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AMD's Hondo Chip 'A Windows 8 Product'
dgharmon points out comments from AMD's Steve Belt, who was asked about the company's upcoming Hondo APU. Hondo is their biggest attempt to date to break into the tablet market, and they're doing so with a distinct focus on Windows 8. Belt said, "This is a Windows 8 product, only. We're not doing Android on this platform, at least not now. ... It is a conscious decision not to go after Android. We think the Windows 8 space has a lot of opportunity, there's plenty of TAM [total addressable market] there for us to go at. So we don't need to spread ourselves into other markets, we think Windows 8 is a great place to start. Down the road we may look at Android, right now we're focused on Windows 8." The article adds, "With both AMD and Intel readying Hondo and Clover Trail respectively for Windows 8 and pushing their respective customers to come up with designs at roughly the same time, it will be interesting to see just how many Windows RT tablets will appear at the operating system's launch. However one thing is clear, neither AMD nor Intel will have Android x86 tablets running with their respective next generation ultra low voltage chips." Fortunately, there's nothing stopping users and manufacturers from running other OSes on Hondo.
I think Windows 8 is shaping up to be like Vista: An attempt to coerce consumers into buying into a walled garden. PC hardware and software manufacturers have been looking jealously at Apple's profit margin and smacking their lips, wondering how to lock in their own slice of the pie. Vista had a bunch of DRM and other features that were friendly to manufacturers but bad for consumers. I am not convinced Microsoft is even trying to make Windows 8 successful -- I think they know it's going to fail, but they're using it to set the stage for its successor, which will do away with many, but not all, of the bad features of Windows 8.
It's a marketing ploy commonly used elsewhere, but not on such a broad scale. It's like this:
Would you buy this memory card for $100?
Hell no!
Well, how about $30?
Oh, well, that sounds more reasonable.
...It only cost $5 to produce and distribute. It's a negotiating tactic -- you shock them first, then back off to appear more reasonable, but still wind up bilking them for more than they'd pay straight across. It's psychology. I think Windows 8 and it's peripheral products -- like this one, are about psychology. It's conditioning the consumer to accept vendor lock-in. Windows 8 is being thrown under a bus so Windows 9 can be shoved down your throat.
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
What's with all these new CPUs being labeled for "Windows 8 only?" First it was the new Intel processor, now AMD. Does Microsoft have some new ridiculous "partnership" strategy going on that we need to be aware of?
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
once upon a time you could get hardware specs with theory of operation.
then it became customary to drop that fanciness and just give a linux driver.
linux users applauded.
but then they stopped providing linux drivers, and as there were no specs,
and the windows drivers were closed, there was nothing to write linux drivers from.
the applause was premature, you slowly cooking frogs.
And growing logarithmically still. AMD is not alone though. Intel Atom chips are also going for the niche "mobile Windows" market that's struggling to crawl out of single digits.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Someone alert Al Bundy! He won't want to miss this.
I mean, we all know it was those evil pro-MS Intel types who named their chips "Pentium XP" and launched them just a couple of weeks after M$ launched Windows XP!
Oh, and Jerry Sanders *never ever* testified in favor of M$ at that Anti-Trust trial, that was some Intel evil guy.
And AMD Never worked out a deal with M$ to have it push 64-bit windows onto AMD's 64-bit CPUs, that was Intel, because it was evil Intel that forced us to upgrade x86 to 64 bits intead of using some miracle architecture.
Yup, AMD has a long history of fighting tooth & nail for the forces of good to stop Microsoft at every possible turn! That's why I know this story can't possibly be true, especially if it is being put forth by those known-pro Wintel fanbois that work in AMD's PR department...
AntiFA: An abbreviation for Anti First Amendment.
Microsoft went open (Shh, let me make my point), Apple went walled-garden, app-stores and didn't take kindly to the replacement of their apps, hardware components etc with others - basically decided they knew best and this would ultimately benefit their users.
So, two different approaches to the market - and Apple have come romping home the winner.
MS switches to the Apple approach - but I'm just not quite sure it's going to work. IF I personally wanted this experience, I'd be typing this on an Ipad already. If MS think they can out-apple, apple - then good luck to them, but I just don't see it happening (whilst I can see myself getting quite pissed off and giving Linux another punt).
Consider this: x86 on Android is a second class citizen, ARM is better supported by the ecosystem. Intel's trying hard so as not to be left out of the party, but ultimately advancing Android is counter to x86's interests in the near term.
Consider more general Linux: next to no application affinity to a particular processor architecture in the desktop space. All the popular software *today* is pretty much straight from distro and trivial to recompile. The exception being flash, but even Adobe seems to be trying to kill it at this point. Again, x86 vendors are likely not to be excited about advancing that picture of the future. Of course, the other fact of relatively low desktop share attributed to linux.
