Slashdot Mirror


Ask Slashdot: Is the Rise of Skeuomorphic User Interfaces a Problem?

An anonymous reader writes "The evolution of user interface design in software is a long one, and has historically tracked the capabilities of computers of the time. Early computers used batch processing which, is mostly unheard of today, and consequently had minimal human interaction. The late 60s saw the introduction of command line interfaces, which remain popular to this day, mostly with technical users. Arguably, what propelled computer use to what it is today is the introduction of the ubiquitous graphical user interface. Although graphical interfaces have evolved, in principle they have remained largely unchanged. The resurgence of Apple saw the rise of skeuomorphic graphical user interfaces, which are now starting to appear on Linux. Are skeuomorphic designs making technology accessible to the masses, or is it simply a case of an unwillingness to innovate and move forward?"

311 comments

  1. Does it matter? by Microlith · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Specifically in the case of Linux, does the presence of skeuomorphic UIs in some applications really matter if the user decides "hey this sucks" and rips it out at the roots and installs something more to their liking?

    I don't think any evidence has been provided that shows such UI designs are better than a well laid out traditional UI, but people will try whatever they can. So long as it isn't rammed down my throat, that's fine.

    1. Re:Does it matter? by Nerdfest · · Score: 1

      The first time I saw the word 'skeuomorphic' used was in the context that Microsoft's 'Metro' interface was the first that was not. While I don't think it's the first, nor do I think it's completely skeuomorphic, it's certainly not a good interface using a mouse and keyboard. Personally, I don't think that an interface being skeuomorphic or not defined how usable it is ... it's just a piece of descriptive information about it.

    2. Re:Does it matter? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ironically, the entire windows 8 modro(?) interface is skeuomophic in that it emulates a phone / tablet interface developed a relatively short time ago, and forgoes functionality and usability in order to maintain the illusion that your 30" monitor is really just a large phone...

      It's called 'Windows' and you can no longer run apps in 'Windows'... What's with that?

    3. Re:Does it matter? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > the entire windows 8 modro(?)

      Metro.

      Having had some experience with people speaking different languages, I'm always amazed at how phonemes and written forms differ. I'm particularly reminded of Gong Fu being pronounced as Kung Fu.

      My language has fewer vogal phonemes than German, for instance.

  2. Obligatory Orwell by Johann+Lau · · Score: 1

    Certain backward areas have advanced, and various devices always in some way connected with warfare and police espionage have developed, but experiment and invention have largely stopped.

    I guess one could/should expand that to "various devices always in some way connected with warfare, police espionage or distracting entertainment".

  3. Re:Shit Editors by dopaz · · Score: 5, Informative

    From the linked Wikipedia article:

    "Portion of iCal, calendaring software from Apple Inc.. Skeumorphs in iCal include leather appearance, stitching and remnants of torn pages."

    Digital skeuomorphs:

    Many music and audio computer programs employ a plugin architecture, and some of the plugins have a skeuomorphic interface to emulate expensive, fragile or obsolete instruments and audio processors. Functional input controls like knobs, buttons, switches and sliders are all careful duplicates of the ones on the original physical device being emulated. Even elements of the original that serve no function, like handles, screws and ventilation holes are graphically reproduced.

    The arguments in favor of skeuomorphic design are that it makes it easier for those familiar with the original device to use the digital emulation, and that it is graphically appealing.

    The arguments against skeuomorphic design are that skeuomorphic interface elements use metaphors that are more difficult to operate and take up more screen space than standard interface elements; that this breaks operating system interface design standards; that skeuomorphic interface elements rarely incorporate numeric input or feedback for accurately setting a value; and that many users may have no experience with the original device being emulated.

    Skeuomorphism is differentiated from path dependence in technology, where functional behavior is maintained when the reasons for its design no longer exist.

    One of the earliest examples of a skeuomorphic interface was IBM Real Things.

  4. No time to read now ... by kgeiger · · Score: 5, Funny

    and I cannot find the little floppy disk icon to save the item. Where'd it go?

    --
    Vision with execution is hallucination.
    1. Re:No time to read now ... by Compaqt · · Score: 1

      I don't know. My vision is a little weak.

      I'm trying to find my magnifying glasses so I can find the magnifying glass icon so I can search for the floppy disk icon.

      --
      I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
    2. Re:No time to read now ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lame lame lame. you nerds are sooooo fucking lame. These are the worst jokes I've ever fucking heard in my life. Jeeeeeeezu

    3. Re:No time to read now ... by __aaeihw9960 · · Score: 1

      Says the young person who took time to read this far down and respond. . . .

    4. Re:No time to read now ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm trying to find my magnifying glasses so I can find the magnifying glass icon

      Try using your binoculars to search for the magnifying glasses so you can locate the floppy disk icon. If that doesn't work, just ask Bob.

      I'll bet she can tell you why the thing you are looking for is so small.

  5. From the Wikipedia Article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    >One of the earliest examples of a skeuomorphic interface was IBM Real Things.

    I know you talk about the resurgence, but please attribute it with the first example - the INNOVATOR.
    I'm tired of hearing how Apple "invent" everything.

    1. Re:From the Wikipedia Article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But they have the patents and the lawyers to prove it!

    2. Re:From the Wikipedia Article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you buy enough lawyers, you can change the past!

  6. skeuwhatzit? by rueger · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Obviously someone just swallowed a thesaurus and burped out "skeuomorphic".

    The linked Wikipedia page describes it thus: "Many music and audio computer programs employ a plugin architecture, and some of the plugins have a skeuomorphic interface to emulate expensive, fragile or obsolete instruments and audio processors. Functional input controls like knobs, buttons, switches and sliders are all careful duplicates of the ones on the original physical device being emulated. Even elements of the original that serve no function, like handles, screws and ventilation holes are graphically reproduced."

    First, I'd argue that most software doesn't emulate physical artifacts - we don't "pull" open file drawers for instance. Second, this doesn't sound like anything that's really about GUI, it's just prettying stuff up - much like the concept of "skins."

    The Apple reference... oh sigh.

    1. Re:skeuwhatzit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Check out these examples from Apple: http://medialoot.com/blog/skeuomorphic-design/

      It's the correct term to use, not burped out of a thesaurus.

    2. Re:skeuwhatzit? by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      Most software doesn't, but there is a lot of software that does. Pro audio tools are the worst for that. Reason was the most annoying instances of it I can recall, making a bunch of inconsistently functioning rackmount units, usually having knobs despite being used in a keyboard and mouse environment.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    3. Re:skeuwhatzit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Acceptable bit.

    4. Re:skeuwhatzit? by iluvcapra · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Hi, I'm a film sound designer and re-recording mixer in my day job. Knobs and analog gauges are much easier for user population to visualize and interpret. You're dealing with people who have decades of training with analogue equipment -- also, IMHO knobs are a superior widget in many cases, because (if they're implemented properly) you can drag the mouse pointer further away from the knob to increase precision.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    5. Re:skeuwhatzit? by tgv · · Score: 1

      Although Reason looks particularly annoying to me (never used it), imitating physical equipment does have a function. Usually, the controls on physical equipment are presented in a logical way, grouping by function, emphasizing important controls, etc. You can call it conventional (in the sense of "based on or in accordance with what is generally done or believed"). If the software mimics (copies, imitates) this, it's because the makers don't have a better idea, so they just copy the old and proven design. This can lead to skeuolositimorphicologition (I made that one up), but it is not so by itself.

      And as the GP points out: a lot of it is beautification (making things look nice). In Logic, you can switch your plugins to a view with just the controls. Now that's functional, but very, very annoying.

    6. Re:skeuwhatzit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "we don't "pull" open file drawers for instance"

      Patent pending - Apple Inc

    7. Re:skeuwhatzit? by theRunicBard · · Score: 1

      My thoughts exactly. This doesn't seem to merit the title of "the next evolution in GUI". It seems to be prettier. I gaped when I saw that image of iCal, but I wouldn't call it "innovation"; it's just turning the slider for "pretty" way higher than anyone else. To answer the original question, I would say "No," skeuomorphic designs aren't making technology accessible, they're just making what we already had more visually aesthetic. Which, I suppose, you could argue makes less tech-saavy people use it more, but I don't know of anything that supports this.

    8. Re:skeuwhatzit? by chrismcb · · Score: 1

      First, I'd argue that most software doesn't emulate physical artifacts - we don't "pull" open file drawers for instance. Second, this doesn't sound like anything that's really about GUI, it's just prettying stuff up - much like the concept of "skins."

      You are right, MOST software doesn't. BUT there is a trend, pushed by Apple, to design UI close to the original device, when possible.

      The Apple reference... oh sigh.

      I'm not sure why you are sighing. This skeumatic stuff is part of Apple's design guides. First time I've ever seen it in a companies design guide.

    9. Re:skeuwhatzit? by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      I don't have a problem with an analog gauge, but all of the reasons for choosing a knob over a fader are gone, especially in an environment without multitouch.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    10. Re:skeuwhatzit? by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      I don't have a blanket problem with imitating physical equipment, but this is the worst possible way of dong so. It imitates the lack of standardization amongst audio equipment manufacturers (so, it's presented in a LESS logical way, meaning that you have to learn the positioning of various controls for each module), Also, the lack of a numerical indication of the knob position, ideally below the know, means that you can't quickly type in the controls as a power user, and you have to spend more time looking at the analog knob instead of just reading the precise setting.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    11. Re:skeuwhatzit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah, GUI rotary knobs are fiddly, cumbersome gimmicks. You click drag and end up running out of screen space or accidentially lift your finger off the mouse button and end up clicking on something else. The mouse is plain cumbersome for this type of work, tab and arrow buttons to the rescue -- what is the point of these silly bitmapped UI's again?

      As for rendering analogue style VU meters... that's not helping either. It'd be simpler if we could just recalibrate the peak meters from 0dbfs to -18. Analogue VU meters make sense when you're recording to tape, on dynamics processors and mix busses. If you're using an RMS meter when recording digitally, you're doing it wrong.

      Emulations of analogue equipment you know and love, except they somehow never sound quite as good, are more difficult to use and therefore take longer to set. Isn't progress great?

    12. Re:skeuwhatzit? by ultrasawblade · · Score: 1

      A bit of this fight happened in the mid to late 80's/early 90's with synthesizers. In the 70's/early 80's, analog synths were common, and were controlled by knobs and sliders.

      Beginning around the time of the famous Yamaha DX7, this is when synthesizers started becoming digital, and sporting buttons, 2 or 3 character LEDs unable to really cope with displaying what was needed, and levels and levels of menus (a really good example of the pinnacle of this trend is the Kawai K4). Great for making things cheap for the manufacturer, terrible if you want to modify your sound in real time.

      The resurgence of the "analog" sound in certain musical genres saw synth interface design sort of swing the way back to all the knobs and buttons in the mid 90's, even though inside you have "virtual analog" DSPs and what not.

      Knobs vs. sliders though, that's a holy war unto itself...

    13. Re:skeuwhatzit? by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Knobs and analog gauges are much easier for user population to visualize and interpret

      Not because they are inherently better but because...

      You're dealing with people who have decades of training with analogue equipment

      Exactly. Once we have people who have decades of training with digital equipment, there will be no point in using skeuomorphic interfaces.

      knobs are a superior widget in many cases, because (if they're implemented properly) you can drag the mouse pointer further away from the knob to increase precision.

      With a text input box you can specify any degree of precision you want.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    14. Re:skeuwhatzit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you've got decades of training in anything, then they aren't marketing to you.

      Well, there *may* be *some* specialized software that's being marketed to you, but face it, pops, they don't care about us old people anymore. If they did, all the shortcut keys would work.

    15. Re:skeuwhatzit? by quacking+duck · · Score: 1

      You did not suffer through the abomination that was the early Quicktime 4 player interface then.

      The actual volume indicator itself did not adjust volume when clicked. Instead, the volume control was a literal on-screen wheel that had you had to click-drag the mouse to rotate. Even with today's touchscreen interfaces that would be annoying, but mousing around with that was bad beyond belief. Later versions restored the volume slider.

      Sometimes holdover visual metaphors are a good idea, other times not. The QT4 player interface, and the hockey puck mouse, are just a couple of reminders that not everything Steve Jobs approved (or thought up himself) was a good idea.

    16. Re:skeuwhatzit? by lahvak · · Score: 1

      With a text input box you can specify any degree of precision you want.

      I am usually a command line and text only interface fanatic, with 20 rxvt windows opened, using dmenu to launch programs, vim for editing, mutt for mail, fvwm configured in such a way that I never have to touch the mouse, and pentadactyl is my favorite firefox plugin. I agree that with text input box (or even better, a command line), I can specify any precision I want, but I would imagine that sound editing involves a lot of experiemntation. I do not have any experience with sound editing, but I do a lot of photo editing in GIMP, and I use sliders all the time. There are a lot of situations where you have to experiemnt with the correct setting. For example, I would drag the opacity slider in the layers dialog around until the image looks approximately right. Then I may use the text input to make final small adjustments. It would be much harder to do this kind of experimenting if you had to type in the new opacity level every time you wanted to change it. I can see that a knob combined with a textbox could be better than a slider with a textbox, because I could do more precise adjustments without switching from mouse to keyboard. One of the reasons I use vim, pentadactyl and have fvwm configured in a special way is so that I do not have to constantly switch from keyboard to mouse. It works the other way, too, when I am using mouse, I would prefer not to have to switch back to keyboard every time I want to make some very fine adjustments.

      --
      AccountKiller
    17. Re:skeuwhatzit? by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      With a text input box you can specify any degree of precision you want.

      Nobody knows what frequency and Q they want on a filter, or the speed of a limiter attack -- they just want to move the mouse left or right until it sounds right, they want to be able to go fast through the settings they know they don't want and zero in on the one they do, and generally they want to do it without their right hand leaving the mouse. The actual number is meaningless, and if a knob doesn't have a text box for entry, nine times out of ten I never miss it...

      Note I started working in the late nineties and my mind has never been significantly poisoned by analogue recording work. Naturally computer people would think a text box is superior, because they're left-brained analytical nuts who compose music with a calculator, graph paper and a d20 /sarcasm

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    18. Re:skeuwhatzit? by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      Knobs do take up less screen real estate. When I build layouts for my Kyma I generally prefer knobs if the parameter is specifically not related to the final gain stage

      Also, a lot of the time the knob on the screen is mirroring a physical knob on a control surface that's chasing the DAW's focus, so you get better hand-eye coordination from a knob.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
  7. Ignorance of the history of technology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    I feel like it's time for a frank discussion about why so many people, who work in the damn field, have such a shockingly inaccurate knowledge of its roots. The late '60s saw the introduction of a fully graphic user interface with live video.

    The mother of all demos.

    Sketchpad, even earlier.

    People weren't stupid, and no, space didn't drive any of the technology related to computers. It's the other way around, technology drove space. But that's another story.

  8. Bad Design by countach · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I have to say I fall on the side of saying that skeuomorphic design is bad. The classic one is the latest iPhone podcast app which looks like an old reel to reel tape recorder. I mean I'm in my mid 40s, and I only saw one of these once when I was a tiny child, and even then it was obsolete.

    As for the leather bound notes and address apps, I've never owned a leather notes folder and I've never owned an address book with the letters down my side. My mum had one when I was a small child, but I haven't thought about such things for ages. As these devices expand into so many countries and new cultures, I'm sure these references are going to seem even more obscure and ridiculous.

    1. Re:Bad Design by linatux · · Score: 1

      Since young'ns don't know what a floppy disk is, the 'Save' icon is lost on them.
      Envelopes for email & phones probably won't be far behind.

      At least magnifying glasses are still reasonably recognisable for when the font gets too small - now get off my lawn!

    2. Re:Bad Design by Darkness404 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think the problem is how do you come up with attractive designs that don't borrow from the physical world. The thing about obsolete things is that they stay as that item in the mind and are often distinctive. Even when they don't stay as that item they still can be used as a concrete representation of an abstract concept, take for instance the floppy disk. Even if you don't know what a floppy disk is, you do know its the symbol for "Save" and I think that would be hard to replace.

