US House STEM Visa Bill Fails

H1B by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-21 00:07 · Score: 2, Interesting

Did they exhaust the H1B limit already?

Re:H1B by firex726 · 2012-09-21 02:37 · Score: 1

I heard H1B's go pretty fast, often times companies will gobble the vast majority up.
Re:H1B by sabri · 2012-09-21 14:12 · Score: 1

Did they exhaust the H1B limit already?
The limit for H1B's for FY2013 was reached on June 11, 2012 already. The filing of H1B's for FY2014 will (probably) open up on April 1st, 2013. I'm sure a number of corporations have a few petitions ready to be filed.

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I'm not a complete idiot... Some parts are missing.

Why 2/3 ... by schwit1 · 2012-09-21 00:10 · Score: 2

The bill was brought up under a procedure that limits debate and doesn't allow amendments but requires a two-thirds majority for passage.

Re:Why 2/3 ... by LordLimecat · 2012-09-21 03:27 · Score: 1

How does that happen? Is that a provision of how the bill was introduced? Does someone raise a motion?
Im a little ignorant of how these sorts of things happen, and not exactly sure what to google-- what is this procedure called?
Re:Why 2/3 ... by davester666 · 2012-09-21 05:50 · Score: 1

It seems every bill needs a 2/3 majority, even if they use the procedure that should only need a simple majority. One guy just threatens a filibuster, and it becomes an 'oh, no, we need a 2/3 majority now to break it'.
Maybe the rule should be at least changed so that the member who announces a filibuster gets a really hard kick to the groin. Then maybe they'll only do it for the stuff they actually believe in.

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Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
Re:Why 2/3 ... by guises · 2012-09-21 06:03 · Score: 1

Filibuster only applies in the senate, and it's a 3/5 majority to stop a filibuster. Hasn't been 2/3 since 1975.
Re:Why 2/3 ... by spiffmastercow · 2012-09-21 06:33 · Score: 1

But in 1975 the filibuster was still an endurance test.. Which honestly is kind of a good way of handling the situation. If you have a minority that wants to block something, then they should feel strongly enough about it to stay there and wait out their opponents. If they can't do that, then they didn't care enough about the issue in the first place.
Re:Why 2/3 ... by spiffmastercow · 2012-09-21 09:04 · Score: 1

Nope. Essentially you just have to say "I filibuster" and unless the other side can muster 60 votes, it's a done deal.

Wow! by Alex+Belits · 2012-09-21 00:18 · Score: 4, Interesting

So dumb, they can't pass a law that allows smart people to stay in their country WHEN BOTH THEY AND THOSE PEOPLE STILL WANT TO STAY.

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Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.

Re:Wow! by h4rr4r · 2012-09-21 01:03 · Score: 1

Your website makes no sense. Who wants to be "free" if you have to live in Alberta?
It backwards rationalizes everything. I would far rather have an educated society than $10 off my property taxes.
Re:Wow! by nedlohs · 2012-09-21 02:22 · Score: 1

Smart people don't usually have just one metric that they blindly follow, and instead take other things into consideration also.
Re:Wow! by epyT-R · 2012-09-21 13:38 · Score: 1

no they don't.. they'll stay and funnel money back home until the limit expires and they can move back.

STEM Visas being held hostage by Stirling+Newberry · 2012-09-21 00:19 · Score: 4, Insightful

The argument is over the green card lottery, Republicans want to end it, the Democrats do not. About 5.5% of all Green Cards are issued based on the lottery. Both Democrats and Republicans want to issue the 55,000 visas, which are targeted at lowering wages of college graduates. So this gridlock is, for the time being, good for most readers of this site.

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Fugue for Aaron Swartz

Re:STEM Visas being held hostage by kenj0418 · 2012-09-21 00:37 · Score: 5, Insightful

I agree than any additional 'supply' will lower the average wage. But I'd rather be competing against 55,000 green card holders, who can negotiate fairly with their employers for a competitive wage than completing against 55,000 H1B workers who are (mostly) tied to a single employer and have a significant disadvantage in any salary/etc. negotiation.
So does one of the parties want to eliminate/reduce the H1B visas and replace them with green cards? Because if so, then I support them on this.
Re:STEM Visas being held hostage by Rockoon · 2012-09-21 00:44 · Score: 3, Informative

I think the Republican idea is that the Diversity Lottery is based on bad reasoning to begin with.

The Diversity Lottery gives priority to people from countries that have low rates of immigration to the U.S.

