Microsoft Working On "Surface 2" Tablet

SternisheFan snips this news from Tech Radar: "The Surface tablets that Microsoft will start selling on 26 October at Microsoft Stores (and in temporary 'holiday stores' in twelve US cities including New York) are only the first of a planned family of Windows devices and Surface 2.0 is already under development. Although Microsoft corporate communications chief Frank Shaw said recently that calling Surface 'our new family of PCs built to be the ultimate stage for Windows' was no more than 'literary licence' and that there was nothing more than the two tablets already announced, the Surface team is 'currently building the next generation' of 'devices that fully express the Windows vision' — according to more than a dozen job adverts posted on the Microsoft Careers site between June and August."

Comments

Building the microsoft vision

[phantomfive]

'currently building the next generation' of 'devices that fully express the Windows vision'

The Windows vision is to make Microsoft money. They have no clue how they'll do it, but they're going to try.

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[symbolset]

Obviously they'll take share and make money by making Windows not work as well on the hardware of their OEM competitors. That won't be hard to do as they must write the drivers for the hardware - the OEMs can't - and these days they're streaming updates so they can make your Dell PC gradually progressively worse instead of waiting for a new Windows version. This has been their go-to strategy with software competitors since, I think, 1986.

Just in case you're going to get all [citation needed] on me... Here's Microsoft's internal communications about doing this to Novell and here is the painful Novell internal emails about how Outlook 95 broke email on install for users Novell's GroupWise. These are just two recently transcribed documents of 3,600 from the Comes v. Microsoft case that was settled just a few days after the plaintiff put the documents up on their website because Microsoft failed to seal them - and they are all very, very bad. Fortunately some thoughtful people archived them.

OEMs have always known that Microsoft did this to software vendors, and they looked away because they were getting theirs. Lotus, Borland, Aldus, Ashton-Tate and many others fell the same way. Well now it's the OEMs turn to play Microsoftball blindfolded and with their legs hobbled, giving their competitor an advanced look at their strategy.

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[phantomfive]

Windows is one of the only things that actually brings Microsoft profit.

And do you think it will continue to do so on the tablet? There is nothing about Microsoft Tablet that says, "yes, people will by this in hoards." Who do you know that is planning on standing in line on the release day for a Microsoft Tablet?

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[Anonymous Coward]

Who do you know that is planning on standing in line on the release day for a Microsoft Tablet?

These guys: http://www.burson-marsteller.com/default.aspx

You could be too, if you want to make a few bucks: http://tbe.taleo.net/NA3/ats/careers/jobSearch.jsp?org=BM&cws=1

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[fustakrakich]

There is nothing about Microsoft Tablet that says, "yes, people will by this in hoards."

No, but if they make a nice dramatic price drop, it might do the trick. Worked for HP. And it's about time the prices come down. The best ones shouldn't cost any more than 200 dollars. They're stamping them out pretty fast now.

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[phantomfive]

ok, your post is showing your biases, and makes you sound like an idiot racist. Clearly you have a bias against people with kids.

Because that's what Microsoft stores have become, a babysitting shop. They tend to have a lot of people, but look around, they majority tend to be people with kids. And those kids want to play the X-boxes, though maybe not buy them. And the parents look trashy because, well, they don't care what people think about them anymore. Which is a good thing.

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[poly_pusher]

The pro version should cost much more than 200. They will include Intel processors, fully fledged windows 8 and be capable of running desktop software. including modern games. A good reference for the pro Surface tablets is the Samsung Series 7 Slate. It starts around 1000 dollars. I don't expect the Surface equivalents to be below 600 to 800.

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[Sir_Sri]

There is nothing about Microsoft Tablet that says

True, but the plan of developing software, prototyping hardware and hoping the 3rd party manufacturers would make something materialize that was worth buying didn't work, and they tried that plan for 10 years.

Trying something else may not go anywhere either. But clearly the last plan didn't work, and somehow android has been adopted for slate form factors even though no one ever tried that with windows, when it could have been tried* years before the iPad. I suspect this is microsofts way of negotiating with it's hardware providers, they better get off their collective arses and start at least trying different things, or microsoft will.

*caveats. Yes they had convertible tablets, I've owned several over the years and they worked quite well for a lot of things. And yes, they had slate form prototypes in what, 2002, but no one tried to market those for whatever reason.

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[ozmanjusri]

Why is this being moderated Troll?

This is exactly what Microsoft do. They have always tried to make subtle incompatibilities for competitors products.

Java, Secure Boot, OOXML, H264, their ACPI trickery, Mono/Silverlight and so on ad nauseum.

Even Microsoft knows they're an unreliable business partner. This is from their SEC filing: "...our Surface devices will compete with products made by our OEM partners, which may affect their commitment to our platform." "Users may increasingly turn to these [mobile] devices to perform functions that would have been performed by personal computers in the past," "Even if many users view these devices as complementary to a personal computer, the prevalence of these devices may make it more difficult to attract applications developers to our platforms."

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[phantomfive]

It's fine for them to build something because no one else is, but it's better if they'd build something that people want to buy.

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[ozmanjusri]

No, but if they make a nice dramatic price drop, it might do the trick.

This is what kind of tablet $41 buys you right now in China:

7" 1.2GHz Allwinner A13 Q88 tablet, 5 point capacitive Screen, Android 4.0, 512MB RAM, 4GB Storage, Webcam, Wifi

http://www.aliexpress.com/product-fm/611000195-7-Allwinner-A13-Q88-tablet-pc-5-point-capacitive-Screen-android-4-0-Multi-Touch-1-wholesalers.html

How much margin do you think there'd be for Windows OS on hardware like that?

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[hairyfeet]

Uhhh...those were under gates, who hasn't been running the show since 1999 and frankly it shows. personally I'd much rather have Gates as he may have been a bastard, but he was a bastard that could build good office OSes.

No dude what we have here is just another chapter in the continuing saga of Steve "I wanna work in Cupertino LOL!" Ballmer, the used car salesman of the corporate world. what we'll get is half assed knockoff that won't work worth a shit and will bomb, simple as that. hell look at the man's track record, Zune, Kin,WinCE, WinPhone, pushing out the X360 with a 2 billion dollar hardware flaw...the man can snatch defeat from victory quicker than the PHB from Dilbert.

