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Joyent Drops Lifetime Account Holders
New submitter samnorsk writes "I've long been a lifetime account holder of an old textdrive (now Joyent) cloud hosting account. I remember purchasing the account back in college for a few hundred bucks when I really didn't have the money to spend. At the time, I thought that the opportunity to have a persistent lifetime shell / web hosting account would be valuable. This would be a resource I could fall back on no matter what my current situation was. Now, I just received an email stating that Joyent intends to shut down my lifetime account. Quoting: 'We appreciate and value you as one of Joyent's lifetime Shared Hosting customers. As this service is one of our earliest offerings, and has now run its course, your lifetime service will end on October 31, 2012.' They do offer a 512MB cloud machine for one year, but presumably if we don't take that, we're done. In any case, our lifetime commitment would still be dropped in one year if we take that offer. How is it fair or legal for a 'lifetime account' to end when it is no longer convenient for the company? For reference, this was the original offer. In it, they state: 'How long is it good for? As long as we exist.'"
that they don't kill you.
Smells like a class action suit to me...
They're voluntarily discontinuing the service, they should be willing to pay the $499 back to those who ask for it.
Reading the Ad offer, and actual ToS from the time this will probably be an uphill battle, consult your local lawyer but likely they'll point out the many ways they can wiggle out of this deal.
It would be a small claims case, so not much to file a case.
However, the reference to something coming in February 2006 implies they've been in business for over 6 years. That suggests that if they're smart, they just refund the $499 to anyone who asks, or offer them double in future service credits. How long would $1000 worth of service credits last?
Well, I read the archived FAQ and TOS and I didn't see any disclaimers. Technically, a company that lists something like a lifetime guarantee or lifetime warranty can get away with only warrantying or guaranteeing the product or service for its market life. Meaning my frying pan with a lifetime warranty is good for what the company deems the lifetime of the frying pan, modified by federal and local laws on what constitutes an acceptable minimum lifetime period. On the other hand, the ad you linked via the Wayback Machine didn't say lifetime, but rather the life of the company. If they've been bought and changed hands they could be considered a new company. Either way, I'd say there certainly seems to be the possibility that they could be legally liable for breach of contract. Just make sure if you decide to take them to small claims court that there's no activity in your own history with their service that violates their TOS and Acceptable Use provisions, because they can use that against you.
Charlie Bucket: But it didn't close forever, it's open right now.
Mrs. Bucket: Ah, yes, well sometimes, when grown ups say "forever," they mean, "a very long time."
When businessmen and politicians say "forever" they mean... remember your children's stories.
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Well, I guess I know to stay away from this company in the future... Total fail.
I have learned this also the hard way. I once bought a Peugeot bicycle with a lifetime warranty for the frame, which duly broke a few years after. I first wrote Peugeot, and they pointed me at their French headquarters. I wrote them, even in French, and was referred to the bike dealer, where the circle continued. Long story short: I never got anything for my warranty besides the inflated price for the bike and the lesson what a lifetime warranty is *really* worth these days.
I will never again buy something again from Peugeot, but they sure couldn't care less. The government covers their losses anyway.
You know it's time for the next revolution when your rulers' names end with roman numerals.
If there were less regulations on the industry then this company would never be able to do this. Your best bet is to vote for Ron Paul and to hope that in the future we will have a free enough market that companies will honor their contracts without having to screw their customers because of government regulation.
Wrong. If a company does not provide the goods or services that they sold you, in this case, a lifetime account, that's illegal in the US. There aren't even any shady "subject to change" clauses in the original ToS.
If I, as a company, were to sell you a lifetime of free car repair for $5,000 today, and then tomorrow say I was not going to do it anymore, even though I wasn't shutting down, simply because I felt that the service had 'run its course', then that would be illegal. This is no different.
Email them, politely requesting a full refund. They entered into a contract with you to provide service for "as long as they exist." They are attempting to unilaterally modify the terms of the agreement. While companies often try to grant themselves the right to modify a contract at will, courts have found this to be an unreasonable practice. See Douglas v. Talk America - (http://pub.bna.com/eclr/0675424_071807.pdf ) Should the company fail to respond, investigate filing a case in small claims court requesting a full refund plus interest and reasonable expenses. You may run into difficulty if you reside outside the State of California, because you agreed to undertake all legal action in that state when you signed up. That said, you can include the cost of travel in your suit. You'd have to do a bit of research before filing, but I suspect the company would chose to issue a refund instead of dealing with the hassle of a small claims appearance.
class action lawsuit.
