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Ask Slashdot: How Much Is a Fun Job Worth?
Nicros writes "I have the good fortune to be a lead software engineer in a really fun company. The culture and people are great, and while the position has some down sides (distance from home, future opportunities), in general I'm quite happy there, and I wasn't looking for a new job. Now, I've had an offer to go be a software director for a new company. The pay is more than 10% better, the location is closer to home, and the people seem nice. I would get to grow a new group as I saw fit, following some regulatory guidelines. Problem is, I just can't decide what to do, and I'm not even sure why I can't decide. Maybe it has to do with leaving a job that I like (something I've never done) that just doesn't sit well with me. Maybe it's fear. I'm 40, so maybe it's just getting older and appreciating stability more. But then again, I have my current position dialed in, and could use a change. I have ambition, and my current company has made every effort to work with me to develop my career — probably more in the business development side, but that could be fun too. That career path is just more vague and longer-term than jumping right into a director position, with no guarantee that it would even work out. In the new company, software is not what this company does primarily; not many people would use the software, so the appreciation level would be much lower than my current position. Has anyone made a transition like this in software? How did it work out? Did you stay or did you go? Why? What's more important, the people and culture at a job, or the opportunities that job presents for future growth?"
A fun place to work is, well... fun! But if you aren't happy (pay, commute, promotion, etc) then you aren't happy and soon you'll start to resent the fun place.
Take my advice, find a job you are happy with and make it the fun place!
crazy dynamite monkey
It's the devil you know vs. the devil you don't. That's the hesitation, I'll bet.
Flip a coin!
I've changed jobs several times to find one that was more fun or closer to home. I've never had to choose between more fun and a shorter commute. I'd think about the commute and the entertainment value well before I thought about the money.
Perhaps the reason you are reluctant to change is that there is something you don't like about the new company. Nothing you can objectively point to, but some subtle attitude or cultural issue.
Don't forget that you spend a major part of your life there. Unless this is an "up or out" kind of situation, stay. 10% more money is not that much. And building up a team comes with a serious risk of failure, often by factors outside of your control.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
This one could be what swings it. If the new job allows you more life outside work then go for it.
Unless they are paying you drastically more (20 or 30%), stay with the place you enjoy. Hell, you could just move closer to your current job.
It is hard to find a job you enjoy with people you like to work with. If this new place has problems, personal as well as business side, you are screwed. It will be hard to find a "fun" job again.
Funny, I'm in the exact same situation...I do not know what to do or what I will decide when the job is posted...
Money...otherwise, why would you bother to go to a job at all?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
It all comes down to whether you think you will be happy with 10% more pay.
I've made similar leaps before for much greater increases and found the new company had some stuff under the carpet that I couldn't see until I was working there. If you choose to jump, jump carefully.
Also mind that you seem to be very happy with you current job and they seem to want to work with you. You *might* (be careful with this, use your own judgement here) tell your current boss that you have an offer in hand for 10% more and you are conflicted about the decision. You current boss *might* be willing to consider a pay nudge to keep you.
But of course, if you do this and get fired for looking over the fence, it is you own damned fault.
And so is career growth and a shorter commute. On the minus side there's uncertainties of many kinds (job definition, future of the new company, potential happiness at new job).
You need to figure out how much these things are worth to you. And only you can do that.
At 40, you should know by now that it isn't what your reward is, but how much you are enjoying it.
If a job offered me a 100% raise, but I had to commute an hour each way, I'd say no. My current commute is 7 minutes. That would mean I lose almost 2 hours of personal time in the evening every single day, and that is not worth doubling my salary to me. However, other people have different priorities for what they are looking to achieve.
If being closer to home and earning a little more money is more important to you and will bring you a greater sense of satisfaction and fulfillment than your current situation, then make the change. But if money isn't that important to you, you are "close enough" to home, and you are really happy at your current position, be sure you aren't just moving because "the grass is greener."
I've been there several times. Tell your current company about your offer, they will counter if they appreciate you as much as you say they do. Finish the negotiation process before you try to sort out your feelings about which position is best. If they don't your decision is made for you (you can't stay and still have any cred' if they don't try to keep you).
Can you provide for your family? Are you making enough to have a domicile that is to your liking? Are you making enough to eat the kinds of food you want to eat? Do you have the gadgets, widgets, and doodads that occupy your time when you're not at work.
If so, better pay is pointless. Money isn't happiness, it's a means for survival. Certainly, there are things that we enjoy that cost money, but it sounds like you can afford those things. If the difference is "with job A, I can have a PS3 or an xBox, and with job B, I can have a PS3 _and_ an xBox" or "with job B, I can afford an extra car," then why turn away from a job you truly enjoy?
For me, a good job is worth 10000.
Somebody with those kinds of doubts doesn't really want to move. It's OK to stick with what you know. Just give yourself permission to be more concerned with security. Really. It's OK. A lot of people would love to be in your position. Yeah, somebody else might take job B, run with it, and make senior VP. They have no doubts; but if you try to do the Evil Kneival jump with doubts, you're gonna miss the ramp. When the jump is right, you won't even think about looking back, and you'll hit it just right.
...I choose C. Seriously, find a job that is closer to home and more fun. Those jobs do exist.
It has been said that 63% of all statistics are made up
Take the new money and be sure to burn your bridges on your way out the door.
What doesn't kill you only delays the inevitable
No can tell you with 100% certainty. That includes you. I'm pretty sure you know that, but I'm stating it so you think about it.
If you have a family, the value of a short commute now may mean a WHOLE hell of a lot 20 years from now when the kids are gone, or, deity forbid, someone gets sick. Take the long view if your'e currently stable and think that will remain the case.
My advice is stupid sounding, but it actually works. Make a calculation out of it. Usually, I put pay as a 1:1 value and base things around that. Make a spreadsheet, think of ways to enhance the current job. Think about the satisfaction vs risk of the new. Try to fiddle numbers out of it.
Many times, it's not really the numbers that make it clear, but the thought you put into the numbers. :)
Ambition means that you have to take risks and dive headfirst into difficult situations. Are you prepared to deal with the toll it will take on you, mentally and physically? Is your family prepared as well? (Don't kid yourself about isolating the your work and home life; unless you have the patience of a saint, problems at work *will* jump the fence and follow you home.) Will you still think it was worthwhile even if it doesn't pan out?
Personally, I'd take a 1/3 pay cut for a job where I was guaranteed to be happier without batting an eyelash.
I worked at my college's pool hall for a couple months. It was a great way to socialize, but paid just minimum wage. Definitely not the sort of place anyone's expected to work long term.
PS: I don't reply to ACs.
How far (time, distance) from work now?
How far (time, distance) from new place?
Are you willing to move closer to your current job?
Do you have other people to whom you are obligated that have commitments near where you are now? (schools, other jobs, family)
My bias: Happiness at work (job satisfaction, challenge, belief in the work, being around good people) is more important than wage. I don't say this as someone who has already made a bunch of money. I'm 29 and making under 50k in an area with high cost of living. I also live only 3 miles from my office and bike commute. I would need an offer of at least a 40% increase in pay WITH all the job satisfaction, challenge, and belief in my work to *consider* changing my place of employment. I have no kids and have had the same partner for a decade.
It sounds like you've determined that the positions are close in desirability (or you wouldn't be asking this question). Since you have nothing to lose, you might as well negotiate harder for what you want -- more pay, vacation, or other benefits. Perhaps this might push you over the top for the director position. Moving from a lead developer to a director position for 10% more salary seems low. I would imagine that you could ask for a 25% bump
I took a course decades ago that mentioned 'Hygeine needs' - google that. From that sort of thing...
Herzberg asked people about times when they had felt good about their work. He discovered that the key determinants of job satisfaction were Achievement, Recognition, Work itself, Responsibility and Advancement.
He also found that key dissatisfiers were Company policy and administration, Supervision, Salary, Interpersonal relationships and Working conditions.
So - more salary isn't as important a thing as other stuff. If you're underpaid (or think you are), you're unhappy. If you are paid enough you're happy. More than enough isn't a great lift.
I tend to agree - I could earn a helluva lot more in the US or Europe - meantime I'm enjoying low-stress NZ while we raise the kid and walk beaches with the dog. And I earn enough.
"The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes" - Winston Churchill
This all comes down to if you want to play it safe (stability motivates you), or if you want to roll the dice and gamble (change motivates you).
I speak from experience. I made a risky choice in 2000 and joined a startup, quitting a secure job at IBM that I would (in all likelihood) still have today. The job I went to paid better, was a lot of fun, exciting, challenging, and in the end a failure. My career has never fully recovered, and I am certain that had I stayed at IBM I would be finincially way further ahead than I am now. By all reasonalble criteria, I should regret my decision.
Yet I *had* to do it: I crave re-invention and change. I wouldn't be happy stuck in the douldrums of a stagnant work environment. I work for myself now, but I have no problems envisioning myself going back to being a cog in a big machine again. I'm open to, and embrace, the possibilities.
But as for you, you have to make that decision for yourself. The operative word about your job is not "fun", it's "happiness". You're in a fortunate position of being satisfied with your career, so you need to decide if you will regret not taking the opportunity to do more (and risk that you will fail). Good luck.
Look at the tomato! Isn't it sad? He can't dance! Poor tomato!
The conventional wisdom says never take a counteroffer. Your loyalty is questioned so you'll be the first to go during layoffs, they'll take the pay bump out of your future raises, and other people will eventually find out. I've also heard about people taking a counteroffer and not actually getting one... by the time you realize this, the other position is filled.
If you were gettting 30%+ more pay, then yes this would be a serious discussion.
You said you are quite happy where you work. You apparently don't realize yet how lucky you are. The rest of us slobs have to work for ingrateful management along with lazy, incompetent coworkers for probably less than what you make.
It works not because it settles the question for you, but because in that brief moment when the coin is in the air, you suddenly know what you are hoping for.