So seriously dude, the 90s are over, get over it, okay? windows will stay on X86 which is gonna be like washers and dryers in that nobody will replace until the previous one dies, and if you want someone to be scared of you need to be scared of Brin and Cook, not Ballmer. The days of "the big bad M$" are as gone as the days of "the big bad big blue IBM" are, its over, its done, the fat lady is down the street having a sammich.

Ya wanna know what happens to the OEMs? Here let me break out my crystal ball...Win 8 shits the bed, OEMs demand win 7 downgrade rights and get it, WinTabs end up on Woot! for 80% off as people wait around the block for iPad 5.awesome. Frankly Gabe at Valve will come out with a Steambox and drive another nail in the coffin for MSFT, Ballmer will retire declaring victory based on how many win 8 licenses sold (while ignoring that like Vista its just a DVD sitting in a box that nobody uses) and once fatboy is gone the board will bring in somebody with a brain, maybe lure Allchin or Ozzie back, and MSFT will become the new IBM.

So get over it friend, just let it go. MSFT won the desktop which is flatline and will stay that way, Google will lock down Android and they and Apple will control mobile with an iron hand, meanwhile you'll shake your fist at the old tiger in the corner wheezing and limping along because once upon a time they were actually scary.

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[Anonymous Coward]

Google will lock down Android and they and Apple will control mobile with an iron hand,

Oh dear, credibility is so hard to come by and so easy to shed.

Android is open source, and Google is opening code releases faster with each version. They may be tightening controls on their repository to combat malware, but the OS is free and staying that way.

http://source.android.com/

Android share of the smartphone market is around 60%, roughly double that of Apple. Apple may have an "Iron hand", but that just means the more they tighten their grip, the more market share will slip through their fingers.

http://niche-marketing-production.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Sales-Mar-121.png

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[symbolset]

68 percent for 2012Q2, and still rising - four times Apple.

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[RocketRabbit]

There is no way that they will sell this product for less than the entry-level iPad. First, they don't have the volume to get the parts any cheaper than Apple does. Second, pricing something too cheaply influences the buyer into thinking they are getting a shitty product.

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[RocketRabbit]

How's the OP a racist? He / she gave it to pretty much all the races equally. Of course, he forgot to mention the dirty Spics or the haughty Heebs.

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[phantomfive]

Hating all races equally is still racist, if you are denigrating people base on their race.

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[symbolset]

Wow that's a thoughtful, complex post. Let's deal with these issues one at a time.

Para 1: Bill is gone. Bill Gates remains the chairman of the board at Microsoft, and hand-picked all the other board members - who pick the CEO and evaluate his performance, give him goals and guidance, set his pay, bonuses and options, and set policy. Bill is still very much responsible for what goes on there, and weighs in on every big decision.

Para 2: Steve Ballmer. You neglected to mention the sea of red ink that is Microsoft's Online Services Division. I happen to like the direction Steve Ballmer is taking Microsoft. Clearly this is a man with vision and purpose who is ready and able to take the company where I want it to go. It takes Marvel Comics level superpowers to get rid of this much cash flow, to destroy a 42 percent success in mobile market share from 2007 given their advantages and high hopes, to so capably destroy the morale and productivity of the world's best developers, to put a company with this much income in $55B of debt. So let's lay off of Steve-o, mmkay? I like him where he is, sweaty shirt and all.

Para 3: No more Big, Bad MS. With the OOXML debacle that nearly ruined ISO, their recent rape of Nokia, their current ongoing rape of OEMs, retail vendors of both their products and Windows PCs, their planned rape of software distributor partners, developers and competing independent software vendors and much much more they prove every day that they have not changed. Last week they confirmed they're going to murder the advertisers they bought relationships with in an acquisition by making "Do Not Track" the default in IE. Just yesterday it came out that the new replacement for Hotmail, Outlook.com is incompatible with Android. The "new kinder, gentler Microsoft" is a myth. They have now declared war on absolutely everybody on Earth, including the people who pay for their products and excepting only the Women's Temperance Union and media executives. Naturally this means I expect them to announce an embedded bittorent feature for IE that involves a drinking game next.

Para 4. Ballmer outbound. Steve Ballmer is not retiring for another seven years at least, when his last kid goes off to college.

Para 5. Immortal desktop victory. It's not enough to take ground. Once you take ground, you have to hold it. MS won mobile with 40% share too [link above], once upon a time. And now they'r

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[jyjjy]

"fully fledged windows 8 and be capable of running desktop software. including modern games."

You mean fully capable of running games and software if developers decide to support it with games and software designed to be usable with a touch screen interface. It will be capable of "running" regular games and software designed for a normal computer with mouse/keyboard in a painfully awkward manner.

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[jyjjy]

I suspect there would be no margin on a tablet that can't even remotely run the OS properly.

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[symbolset]

This is supposed to happen. The mods are going to go back and forth on this one for a while. Don't worry about me: I have infinite Karma. I can bear it - I do this all the time. I'm actually a honeypot the admins use to detect moderation abuse, among other things. Only the noob astroturfers try that now and they immediately lose their mod privileges and get their IP address flagged for monitoring.

It's working. Don't mess with it.

/Q: Do people lie on the Internet?

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[symbolset]

TANSTAAFL

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[symbolset]

Geez, what do you think that lame tablet can do? Let's review what a real OS needs, from the Windows XP spec:

Pentium 233-megahertz (MHz) processor or faster (300 MHz is recommended)
At least 64 megabytes (MB) of RAM (128 MB is recommended)
At least 1.5 gigabytes (GB) of available space on the hard disk
CD-ROM or DVD-ROM drive
Keyboard and a Microsoft Mouse or some other compatible pointing device
Video adapter and monitor with Super VGA (800 x 600)or higher resolution
Sound card
Speakers or headphones

Oh my, how ever is a 1600 MHz 4+1 core Tegra 3, 1GB RAM, 16GB SSD tablet ever going to get across that high bar?

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[Hognoxious]

Apple will control mobile with an iron hand

Iron hand or iron hoof?

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[Hognoxious]

Of course, this is phones shipped and not phones sold. Nobody actually buys an Android phone, they get it free with their plan.

I often wondered why the telcos don't pass on their cost by rolling it into the subscription charges.

