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Cameras To Watch Cameras In Maryland

Cornwallis writes in with a story reminding cameras everywhere that just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't watching you. "Many people find speed cameras frustrating, and some in the region are taking their rage out on the cameras themselves. But now there's a new solution: cameras to watch the cameras. One is already in place, and Prince George's County Police Maj. Robert V. Liberati hopes to have up to a dozen more before the end of the year. 'It's not worth going to jail over a $40 ticket or an arson or destruction of property charge,' says Liberati."

46 of 297 comments (clear)

  1. um... by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 5, Funny

    That's a race condition if I ever saw one...

    1. Re:um... by ByOhTek · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sadly, knowing people, they'll move to a longer range mechanism of destruction, that will be much less feasible to observe with a detection net.

      And of course, some of these people will miss. Some of these misses will damage property of innocent 3rd parties, possibly harm innocent bystanders, and possibly even kill innocent bystanders. The sad part is, these people, will pass blame for their actions onto the government, rather than taking responsibility for what they've done, and feel completely justified in doing so. The response to this will be the government putting up more cameras...

      Not saying that a I approve of the cameras, either, but two wrongs don't make a right, especially when the second is done to an innocent bystander. This escalation is also scaring me.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    2. Re:um... by MitchDev · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Or wear masks. Dith the camera, we're sick of Big Brother. We're disgusted with the Police State America is descending in to. The terrorists won. There hasn't been a major terrorist attack on US soil since 9/11. Because of DHS and/or the TSA? No. The terrorists achieved their goal on 9/11, for the past 11 years they've been laughing as America destroys itself over that one day of attacks...

    3. Re:um... by Blue+Stone · · Score: 3, Funny

      One possible future: two giant cameras watching each other.

      (While everybody goes goes about their lives, unhindered).

      --
      Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - Ambrose Bierce
    4. Re:um... by cayenne8 · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Maybe dress up in your best black ninja gear...out of a car parked out of range...and use some nice, super high powered hand held lasers, and burn out the CCD's on the cameras...?

      Not that I've given any thought to this in the past...or.....anything....

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    5. Re:um... by NatasRevol · · Score: 2

      I don't know why this doesn't happen now. .22 rifle from a few hundred yards. Problem solved AND your gun sighted in.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    6. Re:um... by BlueStrat · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The sad part is, these people, will pass blame for their actions onto the government, rather than taking responsibility for what they've done, and feel completely justified in doing so. The response to this will be the government putting up more cameras...

      Well, the blame IS largely on the government, as often these camera programs are slipped in "under the radar", so to speak, as most city/county councils/governments are aware that in many cases most of the constituents are against them. Also to blame are judges that are fine with witnesses that can't be cross-examined (the camera) used to "prove" guilt.

      Maybe these camera-snipers would be more effective if they changed targeting priorities to the government officials responsible for pushing these programs and accepting them as legal proof of guilt, if they refuse to listen to their constituents when they object to Big Brother style surveillance? The camera system makers/contractors and the Feds are throwing a lot of gold at these officials to adopt camera surveillance and enforcement systems, so lacking gold, maybe the populace should throw hot lead instead?

      Thomas Jefferson and his contemporaries knew that government, despite their best efforts to keep it in check, would grab more and more power and confiscate ever more of the people's wealth. They envisioned the citizens rising up using the 2nd Amendment and forcibly "downsizing" the government every few decades. According to TJ and his buddies, we've been slacking at decorating the trees in the town square and downtown D.C. with government officials swinging by their necks at the end of a rope.

      Just sayin'...

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    7. Re:um... by grantspassalan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Nobody needs to get violent. There still is this thing called a ballot box. Anyone who has voted for an incumbent official no matter where or when is part of the problem. Don't hang the unresponsive officials, but just vote them out and let them get a real job in the private economy, if they can find one.

      --
      A sufficiently advanced simulation is indistinguishable from reality.
    8. Re:um... by circletimessquare · · Score: 2

      Maybe these camera-snipers would be more effective if they changed targeting priorities to the government officials responsible

      it's funny how in the effort to fight a perceived abuse of authority, we find thugs ready to endorse a worse kind of abuse

      murder

      because of traffic light cameras

      what an asshole

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  2. But... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Who watches the cameras that watches cameras?

