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Science Wins Over Creationism In South Korea
ananyo writes "South Korea's government has urged textbook publishers to ignore calls to remove two examples of evolution from high-school textbooks. The move marks a change of heart for the government, which had earlier forwarded a petition from the 'Society for Textbook Revise' to publishers and told them to make their own minds up about the demands. The petition called for details about the evolution of the horse and of the avian ancestor Archaeopteryx to be removed from the books. In May, news emerged that publishers were planning to drop the offending sections, sparking outrage among some scientists. The resulting furor prompted the government to set up an 11-member panel, led by the Korean Academy of Science and Technology. On 5 September, the panel concluded that Archaeopteryx must be included in Korean science textbooks. And, while accepting that the textbooks' explanation of the evolution of the horse was too simplistic, the panel said the entry should be revised rather than removed or replaced with a different example, such as the evolution of whales."
My opinion is as good as your science! Silly asians...
The Fellowship of the Rings should be taught in science class along side the [derisive tone] "theory" of evolution. Precious.
Your phone did not pop into existence by command of an almighty Creator. Instead, it evolved in over hundreds of years from insights and incremental improvements from many different people.
Silly Americans to think different(ly) (tm)
If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
They're not even just pushing religion into science class anymore. Now they're actually trying to censor information that contradict their dogma. Pathetic.
Fundamentalists (Read: believes in the fundamentals of Christianity) such as myself applaud such rulings very loudly. Our scriptures - Genesis - clearly portray the sun, moon and stars being in our atmosphere. If you really want to take the creation accounts literally, you cannot say "Oh, we know not to that that literally". But that is exactly what many literalist Christians say. Why do you then insist that you have to chose between science and a seven day creation?
This stuff's all gibberish, NONE of these kids understand either religion or science at all. False opposite stereotyping of reality based psychosis with a parental paranoid bent. I've never seen North Koreans type any item so dumb, but then again they're all witches. You can tell by their badge :0)
The purpose of existence is to make money.
Someone has to pay for all the bailout money and we sure cant have the banks and their wealthy owners doing that can we?
HTTP/1.1 400
Thank Science for that!
Woppa science style!
According to the Wikipedia page, Christianity came to South Korea in the 17th century. When the more obnoxious form of modern fundamentalist Christianity arrived, with anti-science creationism, I'm not sure. Or maybe that statement is a bit ridiculous, since anti-science creationism is part of the original philosophy. Does anyone have any insight into the history of this form of evangelical Christianity? There is now a Korea Association for Creation Research, whose history I'd like to know more about. I imagine they have some tie to the Institute for Creation Research. Creationism, setting science education back by several centuries.
If science books are going to include examples of evolution, then, to provide balance, they must include examples of devolution. Creationists and fundamentalists should be cited as examples of the Theory of Devolution, which claims human beings are degenerating and they will eventually become chimpanzees or gorillas.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
We can put evolution theory in science books because we have "scientific" (which rhymes with "science") evidence that the theory is reasonable and makes some sense with the observations anyone can do.
We could put intelligent design and creationism in science books if we had some similar evidence. Which we have not.
Do you want to promote you theory? Well, create a new course, call it "religion", convince your Govt. to add it to schools (some countries have that) and put there your 6-days creation process. None will be allowed to stand out against it, for sure.
But don't even think to put non-scientific stuff in a science book. Please!
Sent as ripples into the electromagnetic field. No single photon has been harmed in the process.
Why on Earth is this even an issue ? It is clearly that creationism is nothing but religious fundamentalism Taliban style. I have grown tiered of people are undermining society, democracy , technical progress and science with there own stupidity and religious fundamentalism. This is an non-issue. The creationisms are wrong. Have always been wrong. All there arguments are lies and always will be that.
This people are best put silent by telling to shut the fuck up! Preferably forever.
I know that I am going to flamed for this by religious fundamentalists that lurk slashdot for this type of comments and articles. But I do not care. As I know that I am right and they are wrong.
