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Arma III Developers Arrested In Greece For 'Spying'
An anonymous reader writes "Kotaku reports that two employees of Bohemia Interactive have been arrested while on a photo-tour of the Greek island of Limnos, on charges of spying. The developers were taking reference photos for the upcoming military simulation game Arma III, which is to feature Limnos as it's primary setting, when they were arrested (Google translation of Greek original)."
So if I was there as a tourist, would I get arrested?
Or is somehow putting your island into a video game now sedition or something?
TFA is pretty slim, but I'm having a hard time imagine what law was broken.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
What? So much for the 'free' western world. Since when is taking pictures of scenery 'espionage'? I know most people in the west mark the fall of the soviet union as a high point in history for freedom, but legislation/political action in various countries over the last 20 years or so makes it seem like the beginning of its decline.
There have been similar incidents in the past in Greece involving people taking photos of military aircraft, air bases etc. It's illegal in Greece to photograph military property, and if you do so arrest is likely. With Arma being a military game, my guess is these guys were doing exactly this, and should have known better.
Really? Every Real Estate Developer does the same thing in Greece, so that they can deduct the vacation from their taxes.
Usually they also invite local people to dinner to ask them how they like their own houses, then they can also deduct the restaurants.
That's where the money comes from, Greeks, from us taxpayers!
But I guess the military has a bit of a paranoiac streak everywhere.
If it was in the US, I would say the Patriot Act. There is a Patriotikoú Nómou in Greece?
Grey's Law: Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.
Greece often arrests people for taking photos of things which may have some public security interest. They arrest plane spotters from time to time and it sometimes reaches the British news.
It's not really very interesting except to note that photography isn't really a fundamental human right and, outside the US and to a lesser extent the UK, you need to mind local law. If the business concerned didn't even do this little bit of research then I question how good the game is going to be - but the gap between reality and fantasy gets ever wider.
Specially before taking pictures and videos of military installations. It doesn't matter if it's for a video game, you just don't take pictures of military bases without the military getting paranoid about it.
...on Operation Flashpoint, all I can say is....LET EM GO!!!!"
Seriously, OFP was a groundbreaking game in that it was the first real attempt to simulate a real battlefield experience. Given the series' focus on realism, I have no doubt that these guys were simply doing prep work for the next version of Arma.
Perhaps they should have called ahead...
I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
Documenting military installations is illegal in every country.
The Government of Greece does not permit the photographing of military installations; violators are subject to arrest. So they were arrested. Not really surprising.
I'll remember not to take my camera if I do a tour of Greece for vacation.
Busting the developers out of jail
They were taking photographs of a military installation that they intended to reproduce inside Arma III. That almost certainly means moderately detailed shots of buildings, security measures, and military personal, which is illegal in some (most? all?) countries.
Note: in the US, you can take pictures of aircraft or historical buildings, but not restricted areas. The point is to prevent surveillance intended to find weaknesses in security that can be exploited, aka "casing the joint". Pretty standard practice in the military. They should have definitely have asked for permission first.
"None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
So if I was there as a tourist, would I get arrested?
Or is somehow putting your island into a video game now sedition or something?
TFA is pretty slim, but I'm having a hard time imagine what law was broken.
TFA is not thin at all. It states that the men were caught with photographs of military installations. I would wager that most countries have laws against photographic military bases, and I'm not surprised that Greece do. This was just a really stupid thing to do.
of a news story I read last year. The commuter railroad line in lower New York that commutes from the burbs to the city has an annual contest for most interesting photo taken of their trains and/or stations. Last years competition saw a guy arrested for taking photos of the train by the railroad's own police force.
Now, unless these guys were taking pictures of military bases or locations, then its most likely a huge miscommunication such as the railroad contest.
They tend to be jumpy about photographers near military installations. (they still seem to anticipate a Turkish invasion at any moment)
Like the plane-spotters they arrested 11 years ago.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1953654.stm
Well, with all the austerity going on there, they must be really bored, sort of how the computers on Magrathea take potshots at passing spacecraft. I mean, c'mon, like actual spies are going to stand there obviously taking snapshots. Have they not see a James Bond film? Spies have cameras hidden in their hats and genitals.