The people and culture were worth more. You spend such a large amount of your waking time on the job, its miserable not to like it 100%. Even if you have to sacrifice advancement, or commute, or whatever. There were times when I commuted 25 miles farther each way for half the bennies, just because of the team.
Conversely if you can't stand a place because of the atmosphere or management style, or whatever, then it doesn't matter if they're next door and offer a 200% premium... it just won't be worth it, and you won't last very long there.
Been there, done that. A few times no less.
C|N>K
Director ? And u're still thinking ?
Afraid of success are we ?
If u're as good as u seem to be .. There should be nothing to fear.
Will open up the possibility of running your own fun unit in the future !
All the best !
Since I'm in the other situation. I make a decent (80-90k) salary but my current job is driving me nuts. Even though the commute is good the time at the job just isn't worth it anymore. I made less at my previous company (60-70k) and had a longer commute but if I could go back there I'd drop this place in heart beat. (Since that amount of money is enough for me since I'm single and I was actually happy with the people at the old place.)
Well, these kind of opportunities are how we can best expand our skill sets, and often times are how we grow in our careers and as people. However, it's great that you work for a company that has taken an interest in you and helped you to grow your career. That's a lucky thing. Not an easy decision at all, but since this isn't a "grass is greener choice" maybe just look at it as I've said above - about your evolution as a person.
Unless they are paying you drastically more (20 or 30%), stay with the place you enjoy. Hell, you could just move closer to your current job.It will be hard to find a "fun" job again. A HREF=”http://fullpornoizle.pro//”>Porno izle daha önce okumadnz Sex Hikayeleri
10% raise means 10% more hookers means 10% more fun!
"Software is not what this company does primarily..."
Huge red flag. Stay away unless you have an overwhelmingly compelling reason to move.
... a pithy soul.
Where they pointed out people were happiest at either 75K or 85K. I can't remember which. The reason was that above that salary level you pretty much have enough money to meet all your important needs and the extra money was pretty much worthless since you basically have to find excuses to spend it on. So I guess one question would be "Are you making enough to cover your needs, IE what can you do with the extra money?" If you're in the situations where you really can't find anything to spend it on then I wouldn't worry about the money.
Did you know 80 to 90% of the moderators on slashdot wouldn't recognize a troll even if one dragged them under a bridge.
For me, without kids or a mortgage, and with a significant other that will support whatever wage I earn, I can make job satisfaction the primary, and in fact only reason for having a job.
However that would change if I had kids or debt or a dependent. Making sure the people you're responsible for are taken care of is your #1 priority. Being fiscally responsible is your #2 priority. Fit "fun" in after those are taken care of.
So, you know, make your life choices wisely if you think you'd like to have more fun.
This is ridiculous, unless you like work for the mafia or something. Maybe there is some lunatic employers out there that hold their positions like a girlfriend but most realize that people (especially talented ones) might be tempted by outside offers. The only time I could think of that a normal employer would do stuff like that is if you are obviously leveraging the new position to twist their arm. A little honesty goes a long way, if he brought this question to his current employer they would respect the honesty and heads up most likely. I've left a couple companies who have countered and they would gladly take me back tomorrow.
If the present job keeps your skills current then the 10% pay difference may not be worth the hassle and extra hours. On the other hand if you're just showing up, slacking in the clubhouse while your skills slip away you're going to wake up one way with out the fun job, fun pay check or fun job prospects.
Happiness = (Location) x (Pay) x (entertainment value or pleasantness of what you are doing)
try to normalize all inputs to a scale of 0 to 2, yielding a result ranging from 0 to 8. You will quickly see that any one thing can kill the whole deal (multiplying by 0 tends to do that), and that some things can only compensate for inadequacies to a limited extent. So... in a practical sense, this quantitative answer to such qualitative things as job pay, location, and how much you like what you are doing, might help make the analysis comparison easier. Tweaking this to fit your specific situation makes all the sense in the world. Good Luck!
be sure to compare 401k, bonuses, health benefits, perks. not to mention annuallized commute time!
all other things equal, 10% more pay is not really worth jumping ship IMO. you're talking single digit or low teens thousands a year.
I think it's going to come down to whether you want to be a manager or a lead engineer. Being a manager / director has additional responsibilities (having to do reviews, decide salaries and bonuses, hire / fire) compared to a lead engineer. Only you can decide whether this is something you want to take on. I work for a big company, and don't know anybody at a director level who doesn't have several people reporting to them, so unless their titles are way out of whack, you should expect that you'll be growing that team as soon as you join.
Personally, I don't like the "software is not what [the new] company does primarily" part. I like to be in the group that makes the company. If I were at Proctor and Gamble, I'd want to be in marketing. Since I'm at a software company, Engineering is where it's at.
You think to make him realize that he really likes the friends and job at the old place?
I say:
#1 - stability - which position is the most bullet proof? I would guess the old one.
#2 - fun (but the shorter commute of the new job counts as fun)
Unless your commute goes from an hour, down to 10 minutes, a 10% pay raise isn't much. This supposes that you are comfortable and not desperately strapped for cash.
One last pair of things.
- if you stay where you are, consider telling your boss that you had an offer, but like this company. Don't ask for a raise, (say no if asked whether you are bucking for a raise) but accept it if offered later if you think it doesn't make you overpaid (and thus subject to replacement). The good will generated will be worth a lot.
- don't play the new job against the old by asking for a raise because you have an offer. After that they will be looking to replace you when it is convenient for THEM.
Closer to home: Consider every minute commuting as work time, and every dollar spent on gas as after tax wages.
The challenge of something new: That can be a major contributing factor to your happiness, even if the employer isn't any more fun
The risk of taking a new position: You might think you are beloved and stable in your current position, but all it takes is new ownership and even the best workplace can turn into hell, so just because it is nice where you are doesn't guarantee it will stay that way.
Better pay: Yes, it's only %10 more pay, but think about it, they are starting you at that, chances are you have peaked out at your current position, now you have room to grow
No matter what, it could backfire, and be a bad decision, so don't burn your bridges, there is always the possibility of returning if this job doesn't pan out. Either way, Good Luck!
(If at first you don't succeed, do it different next time!)
Outside of academia and tenure, the reality is this: no job is safe and stable. At any point, your company could downside and cut you, or, the company could make a turn for the worse quickly and fail. In either case, you'll be out. The longer you've been at your current job, the less employable you will be. So consider that. Does taking a new job expand your skillset for the better?
Another thing to consider: raises and promotions have gone the way of the dodo. The only way to make more money or upgrade to a better position is to take a new job. You need to look 2 jobs down the road: the one you have is not your last, and it's likely the next one you take will not be either. Each job you take can be an upgrade (you have leverage if you can say "Well, I have ~this~ now, and..." and your the candidate for the job), but staying is most certainly staying at your current level.
When faced with a choice like this, I have always chosen the path that would further advance my career, usually in combination with better pay. It is not that important to me to have fun at work or enjoy it - work is work... I'm not here to screw around, make friends, waste time, or engage in office drama. There are only so many years we have as top-earning grunts to plan for retirement, etc. and I don't plan to waste those on some whimsical notion that I should be having fun all the time. In other words, for me, it is a business decision, not an emotional one. Good luck!
I'm only in my mid 30's, but I'm in the process of finalizing a career change to move to a company half way around the world. My advice to you would be not to listen to anyone on Slashdot. Listen to your heart. 10% more money isn't bad, but you need to consider what effect the new job will have on your happiness and your work-life balance. Leaving a job is a leap of faith. Sometimes you stick the landing and are happy. Other times you are stuck in a place you'd rather not be.
I left a secure and extremely low-paying development/dba where I was the only programmer and got to call all the development shots to work in a dev team for a company that paid me 60% more than I was making at a previous company. In the year and a half I worked there, almost all the company's original founders were purged, we went through three directors of software engineering, two directors of qa, and two head product managers. The UX guy was ran off by a VP who wanted to do the usability themselves. And I had to serve under junior programmers who were only senior in the sense that they had been with the company for years, and every boneheaded thing they wanted to do was rubber-stamped by management. Project management for the desperately needed rewrite of the company's code was given to someone who had never done project management before. At some point development of that core product was transferred to an Indian offshore company to be worked on by programmers not familiar with the project's programming language; of course this didn't matter, because I wasn't doing very well at this company because I wasn't invited meetings where important architectural details were being discussed (which I was nevertheless responsible for implementing even though no one told me about them). The company was owned by a private equity firm, whose goal all along was probably reducing headcount and maximizing short term profit at the cost of large employee turnover and bad code. So looking back at my situation, I'm really not surprised at all that it happened.
Was this experience worth the 60% pay increase? I supposed I learned how to not run a software company, which might be valuable in the future. But my advice is to look for warning signs that might indicate that the new company might be extremely dysfunctional. Warning signs like the company being owned by a private equity firm, or all the founders of the business who made it great being purged, or lots of turnover among senior engineers and a dev mix made up of recent college grads and mediocre lifers who coast on their seniority. And try to figure out if possible why the previous guy left.
You can't decide because you're working within in your comfort zone right now. You're dialed in, and secure. There's a little bit of fear and anxiety holding you back.
Snap out of it.
Get out of your comfort zone. Embrace the excitement anxiety. The career growth and success will be well worth it.
What are your drivers?
If you enjoy making software, and maybe running a team, then don't switch.
If you enjoy not knowing what's coming, dynamic situations with lots of change, and continually dealing with things that you haven't dealt with before, then change.
The money difference is not a big inducement, I'd say. Especially since you don't say how this new company will be funded - so you may be buying into 6 months of salary at 10% more, and then no job.