    1. Re:But... by Dave+Whiteside · · Score: 2

      they'll just have more camera to watch those .. ad infinitum ....

      --
      who where what when now?
    2. Re:But... by Tackhead · · Score: 2

      Who watches the cameras that watches cameras?

      Voyeurs and Xzibitionists.

    3. Re:But... by Megahard · · Score: 3, Funny

      It's cameras all the way down.

      --
      I eat only the real part of complex carbohydrates.
    4. Re:But... by jeffmeden · · Score: 2

      Who watches the cameras that watches cameras?

      Voyeurs and Xzibitionists.

      Fans of famous rapper, actor, and ride-pimper Xzibit? Wow they are nicer people than I thought! Or, are they hoping that by watching out for these speed cameras, Xzibit will grace them with a pimped out ride?

    5. Re:But... by dmacleod808 · · Score: 3, Funny

      hey man, we heard you like cameras, so we put a camera on your camera.

      --
      There Can Be Only One...
    6. Re:But... by kilfarsnar · · Score: 4, Funny

      Who watches the cameras that watches cameras?

      Voyeurs and Xzibitionists.

      Yo dawg! We heard you like cameras. So we put a camera on your camera, so your camera can watch your camera!

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    7. Re:But... by DJRumpy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I would have to agree that you are putting way too much faith in us. I used to work at Mobile before it merged with Exxon, and it was right off the interstate. It was fairly common for bullets to hit the glass as high as the 14th floor.

      People love to shoot at things that irritate them, and these cameras are nothing more than revenue machines.

      "It costs us $30,000 to $100,000 to replace a camera. That's a significant loss in the program. Plus it also takes a camera off the street that operates and slows people down. So there's a loss of safety for the community," says Liberati

      Considering far too many of these speed cameras and the associated street lights they monitor, have been caught shortening yellow light times beyond federal standards to 'catch' people running the light, I would question their motives.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6he1M5wexic

    8. Re:But... by Ambvai · · Score: 4, Funny

      It's cameras all the way down?

    9. Re:But... by EdIII · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It can more simple than that.

      RC Helicopter. Just create a payload with a strong magnet. Fly by, stick it to the camera, and detonate. Small controlled explosion with no collateral damage. Even better, just design something to block the camera itself. Sticks on and is passive. No damage to anything.

      What about high powered lasers? Cameras can't be watching everywhere. Set a laser up to hit the camera over a longer period of time and it will be slow damage, but ultimately very effective. Has an added bonus that anybody caught while the camera was an impaired can effectively argue against the ticket due to the damage.

      I'm all for civil disobedience and the destruction of these cameras, but that's not an excuse to break out the ol' RPG.

      What would be the optimal solution is actual mass protests. Have real human beings blocking cameras and sensors with their own bodies. That stops the cameras from functioning and has the added benefit of a quite visible protest.

    10. Re:But... by jeffmeden · · Score: 2

      I somehow doubt people are using hunting rifles on speed traps, I further doubt that they would do that in america, but maybe I put too much faith in my fellow americans.. Now I would *not* be surprised to hear about this happening in the types of country where everyone walks around carrying high powered rifles all the time, but those countries have much larger troubles than speed traps anyways.

      You mean, like Switzerland? Yes, I agree, they do have bigger problems than speedsters, leiderhosen wedgies are horrible!

    11. Re:But... by jeffmeden · · Score: 2

      I hear in the UK paintball guns are the norm.

      Apparently, it's to hook a tyre (filled with a bit of petrol) around the elbow in the camera pylon, and then light it ablaze causing enough heat on the camera box that it will self-destruct. At least thats what this site suggests: http://www.speedcam.co.uk/gatso2.htm

    12. Re:But... by ahem · · Score: 4, Funny

      I think he was actually saying that many folks are wearing incorrectly sized leiderhosen.

      --
      Not A Sig
    13. Re:But... by Mitreya · · Score: 2

      RC Helicopter. Just create a payload with a strong magnet. Fly by, stick it to the camera, and detonate. Small controlled explosion with no collateral damage.

      Talk about a geek site solutions
      Or, you know, you could just wear a mask or a baseball hat?

    14. Re:But... by drkim · · Score: 2

      Yeah, except the Swiss would never shoot out a speed camera.