And, besides, if a photo of your installation renders it vulnerable, yer doin' it wrong. Unless the military base has a soul... maybe the camera is stealing the military base's soul?
The article claims they were photographing military installations. That could be anything from a snapshot that happens to include a military base to skirting the border of the thing and taking photos from every conceivable angle to get pictures of things clearly meant not to be public to actually wandering around the installation photographic everything in sight.
The first one shouldn't cause anyone any concern. The second one I could see as being something a government could legitimately seek to limit, but I'd hope that the penalty would be limited to confiscating the images. The third could reasonably be treated as criminal if the installation isn't meant to be public. I have a feeling that if details come out they're going to be uncomfortably between one and two.
Surely if it were dissolved then it would turn into an EU solution.
I mean c'mon, I can't imagine there are a lot of big secrets they are trying to protect.
Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
Wouldn't it be easier (and safer) just to remember not to go to Greece?
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
I am a Greek - those 2 people are stupid! ... They don't know English, German, French, or all the other languages in the signs with the "NO PHOTOS" ... the fucking picture of the camera in the circle with the X how they can't understand it ... (OR RESPECT IT). ... Turkey!), is one of the first, if not the first, target.
They don't know Greek
The Greek police arrested them for taking photos of military installations, and they confessed that they had the photos (claiming it was for enhancing the next version of the game !!!).
This island, in case of war with our beloved neighbor (yes
It is not the first time this happens - many tourists (but even some Greeks) find interesting all that military staff on the island, and every year some of them get "arrested", only to be left few hours later.
They will be OK.
No matter if the laws of a country make sense to you or not you have to obey them or you know.. you will get arrested! Actually I am Greek and that's one of the reasons why I left Greece.
On the bright side they got free publicity. If I were them I would put the project to kickstater to cash out the publicity now.
I figured I'd take a lookie at what all you can get from sat imagery commercially on Google Maps. Now, it says Myrina Police were involved on the island of Lemnos. Looking nearby there, I don't see anything screaming military installation. If you look, 'maybe, at : 39.867707,25.066209 (copy paste into google maps) is the base? It's close enough to town that local Police would have possibly been involved faster than MPs. If they were just looking for topography, layout, etc, than what I just took 3 minutes to do, and a little creativity can go a LONG way. Like others have said... perhaps calling ahead would have been a wise move.
This has happened before. A group of British plane spotters were convicted of spying and sentenced to 3 years in jail. It doesn't seem to have occured to the Greek military that real spies will be a little more discrete in their methods.
BBC news article
being greek, i've read some of the original articles. The problem is, they were taking photographs and videotaping active military bases. I'm pretty sure, the guys are not spies but gathering intelligence on foreign military installations constitutes spying in most of the countries i know
Or rather, it would be a solution of Greece in EU.
Although I have to wonder about how well the EU works as a solvent... they don't seem particularly solvent to me...
This was just a really stupid thing to do.
No, the really (and only) stupid thing was getting caught.
Ezekiel 23:20
Most of the commentators here are speaking out of their asses. Let me tell you somethings, being greek and all.
First of all ,Limnos is one of the Greek islands that is very close to Turkey. There have been a lot of incidents in the past there. Maybe the whole point of the clashes were moot, maybe not, but i can't blame the officials for being extra carefull.
Secondly, personally i believe that the guys did not mean harm. But, they were photographing and videotaping active military camps. Sure there's satellite photos of everything on the island on google maps, but gathering intelligence on military installations is one of the most basic espionage actions. If that's not spying, i don't know what is.
Finally, for all those talking about tourists and tourist activities, that's a whole lot of hors*shit. Next time you decide to come for vacations, try to stay at the beach. The military bases are off limits.
If this were Long Island, they would be in Gitmo by now.
Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number
Greek Island lover here (to the point my wife and I were married on Santorini two and a half weeks after 9/11/01 but that's another story). We haven't been back in 4 years but every time beforehand we were greeted with signs at the Santorini airport telling one that photography wasn't much of a welcome activity. Seems that portions of it doubles as a military base... Same thing near any communications arrays or radio towers (which were fenced off); BIG signs, stern language warning against photography. The locals would take it a step further and inform you that it wasn't all that smart to loiter in those areas, unless one had a penchant for confrontation with guards that liked to make tourists frown and scamper quickly in other directions. Slightly overkill of a response in my opinion...but that's just me.
Greece bonds are weak but slow-moving - in economic jargon, "slippery".
And, contrary to Art.3(3) TEU, everyone else has a low rate of interest.
killing mod slip of the fingers....
I know someone who does scientific work on Limnos. The island is right on the border with Turkey. Let's just say the Greeks are *very* sensitive about activities there, and it can be a huge hassle in seemingly innocuous, rural parts of the island when doing fieldwork. If they're hassling well-documented scientists doing non-military-interest work in rural parts of the island, then, yes, they're going to hassle tourists taking pictures of the wrong places too, especially if you happen to be taking pictures of anything directly military-related.
If this were in the US, they'd surely being be detained and become permanent residents of guantanamo bay. Seeing as how their Czechs and getting footage of a military base, they'd sure be instantly classified as terrorists.
http://theworkaround.com/
I'm going to go with "this should be common sense NOT to do this without local government approval and fore knowledge in today's charged political climate."
It should be ESPECIALLY obvious since this is a war/battle/fighting simulation where the setting is a specific (not imaginary/fantasy) location being simulated.
I feel sorry for the people who were arrested -- they were probably not the decision makers. If they were the decision makers, they deserve what they got. If they are not the decision makers, whatever trouble they experience should be the basis of a law suit against the decision makers for being stupid and negligent.
Its not just Greece - I remember hearing similar things when travelling around South America. It kinda seems funny since these countries dont exactly have cutting edge military equipment. Im surprised that Greece can even afford a military!
As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a reference to Godwin's Law approaches 1
They actually are spies. Because that's what they do, make plausible cover stories for what they are doing.
Hold tourists hostage; collect the ransom.
>>>photography isn't really a fundamental human right
Sunlight is a gift from Nature to all living things. It belongs to everyone, and the government has no authority to ban the People from using that which nature has given freely. Furthermore: Capturing that sunlight with your eye is another fundamental right given by nature.
It matters not that the recording has evolved from using your brain, or an artistic sketch on paper, to capturing photons on a sensitive film. A photographer has the same right to capture sunlight as the artist or tourist did in the 1800s.
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
This is where you see the level of ingenuity....being that they are developers, they forgot that they could have saved a whole lot of time and effort and traveling expenses, and just used google's streetview!
Illegal eh? Hey Greece: ever hear of Google?
What's that? No, we will not spot you airfare to come over here and arrest Larry and Sergei. And don't even try to mail that wooden horse to Mountain View.
In any case, they now have a reference for goon behavior they can also include in the game.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Nature is not a sentient being and it does not gift anything to anyone.
whatever trouble they experience should be the basis of a law suit against the decision makers for being stupid and negligent.
They are not Americans, mind you.
Ezekiel 23:20
>>>Note: in the US, you can take pictures of aircraft or historical buildings, but not restricted areas. The point is to prevent surveillance intended to find weaknesses in security that can be exploited, aka "casing the joint". Pretty standard practice in the military.
In the U.S. the courts have ruled again-and-again that people may not be forbidden from recording that which is in public view. ("Per the first amendment citizens have a right to record the activities of their government officials in public areas." and "There is no expectation of privacy when in public view.") It is why places like Area 51 are surrounded by miles and miles of "buffer zone" so nobody can get close enough to see the place.
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
So if I was there as a tourist, would I get arrested?
Or is somehow putting your island into a video game now sedition or something?
TFA is pretty slim, but I'm having a hard time imagine what law was broken.