If after that you do think you are still interested in the job, it's really important to ask what you will control. If the big decisions are already made, and you are just a caretaker, then think twice as hard. Check how much budget you have. Check the constraints you'd be under. Check when you have to deliver software, and decide how viable it is. And ask for shares. A directorship without ownership is a fantastic way to load legal responsibility onto someone without the benefits of that responsibility. Culture of a company is important, what are your co-directors like? You'll set the tone for the people in your department - if you think they don't fit in, you'll be able to lose them - so that part of culture the culture is less important. The hat you wear as a director is completely different from making software; it's as table-tennis is to riding a bike.
Yep, I've done it. But it absolutely wouldn't be for everyone. Do the things that make you happy.
Several years ago, I took a project lead on a 3 year, 5 man project and it was a success. IMO, management is nice if you've never done it before, but it becomes tedious and you have to deal with silly stuff all the time. You're responsible for what other people do as well. I enjoyed it, and am glad I did it, but if the pay isn't significantly better, I'd rather be coding.
Another anecdote, Early in my career, I was working at a place where I stopped learning anything new and the work was boring and monotonous. The people, for the most part, were nice and easy to get along with. I wanted to leave but was offered a 33% raise to stay and I took it. It made me happy for about 3 months, then I was miserable again. I left for a consulting position that was fun, was closer, paid better and I got to learn new things. After the contract was over, the dot bomb happened and I was outta work for 6 months. I ran outta money and credit and I had to move back home, but found a very challenging job that paid nearly as much. Moral of the story? Money can't buy happiness and you could always loose your shirt when things look great. When things look terrible, it will eventually get better.
I agree completely with the commenters who have advised you to keep the fun. If your present commute is bugging you, consider moving.
One thing I haven't seen is this. You're 40. If the new company folds, you are completely screwed, at least until the economy rebounds.
Where do you see yourself being in 10 years? Do you expect to be doing the same things you are doing now for (roughly) the same inflation-adjusted pay, or do you expect to be managing a large(r) group, or running your own company, or living on a farm in Iowa?
If you find yourself at a job which is not aligned with your long term goals, it's probably time to start looking.
Note that just being offered a new position with better pay is not necessarily a reason to leave your current position immediately, unless what you are being offered works towards where you eventually want to find yourself. However, if being offered a new position with slightly better pay has you asking the question, it's probably time to start looking, even if you're not immediately departing.
I would almost say that you should keep your eyes open all the time, if doing so won't interfere with you doing your current job to the best of your ability, even if you are perfectly happy where you are now.
HA! I'd commit murder to find a job that didn't make me totally miserable or wasn't eventually going to screw me over in some way. If you are happy and have job security and work for people you can trust, stay where you are. You can't put a price on your sanity. It's BAD out there. The extra money is no good if you end up in the nut house or get laid off.
How much shorter is the commute? That alone will add "pay" to the new position. I think a lot of people fail to recognize just how expensive car commuting is. If the new work place is close enough that you can bike, you can really save a lot of money.
These days, when considering what a job pays, you can't just look at the salary. I really recommend reading Your Money Or Your Life . Yeah, the language is kind of mushy and touchy-feely at times, but the general points are important. All for-pay jobs should be considered in terms of their real pay. Which is your salary, minus taxes, minus commuting expenses, minus work incidentals (uniforms or other equipment you personally need to buy), etc etc. Any non-reimbursed expense that you must incur as a result of your job must be subtracted from the advertised salary. IOW, would you spend this money if you didn't have to work? Furthermore, you need to break that real pay into an actual wage, i.e. what is your effective per-hour pay? Take the salary, minus all the expenses I mentioned, and divide by hours spent on work---including your commute, forced breaks, overtime, etc. (So, for example, consider two otherwise identical jobs, but one with different commute times. The one with the longer commute has a lower overall real wage.)
Consider also health insurance benefits. If you're single, it's probably less of an issue. But if you're married and have kids, then it becomes a big deal.
I will say this: I've now had two positions in my career, and in both case I was part of the "expense" structure. In other words, the stuff I worked on was necessary and provided real value to the company, but was not the primary revenue generator. So management views it as an expense, and cost-cutting is the name of the game. How little can we spend and still get the same result? But when you're dealing with a part of the business that is directly responsible for the profits, management tends to be a little more flexible, and willing to take bigger risks. Just something to consider: if you're moving from a position where you work on your company's end product, to one where you are simply part of the "support" structure, you may find the new environment to be frustrating.
FWIW, I was faced with a loosely similar situation: I had a relatively stable job at a big company. It paid a decent wage and I more or less liked it. But from a friend's invitation, I took a chance on a completely new job in a new city at a startup. The startup has been quite successful, and I'm making considerably more money. But I'm not particularly happy with the job itself; not miserable, but it's certainly not something I'd do for free. I stay for the pay. But I don't regret my choice; even if I knew then what I know now, I'd still take the job. The way I look at it, I'm "buying" greater future freedom by sticking with the not-enjoyable-but-high-paying position for now.
My first link in this comment was from Mr Money Mustache, a blog about facilitating early retirement through frugality and saving money. The retirement goal isn't so much of being able to sit around and do nothing, but being financially independent so that you're no longer a wage slave---you can strictly chose what you do based on the fulfillment factor, rather than worrying about putting food on the table. IOW, you can find the job you like so much you'd do it for free.
Do you know anything about the department/group you'd be managing in the new position? What are the people there like? Are they naturally happy and motivated to do good work? Or is it a sweatshop, where your job will be to crack the whip? Are they struggling right now, and just looking for a patsy to take a big fall?
Ultimately it's a personal decision, no matter how many details you provide about each
The red flag for me was,
In the new company, software is not what this company does primarily.
I've always tried to be in companies in which what I did was directly tied to the company's main business. There is an analogy to a river: You want to be in the main stream, not in some backwater, so that when things get tight and money dries up, you're not left high and dry -- as in, a department or division that can be conveniently closed as a "cost reduction," with little (immediate) effect on their main business.
A corollary to this applies to physical locations, too: Remote sites will be closed before corporate headquarters will be, so pay attention to your job's location.
Besides, if you're not in the company's main business, you could develop a fabulous thing, and nobody at your company will appreciate it. (Think Xerox PARC. There are many examples at smaller scales.)
Personal decisions should be personal.
Define "Fun"...we talking clowns and cakes fun at work or strippers and a lot of booze and coke kinda fun?
Counters and accepting them may be more common these days due to the high cost of onboarding new employees but a company RARELY forgets you accepted that counter and you may pay for that raise in more ways than you expect.
http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/outside-voices-careers/2012/03/26/why-you-shouldnt-take-a-counteroffer
The reason you are hesitant is that 10% is too little a bump for going from a Lead to a Director.
It goes:
- developer
- senior/lead developer
- manager
- director
- VP
Each level up should be a 20% increase, so Lead to Directory should be a 44% increase (1.2 times 2). If for example you make $100K as a Lead, you should make $150K as a Director.
Did you remember to tell your prospective employer that you are making %120 of what you are really making? That way, when they say they can only match, but not increase, then your raise is built in.
A formal title or position or delegated power does not imply "leadership". You may be a director with a bigger budget but without buy-in from the people below and above, nothing may get done. The other thing is, the whatever "regulatory guideline" seems to be a yellow flag to me. It seems you have more latitude in your current job and that you're working well. I'm not sure why you think the BizDev path is more vague and longer-term. The other yellow flag is the non-software core business thing. It really doesn't sound like it's the best thing to jump ship. 10% is really marginally better. If another opportunity without those 2 flags and a better raise, then you may consider... Sounds like the ONLY attractive thing is being a director and managing more folks?
""try to normalize all inputs to a scale of 0 to 2""
C'mon this is Slashdot. Given a linear scale, that normalization puts the center infinitely closer to 2 than to 0. You can completely wash a job out with a single zero but you can't get a 100% yes with a single two.
I propose that you use 0 to infinity. If you find that you use either 0 or infinity anywhere, your answer should be obvious, unless you are trying to multiply 0 by infinity.
Every business I've ever worked for has a "no counter offer" policy. Once you're willing to quit, your heart is likely no longer in it for the job you have currently.
A fun job is worth precisely the amount of money you need to live the way you want. Oddly enough, though, so is a crappy job.
Working's about paying the bills; if you do something you love, you're "jobbing" right, but bills are gonna come either way. Like most things in life, it's all about the various types of bastards:
-If you enjoy your job AND are living the way you want, stay there, you lucky bastard.
-If you don't enjoy your job and ARE paying the bills, establish a minimum salary you can accept and then bail on the shitty job like the bastard you are.
-If you have a job (enjoyable or not) that doesn't let you live the way you want, you'll have to find a new job of either type, you poor bastard.
Establish your "necessary salary" threshold, and then go from there. Keep in mind this salary changes based on location. Good luck.
Completely agreed. If you've been there a while you usually have a pretty good sense how "petty" management might be with respect to you seeking opportunities elsewhere and accepting counteroffers.
Personal story: After quite a number of years of meager if non-existant pay increases across the company (even before the recession), and even a few pay cuts, I received a +10% offer from a company composed mostly of some of my former coworkers. When I took the offer to my boss he confided in me that he'd been worried about my low pay level and what it might mean for my future for some time, but given the company's history the past few years he had no way to address it unless something like this happened. The counteroffer was also +10%, and knowing that I really enjoy my work and have a great set of coworkers, as well as job security being a flip of the coin as to which company was the better situation, I took the counteroffer and stayed put.
Shortly thereafter a competitor unexpectedly offered me about an additional +15% to come work for them (they pursued me, and I humored them by interviewing with them, but didn't have serious intentions of switching). I was expecting and prepared for a much lower offer and fully intended to turn it down, but I really wasn't prepared for such a large offer and it totally threw into doubt whether I should stay or go. Unfortunately coming just few months on the heels of the previously mentioned offer my company wasn't prepared to counteroffer, but it did get me face time with people further up the management chain who wanted to talk about why I was unhappy with my current situation and what they could do to make it better for me. Finally being listened to by higher management, able to air my concerns, and with assurances that they'd do right by me as time went on, I turned down the new offer. Sure enough, every year since then I've gotten a healthy bump in pay, and management continues to be open to hearing and addressing my concerns as they can. I'm quite satisfied with how everything turned out.
