Slashdot Mirror
Ask Slashdot: Dealing With Disabilities In the Workplace?
mpol writes "The job market can be hard right now, depending on your background and location. Having a disability makes things even more interesting. Seven years ago I suffered from a psychosis, and I was diagnosed with schizophrenia. I have been recovering quite well, and last year I started searching for a paying job. I found one, but it didn't turn out to be the right place, so I'm back at my volunteer job as web developer. My current workplace is quite unique, as there are several people who have had a psychosis in the past, or have been diagnosed with autism. When I look at myself I know that I have some things that will always play a role: I'm very sensitive to the atmosphere in the workplace for example. I also need clear communication, more so than other people. Furthermore, a workweek of maybe 20-25 hours is the max for me. I tried self-employment, but motivation and discipline are a bit hard to come by, and it's not something that will work for me long-term. In theory it's perfect, in practice not so much. I'm not sure what my short-term future will look like, and for this year I'm quite happy where I am, but next year I might go searching for a salaried job again. I'm wondering if there are more people on Slashdot who have a job in ICT, or are seeking one, and also have disabilities. How did you land at your job, and what issues do you run into in daily practice?"
So your story of a workplace with "several people who have had a psychosis in the past" while yourself being a schizophrenic made me laugh when I imagined you working alone at home as I do while being surrounded by other "people" with mental problems.
Sorry... I'm a bad person it seems.
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
Sigh. I guess this troll makes a valid point that the average idiot might think something like this. Most educated people would know better of course. I hope you find a job that you enjoy!
which is totally what she said
My last job included an employee with well controlled schizophrenia and another with moderate autism. The employer did all the right things as far as I'm aware, shorter hours and short-notice time off were available, and all of the management were made aware of the issues. There were plenty of staff meaning that unsuitable or particularly stressful jobs (eg dealing with large crowds at busy periods) could be avoided and the members of staff in question would pick up on the jobs more suited to them instead.
By far the most useful thing, however, were the pub trips after work. Both employees were quite happy to talk openly about their respective conditions, which took it from being a confidential, management-only issue to being an open one where people were encouraged to ask questions and understand how they could help the employees adapt. The chats over a beer/coffee were far more useful than any management policy could have been.
Please consider this account deleted, I just can't be bothered with the spam anymore.
Sitting in an office for 8 hours a day is not a big deal? I have whole weeks where I go without talking to a single person (except email updates). Even during meetings I often just sit there without talking.
And when I get bored (or stressed) I stop the work and just zone out or listen to music until I feel better. Maybe you should try to find a job like mine (designer/programmer).
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
Anonymous Coward wrote:
You're already a webdev...be your own boss and don't mess with anyone else.
I think the OP mentioned that:
That's going to be a problem when he seeks a salaried job -- few employers want an unmotivated, undisciplined employee. If I wanted to hover over the employee and make sure he's doing the work he's supposed to be doing, I'd hire my son.
Sorry to hear about your conditions.
> but motivation and discipline are a bit hard to come by
While that may be true, success like anything else is learned. It starts the first thing you wake up, and ends when you go to sleep. In order to get good at it you have to keep practicing. They say a person becomes proficient at a skill when they have done it for at 1,000 hours. In order to have discipline you must reprogram your mind. With time + effort you can achieve it.
WRT motivation no one can give you motivation. The trouble with companies that often times they should of focus on NOT DEMOTIVATING people. Being self-employed you need to find your own motivation. i.e. There has to be at least _one_ thing you enjoy doing, what is it? You say you are a web developer. Do any programming languages interest you? Any kind of computer science problems? The reason I ask is because:
There are 2 hard things in life
- finding your passion
- finding how to make money at it
Take care of the first one, and the second one will follow.
You say you require clear communication. That's true in all relationships. Your relationship with your computer (i.e the compiler / interpretor requires clear syntax), relationships with your co-workers (miscommunication is the cause of many problems), relationships with friends and family. The point of all this is that there are courses you can take to help with this. Dale Carnegie is a popular one. Shelf-Help books are another.