Now I know why. There's no cost, because the service providers get them for nothing with free express unicorn delivery.

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[Hognoxious]

to so capably destroy the morale and productivity of the world's best developers

You had me up until that point.

Nice one, sir.

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[Hognoxious]

people will pass by this in hordes

FTFY.

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[wvmarle]

Obviously they'll take share and make money by making Windows not work as well on the hardware of their OEM competitors.

At least they still allow Windows to run on third-party hardware. Their major competitor in the tablet market, and second largest vendor of PCs and laptops, is not so generous. Yet no-one complains about that...

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[Rockoon]

You would have a point if it didnt come with a keyboard and trackpad that is always with the device. In other words, you have no point.

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[ozmanjusri]

I have one in my hands right now. It's a reasonable machine, certainly usable for web browsing, Facebook, email, Skype etc. Pretty much what most people use their computers for.

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[RulerOf]

Of course, this is phones shipped and not phones sold. Nobody actually buys an Android phone, they get it free with their plan.

I often wondered why the telcos don't pass on their cost by rolling it into the subscription charges.

Because if they did that, it would have to be a line item that they charged you for on the bill. And then, after the "contract period" expired, they wouldn't have grounds to continue charging you the same price, in spite of the fact that you "repaid" the subsidy a long, long time ago.

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[l0ungeb0y]

Dude - you are a supreme troll for trotting out that graph. I mean, can you even read the damn thing? Are you capable of objective thinking?

ICP has hitting the OEM rollout over the last few months and everyone and their brother is holding their breath for iPhone 5 -- It should be out this fall. So it only goes that the sales numbers will decline, it's SV tradition -- just look to the Osbourne.

Paste that graph again in November and talk to us then about how the Smartphone Market is slipping through Apple's "Iron Hand".
Sals ebb and flow like the tide nd your little chart just shows that as new iOS and Android products come out the line, their sales adjust accordingly. But don't let reality stop you from declaring iOS dead.

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[ClaraBow]

Apple have always been a hardware company and it uses its software to sell hardware. MS has always been a software company that made money by licensing its software to OEMs.

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[mrclisdue]

+1 true dat

chores,

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[phantomfive]

I try to be informative whenever I can. When I can't, mocking Microsoft is a good second option. FWIW, I was only 40% informative, 40% was insightful.

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[phantomfive]

Oh but come on, 'devices that fully express the Windows vision'?

You have to admit that's a phrase of corporate-speak that deserves to be mocked.

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[poly_pusher]

You really think that is a compelling argument? You seriously believe what you are saying?

1. Game controllers will work great with it. I even have a bluetooth contoller hooked up to my android tablet and it works beautifully.

2. Many of the Windows 8 tablets are convertibles and come with a keyboard dock for office type work and a pressure sensitive stylus for creative endeavors.

3. For applications like photoshop, Maya, Zbrush, etc. a stylus will work beautifully. Try out a Wacom tablet for a bit. It's a great way to work.

4. I'm actually less interested in Surface than I am in the Asus Transformer Book. It will have discrete graphics, a full qwerty keyboard dock, a Wacom pressure sensitive stylus, 16x9 ratio, and various size offerings between 11 and 14 inches. I'm an artist and a 14 inch screen I can draw directly on with pressure sensitivity is a huge plus.

I'll even give you some legitimate arguments for the future you can use against this, however I feel the advantages far outweigh the limited and resolvable issues.

1. Most x86 Slates are top heavy when connected to the keyboard dock. Even many ARM-based Android convertibles are.

2. Battery life will be poor when pushing the system with games and DCC apps.

3. Heat could become a problem when cramming so much high powered stuff in such a little space. However, that remains to be seen.

4. 2 or 4gb of memory is pretty slim for a Windows tablet. Windows 8 is very efficient with memory usage but the problem lies in memory hungry programs like the ones listed above. An 8 gb model really is neccessary for a professional device.

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[Sir_Sri]

Without a doubt. Unfortunately you don't always know what people will buy.

I think that's the point here, MS made a form factor people will buy, but the manufacturers didn't pick it up and even try. So MS is really unhappy. Whether or not they make anything people will buy is hard to say, but credit for trying.

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[jyjjy]

Yes, sure, with Android installed. Windows 8 is not designed to run on such hardware.

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[hazydave]

I agree... keep Ballmer where he is. He's doing so much good for everyone who's NOT Microsoft (well... and Nokia, though really, that level of stupidity came primarily from Elop, not Ballmer), it would be risky to remove him.

And they do seem very much to be doing for the desktop, with Windows 8, what they did somehow with Windows Mobile. The one real problem, though: where's the alternative? WinMo sucked and didn't evolve, sure. But it also took the iPhone and Android to really clobber Microsoft.

With MacOS both itself evolving in bad ways, and being an Apple product, that can't be a large scale alternative.

And sure, there's desktop Linux. But there had been handtop Linux as well, lots of them, in fact, and they didn't really go anywhere, either. Linux, at least as presented in Android, won the handset simply because there was just one binary applications socket (eg, no need for source distribution) and, of course, it was all very consumer friendly. That's very not the case with Linux right now. And every time it looks like something might happen in that direction, bad things happen. Like Ubuntu going all weird last year. Without a 900lbs gorilla like Google pushing the buttons, I don't think desktop Linux will ever be a serious threat to Windows.

Re:Building the microsoft vision

[hazydave]

You probably wouldn't want Windows on that machine, anyway... not that you have the choice. Only OEMs are getting Windows for ARM. It's as locked down as an iPad.

Thing is, you're completely correct on the software pricing thing. Microsoft isn't giving this stuff away, and they're going to want typical MS licensing fees. In fact, at least to date, they're only offering Windows on ARM bundled with Office. That's going to be a significant chunk of change for anyone building a tablet and pricing it at a point that'll actually sell (eg, much less than an iPad, unless they have "luxury branding" that can compete with Apple). So MS is already setting up a 20% or so price/profit advantage between their tablets and any other Windows tablets. Makes them potentially more competitive with Apple.. only, the "Microsoft" brand absolutely doesn't have that luxury branding in the CE market -- no one's going to pay Apple prices for a Microsoft product. Maybe it works better in some businesses?

Why is this news?

[Anonymous Coward]

Surface 1 is done. Of course they are working on Surface 2 and maybe even Surface 3.
In other news, Apple is working on iPhone 6.
Samsung is working on Galaxy S4.