Change is good for your personal development. New contexts, new situations, new skills, new contacts. So long as you keep on good terms with your current "fun" organization is there any reason to believe that they won't have you back if you don't like the other venture? If there is such strong rapport with those people would they bare you any ill will for trying something else for a change? Are you irreplaceable and would cause tremendous stress and hardship if you left? Do you have shares/ownership of the company that you feel could swell in value by your continued involvement?
Just because you change jobs doesn't necessarily mean you become an enemy or are no longer useful to your old colleagues. You might be able to scout out new clients or opportunities for them in the course of your new job (that do not conflict with your new loyalties). You might encounter some skilled professional that fits exactly what your old crew really needs.
In the simplest most realistic terms, it is a business decision. The #1 person you are fighting for is yourself and your family. In my opinion the creative freedom of being able to help craft a new organization is very attractive to establish the kind of culture you desire. If that organization does not appear to value some of the same things that you do (software) you can be instrumental in helping them see where they might be mistaken.
Sometimes it's obvious that you want or need a change. And sometimes it's not.
So when you can't decide about what to do, it's generally a good idea to ask yourself what it is you could be doing where you could make the biggest contribution, help other people the most, and create the most value for *others*.
Once you remove yourself from the centre of the equation, the answer will probably be much clearer.
In Soviet Russia, all our base are belong to YOU!
This comes from someone who used to change jobs as the offer was made more for variety, switching back an forth many times over a career between technical and technical management.
10% to change seems small to me. Not in the company mainstream seems risky. How stable financially is your current company? How important to you is the commuting distance? What will you do a year from now in either company when they decide your group's function/product is no longer needed by the company or is no longer profitable? What is the probable life cycle of each product of your work? How will each job contribute to your long term career goals? What are they? You seem to have stayed a long time where you are, is this because you fear change?
I agree with the notion of constructing some "pseudo-scientific" spreadsheet and listing advantages on one column, how each job ranks in that category in the adjoining columns and how important each advantages is to you in the final column. Do some simple math on the numbers and by then you should know the answer in your gut even if the numbers don't give you the answer that agrees with your gut. Go with your gut. I did and got the reputation that he can do anything and will ... not a bad notion to have attached to your reputation. Every time technology or business would threaten my position (and it did and it will), I was always one who was saved because I had portable and learning skills. I was still being offered new jobs in my 50s and 60s.
And we all remember what happend last time Bush was in control...
IMHO, stay.
You're on the fence with a 10% raise. To me, that's not so much, so I'm thinking maybe you are ready to jump already. Ask yourself, how much of a pay increase would it take to get you off the fence? If your current job was closer to home, would that make a difference? Play around with the parameters in your head, determine what motivates you and what doesn't. Then when you know what's really important to you, get as much of that as you can out of whoever you decide you want to work for.
You're trying to decide between a pleasant workplace at one salary and a ______ workplace at another salary. Seems to me, tbe question is "what it the work environment like at the new company?" Instead of asking here, ask people who work there, used to work there, or have family working there. Facebook will help you find friends of friends who work there. Heck, Facebook posts by employees may give you a strong clue how they are feeling after work.
I had two competing offers during my last job hunt.
one was about 20% less than the other, but had an hour less commute a day, and an opportunity to work in gaming vs. finance.
I spoke with a lot of friends/family on this issue and they all said the same thing:
"How much do you need?"
if they're both offering that, then go with the most fun.
-and occasionaly a giant moose.
If you're having to ask, you don't really want to go. If you like your current job, 10% isn't enough to justify leaving unless you have something else significant prompting your move. It sounds like your current employer is interested in your career development and willing to cultivating you. If you are in good graces with your current employer, what you might do is go to your manager and say something like:
"Look, I really like it here. But I have this other job offer that came out of the blue and they're offering me 10% more than I'm making here. I'd like to stay, can you match the other offer"
If they're serious and value you, they should make you a reasonable counter offer.
In this economy, any prospects for growth are iffy at best. I just recently hired a guy who had been promised growth opportunities at his last job and they never materialized. The number one question I ask when considering changing jobs is, "Why did the person who had this position before leave?" The way that question is answered will speak volumes about what you are getting into. Usually, people do not leave good jobs, and if they do, they do not do so lightly.
Going from a company that does software primarily, to a company that does not is a big change. The culture is going to be very different. In most companies, IT is viewed as a cost center. The IT department is continually battling with other departments for resources. Do you want to step into a position where your colleagues are constantly trying to snatch your budget? Do you want to be there knowing that those same colleagues are in "core" departments that management fully supports, while your department is just something that they are kind of interested in?
If you do not absolutely need the money, be very, very careful about exchanging money for freedom and free time. I went from a non-profit organization to a major consulting firm. I am making 50% more per year, but I seriously miss my old life style. I might have had as much disposable income, but I had all the time I wanted to train kung fu, meditate and take care of myself. Now I have very little free time, kung fu has fallen by the way side and my stress levels are way up. In my opinion, the extra cash is BARELY worth it.
Was it Coach K or Warren Buffet who said something like, "if you love your job, you never have to work a day in your life". It's hard to find a 'fun' job. There are so many crappy only-work-to-pay-the-bills jobs, a fun one is extremely hard to find. If you're not hurting for money, keep the one you enjoy.
I have a fairly simple way of breaking the deadlock on these types of decisions.
FLIP A COIN
If you're looking to go two out of three... its not the one the coin landed on... you've made your choice
If you're not looking to go two out of three... it is the one the coin landed on... you've made your choice
...you're an expense.
It's a lesson I learned the hard way, though your mileage will certainly vary.
At a job that pays 70K, I feel like I can tell them to go pound sand if they try to make me work long hours, especially if there are other higher paying jobs available. I generally value the time I can spend with family and working on my own projects more than a job. And I valued the money that a good, but difficult job can bring in. If both 70K and 100K jobs are 50 hours a week, except the 100K one is more stressful. I'd still take the 100K job and just learn to deal with it, because even at 50 hours a week I am still able to go home and really enjoy myself.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
I doubt a job can ever be all that "fun". At least compared to the adventures one can have if one didn't need a job.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
in any job you have 3 things
people
workload
compensation
if you have 2 of the 3, you're golden.
I'm really surprised that you expect strangers on /. to be able to answer this question for you. Are you really so indecisive? It's your life. This isn't a technical question.
I'll make it easy for you. Will your spouse leave you because you aren't making enough money? Then yes. Otherwise no.
If the new offer was a LOT better, I mean a BIG jump, I would do it.
Otherwise, it's not worth the risk
was in leaving a job I loved to take a job that sucked but paid a lot more. 2 years of that job almost killed me.
Now on the other hand, if you're really serious, take a handful of people in the new company out to lunch. Buy them pizza, and talk to them. About life, interests, girlfriends, families, and see if they're a good fit. Don't talk to your bosses, talk to your peers in the new company, and the people who would work for you. That's the people who can help you make the decision.
I'd rather regret the things I've done than the things I didn't do. Nothing ventured—nothing gained. But since you're in doubt and have a stable job, you might as well use that and get them to pay you more. What's a few tens of thousands of dollars between friends, right?
I find the I Ching good for this stuff. Like the coin flip, it helps you find out what you want to hear.
Also, it's kind of a cultural thing to say fun > money, but when I picture myself sitting down to write a check for a thousand dollars a month to make work more fun, I realize I it does not seem like a really great bargain. (Escaping complete misery might be worth that much, but that doesn't sound like the choice in front of you.)
As someone who's been through a very interesting and sometimes bumpy ride along the career path, I can say for sure that you can only grow so far by staying in one place. Change is never easy, especially if you're thinking about leaving something known and secure and pleasant for something which is necessarily uncertain.
But the best time to leave is with all of your old working relationships in their best form. And be sure to go back and visit! It's an ideal way to solidify reputation as someone everyone likes to work with. You're off to a good start, and it only improves with practice.
Parity: What to do when the weekend comes.
Do Something Like This: "If they leave that company, it’s often to go to a startup with a friend, or to follow a great boss to another company, or because they decided they really want to work on, say, Eclipse, because Eclipse is cool, so they look for an Eclipse job at BEA or IBM and then of course they get it because they’re brilliant." - http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/FindingGreatDevelopers.html
Basically what I'm saying is to figure out what you want to try next and then decide if you want to risk what you have to try that thing.
In any case, try to leave by saying that you'd like to come back if whatever you're going to try doesn't work out :)
I used to be a Disney Imagineer. "Fun" companies and "Fun" jobs may not be the same thing. I had much more fun in other jobs.
I made a choice like you in going for more pay in a new location. I miss all my friends at my old job and miss the routine at my old location. Sure there were problems, there are always problems. However, it is really important to have people that you enjoy being around at your work that share your same interests. Work is part of life.
How well do you know the potential new company, potential new coworkers? How much support and buy-in does this team-building effort have from management and executive concerns in the company? Are other people happy there? Does the company send people for training? To conferences? Do they bring trainers in-house? Are you going to be working with competent and capable people? How up to date is their software? Hardware? Office furniture? Copiers? If stuff is dingy, old, falling apart, these are probable red flags ...
10% more money and significantly less commute time is a decent improvement, especially if it also means you broaden your skillset -- but you have to enjoy the new challenges put before you, or it will be tough to succeed at them and even tougher to be happy in your new situation.
You really have to change jobs every now and then, particularly in technology, in order to have the opportunity to land the really cool jobs AND get paid top dollar or doing it.
I am, therefore you think.
If you think you're a good enough leader to recreate and improve on the fun environment you have now in the new job, then take it. As director you'll be in the rare position of being able to set the expectations on your groups culture. On the other hand - if you aren't 100% sure you can pull that off -- I'd stay where you are. Nothing beats having fun at work. Except maybe the joy of creation when you build your own team, the way you want it, and it works. The one downside as leader, though --- in making things fun for everyone else, you'll find that you are doing a lot more 'unfun' stuff yourself. Leadership as service...