One of the secrets to happiness is to remove false expectations. You have to match you ideal world with the reality of your situation. Let's play a game for a moment. I have a magic wand; with it you can do anything you want. What would it be? Forget about all the impracticalities for a moment. If you could do anything in the world what would it be? The secret recipe is to now make a game plan on how you could achieve that big goal, but one small sub-goal at a time.
Good luck!
Your diagnosis fits under the requirements of the ADA (if you are looking for a job in the US). Any employer (of sufficient size) must make reasonable accommodations and cannot discriminate against you in the hiring process or during employment if they are aware of your disability. That is not to say that discrimination does not occur. In order for you to be protected by the ADA, the employer must be aware of the disability which will then allow them to discriminate if they are assholes. Considering the level of discrimination against people with mental illnesses, I would keep a record. You are also not required (ethically or legally) to disclose your diagnosis at any time unless you want ADA protections.
Suddenly, the hairy finger of a familiar monkey tapped me on the shoulder. It was time.--G. T.
I work in IT, and am profoundly Deaf. Working with a disability is definitely a challenge. You have to set expectations and remind people constantly--I work in a company of only 35 people and I have to remind people I can't hear for shit. You have to advocate for yourself, and let people know what YOU need to be successful in the job. That being said, all of these things are difficult to do.
A year spent in artificial intelligence is enough to make one believe in God.
When I was just starting out, I originally found work in my field because I showed an aptitude to learn and to help, and was constantly searching for more to learn, but I was unemployed student. I spoke with my professor and expressed my difficulty in looking for a job that suited me. Now granted, it was sheer luck for me, my professor came back to me a week later stating that he knew of a place I could / should apply to. He wrote a letter of recommendation and I submitted my resume / application. It took a month before I was offered an interview, but it happened. It started out as part-time work, and once I proved my eagerness to exceed, and I showed that I was responsible and truly cared about my work ethic, it was a word-of-mouth lead that landed me some additional work to get full-time.
I didn't have a disability other than needing glasses, but I had to prove myself, that I was more than just some college kid. I think that is what you're in need of, is a little help from friends and a lot of proving yourself. Performing volunteer work is a good start, and I think you're on the right track. If you are a solid member in your community you might look to community associations to try to garner some work, or through your local congregation if you attend church. A good Samaritan is a great place to start, but remember, you have to prove that that Samaritan is right about you and show that you're worthy of that praise. Once you've established yourself again then you'll probably see a lot more open doors of opportunity.
This is only my 2 cents, I hope it helps. Good luck.
Life takes interesting turns, but the most interest is when you're off the beaten path.
I've got good news, most people in I.T. seem like they have autism to non I.T. people. You'll get by just fine.
> That's going to be a problem when he seeks a salaried job -- few employers want an unmotivated, undisciplined employee. If I wanted to hover over the employee and make sure he's doing the work he's supposed to be doing, I'd hire my son.
I can clarify that.
When I'm at the workplace this is different. I am motivated and disciplined. I'm at the place where it is expected to work, and that's what I do. Also there's a clear border, when I'm home my workday is over and I don't have to worry about it.
Working from home is a lot harder, to me at least, and I heard other people mention it. When I'm home I am usually relaxing a bit, so the place has a complete different association with me. Also there's no clear border, I can work for 7 hours straigt and still feel the rest of the day that I should be doing stuff. Or take a day off, like any normal person, and feel that way the whole day. That gets tired very soon.
So I figured out I need a real work environment, and I can't work from home.
Well, don't worry about that. We can get you back before you leave. (Dr. Who)
There are collectives such as the renocollective.com that offers very affordable workspace to freelancers and start-ups. This way you can be self-employed, not working from your home and meet other creative people during the day. You can pay by the day if you plan to work few days a week. I think this can be the next best thing for you if you cannot land a job. Look around your area. Best luck to you.
Tomorrow is another day...
Furthermore, a workweek of maybe 20-25 hours is the max for me. I tried self-employment, but motivation and discipline are a bit hard to come by, and it's not something that will work for me long-term. In theory it's perfect, in practice not so much.