Finally, Windows. While they are trying to do an ARM strategy this go around, 99% of the reason to run windows is to run applications that, coincidentally, are x86-only. If you make x86 processors for a living, you *want* Windows to win at this point as the alternatives erase your competitive advantage and in fact turn it into a disadvantage. There is also probably some fear that the 'safe' Windows market that has always been x86 constrained getting away from that if MS' ARM effort actually takes hold. The more AMD and Intel do in the near term to be 'kind of like ARM, but with real application support', the more unlikely Windows on ARM is to make an advance.
Intel already used the Hondo name - for an Itanium chip, the Itanium 2 MX2, in 2004. A rather interesting one at that - the only processor I know of to use an L4 cache. Now granted, it's a Multi-Chip Module - two processor dies and an L4 die - so the L4 cache was basically just there to make the hastily glued-together processors work together faster.
I know, it's not exactly going to cause confusion for anybody, but it still irritates me when this happens.
As a desktop Windows developer I was disappointed at how Microsoft has abandoned its desktop roots and users for a single-minded pursuit of the iOS/Android smartphone market.The alienation of their existing customer base has been made very clear to Microsoft. So has the widespread dissatisfaction with Metro 8, but no one at Microsoft is listening to us or even feigning concern.
If Microsoft and hangers on like AMD want to bash their heads into a brick wall that's their choice, but they're not taking us with them. We read the writing on the wall and have switched our desktop efforts to Android tablets. Thanks for the push, Microsoft.
What about Windows 8 Secure Boot?
Seems to me like they're trying to give Microsoft a leg up... with the realization that Microsoft is going to fail miserably with Windows 8.
It's like holding someone's hair back while they puke... you know what they're doing is unpleasant, and that what you're doing isn't going to help much... but you do it anyway.
The new Focus will only run on BP gas!
* Carthago Delenda Est *
When the talking point is "Windows 8, not Android" my first question is "Windows RT or regular Windows?" In other words, is this an ARM chip (as is the case with 90% of Android systems) or an x86 chip? That key fact is buried near the end of the article (x86).
That little detail makes their decision not to support Android initially a lot easier to understand: people who sell Android tablets have all their expertise in ARM, and are not going to be in a hurry to buy an x86 chip.
... on Processors and platforms that will run Linux, because their days are numbered. They couldn't beat Linux on the IP front, so they will just collude to lock it out in the architecture.
From a business stand point its not worth doing linux support. It will take more resources and cash and the linux folks will never be happy with whats given to them.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
AMD... fuck you, too.
I expect these tablets will be locked to Windows 8 through a secure boot system. It remains to be seen that users will be able to install other OSes.
fuck windows 8.
secure boot system likely not lockout win 7.
To much enterprise use out there. But a lot can be made up by having the old desktop with some kind of old start menu be added to windows 8
Valid point, but for a forum dominated by people presumably knowledgeable in IT, any mention of AMD is presumed to be related to its 64/32-bit x86 chips, unless otherwise noted. While AMD just "might" be selling more non-x86 hardware, at the moment that's what they're famous for. Even their ATI-inherited GPU designs target mostly the x86 PC market. So there, no need to say Obama is the incumbent president and Romney his Republican challenger in a discussion about current US politics.
Android = Linux ?
They are not supporting Android, i.e they are not going to guarantee that its works but that does not mean you cannot run Android or your favorite Linux distro on the thing,
Lots of FUD and outrage over nothing at this point in time.
---- GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
For AMD and Intel, both firmly wed to x86, there is no TAM in Android, because Android tablets are almost all ARM based.
Not so much TAM, as x86AM.
Apple of course, also run ARM chips. It's odd, x86 is nowhere in that market, ARM dominates it, yet they'd like to pretend they can just enter the market with inferior product and think it will just magically win by who they are?
It seems as if Intel and AMD are repeating Nokia's mistake in signing on to some exclusivity agreement with Microsoft. Likely to be the only winner in such a deal is the software company, since software has traditionally been the more profitable business.
What may well seal the future of Windows, however, aren't deals with big Western corporations, but Microsoft's ability to shift the low-end players into adopting the OS. The question is, will the generic gadget manufacturers of China willingly abandon the relative freedom they've enjoyed with installing an OS they can already fork and bastardize without seeking the blessings of some big American company?
Maybe it's time for Microsoft to opensource some bare-bones version of Windows, perhaps rewriting it to ensure that installing it on premium hardware is enough of a pain to merit licensing the full OS?
...when the ARM processor does android just fine, thank you.
Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
As I understand it, theyre the only game in town if you want to do massive virtualization, because they provide substantially higher cores-per-socket than Intel (unless you count hyperthreading, and really who does that).