I, personally, have been insulted by counteroffers. I've been offered more money to stay in a current position than to take another position in a different department within the same company - multiple times. I think I would feel the same way even if moving to another company.
A counteroffer is your current employer's way of saying "We've been willing to underpay you for quite some time now, but now that you're considering leaving, we'll pay you more".
This isn't based on merit, or performance, or how shiny your shoes are. It's based on the fact that you've been knowingly paid less than you're worth, and now they're being called on it.
That sucks.
If you've made it to 40 and never gotten into a job that you eventually wanted to leave: congratulations.... and, I hope you realize that there is as much luck as skill in that accomplishment.
If the new job is only 10% more money and 20 minutes less driving per day, forget about it. That 20 minutes/day can be eaten in a heartbeat by a sucky job that demands you stay late too much. I'm assuming your current pay meets your needs and you can (if you choose) put a little aside for retirement/vacation, whatever. If so, 10% more isn't going to change your life, and you can even end up burning that extra money on things that a sucky job demands of you that a fun one doesn't (end up paying professionals to fix the car/house due to time-stress from work, more expensive travelling vacations because you "need" them, etc.)
Now, if your current job pays $45K/yr and the alternative is $195K.... that's serious, change your life bank that - if you could stick it out for 2 years - would really make a positive change in the years following, and who knows - the $195K job might be fun once you get into it, too.
I've had the same job for over a decade. Although I mostly enjoy it, things have changed, and it may be time for me to move on. I have weeks of vacation to burn and was thinking of "trying" the next job out. That is, I am considering taking a 2-week vacation from the current job (keeping them unawares), and openly asking the future employer for 1-2 weeks to try the new job out (even for free) to see whether it's a fit for everyone involved. It sounds dramatic, but I really think it'd be a good way to reduce the "gamble" for both sides, especially since I am experienced enough to know that the people can make or break a job, in addition to the tasks you sign on for.
That, of course, makes the assumption that management is level-headed. Some will cut off their nose to spite their face.
Unless you're a single-minded baboon, can any job be that much fun after you do the same things for 8 hours per day, 5 days per week, most of the year?
It's very hard to turn fun into a job. When you start introducing the 'job', it usually starts to kill the 'fun'. You might be just trying to quantify bearability of a job, rather than actual 'fun'.
witold.org
It's pretty easy to guess where you're currently working. I work there too. Rather than compare the two offers, I'd consider a third option: shaking it up a little bit at your current employer. Talk to your manager and say that you just got a great unsolicited offer from another firm, and it made you realize that though you love the company, the fact that you're even considering it is freaking you out. Talk about some of your challenges, and that you think maybe you need to try something different. You like a whole lot of things about your job, you're just a little bored. Fix that part instead of taking a huge risk for slightly more money.
You're self employed too?
When the decision is clearly easy, it's because one option is better than the other.
When the decision is hard it's because both have equal pro's and con's so it's not important which one you choose.
Taking a counter offer has a lot of down sides. The replies here concentrate on the most common fear, that folks will question your loyalty, and/or your boss will retaliate in some way. I actually think those are unlikely outcomes.
What actually happens is more subtle. The money is supposed to make you happy. There was a reason you obtained a job offer in the first place, you were unhappy about something. Your leadership is going to assume that by paying you more money you will no longer be unhappy. This is only true if what made you go looking was money. Otherwise that annoying boss will still be there. The soul sucking project must still be completed. The crappy commute continues to happen every morning. Not only do you still have to deal with all the things that made you unhappy, but now you have to think about what could have been if you had taken the other job every time they really piss you off.
I know multiple people who took the counter offer. Not a single one ended up happy. There is only one case where I think it is a good idea, and that is if you're being paid significantly below market rates. Most companies balk at more than a 10-15% raise for a new hire or promotion, so if you're more than 15% down it's hard to make it up. Taking a counter offer ups your base, and lets you immediately shop for a new job where you can tell them your current (now higher) salary and it's true and verifiable.
Otherwise, I'd really advise never taking a counter offer, and if that's the case there's really not much point in getting one. All it does is make your decision seem harder, and/or make you less positive about the new job. Neither are good for your long term emotional health.
Sounds like you have to make a hard call between two attractive job choices. I had a similar situation a little while back. I found the below method useful. Let me quote the man then on to an example.
"“My way is to divide half a sheet of paper by a line into two columns; writing over the one Pro and over the other Con. Then during three or four days’ consideration, I put down under the different heads short hints of the different motives, that at different time occur to me, for or against the measure. When I have thus got them altogether in one view, I endeavor to estimate their respective weights; and where I find two, one on each side, that seem equal, I strike them both out. If I judge some two reasons con equal to some three reasons pro, I strike out five; and thus proceeding, I find where the balance lies; and if after a day or two of further consideration, nothing new that is of importance occurs on either side, I come to a determination accordingly.” –Benjamin Franklin"
In a nut shell, write up a chart (excuse the csv):
Element, Importance Factor, Job A, Job A subtotal, Job B, Job B subtotal
Commute, 5, 6, 30, 4, 20
Salary, 8, 7, 56, 8, 64
So on....
Then add up your sub-totals for A (86) and B (84). Larger number means that choice has a more of what you value. In this example Job A wins. Buy yourself some time to make the decision. Be honest - tell them you've got to run the numbers. The below link expands it better than I could. Scroll about mid page to see a nicely formatted chart.
http://artofmanliness.com/2009/08/17/how-to-make-a-decision-like-ben-franklin/
"It's one thing to talk about the poetry of machines. Quite another to listen to it for yourself."
Years ago, I left a contracted programming job at a startup that paid about $150k annually, to pursue AAA game development, starting in the low $40k.
Whether working the 40 hr/week or in crunch, I was doing something I absolutely loved.
It was both one of the riskiest and best decisions I ever made, and would do it again in a heartbeat.
That, of course, makes the assumption that management is level-headed. Some will cut off their nose to spite their face.
If management was like that I doubtful the author would like where they works.... If you don't like where you work, then you don't ask for a counter offer.
In today's technical job market experience across multiple companies and jobs is critical. Ask yourself what would happen if you got laid off when you're 50 years old. Could you find another job, or would you be lacking in experience as a result of staying with the same company for the long term? After you consider this question, the answer should become more clear.
Sorry, but I have to post anonymously on this one -- it'd give way too much away.
I'm basically in the same spot as you are. I'm in my late 30s, and have been working in what I consider a very fun job for quite a while, The company is a service provider for a very well-established industry, and we specialize in doing IT services and networking solely for that industry. (It's not finance, not oil and gas, but think of something else along the lines of core worldwide infrastructure and you'll guess it pretty quickly.)
My job is basically "make shit work" -- I'm in systems integration and work with all sorts of diverse stuff. Our engineering team is constantly called in to untangle total messes that our salespeople oversold, solve strange multivendor problems, and provide systems expertise for a few of our company's core products. It's challenging, intellectually stimulating, and yes, a lot of fun if you're the right type of person. I'm not one to blow my own horn too loudly, but I've carved out a position of respect both in our company and with many companies in our industry. I'm good at what I do, our customers appreciate that, and my small niche within this already incestual industry means that I don't have to look too far to find work should things ever go south here. But, I'm basically paid to be a lab rat and learn how to get modern software and hardware shoehorned into the ultimate legacy IT environment - some of our customers' systems date back to the first mainframes, literally. For me, it's the best job I've had and the most fun you can have while doing work.
The flip side of all this is that there's always the temptation to go looking for new job offers. I work in the New York City area, home of the finance industry in the US. The industry I'm working for is low margin, and getting lower-margin every year, while it seems like banking IT is able to pay people more and more, regardless of recessions. My trade-off for fun, meaningful work is a lower salary. I could easily get a 20 % raise by signing on to a financial services outfit and commuting to NYC every day. Why do I stay?
- As I mentioned before, fun and challenging work.
- The stuff I do, while unbelievably unsexy, powers an industry used by millions of regular people that has a concrete, "we do this" kind of function.
- I'm doing something useful, not mindless paper processing or weapons design...
- Flexibility - a very important thing for me now that I'm a new dad.
These things are way more important (to me) than the potential higher salary and more cutting edge tech, Chasing that constantly just makes you miserable.
For that level of responsibility, and to move from such a great job, especially at 40, you should be looking closer to a 50% pay bump.
Don't think my post is coming from a young'un who is putting down older workers; I'm 44. You're literally at the end of your rope, career-wise and so am I. You have a chance to get a 10% raise and transition into management (away from the deathtrap of IT). OMFG, DO IT NOW NOW NOW. Do it while you can. Get the money now before the industry pegs you a "has been".
Seriously. Go. Even if your'e a bit less happy you'll be better off career-wise and retirement-wise. It's the adult, smart choice. Go.
"We can categorically state we have not released man-eating badgers into the area." - UK military spokesman, July 2007
You can have fun in nearly every situation. If there's a whiteboard in the hall, write funny 'messages of the day' on it. If you eat lunch with your coworkers, find ways to start conversations ("I think Windows Phone 8 will destroy the iPhone" and watch hilarity ensue).
My mom always told me, "only the boring are bored." And there is truth to that.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
If you love your job, you are the 1%. Most people dread going to work. A 10% bump in pay is not going to change that for the vast majority of them. Money is just money, happiness is a state of being. Not long ago, I was offered a 50% raise to leave my senior position at a small company to go work for a much larger one. Negotiations went well until the very end. In the "afterhour" when it was apparent the job was mine, I happened to ask about the desktop. Being a senior employee at a small company, I am accustomed to having vast flexibility. The norm is two desktops, one Linux and another Windows for testing, with a trio of monitors, plus a Mac laptop so all the major platforms can be tested. I was informed they run Windows XP, IT evaluates ALL hardware requests, and that is that. It was then I realized that trading guru status in a small company for being just another random coder at a large corporation would require a huge revision of expectations. In the end my family helped me decide that time with them (work at home now), happiness with my day to day computing experience, and overall flexibility was worth more then a 25% raise after taxes and commuting expenses.