      Sure, we could have spartan UIs with no decoration and they'd still be functional, but they'd lack the attractiveness and little touches like Apple's "stitching" on iCal, things that make Apple products what they are. The digital world is filled with abstract concepts that need an easy reference for people to use. Text takes up too much space if its supposed to be readable so a picture is about the only option and it needs to be distinctive and not easily confused with something else.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    3. Re:Bad Design by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think it can go either way. I totally agree with you about the podcast app. However, the problem is not the skeuomorphism per se, it's that the interface loses usability because of it. Instead of a simple nested table view with categories, subcategories, and stations, you have to precisely turn that stupid dial and read the tiny text as it comes into view.

      Skeuomorphism in other interfaces doesn't bother me at all. I kind of like that the calendar looks like a leather calendar. It looks nice, and makes the interface more fun to use, while not taking away any function. All the functions are accessible with standard buttons and displays.

      Like any technique, it can be used both for good and bad.

    4. Re:Bad Design by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      The "young'ns," having never had to deal with floppy drives, are more likely to expect the icon to actually save the document. Instead of the inevitable bad sector error.

    5. Re:Bad Design by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While I agree the new Podcasts app goes a little too far I have two points:

      1. How can an app released within the last 60 days be a "classic" example?
      2. Reel to reel tape is still used widely in music production and broadcasting. Just because you've only seen one in your entire life doesn't mean they aren't still around.

    6. Re:Bad Design by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

      1. How can an app released within the last 60 days be a "classic" example?

      Canonical would have been a better term to use, I think it's what was meant...

      2. Reel to reel tape is still used widely in music production and broadcasting. Just because you've only seen one in your entire life doesn't mean they aren't still around.

      Yes but what is the intersection of the total number of people who own iPhones and music/production broadcasting types who work with tape? I think skeuomorphic designs only really make some sense when the thing they are mimicking is more universal in understanding, otherwise you are just adding a layer of confusion.

      --
      "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    7. Re:Bad Design by An+Ominous+Coward · · Score: 1

      Some minor tweaking and it's an SD card icon, all good.

    8. Re:Bad Design by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      I grew up with floppy disks. IME, they were extremely reliable in the 80s and early and mid 90s. It was rare for them to go bad, unless they'd been mistreated. But towards the end of their reign in the late 90s, they started getting really unreliable. I think this is because they became an afterthought, only included in PCs because of Windows driver disks and inertia, and people weren't using them much, so the drive makers and or the floppy disk makers cut costs, making them very unreliable. Back in the C64 days, those things could really be counted on to save your data, but it wasn't like that when everyone started using the network to transfer files and hard drives had gotten so large than 1.44MB floppies just weren't practical any more for backups or file storage.

    9. Re:Bad Design by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      Some minor tweaking and it's an SD card icon, all good.

      Just as useless to a Mac owner as a stack of punchcards.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
    10. Re:Bad Design by mug+funky · · Score: 1

      the probably got less and less reliable because we kept using those same disks from the 80s :)

      the density increased at some point, too.

      that said, i once spent a frantic and thankfully successful afternoon re-installing the OS on an archaic piece of telecine hardware that came as a block of 30 3.5" disks. every one of them worked in the c. 1991 disk drive.

      the only reason it died in the first place was a power failure while writing to it's internal SCSI disk. you'd think that sort of thing wouldn't corrupt it's filesystem...

    11. Re:Bad Design by Guy+Harris · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think the problem is how do you come up with attractive designs that don't borrow from the physical world.

      As opposed to the problem of coming up with attractive designs that do borrow from the physical world, which is a problem that iCal and Address Book, by virtue of looking like ass in their skeuomorphic versions, don't solve.

    12. Re:Bad Design by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Yes, but it looks better. It gives the UI a consistent design metaphor, something to design around besides the default GUI toolkit. I mean, which looks better: the stolen design metaphor, or the default UI elements?

      Ideally, a creative artist could come up with something that breaks free from the constraints of reality, and transcends traditional UI design to become something great. Until we have such a Neo-Picasso, using physical objects as a design metaphor is better than design dictated by default UI elements.

      Now, if they somehow become more difficult to use because of their metaphor, then that's a true fail. Form must follow function, but in the case of the podcast player, I think they found a good balance.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    13. Re:Bad Design by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you are in your mid 40s and saw a reel to reel recorder as a child, well, it wasn't obsolete then.

    14. Re:Bad Design by epyT-R · · Score: 0

      it's possible to create aesthetic interfaces that don't have gimmicks like 'stitched leather.' I hate that crap.

    15. Re:Bad Design by bmo · · Score: 1

      Since young'ns don't know what a floppy disk is, the 'Save' icon is lost on them.

      Indeed.

      I'm going to make you feel old.

      http://i.imgur.com/Ml8hc.jpg

      --
      BMO

    16. Re:Bad Design by cgenman · · Score: 1

      In this case it seems like the issue isn't necessarily skeuomorphic relevance but the iconicness of the skeuomorphism chosen. Setting up your preferences doesn't need gears to turn, but in this case that older required interface clearly communicates the intended usage. A notepad app that looks like a yellow sticky, in my opinion, triggers certain automatic assumptions about the usage and impermanence of the data. Again, that's useful. On the other side, the Game Center app that looks like a craps table is downright awful: The colors clash with the text, making it harder to read. The mental context is all wrong for an achievement-driven system ( as oppose to a chance-driven system). Or those old websites that made you "tap the front door to enter." In that case, an old metaphor was just wasting user's time.

      Like all things design, within the areas where the old state is iconic and communicates well, skeuomorphic design can help people understand quickly and easily what is going on. Done poorly, it communicates the wrong thing or nothing at all.

    17. Re:Bad Design by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I want to see an icon for opening or saving to removable media that looks like the tape counter on a cassette recorder. Ah yes -- the good old TRS-80 CoCo days: cue up a program on a cassette recorder using the tape counter to find the start, press play, type CLOAD? -- still way better than retyping every time you wanted to use a program. Anyway, anyone seen my lawn? I can't remember where I left it.

    18. Re:Bad Design by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Every Mac except the 11" Air (space constraint) and the Mac Pro (get a real external reader and connect it to your keyboard) have SD card slots.

    19. Re:Bad Design by antifoidulus · · Score: 2

      Do you actually know what a physical radio button is? You can glean from the words that its a button on a radio, but that doesnt give you a whole lot of information. And yet I bet you use the software versions of radio buttons, and call them as such, without batting an eye. Same with the iconic floppy disk, symbols often outlive what they originally represented, just like probably half the words in this post(post? Will the youngins understand that, they have probably never used a physical bulletin board!)

    20. Re:Bad Design by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1

      It's a button like the row on the front of a radio, where you can select one preset radio station by pressing a button. Only one button can be selected at a time.

      How do you tune the radio in your car?

    21. Re:Bad Design by antifoidulus · · Score: 1

      The buttons are no longer "selected" in that only one can be depressed at a time, they are merely interfaces to an embedded system anymore. They havent been the "press one and all the others pop out" for quite some time, and yet people who have never used an actual "radio button" understand the concept completely.

    22. Re:Bad Design by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Setting up your preferences doesn't need gears to turn, but in this case that older required interface clearly communicates the intended usage.

      Err... what is the intuitive connection between gears and preferences? None.

      I know of very few machines which require tuning of the gearing to set config. Usually there are some levers and buttons...

    23. Re:Bad Design by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A stack of punchcards being the icon for 'compile' in Visual Studio...

    24. Re:Bad Design by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      2. Reel to reel tape is still used widely in music production and broadcasting. Just because you've only seen one in your entire life doesn't mean they aren't still around.

      Not really. Used, yes. Widely used, not so much anymore really. It's more of a niche thing nowadays.

    25. Re:Bad Design by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      In going for the cheap joke, I let reality get in the way. Oh well.

      FWIW, if you include iOS devices (which I was also thinking of) the percentages start to look pretty bad.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
    26. Re:Bad Design by deergomoo · · Score: 1

      Not really, there's only two iOS devices if you don't consider each revision a separate product.

    27. Re:Bad Design by petsounds · · Score: 1

      Agreed. The 1.44MB floppies that the '80s-'90s Macintoshes used were pretty sturdy. I threw them around as a kid and never had any read/write issues.

      Those goddamn Zip disks on the other hand....

    28. Re:Bad Design by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I had to buy a stack of 10 x 3.5" floppies in the 00s for doing a firmware upgrade. The 5th floppy I went through finally worked. I talked to other people at the time, and they said that new floppies were really unreliable. The drives became extremely reliable though, they read and wrote old floppies really well.

    29. Re:Bad Design by Tapewolf · · Score: 1

      I have to say I fall on the side of saying that skeuomorphic design is bad. The classic one is the latest iPhone podcast app which looks like an old reel to reel tape recorder. I mean I'm in my mid 40s, and I only saw one of these once when I was a tiny child, and even then it was obsolete.

      Only in the home. They're still used in the better studios, and I think you'll find Otari still sell the MX5050 new.

    30. Re:Bad Design by realityimpaired · · Score: 1

      Three... the iPod, the iPhone, and the iPad.

      But your point stands... SD card is a bad analogy. The floppy save icon used to have an actual meaning, back when computers didn't have hard drives. If you saved a file, it meant putting your work on a floppy, and that's where the icon came from. That most computers these days don't have floppy drives any more isn't really relevant to that history... at this point, it's become a necessity because people have been using/designing/teaching computers for decades with that icon. It'll eventually morph into something more relevant for the time, but for now it needs to stay a floppy, because if they changed it to a flash drive there'd be usability problems for people who were used to the old systems. I expect the next iteration will probably be a cloud with a floppy superimposed, and that this will eventually morph into just a cloud.

    31. Re:Bad Design by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      The article doesn't even make sense, because only Apple (and a brief experiment at IBM) ever used skeumorphic interfaces in the first place. Microsoft never has, and their new Metro/Windows 8-style UI certainly is about as far from skeumophic as you can get, and they've been the most popular UI for 20 years.

      The premise of this article makes no sense. Unless it's talking about the Apple world specifically.

    32. Re:Bad Design by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A picture that represents functionality is more related semiotics. Skeuomorphics is just decoration; pleasing to some, noise to others.

    33. Re:Bad Design by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      What about Bob?

    34. Re:Bad Design by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 2

      What kind of weird-ass alternate universe is Slashdot in where everyone constantly has Microsoft Bob running through their heads at all times? It was in stores for like 6 months, 20 years ago. Get over it already.

      That aside, see my reply to the OTHER poster who inexplicably brought up Microsoft Bob for a less insulting reply.

      But seriously: get over it.

    35. Re:Bad Design by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1

      On the stereo in my van, the selected button has its backlight slightly brighter than the others - although it does also show the memory number, frequency and RDS data on the display on the dashboard.

    36. Re:Bad Design by grubwort · · Score: 1

      And there was me agreeing with GP, not realising that the iPhone is actually geared towards recording studio professionals.

    37. Re:Bad Design by Tapewolf · · Score: 1

      And there was me agreeing with GP, not realising that the iPhone is actually geared towards recording studio professionals.

      Be that as it may, most random programs about bands in the studio always have a clip of the tape machine rolling (because it looks more interesting than someone clicking on 'Render' in Pro Tools or whatever) and why BBC News always seem to dig out their stock footage of a Nagra SNN each time some kind of secret phone call recording is mentioned...

    38. Re:Bad Design by ChatHuant · · Score: 2

      How do you tune the radio in your car?

      The same way everybody does, I assume, or perhaps a little easier since for my set the closed oscillation circuit was tuned to the three standard waves at the Marconi factory, which means I can mostly use the aerial ammeter alone.
       
      All I have to do is adjust the open and closed circuits to resonance, and locate the proper secondary inductance for the maximum aerial current. After doing that a few times it hardly takes me more than a half an hour anymore. Of course, I use the shortcut of turning the coupling handle on the front of the panel set, thereby mechanically placing the primary winding closer to the secondary, or farther away, also making sure that I obtain two or even three points of coupling for the quenched spark transmitter (which can easily be found by watching for the maximum reading on the aerial ammeter). Once the position of the taps for the secondary winding and the plug aerial tuning inductance are located, no further adjustment is required (unless, obviously, some change in the antenna is made).

    39. Re:Bad Design by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1

      Once the position of the taps for the secondary winding and the plug aerial tuning inductance are located, no further adjustment is required (unless, obviously, some change in the antenna is made).

      Aha, an iPhone 4S owner?

    40. Re:Bad Design by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      So says the guy with the username of an obsolete car!

      (BTW, it's one of my favorites ever too.)

    41. Re:Bad Design by toddestan · · Score: 1

      Seriously? The GP claimed that Microsoft has never used skeumorphic interfaces when that is clearly false. We here at slashdot simply can't let something like that stand.

    42. Re:Bad Design by plover · · Score: 1

      Yes but what is the intersection of the total number of people who own iPhones and music/production broadcasting types who work with tape? I think skeuomorphic designs only really make some sense when the thing they are mimicking is more universal in understanding, otherwise you are just adding a layer of confusion.

      The problem is that most technology is now digital. Every action you take on a digital machine does one thing: it changes the values of some memory bits. Recording a song? Stored in bits, and not even on a particular technology. Reading a book? Screen bits are changed. People won't get it if every icon is an identical arrow-pointing-at-a-field-of-1s-and-0s. We have to settle on ways to represent them uniquely.

      History serves for some, such as storing audio seems to have settled upon the reel-to-reel icon. Some aren't based in history, though. Recording in general is a button with a red circle, especially in the context of a Stop button with a square, and a right facing arrow button for Playback.

      These icons have evolved from historical representations to pure symbols, and the symbols are now doing their jobs. It no longer matters who used or uses tape - only the symbol matters now.

      Look at it the other way: take a kid who has grown up only with the O_O icon, and they probably wouldn't even recognize that shape represents magnetic tape reels even if they were looking at a picture of a reel to reel tape deck. To them, the symbol is purely a representation of recorded audio. There is no confusion to them.

      --
      John
  9. Must be a slow news week. by iplayfast · · Score: 3, Funny

    After looking up skeuomorphic and realizing that it meant current designs that reflect the original designs where the current design is cosmetic, and the original was practical I realized that this is a very stupid article.

    Apple is progressively moving towards fewer and fewer button.
    Windows are doing their windows 8 thing.
    Ubuntu was a 1 hour try before giving up on their unity interface.
    Kde is still my favourite. (It's like the Rolls Royce of UI IMHO)
    Gnome is the kid who never get's used but always gets installed.

    What does this have to do with maintaining cosmetic designs I have no idea. I think the guy picked a word out of a hat in order to get a link to postman deliver aps spot on the front page.
    Good job...
     

    1. Re:Must be a slow news week. by chrismcb · · Score: 1

      Apple is progressively moving towards fewer and fewer button.

      While Apple suggests using fewer buttons, they also recommend:

      Consider Adding Physicality and Realism

      Which is basically the definition of "skeumorph"

    2. Re:Must be a slow news week. by martin-boundary · · Score: 1

      Apple is progressively moving towards fewer and fewer button.

      Don't worry! Once they've removed ALL the buttons, they'll introduce cool new skeuomorphic versions of classic vintage MacOS System 4 UI buttons from the last millenium for the discerning hipster customer who likes the pseudo tactile experience of turning their iPhone 12 on (and also off) every once in a while.

    3. Re:Must be a slow news week. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hello? Have you ever seen the abomination that is the iOS calendar program?

    4. Re:Must be a slow news week. by crazyvas · · Score: 1

      Gnome is the kid who never get's used but always gets installed.

      Speaking of metaphors that have been dragged too far....

      (How on earth do you "install a kid" ?!?) :)

  10. rise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I would hardly say there's a "rise". The mail "envelope", the attachment "paperclip", the color "palette", the directory "folder" icon, the clock represented as an "analog dial", the video "movie reel"...