And so on...

Re:Why is this news?

[Anonymous Coward]

2013! Year of the windows tablet! ...and maybe year of the windows phone 2014!

Re:Why is this news?

[Alter_3d]

Meh. Wake me up when they reach Surface 7. But not Surface 8. I hear it looks too much like a PC.

Re:Why is this news?

[McGruber]

It's news because it indicates that Microsoft's marketing department does not know of Osborne Computer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_Computer_Corporation

Re:Why is this news?

[sootman]

Who wants to wait that long? Surface 3.11 for Workgroups is when I'll buy.

Re:Why is this news?

[shutdown -p now]

Hey, it works for Apple.

Re:Why is this news?

[xswl0931]

How is marketing involved in an employment ad for an engineer?

Re:Why is this news?

[Pascal Sartoretti]

It's news because it indicates that Microsoft's marketing department does not know of Osborne Computer

RTFA : the "information" does not come from PR, but from HR through job adverts.

And I don't think that the potential existence of Surface 2 might refrain people from buying Surface 1 : at least, it shows that Microsoft is a bit committed and not just simply testing the market...

Re:Why is this news?

[wvmarle]

Apple will formally announce and show off a new version when it's ready, and usually has it available in the shops the next day. Everything else is just rumours, but it continues to surprise me how much Apple lives up to the rumours. They live up more to unofficial rumours, than MS lives up to their own pre-product announcements.

Everybody knows a company will not stop developing when a product is out. But announcing and starting to show off a successor changes the game a lot, as it gives people something concrete to wait for.

Re:Why is this news?

[Gr8Apes]

It's standard MS marketing philosophy - if your current product is crap, show the masses something shiny. If that is surpassed or insufficient to stem the bleeding tide, pre-announce an even better product in an attempt to sow uncertainty and keep people on the sidelines until you can produce some POS that will be called whatever you promised but failed to deliver. In the meantime, the lack of growing sales stunts or decimates the competition, allowing MS to step in and remove the "failed" competitor. (See Chicago, Blackcomb, Longhorn for previous examples)

Their main problem this time around? They're attempting to take 3 battling titans (Apple, Google, and Samsung) on that have leapfrogged everything they have ever conceived, and there is considerable doubt whether they'll even be able to make a viable entry into the market. It's kind of like a Model T trying to compete in the Indy 500. (obligatory car analogy) MS is last century's software company. It took them 30 years to climb to the top, and it appears they'll take 10 years to fall down to a mere competitor. Make no mistake about it - MS is a shrinking company.

Re:Why is this news?

[steelfood]

On the contrary. Apple didn't do as well this past quarter than expected. They attributed it to anticipation for the iPhone 5.

Re:Why is this news?

[shutdown -p now]

Okay, so it worked for Steve then. ~

Surface 2 -- Zune's Revenge!

[Anonymous Coward]

Coming soon to a Marked Down bin near the check-out counter near you!

It sucks to be a Windows OEM right now

[93 Escort Wagon]

Actually, a more accurate statement would probably be "it sucks to own stock in a Windows OEM right now". It's pretty obvious Microsoft intends to emulate Apple; and, if everything goes according to plan, the OEMs will all shrivel up and die.

On the bright side, Microsoft may fail.

Re:It sucks to be a Windows OEM right now

[EnsilZah]

I know Ballmer is known to shoot a toe once in a while but I doubt he's dumb enough to blow both his legs clean off.

Re:It sucks to be a Windows OEM right now

[UnknowingFool]

If MS makes a version they have a big advantage in cost. OEMs have very thin margins as it is. MS making computers will pay a lot less for Win 8 as it will be an internal cost. Even if OEMs pay as little as $20 for Win 8, that's $20 MS doesn't have to pay.

Re:It sucks to be a Windows OEM right now

[swillden]

It's pretty obvious Microsoft intends to emulate Apple

Not very well. Have you ever heard Apple discussing the next version of their product before the current version ships? No, Apple is much too smart to do that. Every new Apple product is the greatest thing ever and all focus is on that greatness and how everyone needs to get that greatness now. Even as the last product ages and it becomes clear to everyone that Apple must be getting close to releasing the next version, they keep it mum until they can announce it with huge fanfare as the new greatest thing ever, and start shipping it immediately. Further, they carefully hold that announcement until inventory of the previous model is depleted so they're not left holding unsaleable units.

I know that's not what you were referring to, but talking about Surface 2 right now is a bonehead move that Apple wouldn't have made.

Re:It sucks to be a Windows OEM right now

[lister king of smeg]

Especially if Microsoft sells them at or below cost so as to get people interested kind of like amazons does with their kindles and kindle fire expecting people to spend money on apps and make up their profit there.

Re:It sucks to be a Windows OEM right now

[wvmarle]

MS doesn't have anything like an app market, like Amazon has a book store.

The product of Amazon is book sales; the Kindle is their vehicle to stimulate those sales. I don't see anything Microsoft has that they could sell though the Surface tablet.

Re:It sucks to be a Windows OEM right now

[pfaffa]

yet

Re:It sucks to be a Windows OEM right now

[VikingOfNorth]

Still, selling Windows licenses to OEMs continues to be Microsoft's meat and potatoes. So if everything goes catastrophically wrong, they lose their OEM customers AND they'll never break through to the tablet market... right?

Just some optimistic thinking, but from my (naive) point of view, Microsoft is making plenty of phenomenally bad business decisions in a row.

Re:It sucks to be a Windows OEM right now

[bankman]

I think this has a lot to do with FUD no longer working so well for Microsoft. There was a time when they just had to annouce that they were planning to develop something along the lines of XY and everybody in the market for XY got scared shitless. Competitors stopped actual development on their version of XY (because if MS was developing it, they had no chance) and customers would wait for MSs version of XY because it would become the standard. This worked well for a very long time.

No longer. It seems that the market as a whole has eventually come to realize that Microsoft rarely succeeds at anything they say they are targeting. Too often they have failed to deliver anything worth mentioning and in some very important (ie. visual) markets they are not even considered to be players.

Apple don't even have to play the FUD game because there are no competitors in their core markets. Not one player has the same marketing position and worship of their eternally ignorant customers.

Interesting times indeed...