I don't want to be self-employed either, but it's because I'm not a good salesman, not a good negotiator, hate the administrative parts of contracts and schedules and billing and I don't want my entire paycheck to depend on finding work. If you don't have the motivation and discipline for the work itself you're not going to be much of an employee either, on top of your other issues. If you want to find a job I wouldn't let that shine through, because I saw big red blinking "do not hire" signs that had nothing to do with your schizophrenia.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
>>> "If I wanted to hover over the employee and make sure he's doing the work he's supposed to be doing, I'd hire my son."
Priceless.
"Life is not magic." Dr. Ron Weiss - "If we don't play God, who will?" Dr. James Watson
Ah, yes. I should have elaborated in the startpost, but it was too long already.
At my workplace I'm really motivated, and do a lot of work. It's not a problem there.
It's only a problem working from home, because of many different factors.
Well, don't worry about that. We can get you back before you leave. (Dr. Who)
In addition to collectives, there are other public places that you might do well in. I sometimes work at the public library. It's generally quiet, and it's not home. There's a cafe' I often work at (I make a point to spend money there, so I don't feel bad using one of the several open tables).
But if you need a routine, then an office might be the place for you.
I might look for government employment. City/County. Very large organizations tend to be better equipped to handle and understand unusual worker needs.
Good luck.
Just because you are at a PUB doesnt mean you are forced to get drunk. Get a Ginger Ale on the rocks and have a good time instead of ruining it for everyone else that does want to have a beer or something.
I had similar issues (working from home focus issues), and I found that I was able to work from home iff I set aside a work area (an office) that I only used for work (no-multitasking allowed). This gave me enough of a psychological barrier that I changed from work to play mode just by entering the space. I no longer work at home, but maintain the space as my project room, and it still serves it's purpose. Give it a try.
So I figured out I need a real work environment, and I can't work from home.
FWIW, I have a friend who started working from home, and expressed the same concerns as you. To compensate, he did a few things. First he has a general daily schedule that he follows as strictly as he can. This schedule includes two hours in the middle of his work morning, part of which he uses to cook breakfast for his family before they leave for the day. He logs off email, and lets work calls go to voice mail outside these times. He also has a home office. He only uses the office when he is working. Personal time spent using the computer is done outside of his office. Finally, he hangs his company ID around his neck, just like when he is in a company office. It is a visual indicator to let his family know when he is is working. The point of all of this was to create mental and visual barriers between home and work.
Unfortunately autism is not a legally protected disability in the United States
You need to do more research... or you're playing word games with "what is the meaning of the word is" or trolling for sympathy
so "coming out" to my coworkers, boss, HR, et al is much too big of a risk.
As a sysadmin you have to realize that a law is not like having a root password. Unless you have enough money to enforce the law, volunteer lawyer or friend lawyer or whatever, the law may as well not exist.
No doubt my coworkers must think I'm one of the strangest people they've ever met.
I've met some pretty strange people on the job, so I find this extremely unlikely. Or you're got really boring coworkers, this does happen. I've experienced that as a class the hard core drug addicts are pretty much all weirder than all of the disabled people I've ever met, so unless you're also an alkie or coke fiend or meth head there's a whole entire class of weirdos who will seem weirder than you. I've worked with autistic people and they're unusual (which is OK/cool) but the real weirdos have all been alkies and coke fiends and so on, a whole class of weirdness above the disabled people.
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Motivation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co_DNpTMKXk
Why hire you when there are probably hundreds of alternative applicants without your baggage? Either you have some crazy unique skill to bring to the table, or they have a financial incentive to hire you (pay less money than someone "normal", or maybe there's some weird tax writeoff).
I don't mean this as an insult or anything, just as a shot of reality. You say you are happy doing volunteer work right now, which sort of implies that you are able to pay bills and stuff. If that's the case, stick with it. You can do that and some self-employment on the side as your motivation allows. You aren't going to find that kind of happiness with a salary job.
That's going to be a problem when he seeks a salaried job
Undoubtedly. So, what are we as a society going to do with our schizophrenics in particular, and the problem of mental illness in general?
