want to turn to jelly. (I've become extremely physically active this past year, but a long session of coding can still bog me down.)
Vary your position.
Don't use only your mouse. Don't use only your keyboard. Switch. Don't sit for long lengths of time. Have breaks (stare off into the distance will doing some exercises, for example jumping jacks). Switch between standing and sitting.
Use a beanbag, sure, but only for an hour or two a day.
Sword of Iron.
Sit on a ball and get up every hour and walk for 5-10 minutes. We tend to lean somewhat when sitting in a chair, with the ball that's not very handy since you'll lose balance. Also you can bounce and annoy everyone else in the room. I have some back problems and a swiss ball has been strongly recommended for my recovery after a herniated disc surgery. I use it at work. Takes a while getting used to it at first, since the back muscles are lazy due to sitting in chairs, but eventually you'll get there if you really want to. And don't forget to get up and walk every once in a while.
Born to raise hell.
Sometimes I sit with one leg folded under my thigh. I got this really nasty kink in my left knee right now. I know it will work itself out in about a day, but I have a temporary limp for the day. Also it cuts off circulation when you fold your foot under your thigh. It is just a bad habit to do.
God spoke to me
workrave has been my companion for years now.
It's great, when I use it, but there are times (often) when i'm too absorbed in whatever I am doing to let it distract me.
But the times i'm paying attention, it's a noticable productivity boost and my bones feel better.
My setup:
20 second pause every 20 mins
7,5 min pause every hour
8h max per day (go figure)
Mine are 3600 seconds long, and 3601 when there's a leap second.
A high-paying one!
"Standing for a long time and having increased pressure in the abdomen may make you more likely to develop varicose veins, or may make the condition worse." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002099/
Oh, man... What a horrible setup.
Suggested change:
- Max 4.5 hours per day.
- 30 min pause every hour and a half.
- 1 week vacation every 6 weeks.
You'll get more done than by working 8h with little to no vacation (burns up anyone in the long run), and you'll have plenty of time for your wife/gf and kids.
Joan Stigliani: The Computer User's Survival Guide: Staying Healthy in a High Tech World
See it at the Female Warrior's Shop
It is 10+ years old but when I read it I thought it was pretty good. If there are newer books that are recommendable I would be interested, too.
Otherwise: keep moving. As others in this discussion have stated: we are not made to sit still for long periods (or stand still, come tho that). Just try to sit in a comfortable position for, let's say, 1 hour, without moving at all (breathing movements and heartbeat may be continued ;-)
I like my spaghetti with source.
One of the most common causes for problems is a cheap chair.
An ex-girlfriend of mine had chronic back pains, so we went out and bought her are really good (and really expensive) office chair. I'm not talking leather, I'm talking "they deliver it and an expert adjusts it to you and your desk for optimum comfort".
It helped a lot. Why wait until your back hurts when you can prevent it?
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Get a chair that vibrates. It will cost you a quarter an hour but think of the all the money you will save for retirement. Make sure your chair have arm rests that are adjustable and has a seat cushion that breathes and does not get hot. Adjust the height of the chair so your feet flatly touch the floor. Also make sure that underneath your knees they do not contact the chair edge (cutting off circulation). The table height should be low enough so your arm is flat on the table. If your arm / shoulder is raised up all the time you will feel it with your shoulder aching all the time. Stop gripping that mouse. Find one the right size. I remember my Packard Bell mouse from the mid 90's that was shaped like a mouse. It caused problems with my hand as it was too high in the middle and wide on the sides and narrow where the buttons were. Google search: http://www.flickr.com/photos/eyekungfu/2982910813/
All positions before upper management or CEO are not best for working long hours.
Only when you touch top in your company, its best for working long hours because you make lot of money. Lower than that you always get same salary, so no point.
When you become somebody in top position, its the position to be.
However, in this particular position, if your position is not the topmost position(i.e. you are the owner), you need to work very long hours in 90 angle position.
This is how to attain this position
1. Stand straight, arrow straight
2. Bend forward 90 degrees, so your lips are facing ground
3. Now lift neck 90 degrees so your lips can be in perfect position for ass kiss
This position is best if you are in very good long hour upper management position
My Aurora : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o91ZsGwJYyg
FB : https://www.facebook.com/TanveersPhotography
Here's a position I can work in for 5 hours:
Chair 17 inches from floor to what you sit on.
Desk 30" off ground.
Keyboard tray 25" off ground.
Feet on a footrest 9" off ground. Or sometimes on the floor.
I sit in highly unergonomic positions but still don't experience any pain.
Be sure to center the F and J keys on you navel. (Don't center a whole 104-key keyboard on you navel: the numpad throws it off center.) Optionally put the mouse on the left so it's not too far off to the right (again, because of the numpad).
The low chair allows you to keep your feet flat on the floor without bending your legs backward or feeling too much pressure on the underside of your thighs. Otherwise (with too high of a chair), your thighs are tilting downwards and you're forced to put your feet on the coaster assembly.
Don't bother with the classic typing position of holding your arms above the keyboard parallel to it, and dropping your hands down perpendicular to the keyboard. That hurts. Rest your palms or wrist on the keyboard or a rest. (Typing teachers tell you not to do that.)
Put your feet on the footrest, extend your legs to be straight and optionally lean back.
The mouse should be on the same level as the keyboard (25").
I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
I've been a keyboard jockey for many years. It's been my experience that holding any single position for hours at a stretch hurts something -- back, shoulders, wrist, spine, or all of the above. The "best position" is usually "something other than the one I've been in for the past 60 minutes".
To address this, I recently got a sit-stand workstation. I love being able to stand up occasionally while I work. Standing relieves the pressure from my sit bones and legs, and since standing takes more energy I feel more awake and alive. I find I stand for an hour or two of every eight hour day. I don't like to sit all day, and I can't imagine standing all day.