Ask for the original amount paid, plus money for your time and hassle setting up a new account and moving everything over to it.
I don't know what to say to the original poster, but I know of a matchmaking site that used to offer a "lifetime" membership. Think about it. How pessimistic are you if you buy a lifetime membership to a matchmaking site?
Proverbs 21:19
Who knew the Mayan were really talking about Joyent all along?
That's a load off my mind anyway.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I don't know how the contract law works in the USA, but I would expect that when one company buys another company any pre-existing contract agreements would still need to be upheld.
I've had these experiences with gyum memberships:
Signed up for guaranteed lifetime rate. Received notice that program was being terminated, and could sign up for limited contrct at different rate. Left for another gym.
Signed up for lifetime guaranteed rate. Gym sold to another company with new signs put up overnight, new company would not honor membership. I have both left for another gym and negotiated a reasonable rate.
Signed up for limited contract at guaranteed rate. Gym closed, re-opened under new ownership, new ownership would not honor membership. Mostly left for another gym.
Signed up for a lifetime guranteed rate, informed my contract was cancelled when the card used for payment expired and gym did not notify me my payments were not being made. Required to pay past due balance with penalties, resign for new higher rate. Ignored new rate, paid past due and refused penalties, left for another gym.
Most recently, signed up for lifetime guaranteed rate, suspended membership, notified that it was cancelled for non use. Required to resign with initiaition fee, higher rate, different terms. Refused, kept original contract and pointed to the paragraph where it was lifetime, no disclaimer for non use. Contract reinstated with dirty looks from the manager for a year until he got an offer he could not refuse.
I doubt you'll get satisfaction, but they have several ways to legally avoid this. I would try to negotiate something like a minimal yearly fee, and when they offer a contract, ask them how this one is any more binding than the last one... And it is highly likely that they are doing this because they are losing money on those lifetime deals. The worst-case resolution is for them to go out of business, and leave you with not even your old data.
Sucks to be a realist.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
They do over here too, except this particular offer explicitly defined lifetime as "as long as we exist". Therefore that becomes part of the contract terms.
They are now offering a refund or 5 years of hosting. I'll probably take it and move on.
It's not uncommon for this to happen and apparently, it's legal.
A fitness centre near here sold "lifetime memberships" and after 5 years, cancelled them. They duly got taken to court and the judge ruled in favour of the fitness centre. You might possibly be able to argue that if the supplier had known at the time of selling these "lifetime" products that they would withdraw them after a short time, there was a fraud, or mis-seling, or false advertising - but it would be difficult to prove and probably not the case, anyway.
This is just another phrase that changes its meaning where money and profit are involved. Just like "unlimited" (broadband), "free speech" and "our customers are important to us".
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
For example, in Texas they are definitely allowed, though not required.
I am sure I will get a lot of flack just because how my subject line reads, but, looking at the track record of oline services, it is never a good idea to buy into any kind of cloud/web service, by paying your hard earned cash. I have been bitten by the now-defunct sunrocket.com VoIP service, which was supposed to cost me $200 for 2 years and after my 7th month they went belly up with no recourse for me to recoup my money. So I paid $200 for 7 months of VoIP service at the time. And there were much cheaper alternatives available when I got into this situation. The original poster is in a better position than I was, because he has an entity to sue and get some of their money back. How much is a question to be answered by small claims courts of California, but still, it is better than nothing. And this is exactly the reason why I refuse to pay for any service which is running on the goodwill of a person or few people, residing on the cloud. It is very easy for these outfits to disband themselves and ride into sunset with your money. $10 per year for a simple service may not be much but in principle, if I am making a contract to earn that money, I want to see the same from any service provider, to whom I will hand out any tangible object to acquire their service. And last but not the least, some half-baked, hare-brained ideas of 20-something year olds without much business understanding (which this particular case definitely sounded like one) is never a good idea to buy into, at any capacity, paid or not. I will be happy to give some of my screen real estate to ads, if the service is good enough to warrant some use from me. At least, when they disappear, I don't have to deal with financial losses. And to the original poster : What were you thinking when you aere shelling ot half a grand from your already non-existent funds, to sign up for such an ephemeral service ? Really, I don't see the value in the premise. I mean 2 months after they take your $500, they could have disappeared and you could have nothing to show for that loss. And I love the TechCrunch'es take "It's not about the money". To the people who did not lose money on a deal, it is never about the money. But for people like me, regardless how much money I make, I am pissed off if someone walks away with my $500 or even much less. And yes it *IS* about the money. Things like this, make my blood boil. Thanks for reading my rant, if you lasted this long.