    1. Re:rise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ^--- which have all been around for many many years.

    2. Re:rise? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that's what I was thinking. They've been trying to emulate old-fashioned desktops with GUIs ever since GUIs became available for consumers. That's why they even call them "desktops", and why the main screen in Windows (well, until Metro) is called "your desktop", with items on it going in the "Desktop" folder.

  11. trend towards simplification/less capability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Command lines are vastly more powerful than traditional GUIs, which are in turn more powerful than the new crop of phone/tablet interfaces.

    At each stage, the interface is simplified, but at the cost of power and flexibility. As computers become little more than media consumption devices, the natural tendency is towards extremely simplified forms of user interaction.

    1. Re:trend towards simplification/less capability by brantondaveperson · · Score: 1

      Photoshop isn't so useful on the command line though.

    2. Re:trend towards simplification/less capability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To someone who hasn't spent multiple months or more with it, Photoshop isn't all that useful in the UI, either.

    3. Re:trend towards simplification/less capability by erp_consultant · · Score: 1

      "Command lines are vastly more powerful than traditional GUIs" - sure but how many people can actually use it? I have to keep reminding myself that most people aren't like us. For whatever reason...lack of time, lack of interest, lack of intellect...they just don't care about the intricacies of how the computer works. They simply want to use it to perform some basic tasks like surf the web or write an email or send an instant message. To them it's like a microwave oven.

      Personally I think it's good that computers are now easy enough for just about anyone to use. After all, you shouldn't have to be a mechanic to drive a car. I think back to the days of DOS and there is just no way I could imagine my mom or dad using a computer. Too complex, too abstract, too geeky. But now with a modern Windows or Mac computer tasks become easy and fun. I'd say that's progress.

    4. Re:trend towards simplification/less capability by mark-t · · Score: 1

      "Command lines are vastly more powerful than traditional GUIs" - sure but how many people can actually use it?

      The only thing stopping most people from being able to use a command line is their own perception that command lines are hard to use, and the difficulty that they encounter when they try is largely psychomatic

      In reality, a command line is extremely simple for anybody to learn, with the caveat that a certain degree of literacy is required. Half the battle is just getting to a place psychologically where one genuinely wants to learn it.

      Is it as easy as a GUI? No. But it's not hard. And once accustomed to it, there's no small amount of things that are far easier and faster.

    5. Re:trend towards simplification/less capability by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      True, but the majority of it's real world usage today, making image macros, is well handled by software like imagemagick, which has led to websites that basically provide a command line interface to users

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    6. Re:trend towards simplification/less capability by erp_consultant · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The command line is powerful, I'll give you that. But it's also cryptic as all-get-out to the average person. "ps -eo pid,user,args --sort user". Really? Try explaining that one to Aunt Mildred who just wants to check her pictures on facebook. Maybe she can just go check the "man" pages...that should make it as clear as mud to her. To a non technical person that stuff is absolute gibberish. Seriously - it might as well be written in Mandarin.

      Look - I like using the CLI and I use it a lot. It's fast and powerful. But for the average user you've got to dumb it down for them. Give them a big button in the middle of the screen and they are happy. That's why tablets are so popular.

      CLI expertise gives you geek cred but it will never see mass adoption. The GUI is here to stay. I'm not so sure I like the IOS trend of dumbing things down even further, at the expense of power and usability, but it has clearly been successful.

    7. Re:trend towards simplification/less capability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Command lines are vastly more powerful than traditional GUIs" - sure but how many people can actually use it?

      The only thing stopping most people from being able to use a command line is their own perception that command lines are hard to use, and the difficulty that they encounter when they try is largely psychomatic

      In reality, a command line is extremely simple for anybody to learn, with the caveat that a certain degree of literacy is required. Half the battle is just getting to a place psychologically where one genuinely wants to learn it.

      Is it as easy as a GUI? No. But it's not hard. And once accustomed to it, there's no small amount of things that are far easier and faster.

      There is history to the contrary. When command line was all we know, most people still struggled remembering the commands and functions to operate a word processor like WordPerfect, and had huge helper-stickers attached to their keyboards. This is why GUI was such a runaway hit with most users in the first place.

    8. Re:trend towards simplification/less capability by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      "ps -eo pid,user,args --sort user". Really? Try explaining that one to Aunt Mildred who just wants to check her pictures on facebook.

      If you are checking Facebook pictures by listing processes, you are doing it wrong.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    9. Re:trend towards simplification/less capability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The bulk of what an average (for various definitions, but here's one) user does in the operating system is navigating to, cutting, copying, pasting, deleting files and opening/closing/switching programs, I would make an argument that the classic (pre Win7, ideally 95) Windows GUI (with a tuned Start menu - if you don't lock that down, it's toast, but if you customize it, it's unbeatable [you heard me]) is better than a CLI. I can navigate to and do any of the above functions in less keystrokes than I can in a CLI with the bonus of 'free' context from the UI. For almost anything more in-depth, a CLI begins to shine though. If the user knows the Shift+F10 shortcut (or has the keyboard with this built-in shortcut key), the work needs to be even deeper for a CLI to surpass the GUI. For 'average' OS use, give me the classic Windows GUI every time.

    10. Re:trend towards simplification/less capability by brantondaveperson · · Score: 1

      ....ooookay...

      Except that I don't think that's its majority use. I rather think it's used more for image editing, which is impossible on the command line.

      Point is, the command line is demonstrably not more powerful than GUIs. The command line is more or less a programming language, which fulfills a rather different need to graphical interfaces. We do have a fairly large part of our brains devoted to interpreting images, and it seems a shame to waste it.

      Perhaps this is why devotees of the command-line interface often prefer graphic novels?

      ;-)

    11. Re:trend towards simplification/less capability by westlake · · Score: 1

      The command line is powerful, I'll give you that. But it's also cryptic as all-get-out to the average person. "ps -eo pid,user,args --sort user". Really? Try explaining that one to Aunt Mildred who just wants to check her pictures on facebook.

      Try convincing Aunt Mildred that see can type a line like that correctly. That she can recover from a typo after she hits "Enter."

    12. Re:trend towards simplification/less capability by erp_consultant · · Score: 1

      I was making a joke but the point is that most people don't care about which processes are running. They are there to perform simple tasks...checking Facebook is an example. You know, it's a good thing that many people are ignorant of "ps -ef"...it keeps us all gainfully employed :-)

    13. Re:trend towards simplification/less capability by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      So what is wrong with "firefox http://facebook.com/" ?

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    14. Re:trend towards simplification/less capability by erp_consultant · · Score: 1

      Nothing is wrong with it Alex. Just different strokes for different folks. As I said earlier, I like the CLI and use it a lot but I suspect that you and I are in the minority in that respect. Some people would prefer to point and click rather than type I suppose.

  12. Finally! by tpstigers · · Score: 4, Funny

    I've been waiting years for a chance to use 'skeuomorphic' in a conversation.

    1. Re:Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So, use it already, instead of just referring to it as you did here!

    2. Re:Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BURP!!!!

      Oh, excuse me. =D

    3. Re:Finally! by AchilleTalon · · Score: 1

      Like: I plan to skeuomorph a bit on Facebook this week-end, and you?

      --
      Achille Talon
      Hop!
    4. Re:Finally! by Sigg3.net · · Score: 1

      Also, the Unity interface is gargantuan.

  13. Is this applicable anymore? by Latentius · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This might have been a question to ask perhaps 5-10 years ago, when such things were all the rage (brushed metal, faux glass, reflections, etc.), but it seems that of late, between interfaces like Android (especially Honeycomb and later) or Microsoft's Metro, things have been taking a sharp turn away from skeuomorphism and decidedly towards an unabashedly digital styling.

    1. Re:Is this applicable anymore? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Point taken with Android, but Isn't metro based on the metro billboards one might see in a subway?

    2. Re:Is this applicable anymore? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      but it's not really designed to look like a billboard...

      Yes in the non-apple world skeuomorphism is thankfully fading, actually I believe that metro was designed to be the exact opposite in contrast to Apple..

      Take a look at an ipad, most apps are skeuomorphic.. Notepad app show gfx that makes is look leather bound and tghe pages as lines on them like notebook paper..

      God I hate that...

    3. Re:Is this applicable anymore? by c0lo · · Score: 1

      ...interfaces like Android (especially Honeycomb and later) or Microsoft's Metro, things have been taking a sharp turn away from skeuomorphism and decidedly towards an unabashedly digital styling.

      Agreed. Call me decrepit, but I reached the point I consider paying for some actual styling.

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    4. Re:Is this applicable anymore? by Robert+Zenz · · Score: 1

      Apple wants to manipulate the shine on a button based on the title of a phone...too lazy to search for the article, though. Also wait until Apple will bring such stuff to the desktop, Microsoft will immediately announce that it is easier for users to navigate and use Metro if it looks like a cork board.

      The interface of Android on the other hand, I think Google will not go down that road.

    5. Re:Is this applicable anymore? by chrismcb · · Score: 1
      Apple's IOS user interface guideline recommends

      Consider Adding Physicality and Realism

      So yes it is relevant

    6. Re:Is this applicable anymore? by locofungus · · Score: 1

      Really?

      Animated page turns.

      When I read a book my finger is under the page ready to turn as my eyes reach the bottom of the page.

      I flip the page and continue reading so fast that I don't see the page turn. It doesn't feel as though I take any longer to continue reading when turning the page than I do when I start the next line.

      I had one of the early sony e-books. Now page turns there were slow. I would push the page turn button as I started to read the last line to limit the pause in reading. The kindle is much better but there's still a noticeable break in reading while waiting for the page. The iPad could be instant but instead you have to pause waiting for the page to turn. Particularly frustrating when I'm playing from music where my eyes aren't on the music when I turn the page[1] but when I look up the animation is still playing and I want to see the notes.

      [1] Amusing anecdote - sometimes, when playing from memory, I will turn the page of whatever music is on the piano when I get to the page turns of the piece I'm playing.

      So much effort put in to making page turns look pretty but so little effort put into developing a UI that makes multiple page turns, flicking through a book that we do effortlessly with the real thing, possible.

      Tim.

      --
      God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = -@B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.
    7. Re:Is this applicable anymore? by Ryanrule · · Score: 1

      uh, no

  14. Re:Shit Editors by narcc · · Score: 4, Funny

    If only they included a link to something kind of online encyclopedia to define that unfamiliar term...

    Damn, this computer shit is fucking complicated. Links: How do they work?

  15. Move forward? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "Batch processing" is not mostly unheard of. It still exists as an important component of all modern operating systems. Ever heard of cron jobs or process scheduling? Both of these require you to write code (or rather script, in the case of cron), but it's still a form of input to the OS.

    After batch jobs came CLIs, which are also essential, but for other forms of user interaction where you don't want to go through the firewall that some graphical designer put in the way of you.

    Mouse-and-keyboard-GUIs, such as for desktop computers, are good if you only need to perform the most common actions. The mouse combined with graphics is also an efficient way to deal with 2D representations of the system.

    Touchscreen based computers appear to be good for people that barely ever bother to change the settings of the program they use. While I could never imagine myself in this category, I understand the need and I think that it's an interesting step.

    The best solution is to use the right tool for the job. This could mean that you have a computer with all of these forms of input, or a selection of them that best suit your needs. An example scenario: use a tablet to see the status of your server park, a GUI to perform basic tasks such as restarting servers, a CLI when hardware needs to be fixed and use cronjobs to rotate the logs into a dedicated log server.

    On topic: I have no idea what you mean with skeumorphic GUIs, but either they are a useless fad or they can work side by side to other forms of UIs. Nothing will replace anything.

    1. Re:Move forward? by spauldo · · Score: 1

      "Batch processing" is not mostly unheard of. It still exists as an important component of all modern operating systems.

      I would imagine the percentage of computer users in 1960 who were familiar with batch processing is much higher than the percentage of computer users who are famiiar with it now.

      Touchscreen based computers appear to be good for people that barely ever bother to change the settings of the program they use. While I could never imagine myself in this category, I understand the need and I think that it's an interesting step.

      Touchscreens were, until the advent of the PDA and cell phone, relegated to specialized computing. The ATM at my bank is a perfect example, or the fuel kiosk at Pilot truck stops you can use to print fuel receipts and track your points. They're popular on PDAs and cell phones because small keyboards are difficult to use and pointing devices such as trackballs are slow.

      On topic: I have no idea what you mean with skeumorphic GUIs, but either they are a useless fad or they can work side by side to other forms of UIs. Nothing will replace anything.

      It means a GUI that looks like a real world object. Think of how winamp tries to look like a stereo, or how Windows displays directories as "folders". In some cases (like the folders), it's done to help new users understand concepts like hierarchal data structures. In others (winamp, ical, pretty much any sound effect program, etc.) it's done to look cool*. As far as not replacing anything, there was a while where you had a very hard time finding mp3 playing software that used regular widgets.

      It's becoming a lot more common with cell phones these days.

      * It usually doesn't.

      --
      Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach either, do tech support.
    2. Re:Move forward? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd say in absolute terms, the people doing batch oriented computing is higher than ever. I will say typical cron/at jobs aren't generally what I would think of if calling back to old days of batch computing, but definitely in high performance computing batch is the norm rather than the exception (e.g. anything that makes use of dozens to thousands of computers to run a single job). Has the general computing world expanded for more for interactive than batch?sure, but batch processing is no more obscure now than it was then. It's just that computers were obscure then entirely, and now interactive computing is ubiquitous whilst batch processing has grown at a relatively slower pace compared to the explosion of interactive use.

    3. Re:Move forward? by spauldo · · Score: 1

      Batch computing is still done, sure - no one is denying that. I would imagine that you're right that the absolute amount of batch processing has increased over the years, simply because computing is so much cheaper and ubiquitous. But it is obscure when you consider how many people who use computers actually understand what the term means.

      A large company probably does its billing, mass mailing, and payroll by batch, but smaller companies generally use off the shelf software to accomplish pretty much everything. Scientific simulations and data crunching that once would have run via batch jobs are more often being done interactively - it's easier to change parameters and set up new data that way, and computers have enough power that interactive use is feasible for all but the largest data sets. Computers are simply more powerful and software is more flexible than it was in the days when batch was king. Also, you have to consider that most people using computers are not computer professionals - they're regular workers who just happen to use a computer to do their jobs. I would expect any tech worth his salt to understand the term, but certainly not a secretary, architect, or accountant.

      I would certainly describe batch processing as obscure. Not extinct, certainly, but obscure nonetheless.

      --
      Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach either, do tech support.
  16. Ubuntu by beef623 · · Score: 1

    Have you seen Ubuntu lately? It's basically OSX lite these days so it's not really any big surprise that they're borrowing a few more of Apple's designs.

    1. Re:Ubuntu by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you mean Unity? Unity bears zero resemblance to OSX. It *does* resemble IOS, at least in the sense that it is reducing the amount of power available in the UI in order to make it (cough) easier to use.

      But OSX is an enormously powerful system from GUI to command line to widgetry to backups and update mechanisms. It resembles Unity not at all.

      Unity and Metro are both tipping points in that they are the first OSs on desktops where instead of the new OS hotness increasing user power, they take it away.

      Personally, neither one is of any interest at all. But I'm a geek, and that's just how I roll. I suspect grandma and grandpa are what the marketers are focused on today, not me. Although I *am* a grandpa, lol.

    2. Re:Ubuntu by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But OSX is an enormously powerful system from GUI to command line to widgetry to backups and update mechanisms.

      Yeah, OSX users only have to do two update processes: (A)/Software update... and App Store/Updates. I can see how two separate steps for updates are so much better than the single update-manager under Ubuntu.

    3. Re:Ubuntu by beef623 · · Score: 1

      Yes, a lot of it is Unity, but in general Ubuntu is drifting closer and closer to the Mac side of the house than previous versions, and quite a bit closer than any other linux distro I've used.