The particular product I linked to above has its drawbacks. I love the ease of the transition between sitting and standing. I hate the mouse tray. It's too small for a regular mouse so I switched to a trackball. But regardless of which I use, my arm receives no support while using it. Holding my arm in the air so much stresses my shoulder. The only time I'm completely comfortable using a mouse is when all of my arm from the elbow forward is resting on a flat surface. The mouse tray on this product demands the exact opposite. My shoulder hurts enough that I know I can't continue using this, but I plan to work out something so that I can easily swap between sitting and standing. They offer similar products that might work better for me.
I'm also lucky enough to work from home, so I have six positions in which I regularly work: 1) sitting at the desk, 2) standing at the desk, 3) sitting at the kitchen table, 4) sitting in the living room, 5) sitting on the table on the porch, and 6) here in the hammock. (I have a Mayan style hammock hung on my screened-in porch.) I spend most of my time at 1, 2, and 6. When I'm away from the desk, I have to use the laptop keyboard which isn't great for my wrists. But the tradeoff is worth it. The hammock supports my back beautifully.
In short, I find that the best position for me to be in is a new one. We weren't made to work at a keyboard for 6-12 hours/day, and the best way to make your body forgive you while you do this is to spread the abuse around to different body parts. And after work, make it up to your body -- do yoga, go for a swim, run, or ride a bike.
If you can raise your monitor so that you directly face it without leaning or bending your neck downward, this will help you retain a vertical posture, which in turn leads to being comfortable longer. I've built myself a number of monitor stands over the years; all it takes is 3 pieces of wood (some even looked professional, because I bought quality wood). The one I'm at now lifts the monitor about 10 inches off the desk. Your preference may be different, of course.
For normal office workers doing data entry, programming, etc. on a desktp I start by recommending a low computer table. The top should be about 1" lower than the palms of the hands when they are held out with the forearms parallel to the ground and the upper arms are aligned with the trunk of the body. This will hold the desktop and paperwork being worked on.
The monitor should be wall mounted behind the computer desk. The center of the screen should be 2" to 3" above the line of sight when sitting normally and the screen should be tilted down about 5 degrees.
For a chair I recommend a Swedish kneeling office chair. These have no back but do have a padded bar extending in front of the seat that you put your knees on so that you are half kneeling and half sitting. Once you get used to this arrangement it is extremely comfortable and prevents loss of circulation and/or cramps from long sessions.
But the best recommendation is to get up every 1/2 to 1 hour and take a 2 or 3 minute walk. You'd be surprised how much this can help.
===KGH
Personally I work best in my hammock, notebook on my lap, head propped up on a pillow, with occasional breaks to run or paddle. Many people look horrified when I tell them about working in a hammock though (isn't it bad for your back!?) and then hit me when I tell them about the rest. ;)
"Something like this (http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-9713566-1.html) or (http://zero-drop.com/?p=1511). I am not a physician or an ergonomic expert but from what I understand about human physiology and mechanics is that majority of the back problems stem from overexerted or misaligned vertebrae. With a recumbent position you would relive the most amount of pressure from you spine and at the same time have a better alignment of the spine."
If you don't move for long periods of time you could cause deep vein thrombosis, and die from blood clots.
I've been kind of curious about this idea lately: What if we sat in hot tubs at our desks?
I predict the buoyancy would reduce the weight supported by our buttocks, so that we would be more comfortable.
I suspect the pressure of even 24 inches of water would assist in pushing venous blood out of our legs. This would improve our circulation and reduce the chance of blood clots forming.
In conclusion, desk workers would gain the benefit of at-work hot-tubbing. What could be more awesome?
In order to avoid "pruning up" the skin, the "water" could be an isotonic solution of dissolved salts.
Thoughts? I have been considering this because I developed a closed venous ulcer on my shin before I turned 40...
Lower down your seat and lean it back as far as possible - 45% for the back support is optimal, because there is no tension on the spine. At it feels like vacation when you're sitting like this, so you can be at work and not really feeling it :) I've been sitting like this only for the past 5 years, so I know what I'm talking about.
On the contrary. I've found that knee pads provide sufficient comfort for any duration.
"We would rather you switch between a few bad positions every hour or so rather than be in a single bad position all day. Just move, okay?"
This is especially true while debugging. Only when you stop looking at code start thinking about something else things work out. Countless number of times, I log out at 5PM to catch the 5:15 trolley, while walking back thinking about "pick dry cleaning, running low on coffee but can last another day, today is karate class day for the kid.." it would suddenly strike me, "wait a minute, in this function I am deleting invalid bodies, but the caller's caller of this function is looping through the body list, that is why the grandparent's loop is crashing in the next increment of the loop index". Such things have happened so many times. I think coding is done in many small bursts of activity with lots of thinking in between. Long coding sessions are not likely to be very productive.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Isn't it obvious? From home, while lounging, with a Cisco 891 router somewhere at home which provides VPN tunnels to the corporate office for voice and data, And of course, with hospital-style trays at various levels and angles suspended over you, to hold your laptop, monitors, keyboard, mouse.
With of course, various liquid-dispensing tubes (water, caffeine, alcohol), suspended from hospital-style "trees", which you use as needed/justified *grin*.
I'm not sure why this is even a question - doesn't everyone work this way? *grin*
However, for those of you that have to work for long hours at your office? Get 2 desks, one a normal one, the other one that can be adjusted for height. Get 2 sets of monitors and keyboards and mice. One set you use when you're seated at your desk, the other that you can use while standing at the other desk. Alternate between them, as needed. And of course, you just undock your laptop when you go home.
Regards,
dj
P.S.
Oh, and for those of you whose employers won't agree to pay for such a setup, despite working long hours for them? Start looking for another job. We've a LOT of people with this setup in their cubicles where I work, and the money spent to set it up is FAR less than the money that they earn.