Your situation is yours however, good luck, and I hope it works out well for you.
apt-get install redhat please god - Me (take it easy, I love Debian)
Has Slashdot devolved into an online counselling forum? This isn't even a technical question.
take the new job since the fun is all but over at your current company anyways. Besides, what guarantee is there in this post-PC era? None.
And Steve, 40? Really? lol
PS, good luck at your new job.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
Okay, this may be have been said and therefore redundant. However, in case its not, I've worked at places that were either: a. Fun and lower pay b. Boring and higher pay c. Unpleasant, stressful and higher pay d. Fun, Stressful and lower pay. (notice of the fun jobs are often somewhat lower pay...but read on) Stress is proven to have a negative effect on your health and life span. The worst stress is from difficult, high pressure situations. Often companies pay more for this, but nobody I know works well in these conditions for long, or at least not at their ideal level. Continual exposure to these often leads to serious problems and mistakes at the company in either maintenance or applied changes. One step better is stress from routine, boring situations which is not as bad, but the brain starts losing its creative juices. Your brain becomes like fruit drying out and decaying. (minus the funny smell). Neither are good for you and are often a sign of management issues. I've worked at fun companies (and still do on a regular basis). They make job and the employer more worthwhile, and more often than not, show management understands the human element of the workplace equation. If you get to work with a "dream team" there truly is no price on that. In my experience they are rare and I miss the ones I got to work with (at companies that got acquired or downsized, either way split the team). I don't feel an extra 10% is worth the potential years of your career you'll never get back. Nor the potential years off your life due to increased negative stress. Note, bordom is a form of negative stress.
My opinion is if you have a good team/company and you can live comfortably, that is ideal and to throw something like that away for 10% increase in salary is selling yourself cheap. That is my 2-cents.
"The mass of men live their lives in quiet disperation" - Henry David Thoreau.
Translation: Most people hate their jobs and their lives. This is true today. Why join such a miserable majority?
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Einstein
I had the same choice. It was fun, educational and financially rewarding to make the switch, but I've found that becoming a Director has actually hurt my career options, and now I'm very unhappily unemployed. How did this happen?? As a manager I stopped programming. Which has resulted in me losing front-line skills that are needed for getting new work. And with some bad luck of losing my job in a company downsize, this has been a real problem. I'm older, wiser, and experienced at a lot of things, but companies aren't hiring Director positions very often. Companies are hiring junior level and senior level engineers, not Directors or managers. So I've been out of work for over two years!! Now, my problem is being unemployed too long, and not having recent programming experience, and being too "senior." I liked leading teams, but ironically it has made me less employable in a recession economy.
Many people write that 10% pay increase isn't that much.
My point is that the shorter commute is more important than you may see at first.
If you shorten the travel time by 20 minutes each direction, it means almost 3.5 hours per week to spend with your loved ones.
Consider your salary per gross hour (i.e. include work and travel time) and - drums please - the pay raise is up to around 20%.
If family time is important to you, I'd absolutely consider the new job seriously. As a manager you will be able to shape your group and make it a fun place to work.
If the job is satisfying or even great, it's a win-win-win situation.
If the job is only mid to boring, it's not a terrible loss anyway. You've been around enough to be able cope with "boring" while looking for your next job.
Don't say no just because it's "only 10% more pay".
Seriously, if I like my job, why would I want another one?
A guy on $20000 a year is in a much better position than a guy on $10000 a year. But someone who earns $1million a year will live pretty much the same lifestyle as someone on twice that.
Are you earning enough? If so the extra isn't a factor.
I don't really know what "more than 10% more" is. (I know it's not less than 10% more!) But I do know that if it becomes a major goal, and you pursue it doggedly, there's a pretty chance you can get a 10% raise where you are.
A fun job is worth a crapload. Stay and work on the small details that are fixable. It's far more difficult to turn a crappy job into a fun one.
There's been plenty of work done studying it and it disagrees with your assertion. People who take counter-offers have lower job satisfaction, are less likely to be promoted and have a tendency to leave for a different company within a short window of accepting it. The only thing that is ridiculous is you thinking you can somehow make a definitive statement on this.
Having said that it doesn't mean that it is never beneficial to accept counter-offers, that every company is the same etc. One fundamental point is that many of the cases where the counter-offer worked out badly are where the person disliked their job, boss, company culture etc so simply adding more money didn't solve the underlying issue.
I would say, print whatever offer they gave you and tell whoever is your boss that you have been offered X more money in Y company BUT that you REALLY REALLY REALLY prefer to stay with this company (because it is cool), although your family REALLY needs the extra cash... basically ask them to give you a raise with the extra offer.
A lot of times people do job hunting only to have leverage for their own job. Maybe they wont match the other salary, but they might increase it just enough to convince you to stay :).
Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
Study after study has revealed that people are happier through experiences than through possessions.
So make a quick check how many good experiences those extra 10% can buy you and if that would compensate for the loss of a daily good work experience. My guess is: Hell no!
Finding meaning in a job and a feeling of really belonging to something bigger is one of the most important job satisfaction factors. So, again from that perspective: No.
The only thing that would justify a yes is if you really, really need the money. Either because of debt, or because it would make a real quality change in your life. In the IT world, that is unlikely. Beyond a certain income (studies have found the number, but I don't recall it) there is no added benefit if your income is slightly increased. It is when you can afford new things that you couldn't before that your life changes, not when you can afford a few more. Suddenly being able to make a holiday trip to another continent is an experience and worth the money. Being able to spend 3 weeks abroad instead of 2 is not going to make the same amount of difference.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
I am working at a fun project now while being paid 25% less than market price :) :) (i am 38 now)
But i would not be afraid to change work. You can only be sorry for things you DONT do in your life
Let me say that I also work a software engineer and I may accept a PhD position shortly. This will mean a 40% decrease in pay. Moreover, I will have to travel an hour by car to get there, in stead of 15 minuten by bicycle.
However, the research is an extension to what I am already researching in my spare time, and I really like this. Moreover, an academic work environment appeals much more to me than a commercial one. To each, his or her own, but this change is worth almost half of my pay.
Always follow your heart, young padawan!
... take it.
"Yeah Tommy, before Zee Germans get here
Reading many of the posts here, you all seem like incredibly ignorant and self-centered people who couldn't give a shit about anything that doesn't directly affect you personally. You creep me out.
I am wondering why nobody has pointed this out but "lead software engineer" and "software director with the task to grow a new group" are two very different positions and the question OP should ask themselves is whether they want to get more into the "management" side of things and away from coding and if no more coding would be acceptable for them.
On the upside, especially as you are growing older these skills and experiences of managing and running things are much more marketable than being yet another coder in your 50s with young whippersnappers pushing into the market every year and giving you a run for all the available jobs.
"Only one thing is impossible for God: To find any sense in any copyright law on the planet." - Mark Twain
That sounds like a 'No Go' to me. Seriously, the pro and cons are so close together that one would need more data than what you've provided in the post, but to be honest, a 10% increase in salary isn't worth the risk if you really like your current job.
If the new one is a 10 mile comute vs. a current 100 mile comute, then the case may be different, but from the data you've provided I'd say it's a "No Go".
Think over the details and the possible risks and make your decision. And factor in the possibility that you might be the kind of person who spends the next 20 years wondering if he did the wrong thing. Then it's actually better to do the switch, even if it *is* wrong - just to get it clear.
I did a wrong carreer decision a year ago that moved me into a dead end yet again. On the upside I do now know for absolutely sure that that was, is and always will be the wrong way for me to go under such conditions. Knowing that can mean a lot when moving on with your life.
I'm currently totally broke (and I mean *really* broke!), will have to take on a crappy paying PHP/HMTL5 sidejob any day now and could be making 55000$ whilst learing Java instead right now if I hadn't turned down a job last year. But I still have enough to eat, good sex and space and time to go back to university. There's an upside to every turn in your life.
Bottom line:
Don't stress out over such things to much, no matter which move you make and no matter how it turns out in the future.
Good luck.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
So it is 70k vs 77k. Not worth it in my opinion. Not if he is happy where he is. And 10% more for a director role? Seems low.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
I had a job I absolutely loved programming with a company of 9 people. They had a bad streak and had no money coming in for 3 years. The parent company kept supporting us. I found a job programming at a company only 2 miles farther. It was a smaller company (50 people) that had just been bought up by a large company. They offered me 10% more in pay, so I took the chance. I look back and regret making the switch. Even though the new company is a lot more stable, I work with a lot more people and its not a very tight knit group. We have since been forced to move buildings a few times, now instead of my 10 minute drive, I am up to 30 minutes. The people really do make a difference in your perception of your job. My family even noticed a difference in my attitude when I got home from work. Things are better since a few people left the current company and I can stand working with most of the people I am with now. I give all my kids 1 piece of advice, do what you love and don't worry about the pay, you will spend roughly 1/3rd of your life at your job...do you really want to be unhappy with it? Just learn to live within your means.
Leave a fun job where they appreciate you and are trying to advance you for another place with a measly 10% increase? You have no idea how good you have it. You'd be a fool to move and you'll regret it forever.
No one can give you an answer to this. Either situation has the potential to be fantastic, horrific, or anything between. All I can do is point out some of the potential benefits and pitfalls of each - you need to embrace both the potential benefits and costs when you make your decision. Make the most of the good things and accept the bad as a necessary part of life.