Re:It sucks to be a Windows OEM right now

[UnknowingFool]

OEMs might offer/push Win 7 instead of Win 8 as payback. That way MS doesn't get a larger install base of Win 8. As an OEM, I would do this for practical reasons if I don't offer many touch products and I won't have to get as many support calls.

Re:It sucks to be a Windows OEM right now

[UnknowingFool]

I expect MS to try get an app market like Amazon or Apple however like the Zune marketplace or the WP7 marketplace, it will be an uphill battle.

Osbourne Effect

[cpu6502]

I'm not buying a Surface 1.0.
I'll wait for the Surface 2.0 instead.
--
"The name comes from the planned replacement of the Osborne 1 computer. In 1983 founder Adam Osborne pre-announced several next-generation computer models (the "Executive" and "Vixen" models), which had not yet been built, highlighting the fact that they would outperform the existing model. A widely-held belief was that sales of the Osborne 1 fell sharply as customers anticipated those more advanced systems, and dealers cancelled orders." And the company went bankrupt.

Other examples:
"In 1978, North Star Computers announced a new version of their floppy disk controller, which had double the capacity, to be sold at the same price as their existing range. Sales of the existing products plummeted and the company almost went bankrupt."

"When Sega began publicly discussing their next-generation system, barely two years after launching the Saturn, it became a self-defeating prophecy. This move, combined with Sega's recent history of short-lived consoles, led to a chain reaction that quickly caused the Saturn's future to collapse. Immediately following the announcement, sales of the console and software substantially tapered off in the second half of 1997, while many planned games were canceled, causing the console's life expectancy to shorten substantially."

Re:Osbourne Effect

[Mabhatter]

Really, they need to be more tight lipped. One of Apple's points is that they don't leak, so they don't lose sales "waiting". You can't "go back" and get money customers didn't spend this quarter... It's gone. People that wait generally didn't keep the money handy, so they don't buy "more".

Apple is already citing that as a reason for diminished quarter... Because everybody KNOWS we get a new iPhone, iPad, iPod each year.

The obvious question is that if Surface 1.0 isn't released, why are they working on 2.0? Microsoft hasn't released ANY Surface yet... Stop assuming anybody will care about the NEXT one... Or worse, what features are they going to leave OUT? This becomes like iOS updates where people get upset when only this YEAR's model gets all the new features.

Re:Osbourne Effect

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, it's not the first time MS does "Hey, guys! Don't buy $PRODUCT_A, we're working on $PRODUCT_B and it will knock your socks off!", but AFAICR they usually do that with competitors' stuff, not their own.

Re:Osbourne Effect

[Threni]

They did the same with their phones:

http://mashable.com/2012/06/25/lumia-why-no-upgrade/

Release v7 phones then announce that they won't be able to work on v8 phones.

Guess it's a bit like their close partner Nokia, with the famous Burning Platform memo:

http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/08/nokia-ceo-stephen-elop-rallies-troops-in-brutally-honest-burnin/

Re:Osbourne Effect

[Anonymous Coward]

It's lucky for you that Wikipedia is under a creative commons license. Otherwise they'd be suing you right now for copyright infringement.

Original!

But hey at least this way you can karma-whore without having to come up with anything. Just regurgitate data.

Re:Osbourne Effect

[__aaqvdr516]

Apple might not leak, but is it really surprising that any company is working on "the next version"?

What company in their right mind would put out a device and say "yep, I think we'll just stop developing anything further for the next 5 years while we sell this one."

The only thing that needs to be held under wraps is potential release dates.

Re:Osbourne Effect

[dougsyo]

Particularly given that they INTENTIONALLY and KNOWINGLY left Windows Phone 7 folk in a lurch with Windows Phone 8...

Re:Osbourne Effect

[ceoyoyo]

Windows XP?

Re:Osbourne Effect

[dbIII]

It became a dead platform anyway once they bought Skype. Carriers hate Skype and now they hate Microsoft.

Re:Osbourne Effect

[hairyfeet]

Actually I think the Sega example is a better analogy as like Sega MSFT is notorious from just walking away from products, see Zune, Kin, Sidekick, and from the looks of it anybody who buys a WinPhone 7 won't get the Win 8 update...so why in the hell would you buy a MSFT mobile product? Answer: you shouldn't.

At least with X86 Windows you know to the day when its EOL thanks to the corporate agreements and their own roadmap but with mobile the only way buying a MSFT device would be worth it is if you got it at Woot! firesale prices.

Re:Osbourne Effect

[oakgrove]

Guess it's a bit like their close partner Nokia, with the famous Burning Platform memo

Maybe I'm just not boardroom savvy enough to comprehend the subtle inticracies of an executive master plan but what the hell was Elop thinking? They could have done any number of things to slowly build up excitement for their Windows Phones without taking the excruciatingly and so obviously disastrous step of Osbourning their still profitable at the time Symbian business. He had to know they were going to still support the Symbian handsets for years down the road. There was the PureView that was in the labs and the Asha and Belle phones still to come. But he comes out and drives a stake directly in the heart of consumer desire for the platform by essentially telling them "don't bother, Symbian sucks" yet with no replacement product anywhere near ready and several unreleased Symbian products in the pipeline. And of course as expected, the stock price took a dump and Symbian sales fell off a cliff. I mean, what the fuck was the point of that?

Re:Osbourne Effect

[lister king of smeg]

you posted it before i could

Re:Osbourne Effect

[shutdown -p now]

Really, they need to be more tight lipped. One of Apple's points is that they don't leak, so they don't lose sales "waiting".

By now, everybody knows that iPhone and iPad get refreshed in one year cycles. The only thing you don't know in advance is what, exactly, will change in the next version. But then you don't know this here, either.

The obvious question is that if Surface 1.0 isn't released, why are they working on 2.0?

Because there is enough manpower to work on both?

Stop assuming anybody will care about the NEXT one

They call it a "bet". If you bet right, you can sometimes get a pretty spectacular pay-iff.

Re:Osbourne Effect

[RocketRabbit]

What do you mean what was he thinking? It's obvious to everybody that he's a torpedo executive sent to sink the Nokia ship. In that sense he is exceeding all expectations!