Regards,
dj
For a desktop, I recently started using a combination of an ergomoue and a touchpad, in almost an ambidextrous manner. I've always been right handed, but I have started to use the touchpad with my left hand and only fall back to the ergomouse when I need to copy and paste things or need better control than the touchpad will give me. My right arm and shoulder had really been bothering me and this has helped in just a few weeks of use.
The vertical mouse is a much more natural position than a normal mouse for your arm and wrist. The touchpad rocks on verticle scrolling, working actually better than a scroll-wheel on a mouse.
What you want is something like an Evoluent VM4 Vertical Mouse (there are several brands) and an Easycat two button Touchpad. Easycat works fine with Linux right out of the box.
Yeah, I've spent too much time behind a computer. Don't judge me.
Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, religion destroys spirituality
Step 1: Get a good quality, highly adjustable chair. Lumbar and height adjustments to fit your body are a must. Set your chair to perfectly mimick the natural curves in your lower back, and sit leaning back about 15-25 degrees from upright, with both feet square on the ground in front of you. Don't slouch! Lower the armrests so you can't use them... slouching to the side is tempting and is terrible for your spinal health in the long term. Your monitor screen should be positioned directly in front of you at eye level so you don't have to strain your neck at all.
Step 2: Stand up and stretch your legs, back, and neck at least once every two hours. I also like to go for a short walk around the office.
Step 3: Do core strengthening for your lower back 2-3 times per week. It doesn't need to be a complicated ordeal; light calisthenics for 10 minutes will keep you in much better shape than no exercise at all. Bridges, supermans, leg raises, and crunches all factor into my routine, and there are many variations on each so I like to switch it up. My only equipment is one of those inflatable exercise balls. You may want to visit a professional physical therapist to ensure you are getting the most out of your workouts.
Following something like the above plan is almost necessary for anyone sitting long hours in front of a screen each day. For me, with my tall narrow body shape, it is doubly so. I manage to get by with minimal discomfort using this plan. If I get lazy for a few months, sit slouchy and neglect the exercise, I pay with constant discomfort. The difference is huge.
On top of aï big pile of money with many beautiful ladies!
You mean at the office?
An a new bed every night, stuffed with $100 bills, provided by my employer, for me to keep.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
I'm not kidding. When I work at home, I use a laydown desk (basically a cot/lawn chair with some strategically placed pillows), and my monitor is placed on the edge of a small table, and I drink a lot of liquids (mostly water), so I'm constantly forced to get up and reposition. It's not the most efficient way to work, but it seems to have the least impact on my body. My keyboard is in my lap, and I use a bamboo tablet on a stack of books. I wouldn't be able to do this at an office, but if I was asked to work extra hours I would be working those hours at home anyway.
All that being said, hacks like this aren't really solutions. We all need to exercise and minimize our computer use, there's just no real way around that. I think this is all just damage control.
You mean at the office?
In a new bed every night, stuffed with $100 bills, provided by my employer, for me to keep.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Two suggestions:
1) After lots of shoulder problems years ago, I gave up on regular mouse and went to a Logitech Trackball. Now my wrist rests on the desktop and it takes a lot of stress off my shoulder.
2) Get a REALLY good chair. I have an Aeron chair and it helped (but no chair eliminates) with lower back problems.
Good luck.
Well in my experience, like so many other's here, changing position is the best. I don't have any fancy research to support that with, just the average "geek since age 6, spend pretty much every woken hour by a computer for the past 25 years" background that most people here have. At times I've had back problems or such, and then I've had to get serious about it, changing my position more regularly. When I was tied to a desktop it was the worst, but I found occasionally switching between one of those seat-balls and a regular chair did wonders... Once I got into laptops, well... Now I spend some time at my desk. Then I have another shelf where I can stand up and work for a while if I feel like it... or I can lounge on my bed, on the floor, on a hammock, standing, leaning, sitting. I change position regularly, put a leg under me, throw my feet up, sit on my knees... Maybe ever 15-20 minutes I move. Every half hour to hour I get up and walk a bit, not to walk but to go get some water or hit the bathroom or something. All together this has massively increased my comfort and decreased any problems I used to have.
Okay not ANY problems, I still can't quite figure out how bake cookies without having an oven, but my back is doing fine.
It was my understanding that Slashdot never erased a comment unless there was a court order or, back in the pre-corporate-days, a threat of legal action. I guess they could lose a post if the deletion was a result of a technical glitch. such as an explosion at the server 10 seconds after you post a comment, before it has a chance to get backed up offsite.
As far as I know, only one comment has ever been deleted from Slashdot, and that was a as a result a threat of legal action by the "Church" of Scientology back in the days when /. was independent and couldn't afford to mount a legal defense.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.
By the way, try browsing at "-1".
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
My best solution was to buy a "swing-arm" for my monitor. I can adjust the monitor for optimal viewing in whatever position I choose to sit. I usually sit on my futon with the swing-arm clasped to a heavy cart with wheels. The CPU is on the bottom shelf. The swing-arm is made from aluminium tubing; it screws onto the rear of the monitor. An added benefit is that I can turn my monitor 90 degrees and look at pictures vertically. Having used it, I would not want to be without it.
According to one wise man, "Belief is premature cognitive committment." NO AMOUNT OF BELIEF ESTABLISHES A FACT.
That's what I did.
I got a spare plank of wood left over from some cabinet work in the kitchen, square-ish in size and a bit bigger than my back, and plopped it right between me and my cushion. I can adjust it to a vaguely upright position(good for typing), or reclining according to my mood(browsing, watching videos etc), and I am sure my back is mostly straight rather than curving in to the cushion and going all humped.
Oh, and I got a smaller cushion for my neck/head. Make sure their is no neck strain, or it's all pointless.
Alternatively, read this BBC article, they recommend a 120-135 degree angle for a chair:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6187080.stm
I am an ACCA student. Got a query on Accountancy/Finance? Maybe I can help!
-1, that's better. Thanks. Hate to see /. wiping their ass my constitution.
Still, I fail to see the -1 in that comment, using the word fuck is not all that foul, in a post neo beaver cleaver world.