Forget about the "intent" of this lottery for a moment and instead consider what it actually does.. it gives priority to someone from France over someone from Mexico or China, and its simply because fewer people from France want to come and work here. Mexicans and Chinese are not allowed in the Diversity Lottery because more than 50,000 of each have immigrated in the past 5 years, a statistic that disallows them from even entering the lottery.

Here is the list of countries ineligible for DV2013 (according to Wikipedia):

Bangladesh, Brazil, Canada, China (mainland-born), Colombia, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala, Haiti, India, Jamaica, Mexico, Pakistan, Peru, Philippines, South Korea, United Kingdom (except Northern Ireland) and its dependent territories, and Vietnam.

This new law would re-target the Diversity Visa's to give priority to people with advanced degrees, instead of to people from the 'right' country. What do Democrats have against people from the above listed countries? That is, essentially, what they are arguing.. that something is wrong with those people.

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"His name was James Damore."
Re:STEM Visas being held hostage by flyingsquid · 2012-09-21 00:55 · Score: 5, Insightful

I agree than any additional 'supply' will lower the average wage.
That's not necessarily the case. You're assuming that with more people, everyone has to get a smaller slice of the pie. But the size of the pie isn't fixed. People willing to uproot themselves and their families to go halfway around the world tend to be motivated and they tend to be risk-takers. That means they start businesses at a much higher rate than native-born Americans. A recent study found that immigrants are 13% of the population, but 18% of the small business owners. They employed $4.7 million people in 2007. Some of the companies founded by immigrants become big companies as well... Sergei Brin, who was born in the USSR, founded this thing called Google you may have heard of. Immigrants are innovators as well- think of Tesla, Einstein, von Braun. So when you recruit the best and brightest the world has to offer, the technologies and companies these people found will make the economy stronger, and that will increase the number and quality of jobs.
Re:STEM Visas being held hostage by PopeRatzo · 2012-09-21 01:33 · Score: 3, Insightful

the 55,000 visas, which are targeted at lowering wages of college graduates.
See, those college grads are the last segment of society wherein somebody who comes from a lower-class family can make it into solidly middle-class or better category.
The ultimate goal of our overlords is to end social mobility.]
A year before Ronald Reagan took office, the United States was #1 in the world in social mobility, meaning the possibility that a person born in one class could move up in his lifetime. Today, the United States is #31 among OECD nations.
Yes, our overlords want to lower the wages of college grads. When people from lower classes achieve social mobility, they gain political power. When that happens, it's like someone dropped a turd in the overlords' infinity swimming pool.
Ronald Reagan changed America. Yes he did. And now, if you actually work for a living, you are either fucked or about to be fucked. Because we've had 30+ years of uninterrupted Reagan economic policies.

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You are welcome on my lawn.
Re:STEM Visas being held hostage by Rockoon · 2012-09-21 01:42 · Score: 1

I mean, I don't think it's great reasoning either, but try not to deliberately misrepresent the other side of the argument; it actually hurts your side.
Are you suggesting that its wrong to call a political party a bunch of racist bigots just because they support a policy that disproportionately effects minorities? Thats not what Democrats told me.

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"His name was James Damore."
Re:STEM Visas being held hostage by oh_my_080980980 · 2012-09-21 02:04 · Score: 3, Insightful

Your argument is based on the ASSUMPTION that these people will start businesses. Most of these people will work for existing corporations, not start their own businesses. Thus they will be reducing the number of jobs not increasing them.

The other obvious problem; THEY'RE VISAS! Once the visa expires they have to leave the country.

Moron.
Re:STEM Visas being held hostage by Cajun+Hell · 2012-09-21 03:22 · Score: 1

So when you recruit the best and brightest the world has to offer, the technologies and companies these people found will make the economy stronger, and that will increase the number and quality of jobs
You free-market conservatives make a strong case for growth economies, but my mommy and daddy said that if I do as you say and start voting against the Republicans, baby Jesus will cry.

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"Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
Re:STEM Visas being held hostage by LordLimecat · 2012-09-21 04:11 · Score: 1

Seems to me-- ignorant, non-elected individual that I am-- that the thing to do would be to pass the thing everyone agrees upon (so as not to continue pissing off the constituency), and argue about the other stuff later.
I mean, we could also just lump all of the years issues into one gigantic Megabill, and argue about it for the next 10 years, but that seems counterproductive. But thats just me.
Re:STEM Visas being held hostage by LordLimecat · 2012-09-21 04:16 · Score: 1

Your argument is based on the ASSUMPTION that these people will start businesses. Most of these people will work for existing corporations, not start their own businesses. Thus they will be reducing the number of jobs not increasing them.