Re:Osbourne Effect

[rtfa-troll]

By now, everybody knows that iPhone and iPad get refreshed in one year cycles. The only thing you don't know in advance is what, exactly, will change in the next version. But then you don't know this here, either.

Apple has been pretty consistent in ensuring that at least two devices into the past are supported. This means that even if you buy the previous version of an iPad around when the new one is launched, or even up to a year later, you can be pretty sure that you will be looked after for most of the lifetime of your device. One of the biggest problems with Android devices and the best reason to buy a Nexus is that only Google has been similarly reliable with future support. Microsoft, on the other hand has clearly shown it's hand with the Windows Phone 7 to 8 transition. The first buyers are considered paying beta testers who are expected to upgrade again.

We're going to hear arguments that that doesn't apply to Windows 8 which is the all new platform and has all the new Microsoft stuff. Whilst that might apply to Windows on the desktop, the chances are that on the tablet they will have to make quite radical changes. Most likely either x86 or ARM will be killed. There's no way that such a tiny ecosystem can support the level of fragmentation which two processor architectures with totally different power characteristics suggest. Worse, it's impossible to tell which; if Microsoft knew they would have already done so.

Re:Osbourne Effect

[rtfa-troll]

I mean, what the fuck was the point of that?

Remember, even in a private company, the CEO doesn't have full decision power. The board can effectively overrule him and he can't get rid of the people under him or fully control them without the board's support. A number of those people probably looked at Microsoft's history in mobile (Microsoft's market share has continually declined overall in mobile having previously been in double digits) and foresaw disaster.

Elop was setting out to destroy the power base of people who might try to push for backup second strategies. In doing that he was trying to force any sane members left on the board over to his side. I'd say he was successful in that. There seem to be two explanations going around for why he wanted to do that 1) he was crazy and believed that only complete commitment to Windows could save the company 2) he actively and deliberately wanted to destroy Nokia. As I see him killing off further products which could have bought him time and money (N9 / Meltimi) I get more and more convinced of 2).

Re:Osbourne Effect

[shutdown -p now]

Most likely either x86 or ARM will be killed. There's no way that such a tiny ecosystem can support the level of fragmentation which two processor architectures with totally different power characteristics suggest.

Why, if that level of fragmentation is largely transparent to both the users and the developers?

The "totally different power characteristics" argument is also bogus. Did you miss Android phones running on x86 (Medfield), showing battery life pretty much in line with ARM? And Clover Field, which is specifically Intel's answer to ARM in tablets (Android and Win8 both).

Re:Osbourne Effect

[rtfa-troll]

Hey dumbass! You didn't see the quotation marks?

It's an interesting thought that you are totally right. If I see a quote in quotation marks without an attribution I immediately know that it's from Wikipedia. That is an amazing level of cultural power when you can start to change the rules of grammar and citation.

Re:Osbourne Effect

[gl4ss]

what was he thinking? he was making public moves to ensure that n9 would tank and that symbian would tank faster than it would(they still sold more symbians than wp's in last quarter, mind you, and were selling symbians more than ever when he made the speech). that way he made sure he could override the board and internal advisors on what to use the marketing budget for(essentially for a product they weren't even shipping yet, funny that).

have you ever seen elop hype up any product that wasn't ms based? hell no. yet he's company is shipping tens of millions of them.

Re:Osbourne Effect

[martin-boundary]

I'm not buying a Surface 1.0. I'll wait for the Surface 2.0 instead.

That's very courageous of you. Me, I'm waiting for Surface 3.11!

Re:Osbourne Effect

[Patch86]

It works for the games consoles...

Re:Osbourne Effect

[Toreo asesino]

I wouldn't be surprised if this is exactly why Slashdot posted this article. Every company with a serious product is obviously going to be developing future versions, this really isn't news, but there's nothing like trying to amplify the message and pretend it's journalism anyway.

Re:Osbourne Effect

[rtfa-troll]

Most likely either x86 or ARM will be killed. There's no way that such a tiny ecosystem can support the level of fragmentation which two processor architectures with totally different power characteristics suggest.

Why, if that level of fragmentation is largely transparent to both the users and the developers?

Requires considerable coordination and effort to keep such a thing transparent. Microsoft's history (NT on the Alpha / Windows on Itanium e.g.) suggests that they don't succeed in sustaining this long term. Transparency will become much more difficult as they want to provide more and more native code.

The "totally different power characteristics" argument is also bogus. Did you miss Android phones running on x86 (Medfield), showing battery life pretty much in line with ARM? And Clover Field, which is specifically Intel's answer to ARM in tablets (Android and Win8 both).

Firstly, I'm not talking only about absolute power, but rather different emphasis. ARM are better in some areas and worse in others. This means that an algorythim which is good on ARM would be bad in Intel and vice versa. If an application wants to get the best out of the platform application power tuning is going to have to be done twice. Most often they aren't going to do that and the battery drain will end up worse.

Secondly, about Intel catching up with ARM. Sorry if I misspeak here; some references would be appreciated if I'm wrong but this seems to me to be future generations of Intel vs. current generations of ARM. It's possible from what I've been hearing that Intel is really about 1/2 a generation of chips ahead and will deliver those early enough to be competing with ARM, but I don't think that this is a sustainable long term advantage. Let's see. Intel has definitely proven the ability to dispose of one generation of RISC architecture chips in the Alpha and PA-RISC. Maybe they can eventually also overcome ARM.

Having said all that, it still wouldn't change my analysis. The Windows RT tablets on the ARM architecture are then providing pure fragmentation with no benefit. It will be possible to provide the same small/thin/cheap tablets from the Intel side and so the ARM tablets will be killed. Whatever limitations Microsoft wants to impose on the users of cheap tablets can be imposed from software.

Re:Osbourne Effect

[shutdown -p now]

Requires considerable coordination and effort to keep such a thing transparent. Microsoft's history (NT on the Alpha / Windows on Itanium e.g.) suggests that they don't succeed in sustaining this long term. Transparency will become much more difficult as they want to provide more and more native code.

I still don't follow. First of all, Win8 development is already doable in 100% native code - that's one of the three available "paths" (the other two being .NET and HTML5/JS), and it was pretty heavily promoted - in fact, for some categories of apps, like games, C++ and DirectX is essentially the recommended choice.