Yes, let's definitely insist that the ONLY possible explanation that's "scientific" involves pre-existent matter, pre-existent energy and pre-existent natural and physical laws...not to mention the entire "evolutionary process" having NO means to add information. That's clearly more "scientific"...
Science is man's description of God's creation.
The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.
ACK
Let's be sure to elect someone who will do nothing but kowtow to corporate leaders his entire time in office!
It worked perfectly last time. And the time before that.
"kowtow to corporate leaders"
You sound like a parrot. Did you read this on the back of a bag of Cheetos?
I think South Korea's education system may have more pressing problems...
Wow, if Korea turned against evolution, how would Zerg do their upgrades?
You should be cited along with them as someone who'd rather see discord over reason.
Science only one this round because it happened to complain the loudest ("sparking outrage among some scientists"), it could have very well worked out the other way.
We shouldn't be deciding what is taught based on popular opinion or who had the loudest voice in expressing their opinion instead based on what is true and verifiable.
I think the age of science is ending, it is the dawn of the age of stupidity.
evolution of the horse
I'm sorry, but science simply cannot explain how the pegasus (equus aves) and unicorn (equus magicus) arose from the earth pony (equus terra) without intervention from the goddess Faustia.
I don't see any obviously Lord of the Rings images on their website:
http://controversy.wearscience.com/
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
You do understand facts don't you? Bush - unemployment 4.5%, gas $1.80 per gallon. Obama; longest stretch of unemployment over 8% in recorded history, gas nearing $4/gallon. But like a drone you blame bush and are perfectly willing to go and pull the Democrat lever aren't you?
Because obviously the President has full control of oil prices and private businesses' hiring rates.
The beloved Supreme Leader Kim Jong-un wins from both science AND religion! All hail Kim Jong-un!
rm -rf --no-preserve-root /
I think there should be far more discussion in the schools of the falacy of religion. It should be done under the guise of critical thinking. Students should be actively pushed to write papers and have public debates poining out the falacies of religion. Simple subjects like, "Why Believe in God", and a good discussion of "The Suffering of Little Children" from "Brothers Kramozov" should start things rolling around. More active discussions should include "The God Dilusion" by Dawkins, and pretty soon, most priests will be pissed off.
...include examples of devolution.
Here you go! We're through being cool.
Why are anti-Christian bigots so afraid of alternative views? Is your belief so weak that at its mere mention you crumble or is it something else? You hide behind scientific theories and force your atheism on the rest of us. We have freedom of thought and speech and religion in the United States BECAUSE of Christianity, not in spite of it. To believe in “A” or “B” except “you” decide mine is wrong. And I have to pay taxes to have your view “evangelized.” Bonus!
What people mockingly call "devolution" is evolution. You can even cite examples of traits which wither away because they are no longer advantageous for genetic selection. There's no need to cover it as a separate topic. The loss of a trait or ability can be and often is advantageous as most require energy to maintain. (Our large brain is a huge disadvantage when food is scarce.)
There's also the myth that evolution has an overall direction, for example from single celled life to humans. While humans might take longer to evolve and might seem more advanced to us, we share the world and even our bodies with billions of single celled organisms which are doing just fine. They have been evolving for just as long as we have, and in that sense are just as evolved.
...now it's a vastly more sensible attitude about biology. Korea is so far ahead of the USA we may never catch up...
Right... Bush has *nothing* to do with the current state of affairs? Did I read that correctly?
Abiogenesis is definitely an unsolved problem - so far. So what? The question of how life got started is logically distinct from how it developed after that start. And evolution addresses that question comprehensively. (Even in the case of the putative examples of 'irreducible complexity' that ID'ers have advanced - e.g. the bacterial flagellum, the clotting cascade, or the vertebrate immune system.)
(Oh, and progress is actually being made on the abiogenesis front anyway.)
PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
Gimme the name of any textbook actually in use in any school that "claims that life can be created synthetically using Natural means".
PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
I think it's worth reposting this:
No Evolution in Korea?