      I don't see much resemblance to iOS, but a default install of Ubuntu 12 looks very Mac like. The minimize/maximize/close icons default to the left side of the window (and require jumping through hoops to move them back to the right), the unity launcher looks and behaves very much like the dock and the style of the icons and top menu bar appear very Macish. Also, like you mentioned, there are fewer and fewer customization options available from the UI which is very Apple-like. Oh, and like OP said, the whole skeuomorphic thing.

    4. Re:Ubuntu by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...which have been merged on 10.8/Mountain Lion.

  17. Can be good, but often is not by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    As for the leather bound notes and address apps

    I agree those are annoying. However, there is a difference between skinning and real skeuomorphic design at work here.

    The Mac desktop Calendar app? Sure it looks like leather but in no way does thinking of it like any kind of traditional leather-bound thing you may have known help you figure out how to work with it.

    The iPad Calendar app is better in this regard. Same leather look, only now it looks like two tall facing pages. Because it looks like pages you expect you can "turn" them - and that does work, with a drag. Then you notice as you do this that the bar at the bottom changes, so you realize you can interact with that directly and so on. There the design is really somewhat skeuomorphic in that it's helping use your understanding of how real books work to figure out some of the non-intuitive interface controls (since gestures are always invisible and hard to discover).

    In the end perhaps the only area where skeuomorphic design really adds anything is in leading people to discover these otherwise hard to discover controls in a UI. But it seems like you always have to have some kind of more direct control also or else some people can and will get confused. Skeuomorphic design then seems more like a limited technique than an area that all design will move towards.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Can be good, but often is not by Capsaicin · · Score: 4, Funny

      The Mac desktop Calendar app? Sure it looks like leather but in no way does thinking of it like any kind of traditional leather-bound thing you may have known help you figure out how to work with it.

      Yeah and the most annoying thing is that I can't seem work out how to pick away at the old bits of torn paper with my mouse. Is there some kind of Command-Shift-Option-F23 key combination that I should be pressing? Or do I have to buy a 3rd party razor-blade App?

      --
      Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
    2. Re:Can be good, but often is not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    3. Re:Can be good, but often is not by Capsaicin · · Score: 1

      http://macnix.blogspot.com/2012/05/change-mac-os-108-mountain-lion.html

      It was meant as a joke ... a joke intended to buttress OP's point that this particular skeuomorphic design doesn't actually "help you figure out how to work with it." But even as I was typing I thought "... hmm somebody probably has written a fix for this ..." :)

      Thanks for the link.

      --
      Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
  18. Yes by ubrkl · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Yes it is a problem, and seems to be taking us backward in terms of usability. Apple is the worst for this, imo, their iPhone interface for setting an alarm is abysmal, hard to use with any accuracy, because you're sliding dials around, which have physics attached to them. So instead of being able to type in: 7, 3, 0 on a keypad, you're forced to deal with 3 different dials, pushing up & down until it gets it right. (It also stinks of 'hey, lets use multitouch for EVERYTHING).

    Also, accessibility takes a hit, as you're now dealing with pictures of physical things, and all people are left with are the equivalent of ALT tags on images with image maps.

    1. Re:Yes by blackpaw · · Score: 1

      God yes. I remember when the QuickTimer player changed its volume control from a simple linear slider to a teeny *knob* that you had to rotate with a mouse. It was incredibly painful and easy to get wrong.

      I'm still searching for a VOIP app that doesn't try to mimic a cell phone. I guess I should be grateful they don't try and use a rotary dial interface.

    2. Re:Yes by Tom · · Score: 2

      Contrary to what you assume, Apple did actually do usability studies on precisely this feature.

      Their result was that yes, it is less precise and takes slightly longer, but it is more fun and users preferred it. That's why they went with it.

      As for accuracy - how important is it really that your alarm goes off at 7:30 and not at 7:29 ?

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    3. Re:Yes by Robert+Zenz · · Score: 2

      Their result was that yes, it is less precise and takes slightly longer, but it is more fun and the average user preferred it. That's why they went with it.

      FTFY

    4. Re:Yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How important is it really that your alarm goes off at 7:00 and not at 7:59?

    5. Re:Yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You've used a real alarm clock before, right? The UI on the iPhone alarm clock is infinitely better than that.

    6. Re:Yes by Dave+Emami · · Score: 1

      God yes. I remember when the QuickTimer player changed its volume control from a simple linear slider to a teeny *knob* that you had to rotate with a mouse. It was incredibly painful and easy to get wrong.

      Beat me to it. It was one of the major items in the Interface Hall of Shame, though I can't find that page anymore.

      I'm still searching for a VOIP app that doesn't try to mimic a cell phone. I guess I should be grateful they don't try and use a rotary dial interface.

      Could be worse. You might have to talk into the mic and say "hello, central, get me Murray Hill 5-9975." :)

      --

      "The Greens lynched a hacker in Chicago. Last month, but I think the body's still hanging from the old Water Tower."
    7. Re:Yes by JPLemme · · Score: 2

      I found it! (And I've looked a couple of other times in the past to no avail.) I did a GIS for "IBM RealCD", thinking to post a link to the picture-less archive.org copy and a separate link to some GIS results of the interface, and the RealCD pictures were from a heretofore unknown mirror of the site. (Way back in the day, I used to have this site bookmarked; I was bummed when the domain lapsed.) But enough about my google-fu...

      http://hallofshame.gp.co.at/index.htm

      Some relevant pages: (The rest of the site is excellent, too.)

      http://hallofshame.gp.co.at/readplease.htm
      http://hallofshame.gp.co.at/phone.htm
      http://hallofshame.gp.co.at/realcd.htm
      http://hallofshame.gp.co.at/qtime.htm

    8. Re:Yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm still searching for a VOIP app that doesn't try to mimic a cell phone. I guess I should be grateful they don't try and use a rotary dial interface.

      Could be worse. You might have to talk into the mic and say "hello, central, get me Murray Hill 5-9975." :)

      I think you just described SIRI...

    9. Re:Yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As for accuracy - how important is it really that your alarm goes off at 7:30 and not at 7:29 ?

      I have OCD you insensitive clod!

    10. Re:Yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I dont want to have the keyboard take over the screen, the dials get me to the numbers faster, and with less interruption

    11. Re:Yes by ubrkl · · Score: 1

      Yes, accuracy is something I'm not too worried about with the minute resolution of the clock, the same doesn't apply to hour, or using the same UI control for AM/PM, which means you now have 3 datasets applied to the same UI pattern, 1-12, 1-59, AM-PM ... I really like their keyboard (it does it's job very effectively), don't like the time picker.

      Also, for something as utilitarian as an alarm clock interface, (something I may want to change while half asleep), I would sacrifice any 'fun' aspects of setting the alarm for a predictable interface. Inaccurate & slower for me is going backwards in usability.

    12. Re:Yes by Crypto+Gnome · · Score: 1

      Their result was that yes, it is less precise and takes slightly longer, but it is more fun and the average user preferred it. That's why they went with it.

      FTFY

      Mod Parent Up!

      UI Development to tickle the fancies of Joe "Dumber-and-Dumber" Average Citizen will probably rake in bags of money until your SHIT-FOR-BRAINS interface frustrates too many people and they drop your products for the toxic bullshit they have become.

      Here's a clue for EVERYONE developing User Interfaces.

      Not all of your users are drooling morons, some of us NEED technically exact and specific interface elements. How about a SETTINGS binary-choice element for "Joe Average" vs "Multiple Buttons on a Mouse Does Not Scare me" ... it doesn't have to be "I code brainfuck in my sleep" but seriously many UI elements these dys are *frustratingly* impossible to use despite all their cute-fluffy-ness.

      Developers should remember that not all of their users are prepubescent girls foaming over Justin(e) Beiber.

      --
      Visit CryptoGnome in his home.
    13. Re:Yes by blackpaw · · Score: 1

      Thank god all the IBM Real* stuff died a merciful death. Let us pray it never reincarnates.

    14. Re:Yes by Tom · · Score: 1

      I work in IT Security, and I've done some work on the edge towards usability. Actually, I've given a keynote speech earlier this year on the topic.

      The geek arrogance of considering average users "dumber-and-dumber" is the biggest cause of security issues today. And I would not be surprised if the same were true for other areas of computing.

      It's arrogance, plain and simple. Human beings are not so different that they really need totally different designs. And good design does take power-users into account, btw. - that's why some stereos have a cover over the switches that most users will rarely touch, for example.

      That early Apple mice used only one button was not for simplification, but because the interface paradigm assumed that keys would be used as modifiers, for example. Just because you disagree with a way of doing things, mostly because you are used to the other one, doesn't mean it is bad. And just for the record: I can't fathom how to use a computer with a mouse with less than 3 buttons.

      The one thing you can throw at Apple and have it stick is that in many things they only allow one way of doing things. Especially if you come from Linux, there is a massive lack of configurability. Then again, if you read todays articles, that precisely is one reason the Linux desktop never made it. See, if someone needs help with their Mac, I can sit down and go to work. On many Linux machines I first had to understand which WM on which distribution they use and what they put where.

      One of the most important aspects of UI design is consistency. And it applies to average as well as power users. For the average user it means menu options don't shift around all the time, for the power user it means the same keyboard shortcut has the same meaning across different programs.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    15. Re:Yes by Robert+Zenz · · Score: 1

      I work in IT Security, and I've done some work on the edge towards usability. Actually, I've given a keynote speech earlier this year on the topic.

      The geek arrogance of considering average users "dumber-and-dumber" is the biggest cause of security issues today. And I would not be surprised if the same were true for other areas of computing.

      I'd love to disagree with you on this, and I think that you have expertise in this area. The problem is what we're seeing with iOS, Android and Windows 8 with addition to other areas, namely Gnome3 and Unity. Disclaimer first, I use Mate with Sawfish, my desktop is cluttered with conky and terminals, disclaimer ends. It feels like UIs are getting dumber and dumber...and so they reach bigger masses. Maybe it's not the average user which gets dumber, maybe its the average.

      It's arrogance, plain and simple. Human beings are not so different that they really need totally different designs. And good design does take power-users into account, btw. - that's why some stereos have a cover over the switches that most users will rarely touch, for example.

      That's great...where is that covered panel in Android? Gnome3? iOS? Windows 8? Or an example: Make the clock in the bottom bar of Android display the date and the seconds.

      That early Apple mice used only one button was not for simplification, but because the interface paradigm assumed that keys would be used as modifiers, for example. Just because you disagree with a way of doing things, mostly because you are used to the other one, doesn't mean it is bad. And just for the record: I can't fathom how to use a computer with a mouse with less than 3 buttons.

      Yes, I agree.

      The one thing you can throw at Apple and have it stick is that in many things they only allow one way of doing things. Especially if you come from Linux, there is a massive lack of configurability. Then again, if you read todays articles, that precisely is one reason the Linux desktop never made it. See, if someone needs help with their Mac, I can sit down and go to work. On many Linux machines I first had to understand which WM on which distribution they use and what they put where.

      I had a talk with a colleague the other day about how I consider that the art of configuring a PC and the system to the way it totally works perfectly for you, is a lost art. People expect PCs "just to work", switch on, go, don't question or configure anything. It's like driving in a car with fixed seat and steering-wheel position. You can do it, but it's not comfortable. Yeah, sure, that example lacks a lot of depth compared to PCs, but I hope you get my drift.

      One of the most important aspects of UI design is consistency. And it applies to average as well as power users. For the average user it means menu options don't shift around all the time, for the power user it means the same keyboard shortcut has the same meaning across different programs.

      True.

    16. Re:Yes by Tom · · Score: 1

      It feels like UIs are getting dumber and dumber...

      I believe strongly that "dumb" is the wrong word. Am I a "dumb" driver because I don't want to play around with the engine for ten minutes every time I want it to start up, and prefer to have an ignition key that does whatever towards the end result I desire?

      Usability is goal-driven - if your goal is to tinker with the OS and write device drivers, your requirements are different than for the other guy, who wants to watch videos and play games.

      However, there are also common tasks. Both you and your grandmother are surfing the web and using e-mail. You probably use more functionality of the browser than she does, but there are common functionalities that you both use. I'm sure you enjoy that you can just click on a link, compared to, say, having to navigate to it with keyboard combinations and then manually typing a 7-digit code just because. That might sound ridiculous, but a lot of the early computer "things" are in that area of the ridiculous if you think about it from today's perspective. For example, LOAD "*",8,1 sounds as ridiculous to us today as hunting through three layers of submenus in the start menu sounds to any user of Quicksilver or Alfred.

      where is that covered panel in Android? Gnome3? iOS? Windows 8?

      Many versions of windows have had "advanced settings" buttons. Let's ignore for the moment that the distribution of things between basic and advanced settings seems random at best.
      OS X and most Linux distributions have features hidden from the GUI that you can tweak with either special software (say, Onyx) or through commandline or text file (.plist, /etc/*, ...) editing.

      It's like driving in a car with fixed seat and steering-wheel position.

      No, it isn't. That is a matter of ergonomics, a totally different area.

      Configuration has at least as much psychological effect as it has usability effects. It's an act of taking possession of the machine. Average users change their desktop background, geeks need to tweak something about the system. I'm not sure where it comes from, because I don't feel that way (I use one of the standard backgrounds on my iMac, for example), but the amount of hostility you get when you disable these options, e.g. in a corporate environment, makes it clear how important psychologically they are.

      If the GUI you work with is well designed, I'm not sure you really need to tweak all that much about it. I'm speaking from personal experience here, having jumped from a heavily, heavily personalized Linux environment to OS X some years back. And by that I mean that I'd patched my WM and maintained my own branch of my favourite text editor, because the upstream was not being updated anymore.

      And yet, here I am, with no desire to write my own text editor or install a different WM or whatever, because the stuff simply works and I can focus on the work I actually want to get done. It's a kind of freedom, maybe you should try it. You can always go back if you don't like it.

      The problem with the Linux world is, to be honest, that all the UIs suck, and suck badly. That's why you have to tweak them. Linux is a second windows - a bunch of nerds copying stuff from all around that they like with no fashion sense. None of it fits together well, so despite being made up of really nice pieces, the sum total is but ugly.
      Linux lacks a Linus on the UI side of things. A strong, respected visionaire who knows his stuff and makes sure the big picture is right.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  19. Re:Shit Editors by SomePgmr · · Score: 1

    Thanks for doing the legwork on that for us. I'd never heard that word before, though all of us have seen them (if usually just in icons).

    I have to say, I think there's a good argument for there being a wide range of acceptable-to-unacceptable, and it depends on the user. Dragging pages into folders and trash cans... that works pretty well for managing a filesystem. Email buttons that look like paper envelopes and pencils to compose... those make sense to me.

    When they get really elaborate and abstract (like that Ubuntu app), I get a little less comfortable. I think it's pretty, and some people probably prefer it, but for me that's a bit too dressed-up and abstract for desktop use.

  20. Hint for future "Ask Slashdot" articles by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Informative

    Avoid unfamiliar terms, even if you link to a page explaining them. As you can see, 90% of the discussion here is about how an unusual word was used where GUI would have served the same purpose, which not only takes away a lot of space from a discussion about the actual question, but also made me skip pretty much all of it because I didn't come here to discuss the pros and cons of showing off ones word stock but whether GUIs are troubling. But now, instead, I wrote this note, which adds about as much to the actual discussion, but might serve you as a reminder to avoid things that take away attention from the actual question you're asking.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:Hint for future "Ask Slashdot" articles by Coriolis · · Score: 1

      The problem is that GUI and SUI are not synonymous, which should be obvious if you read the supplied link. Which i sense you didn't. It was the correct term. An equivalent term would've been "GUIs which mimic the attributes of analogous physical objects", which is unwieldy.

      --
      Rgasuya aata! : I have been coding Perl and cannot tell where my fingers are now!
  21. It's all about user acceptance by DontLickJesus · · Score: 1

    In order for user interfaces to be able to move away from skeuomorphic techniques one has to consider the willingness of the audience. Web design has been a great test bed for this very things. For many years using anything beyond the base set of html controls + date pickers was considered largely pointless, as businesses needed interfaces that took very little training. As the web evolved into a more entertainment oriented place, technologies like DHTML, Flash, and Javascript allowed designers to experiment with things like sliders, switches, and different types of paging. Apple capitalized on this by taking the best new controls created and built them into the iPhone, which worked so well it gave designers a much larger base set to work with.