Let's begin with the understanding that schizophrenia, like autism and Down's Syndrome, is an organic problem, where something physically went wrong with the body. It isn't the result of harsh circumstances like PTSD (also a very real and crippling problem) or a "learned behavior" like certain phobias. This means we can put schizophrenics right next to victims of childhood polio who can no longer walk. The disabilities they face aren't their "fault," and any "bootstrappy" behavior we might expect from them is right off the table. These people, who certainly can still live full, meaningful and productive lives, are simply going to need some help and consideration.
It's really unlikely that their condition is going to make them brilliant crimefighters.
This is supposed to be where the "compassionate" part of "compassionate conservative" kicks in, but unfortunately, it's actually the case that proves "compassionate conservative" is an oxymoron. They say the problem with mental illness is that it's "invisible," that it's harder for people to empathize with a schizophrenic than say, the blind, because mental illness doesn't show obvious trauma the way that MS does.
I'd be more inclined to agree if my state's schools for the blind and deaf didn't keep getting their funding slashed time and again. I can tell you from first-hand experience that my State's plan for the handicapped, despite an awesome amount of empty spin and window dressing, basically boils down to three choices; Family, Homelessness or Prison.
The people of the United States used to unanimously agree on this, that we had an obligation to care for and support the infirm, that a basic benchmark of civilization was that we took care of people who could not care for themselves. We lost that conviction sometime around the time when Reagan turned mental patients into homeless people, and then used that collection of homeless people to demonize the poor.
So, I guess the question I'm asking here is aimed at my fellow citizens and especially fellow Christians who identitfy as "conservatives." How about this guy? Schizophrenia. An actual medical problem, no fault of his own. Able to lead a productive life if we just shield him a little from the Darwinian bloodbath.
Can we get your heart to bleed at least a little bit for him? Can we set up a filthy Socialist program to make sure "the least of these" gets the help they need, or are we going to sit back and cheer as Ayn Rand slashes his throat?
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
While I know the problem is a serious one and its fully classified as a disability, it almost sounds as if you're using it as a crutch in the summary. What I'm trying to say is that no situation is ever going to be perfect, and everyone has some nag or another that wears on them whether it be a disability, family problems, or in my case severe OCD to the point of trichotillomania. I think that finding a manager who is understanding and willing to work with you is the best thing you're going to be able to do. If you demand they heed your every desire and consider everything else unacceptable, you aren't going to ever land a job in a positive work environment. This is something you're going to have to meet others in the middle on and try to focus on the positives rather than the negatives. Its all relative and everyone has to do this, whether its visible to the observer or not.
In short: try to not wait for the ideal scenario, meet people halfway. That doesn't mean you shouldn't be open about your issues, it just means you shouldn't lean on the issue as an "out" when a less-than-perfect scenario shows up. Give it a shot, you may surprise yourself.
Americans with Disabilities Amendments Act of 2008 as per http://www.autismpolicyblog.com/2011/03/americans-with-disabilities-act-new.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADA_Amendments_Act_of_2008
http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/release/11-7-11a.cfm "Comfort Suites To Pay $132,500 For Disability Discrimination Against Clerk With Autism"
This one is very important, look at page two "Examples Illustrating Definition of Disability" one of the examples used to define a disability was specifically to list autism, by name. Its kind of hard to wiggle out of "autism isn't a disability" when its specifically listed by name in regulation as an example of a legally protected disability.
http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/regulations/upload/adaaa-summary.pdf
I mean when the EEOC uses your diagnosis as an example of what the law covers, its kind of hard to claim that example doesn't fit under the definition. Now my ingrown toenail was not listed by name, so I would have a fight in court to prove its a disability by definition, unlike your diagnosis.
Obviously your best bet is as per your own comment:
Accordingly, at the advice of my attorney
Yeah that'll probably work a hell of a lot better than the advice of some idiot on /. who none the less knows some people with autism and also knows how to use google really well. However if you haven't talked to your lawyer since 2008 when they passed the law, or 2011 when the EEOC released their new regulations specifically naming autism, maybe its time to talk again, or at least think about it?
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
I find that wearing shoes is critical to feeling like I'm 'at work', pants not so much.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Government work. State or federal.
The sad commentary on our times is that I can't tell if this is a troll or someone's legitimate belief...