"What STR did manage to pull off with three textbook publishers was this: STR convinced those publishers that two diagrams in their books -- one about the evolution of horses, and the other about archeopteryx -- and the text accompanying them were scientifically incorrect. Notice the claim here: the claim was not that the diagrams were against creationism. The claim was that the diagrams were scientifically incorrect."
"And you know what? Technically, they were right! The diagram above showing the evolution of horses is horribly outdated, and the pictures no longer comport with the current scientific consensus. The text accompanying archeopteryx said archeopteryx is the middle step between dinosaurs and birds, which is also technically incorrect -- archeopteryx is considered a close relative to the true ancestral birds, not itself a true ancestral bird. So the three textbook companies decided that they would drop the two diagrams in the next edition of their textbooks."
"Pay close attention to what actually happened here. What got dropped was two diagrams and the accompanying texts about evolution that were scientifically incorrect -- not the theory of evolution. It is not possible for the textbook publishers to drop the discussion about the theory of evolution, because that would violate MEST guidelines. Further, not even the decision to drop the two diagrams was final, because MEST still had to approve the new textbooks that the publishers proposed to make."
"But of course, STR nutcases thought they scored a huge victory for creationism, and started trumpeting their "victory." By and large, Korean media yawned -- exactly one national newspaper (and a relatively minor one at that) covered the story, and even that story made it quite clear that all that got dropped were diagrams. But the Nature magazine decided to run with the story, with a sensational headline that read: "South Korea surrenders to creationist demands," and here we are -- Korea is branded as a dumb country that doesn't believe in evolution."
Basically, it didn't become a problem until foreigners misunderstood what happened and trumpeted it as the beginning of creationism in Korea. The Korean government responded not because of creeping creationism but to save face in front of the international community. If anything, this whole misunderstanding may in fact work in favor of creationists in Korea because now it has drawn attention to what had been a fringe, ignored cause from other creationist movements overseas.
How do you get "American election" from this topic?
Do the usual republican hater that post as AC on slashdot fail at reading too?
Or is it that everything about Creationism is really about the USA even if it's in Korea?
Assuming you're not harming anyone else, live as you see fit. I believe that if by living and learning you happen to ignore religious "law" god will understand it's all a part of growing up. If god does will not understand then he is not god, so why worry about it?
If god was so offended that creationism is not taught, why didn't god write/inspire his holy book/s correctly the first time?
Don't get me wrong, I completely agree creationism must be taught alongside of science, my problem is which version of creationism to teach.
Once we can decide which religion is true and which is false we can finally begin the holy work of teaching the right version of creationism and all that good stuff.
Of course I'd not want to put many different people of different religions in a room to debate this, god might be offended by their consequent behavior.
Come to think about it, if god is so bothered about people believing in him and their eternal souls and all that, why doesn't he just say so? heck Amazon will give him an exclusive on the Kindle Fire HD. I can see it now "Kindle Sin Hellfire - GOD EDITION!"
A 'singular oddity' is an event that cannot be explained and only happens when you are alone.
There are 'holes' in General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, too. (They make conflicting predictions in conditions we can't yet test, so at least one and probably both are wrong.) But we still teach them in schools, because they are the best theories we have and they cover such a huge range of phenomena with such precision that, whatever the truth turns out to be, it'll still look a hell of a lot like GR and QM.
As Isaac Asimov put it, "[W]hen people thought the earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the earth was [perfectly] spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Newton's Laws are wrong, yes... but they are so close to right we still use them every day, and teach them in schools. Hell, NASA still uses plain old Newtonian physics to pilot their space probes, with just a few occasional relativistic fudge factors, because a full GR treatment would be prohibitively complex and add no useful accuracy.
It's the same with evolution. We know that all life is related by common descent, and that life has changed drastically over the course of 3.5 billion years, and that complex structures were built by numerous small tweaks well within the realm of chance. Natural selection has been demonstrated now and over the fossil record.
Evolution is true. Will there be further clarifications and refinements? Sure. But they won't upend evolution any more than GR and QM could possibly be 'overturned'.
PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
And that's about as far as most posters read, I'll bet, before posting their "look how stupid religious people are" rants. Creationists are not all stupid. You might think they're wrong, but people can be very intelligent and wrong at the same time. Archaeopteryx and eohippus are oft cited examples of evolution, but there is some doubt today about their accuracy. Heck, the scientists COMPLIED with half of the request. The eohippus to horse scenario is inaccurate and should be removed! However, they let the Archaeopteryx stand even though it might not really represent a transition between dinosaurs and birds. "Science wins"? Maybe Korean educators should be embarrassed that creationists had to point out the scientific flaws in their textbooks. BTW, my kids' science textbooks had the same examples.
Prov 9:8 Do not rebuke mockers or they will hate you; rebuke the wise and they will love you.
Now can the South Korean government please use science to figure out that you can't die from being exposed to a fan overnight?
== Jez ==
Do you miss Firefox? Try Pale Moon.
Disusing The Theory of Evolution or abiogenesis with a Creationist is pointless for they do not have the required educational background to understand the principles involved to even support their own position let alone contradict an opposing view.
Disusing The Theory of Evolution or abiogenesis with a Fundamentalist is also pointless because their faith is absolute as opposed to the faith of a Creationist who requires bastardized and antiquated scientific 'facts' in order to shore up their own faith.
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
It was a Catholic priest, Georges Lemaître, that most pushed for the big ban theory, which was advanced science in that day. It was the atheists that were anti-science then, with their now-debunked "Static" theory.
Actually the person who first came up with a dynamic cosmological model of general relativity was Alexander Friedman, hence the reason for the term FLRW metric. Lemaître did come up with a "primitive atom", but it was Fred Hoyle who first coined the term "Big Bang".
Or we could, you know, present both possibilities and let people decide from themselves instead of trying to force one theory or the other down someone's throat. I'd imagine, when presented with the facts, most people would look to science for the answer in this debate, but I don't see the need to force one argument or the other.
There is only one theory, i.e something that makes testable predictions, has undergone testing and not been falsified. Creationism whether of the original kind or in its clown-shoe variant "ingenuous design" are not theories in the scientific sense.
I have yet to understand why people conflate the two.
Creationists are not all stupid.
As the saying goes, you can be intelligent, honest and a creationist.
Just not all three at the same time.
"Science Wins Over Creationism In South Korea" is a horrible title.
Creationism is a "theory" just as evolution is. It is wrong to say that Creationism isn't science because you disagree with it. Both religion's scientists view the same evidence and make different determinations based on the assumptions they have.
The title should read:
"The Religion of Evolution Wins Over the Religion of Christianity in South Korea."
Dome may not be a correct translation of the word more commonly translated as Firmament (and may be due to the limits of people reading this).
Anybody that can read hebrew wanna comment??
a big thing when reading the bible is REFERENCE THE ORIGINAL TEXT (as much as possible) one could notice that the Latin for verse 14 reads dixit autem Deus fiant luminaria in firmamento caeli ut dividant diem ac noctem et sint in signa et tempora et dies et annos
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
"Good grief you people are dumb. No one is hiring now unless they absolutely have to as they are waiting to see if Obama is thrown out and then secondarily if Obamacare is dumped."
Can I be in your living-room the night when Obama will be declared president for another 4 years?
That will be so much fun.
My thoughts: Science classes should teach evolution, not creationism, the latter is not science. If you want to rationally approach the subject of our origins in an open minded way, that is the place of an appropriate branch of philosophy. If you look for a theory that fits the evidence and make reasonable assumptions that batsh** crazy stuff isn't happening behind the scenes, evolution's what you get, thus that's what should be taught in science classes. What direly needs to be taught is that the scientific approach isn't the only way to view the world, and that science divorced of its underlying philosophy becomes like a house with its foundations removed. There is a point to faith, and indeed to myths. The point of myths is that much meaning can be conveyed to a level sufficient for everyday life that would require thousands of journal articles to pin down to scientific standards, if it can be pinned down at all. Sometimes a myth is enough.
In short, teach basic maths, basic science and teach people how to be open-minded, reason carefully and not be dogmatic about what they believe.