    In short, introducing stripped down UI's or new controls tend not to succeed when they are forced or simply swapped in because they are "more efficient". They are versioned in for a reason, because people need time to adapt to change.

    As for "useless areas or designs" such as torn edges or leather borders, this is all about aesthetic. It's doesn't take a scientist to understand that people like things to look appealing. In the same manner a gamer loves his graphics to look as realistic as possible, so does any other user who sees imitation materials on their screen. Well designed abstract or purely digital layouts can look very nice, but they do not invoke most people's sense of value and worth. Furthering skeuomorphic techniques allows designers the license to introduce other larger changes (like new controls) with little more cushioning than some UI customization.

    --
    Where genius and insanity become confused true wisdom is found
    1. Re:It's all about user acceptance by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      As for "useless areas or designs" such as torn edges or leather borders, this is all about aesthetic. It's doesn't take a scientist to understand that people like things to look appealing. In the same manner a gamer loves his graphics to look as realistic as possible, so does any other user who sees imitation materials on their screen. Well designed abstract or purely digital layouts can look very nice, but they do not invoke most people's sense of value and worth.

      And they also don't invoke most people's sense of "who's the fucking idiot who decided that making iCal look like a type of calendar that most people these days have never used is more important than having enough fucking contrast between text and background, even in the title bar/toolbar?" The only people who are used to that type of calendar are older people who need the contrast the most.

      (At least in Mountain Lion they apparently realized that the three-pane view in Address Book is actually useful, and that there's nothing usefully "skeuomorphic" about turning the pages in a book by clicking on a fucking bookmark ribbon.)

    2. Re:It's all about user acceptance by DontLickJesus · · Score: 1

      While the contrast issue doesn't have much to do with this topic, the page swipe most certainly does. I can only account this to Apple's attempt to either maintain interfaces across devices (more of which are touch these days), or to further the use of their "Magic Mouse". While I do find this mouse very useful, page swipes like this are not very intuitive to me on a desktop. Clicking on a bookmark ribbon just seems worse. As I mentioned in my previous post, people are already fairly accustomed to calendar controls, not much to improve upon at this point.

      --
      Where genius and insanity become confused true wisdom is found
    3. Re:It's all about user acceptance by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      While the contrast issue doesn't have much to do with this topic, the page swipe most certainly does. I can only account this to Apple's attempt to either maintain interfaces across devices (more of which are touch these days), or to further the use of their "Magic Mouse". While I do find this mouse very useful, page swipes like this are not very intuitive to me on a desktop. Clicking on a bookmark ribbon just seems worse.

      And Address Book doesn't appear to support page swipes on Lion, at least, which was a source of immense irritation when I was first confronted with the Shiny New Lion Address Book - I tried dragging the page, as that was the "obvious" idea, and it didn't work (and neither do two-finger swipes, at least).

    4. Re:It's all about user acceptance by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      As for "useless areas or designs" such as torn edges or leather borders, this is all about aesthetic. It's doesn't take a scientist to understand that people like things to look appealing. In the same manner a gamer loves his graphics to look as realistic as possible, so does any other user who sees imitation materials on their screen.

      So do some users who see imitation materials on their screen. Others think they look appalling rather than appealing.

    5. Re:It's all about user acceptance by DontLickJesus · · Score: 1

      So do some users who see imitation materials on their screen. Others think they look appalling rather than appealing.

      This is true, but remember, those that don't want those styles generally know how to change settings to make them go away. I'm making a blatant assumption here, but those who do not know how to change the settings will generally like the imitation styles as compared to the purely-digital look. This was proven by many new users in many GUI's past. Looking too "technical" scares new users away.

      --
      Where genius and insanity become confused true wisdom is found
    6. Re:It's all about user acceptance by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      This is true, but remember, those that don't want those styles generally know how to change settings to make them go away.

      In this case, it's not a "setting" in the sense of "run defaults write to make it go away", and at least one of the solutions, LionBleacher, appears to have bleached out all the color, including useful color. I don't know whether any other "change the title bar" hacks work better in that regard.

      I'm making a blatant assumption here, but those who do not know how to change the settings will generally like the imitation styles as compared to the purely-digital look. This was proven by many new users in many GUI's past. Looking too "technical" scares new users away.

      The fake leather is new in Lion; have a significant number of new users been afraid of iCal in releases past due to it looking "purely digital" but, now that Lion pretends that either a cow or a nauga died to make the calendar app, new users have no problem with it?

    7. Re:It's all about user acceptance by DontLickJesus · · Score: 1

      The fake leather is new in Lion; have a significant number of new users been afraid of iCal in releases past due to it looking "purely digital" but, now that Lion pretends that either a cow or a nauga died to make the calendar app, new users have no problem with it?

      I fear we're getting too specific from the main topic. The question asks "Is the Rise of Skeuomorphic User Interfaces a Problem?", not "Where did Apple go wrong?". To answer OP's question, I feel it's a tool used both to integrate new users and ease long time users into new paradigms, so I think not.

      --
      Where genius and insanity become confused true wisdom is found
    8. Re:It's all about user acceptance by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      I fear we're getting too specific from the main topic. The question asks "Is the Rise of Skeuomorphic User Interfaces a Problem?", not "Where did Apple go wrong?". To answer OP's question, I feel it's a tool used both to integrate new users and ease long time users into new paradigms, so I think not.

      To answer OP's question, I feel it sometimes is used to fuck up applications (the worst example being Lion's Address Book, whose attempt to emulate a book is an Epic Fail, improved by Mountain Lion bringing back the 3-pane look; iCal didn't skatomorphize the controls, but they did manage to reduce the contrast in the title bar/toolbar, but, hey, "Contrast is the Enemy" appears to have been a bit of a fucking theme in Lion, sigh), so I think that, if not done right, it can be a problem, and there are cases where it was done extremely wrong, such as Address Book, so this isn't just a hypothetical concern.

      So, perhaps, in principle it's not a problem, but if it ends up leading too many designers down the part of the garden path heavily coated with natural fertilizer, well....

      (And I think the fact that most word processors etc. do not emulate a typewriter is a feature, not a bug.)

  22. No Thank You by dodex1k · · Score: 1

    If a "skeuomorphic" GUI is meant to resemble a physical desktop space, then I don't think it's a very good idea. The more a workspace attempts to graphically simulate a real space, the more system resources are wasted. Development time is squandered on tuning appearance rather than performance. I think both technical users and everyday users prefer a program that is simple and functional. Imagine how resource heavy OpenOffice would be if it simulated pen strokes as you typed. Yuck. Users are plenty capable of learning how to use software that don't resemble real world objects.

  23. Apple v. Samsung by nri · · Score: 5, Funny

    Didn't Samsung just do that to Apple ? Made it look familiar, like an iPhone, but underneath its a sh1t load better :-)

    --
    if :w! doesn't work, try :!cvs commit -m""
    1. Re:Apple v. Samsung by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Didn't Samsung just do that to Apple ? Made it look familiar, like an iPhone, but underneath its sh1t

      FTFY

  24. Re:Shit Editors by narcc · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Thanks for doing the legwork on that for us

    Really? All you had to do was click the word; it's linked to the definition.

    It's less work that scanning the comments hoping someone would copy/paste the definition from the page to which that word is linked.

  25. Re:Shit Editors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Thank you for your erudite response. Are there skeumorphic controls for this?

  26. Re:Shit Editors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    define "Link" you arrogant bastard, not everyone knows the latest jargon.

  27. I don't see the issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's just design. There are going to be some instances that work really well and others that are not so great. There will always be people that complain about things that look pretty, preferring to spend their time in front of a command line.

    Skeuomorphic design is just in fashion at the moment. Hardware goes through design fads too. Brushed aluminium, wood grain, gloss white, matte black, bright colours, etc.

    1. Re:I don't see the issue by c0lo · · Score: 1

      I don't see the issue

      It's just design.

      If the use of that design costs (in implementation) the host an arm and a leg (e.g. in terms of CPU and memory), I might have an issue with it. Remember what effect had disabling the Aero UI on Vista? Or switching the desktop to "Classic View" on early XP?

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
  28. Just goes to show... by scdeimos · · Score: 2

    The more they Think Different, the more they think the same.

  29. No Yes Maybe by mveloso · · Score: 1

    We are living in the modern aesthetic, as defined by the Bauhaus et al back in the day.

    There isn't anything inherently wrong with other aesthetics. Form should follow function, but that doesn't mean you can't embellish things a bit.

    I mean, there's no reason to be a Nazi about it.

    Digital stuff is totally plastic - look at something like Bombardier's Guild on the iPhone: it has a ridiculously fun steampunk look. Why not?

    1. Re:No Yes Maybe by c0lo · · Score: 1

      There isn't anything inherently wrong with other aesthetics. Form should follow function, but that doesn't mean you can't embellish things a bit.

      Inherently? No. Pragmatically? Whenever the form affects the cost of the function, some may object (e.g. switching off "Aero" on Vista. Switching to "Classic View" on early XP).

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
  30. Re:Shit Editors by kingturkey · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Links don't appear in the RSS.

  31. Re:Shit Editors by mug+funky · · Score: 4, Insightful

    no, journalists are taught from day 1 to use simple language.

    not for dumbing down, but for brevity - time is money, and if you don't have to reach for a dictionary, you shouldn't.

    including the definition, or simplified part of it relevant to the article would have been appropriate and saved the ire of the /. hordes.

  32. Re:Shit Editors by SomePgmr · · Score: 2

    I don't think it was (and notice the tags). Either way, it was helpful.

  33. Batch processing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hate to break it to you but batch processing lives on strong. Anyone worth his/her salt has written scripts to handle stuff. Take a look at Debian for example; the whole build system is a one gigantic batch processing tool that takes the submitted code packages, builds them of reach CPU architecture performing multitude of tests and packages them up and distributes the packages to repositories. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

    Perhaps you meant in the UI design sense "batch processing doesn't exist". It's actually quite the opposite; systems that work without UI are the ultimate expression of working. It always works, it doesn't need an UI. UX is that it just works.

  34. Microsoft BOB by LaughingRadish · · Score: 1

    Why has nobody mentioned the penultimate in skeumorphic design, Microsoft BOB?

    1. Re:Microsoft BOB by hduff · · Score: 1

      Why has nobody mentioned the penultimate in skeumorphic design, Microsoft BOB?

      Some things are best left unsaid, that's why.

      --
      "I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it." : Dogbert
    2. Re:Microsoft BOB by c0lo · · Score: 1

      Why has nobody mentioned the penultimate in skeumorphic design, Microsoft BOB?

      Made me curious: what is the ultimate in skeumorphic design (originated or not from MS)?

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    3. Re:Microsoft BOB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      MAME?

    4. Re:Microsoft BOB by spike+hay · · Score: 1

      Microsoft Bob is about 15 years old or so. I don't think it's quite right to say that it's the penultimate in skeumorphic design since there's been a lot of skeumorphic stuff developed since then.

      --
      If you don't understand any of my sayings, come to me in private and I shall take you in my German mouth.
  35. Re:Shit Editors by deek · · Score: 4, Funny

    I am unfamiliar with this word "Fuck" that you constantly mention. Could you please define it?

  36. Re:Shit Editors by coaxial · · Score: 1

    Links: How do they work?

    Computer scientists? They're fuckin' lyin'.

  37. unwillingness... by l3v1 · · Score: 1

    " Are skeuomorphic designs making technology accessible to the masses, or is it simply a case of an unwillingness to innovate and move forward?""

    Neither. It's a move backwards in every sense of the word (Bob is calling and want you back in the middle ages). And we can thank it to Apple (oh my, just look at their sk.m. UIs lately), since lots of people mimic them just because they are Apple.

    --
    I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
  38. Re:Shit Editors by Cinder6 · · Score: 1

    If only they included a link to something kind of online encyclopedia to define that unfamiliar term...

    Damn, this computer shit is fucking complicated. Links: How do they work?

    Actually, there's a very good reason to define it inline rather than (or in addition to) providing a link: RSS readers. The link doesn't show up in RSS readers (at least not Google reader or my iOS reader), so I had to load the full article, find the (now tiny) link, tap it, and scan the overly wordy Wikipedia article--when all they had to do was add, "(making apps look like real-life things, such as leather)".

    Anyways, no, I don't think it's a problem, so long as the skeuomorphic UI doesn't get in the way of work. With that said, I really don't like the OS X Contacts app. There's an example where skeuomorphic sensibilities get in the way of functionality. On the other hand, Calendar works just fine.

    --
    If you can't convince them, convict them.
  39. Re:Shit Editors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I am unfamiliar with this word "Fuck" that you constantly mention. Could you please define it?

    Please refer to the Linux kernel source code where "fuck" or a variant of "fuck" is frequentkly used.

  40. Re:Shit Editors by williamhb · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The arguments against skeuomorphic design are that skeuomorphic interface elements use metaphors that are more difficult to operate and take up more screen space than standard interface elements; that this breaks operating system interface design standards

    Personally I'd argue that skeuomorphic designs are almost certainly worse for usability, but that might be outweighed in marketing by their attractiveness / emotional connections with the product.

    In UI design, it seems to me that one of the things you're trying to do is communicate relationships between the various controls, the things they manipulate, etc. And you have a two-dimensional non-tangible interface with which to communicate those relationships. (Even with touch, you're not actually "pressing a button" you're tapping on a coloured region of glass.) The trade-offs that optimise communication are almost certainly different than if you have a tangible three dimensional interface (eg, a physical tape recorder, instead of an audio memo app). In a skeuomorphic app, you do not have the physical haptic pliability of the button to your thumb, just a slightly wobbling brown graphic. In a skeuomorphic app, you do not naturally see the item in three dimensions as you pick it up and its orientation to your eye changes on the journey to a comfortable manipulation distance. You just have a flat graphic of a pretend item from a preset angle. The affordances are different, so the optimum design to help the user achieve their goals is probably different.

    The example I'd use is Windows -- over a decade or two it has steadily moved away from previously being skeuomorphic (eg, panels looking like they're in little bevels, buttons looking like square raised things) to something much cleaner. Those bevels etc introduced lines that distracted ("why is my eye drawn to a bevel that does nothing again?") and made an element feel divided from the surrounding controls that they probably wanted to communicated were relevant to it not separated from it.

    The exception however is marketing and the attempt to get a purchaser to emotionally engage with an item (rather than find it easy to use). A picture of a beautiful old tape player is probably more appealing at first glance in the Apple Store than a white background with clearly distinct controls. Likewise a slightly harder to use item might feel as if it can do more even if it can't.

  41. Re:Shit Editors by howlingfrog · · Score: 3, Funny

    If only hyperlinks were identified by a picture of a computer mouse next to a monitor with a stylized mouse cursor hovered over a picture of a linked chain. You could visit the target of the hyperlink by clicking your real mouse on the left button of the picture of the mouse.

    --
    The original Howling Frog is a fictional character and has no UID.
  42. Probably neither by Pikewake · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The only type of software I've seen where this is the norm is music software, especially VST plugins.
    I guess the thought behind this is: "If you emulate the sound of a classic synthesizer, why not emulate the look-and-feel of it as well?"
    Of course it is easier for someone who has actually played the physical instrument to find the correct controls, but I think it's more a question of aesthetics than usability.
    The idea has carried over to instruments and effects that have no physical counterpart: If you have an analogue-sounding synth you'll get knobs and patch cables ( moog style); if it's a FM synth you'll probably see a lot of labled push-buttons (Yamaha DX7) and so on.
    Electronic musicians love their gadgets and now that we don't fiddle with actual knobs and sliders anymore, we still like to be reminded of them in the UI.
    Still, I don't think this represent "an unwillingness to move forward". Maybe part nostalgia and part the fact that these devices looked great and inspired you to play them.