I also don't see how it requires much effort, given the toolchain that can target both platforms equally well. As far as developer is concerned, he needs do nothing special - just hit "Build" in the IDE and get packages produced which he uploads to the store. He writes code only once, in C++. Why would he care that the packages come with both x86 and ARM binaries in them?

Secondly, about Intel catching up with ARM. Sorry if I misspeak here; some references would be appreciated if I'm wrong but this seems to me to be future generations of Intel vs. current generations of ARM.

For references, have a look at reviews of Lava XOLO - that's a shipping Android phone running on Medfield. IIRC, Anandtech had a decent one, with some detailed battery life numbers.

I don't think there are any Clover Field devices in the wild yet, but it's basically just a more powerful version of Medfield, so it should be just as good (or bad). Either way, we'll see when Asus gets its Transformer-like Tablet 810 out, presumably by the end of this year - that's a Clover Field device.

Having said all that, it still wouldn't change my analysis. The Windows RT tablets on the ARM architecture are then providing pure fragmentation with no benefit. It will be possible to provide the same small/thin/cheap tablets from the Intel side and so the ARM tablets will be killed.

I actually agree with that. As a user I don't see any reason to buy an ARM Windows tablet, if there's an x86 one with the same size & weight & power profile - I lose the ability to run legacy apps, while getting... what, exactly? Free Office out of the box?

You have to understand, however, that it's about more than just technological advantages and disadvantages. In US v. Microsoft, the scope of Microsoft's monopoly was defined as "Intel based personal computers". So, on Intel, every step is subject to anti-trust scrutiny in US, and these days (after the IE showdown) also in EU. In EU especially it's a major minefield because fines there grow with every new infraction, and IE litigation has already cost MS something like $3B in the initial fine and all the penalties for non-compliance along the way. Another round would likely be even more costly.

On ARM tablet market, on the other hand, the playing field right now is much more even, and the dominant player is Apple, not MS - so "do as Romans do" with respect to locked bootloader etc is a reasonable excuse...

are linux and osx...

[crutchy]

...soon to be the only operating systems usable with a keyboard?

Re:are linux and osx...

[cpu6502]

You left-out Amiga OS.

I'm waiting for the Apple iPhone 5 to be released rather than buy one now. (I'm hoping the 4 will drop to ~$400 in price.)

Re:are linux and osx...

[gagol]

But you CAN install another DE like XFCE... use what is best for the platform you use.

Re:are linux and osx...

[fustakrakich]

Keyboard... How quaint...

Re:are linux and osx...

[crutchy]

"quaint"... how 19th century

Re:are linux and osx...

[lister king of smeg]

i only count os's that actually have had releases in the last decade

Re:are linux and osx...

[crutchy]

damn... haven't seen that one. i'm more into voyager... ooooh that seven of nine

Re:are linux and osx...

[cpu6502]

>>>i only count os's that actually have had releases in the last decade

AmigaOS 4.1 (2009)
Update 5 released January 28, 2012

Dumbass. And th reason why I call you "dumb" is not because I expected you to know that, but because it only took 30 seconds on wikipedia to discover it. You were just too lazy to do the damn research.

Surface x86 Tablet looks great!

[Anonymous Coward]

The x86 Surface tablet looks fantastic! Fairly lightweight, plenty of power, great screen, full on high resolution stylus and digitizer. It's exactly what I was looking for earlier this year, my absolute dream machine that I spec'd out in my head. Too bad it's stuck with Windows 8.

Re:Surface x86 Tablet looks great!

[gagol]

To me, it seems to be a giant detour to convince us to use only "Trusted" computing. Tablets are computers, only artificially limited and overpriced. We (consumers) are footing the bill for a future where all platforms will be walled garden monopolies. If you like it, kudos to you. I am not touching closed system with a 10 miles pole as I do not want my children to live in a world where computing is limited and watered down.

Simple user interfaces have a place, but why insisting on getting down the throat of everybody? Why not set a parameter to express the level of simplicity you need (child/regular/pro). I just cant figure why we dont have this already!

Re:Surface x86 Tablet looks great!

[Dynedain]

Why do you want x86 on a tablet if you don't want Windows?

If you want to run Linux well there's already Android on Atom and other processors.

Re:Surface x86 Tablet looks great!

[fredgiblet]

Cost.
The fact that you're in the extreme minority
Time

Re:Surface x86 Tablet looks great!

[dbIII]

Real linux on an x86 tablet would be nice. It means you can use a pile of software NOW without having to port it slowly bit by bit to android. There isn't even a decent X on android yet, although that's slowly getting there. Something like Seismic Un*x (http://www.cwp.mines.edu/cwpcodes/) would be wonderful on a tablet but probably a five year nightmare porting it and all it's dependencies to android.

Re:Surface x86 Tablet looks great!

[shutdown -p now]

But it's not stuck with Win8. You'd have to buy it with Win8, but - since it is an Intel device, and therefore UEFI secure boot can be disabled on it - you could put whatever you want on it.

Like Ubuntu with Unity. Or Fedora with Gnome 3. ~

Re:Surface x86 Tablet looks great!

[Tough Love]

Real linux on an x86 tablet would be nice.

Linux on ARM is real Linux.

Re:Surface x86 Tablet looks great!

[dbIII]

See above for the note on porting, which unfortunately applies to different families of CPU as well as different operating systems. Even after porting I'm not sure how floating point performance is on ARM these days either, but it sucked previously simply because that's not what the ARM chips were designed to do.
I'm not knocking linux on ARM - I bought a phone with that.

Re:Surface x86 Tablet looks great!

[shutdown -p now]

Because Microsoft has been previously found to be a monopolist specifically in the area of "Intel based personal computers", so any further move in that area is subject to anti-trust scrutiny.

Re:Surface x86 Tablet looks great!

[Tough Love]

I'm not sure how floating point performance is on ARM these days either, but it sucked previously simply because that's not what the ARM chips were designed to do.

The A15 has a floating point unit.

Re:Surface x86 Tablet looks great!

[dbIII]

Cool. Something with that and debian on it would be useful and 32 bit is not a huge problem.

It'll all end in tears.

[gallondr00nk]

Or more likely, end in mediocrity.

Alpha release

[pubwvj]

They have not yet released version 1.0.
They didn't let reviewers at their media event actually use it.
They're already announcing version 2.0.
Me thinks v1.0 was the alpha to test the waters and they found serious problems.