Thats not necessarily true. If the companies are helped to succeed by their employees, more jobs tend to be created by those companies.
Re:STEM Visas being held hostage by LordLimecat · 2012-09-21 04:18 · Score: 1

Republicans dont believe in growth economies? News to me.
Re:STEM Visas being held hostage by TheSync · 2012-09-21 06:15 · Score: 1

A year before Ronald Reagan took office, the United States was #1 in the world in social mobility, meaning the possibility that a person born in one class could move up in his lifetime. Today, the United States is #31 among OECD nations.
You should look at this cohort study:

Previous studies of recent U.S. trends in intergenerational income mobility have produced widely varying results, partly because of large sampling errors. By making more efficient use of the available information in the Panel Study of Income Dynamics, we generate more reliable estimates of the recent time series variation in intergenerational mobility. Our results, which pertain to the cohorts born between 1952 and 1975, do not reveal major changes in intergenerational mobility.
Re:STEM Visas being held hostage by PopeRatzo · 2012-09-21 07:16 · Score: 2

The problem is that people recognize and laud individual kindness, but fail to recognize the systemic evil they participate in.

That's right, the big drop in social mobility started for the kids born right about then.
During the Carter years, even with a somewhat stagnant economy, you still had a great deal of mobility. The effects of the Reagan years starts hitting those born in the 70's. Understand, "social mobility" means if you're born at the low end of the economic scale, you have a chance to move up, so clearly you won't see the effect of Reagan for anyone born in the '60s because they were already entering the labor market, and many of the variables affecting economic mobility occur before the age of 21.
In other words, the baby boomers had a chance. Everyone after, less and less.

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You are welcome on my lawn.
Re:STEM Visas being held hostage by TheSync · 2012-09-22 11:22 · Score: 1

58 percent of the households in the lowest income quintile in 1996 moved to a higher category by 2005.(data here). I don't see the problem.
I make a ton more than my father, and was born around 1970.

don't fall into the same trap as the UK by Chrisq · 2012-09-21 00:19 · Score: 3, Interesting

If you pass this bill don't fall into the same trap as the UK. Only allow degrees accredited by Universities with a proven academic record, and not any "overseas branches". Even reputable Universities can be tempted by overseas operations, and it is much harder to deal with after the event after the event.

Bad news for whole tech industry by DoofusOfDeath · 2012-09-21 00:19 · Score: 2

Now where are they going to find those rare Java programmers who will work at "reasonable" rates?

Not really by voss · 2012-09-21 00:30 · Score: 5, Insightful

When smart people with the means to immigrate come to this country Its a benefit to us even to American smart people. The idea
that immigration depresses wages is based on flawed static economic models. Immigration to the US goes down when unemployment goes up.

I want you techies to view it this way. When immigrants from asia come to this country they have little asian girls, who grow up to be
asian hotties who like marrying nerds who produce the holy grail the eurasian hottie who likes nerds.

More visas now= generations of asian and eurasian hotties for your grandsons(or granddaughters...I support equal rights for lgbt folks)

Re:Not really by Stirling+Newberry · 2012-09-21 00:37 · Score: 4, Informative

Your statement is categorically incorrect. STEM visas are employment based, and specifically designed to be better versions of the H1-B Visa, that is, guest worker type employment.
Immigration doesn't have to depress wages, just as Free Trade doesn't have to, but that is what it is being designed to do. The Democratic bill is marginally better in that it at least as a review of the effects of STEM visas.

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Fugue for Aaron Swartz
Re:Not really by lorenlal · 2012-09-21 01:40 · Score: 1, Insightful

First off... I applaud you sir. This post made my morning that much better. Thank you.
Secondly, with the immigration of STEM folks, I'd be willing to bet that many of these workers will demand comparable wages, because they know what the market is offering and there is a cost of living here to do those jobs. We can look at short term costs, and experience, and say that there are some otherwise perfectly capable geeks here who are still looking for jobs... And there are. The thing is... STEM unemployment as of June is 4.7% (assuming college degree, YMMV), which is pretty darn near what those economic models call "full employment." It sounds to me like the benefit of bringing in more geeks (like having a more educated society, more demand for arts, spending power, and those eurasian hotties on the horizon) would do more help for the economy than harm.
I might be biased too though... After all... parent did put forth a convincing argument.
Re:Not really by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-21 03:29 · Score: 1

These "STEM visas" are green cards, which allow these people to stay permanently in the US. Although employment is needed for sponsor, they are in no way guest-worker type.
Re:Not really by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-21 04:01 · Score: 1