Also develop a good notion what faith is, in both a secular and religious context and teach that. Do not teach the agressive secularist idea that faith is old-fashioned, backward, inconsistent with evidence or just plain wrong. That is, alas, the seed of religious dogmatism growing up within the humanist viewpoint, where surely religious dogmatism has no place.
John_Chalisque
The cult leader is dead. Sudden outbreak of common sense.
New Economic Perspectives
1. How does science explain where the material for the big bang came from and why it was there? Where's the scientific explanation of the material's origin, I would love to hear it... science only goes so far no matter HOW MUCH of it you accept
2. How did the reproductive system evolve? If the theory of evolution is that mutations that help an organism survive are what get selected, none of the system in either gender existed at the outset, most if not all of it needs to be present in order for it to work, and without it working there is no survival advantage, how did it evolve? Was it just 1,000 random mutations all happening at exactly the same time?
I am not really religious. But I will discount all theories of some other being having a hand in creating us when science has a full and fully defensible explanation
Genesis doesn't claim that God's days are 24 hours long. By some reports, the original Hebrew word that we now translate as 'days' is more like 'aeons' -- the Sun and the Moon weren't even created until the 4th 'day'.
Then, of course, there are those who say that the 31 lines of Genesis that describe creation aren't to be taken as a detailed account of creation -- and, more importantly, that we shouldn't make up all sorts of random stuff and pretend that that's in those 31 lines as well and demand that other people accept the stuff that people made up be included as God Given Truth. They even expect god to abide by our own 24 hour day. Rather presumptuous of us, yes?
Consider it, instead, as a parable for people who didn't even have a firm grasp of Newtonian mechanics, much less Relativity (and for the most part wouldn't have cared less about the later, even if God had tried to explain it back then). Notice, even, that between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 there is a different order for the creation of man and beast. God, it seems, is outside of the ordere of time.
I take from Genesis a few key talking points:
The details of how god created the universe, the world and us is really left as an exercise for the reader. Those who claim that the stuff that they made up after reading Genesis is the God given truth are simply playing god, themselves.
Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
I usually avoid these flame-fest articles entirely anymore, but I have to point out that any texts that claim archaeopteryx as an avian ancestor (it's more like an avian uncle) or show horse evolution in an equally flawed manner need to be revised. A creationist group was involved, but the fact remains the book needs to be fixed. But let's not bother reading the article. TL;DR. Don't let a good attack on those radical fundies go to waste.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
Well, there is a direction in the sense that single celled life needs to evolve before more complex life can evolve. One could also argue that, given relatively stable circumstances, complex life is bound to evolve at some point. And even though complex species can be much more fragile than single celled species as a whole, the individuals can be more resilient in the face of changing circumstances and less prone to die.
Okay, I'll feed the troll.
White people did "evolve" from black people as you say, however your complete misconception appears to be that evolution means "better", i.e. that white people are better that black people. Yes white people are "fitter" for an environment that it far from the equator. However, black people are "fitter" for an equatorial environment. That's it, that's the only conclusion that you can draw, nothing about any other traits. One cannot draw any conclusion about which is "best" from this evidence - except that black people are "better" for equatorial regions and white people are "better" for non-equatorial regions.
Also don't forget that the black population that remained near the equator also continued to evolve based on fitness for their environment, just as the population who moved away from the equator evolved paler skin based on fitness for their non-equatorial environment.
So guess what? Piss on such ideas. Even if they were true, they'd still be totally worthless.
In passing, I note that I've seen people who argue both that (a) the universe is so fine-tuned that any change would make life impossible, so God must have designed the universe, and (b) the laws of nature might have been totally different in the past, so that 4.6 billion years of radioactive decay could happen in 1/750,000th of the time without evaporating the Earth. I don't know if you're one of that ilk, but it wouldn't surprise me.
PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
Science tells me that the Sun formed before the Earth and the Moon, but the Bible says the Sun and the Moon were created after the Earth. If the Bible was the word of God, or even just divinely inspired shouldn't the order in which things came about at least be correct?