Re:Alpha release

[roc97007]

"You will love it. That wasn't an observation, nor was it a request."

Re:Alpha release

[unlucky ducky]

They did not announce a version 2, they announced job application spots for a later generation of Surface devices. Not only could this be referring to other kinds of Surface devices, but even if it was an updated version of the first it shouldn't come as a surprise that Microsoft is planning newer devices. Personally I would find it a whole lot more strange if they weren't developing newer possible versions of their products.

Re:Alpha release

[grouchomarxist]

The was no announcement of 2.0, this is only speculation. However, as others have observed, in the tech industry they're always working on 2.0.

Re:Alpha release

[pubwvj]

The was no announcement of 2.0, this is only speculation.

Precisely. So they announce rumors for what isn't announced while they don't sell what isn't available. v1.0 may never make it to actual consumer hands - Microsoft has done that before. Meanwhile they'll either drop it saying the market isn't there (as demonstrated by the totally failed iPad, iPhone, iPod) or they'll bring out 2.0 and call it 1.x or just change the name. Microsoft's afraid to get in the water.

The Surface 2...

[roc97007]

...is the one that will actually work...

Re:The Surface 2...

[EnsilZah]

Bitch please, Surface 3.11 for workgroups.

Re:The Surface 2...

[roc97007]

Hmm. Good point.

STOP THE PRESSES!

[fredgiblet]

Wait, you mean that they aren't going to wait for 2-3 years before starting to work on their next set of hardware?

WHAAARGARBL!!

Is this really news? Cell phone manufacturers probably have 2 or 3 generations in development at a time, Intel probably has 3 or 4 generations planned out (it's why it took so long for them to drop the P4). MS starting wok on the next-gen of tablet is about as newsworthy as Apple making plans for the iPhone 5S.

And unless someone thinks I'm drinking the Haterade, come November I'll be getting either a Kindle Fire 2 or a Surface, probably a Surface.

More vaporware from Microsoft...

[QuietLagoon]

Does Microsoft really think they can freeze the tablet market by announcing vapor-based hardware?

Re:More vaporware from Microsoft...

[0123456]

They can certainly freeze the Windows tablet market...

Re:More vaporware from Microsoft...

[wvmarle]

Totally agreed. They probably did so already. If I were to consider to buy a Windows based tablet, I'd be waiting for the Surface (in a parallel universe or so, you never know, in this universe I'm not even considering to buy a tablet to begin with).

And even in this universe, I'm interested in it. Not to buy, just normal curiousity. The specs are very interesting, the form factor is different from anything else currently on the markt. That's interesting.

Osborne effect ?

[giorgist]

Is this a case of the Osborne effect ?

Case of the Vapours

[dbIII]

The other thing is we know Microsoft's announcements are full of shit - just look at what Longhorn was supposed to already be doing in 2002 and Windows 8 can't do yet in 2012. I don't think this is going to slow things down because not many people are going to believe it until they see some actual hardware instead of some ad with a magic table.

So What

[sociocapitalist]

...and Apple is working on the iPad X, Samsung is working on their Galaxy Y and (name your vendor) is working on their (name their tablet) Z.

How is this news?

Re:WHO CARES?

[miknix]

Reminds me of how the news covers a high-profile trial. "THIS JUST IN! The judge sat down." then "BREAKING NEWS: the prosecutor called a witness!" then "ANOTHER UPDATE: the defense called a witness". then "MORE BREAKING NEWS: Prosecutor says suspect is guilty." "EXCLUSIVE NEW INFO: Defense attorney says accused is innocent." "YET MORE NEWS: the witness sneezed and had to get a tissue." This goes on for days and days and weeks and weeks. Sometimes months.

I wish they'd just shut the fuck up until it's all over and a verdict has been reached, then report on that. Once. If I missed it and it's important to me then I can Google the story later. Quit pretending this minutia is exciting. It isn't, unless you have no life, no significant other, no friends, no meaningful work, and no hobbies. Then the constant micro-updates might be a big deal to you but I wouldn't exactly call that a good thing.

That's what these constant not-yet-released product updates are like.

Aha! Well.. this behavior is profitable for both news companies and software companies, it is some kind of symbiotic relationship. So yeah, we will have to live with it :)

Another DeVry MBA

[Hognoxious]

Because if they did that, it would have to be a line item that they charged you for on the bill.

Really?

When you buy a beer is there a line item for electricity, another for glasswashing detergent, another for depreciation of the stool you're sitting on?

Not unless you're on Ryanair.

Re:Another DeVry MBA

[RulerOf]

When you buy a beer is there a line item for electricity, another for glasswashing detergent, another for depreciation of the stool you're sitting on?

Of course! It was the only way I could get the seat at the bar for free, rather than buying it outright for $699.

It was all covered in the contract that they printed out on the receipt paper.

The name "Surface"

[fartrader]

..is already taken - we'll be calling it the "Next Tablet Microsoft will Release" Tablet.

it al boils down to apps and developers

[Ralph Spoilsport]

If MS can woo developers into making lots of super cheap or free apps for their tablet, then they will do well. If they don't they're road kill.

This means easy-peasey dev environments (on the production end) and a clean, clear, and wildly easy way for users to get the apps. (on the consumption end).

Also, this tablet had damn well better be cheaper than the iPad.

It's not impossible for all this to happen - but if it's cheaper for me to get a small laptop that has more memory and more power than a datapad, I'll buy the laptop....

Re:Pre-announcing Product ..

[rtfa-troll]

It's called pre-announcing product, in order to disuade people from buying your competitors offerings.

You seem to be a time traveller though I'm not sure whether from the future or the past. When I live the surface 1 has not yet been released. This is about the annoucement of the surface 2 which is thereby completely gratuitiously Osborning the surface 1. The delivery of the Surface 1 has been announced but not completed and it is that which is messing over the OEMs.

Anti-Elop myths galore

[21mhz]

It became a dead platform anyway once they bought Skype. Carriers hate Skype and now they hate Microsoft.

[Citation needed]
If you mean to refer to Tomi Ahonen, don't: he basically lied about Elop's response on a shareholders' meeting.

Your whole premise is bogus, anyway. Carriers may hate Skype, but they can't get it out by now, because it's available on iOS and non-bastardized variants of Android.