This shouldn't be all that surprising. I'm not familiar with Greek law but in the US one can only be certain that photographing a military installation is legal if one has written authorization from the base commander. See here. Speaking from personal experience, if one were to stop on US Route 2 heading through North Dakota, photograph one of the Minuteman nuclear missile launch facilities just a few yards off the road, a visit from Minot Airforce Base security is quite likely. Again, speaking from personal experience, these security personnel have brand new shiny M-4s (not those beat up ones from the sandbox) and a .30 cal machine gun mounted on their HUMVEE. If one were to continue photographing, this is once again from personal experience, they will call the sheriff's deputy (who happens to be a serious hottie) and she will threaten arrest for disorderly conduct.
My guess is that the Minuteman launch facilities are considered off limits. They have signs which say "Restricted Area" and federal statute considers these areas off limits in terms of photography. According to statute, it seems that even photographing these area from a distance, such as while standing on a publicly traveled way such as US Route 2, is likely prohibited. The signs on the nuclear launch facilities say they will shoot you if you actually climb the fence. There are hundreds of these facilities across northwest North Dakota. It seems to me that the sheer number of launch facilities would make it difficult for a tourist to photographically document their vacation to beautiful North Dakota.
I don't see why it's surprising that other countries have similar laws in place
I think suspending Greece would make more sense.
It's illegal in every country. If you don't get arrested in other countries, then they're either incompetent or idiots.
Take a few pictures deep underwater W to SW of Santorini and see what happens if/when you are caught.
Greece has fairly high military spending compared to the size of its economy even pre-collapse. They were doing an arms race with Turkey but I have no idea how that's developing with the country's current financial problems.
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Howso?
It is a fundamental human write to write whatever I wish. It is a fundamental human right to draw whatever I wish. It is a fundamental human right to remember whatever I wish.
Consider a hypothetical photo-realistic artist with extraordinary visual recall. He can stand at some location, and then go home a draw what he remembers seeing with great accuracy. No state can legitimately outlaw him from doing so.
How can the state then legitimately outlaw me from using a tool to accomplish the same thing?
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
In the USA they can arrest you for taking pictures of a courthouse. http://www.pixiq.com/article/cop-detains-man-for-photographing-federal-courthouse In the USA your rights are "god given", in the rest of the world they are given out by government or taken away as they want.
they will call the sheriff's deputy (who happens to be a serious hottie) and she will threaten arrest for disorderly conduct.
So what, you're encouraging us to go to North Dakota and photograph the missile launch facilities from US Route 2?
Besides, we all know that's just for show, and the real missiles are underneath Manhattan.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
Do you really think they could afford THAT postage??
bickerdyke
on the Free the Arma 2 Campaign!
Hope they aren't in the critical path of getting that game finished - been waiting for it since last year
Who knew?
1) Hypothetically remembering something perfectly;
2) Hypothetically making perfectly photorealistic drawings;
3) Taking a photograph.
It seems to me that only the first would be covered unconditionally by a fundamental human right as understood by international law. Consider:
- ECHR Art.8: freedom of thought;
- it wouldn't be admissible under Anglo-Saxon criminal law: there is no crime without actus reus, and there is "No punishment without law" (Art.7 ECHR).
The second would be covered under freedom of expression with qualification. Consider Art.10(2) ECHR exceptions for, inter al., "national security, [...], the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence".
The third may be covered by freedom of expression but includes operation of a recording device which may be treated separately.
Czechs and getting footage of a military base, they'd sure be instantly classified as terrorists.
Eh? The Czech Republic is an honored member of NATO. The U.S. has already sworn to shed its own blood and spend its own treasury to defend it. One NATO member spying on another is none of the U. S. 's business. Hell, one NATO member at war with another is almost none of the U. S.'s business, except for the diplomatic pressure to encourage them to stop.
Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
Right. You can take photos of restricted areas, but only from outside said restricted areas.
Nonetheless, I've seen scary "you can't photograph this" signs on military base entrances in the US, and I'm sure they'd still harass you if they saw you doing it.