      Correction: The Swiss wouldn't be speeding in the first place.

  3. Excellent! by rastoboy29 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is obviously the right way for our society to go.

  4. Except... by rwven · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There's no possible way someone would think of destroying the camera-observing-camera BEFORE the speed camera.

    Then you end up with TWO broken cameras, and didn't accomplish anything.

    1. Re:Except... by metalgamer84 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Common sense never seems to be a factor in these "bright ideas" that some panel of people came up with. Wasting money is what they do best, fixing problems is the least of their concerns.

    2. Re:Except... by MagicM · · Score: 2

      The solution is having three cameras in-line with the speed camera in the middle and the other two watching.

      Why did that get dirty all of a sudden?

  5. Blind the camera by fustakrakich · · Score: 2

    Doesn't a simple strobe light work?

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    1. Re:Blind the camera by SomePgmr · · Score: 2

      I think we're talking about your average dumski making a right hand turn on a rolling stop (guilty, here). Not trained foreign agents with a Q in the wings to pre-emptively develop an automatic camera blinding system for your car. ;)

    2. Re:Blind the camera by cayenne8 · · Score: 2

      Mythbusters disproved the "blind the camera" idea. Along with everything else. They tried multiple ways to fool the speed camera and found nothing.

      Do you really think that if they found one way that actually worked to defeat the speed cameras, that they would show that on Mythbusters??

      I kinda doubt it...

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    3. Re:Blind the camera by Whorhay · · Score: 2

      I seem to remember an episode about cheating on urinalysis tests. At the end they said that they did find one semi valid way to do it but weren't going to disclose it and then pronounced it busted. Or maybe it was the breathalyzer episode... I just don't remember anymore.

    4. Re:Blind the camera by nschubach · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Besides... do you think they'd show everyone how to defeat a law enforcement device?

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
    5. Re:Blind the camera by Dan1701 · · Score: 2

      In Britain, it was found that whilst it is possible to operate a laser speed measuring device at night, the associated camera to record vehicle licence plates doesn't get a picture at all. So, over here if one speeds during the day when the traffic camera (Talivans, they are nicknamed) units are out one risks a fine. However at night, feel free to drive like an utter loon as you have only the rather over-stretched police force to worry about.

      It is also the case that these cameras rely upon the car licence plate being correct, and the registration being up to date and registered to a person who can be traced. As it is quite possible to buy a legal-looking show plate without showing ID or car registration documents, then the obvious happens quite often: criminal goes out looking for a car that is the same make, model and colour as his vehicle, notes down the licence plate, gets a pair of show plates of this number made up and puts them on his car. Police checks will simply come back with the car looking like it is the correct make, model etc and much of the time police won't take it further, as long as the driver looks safe and sane.

      However, someone else is getting all this moron's tickets and likely having the very devil of a job proving his innocence (and yes, it does now come down to proving innocence as opposed to forcing the prosecution to prove guilt).

  6. The proper way to handle speed cameras by jrmcferren · · Score: 4, Informative

    Simply burn them. Here are burnt Gatsos in the UK: http://www.speedcam.co.uk/gatso2.htm

    --
    sudo mod me up
  7. In Soviet Russia... by Guano_Jim · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...camera watches camera!

    In the United States, it's the other way around.

  8. Gee, that really increases the difficulty by oic0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If anyone sees you destroying the thing you're going to get in trouble anyway, so we are assuming the people are doing it when no one is around. In which case, wear a mask, park where the thing cant see your car, and walk right on up to it lol.

  9. First of all by king+neckbeard · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The camera watching cameras are an easy target, and I don't think people really buy the safety crap anymore. Its a money making teacher and we all know it

    --
    This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  10. get rid of all the cameras by Dan667 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    getting rid of revenue cameras would be easier instead of watching Americans like paranoid communists.

  11. Who watches the watchers? by Darth+Snowshoe · · Score: 2

    While I can't say I'm a fan of speed cameras, and in fact the thought of vandalizing them has crossed my mind on occasion, the two I encounter routinely in Baltimore County are right out in front of elementary schools with lots of cute little pedestrians around them. So, it's hard for me to be entirely critical of the effort - at least because it does what it's supposed to - it reminds me to slow down before I run over some kid. If instead they were everywhere, I would be much more in opposition to them.