However unlike Intel, AMD said there is nothing stopping people from running Linux on its Hondo processor
Wtf why write an article on that !
Jehovah be praised, Oracle was not selected
Oracle/Sun with the T-series systems..
,just as they have for Nokia.
The AllWinner, the $7 ARM system on a chip which powers most newer low-end tablets, runs Linux only. You can boot Android, or any of several other Linux variants. There is no Microsoft option.
TFA neglects to mention whether this Hondo chip is x86 or ARM. Since Windows 8 runs on both, it's a legit question.
(I'm guessing x86, but that's just a guess.)
Microsoft, by abandoning their core business, will alienate people so much, (Windows 8 for PC is essentially abandoning PCs - it's that lousy), Windows 8 will have a cache worse than Vista enjoyed at the height of it's popularity. This negative atmosphere will carry over to Windows 8 powered cell phones, and tablets. It won't matter if they are any good or not. Windows 8 will have such negative karma, that you'll hear comments like "You got a Windows phone? Ha ha ha". Windows 8 cell phone and tablet manufacturers will be take a big, expensive hit.
(And no, I'm no fan of Apple, and I don't have an android phone. Just making a business prediction.)
If MS "sponsorship" of these chipsets is the case, it will probably come out. If it comes out, they will have to pay massive amounts of money to the EU and lose very lucrative contracts due to being a repeat offender. Would they really risk that? It would cost them billions this time, because previous fines obviously wouldn't have been high enough to deter them. Personally, I'm not so sure whether this is actually happening or not. They have the reputation, but it's a high risk strategy so it may very well be not the case, since they stand to lose an awful lot of money if it'd come out they did this.
A scenario in which Linux/Android support is added later for this or the next iteration of the same architecture sounds more plausible, for both AMD and Intel. Time to market is crucial here, so (initial) focussing on the OS that is going to sell the most chips isn't such a bad strategy. You can't have your complete development team write both the Windows and the Xwindows support drivers in the same time it takes to write just the Windows drivers for the GFX part of the chip. The same applies to other peripherals. Even if you can use large chunks of code from previous hardware generations, there still is development, test and packaging work to be done. Unless a large Linux/Android vendor is going to commit to a large purchase order (Acer, Dell or HP perhaps?) the commercial incentive to push for Linux drivers is relatively low. Someone in the FOSS will port the chipset, with rudimentary functionality probably, and AMD will probably have the open source driver team include it in a later release of their "generic" open source schedule.
I was promised a flying car. Where is my flying car?
We need a new name for this Microsoft only architecture - let me suggest "strongARM".
How else can these "our product is deliberately crippled" announcements from Intel and AMD be explained? Nobody wants to annouce that their product is crippled unless they are coerced into it.
Like the manufacturer of cheap electric guitars in the 80s?
We're screwed.
hasnt everyone that wanted one have one already? you can get fairly nice droid tablets for less than 100 bucks all day long, and some are still treating it like the next greatest thing?
welcome to 2009
That's an... interesting prediction. Honestly, I think you might be onto something there. All I know is, Windows 8 ain't pretty. It's the next ME/Vista.
Windows 8 is in fact the best target market for the Hondo, as well as Clover Trail. While their actual power consumption may be close, there is this market perception that ARM has the least power consumption, and as a result, almost all the tablets out there seem based on it (although I've seen some based on MIPS XBURST). Ergo, Android is about as synonimous w/ ARM as Windows is w/ x86.
So both Intel & AMD know that if they want any piece of this tablet market, their only shot @ it is via Windows. At least there, there is the theoretical possibility of running existing PC apps on those, and there, they at least have a chance. Maybe a Dell or an Acer could make a tablet which has peripherals where one could insert one's existing Windows DVD and install the title on Windows 8, or some such thing. That is the only way such a thing even has a shot in the market. Otherwise, if the OS is gonna be Linux, why would any OEM keep their suppliers limited to just Intel, AMD and Via, as opposed to nVidia, Freescale, Qualcomm, TI, and a host of other manufacturers (not even including the Chinese ARMS here). Linux will install on them easy, and ergo, so will Android, and they'd be off to the races w/ whoever gives them the best price for CPU. Android has pretty much been the great CPU leveller, which Intel or AMD would be stupid to play in.
It's 'open' in the sense that it's CPU independent, and can be quickly ported - if it ain't already - to any new CPU that's introduced. If a company decides to base its tablet architecture on Android, they have the choice of CPU vendors as diverse as NVIDIA, Freescale, TI, Qualcomm and a number of others, not to mention the Chinese ARM makers. And not just ARM - even MIPS is supported (such as XBURST). So if you have problems w/ ARM, looks like MIPS could be your answer as far as the fragmentation goes.