The German court will issue a ruling tomorrow that may "break the camels back" on the Greek issue of debt repayments.
According to Greek media, the devs arrested had recordings of:
* An MM-40 Exocet Block II installation (anti-ship missile)
* The 130th Battle Squadron
* A radar installation
* Army base and barracks.
Media report that the military authorities were particularly concerned that the data captured from the devs showed no only the position of these installations and the type of equipment they contained, but also things like access routes, alternative routes, fuel depots etc.
It is also common knowledge that Greece's primary foe in the area, Turkey, uses spies who are never Turkish citizens. Most commonly, Turks use agents from the Netherlands.
It matters not that the recording has evolved from using your brain, or an artistic sketch on paper, to capturing photons on a sensitive film.
Apparently, it does.
Did you even read the article you linked to? The subject of the article did *not* get arrested. He was detained. That is more akin to being pulled over for speeding than being arrested for espionage.
they will call the sheriff's deputy (who happens to be a serious hottie) and she will threaten arrest for disorderly conduct.
Are you prepared for a wave of lonely geeks photographing your silo, just to get rough handled by a hot deputy? You better be.
BAM! Aww take that Greece! It's funny because they're poor!
Oh. Don't look like that. Here's a quarter, go buy a house in Greece!
BAM! Oh! The crowd goes wild!
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Seriously hottie got my attention. Got an address?
Wuddooeyeno? IITYWYBMAD? Like nuts? eclecticallyincorrect.com
And every NATO country spies on every other NATO member.
And any country that doesn't deserves the invasion it soon receives.
My sister opened a computer store in Hawaii. She sells C shells by the seashore.
Hello,
we can confirm that two Bohemia Interactive employees, our colleagues and friends, were arrested during their holiday trip to Lemnos. They visited the island with the sole purpose of experiencing the island's beautiful surroundings.
Since its establishment in 1999, Bohemia Interactive has created games based only upon publicly available information. We always respect the law and we've never instructed anybody to violate the laws of any country. The same is true for Arma 3.
Currently, all our effort goes towards supporting the guys over there, as well as their friends and families affected by this difficult situation. We sincerely hope that this is an unfortunate misunderstanding of their passion as artists and creators of virtual worlds.
On behalf of the Bohemia Interactive team,
Marek Spanel, CEO
>Eh?
Yes, the OP is right.
> The Czech Republic is an honored member of NATO.
Czechosolovakia has won no honors in NATO. http://tinyurl.com/9v6ec6b
> The U.S. has already sworn to shed its own blood and spend its own treasury to defend it.
The U.S. has not sworn to shed its own blood or spend its own treasury to defend it. http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.htm
>One NATO member spying on another is none of the U.S.'s business,
Then in that case your previous statement falls. Either it IS the U.S. and other NATO member states' business in which case it IS the U.S.'s business OR it's none of anyone else's business in which case the whole falacious comment about blood and treasury (false as it is) is inapplicable.
>except for the diplomatic pressure...
Yeah you made that up for your convenience. I've shown you the NATO charter. Please
demonstrate where it says any of that.
Such rabid conflictory justification of "The US Must Shed Blood and Treasury" but oh wait "It's none of the US business" but wait "The US should exert diplomatic pressure."
I see the horns waggling and I'm not stepping in your words.
E
Greece has a long history of prosecuting planespotters for espionage. In 2002 there was a fairly high profile case of 12 British and 2 Dutch nationals, who were evenrually acquitted because they were just that: planespotters (and not spies).
In any case, even in this day and age (or should I say: especially in this day and age) it is not a good idea to go to military bases and start photographing equipment. The authorities might take exception to that.
Especially don't do it outside your own country where you don't know local laws and customs. These two guys are just plain stupid and should have known better.
You right to life can be taken away by the President of the United Fucking States, any time he wants. Wake up! You don't live in a nice country any more -- and it's your fault as a voter for allowing your country to degrade so much.
I don't think the inside of military base counts as a 'public space'..