    1. Re:Who watches the watchers? by crakbone · · Score: 3, Insightful

      An automatic speed bump would work with an instant penalty be easier to setup, cheaper, and would not need you to go down to a courthouse to contest. Do you really want to trust the safety of your children to a company that gets paid more if you go past the speed camera?

  12. Re:Good. by greg1104 · · Score: 2

    The companies lobbying for speed cameras now are using the revenue from earlier speed camera income to do so. That's a fundamental flaw in how our government is structured, the ultimate cause of many problems. If you allow a company to profit from shady activities, then they can use those profits to hire lobbyists supporting even more of their shady activities, that is a sound business model. You can't expect regular people to out-lobby them; where does their money come from? Me the anti-camera guy, I have no effective lobbyist voice available to me, unless I raise money to do so. That's why companies profiting from the voters will out-lobby voters every time.

    There is no solution here that doesn't make corporate funded lobbyists illegal. The concept of the paid lobbyist who influences our lawmakers makes a travesty of the idea that voters matter.

  13. Re:Good. by kilfarsnar · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The law is the law, and if the speed limit is 55 or 60 inside Baltimore City then that's what the drivers should be doing. If they find that objectionable rather than destroy the cameras, they should be lobbying to have the speed increased to 65.

    Except that my observation is that almost everyone wants to drive above the speed limit. If almost everyone wants to do something, should it be illegal? Perhaps yes, but I think it's a good question to ask.

    --
    "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
  14. PROPOSAL: fines' profit = traffic flow analysis by Khopesh · · Score: 2

    From the article,

    Liberati says the cameras aren't a case of Big Brother nor a cash grab, police are simply trying to keep the public safe from reckless drivers.

    That's a hard sell; speeding tickets (et al) pay police/transit dept budgets. This makes it hard for the public to understand that the police are there to help. The problem with speeding is that it can be done safely, and there are plenty of people who regularly speed without risk of accidents. I've encountered more near-accidents created by Highway Patrol than by speeders (which is in part a public stupidity item -- the radar gun already clocked your speed well before you slammed on the breaks and forced the guy behind you to do likewise).

    I'm a stats guy. I would support these cameras if they were used for statistical purposes, and I do not support them due to the current money flow. Here is my modest proposal:

    • Make (and advertise!) a policy ensuring that fines from safety enforcement (by police officer or camera) do not help the enforcement budget.
    • Such fines would instead fund traffic flow analysis (and perhaps safe driver programs).
    • Not all cameras (and other sensors) need to generate tickets, aggregate data works just fine without the fine. Cell carriers have data on phones that can help calculate aggregate numbers for highways and don't need to correlate identities to provide it.
    • Traffic flow analysis is used to figure out how to safely reduce drivers' commute times. This could include
      • Increased speed limits where that is deemed safe
      • Dynamic speed limits (with digital signs) based on time of day and/or congestion level
      • Better signage (tell people what lane they need!)
      • Better use of HOV lanes (which must be 2+ lanes wide so you can pass idiots)
      • Synchronized traffic lights that encourage throughput
      • Synchronized traffic lights that discourage throughput, with signs telling people where to go for through traffic
      • Realigning turn lanes
      • Prohibiting certain items during rush hour (e.g. no left turn week days 4:00p-6:00p)
      • Construction to better rework an intersection or ramp, etc. (Funds from fines won't be enough here)
    --
    Use my userscript to add story images to Slashdot. There's no going back.
  15. Infinite Recursion by Slashdot+Parent · · Score: 4, Funny

    That's a race condition if I ever saw one...

    Sounds more like an infinite recursion, if you ask me:

    installMonitoringCamera(Camera cameraToMonitor) {
            Camera monitoringCamera = new Camera(cameraToMonitor);
            monitoringCamera.monitor();

            if(monitoringCamera.observesSomeAssholeSettingFireToMonitoredCamera())
                    installMonitoringCamera(monitoringCamera);
    }

    --
    They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
  16. Police Brutality Cameras to Follow by ohnocitizen · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Many police officers find civil liberties frustrating, and some officers take out their rage on citizens. But now there's a new solution: cameras to watch the police.