... and they didn't come from working standing up.
However, using a stepper to work the leg muscles will reverse the effect: increase deep veinous circulation to better than sitting. Best of all, use compression stockings to force blood up out of the legs -- whether you work sitting or standing.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
I am choosing to live with ugly veins.
Not just ugly. Varicose veins divert returning blood to recirculate and pool in the lower legs. Consequences can include blood clots, edema, and (in my case) tissue necrosis leading to ruptured Achilles tendons.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
Even given the most ergonomic chair, it's unhealthy to sit for long periods of time. Try this: Have your main workstation at a desk with a good chair, and have a separate laptop (to which you can remote into your desktop if necessary) at a height sufficient to stand while you work. Alternate periodically.
A co-worker has his desk set unusually high, and typically stands at his desk to work. When he gets tired he sits on a bar stool.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
SERIOUSLY. I had very serious back problems for years from poor posture, sitting upright, working at a computer. I tried everything and was constantly dealing with pinched nerves and uber-carpal tunnel. Now, I lay down on a sofa with my back propped up, keyboard on my lap, screen on a table a little to the right of me. No more back problems. Carpal tunnel stuff (really, nerves pinched) minimized. And get a somewhat ergonomic keyboard, of course. I use a Logitech wireless K350.
Also, if you have to sit up and have serious carpal tunnel problems, there are keyboards that flip the keyboard so that it's vertical, split in half. And get a sideways ergnomic mouse. This works pretty well if you can get used to it.
It just comes down to what feels good for you. At least for me the "ergonomic" rule book needs to go out the window, I end up with more strain, more discomfort and less productivity if I do everything the so called "ergonomic" way. If I have to code for hours, I have my chair tilted back, I have my hand on the edge of the desk, I have my feet moving under the desk and I switch positions every few minutes. From the "ergonomic" point of view I have about the worlds worst setup but from the how I feel and how much work I get done view I have the best. Just keep trying what works for you and you'll hit a point where you'll find your own "ergonomic" setup. I put the word in quotes because I don't believe there is a one fit for everyone, it's almost black magic.
CEO, vice-ceo, politician, and many other positions in power.
Get a Swopper. Expensive, but worth the money. Have heard only good things about it. Forces you to sit 'actively'. Switch the Swopper with standing every once in a while. I'm using a barstool as a poor mans Swopper and it ain't doing my back any good. I'll be getting a Swopper as soon as I can afford one.
The third option would be a recliner. However, setting up your workplace to be able to type and UI navigate comfortably in a reclined position probably is such a hassle that it is impractical.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
There's no 100% way to make sure you're not getting RSI so you have to make sure to change position every once in a while If you want to limit chances you are going to get RSI or something like that just take care to follow these simple rules: 1. Don't stay more than 2 hours in a row in front of your workstation. If you don't have to piss then just stand up, make two steps and sit down again 2. Every half an hour try to follow the line of your office' roof with your eyes. This obliges you to move a bunch of muscles at the same time, eyes, neck, jaw, et cetera 3. Have a mandatory break every maximum 4 hours. Don't lunch while working at your workstation. 4. Make simple exercises with your arms every once in a while so you don't get stuck in the same position. Make your hands turn in circles palm open until you hear horrible noises from your junctions :D
5. Force your employer to make sure that:
- light exposition comes from your left or right, not from above you. This reduces the need to make movements with the neck to read the monitor
- your chair has arm support
- you have a stand for your feet so they make a 100-120 angle compared to your legs
I took part of this from the italian law for safety of computer operators and i must say that it actually works. I'm working as developer since 2004 and i still don't have any back/neck relevant pain
if free market is supposed to be able to solve every problem, why do i still need to scratch my balls?
You don't have to do fuck all, it doesn't require any technical ability whatsoever, you take all the credit but get none of the blame, and the pay is great.
I spend most of my time in a Herman Miller Embody chair, a ridiculously overpriced piece of kit that happens to be insanely comfortable for long periods of time, and lets you move around so much in so many different directions during the day, they really put a lot of thought into it and as much as the purchase price hurts, nobody that has one regrets it
Half-sitting, slouching... Done it for 30 years now, never had any trouble. Whatever position you sit in, you want your eyes level with the monitor to keep your neck from straining. Either positioning it too high or too low is problematic.
What the fuck man.
Ridiculous question.
At no point in our evolution was it designed for us to sit a long time. Your question has no answer.
ie, the answer is, what ever position works for you and doesn't kill you.
I'm sure others have mentioned standing. But... once again... we weren't designed to stand either.
We are an animal that was expected to be on the move at all times.
Standing will give you:
Varicose Veins
Popped capillaries
Edema
and still even the chance of DVT
Only thing that can be added, take daily aspirin, 80mg or so, to prevent the stroke you are going to get one day.
(My wife died from too much sitting. Literally. DVT behind her knee, broke off, went into lung, Pulmonary embolism
was a result. Upon surgery, part of the clot made its way to her brain. 3 blockages... coma. Few weeks later, and
I'm a widow. Extenuating circumstance? None that Dr would ever admit to. My consolation prize? Nearly 100 grand
in stuff the insurance wouldn't cover. )
-AI
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion
There's more and more research about the benefits of standing - or rather, the harm that comes from sitting.
I started standing for work four years ago. Only the first couple of weeks were challenging, but I quickly became able to stand for 12+ hours non stop. Granted, I don't stand like a statue; I shift around (but not so much that I look like some freak).
Within a week of changing from sitting to standing, my lower back problems went away. Those lower back problems developed despite my proper ergonomic arrangement in the number of Herman Miller Aeron chairs I had for the previous decade.
Lastly, if you frequently get pulled away from your desk, having to stand up and sit down is a real nuisance. When you work standing, it's as simple as walking to and from your desk.
.sigs are for post^Hers.
I use a quality zero gravity chair, LCD arm, logitech trackball and ergonomic keyboard.