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
Agreed, he's going to have to make it worth it for someone to put in more hours than he does. Some people could do it. If I could get a 50%-50% cut with Warren Buffett where he only worked 25 hours and I had to work 60, it would still probably be worth it because I know he knows how to get people stinking rich and I don't. I'd probably let him own 50% if he just called me every morning with some specific directions or tips for the day.
Unfortunately, our poster is probably not a financial leader, captain of industry, famous researcher, or a genius artist, but his skills may be worth partnering with him, just the same. Consider again Steve Jobs. Without a Woz, Jobs is a guy without a college degree who has a thing for design and marketing. He *might* have still done well, but it could be cast into some doubt.
Some people who have an insanely good work ethic, but lack specific skills that could give them a product to sell might be okay if their partner was just productive enough so that they could crank out something they could work with. Many agents, editors, and trainers work with what might be called flaky people every day, and they make money by adding their work to the flake's talent to produce something that can make both a good deal of money.
So, if he can only work 25 hours a week, he's going to need to learn some way of making those 25 hours of work the most productive possible. It can be done. High levels of automation, careful time management, complete focus, development of an in-demand skillset could achieve that. If he can work solid blocks of time without the usual distractions, he can probably achieve more than he would if he decided to be the usual sort of social butterfly at work.
It will not be easy, but I presume that no one ever told him that life was going to be carefree.
I too have schizophrenia and was hospitalized just before xmas. I work as a the sysadmin in an ecommerce company with around 100 servers, in an often stressful environment.
When i first started i had a lot of days sick and my boss took me to one side and said do you want to stay in the job? I thought about how much i love working with linux compared to the often extra hours i need in bed after my illness has affected my sleep and said yes. He replied well if you don't have another day off in six months i won't outsource your job (he knows he cant fire me due to discrimination).
OK so my boss is a dick but the choice is mine. A job i enjoy with people i mostly like, cool tech and going to bed early or sitting around collecting the pittance that is disabled living allowance, bored shitless with little self worth.
When I'm at the workplace this is different. I am motivated and disciplined. I'm at the place where it is expected to work, and that's what I do. Also there's a clear border, when I'm home my workday is over and I don't have to worry about it.
Really? You suffer from motivation problems? You don't want to work when you don't have to?
Listen, I'm not against accommodations. But what you describe is the EXACT SAME THING everyone else deals with on a day-to-day basis. If you get special accommodations because you find it hard to work, I want them too. Why is your situation different from mine? Because of an internal mental state that can't be directly observed? So I'm denied support because I'm trying harder to keep my sh*t together?
Mental illness is a serious issue. Please treat it seriously. IF you don't want to work, don't blame circumstances outside of your control.
Quartz Extreme and Core Image. Are there any other real reasons to spend all that money on generic hardware?
Agreed, but the post isn't about people with mental problems, it's about people with disabilities in the workplace. And as my boss, you most certainly DO have to worry about my environment as a Deafie. You have to make sure that I don't have too many meetings, because it takes INTENSE mental focus to stay up to speed in crowds when I have to 1) figure out who's speaking, 2) focus on them and try to read their lips and foreign accents, 3) provide meaningful feedback.
But yes, you are absolutely correct in that it's a different ballgame hiring someone with a mental problem vs Deaf.
A year spent in artificial intelligence is enough to make one believe in God.
Before I got my cochlear implant, the work-place was rough: simple things that everyone else took for granted, like fundamental communication, was nearly impossible for me. An innocent question about how you're doing could be a major hassle, ending up in embarrassment for me.
True story: at a "division" meeting - I don't recall what level of the organization it was, but it was high up there and there were lots of people in attendance - I'd sat through what seemed like forever, not having a freakin' clue as to what was going on, what we were discussing, etc. I did catch when, near the end of the meeting, the CxO said, "Are there any more questions?" I said, "Yeah, can we leave, now?" I saw him chuckle, slightly, and he wrapped up the meeting after that, but I still cringe thinking about how rude I must have appeared. It certainly wasn't "professional."
Since I got my CI, it's almost like I'm "normal." I may have to ask someone to "Say that again," but I'm able to follow along, for the most part. I don't just sit there like the invisible man, and can participate in meetings, conversations, etc.