It makes sense that Intel & AMD are not targeting Android - they'd have to price their CPUs in the same ballpark as the ARMs. They are better off going w/ Windows 8. When Intel was earlier trying to work w/ Google, I was always wondering why? That's only going to force them into an even playing field w/ all the others, and leave them open to be beaten on price. And in Intel's case, there's also the fact that they're working on Tizen, which is a direct competitor to Android, or would be, once it is out.
Itanium - and indeed, any VLIW/EPIC CPU is good only if all the software that ever runs on it is liberated software. (If the FSF had to design & manufacture a CPU, they should do a VLIW CPU). B'cos VLIW II would break compatibility w/ VLIW I, VLIW III would break compatibility w/ VLIW II and so on. I'm not sure whether Itanium II changes the numbers of registers, pipelines or anything else from Itanium I, but if it did, Itanium II wouldn't run Itanium I s/w. At any rate, w/ the trend of s/w becoming more multi-threaded and multi-processed, tossing more cores @ the problem makes VLIW moot, and eliminates the compatibility problem. It also eliminates the advantage that RISC always had over CISC - if throwing 8 cores into a CPU can help match the performance of a POWER7, why not do it?
But from a market standpoint, VLIW is the worst architecture ever to have been conceived. RISC and CISC both abstracted any instruction set level changes internally, w/ techniques such as register renaming, branch prediction, speculative execution and so on. VLIW forces a compiler to do all that work, and fine tuning such compilers even after ensuring proper load balancing b/w all resources of the CPU is next to impossible. What's worse, it puts compiler writers on a treadmill, and even code generated after a lot of work can't be leveraged for over a generation. In other words, the worst ROI from a CPU.
Itanium is only good if you are building a supercomputer in which you are tossing as many Itaniums as you want, and then putting something like a Linux or a BSD on top, and then use it for whatever supercomputing problems it's supposed to solve. Otherwise, it's actually the worst CPU that one can thnk of, given that the resources poured into it can only be used once and not leveraged over generations
But I DO hope you agree that this is FUD on the part of Intel. Intel used the PowerVR GPU which we know doesn't support shit on Linux whereas the Hondo is simply Brazos II, an AMD CPU bolted to a Radeon GPU and AMD has already released the specs to Brazos so any bog standard Linux that supports Brazos will support Hondo, its really not that different, simply more careful gating to control power usage.
As someone who has actually used Brazos to build dirt cheap HTPCs running Linux I urge anybody that would love a nice HTPC for practically nothing to take a look at AMD. The OpenELEC Fusion build works great, has the XBMC 10 foot UI with a nice theme and great support for remotes, and you can get the barebone with a nice HTPC case and PSU for $125 on NewEgg or Amazon. Hit the sales and you can have a fully loaded HTPC with a Tb of space for $250, you just can't bat that for a remote controlled HTPC that looks sharp in your den.
I'm picking up my mom a new TV for XMas but her BDay is after that and I can tell you she'll be getting one of those OpenELEC systems, its a really nice OS paired with Brazos and will be just perfect for her to surf from her TV and watch her movies on.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
There is a simple reason why Win8 will work fine in the market - nobody likes carrying a 'slate' and a laptop on trips. It's sucks to lug around an iPad and a Macbook Air (or any other similar combination of devices from the Android and Win7 era PC devices). Being able to carry around one device - whether it be ARM or x86/amd64 based - is going to make Win8 work in the market. It doesn't mean that it will upset Mac or Android's place in the market, but it will, in conjunction with Winodws' inherent market advantage, be popular and be widely adopted. The only question is whether execution on Win8 sucks like Vista - and it most decidedly doesn't suck - it's quite the opposite. Win8 is more stable and more performant than Win7 (and arguably more performant than XP) on similar hardware. /. reader - but methinks this is about the only design decision that will ultimately matter, and I'm leaning towards thinking that it will result in success despite all the complaints about it.
So the merging of 'slate' and 'desktop' paradigms into a single OS horrifies many a
My only disappointment is that Windows Phone 8 isn't using the same OS as Win8, so that the phone-device will double up as the desktop device upon docking.
-- obligatory (but true) caveat: my comments my own, and don't reflect my employer or colleagues' positions.
Microsoft's standard business model has always been to leverage their monopoly in the PC market to reduce competition. Intel and AMD are still heavily invested in the PC market, so Microsoft has a lot of influence over them. It's too bad Judge Jackson's remedies didn't stand.
Dude...its FUD, not only is it FUD, its FUD by Intel, who went with the PowerVR chip on their new Atom and thus has ZERO Linux support possible!
All AMD said is they haven't got ANDROID support out of the gate...WTF does ANDROID have to do with Linux support?
Last I knew, Android runs on a version of the Linux kernel. So saying that Android can't run on a given chip does at least imply that other versions of the Linux kernel might not run either.
Cheers,
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."