Zero gravity chairs do not actually reduce gravity, but they do reduce the amount of fatigue your body experiences due to gravity. They are modeled after chairs astronauts use when escaping Earth's gravitational pull which is multiple times what we typically experience on earth. With a zero gravity chair fully reclined, your legs are above your heart causing a reduction in your blood pressure and risk of blood pooling and clotting in your legs.
Despite having a very comfortable setup, I make a point of getting up periodically to walk around and relax my eyes by focusing on objects in the distance.
http://www.treadmill-desk.com/
I position my desk so that my entire forearm can rest comfortably on the desk surface with upper arms in a mostly downward position. I type with at least one forearm mostly on the table (and use a standard querty keyboard). My monitor sits about even with my eyes.
I also make a point to drink a LOT of fluids so that I am forced to get up at regular intervals. Humans were not designed to remain in a seated posiiton for long periods at a time.
Also, no overhead florescents for me - those are off. I have a single table lamp (from home) on a desk nearby, which provides enough lumination for the entire office. I only turn on the overhead cubicle lamp if I am going to spend extended time reading or writing on paper. Otherwise the glare is a huge annoyance.
I think I am pretty close to the default settings. Something like a short 30ish second break every 10 minutes and a 5 minute break (where it gives 3 guided stretches/eye exercises for the first minute and a half) every 50 minutes. Because the timer only ticks when you are actively typing/mousing, it doesn't actually interrupt me every hour...If I get up and walk away or do something else it stops counting down the timer (and if I leave for 5 minutes or more, it counts it as a break.
Unfortunately I am not in a position where I can set a maximum daily timer. Nor would I really want to... when I am done with work, I still want to use the computer for personal use (I am mostly using workrave so I can use the computer MORE than I could if I used it without breaks since as long as I keep taking breaks, I can use the computer all day without any wrist issues).
Bottles.
The original post mentions tennis elbow and sore neck and shoulders. About 12 years ago I thought I was getting carpal tunnel, and had sore neck, back, and shoulders. Independent of these issues I took up Olympic style weightlifting, and within about three months all the pain issues were gone. At 46 now I'm about 2x as strong as I was at 24. I can not recommend it highly enough, and for the issues mentioned, dead lifts, back squats and front squats would take care everything.
This is one of the most important things you should know - independent of any other factors, such as getting regular exercise, etc., sitting for long stretches will increase your chance of a heart attack by 54 percent .
* Go for frequent short walks. Go to the water cooler a lot, drink lots, go to the toilet regularly.
* When you're on the phone, stand.
Other than that, sit in a good position - shoulders back, arms parallel to the desk, etc.
Nothing beats it.
http://xkcd.com/300/
This is one of the most important things you should know - independent of any other factors, such as getting regular exercise, etc., sitting for long stretches will increase your chance of a heart attack by 54 percent .
* Go for frequent short walks. Go to the water cooler a lot, drink lots, go to the toilet regularly.
* When you're on the phone, stand.
Other than that, sit in a good position - shoulders back, arms parallel to the desk, etc.
Our work environment people always say: The best position is the next position. Don't use one position all the time. Change between different working positions. That is the real advantage of using a table that can change the height. Also vary how you keep you feet. Either have a dedicated foot rest that you use once in a while or use a small cabinet or similar to raise your feet for 5-10 minutes every hour. And remember to take a few walks during the day. Take a walk up the stairs to get out of the basement once in a while. Stairs are good for the legs.
I've been using a standing desk for over 5 years now and would never go back. I can go for hours on end without problems now. It also makes it easier to stretch and move around, which is more healthy. For me it was the only answer after watching my mid-section deteriorate from sitting for hours daily.
My office has an adjustable, motorized desk. When I work I can sit, or stand. And switching back and forth is good.
However, please note that you should not maintain any posture static for an extended period of time. Make sure to take micro- and macro breaks, and walk away from the desk every once in a while. This is critical if you do long hours. I would recommend looking into an ergo timer such as the open source Workrave.
I've found that the best way is to have several options and vary between them.
For instance, at my desktop, I've got a keyboard with a trackpoint, a mouse and a trackball.
I have a chair adjusted for ergonomic sitting, a balance board, a height adjustable desk and the monitors are adjusted for a relaxed, upright neck position.
I vary between which input device I use and I vary between sitting, standing and standing on the balance board.
/.Mattsson - My native language is not English, so please don't whine over linguistic errors. (That's lame anyway...)
We didn't evolve to sit at a desk after all.
We didn't evolve to stand upright either, or at least we haven't evolved very much. I heard a discussion by a scientist studying our spines' adaptations to standing upright. It's basically a kluge. For most of evolutionary history, spines were horizontal. Now we are using most of those abdominal adaptations to stand our spines upright. This scientist said using our spines to support our heads upright is something like supporting a melon with a toothpick. It is no wonder we have so many back issues.
This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when first he appears as a protector - Plato (423 to 327 BC)
You can get a standing desk that's is adjustable and allows you to use it with the chair when you want. Stand when you want and sit when you're tired.
I can't tell much about placement of hands, screen and keyboard, but there's one type of chair that lets you sit in it for hours without problems - precisely designed for that purpose. Car seats.
Visit your local junkyard and grab a neat car seat for peanuts (very low demand as replacement part, no valuable components to be recovered, and even getting the metal is a pain, so they cost very little). Screw on some plywood base sticking out backwards so that it doesn't tip over. You may add some more elevation by adding some planks or such - use your creativity, but essentially, turning a car seat into a computer seat is pretty trivial. And a quality car seat will keep you comfortable for many hours a day.
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
A recent news article (sorry, don't have link) reported that a recent medical study shows that heath risk rises dramatically if you sit for more than 3 hours a day. Wow! Getting under 3 hours a day of sitting is tough to do as an office drone of any kind.