    1. Re:Probably neither by Tapewolf · · Score: 1

      Electronic musicians love their gadgets and now that we don't fiddle with actual knobs and sliders anymore, we still like to be reminded of them in the UI.
      Still, I don't think this represent "an unwillingness to move forward". Maybe part nostalgia and part the fact that these devices looked great and inspired you to play them.

      Personally, nothing irks me more in the musician world than seeing some new synthesizer advertised and then realising it's just a plugin instead of hardware. This is made worse by the fact that the real manufacturers have been using renderings of their kit instead of photos.

    2. Re:Probably neither by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only type of software I've seen where this is the norm is music software, especially VST plugins.
      I guess the thought behind this is: "If you emulate the sound of a classic synthesizer, why not emulate the look-and-feel of it as well?"
      Of course it is easier for someone who has actually played the physical instrument to find the correct controls, but I think it's more a question of aesthetics than usability.
      The idea has carried over to instruments and effects that have no physical counterpart: If you have an analogue-sounding synth you'll get knobs and patch cables ( moog style); if it's a FM synth you'll probably see a lot of labled push-buttons (Yamaha DX7) and so on.
      Electronic musicians love their gadgets and now that we don't fiddle with actual knobs and sliders anymore, we still like to be reminded of them in the UI.
      Still, I don't think this represent "an unwillingness to move forward". Maybe part nostalgia and part the fact that these devices looked great and inspired you to play them.

      Your portrayal of electronic musicians isn't accurate. The reason VST plugins and other "software instruments" have all of the look and feel of the old instruments is that you can plug in your physical old instrument to the digital version and control the digital version through MIDI.

      So, you now have this digitally created sound being controlled by the MIDI capable instrument which is being played live by the musician. They can then record and perform live, and do a great deal more things this way. Sure you'll see some artists out there that aren't great performers and so they just have a laptop on stage and no instrument and are basically performing karaoke to their own songs, but there are a great number of artists out there with their laptops on stage more as a collection of "synth presets" so they don't have to have 20+ different synths they need to carry with them to each show. Now they have 1 laptop and 1 MIDI Keyboard/synth with enough knobs/sliders/wheels to control each digital VST plugin.

      Can an electronic musician use a DAW and the VST to compose the music and forgo recording it live themselves? Absolutely. But they're going to miss out on a great deal of possibilities that way (and a way to set their music apart as sounding less rigid and repetitive)

    3. Re:Probably neither by Pikewake · · Score: 1

      Ok... I probably don't understand what you're getting at here, but:

      First of all: The subset of electronic musicians I was referring to are the ones that can't use the physical machines for some reason (can't afford, not enough room in the home studio, born a few decades too late, the real thing is in pieces after that last gig, etc.).

      With that said: I can't see why anyone would need the UI they use to control or record from an actual, physical instrument the way you describe it to look anyway near the original.

      If you use the actual instrument to control and record through MIDI, what use would a rendered approximation of what you actually have in front of you and at your fingertips be?

      When you play live using any midi controller you hardly look at the screen, and when you do it's for visual feedback that probably would be much clearer if the information came in big glowing green digits instead of minute movements of a rendered knob on a dark wood background.

      I completly agree with your last statement, but I can't see how it applies to how the UI.

      In fact, I cannot come up with a single practical reason for the UI too like like it's physical counterpart, apart form initial familiarity with the controls if you've used the original. The only other reason I can see is the one I stated in my first post: It looks good!

  43. Public Service Videos Present... by zooblethorpe · · Score: 2

    Episode #12:
    Using Proper English

    Everything you needed to know about the word, "Fuck".

    Enjoy!

    --
    "What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
    "A four-foot prune."
    1. Re:Public Service Videos Present... by DeathElk · · Score: 1

      Great sig dude; you owe me a keyboard..

  44. Re:Shit Editors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    define "Link" you arrogant bastard, not everyone knows the latest jargon.

    By "link" I think he means a hypertext reference. I dunno why people can't just keep it simple.

  45. In architecture... by theNAM666 · · Score: 3, Informative

    it's called 'facade' versus 'functionality.'

    The classic counterargument is that Courbusier advocated frill-less (and thus cheaper) "functional" towers, but himself chose to live in a replication of a medieval Italian villa.

    +5 karma to those of you who get the 'Blade Runner' reference.

    1. Re:In architecture... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Courbusier's house in Berlin sucks balls with it's low ceilings, no matter how functional. His chair, on the other hand rocks, even though, I would prefer a laptop stand on it.

    2. Re:In architecture... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The arguement against your classic is that Courbusier advocated functional towers for urban mass housing needs (public housing that the government was only willing to put a limited amount of money into) but was able to and willing to pay for his replication of a villa. Oh and don't forget the small rustic cabin he lived in for the later part of his life.

      So to say that in his professional life he saw a benefit in functionality when constrained by finances but in his personal life accepted facade is not a counterarguement rather it is a faceted willingness to use design.

      As to his funtional towers and urban area designs - I'm not a big fan because they are too sterile. Not enough space/place for community he shoud have been willing to put more thought into community enhancements not just functional housing needs.

  46. Re:Shit Editors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Check the left side of your foreskin. If you don't have a foreskin you'll need the remote.

  47. non-article by Tom · · Score: 2

    Someone desperately wanted to use the word "skeuomorphic" in a /. submission.

    Aside from that, was there any actual content? I didn't notice any.

    --
    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  48. Batch processing is still quite common by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "...used batch processing which, is mostly unheard of today, and consequently..."

    That's simply not true (and there's a comma in the wrong place). Batch processing is widely use, just ask your bank or most large organisations.

    1. Re:Batch processing is still quite common by biodata · · Score: 1

      I would mod this up if I could. Anyone who hasn't heard of batch processing is working on apps of no real importance. Batches are a lot faster than they used to be is all.

      --
      Korma: Good
  49. Re:Shit Editors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    not for dumbing down, but for brevity

    So brevity demands that we write "interfaces-with-all-too cutesy-allusions-to-real-world-objects" in place of "skeuomorphic?" Several times in each article? Especially when anyone one who has been following discussions in technical press about interface changes in OSX since the release of Lion should be familiar with it. I first read it in the Ars Technica review of Lion and wasn't all that upset at learning a new word.

    if you don't have to reach for a dictionary, you shouldn't.

    If you are not (at least figuratively) reaching for a dictionary several times a day chances are your vocabulary is no longer growing exponentially. :(

    Look, this is a summary of an article. It's supposed to be a brief and informative summary giving readers a quick idea of what's going on. You only need to mention the definition once when the term is first introduced, not replace it.
    As for the link to the (very shitty) Wikipedia page, it doesn't even get to Digital skeuomorphs until halfway through, and that entire section is entirely lacking in citations. The page is even flagged as being sub-standard due to lack of citations. If you're going to slam on the guy for asking for a brief, descriptive blurb and tell him to get a dictionary, then maybe you should put up a link that is worth a shit and actually has some kind of decent information about exactly what a "skeuomorphic design" is in relation to the software industry and why we should even give a shit about it.

  50. Now that the rectangle is patented... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...the only option left is to draw the classic telephone silhouette in the icon.

  51. No, they aren't by Hentes · · Score: 1

    Nobody forces you to use those interfaces, but for people new to technology it can help if they can relate certain functions to their real world analogues.

  52. Re:Shit Editors by mwvdlee · · Score: 4, Funny

    So brevity demands that we write "interfaces-with-all-too cutesy-allusions-to-real-world-objects" in place of "skeuomorphic?" Several times in each article?

    No, brevity prefers you write "live-like, or 'skeuomorphic'," once, perhaps with a small definition. Then use "live-like" for the rest of the article.

    Are you writing to make yourself look smart or to help your readers understand?

    If you are not (at least figuratively) reaching for a dictionary several times a day chances are your vocabulary is no longer growing exponentially. :(

    You might want to grab yourself a dictionary and look up the word "exponentially".

    --
    Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
  53. Apple are just repeating old mistakes by biodata · · Score: 2

    We used to do this crap in Windows in the early 90s - notebooks with rules lines and faux punched holes, folders with flaps that opened, old fashioned analogue clocks - and we stopped because it was stupid.

    --
    Korma: Good
    1. Re:Apple are just repeating old mistakes by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 2

      Google's repeating them too. Remember that brilliant concept in Windows 2000 where menu items you didn't use very often would "disappear"? And you'd have to take an extra step to actually see the full goddamned menu? Remember how it was stupid and confusing and it got patched-out of the OS and Office ASAP?

      Oh hey look at the new Folder list in Gmail. Way to resurrect a terrible concept that we all tried and rejected 13 years ago, Google.

    2. Re:Apple are just repeating old mistakes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, it's Microsoft Bob all over again.

  54. Re:Shit Editors by Riddler+Sensei · · Score: 1

    They kind of did. The one link in the summary is to the relevant wikipedia page. A perfunctory glance sort of vindicates them for not trying to shove a somewhat long winded explanation into the summary, instead favoring to link to an outside definition.

  55. Re:Shit Editors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    let me google that for you....

  56. Re:Shit Editors by Riddler+Sensei · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Functional input controls like knobs, buttons, switches and sliders are all careful duplicates of the ones on the original physical device being emulated.

    Ya know, I tend to opt-out of such knobs and manually provide a specific value if given the option. This isn't because of any basic objection to the whole concept, but rather because these knobs and sliders can be so poorly tuned and overly sensitive at times that coaxing the damned thing to land where you want it to can be difficult at times.

    That is, I KNOW I want the value to be 40 but I spend more than several seconds trying to not get it to land on 39 or 41.

  57. Re:Shit Editors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is a story told that rather that in previous centuries 17th~18th, court clerks would instead of writing down the charge of For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge would write f.u.c.k. instead (bit quicker than doing longhand).
            However, thats wrong and if you are of puritanical disposition you should blame 13th century dutch sailors of the introduction of this quaint little word into English. For this word to survive and keep its meaning and use I think this must pain the self-appointed morality police.

  58. Wrong! They're easier to MANIPULATE. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But on a computer, you're a second level away from the actual thing. There's no ACTUAL knob to twist on a computer screen.

    And an example of BADLY doing this skeuomorph are the calendars that are emulating the EXACT rolodex style calendar you can find on executive desks. Including all its weaknesses.

    Can you link to a document on your rolodex calendar? No. So you can't do it on your computer one either.

    eBook readers that "show" a turning page. Why? There's no page. Just go to the next page.

    A podcast player that apes the radio on a Hi-Fi reciever. Therefore you can't go directly to the 8th podcast, you have to skip the first 7, just as if it were real. And it takes 20x the screen real-estate to show this brushed metal and knobbish interface.

    Sometimes the real thing has limitations. And aping the real thing is becoming so close it is aping the limitations too.

    How daft is that?

    1. Re:Wrong! They're easier to MANIPULATE. by arth1 · · Score: 1

      eBook readers that "show" a turning page. Why? There's no page. Just go to the next page.

      (emphasis mine)

      Isn't that rather self-contradicting?

      If you mean there is no spine, then I agree.

      Anyhow, the worst "skeuomorph" I see is the phone/pad "finger drag". There's nothing natural about dragging, and it mimics how you would slide a page or photo on a desk. There's absolutely no need for what's dragged to go through all the intermediate stages, and fully rendered at that -- it's just done to make the non-tech life's more comfortable. A true "skeuomorph" if there ever was one.

  59. Is skeuomorphic what Gnome 3 and Win8 do? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've never seen the word skeuomorphic before now. Is this a new coinage to describe the disasters of Gnome 3, Unity, and Win8?

  60. Honestly by deergomoo · · Score: 2

    I don't think it's too much of an issue from what I've seen. Apple definitely do it the most, but it's in programs like Calendar, Contacts, and Reminders, which perform limited functions and don't require complex user interfaces. Prettying them up a bit doesn't detract from usability. If you were to say, add a traditional paint pallete to Photoshop, that would be a different matter.

  61. Re:Shit Editors by Dimes · · Score: 5, Informative

    Links in the RSS feed are not shown as links. So that if you are reading via google reader. et. al. you don't see it. It wasn't till I came to the site to see comments that it was available.

    dimes

  62. Re:Shit Editors by Dimes · · Score: 1

    Within the context of a news site basing an article around a very esoteric word, it would be good practice to include a brief definition. Especially a site that deactivates hyper links in its rss feed(the wikipedia link to skeuomorphic is only there on the direct site, not rss).

    Just saying.

    But yes, obviously one can google that which one does not know.

    cheers,
    dimes

  63. Re:Shit Editors by martin-boundary · · Score: 1

    "Portion of iCal, calendaring software from Apple Inc.. Skeumorphs in iCal include leather appearance, stitching and remnants of torn pages."

    D'Oh! Couldn't they just say it's a reboot of the Leather Godesses Of Phobos? Mmmmh, .... Phobos ....

  64. Re:Shit Editors by arikol · · Score: 2

    Sure, that can be good too.

    But someone who has a lot of experience working with a specific model of doodad (let's say an audio compressor) can look at a skeumorphic version on-screen and INSTANTLY see what is going on because the knobs and buttons do more than just setting the values, the knobs also DISPLAY the settings, values, and general state of the system.

    I hate having to try to rotate a knob using a mouse and prefer interaction methods that are designed for the tool I'm using (trackpad, mouse, hardware interface) but sometimes skeumorphism actually has a point.

    Othertimes, such as in Apple's Calendar, not so much...
    Showing a fake desk calendar with selection buttons embedded in the leather, then some sideways scroll buttons, and those sideways scroll buttons trigger a pageturn animation (in/out, not sideways)...

    The problem isn't necessarily the skeumorphism, but rather the mishmash of concepts which results in a confused mess.

  65. It was just a race to the bottom... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The reason floppy disks suddenly became unreliable was because everyone suddenly started looking for the best deals on them. When you're shopping for the lowest cost disk on the market, you can't be surprised to get the lowest-quality disk on the market. Once I realized this, I bought a ten pack of the most expensive floppy disks on the shelf, which were only about double the cost of the cheapest. They were the last package of floppy disks I ever had to buy.

    1. Re:It was just a race to the bottom... by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      People probably started looking for the best deals on them because their data storage needs were growing; hard drive capacities were increasing by leaps and bounds, yet floppy drive capacities remained fixed at 1.44MB for ages. They tried some new formats like 2.88MB, flopticals, Zip disks, etc., but none of them really caught on because they weren't standards; you couldn't expect any computer you used (at work, your friend's computer, etc.) to have a drive capable of reading them. Plus the per-MB price of those alternatives was always even higher than the 1.44MB disks. It wasn't until much later when CD-R prices got cheap enough to finally displace the floppies, and people started using those for their data storage and transport.

  66. Re:Shit Editors by realityimpaired · · Score: 2

    I hate having to try to rotate a knob using a mouse and prefer interaction methods that are designed for the tool I'm using (trackpad, mouse, hardware interface) but sometimes skeumorphism actually has a point.

    If the knob interface is designed properly, though, you don't have to try to turn the knob with your mouse... you can simply mouse over and use the scroll wheel. I've seen it a few times like that.

    But yes, I remember a program years ago that I think was called AudioDeck, where you had to actually click on the little indicator dot on the knob, and turn the mouse in a circle to try to adjust the level, and that was annoying as all out.

  67. Re:Shit Editors by lxs · · Score: 1

    A "Link" is an elf that plays the ocarina.

  68. Hell with that, brightness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why, on the fucking thing, do I have to go to settings, and click on brightness to get the brightness slider. Why can't there just be a damned brightness slider, isntead of a link to the brighness slider.

  69. Re:Shit Editors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's because you're on /.

    You'd never know what that was about in the first place.

  70. Re:Shit Editors by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 2, Funny

    How do you fuck that much in one day without your dick falling off?

  71. Re:Shit Editors by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

    but that might be outweighed in marketing by their attractiveness / emotional connections with the product.

    It might be, if it had that effect and wasn't if it wasn't so cheesy.

    ...marketing...

    That's what this is about. The interface isn't for doing, it's for buying. The device isn't for making, it's for shopping.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  72. Re:Shit Editors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My cock.