Many who deserve blindness receive sunlight, and many who deserve sunlight are blind.
photography isn't really a fundamental human right
What if my memory is that good and when I return back to my office I make a drawing of what I saw? Are we going to prohibit *seeing* a military base or something else?
I don't know if photography is a human right, but I know that photographers *have* rights.
Don't know how it is in America, but in Portugal it is illegal to photograph with security cameras etc, buildings and property that are just on the other side of the street or right next to you (that has to be very carefully studied with surveillance cameras or their tape won't be valid in court).
A tourist taking photos on a city street and getting a few houses on the background, wont be hearing anything from anyone. But someone taking photos of a private owned house with detail will be talked to.
I've been also told to not photograph inside of commercial shops and shopping malls.
Diplomat's homes, military buildings and similar buildings are even more protected.
You have some human rights but those can't invade other people's rights, that's how we see it. And the right to security and privacy is one that cannot be invaded, as such if your actions seem to be to directly invading some of these rights, you will be noticed.
Also Greece is a somewhat cold war with their neighbor Turkey. So espionage is taken very seriously by them.
It is the word after all.
"Cursed is he who rises early in the morning..." Isiah 5:11
Creep.
"There is no such thing as bad publicity"
- Brendan Behan
Who says they didn't know better?
blindly antisocialist = antisocial
That's why cops are confiscating cameras in public places and forbid photographing and video recording in the U.S.
You have a point, but it's still legal to take those pictures, and once you get to court, you at least don't get sent to prison for it.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
If you can see critical stuff on a military base just by creeping around the perimeter then it's a pretty shity base. If someone can learn something by watching your changing of the guard that will permit them to penetrate your facility, then you are incompetent shitwads and don't deserve to be guarding a shoebox. Etc.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
....so you shot the missile but you did not shoot the deputy?
Czech membership has nothing to do with it since the Czech government (probably) didn't sanction this "espionage"
Without that backing you are just a rogue citizen, and thus qualify for labelling as a terrorist.
If the Czech goverment WAS behind it, and not just Czech citzens, that would change things and it might be considered an act of war or something. But maverick citizens acting without state backing are not immune from being labelled as terrorists.
You see though, sunlight bouncing off of something else makes that imagery a derived work of the something else, so this is actually the Greeks slapping the cuffs on them for copyright infringement, and using "national security" as a cloak to hide their status as a mafiaa lap dog.
In other news, temperatures in hell are on the rise again.
Enough crap said by some so, can you post on flickr or such, the pictures *you* have taken of a protected military base in *your* own country with *your* legal name next to in bold letters? We will make sure you prove your case in due course. Then, you might be able to come around to comment laws of other countries. As regards Greece, these guys missed the scenery obviously, so bad luck for them.
>>>Nature is not a sentient being
Didn't say it was. But nevertheless nature has given us many things. Such as our bodies. And sunlight.
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
If this were in the US, they'd surely being be detained and become permanent residents of guantanamo bay. Seeing as how their Czechs and getting footage of a military base, they'd sure be instantly classified as terrorists.
Yeah, because that's totally happened like a thousand times already. They're throwing peope into Guantanamo for just about anything these days. Or they aren't.
by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
Sure. I sympathize with the sentiment to some extent, but even idiots deserve some privacy.
Address? Sure. South side of US Route 2 in front of Minuteman Launch Facility J-4.
English fail. What you said amounts to saying that "nature is a sentient being". I know you don't think so, but it does. Just accept that you do not understand the language as well as you think you do. Unless you enjoy all these misunderstandings.
No it's not. You can photograph military property in the United States.
You can't photograph certain objects or certain areas, but in general you wouldn't be allowed inside those areas or near those objects to begin with unless you had clearance to do so.
I've got a photograph of what was the Network Control Center at Kadena Air Base hanging on the wall (it's a group shot of my coworkers when I was stationed there, presented to me by our shop superintendant, a Senior Master Sergeant). I've got several more I took around the base in a scrapbook somewhere. Just outside the base there are small platforms that camera crews can climb to film jets taking off.
Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach either, do tech support.