If you can, get an adjustable desk. My wife has issues (pinched nerve) that caused us to invest in a computer desk with a motorized mechanism to raise and lower the top. It is really slick. My advice would be to sit as little as possible, work standing up as much as possible, and generally have the option of selecting from multiple ergonomically correct work positions. A motorized desk greatly facilitates those kinds of adjustments. We bought a complete desk unit, but after doing that I found that the manufacturer will sell you just the leg/motor/controller parts so that you can slap a custom top of your own onto it. The controller can handle up to 3 legs, so you can do large L-shaped tops and what-not.
Also, get rid of your visitor chair. If someone needs to talk at the whiteboard, both of you should stand. I bet the meetings will be shorter and more focussed :) Years ago I worked for a V.P. whose personal conference room was arranged with a stand-up conference table and zero chairs. It worked wonders for his schedule -- nobody lingered after the work was done.
People who sat for eight to 11 hours a day had a 15 per cent increased risk of dying within three years. Research, published in the Archives of Internal Medicine, tracked more than 222,000 people above the age of 45 in New South Wales over a three year period. Disturbingly, the increased risk was not offset by other physical activity during leisure time, meaning those who sat 11 hours a day had the same increased risk of death regardless of whether they jogged for one hour each day or not. BUT breaking up sitting time every 20 minutes with two minutes of light to moderate movement improved glucose metabolism.
work in progress
I think the movie swordfish teaches the best programming position. You can hack the DoD in under a minute with basic commands and all you need is someone pointing a gun to your head and a woman under the table.
n/t
change your position from sitting legs on the table, keyboard on your legs, to sitting back and front, lean to left&right...
the whole idea is to forget ergonomical thinking, and let your body to choose when you need to change. just like when you sleep, you don't wake up and actively think that you must change, you just do it.
...manager
:)
i could designate work to others all day from home in bed with just a cordless phone, while my wife is in the cowgirl position
a good manager would be a little different
No position is good to hang out in for hours. You really should take a few little breaks, stretch and get some blood flowing.
I've always wanted to try some sort of circle desk that you can strap you/laptop into.. work flat on your back, sitting up, roll forward facing down.. always seemed it would feel a lot better than sitting around stationary or just standing up.
What Is the Best Position To Work For Long Hours?
There is no best position to work for long hours since the human body did not evolve to remain stationary for long hours day after day. Whether you work while standing or sitting, being immobile is worst thing you can do to your body.
Put it another way, your question represents a solution looking for a problem. The thing to do, which has been known for years in the "office space" is to take breaks. Put a timer that goes off every 20/30 minutes. Everytime the timer goes off, get up, rotate your torso and neck, try to touch your toes if you can, and take a walk around your cubicle.
Better yet, if you have a smartphone, get a Pomodoro app. Learn about the Pomodoro technique and use it. It's the best thing you can do to your body and brain if you have to work long hours with little body movement.
I don't care about the style, hipness or price
I can sit in that thing all day and be comfortable
I recently listened to a show on NPR with the author of the book "The First Twenty Minutes". The book focused on exercise, but they also discussed how the body tends to shutdown after sitting for about twenty minutes. Merely standing for a minute or two out of every twenty prevent the body from going into sedentary mode and supposedly can have health benefits that can surpass daily exercise. Not that you shouldn't also have daily exercise mind you!
Drink a lot of water and you'll be hydrated (good) and you'll have to get up to go the the bathoom. People can't really make a fuss over that, so you know have an excuse to get up, walk around, stretch, etc.
Skip chapters 3, 6 and 7.
Have gnu, will travel.
was about to say the same.
Worked in a Swedish office, where they were taking their employee ergonomics very seriously. Desks had motors in them to raise and lower the work surface, plus there were a pool of excellent 'things to sit on' - basic idea was that you could very easily switch from sitting, to sitting on a swiss-ball that was the right size for you, to working standing up.
I fortunately seem to have been rather blessed in never having so much as a twinge from a desk-job, but actually found it quite useful for other stuff - if you're trying to show somebody something at your desk, having it at a standing height just feels far better (i.e. not one person seated, and the rest looming over trying to peer at the screen, type on their own laptops they've balanced etc.
In 27 years of professional software development I have watched numerous co-workers succumb to various RSIs, require ergonomic keyboards just to be able to bear the pain of working. The one difference I notice between me and these unfortunate folks is this: I avoid using the mouse.
I use keyboard shortcuts, I prefer a text editor that allows me to do everything including navigating from a standard QWERTY keyboard (in my case, the One True Editor, vim but there are other options -- I've also used BRIEF, OS-9's stylograph and IBM's Personal Editor in my time). Hot-keys, short-cut keys, accelerators, anything that keeps my hands on home row have been my safeguard.
It's also fair to say that I have been playing piano since I was 5 but I still think that "stay away from the mouse" is the best advice anyone will give you.
cheers...ank
Still hoping for Gentle Treatment...
We didn't have an ass until we lost our tails, so we had to squat on our haunches the way monkeys still do. But now that we have an ass to sit on, that's what I prefer.
I piss off bigots.
I both work and play on computers. I sit in the same chair averaging about 14 to 16 hours a day. I've been sitting this long every day for about 15 years and the trouble it causes is no-longer subtle. I even bought a really nice (BodyBilt) chair to try and help my back but after a few years it hasn't helped all that much.
One of the main ways I've been able to get relief is by alternating between sitting at a desktop, and using a laptop in bed propped up with my elbows. This position tends to reverse the bulging disk issues that sitting causes, but it is a hard position to maintain for more than a few minutes without getting a stiff neck.
I began thinking out of the box recently and I've built myself a new "chair" based on maintaining the position of using a laptop in bed more comfortably, and at my desktop workstation. I have a prototype I use built out of lumber and spare parts I had around (I'm actually using it now). It keeps me at a slight incline and supports my feet to help keep the spine compressed which helps keep the bulging disks in check, and it works quite well. My arms rest on my normal desk and use my normal keyboard and mouse. I'm still working on a way to support the head comfortably, but any company looking to productize such a device would probably have an easy time with that problem. I'd really like to see some work in this area, since I suspect this is ergonomically far superior to sitting, but I fear it's too radical for companies to embrace.