A great deal hinges on priorities. I face the same decision my self, and chose to leave. On the plus side, I have much more control over my time. I can decide on this course or that - my decisions are not directed by someone above me. I can be very flexible with my time. And the fate of my business, income, commitments, etc rests largely in my hands. This is a great part of running your own business. On the down side, I have to invest far more time in total than I would as an employee, i.e. my commitment must be higher overall. I am frequently exposed to risk and a financial roller-coaster that I never experienced as an employee. The remaining time and energy I have for my family is probably less than I would have as an employee (but I can't be certain of that).
Above all, remember that nothing endures. Your work situation might be great now, but could change overnight. Changes are inevitable, and you probably won't like some of them. Don't think of this in terms of what the atmosphere of the place is now - think of it more in terms of what relationship and position you want with respect to your business (and how that might impact on those close to you).
How about ask the question another way... how much more would you need to be offered to make it a no-brainer for you to move? 20%? If you know that number, ask the new offerer to match that. Be honest, tell them you are on the fence, and for that much you'll close the deal today. That's the worth of fun to you.
I once had a gracious offer from an employer I left... I had a significant vacation balance and they offered to leave me on the books to run out that vacation over time (as opposed to a lump-sum following termination) in case I wanted to come back if the new job didn't work out. It bought me about six weeks of "tryout" in the new job. That is way beyond normal but that was nice to have... I almost didn't take the new job at all after hearing that and realizing how much they wanted me to stay, but the pay raise in this case was 25% and I was much younger and just couldn't pass up the money.
That goes to paragraph #1... instead of possibly hurting your relationship in the current job by introducing some boat rocking, work the other end by making the new position something too hard to pass up. Personally 10% probably wouldn't be worth the risk to me unless I felt the new job was a great fit.
If you take a job as software director, you won't be developing software any more, you'll be managing software developers. I took that promotion myself, and enjoyed the new and different work. But it meant lots of meetings where I talked to other managers who didn't know anything about software development, trying to explain why systems take so long, cost so much, and can't be developed correctly without participation by the senior members of the "customer" work group.
I also met with funding providers for the software unit often, to justify progress, schedule changes mostly doe to discovering new complexity in the data requirements or interfaces.
I worked in management for about 10 years before retiring, and I became a wizard at grant applications, spreadsheets, project scheduling, interviewing potential developers, but I didn't really ever code, or even do system analysis at the specification level, ever again.
If you're good with that, then maybe a 10% raise is a good thing. But dealing with personnel problems, people's health problems, needs, and family problems, HR requirements, etc is not the same as coding at all.
Just sayin' ...
Think of the Irony!
Analytic Hierarchy Process.
You have a number of considerations. Some of these are very important, some are of intermediate importance, some really don't matter all that much. These are your priorities; they're probably different from my priorities in thinking about such a decision. The formal AHP process takes you through rank ordering these priorities, then determining how much more important the money is than the commute (for example). The salary for you might be twice as important as the length of time you spend travelling.
Eventually you end up with an equation - 0.421 x salary + 0.103 x commute time + 0.258 x "fun quotient". You get the idea. The point is that the multipliers will be internally consistent and have been arrived at by a fairly rigorous evaluation routine.
Bottom line. We all have multiple considerations for big decisions (which job should I take? which house should I buy, taking into account how close it is to the city, how much it costs, amount of yard space, number of bedrooms, etc.) You need to figure out which parameters are your most important considerations, and make a determination taking everything into account, but not letting something that might be a really unimportant facet outweigh the considerations that really matter to you.
I'd rather have a job I like that pays 70K than a job that sucks for 100K. You spend A LOT of time there, so you might as well enjoy it.
That's a 42.86% pay increase if you go from 70K to 100K (or a 30% pay cut if you go the other way around.) For that, I would do a job that sucks. Albeit I wouldn't do it permanently (2-4 years top), for I would use it as a trampoline for something else.
We are talking $30K a year, $120K in a 4 year period. That is enough money (if you are not an idiot and live frugally) to build a security nest such that you can walk away from any bad job (giving a mental finger to any pointy hairy boss you leave behind.) It gives you the power to be choosy and picky about who you work with.
I can understand not taking/wanting a pay cut (or pay increase) in the vicinity of 10% to 15% percent. But rejecting a 40+% pay increase or engage in a 30% pay cut? Specially when we are talking about high end, upper-middle class salaries? That's just absolutely nuts.
God help your friends if you are ditching this kind of advice. Life is like boxing. Sometimes you have to take a punch to get close enough to deliver a KO'ing upper cut. You have to learn to roll with your punches.
That is, sometimes, to get to the peace of mind of working on your own terms, you have to work on shitty stuff for a couple of years if it pays well and paves the way to future peace of mind.
Provided I'm not in a dream job already, if someone were to tell me here is a job that'll pay you 50% or more, base salary, with OT (lots of it), doing COBOL or Pick BASIC (the one with numeric labels for GOTOs) surrounded by assholes, hell yeah, I'll do it for a year or two, squeezing every possible penny, saving everything. Then kthxbye, followed by a 3-5 month sabbatical while looking for my next job under my conditions.
There is nothing more satisfying than knowing you can walk away and survive up to a year while looking for the perfect job. Barring getting some inheritance, there is no way a person can get there without conceding the possibility of doing shit we don't necessarily like. It's life!
All jobs have warts, and if we are honest, many of them are subject to our interpretation (typically via the warts in our own optic lenses.)
I'm sure, no, I know that there are jobs that are so atrocious that will make anyone switch to a minimum wage job. But those are corner cases. They don't warrant such drastic salary cuts (anything over 15%) for the general case.
Half the population makes $26k or less. Just something to think about when you say you have $65k in bills/debt and family..
Oh, shut the hell up. There is nothing to think about unless you are going full blown emo, proactively looking for something to be upset about (and I say this as a person who grew up in the second poorest country in the Western Hemisphere). I mean, what the hell are you supposed to entice by that kind of remark. That people with the means should feel guilty for not living poorly like their more dispossessed citizens? GTFO please.
See, little secret for you. If you have an upper-middle class salary, you will live an upper-middle class life. You will want a nicer house for your family as opposed to living in the projects, run-down neighborhoods or whatever. Been there, done that, thank God I'm not there anymore.
If you have such a salary, you will get a nicer house. Not only that, you will move to a school district with better schooling ratings (which cause properties to be more expensive.) You will get better, more reliable transportation. You will have a 401K or IRA account, you will get the family health care plan with the best coverage you can afford. You will get better clothes not just for you but for your children. You'll try to feed them better food, organic food if possible.
You'll take them to Disney and feel the utmost happiness when you see their faces light up. You'll start saving on a college fund for them. And when summer break comes, you put them in summer camp. Not to mention you will put your kids in swimming classes, or music classes or whatever. You live and spend so that your kids do not go through a need (people argue that the later causes spoiled behavior, but that's just a gross generalization that does not hold true.)
Compare to that with a person of scare economics means. Having 3rd-hand shitty transportation or no transportation at all (which pretty much raises the cost of living per item). Living in run-down neighborhoods, which statistically are more prone to crime. With your kids in sub-par school districts. With no money to put them in summer camp, let alone giving them an opportunity to grow and explore extra-curricular activities. No college fund for them, not to mention subpar or nonexisting medical coverage. Poor nutrition options leading to greater risk of obesity. Etc. Etc. Etc.
Something to think about next time you see a person of means having a $65K family expense bill (unless you suggest him and his family live as if they were under the poverty line.)
where software is not what they sell, but we write all our own software for internal use. I love the job but I am always worried that a couple down turns in a row will happen and they will cut my department. My advice would be to stay where you are if the job makes you happy.
Lots of spoiled brats on this forum...be glad you have a job and don't cry if you have to commute 3 hours a day to/from.
Often I've seen guys job hop for even 1% more... then come begging for their jobs back when things didn't work out a few months later...then very surprised when the old company laughed at them... then they had no job.
Unless the pay is 30% higher, stick with where you are at.
However it is about balance, and only you can make that determination.
How much is it worth to you? I would suggest that 10% raise, is not enough to tempt me away from a position that I enjoy. Of course it depends on how much you enjoy it. There are also factors such as family and providing for them etc..l then again more time at home and less commute is also a factor.
In any case I would suggest unless the wage is a LOT more, and/or the commute is a LOT less, I would stay where I enjoyed the work and was comfortable. If a company came along and offered 25% more, and half the commute, then yeah, I think I would have to consider that.
This is all hypothetical to me, as I live a 10min walk to work, so halving my commute isn't exactly a big deal. However if someone offered my 20-30% more money, well I think I would do it, then again, I wouldn't classify my work as "fun" so much as "tolerable".
I'd say, considering your age, the most important factor is long term growth and job security. The danger in becoming too comfortable at a job is complacency. And when that happens you risk stagnation which means that if you end up losing your job one day you might not have the skills or experience to easily find a replacement. I think the question to ask is, where would you be if you stayed where you are and were laid off in 5 or 10 years. If you have complete confidence in the future success of your current employer, that's definitely an important consideration and might be a good reason to stick around. However, the promise of career growth doesn't necessarily lead to security if the new company is a mess.
So I have worked for a couple huge 3 letter companies and was tired of being a number. I decided exactly what I wanted to find and started looking. 6 months later I found the position at a nice privately owned company that does a ton of business as they deal in a specialty item that will be needed for years. The guy I replaced left here for a title, SR. something or another, and a salary 20% less than what I was hired in at. Granted he is 7 years younger than me and does not have my experience level. I am happy as hell now and it is no longer work because I found what I wanted and couldn't be happier. I say stay where you are as I jumped ship one place in a similar situation 8 years ago and have worked everyday until July when I accepted this position. It is great when the owner of the company and all the VP's seek you out to ask how you like your position and to become a name again.
Work isn't meant to be fun, that's why it's called work and not fun.