The fight is between science an creation in any case. If God created the universe, the earth and all creatures in 144 hours (6 days), there's no need for it to have occurred in the 'known' order either.
Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
I'm really wondering that the creationism debate infected South Korea at all. Up until now, I thought that the debate of creationism in textbooks and education was a typical Americanism, strictly confined to the USA (or maybe just to its Bible Belt). Is South Korea's educational system such a carbon-copy of the US's system that it is just as vulnerable to the same memes? Anyone from South Korea caring to shed some light on this?
cpghost at Cordula's Web.
Here in TN, they have taken steps though new legislation to allow creationism back into the classroom. This law turns the clock back nearly 100 years here in the seemingly unprogressive South and is simply embarrassing. There is no argument against the Theory of Evolution other than that of religious doctrine. The Monkey Law only opens the door for fanatic Christianity to creep its way back into our classrooms. You can see my visual response as a Tennessean to this absurd law on my artist’s blog at http://dregstudiosart.blogspot.com/2012/04/pulpit-in-classroom-biblical-agenda-in.html with some evolutionary art and a little bit of simple logic.
I objected to faith-based programs at the White House. As in, " religion driv[ing] policy that [atheists] have to live with." So your response is rather beside the point.
PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
We should be sorry for the creationists. Their life is so difficult and keeps getting more difficult because of all the new knowledge that they can't explain. Without a scientific education, they have to struggle to deal with explanations for the scientific evidence pouring in from geology, biology, anthropology, genetics, radioactivity, and astronomy. Worst of all, they have to tie it into cutesy metaphors designed by ancients who thought that the Earth was flat, to guide the tribes of Israel in the Bronze Age. This burden has become too great to pass on to their children, and anyway they understand that there will be no tolerance for creationism in the more savvy next generation.
Still surviving today in living human form is a a precious relic from the ages of ignorance: that 2000 year era during which a very strange miracle-based religion had shaped contemporary western culture. Soon that relic will be gone, and it will be increasingly difficult for living humans to believe that their predecessors could have been so naive. The most interesting studies will be concerned with the 20th and early 21st centuries when, at the very time that science was making enormous strides in explaining the origins of life and the universe, that there actually grew for the first time in the most advanced nation an incredible phenomenon: a significant portion of the population (said to be 40 to 50 percent at the turn of the century) who believed the Bible in an absolute literal sense. They even believed from a simplistic counting of incomplete generation records of one illiterate nomadic Hebrew tribe, that the world was less than 10,000 years old. This evidence may also and also how the mind of somewhat educated 20th century humans could become trapped in ignorance by their fear of what may happen to them after death.
We need to preserve this most important cultural artifact so that it can be studied by future generations trying to understand human evolution. How can we do this preservation? I think we must record their voices and images telling us what they really believe and find a way to store it indefinitely in digital form. Dozens of satellite TV channels must have valuable recordings of the most effective preachers. The Bible alone is not a sufficient record, because no intelligent future human life form will believe that it was ever taken literally. We must find the best examples of this human evidence. Prime specimens are believed to be still living in large numbers in the wild in places like Kentucky, Georgia, Tennessee, and Texas. The Smithsonian must get on to this quickly and develop a new annexe for the American History Museum.
I thought the argument was that "days" wasn't a correct translation and could mean aeons, the point I was making was that even if that was the case the Bible is still wrong.
Yeah, yeah, the terrible atheists are coming. Sorry my asking for effective government policy implies that I crave to be a totalitarian oppressor.
The differences between religious and secular giving aren't that pronounced. And that situation is influenced by lots of propaganda that there's no reason to be good to others if you don't believe in God, which seems to be something of a self-fulfilling prophecy for people who lose faith sometimes.
PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
I guess that burning people on stakes wasn't called fundamentalism as it happened before that. Maybe the correct would have been mainstream Christianity and others were called heretics and tortured to death (of course many mainstream Christians were also tortured until they "confessed" and then they were burned at stake).
We don't know how it happened
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