The other option I'm exploring is a treadmill desk (I ordered one a few days ago). I have a standing desk, but standing still is just too uncomfortable for me to do for any appreciable amount of time. I'm hoping the motion of a treadmill desk will allow me to work longer without pain, as well as giving me some exercise.
Another thing I can recommend to anyone who has occasional back trouble is a Nada Chair Back-up. It's a simple little device for pulling your spine into position by strapping it to your knees. It definitely helps reverse the uneven pressure on your spine caused by sitting, and it has rescued me from back trouble many times. It's a cheap simple device, and I find it helps a lot when things get bad, but it's hard to wear it enough to keep things from getting bad in the first place.
set softtabstop=4 shiftwidth=4 expandtab nocp worlddomination
I've yet to hear anything bad about working on a treadmill desk. Standing is better than sitting, but people generally aren't meant to be sedentary, sitting or standing, all day.
My situation unfortunately doesn't allow for it right now, but I intend on changing that as soon as reasonable.
Enjoy:
http://www.bornrich.com/entry/top-10-luxury-workstations-leisure-pleasure-and-work-of-course/
Cheers, Marco.
I would have thought it obvious, Isolation Tank - just like in Altered States, or the chick in Fringe.
hmm... why is no one responding to this?
Massive Censorship Of Digg Uncovered
digg-logo-heart-lg1
A group of influential conservative members of the behemoth social media site Digg.com have just been caught red-handed in a widespread campaign of censorship, having multiple accounts, upvote padding, and deliberately trying to ban progressives. An undercover investigation has exposed this effort, which has been in action for more than one year.
Your basic posture should be something like this:
http://tinyurl.com/caqnfwx
Then, at least once per hour, and at least for 5 minutes, change position to either this:
http://tinyurl.com/2cpvmzr
or this:
http://tinyurl.com/ctta6a9
sit in a recliner with a big monitor
Learn basic yogic exercises. A periodic visit to a good Chiropractor may help detecting the problem early or avoiding it altogether. But avoid sitting for a long stretch. There are ways to relax (pass on your regards to the washroom, or visit the pantry).
In my experience people who complain about back/arm problems are the people who are stressed most. Relaxed people change position often and don't force anything.
After working long hours, I go for the fetal position.
Persistence hunting twice as calorie efficient as violence hunts. The human gait is VERY VERY efficient. All you're losing is time, but you're going to succeed nearly 100% of the time persistent hunting compared to very low rate per person involved for attacking your prey.
ask a doctor. He can give you advice on how to sit and also on what to sit on. There are ergonomic chairs and even balls.
Also there might be medical reasons as to why do or not do something.
Where I work, one person has back issues and she asked her doctor and he told her she must NOT use a sitting ball as that would increase her problems.
I use a trackball instead of a mouse. Took me three days to get used to it. I also have a mouse pad with foam and a wrist pad. http://www.kensington.com/kensington/us/us/s/1429/mouse-wrist-pads.aspx will give you examples. Relative cheap solution to prevent problems.
Using something like this might be a bit over the top.
As to sitting: sit straight, adjust your monitor to your sitting position. (Most likely it is to low) and take breaks. Befriend a smoker and go with them on their smoke breaks. This will give the added bonus of talking with people from other departments.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
For example if I am writing some algorithm to split a polygon into pieces, take some time to write code to calculate the area of pieces, and check against the area of the original, validate this code in the mickey mouse development example. Have it under a flag to disable it before shipping the product or during profiling and benchmarking. But all through the development, as we proceed from mickey mouse development code (5-10 polygons), to larger examples (100-1000 polygons), and then to benchmark examples (10000-1000000 poly) and then on to stress test examples (10 million poly) to completely insane input (100 million poly) examples, this code should be testing every decomposition at the deepest level. Would throw an exception and stop it if it is not within tolerance.
During early development the audit methods would on all the time. Then it gets turned on only for the overnight runs and the test suite runs on the test machines. When I ship the product I know the polygon decomposition code has been tested individually for at least 100 to 200 million polygons at least 300 or 400 times. This is how strong and reliable code is developed.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Geosynchronous would be better. One of the LaGrange points best.
Even there, get up every 15-30 minutes, move around, get some physical work done, hit the treadmill or the Nautilus, or even just take a smoke break, go out and girl watch (Wups, sorry, ladies and others. What's the gender neutral term? Oh yes, "babe watch"), interact with the person in the next cubicle, whatever. Studies have shown you'll live longer. There was one recently; don't have it handy.
If you get on a roll with your work, though, for chrissakes don't stop for any abitrary interval and lose your momentum.
Laid out on couch, eyes closed, laptop closed. The work will still be there when you wake up!
Here's what I do: I have a wireless keyboard and mouse. The keyboard sits on a padded lap table that rests in my lap (http://www.target.com/p/lap-desk-lollipop-red/-/A-14127570 - no, mine is black), mouse is on a side table thus my shoulders are always at a natural height instead of scrunched up. And my monitor is on a stand so that I'm always looking straight forward and my back inclined backwards a bit. Buy a nursing stool to rest your feet on and a proper chair with no armrests or ones that move out of the way. Finally, I use one 30" monitor that is sitting at the focal point of my eyes unaided, as advised by my eye doctor.
If you are working long hours then you need to counter balance it with exercise. I would do yoga. It will stretch the back, the wrists, the legs, feet, etc. I used to have problems bending my wrists very far but now everything is pretty flexible. If you disregard this idea because "oh exercise.." then stupid is as stupid does..
Have you fscked your local propeller head today?
Reclined in a chair at 135 degrees. http://www.powerergonomics.com/page17.html
Do Good, Annoy Evil!