I once read that (statistically of course) for every year below X you retire, your life expectancy goes up by one year. I can't recall for sure but I think X was 65 (may have been 55 I don't know for certain). So for every year earlier you retire, you actually get 2 years of retirement time since life is one year longer. But this did not apply above the age of X. Basically once you reach a certain age, you're better off to keep working since you'll die shortly after you retire. I'd really like to see some better stats from an actuary on this.
If loyalty is what's keeping you in the old company - then don't. Any sign of trouble and they'll get rid of you. In my experience when companies speak about loyalty, it's just in one direction.
-- Miki Tebeka The only difference between children and adults is the price of the toys.
Fixed the subject for you.
If you've changed jobs 'several times' based on a shorter commute or some (irrational) concept of 'fun', congratulations. When your current job goes away (and it will, if it's 'fun') prospective new employers will look at that and conclude that 1) you're a job hopper, 2) your priorities are fucked up, and 3) they shouldn't hire you because you'll expect them to treat you like a human being instead of a cash machine.
Fun is irrelevant. Money isn't.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
Happened to me. I had another offer at a 'fun' place. I told my employer and they offered a 15% raise. I took the counter and then 1 month later they decided they didn't need me anymore. By that time the other place had filled their position.
I just got a new boss (promoted from within our group) and I to him mentioned how companies treat engineering and software as a cost center - a necessary evil to be minimized. All my old bosses would agree. Sales people get a commission because they can say - look, if I didn't make THAT sale then THAT money wouldn't come in. Product development is so far removed from the money that it get's viewed quite differently. Now you can argue that if the sales guy didn't have THAT product that we designed and wrote code for, then THAT money wouldn't be here. Somehow that doesn't fly. So back to my new boss.... A few day later he came back and said fuck that "necessary evil" thing - I don't ever want here people say that. We're going to market our controls (my group does controls/algorithms and such) in terms the customers can understand and our business line people can understand. They're going to want our product because it performs better than the other guys because of what we do. We're going to sell what we do inside the company and out.
And you know, I have to agree with him. If you think IT is like maintenance - to be called when something is broken, then you will be considered a necessary evil. If you get on top of the issues and then start finding out how to proactively make your (internal) customers happy, you'll be viewed as an asset and treated with more respect, not as a drain on the company.
Money is far more important. 'Fun' is totally irrelevant. You can't pay your mortgage with 'fun'.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
So, I guess the question comes down to... Should I stay or should I go now. Because possibly if I stay there may be trouble and who knows, if you go there may be double. Ask you wife, "Darling, you've got to let me know... should I stay or should I go now?"
Possibly jumping into a bad situation on the other hand is everything. One of the worst mistakes of my life was leaving a job I was happy with for what I felt was a company that would have better career growth potential.
It was an epic mistake and the worst job I have ever had, bar none. It was the only time in my life where I seriously considered quitting without having another job lined up. I worked for a miserable psychopath. Sadistic selfish micro-managing boss doesn't even begin to describe him. I found myself waking up in the mornings to go to work and running straight for the bathroom to vomit from intense panic attacks just because I was so nervous about going into work that day.
Fortunately I found something else after only 3 months but I honestly don't regret the experience because I learned an extremely valuable lesson in what aspects make a good job, and what drawbacks are inconsequential or can simply be dealt with. There is no such thing as a perfect job or situation, and I realized how much I appreciate and love my current job despite its obvious drawbacks. I never would have appreciated this place without that experience. Unless you are 110% sure it is a good move, and you are sure that you no longer want to stay at your current job, then don't do it.
Don't forget to add working to pay taxes into your equation. If your salary bump puts you into another tax bracket, or if you live in a state where there's an income surtax, you can get a big raise and take home a few peanuts if you cross the right line. America's tax structure at the current time does not reward hard work. The harder you work, the less money you get, which is demotivating and discouraging (to me, at least).
dont convince yourself to go to a new job. If you are happy, dont leave until you have an offer where it would be folly not to go. If you have to talk yourself into it, it's a bad gamble.
Don't leave yet. If you're mind is questioning it, it's not the right move for the right company.
It seems like you're asking the internet permission to change jobs. You have the option of doing nothing (remaining at your current job) or doing something (changing jobs). You've listed all the reasons why doing something would be good, but can't bring yourself to do it. Since you can't find it within yourself to do something, you look to external forces to convince yourself to do something, as though your logic and deduction were not enough. By doing so, you will be able to internally place the blame of your decision on someone other then yourself when in reality the only person who is harmed/benefited by your decision is you. The fact that you bring your future up for discussion means your faith in your own thinking is insufficient, when in reality your own thinking is the only thought that matters. Any evidence brought to the table by either side will be anecdotal evidence which can and should be ignored.
You come here hesitant to change, thus you should not change.
I am a software director - I consider my main job is make it a great place for the team to learn and be fun. Focusing on that kind of environment makes the team productive, loyal and ... god forbid ... work as a team. That involves spending most of my time protecting the team from the corporate BS and pain that will distract them and make their lives hard - being a software director can be pretty ****y. I'm going to reference the London finance IT market (but convert to $). My org pays more than $70k for a graduate trainee, and all the experienced software devs are being paid $100k+. We do expect the top end of talent for this however. As for the software director role - we expect to pay multiples of the grad trainee base, not 10% more. Summary - risk/reward/**** factor trade-off is nowhere near big enough.
after working my old job for 6 years, waking up every morning saying "i don't want to go to work", I finally completely changed industries and got a new job this year. It was 100% the right decision. But, I gave up working at home, hanging out with my dog all day, and about 10% of my pay. Still, I only have a 10 minute bike ride to work (or 30 minute walk), I can wear shorts in the summer, and I'm more or less my own boss. I've been here for the better part of a year now and I still enjoy every day. It's all about deciding what makes you happy.
One way is six coin flips for a broken or whole line. Then you look the commentary and read something very ambiguous. Sometimes it seems meaningful.
There's been plenty of work done studying it and it disagrees with your assertion. People who take counter-offers have lower job satisfaction, are less likely to be promoted and have a tendency to leave for a different company within a short window of accepting it. The only thing that is ridiculous is you thinking you can somehow make a definitive statement on this.
Having said that it doesn't mean that it is never beneficial to accept counter-offers, that every company is the same etc. One fundamental point is that many of the cases where the counter-offer worked out badly are where the person disliked their job, boss, company culture etc so simply adding more money didn't solve the underlying issue.
Spot on. Once you mention that you've got another offer, you've shown your hand and need to be prepared to play your cards. You've shown your current company that you are unhappy enough that you are at actively looking for a new job, or at least entertaining outside offers. They might try to counter, or they might show you the door; be very sure that the new offer is solid before revealing it to your current employer.
If you are looking for another position because of money, then it might be wise to take the counteroffer. If it's something else, then money will not fix it, and you are better off going with the new job.
What would Dilbert do?
So you work for Tycho Brahe?
Every business I've ever worked for has a "no counter offer" policy. Once you're willing to quit, your heart is likely no longer in it for the job you have currently.
Some of us are actually working for humans. I know that I am valuable to the company I currently work for, but everyone involved knows that I could get about 150-200% of my current wage if I switched jobs, because of abilities and experience (I've gotten real offers, this is not conjecture). I love my current work situation and am economically comfortable, that's why I stay there.
My boss recently approached me with a vague "are you happy here", and eventually I understood that she meant "we can't pay you much more, but we'll do everything we can to accommodate you in order to make you stay". So I frankly said that I'd like to keep the freedom to choose my tasks that I've always had, but also to have more power to bring them through (I'm an "IT guy" for a small publishing company under a larger IT organisation with a cumbersome bureaucracy, so that basically means "more root"). They complied against company policy. I should say that I am competent and responsible enough that it won't lead to a problem.
I'm very happy with my coworkers and I enjoy accomplishing things, so that greatly enhanced my job satisfaction. I'm considering other options, but it works for me (and the company) for me to be a cowboy, and few companies would grant "whatever-is-needed" access to a new hire. There is a very enticing offer as a dba consultant, though. Root all the way, no hurdles :)
Are you a grammar Nazi? I'm trying to improve my English; please correct my errors!
What you are feeling is uncertainty. You could get fired tomorrow and literally not know how you are going to feed your family. You could do extremely well. This is one of the greatest highs in life, and it's called ACTION. You are at a point where what you do ACTUALLY matters, and we don't get as many of those as we think in the course of a lifetime. Embrace it. Own it. Go with your gut.
Unless you can retire at any time and you're just trying to squeeze the last bit out of your present employer, I would NOT mention to them that you're seeking another job except to give your notice, and would never accept a counter-offer.
The extra money they'd offer you isn't nearly as much as what you're risking if you end up with no job for a year or two, or flying around as a consultant - again unless you can just do without an income for an extended period of time.
I've known plenty of managers that would take something like that personally. Those who wouldn't would question your loyalty (oh sure, they'd have little loyalty to you if a directive came down to lay you off). They'll look to make you expendable. They might keep you around, but you'll never be made a critical person on a project, or promoted, etc. When the day comes that somebody has to go, you'll be that somebody, since you are expendable by design.
I've talked to managers who basically agree with me. They've told me that if they were to leave they'd never ask for a counter-offer, and if they were asked for one by a subordinate they would always give one, but consider them a short-term prospect. You're basically turning yourself into a temp employee when you ask for a counteroffer - and companies do hire temp employees all the time, but they fire them just as quickly.
I advise moving. The only way to find excellence in life is to challenge yourself by expanding your comfort zone.
If you don't feel uncomfortable, you aren't growing.
Had a job I liked with people I enjoyed working with but was grossly underpaid. Got an offer for a lot more money at another company and when I went to tender my resignation I told them it was nothing personal and I was leaving for a better opportunity, so they asked what it would take for me to stay and ended up giving me the same pay I was being offered at the other company.
Some folks will say to never accept a counteroffer, but I think as long as you have a good relationship with the company and make it clear that you enjoy the job and the only reason you're leaving is money they may just bump you up. A 10% increase is a lot less than what I ended up getting.