I disagree that this benefits America or Americans. I think it further reduces wages and increases competition in a very small field, which de-incentivizes Americans, but is still attractive to Asians who still see it as a step up. The reality is we have too MANY techies, mostly operating beneath their potential because what we actually need are a large number of technologically educated MBAs, an even larger number of technicians but a very small number of STEM types.
But trade schools in the US are sneered upon, and anyone without a college degree is treated like shit, so no one wants that. MBA types know better than to get drawn into the mud of having to produce measurable results for a living. So we try to hire a bunch of STEM types we don't need, slap an "engineer" label on them and give them a supply chain to manage or an asian boardhaus to oversee. Most people hate that passionately and compete bitterly for the very few good engineering jobs that are actually available (and usually found by word of mouth), and end up regretting their degree and steering their children into other professions.
Issuing visas & H1Bs doesn't help us, it just makes the market more depressing. This bill and the democrat version SHOULD fail as it's just another example of real life class warfare being waged against us (by BOTH parties, not just the one we usually blame). The irony that the system was working for us when the individuals involved were trying so hard to work against us makes me smile.
Re:Not really by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-21 04:15 · Score: 2, Informative

4.7% unemployment rate also includes the tens of thousands of us that are in "alternative" careers like working at the Gap. There is lower unemployment for programmers. Take them out of the STEM group and the un/underemployment rate is deep into the double digits. Defeat of this bill is an extremely good thing. We already have tens of thousands of STEM workers with advanced degrees and years of experience who are long term unemployed. We need instead the crafting of bills to deport excess foreign STEM workers and more importantly bills to strictly limit the gross overproduction of STEM graduates by our universities. That and jobs training bills since an advanced degree in science does not put you on a track to gainful employment. Research (public and private) has imploded. Teachers are in year five or so of what is essentially a hiring freeze. Patent law is splitting at the seams with broke and desperate JDs...and PhD/JDs that flooded law school in the late 2000's when pharma collapsed.

Face it: yesterday's underwater basket weaving degree is today's science Ph.D. Now you'll excuse me as I must go off to work. The lunch rush is starting soon and I am Dr. Burgerflipper, Ph.D.
Re:Not really by lorenlal · 2012-09-21 08:03 · Score: 2

That is totally fair. I do not know what STEM employment would be if programmers are excluded. If I remember right, there is something like 30% unemployment for people with a Ph.D. in Math, but I do not know what the figure is... I'm having a hard time finding a real number too... I know.. Irony.
I don't think the outcome of this bill would have had much effect on people on the level of a Ph D. My understanding is most of these Visas are for folks in the Bachelor/Masters range (which means these workers compete against me). The big issue facing a Ph D today is the fact that education spending has been reduced for over a decade. I don't necessarily think that getting a PhD is any easier today than it was long ago... Just more people trying to avoid entering the workforce in a tough time... Oh, and less opportunities once you get that high because public education opportunities are fewer and farther between.
Re:Not really by epyT-R · 2012-09-21 13:45 · Score: 1

When smart people with the means to immigrate come to this country Its a benefit to us even to American smart people.

No, they're competitors. There aren't enough 'smart people' jobs to go around.

The idea that immigration depresses wages is based on flawed static economic models.
Says who? The crapola I've read suggests there's a lot of disagreement here, most of which correlates with party lines. That doesn't bode well for ANY of the studies.

I want you techies to view it this way. When immigrants from asia come to this country they have little asian girls, who grow up to be
asian hotties who like marrying nerds who produce the holy grail the eurasian hottie who likes nerds.
So it's alright if these American 'techies' get their asses canned for cheap asian labor because they'll have access to asian pussy? Wow, that's pathetic.
Re:Not really by HappyEngineer · 2012-09-21 14:44 · Score: 1

Regardless of the effect on wages, I personally believe that hoarding the smart people of the world is a definite long term positive. If I had my way I'd allow unlimited immigration for anyone who could demonstrate high level skill in any field.

Perhaps it'd depress wages for high skill jobs, but I suspect it would also lead to an explosion of innovation in all fields.

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Cow Cube
Re:Not really by HappyEngineer · 2012-09-21 14:49 · Score: 1

The number of jobs isn't fixed. Let in the startup/small business entrepreneurs and the number of jobs increases. There's a reason why the unemployment rate doesn't reach 50% when the size of the population doubles.