I've been spending way to much time writing code for decades and I'll tell you a chair is not part of the equation. Unless it's a very fancy chair. You need to be half lying down; look at what gets written into cyberpunk novels, they're not wrong.
Sometimes you can luck out and find the right reclining leather chair that's right for your frame, laptop on your lap, wireless mouse on the arm and you're good. You can't get away with this without decent nutrition and exercise though as it's quite unnatural; vacuum 6x times a day till it hurts, and eat fish and leaves.
Snicker all you want. Try it. I can do this 16+ hours a day every day and nothing hurts.
Need Mercedes parts ?
I simply sit in my recliner. I use a laptop sitting on a Logitech laptop table, (cooling fans and awesome audio). My back and neck are supported a lot better than sitting at a desk. And an added plus is: My dachshund can sit next to me while I work/surf/play. I put in 10 to 14 hrs a day this way, with frequent breaks. (walking around doing household chores, walking the pup etc.) I used to suffer terribly when sitting this long at a regular desk!
that doesn't involve sitting still in the same position for a lengthy period should probably do better than a desk chair, you get these type of chairs where you sit in that more or less force your spine to be in constant motion. My (i dont know the exact english) kinesist (practitioner?) told me those things were really great for lengthy deskjob days, might even get a few more dreaded calories off that way
Free speech was meant to be free for all... how can anyone grow up in a nanny state ?
How the hell do you kneel in a "normal office chair" in a manner which permits ergonomically correct computer use?
Wherever possible, don't work long hours. Go home, spend time with your significant other/pet/family/hobbies.
Can't be just me - I'd rather be at home than at work. That's why they have to pay me to be here ...
I blew one up. I was heavy, yes, but 90kg heavy. Don't get a cheap ball, or you will be the butt of many jokes when it pops underneath your constant bouncing.
For the curious, it sounds like this: sssSSSBAM
http://www.squidoo.com/walkingwhileworking
I have a treadmill workstation set up and walked on it for four hours this morning (at 0.5 mph) while writing email (although according to Dr. James Levine at the Mayo Clinic anywhere from 0.7 to 1.2 mph is a better rate). I have a keyboard resting on a stick and bungee cord across the handles. The treadmill faces the wall where I have three LCD monitors on a shelf at a good viewing height when standing in the treadmill. I use a trackball mouse.
Sadly, I have had various technical issues with the particular treadmill itself (mostly with a poor design of the bracket holding the optical encoder for the motor), requiring repairs over the past five years. When that happens I have gotten out of the habit of turning it on, otherwise I'd have used it more. It really is nice to realizing after a period of writing or programming that you have walked for a couple hours. Exercise is best when built-into daily life; see:
http://singularityhub.com/2009/07/20/blue-zones-places-in-the-world-where-people-live-to-100-and-stay-healthy/
I agree with you that switching positions makes a lot of sense. I alternate walking, standing, and sitting on a tall stool (though some days I don't use the treadmill for whatever reason).
I feel the human body is well adapted to a few positions for extended durations -- walking, lying down (up to ten hours per day), squatting, and swimming. Pretty much any other position is ergonomically problematical for more than a short time (including sitting or standing). The problem with standing by itself, as opposed to walking, is that the blood can pool in the legs. However, you can combat that somewhat by shuffling your feet now and then and taking walking breaks now and then.
I had a standing desk before the treadmill (alternating with sitting on a tall stool), and liked it better than a chair. But I like the treadmill option a lot more. They are not that expensive to set up, especially considering how much time they can get used. (~US$800 plus some carpentry probably.)
That said, we also set a treadmill workstation up for my wife, but she finds she can't type when walking on it (but she likes to use it to watch video). So, her treadmill is essentially a standing desk most of the time. So, YMMV.
A big problem with treadmills is they weigh 200 pounds typically, and people can easily get hurt moving them (especially up or down stairs). That can make it harder to rearrange or move offices. And as above, they may require maintenance. Also, treadmill walking may be tougher on the ankles and knees than walking outdoors on a nicer surface. Also, beware becoming Vitamin D deficient if using the treadmill replaces outdoor exercise in the sun.
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
Yet to try it out though.
No single position is best. Movement is required.
I have mastered a Web Site (WoodwareDesigns) on the design of low-stress computer furniture since 1995. The key to ergonomic design is to keep the body in natural positions. All joints are worked by pairs of mussels which oppose each other. These pairs must be kept in balance. This is why ergonomic keyboards are bent. This also requires the body to be in a upright sitting position except under exceptional situations. You cannot even slough, let alone sit in a beanbag. You also need to get up and move around about every 20 minutes to break the “repetitive” in repetitive stain energy. Sorry, you are a human being and you are just going to have to look after you body.
-Ergotron adjustable desk. (Sitting to standing in an easy second)
-Ergotron adjustable monitor arm.
-Evoluent verticle mouse.
Adjust between sitting and standing once an hour or so. Walk around at least once an hour. Move limbs around full range of motion at least once an hour. Set an alarm or a checklist to do this.
...have been the only solution I have found to the worst ailment I have suffered - (outstretched arms) key-board/monitor neck.
Thanks for asking .Well, my feelings on squatting based on what I've read and learned about other cultures (including indigenous people in various places. etc.); but see for example the various benefits listed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squatting_position ... Most western adults cannot place their heels flat on the ground when squatting because of shortened Achilles tendons largely caused by habitually: * sitting on chairs or seats [&] * wearing shoes with heels (especially high heels)... For this reason the squatting position is usually not sustainable for them for more than a few minutes as heels-up squatting is a less stable position than heels-down squatting."
"Young children squat instinctively as a continuous movement from standing up whenever they want to lower themselves to ground level. One and two year olds can commonly be seen playing in a stable squatting position, with feet wide apart and bottom not quite touching the floor, although at first they need to hold onto something to stand up again.
Actually, I was going to add "climbing" to that list as well (considering likely human heritage...) which for humans is a set of movements in some way similar to swimming.
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.