  73. Re:Shit Editors by Hatta · · Score: 1

    Personally I'd argue that skeuomorphic designs are almost certainly worse for usability, but that might be outweighed in marketing by their attractiveness / emotional connections with the product.

    Right. There's a reason iTunes isn't shaped like a stereo. We tried that in the 90s and it sucked.

    --
    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  74. Re:Shit Editors by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

    Links don't work in the RSS feed. Which is stupid, but... if you're going to submit a story to Slashdot, you gotta deal with Slashdot's quirks.

    Look, the point of this article is to get everybody talking about whether interfaces mimicking real-world objects are a good idea or a bad idea. Since the first 3-4 most highly moderated posts are all "what the hell does 'skeumorphic' mean?" this article has failed at its purpose.

    That's the point of the people complaining.

    Now the other problem with the question is that the very premise is flawed. Only Apple (and a brief experiment at IBM) ever used skeumorphic UIs in the first place. Microsoft never did, and Metro/Windows 8 is less skeumorphic than anything that's ever been seen before. So... if you like them use Apple products. If not, use products from every other vendor.

  75. Impressive.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I see somebody learned a new word today and wrote some paragraphs using it to impress their peers.

  76. Re:Shit Editors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    no, journalists are taught from day 1 to use simple language

    Really!

    I moved from the UK to Spain. I can speak the language, but not well. I try reading the newspapers here but struggle, as they are full of needless metaphors that just get in the way of the actual content. The TV on the other hand is pretty well dumbed down.

  77. Re:Shit Editors by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 2

    "Would it fucking kill you to define a largely unfamiliar term in the goddamned article summary? "

    He did. It's called a link. Welcome to the Internet.

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  78. Re:Shit Editors by somersault · · Score: 5, Funny

    Might be a woman

    --
    which is totally what she said
  79. Re:Shit Editors by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

    and they know how to capitalize properly and what a sentence fragment is, too!

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  80. Re:Shit Editors by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

    "By "link" I think he means a hypertext reference. I dunno why people can't just keep it simple."

    Can't somebody calm the text down?

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  81. Re:Shit Editors by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

    "I am unfamiliar with this word "Fuck" that you constantly mention. Could you please define it?"

    I think it would be better if someone could provide a link!

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  82. Skeuomorphic = pictographic by redelm · · Score: 1

    (-1 for obscurantism) AFAICS, all GUIs use skeuomorphs to some extent -- pictographs representing menu choices. The "Volume button" looking like a loudspeaker as one example. Some go further than others with "skins" incorporating non-functional decorations.

    I believe (no solid data) icons were introduced and continue to be used because

    they take fewer pixels than equivalent text;

    they look nice in demonstrations by practiced users.

    Interestingly, some GUIs provide text when mousing over their icons, doubtless in response to user complains about the ambiguity of icons.

    Personally, I use batch whenever possible (wget), CLI normally and GUI only when absolutely necessary (graphical content). The later interfaces have serious drawbacks (require attention, no pipelines) along with their vaunted advantages.

    1. Re:Skeuomorphic = pictographic by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      Icons are more compact and more valuable to casual or new users, and significantly shorten the learning curve for software. In return for immediate efficiency gain with beginning users, the trade off is reduced efficiency for advanced users. Whether you are talking about AutoCAD or Photoshop or any other program, users who know the keyboard commands (and shortcuts) are far faster at manipulation of the software.

      But anyone who remembers starting up WordPerfect in the early days (or, say, vi today) will understand how daunting a blank page with no prompts can be to a first time user.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  83. Prominent example by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In the audio are, this is just way too exaggerated, but on the other hand, imagine a price of $349.00 for a tool like this: (nearly full UI... at least the main functionality)

    http://imgur.com/D8PTB

  84. Skeuomorphic = Lazy GUI Design by T.E.D. · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Its no nice they've now come up with a jargon term for brain-dead GUI design.

    I'm not exactly a trained professional GUI designer, but even I know that the computer offers unique user-interface possibilities and challenges that are completely different that what you have with physical objects. If you don't take this into account, but just slavishly copy the physical object, you aren't even bothering to design. I don't think failure to design really merits a special name like this.

    I once worked on a project that involved creating a kiosk-like system for USN destroyers to handle water valve switching within the ship. We had pictures of the old system, which was a kiosk with a subway-like map of the piping drawn on it, with pushbuttons placed in various locations in the drawing to allow opening and closing of the various valves. The obvious issue here is that the operator has to work out in their head what combination of valve states will case the water to flow in the pipes the way they want. It seemed to me to be a great idea that we were compterizing this, because we could give them something better.

    The task of making the GUI was given to one of those guys on our team who is really productive, but doesn't do a lot of actual thinking (I'm actually kinda jealous of folks like that). He of course just drew the same map on the screen, using the same colors, with pushbuttons in the same places made to look as much like the original pushbuttons as possible.

    The waste of the computer's potential in doing it this way actually annoyed me so much, I worked through several lunches to make an alternative. The system I came up with actually drew the network to look like cross-sections of pipe, and would fill in for you which pipes had water flowing through them (based on the condition of all the valves) by showing blue water in the pipe or not. The valves were drawn to look like simple valves, but with indications on them that the were active objects.

    It turns out that (unbeknonst to me) we were in a backchannel political competition with another vendor for our project. When the project engineer saw this design, he got all excited and said "This is the kind of thing that will sell this system." I can't say for sure he was right, but I know we didn't end up losing the project. That isn't why I did it though. I just couldn't stand the idea of sticking our poor users (sailors) with that dumbass interface.

  85. Re:Shit Editors by sl4shd0rk · · Score: 1

    define a largely unfamiliar term

    skeuomorphic: The process of spending more clock cycles skewing morphing wallpapers.

    --
    Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
  86. Re:Shit Editors by mothlos · · Score: 2

    The problem might be that if it was defined it would be fairly obvious that the entire argument is hollow.

    For those who missed the other posts, skeuomorphic designs are those which incorporate anachronistic aspects of other (usually previous) designs. The premise is that user interfaces which incorporate these concepts are 'on the rise' when it is fairly clear that they are an ever-present aspect of user design. The use of typewriter-style keyboards, the filing cabinet metaphor, the 10-key dial pad, the 'window'. Selling people something new has always been difficult, so incorporating aspects of what they already know into their interfaces is one way to reduce the shock for potential customers. Any perception of a 'rise' in this is simply a function of the lowering of restrictions to adding these features and the increased conservative non-technical consumer focus.

    It's an all-too-common tactic to use fancy words to alter the initial perception of an idea allowing it to be accepted more easily. This applies to truely innovative ideas as well as complete bunk. I'd classify this in the latter pile.

  87. Skeuomorphic is good. by guidryp · · Score: 1

    I don't get the problem, it helps immediately understand similar concepts from the real world in the computer space. The whole desktop UI metaphore used in Windows/OSX and many UNIX versions is full of skeuomorphisms.

    I am on Win7 right now:

    Little trashcan icon, for deleting/undeleting files.
    Top Level icon is of a "computer", under it I find my hard drives, which look like pictures of physical HD.
    My files are organized into folders (that look like little file folders)
    The icons for text files are little pieces of paper.

    etc... etc...

    IMO, this is very good way to create a visual UI for a computer to relate concepts to what we already know from the physical world.

    Of course anything can be overdone. When it starts to impair functionality then it has, but I have seen little evidence of that happening anywhere.

  88. Re:Shit Editors by Pope · · Score: 1

    Sentence fragment.

    Sentence fragment.

    Another.

    Good device.

    Will use again later.

    --
    It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
  89. Re:Shit Editors by Phreakiture · · Score: 1

    I wish I had some mod points. This is one of my biggest gripes with Slashdot.

    --
    www.wavefront-av.com
  90. Re:Shit Editors by Pope · · Score: 1

    Now the other problem with the question is that the very premise is flawed. Only Apple (and a brief experiment at IBM) ever used skeumorphic UIs in the first place. Microsoft never did, and Metro/Windows 8 is less skeumorphic than anything that's ever been seen before. So... if you like them use Apple products. If not, use products from every other vendor.

    There are a shit load of skeumorphic Windows programs out there. And how else would you describe Microsoft Bob?

    The biggest problem, IMO, is that Apple had a bunch of programs that were normal, then they went and fucked them up by turning them into skeumorphs. It sucks, it's stupid, and utterly pointless.

    --
    It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
  91. Re:Shit Editors by Phreakiture · · Score: 1

    Ironically, the wording of the article is as far from skeumorphic as humanly possible. Thanks for doing the editors' work and telling us what the fuck we're talking about.

    --
    www.wavefront-av.com
  92. It looks nice by uneek · · Score: 1

    I like that kind of interface design. It looks nice and feels cozy.

  93. Re:Shit Editors by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

    There are a shit load of skeumorphic Windows programs out there.

    Wanna give an example? I don't know of any.

    And how else would you describe Microsoft Bob?

    Bob fits, but it was sold for about 6 months 20 years ago so I don't see it being particularly relevant to the here and now. But yes, I guess if you mention IBM RealX products, it's fair to mention Bob, since they're roughly the same age.

    The biggest problem, IMO, is that Apple had a bunch of programs that were normal, then they went and fucked them up by turning them into skeumorphs. It sucks, it's stupid, and utterly pointless.

    That's why I personally left the platform when OS X came along. Apple had already been going in that direction (with Quicktime Player being the 'vanguard'), but with OS X they dove head first right in it, forget everything they'd spent 15 years learning about spatial computing, and made Macs a lousy clone of Windows. (From my perspective.) Well, if I have a choice of two platforms, neither of which has a spatial UI, but one of which is cheaper and has more software-- I go to the cheaper one.

    If only Apple had been able to add in all the technical underpinnings in OS X without screwing up the UI, I'd probably still be using it.

  94. You Forgot the A Significant Format BEFORE GUI by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

    After the Command Line instruction to execute a program, was a format called the, "Menu Driven" format, it was revolutionary. One didn't have to remember commands, one simply chose an option, and that program would run. You might want to check it out?

    1. Re:You Forgot the A Significant Format BEFORE GUI by fm6 · · Score: 1

      Revolutionary? It was stupid. It took forever to do the simplest things. And although you didn't have to remember commands, you did have to find your way around the command tree.

      Menus appeared not long after the command line — they're trivial to implement — and never caught on in any place where I worked. Simple menus still have their uses, but a complete user interface paradigm? Get real.

  95. Re:Shit Editors by X0563511 · · Score: 1

    There's definitly something to be said about aesthetics too.

    For example, imagine a synthesizer. You could reduce it to a list of checkboxes, radio buttons, sliders, and text boxes. However, working with that would be a chore.

    --
    For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
  96. Re:Shit Editors by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

    I'm sure that moving your finger around and around to turn a virtual knob will end up infringing on someone's "patent".

  97. Re:Shit Editors by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

    Here's your fucking link.

  98. Re:Shit Editors by olau · · Score: 1

    Great post, thanks!

  99. Batch processing is alive and well! by The+Real+Dr.+Video · · Score: 1

    I love this line "Early computers used batch processing which, is mostly unheard of today". Cripes! What do you think happens to all the cheques that poeple still write? They are processed by the big banks in a nightly "batch process" for clearing. Batch-mode processing (as opposed to interactive routines) is still the bread and butter of "real" data processing on the larger systems, such as zSeries mainframes and the smaller iSeries (formerly known as AS/400) midrange systems. I love Slashdot but somebody needs to keep kids with no knowledge of the larger IT world beyond their PCs from posting this kind of disinformation. it's like my other favourite question to ask these kind of "PC kiddies"... What's a mainframe? They invariably say "computers from the 1960s that used tubes and stuff" oblivious to the fact that they just accessed the bank's shiny new 2012 zSeries Mainframe from their iPhone. LOL I feel like the old guy keeping the kids off the grass every time I have to remind people of this stuff.

    --
    Officially a geek since 1984
  100. Re:Shit Editors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I agree with the parent. The link provided wasn't good enough for you? Really? What kind of self-important people are we becoming if it's just too much effort to look up the damn word yourself? You're complaining that a citation for a more in-depth article wasn't given? There was no definition provided for your benefit? Call the waaaaambulance.

    It's not a professional journal publication, it's an extended teaser, a synopsis if you will. On Slashdot.

    Man up! Take 3 seconds and look it up yourself. What a lazy, entitled people we have become. We should have just aborted this latest generation of whiners.

  101. Re:Shit Editors by blackest_k · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There is a term Affordance which is a quality of an object, or an environment, which allows an individual to perform an action. Simply put a button on a screen looks like button so the user is clued in that it is something that can be pressed. It doesn't always work very well even in the real world (e.g. a door which has a handle which suggests you would pull the door towards you when actually it should be pushed).

    for digital examples on this "page" there is a slider which indicates i can move up and down the page and is currently showing the middle of the page. Even the blank box which cues that I can write in here to make this comment.

    skeuomorphic is quite closely related it is intended to provide affordance to make it easier for the user to use.
    The one theme I noticed running through the Wikipedia article was that it tended to be that objects that were skeuomorphic were cheaper imitations of the real thing and the word that springs to mind is tacky cheap imitations. The trouble with some of the digital versions are that they are intended to give the pretence of a more luxurious real world object. It's no real surprise that Apple products are tending to engage in more of this, to differentiate it's products from the more utilitarian windows products.

    If you have three books one leather bound the one a standard paperback and one a paperback printed to have the appearance of a leather cover even though the information is the same, the users perceptions are different. Which is better the leather bound is better made the standard paperback does the job and the third is quite tacky or cheesy. There are a lot of chinese made products which use the third format which is probably why we have the phrase cheap chinese knockoff.

    Utility can be elegant and clean, it can also be particularly ugly or beautiful too. The use of a metaphor can be very good at providing affordance, A bookshelf metaphor is obviously a bookshelf The problem comes when the metaphor too closely follows the original design including it's drawbacks If the visual representation of the book was the spine then titles would be printed side ways and be hard to read, of course you could put the bookshelf on it's side. .. The alternative of book covers facing out isn't that much better if you have more than a dozen books since you then need to scroll the bookcase and your metaphor is broken.

    A much nicer interface is the coverflow which lets you visualise and manipulate faster ideally you could use filtering like a text box to allow you to whizz through to the section you want. There should be other filters though in the case of books you might be looking for C++ or romance novels. Cover flow doesn't seem to have filtering. It also doesn't really have a real world equivalent.

    This is slightly unexpected I initially thought a bookshelf was a good example of a good skeuomorphic design and it isn't. it's a really bad design and cover flow can actually be better if implemented well. The utilitarian design of a listbox of some sort also sucks as it gives equal rank to all the items without a visual cue.

    It seems both extremes are , extreme.

    Slavishly following a real-world metaphor is a problem if you are implementing functionality badly. Rotating knobs are a really bad idea on a computer screen. Especially on a laptop which doesn't have a scroll wheel.
    Rather sadly I've just found that if i run my finger up and down the right side of my Track-pad it acts as a scroll wheel. (ok hands up everybody who just tried it and found yours does the same).

    The Utilitarian approach isn't always the best either, it can lead to an ugly and sometimes inefficient design so that is something to consider. I think Developers have a tendency to ignore the V in MVC. I think Apple is right to consider the appearance of a design especially when the design is used by people for pleasure. Windows tends to have a utilitarian approach, and more recently some bad design keys, that authoritarian corporate ap

  102. Re:Shit Editors by StuartHankins · · Score: 1

    Perhaps you should look up the word yourself; it's quite obvious you have much learning to do and the experience might prove beneficial.

  103. Bloat. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It must be eliminated.

    This just in, real life and computer tools have radically different interfaces; and no, don't tell me that touchscreens are about to change that. Twisting a knob and dragging a finger across a glass pane is NOT the same thing, and never will. Kinect-style motion recognition never will be more than an approximation of the real feeling of things; using that sort of tech to perfectly replicate the feeling of putting a hand on something, feeling an actual physical resistance would be an immense ressource sink hole. If we ever try, we WILL end up in the bottom of the Uncanny Valley of motion control, just like so many CGI animators. That's why I think skeumorphics is an error.