If I was a manager of someone with disabilities, having my perspective, I'd definitely go out of my way to find out how we could help them become productive, contributing members.
How is accommodating someone with a mental disability any different that dealing with someone with a physical disability?
If you have someone at work who is in a wheel chair, you would need to ensure there is access for them, everything they need to do their job can be reached from the chair, that in the event of an evacuation their location is rapidly determined and they are evacuated along with everyone else even though they can't take the stairs.
If a person is deaf you have to adapt meeting practices, phones, etc..., if a person is blind they may need screen readers or braille output devices. If a person is recovering from an injury they may be on reduced hours and reduced duties.
If you, as an employer, have decided that this person will add benefit to your company sufficient for them to be on the payroll (or volunteers list), then you have a responsibility to make it a safe workplace for them.
My husband has a medical condition which can result in him having fits and seizures. It can be triggered by stress and heat among other conditions. His work has ensured that the first aid officers on his floor know how to manage someone having a seizure. They have provided a standing fan near his desk so he can control the air flow if it's a warm day and he needs more breeze than the aircon is providing as a base. His coworkers have my number in their phones and visa-versa so that we can communicate if he has an episode. My boss is aware that I keep a chat window open to him during the day to monitor him (especially on bad days) so that I can call his boss if I notice him starting to have symptoms (aphasia is often a warning sign).
His boss has found him to be an excellent employee who occasionally has bad days. The good days outweigh the bad days. Lots of places wouldn't consider him knowing he is subject to seizures.
I get incredibly angry listening to policy wonks talking about getting the disabled back to work and off benefits. That's all well and good, but how do you get employers to take a chance on someone with a medical condition which may unpredictably affect their capacity to work. It's incredibly tempting to lie about it in the recruitment process, but it's likely to come up before your trial period is over - and then your boss has to assess that if you lied about that, what else may you be deceiving him about.
Most people with some kind of mental disability have triggers. Your responsibility as a boss is to provide them with a 'safe' environment where you minimise their exposure to trigger situations - for example, don't put them in a customer facing role, keep them dealing with internal staff who are familiar with some degree of routine. If you take on someone with a chronic medical condition (mental or physical) then you sign on for the possibility that they may have medical absences on potentially short notice.
But guess what. You sign on for the same thing with parents who may have to take time off to look after sick kids. Or people with partners or older parents or siblings who may have to take carers leave to look after other members of their family. Or singles who may have accidents, injuries or just a cold or flu at various times of the year.
Sara
Designer, Gamer, Macgrrl in an XP World
I'm glad things worked out for you. My husband was misdiagnosed as epileptic for nearly a decade before his apnea was correctly diagnosed. According to his specialist he rates about a 3.5 on the 1-3 scale for severity. He has acquired amnesia covering several years from where his condition meant he couldn't form long term memories and often couldn't distinguish between short and long term memories and was hallucinating frequently.
I do most of the driving even though he never lost his license just to be sure that if there was an accident the insurance company can't weasel out of paying because he was behind the wheel - even though he would never drive if he was experiencing pre-seizure symptoms.
He spent nearly 5 years out of the fulltime workforce after he was recovering from his lowest point medically, and we have been blessed with friends in positions to recommend him for roles since getting back into full time work where the employers have known about his condition upfront and been fabulous about dealing with it. However any role he interviewed for where he mentioned it outside of interviews where he had a personal recommendation from an existing employee have resulted in a closed door.
As the spouse of someone with a chronic medical condition, I feel I have to disclose it when I interview because I periodically get calls asking me to take him home because he's collapsed at work and isn't competent to make his own way home unescorted.
He currently has a application support role with a large university. One of his coping mechanisms for memory issues is that he documents EVERYTHING to the nth degree. He is highly organised at work, because he needs familiarity. He is good at researching solutions and can follow instructions/read the manual. It makes him good at his job in a way some people who rely on memory and 'wing it' aren't.
Sara
Designer, Gamer, Macgrrl in an XP World
That's hell when the UPS guy rings the doorbell and you try to quickly put pants on over your shoes.