__________
The more I know people, the more I love animals
>>>The judge ruled in favour of the fitness centre.
If you would like to speak to the judge, you can find him at the fitness center every Friday night, using his free gold pass.
This seems like a scam to me. The reason you pay the outrageously high "life" prices of ~$1000 is because over the longterm (say: 15 years) it's cheaper than the annual rate (~$100). It's a bargain plus your loyalty is being rewarded.
For companies to discontinue the membership means they actually charged MORE per year than the annual rate. If I did that I'd be called a scam artist like Mr. Charles Ponzi, but if corporations do it then it's somehow okay.
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
This is the full ToS from TextDrive from when this offer was available:
TextDrive Terms of Service
The following terms and conditions (these “Terms”) govern the provision by TEXTDRIVE, INC. (“Company”) of the services and/or products (referred collectively herein as “Services and Products”) described on the Server Order Form, the Service Level Agreement and Service Exhibit attached hereto (collectively the “Service Descriptions”) and defined in any of the Company’s product support listing, to the customer (“Customer”) identified on the Service Descriptions. The Service Descriptions, these Terms and the attachments and any addenda hereto, executed with respect to the Services and Products, are referred to herein, collectively, as this “Agreement.”
Our Hosting Services
Maximum Hard Disk Space. Customer will be provided with the amount of disk space stated in either their dedicated quote or corresponding plan from http://textdrive.com/plans/. Disk space and usage are monitored by TextDrive, Inc., when possible quotas are soft and responsible overages should not impair Customer’s ability to access said disk space. Customers are responsible for purchasing additional disk space beyond that detailed in their “Plan” or to remove files in order to bring their usage with their Plans’s limit.
Jurisdiction and Jurisdictional Disputes. TextDrive Inc is a California corporation. The parties recognize that TextDrive, Inc is under the legal jurisdiction of the State of California, and US federal law. The parties expressly recognize that, where TextDrive, Inc. is acting solely as Customer’s Host, TextDrive, Inc. is not engaged in, and is not actively soliciting, interstate or international commerce for said Customer. Where TextDrive, Inc. is a named party to any type of dispute or litigation involving any acts by Customer that affect out-of-state persons or entities, Customer agrees that it shall indemnify, hold TextDrive Inc. harmless, defend TextDrive, Inc. and challenge the jurisdiction of out of state authorities over TextDrive, Inc.
Storage, Backups and Internet Link. TextDrive Inc. shall store Customer’s Web Sites and Email messages on TextDrive Inc’s servers. The parties expressly recognize that Internet servers and links are susceptible to crashes and down time. TextDrive, Inc. warrants that it shall maintain a consistent link with the Internet, but TextDrive, Inc. cannot and does not warrant that it shall maintain a continuous and uninterrupted link. However, TextDrive, Inc does pass through the following Service Level Agreement from it’s Managed Hosting Provider (NextLevel Internet, Inc. of San Diego, California) and that is 100% Power Uptime and 100% Network Uptime. TextDrive Inc. does monitor all services on our servers at minimum of 5-minute intervals.
Bandwidth. TextDrive, Inc agrees that it shall maintain a 100Mbps connection to each server, however, TextDrive, Inc. does not warrant any response rate or download time beyond it’s control, as this is depending on Customer’s and End Users ISP connections.
Maintenance. TextDrive Inc. may, at its own discretion, temporarily suspend all service for the purpose of repair, maintenance or improvement of any of its systems. However, TextDrive, Inc. shall provide prior notice where it is reasonably practicable under the circumstances, and shall restore service as soon as is reasonably practicable. Customer shall not be entitled to any setoff, discount, refund or other credit, in case of any service outage which is beyond TextDrive Inc’s control or which is reasonable in duration.
Security. The parties expressly recognize that it is impossible to maintain flawless security, but TextDrive, Inc. shall take reasonable steps to prevent security breaches in server interactions with Customer and security breaches in TextDrive Inc’s server interaction with resource
Except Steam have already made it publicly known that they have a procedure in place to ensure you don't lose access to games in the event that they have to close doors.