    What must be done is to create a metaphor that is suited to the interface at hand, regardless of how seemingly close the interface is to "the real thing"; that most of the time implies that we must get rid of unnecessay details, of bloat. The best example that comes to my mind is Ableton Live, a digital audio studio. Before Ableton, Digital Audio Workshops (DAWs) tried to imitate the physical layout of an actual studio, with a graphic reproduction of a mixer next to a graphical copy of synths and compressors and etc. It... Well it did work.

    What Ableton did is to completely get rid of all those details that belonged to the physical realm, and start anew to create something that would feel good not for a pair of hand, but to a mouse and a keyboard. And they did it! They created one of the most fluid UI experience available in a modern DAW.

    1. Re:Bloat. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh and BTW,

      Skeumorphics + Linux = yuck.

      I like Linux because it allows me to get as close to the metal (well, the CLI) as I want at any given moment. It's UI interface is as close as the "everything is a string" desing metaphor as it can be. I would absolutely hate having to deal with images instead.

      Super-high level graphical metaphors is a monolithic design thing; Linux doesn't work that way. I mean... The most ideal graphic metaphor these day is probably Apple's, and it was build under the reign of the very strong and design-savvy Jobs. It's a company thing. Linux users, who are often technically savvy, will probably prefer to stay close to the old metaphor that makes them powerful. The developers, on their side, will go with technical rather than graphical beauty.

      And here's the story of how Linux (well, aside of corporate-developed *nix like OSX and Android) will never get more than like 10% market shares in any consumer market.

  104. Re:Shit Editors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Um, it's called "google", mmkay? Do look into it before being such a Stressy Bessy -- we wish you would.

  105. I like this part by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Shows an unwillingness to move on or innovate
    Insisting on keeping things familiar in designs can often slow down innovation.
    Remember, Apple's tagline used to be "Think Different".

    1. Re:I like this part by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Remember, Apple's tagline used to be "Think Different".

      When did they drop the first word?

  106. Re:Shit Editors by X0563511 · · Score: 1

    you can simply mouse over and use the scroll wheel. I've seen it a few times like that.

    Absolutely cannot stand that. I much prefer a click-and-drag - usually up or right (or both...) raise the value while down or left will lower the value.

    Synthesizers are good examples of Skeuomorphic interfaces done right. You usually end up with a horrid ugly unusable pile of controls if you do not go the Skeuomorphic route.

    --
    For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
  107. Re:Shit Editors by jedidiah · · Score: 2

    MIDI is as "skeuomorphic" as you want to be and always has been. Pointing to MIDI isn't really a great example here. It's fundementally a wire protocol that may or may not be attached to an interface that looks remotely recognizable.

    --
    A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
  108. Re:Shit Editors by X0563511 · · Score: 1

    That's funny. I never had heard of the term, and it took me all of 5 seconds of skimming the wiki page to understand what it meant.

    Maybe you have a learning disability?

    --
    For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
  109. Re:Shit Editors by stonecypher · · Score: 1

    It would have taken you less time to google it than to throw that tantrum.

    --
    StoneCypher is Full of BS
  110. Re:Shit Editors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You touched on the key element there; The difference between real usability (quantifiable) and perceived utility (qualitative) (both measurable). Perception drives adoption. If something looks plush or appeals to the user's particular aesthetic choice, then more of those types of users will adopt the product. So certain types of people like the real world look and feel, whereas others like the minimalism of industrial design. Each type of design says something to the user. They reinforce a brand or a theme that the company wants to enforce; comfort or utility, safety or sturdiness, etc. So we shouldn't say "skeuomorphic is crap" or distance ourselves from it purely because it's a distraction or creates usability problems. We need to find a balance where it can be used in a way that creates comfort and usability issues are minimized. In some regards I think Apple does this well. They have a mix of industrial design, minimalism, partnered with real-world details that create comfort for people who aren't fans of minimalism. But the details aren't OVER the top (for the most part). They're subtle and suggestive. At the same time the simplicity of the interfaces keep things usable.

  111. Re:Shit Editors by Yvan256 · · Score: 1
  112. Re:Shit Editors by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

    It would have taken far less time for one author to write a short one-sentence description than for hundreds of readers to go read the first paragraph of the Wikipedia page.

  113. Re:Shit Editors by Eponymous+Hero · · Score: 1

    would it fucking kill you to google it? you're at the computer, ffs.

    --
    insensitive clod overlords obligatory xkcd car analogy russian reversals whoosh pedant fanbois ftfy in 3...2...1..PROFIT
  114. Seek button and bookmark buttons by tepples · · Score: 1

    How do you tune the radio in your car?

    With a rocker switch marked "SEEK". One button linearly searches for a radio station with the next lower frequency; the other the next higher. Some people use the six buttons for bookmarked frequencies that a typical car radio provides, but unlike a computer radio button, they typically don't light up when the current frequency is equal to the bookmark (that is, when pushed).

  115. Re:Shit Editors by geekoid · · Score: 1

    Your complaint is about a poorly implemented Skeumorph.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  116. Re:Shit Editors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I suppose it might be comforting to the person who just spent $700 on software that is meant to digitally emulate the function of a $3000 vintage compressor to have an exact visual representation.

    The problem is that the ergonomic usability is crap.

    What is lacking is a button that switches to a stripped-down, more standardized type interface for quick, accurate input. Then, if you want the visual display you could switch back to it.

  117. Re:Shit Editors by geekoid · · Score: 1

    If you don't already know what the primary term for an article is, I don't want you posting about the item anyways because you have no experience with it.
    Live-like? That's just stupid.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  118. I can't feel my knobs - Doctor, will I be o.k.? by wreakyhavoc · · Score: 1

    I tend to run into this in the realm of audio processing.

    Radial knobs and toggle switches, while pretty, are absolute bollocks with a mouse. I will use a plug-in that has linear sliders or numerical input if it sounds "good enough" rather than deal with the frustration of a pretty interface that slows my work down. It would have to sound amazing for me to bother.

    If a non-audio app has knobs I simply won't use it, no matter what functionality it provides. I'd rather go without. It would be a different story if radial knob peripheral input devices were more standard for computers, but as it stands, keyboard and mouse are dominant.

  119. Re:Shit Editors by BronsCon · · Score: 1

    For the love of christ, let me double-click the knob and manually enter a value, just in case i want some level of precision.

    --
    APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
  120. Re:Shit Editors by mcgrew · · Score: 1

    Would it fucking kill you to define a largely unfamiliar term in the goddamned article summary?

    Have you read the masthead? "News for nerds." You're supposed to be educated and literate. The educated and literate know what to do when faced with an unfamiliar word (and they linked a very good definition for noncompos muggles like you).

    On topic, I think the question posed ("Are skeuomorphic designs making technology accessible to the masses, or is it simply a case of an unwillingness to innovate and move forward?") is a dumb question. The skeuomorphic designs make innovation available to those who know the old tech. It would be harder to innovate without skeuomorphic designs.

  121. Skins by J05H · · Score: 1

    This is an argument for skinnable UIs, modifiable UIs and GUI/CLI cross use.

    Every user has their preferences and we should be able to customize our computers to those preferences. If you want the faux-wood paneling, it's there. If you want some Strong Typing, you should be able to interact with it in bash. It'd be great to be able to type batch commands for Photoshop, even if it was just simple stuff like crop and re-save.

    --
    gigantino.tv - Heavy but weighs nothing.
  122. Re:Shit Editors by The_Wilschon · · Score: 1

    Well, that certainly illustrates the diversity of the word.

    --
    SIGSEGV caught, terminating

    wait... not that kind of sig.
  123. Re:Shit Editors by mattack2 · · Score: 1

    Bob fits, but it was sold for about 6 months 20 years ago so I don't see it being particularly relevant to the here and now. But yes, I guess if you mention IBM RealX products, it's fair to mention Bob, since they're roughly the same age.

    You said "Microsoft never did", and it didn't seem to me like you were exaggerating for effect, so the age of the example to disprove your statement is irrelevant.

  124. Re:Shit Editors by b4dc0d3r · · Score: 2

    You missed the point. If I don't know what it is, I don't know whether I care enough to click to read the definition. Then if you look at the page, the first half of it is completely unrelated to the contextual usage.

    More than half way down they get to the digital part, which is what the summary connotation would be. And then, the digital section starts with

    Many music and audio computer programs employ a plugin architecture, and some of the plugins have a skeuomorphic interface

    WTF does plugin have to do with anything? Worst encyclopedia page I've seen recently, though there are doubtless many worse I have had no reason to click.

    I had to read the wiki page twice to figure out what the point was, and then go back to the summary to understand the point.

    So no, "all you had to do" involved a lot more than just clicking. And the comment with actual information is close enough to the top that it pops out immediately. A lot of readers look to the comments to see if it's something they should care about before clicking. It would have saved me time in this case, certainly.

  125. Re:Shit Editors by b4dc0d3r · · Score: 1

    Aesthetics is not equivalent to functionality. Making workflow harder is not the same as removing unnecessary metaphors for interaction.

    Something you linked to makes sense for someone used to dealing with the physical product, and wanting the same thing in software. It also uses a rather intuitive interface that allows for self-discovery since dials and sliders are natural for anyone who grew up in an analog age.

    The problem comes when the original is no longer familiar. In gp's example, the idea of a piece of paper representing an e-mail is archaic at this point, when few people write letters other than bills, bill payments, and postcards. And pen or pencil has nothing to do with typing an e-mail. A paperless office puts food waste in a trash can, not paper.

    As time goes on, the interface you linked to may only make sense to people who interacted with software designed to mimic devices they never touched. And the aesthetics may interfere with the workflow instead of helping it.

    For my perspective, I think this is a shit design that is too hard to work with because I apparently have to interact with things my clicking to drag a dial around, instead of just entering a value. I think it would be much easier to have a keyboard-friendly interface, with a visual view of the same if you wanted, and you could optionally use that exclusively as well. Hot-keys, shortcuts, and direct entry are my thing, not dials and sliders. But I realize that's only my opinion. Hopefully you will see that aesthetics are not important for functionality unless a user already has that model in mind.

  126. We're here, we're skeuopmorphic, get used to it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, brevity prefers you write "live-like, or 'skeuomorphic'

    Live-like ... live like a band?! What is that supposed to mean? I prefer the actual English word to such nonsense. If you feel your audience is non-technical, sure explain it and then keep on using 'skeuomorphic.' Get used to it, while Apple and other GUI designers persist in this practice you'll be reading it a lot. And after a while even you will find the repeated explanation tiresome.

    You might want to grab yourself a dictionary and look up the word "exponentially".

    I'm pretty sure think I know what it means, mind you I can look a word up at a hundred miles an hour ... are your are going to ask me to look up 'hundred' now, holding a speed camera? Besides there was a time in your life when your vocabulary was literally growing exponentially.

  127. Re:Shit Editors by Waccoon · · Score: 1

    Not to mention that the function of the knob is rarely obvious. Many years ago, it was common to require people to move the mouse in a circular motion to turn a knob. Some software requires you to move the mouse either horizontally or vertically only, though this is obviously easy to learn in a second.

    The worst, which seems to be the norm these days with audio software, is to click and hold on the knob, and the closer the mouse cursor is to the knob, the faster but less accurate the turn is. The further the mouse cursor is, the slower and more accurate it is. However, the angle of the knob rarely follows the angle of the mouse cursor relative to the knob. It's such a pain in the butt. Just trying to explain this to someone takes more time and effort than it's worth. Just use a damn slider! They do use those in the audio industry.

  128. Re:Shit Editors by bingoUV · · Score: 1

    Rather sadly I've just found that if i run my finger up and down the right side of my Track-pad it acts as a scroll wheel

    True. Though kudos to by far the cheapest "laptop" I have ever bought, original Asus EEE PC 701, which had it visually indicated in the right part of the trackpad.
    There should be a way for Asus to be able to financially benefit from this social service :)

    why should users be forced to know file names..

    3 points here :
    1. Search has improved drastically in nearly all popular OSes. We have come to a point where it is less necessary to remember file names (or paths).

    2. In the real world, it is far worse. People misplacing things, especially middle age* and older people, is an extremely common sight.

    3. Same problem as the real world applies : when "placing" something, one strongly and falsely feels that he will never forget where it was placed. Tags do not solve this problem very well. People having the discipline it takes to manually tag will have found many other ways to remember things, including better organization in the first place.

    * In middle age one starts to have too many things to keep track of, for multiple people because most middle aged people have spouses and kids, and of course the mind is not at its sharpest any more.

    --
    Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
  129. Not an either-or by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The real damage is done when one insists upon a single set of controls without giving user or administrator option to set one or the other. You can actually have both by allowing skins to be applied to .

    I still fail to understand why Microsoft did not offer the ribbon as an alternative option to menu control (or vice versa.)

    One of the genius things that Microsoft did was to make WMP skinnable.

    Some of the programs and systems I've loved best had toggles for an advanced or expert mode for those who preferred them.

  130. Re:Shit Editors by X0563511 · · Score: 1

    For my perspective, I think this is a shit design that is too hard to work with because I apparently have to interact with things my clicking to drag a dial around, instead of just entering a value. I think it would be much easier to have a keyboard-friendly interface, with a visual view of the same if you wanted, and you could optionally use that exclusively as well. Hot-keys, shortcuts, and direct entry are my thing, not dials and sliders. But I realize that's only my opinion. Hopefully you will see that aesthetics are not important for functionality unless a user already has that model in mind.

    I get what you're saying, though I think I should have specified that you don't enter absolute values in these kinds of things. Unless you are trying to duplicate the settings on another - in which case you use patch saving/loading.

    You're supposed to use your ears, and tune the settings until you hear what you are looking for. Only a genius savant is going to know they want their oscillators exactly tuned to a particular frequency.

    --
    For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
  131. Re:Shit Editors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Rather sadly I've just found that if i run my finger up and down the right side of my Track-pad it acts as a scroll wheel. (ok hands up everybody who just tried it and found yours does the same)." /kills self

  132. Re:Shit Editors by randyleepublic · · Score: 1

    Why is RSS feed retarded?

    --
    Social Credit would solve everything...
  133. Re:Shit Editors by dave87656 · · Score: 1

    Would if kill you to click on the link? Sheesh!

  134. Re:Shit Editors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't worry, the author of the article has no idea what skeuomorph means either...

    Here are some common examples of skeuomorphs and their original counterparts:

    The computer desktop / a real desktop
    A computer file / a real file
    A computer keyboard / a typewriter
    A mouse pointer / a pointing arrow
    Etc etc.

    Skeuomorphism isn't skin deep, and is an important part of any modern interface including Android's silly flat blue theme from the future.

    Skeuomorphs allow us to transfer our understanding of outdated objects to their modern replacements. It's not strictly necessary to use skeuomorphism, but more often than not the alternative is to force a user to learn arcane, bizarre and unintuitive interfaces like the command line.

  135. Re:Shit Editors by RockDoctor · · Score: 1
    You've given examples, not a definition.

    FYI, one of the less well-known bits of Google's repertoire is the "define:" interface. In this case, searching for "define:skeuomorphic" will answer the original question. The top result is, unsurprisingly, the wikipedia article, which tells us "A skeuomorph /ËskjuËÉ(TM)mÉ"rf/ SKEW-É(TM)-morf, or skeuomorphism (Greek: skeuosâ"vessel or tool, morpheâ"shape),[1] is a derivative object that retains ornamental design cues to a structure that was necessary in the original."

    as for whether it's good or bad ... "meh". It's not as if you have any choice in the software that you use, so shut up and get on with your job, unless part of your job is to answer questions from the designers working on the next generation of your in-house software.

    --
    Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  136. Re:Shit Editors by atomize · · Score: 1

    Would it fucking kill you to define a largely unfamiliar term in the goddamned article summary? Jesus christ. Fuck.

    fer'eal. pretentious assholes.