I was involved in a similar situation where I had free rentals for life with a purchase of a VCR. They had a pitiful movie selection but it was still a good deal. Eventually, they decided to drop the rental portion of the business and effectively said too bad. A quick lawsuit later I had my full purchase price back in my hands. Not a lawyer but it was about 2 hour total to file in small claims and prove my membership and lifetime certificate.
Bankruptcy lets a company renege on its obligations. If the company goes bankrupt, the bankruptcy court gets to decide whether the company has to make good on the "promise" that you can keep accessing your games. They may very well decide that the company should pay all its money to creditors and not use any money to pay for programmers, servers, or customer service people to give you access to your games. They might decide that the company should do it anyway to avoid losing intangible goodwill value, but they by no means have to.
Never buy lifetime memberships. They are scams -- where do they get the money to keep business ging several years down the road? They haven't invested the money, I assure you. They have spent it.
The business model is to take your money, party rock hard, then go out of business. This was the fraudulent business model of many fitness clubs when they exploded in popularity in the late 70s thru early 80s.
When I see new MMORPGs with monthly pay-to-play offering "lifetime pass" options, I run for the hills, even as suckers sign up, fancying themselves getting a deal.
That just says to me they realize they have a lemon on the way.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Interesting article about this that I saw mentioned the other day (the article was written in May).
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/may/05/business/la-fi-0506-golden-ticket-20120506
Well, in case of going out of business, or shutting down an MMO, the "as long as we exist" clause would kick in. This is a case of the CEO admitting "we would have to upgrade the hardware providing the service, and we don't want to do that". Some lawyers will make a lot of money of it, and the victims will get a $10 off coupon.
I'm aging rapidly, I bought a new game and had no idea if my machine was good for it.
I bought a lifetime TiVo DVR service about 12 years ago and DirecTV STILL honors it on their DirecTV-branded DVRs. If you can see that the lifetime is cheaper than about 2 years worth of service, I'd say it's worth the risk. As it goes, I paid $250 to save $10/month for 12 years.
Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
This is my response, I just sent this back to the CEO.
---- start ----
I am understandably upset by this particular turn of events, since the terms that I signed up for stated that this service would be available for "as long as we exist" http://web.archive.org/web/20060203030930/http://www.textdrive.com/mixedgrill. That's pretty cut and dried as far as I'm concerned.
I'm not usually someone to make waves, but is my single little shared server with 2-3 domains pointed to it (that receive a few hundred hits a month) really impacting your bottom line enough to justify breaching the deal that we agreed to way back in the beginning?? If anything it costs you significantly less to maintain that service for my one account now than it did in 2006.
The goodwill that offers like the Mixed Grill and your excellent service and customer support have earned you have been reciprocated by me (and other Mixed Grill customers) over the years in the glowing reviews that we have given you, increasing your customer base. If the other Mixed Grill users have been anything like me, they have recommended you to friends, coworkers, and business associates. They have probably enjoyed watching your company become the leading company to use Solaris and OpenSolaris technologies and they have probably been in awe of your advances with ZFS (as Strongspace), zones (with Shared Accelerators and now SmartOS), and they have been your biggest fans. I will bet that you have made a lot more money off of the Mixed Grill users than we have cost you. If the experience of Oracle with OpenSolaris has taught you anything, keeping the goodwill of your long-term fans and supporters is the most important resource that you have. Oracle learned the hard way that alienating your die-hard fans for short-term profit will probably hurt you in the long run.
I urge you to rethink this decision, and approach the original Mixed Grill customers as fans and supporters, and let us keep our little Shared Accelerators, or just migrate us to SmartOS instances without charge and let us continue to enjoy the great service that you are known for, all under the spirit of the original agreement.
---- end ----
If only "common" sense was actually that common...
So far the government hasn't tried to do that with Social Security, but private companies do it all the time when they shed pension obligations and retiree health benefits when they're in Chapter 11. This amounts to making the employees and former employees take a retroactive pay cut - the value of those pensions was part of the package they agreed to when they took the job. The companies argue that "we can't meet those obligations and stay in business". Fine then, don't stay in business; liquidate the company to fund the pensions. Keeping companies operating shouldn't be sacrosanct; requiring companies to fulfill their promises to employees SHOULD be.