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Cow Cube
Re:Not really by epyT-R · 2012-09-21 17:24 · Score: 1

New jobs come from demand.. how can demand increase when the population buying the goods is supplanted? Right now there are already more available workers than there are jobs.. Bringing in immigrants to train at our universities instead of training out of work americans to take these jobs isn't right.

Possibly relevant by ryzvonusef · 2012-09-21 00:32 · Score: 5, Informative

An analysis of whom the US lets in, versus other countries (Short article, has two infographics):

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/08/27/160110929/immigration-who-the-u-s-lets-in-and-why

Spoiler:
The short answer: The U.S. mostly lets in family members of people who are already in this country. Other developed countries focus much more on letting in workers.

--
I am an ACCA student. Got a query on Accountancy/Finance? Maybe I can help!

Re:Possibly relevant by fermion · 2012-09-21 03:03 · Score: 3, Insightful

So we want to transfer who we let in from families to those who will maximize profits for business. I suppose this is a tough choice for conservatives. Are we here to be family focused, or are we here because corporations are people.
The reality is that in America we must protect the family, and we must realize that the business of America is bidness. This is why I thought the dream act made so much sense. We have kids who have gone through a US education system, and who are ready for college or trade school. In many schools they are receiving very good SEM prep educations, and they are very motivated to study. If they finish college and get a job, why not let them stay. Why does it make more sense to import adults?
Here is my theory on the current status. Talking to am executive at a major multinational, it seems the H!B was primarily used for multinationals to assign workers, often temporarily, to the US, and but winter and summer resorts to gain skilled employees, usually ski instructors and the like. It boomed with IT looking for skilled workers and realizing that H1B visa workers were cheaper and in effect became indentured servants for the length of the time it took them to get a green card. This is the same thing with teach for america. Two years of guaranteed work without complaint, then leaving before one is vested.

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"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black

Missing from summary by necro81 · 2012-09-21 00:33 · Score: 4, Informative

Missing from the summary, which would help explain why the bill failed, was the fact that the 55,000 greencards for STEM would be taken from the pool that is used for granting greencards (by lottery) to people in other countries that just want to come to the U.S. In other words, in trying to retain these students, the Republicans wanted to sharply reduce the number of just-plain-ordinary immigrants coming from, say, Ghana, Poland, and Brazil. Competing legislation would have left the greencard lottery pool intact, and simply allocated a new block of 55,000 greencards specifically for advanced degree recipients.

Re:Gridlock is real by flyingsquid · 2012-09-21 00:38 · Score: 5, Insightful

If they cant agree on something as trivial as this, it appears that stopping this freight train before reaching fiscal cliff is a very real impossibility.

Perhaps. But before people go blaming Congress for all the problems with government, consider that congressmen, for the most part, are just doing whatever it takes to get re-elected. The Tea Partiers, for example, were elected on the promise that they wouldn't compromise, wouldn't work with the other side, and wouldn't let the Democrats and Obama ever accomplish anything. And they've lived up to those promises.

The American people are as much to blame as anyone. We constantly demonize the other side and our politics are increasingly polarized, we have special TV programs and web sites that reflect our own biased worldview back at us, and we elect people based on this worldview. Then we act surprised and disappointed when the people we elect can't ever get any legislation passed.

Re:Gridlock is real by __aaltlg1547 · 2012-09-21 00:46 · Score: 1

Passing a regular tax and or spending bill in the lame duck session is actually a good deal easier than passing a bill with any controversial provision in a pre-election session under no-debate, no-amendments 2/3 majority to pass rules. And there's no big incentive to get any kind of a visa bill passed right now. Seriously, how many of their constituents does this affect in the near term? NONE. So the bill was all about political maneuvering before the election so Rs could attempt to make a case that DS are anti student or anti business.

The party of NO by tekrat · 2012-09-21 00:46 · Score: 1

So, Republicans are so accustomed to blocking or voting down bills in the house that they have ended this bill that they themselves have started. How ironic.

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If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.

Re:The party of NO by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-21 03:03 · Score: 1

What makes you think that the Republicans blocked this bill?
The Congressional record.
I'll explain it to you, since it's not immediately obvious. This bill was introduced by the GOP, and they waited until the Suspension Calendar to submit it. This means instead of the normal number of votes needed to pass, which they easily had, it requires a 2/3's majority, which they do not have. The bulk of the bill matches what the Dems wanted, but they made sure to include some things which they knew the Dems would not vote for. Specifically, it takes visas away from the "lottery" pool which tend to go towards people not as highly skilled: i.e. middle/lower class immigrants.
Now, if the Dems had voted in favor of the bill, the GOP could have used that as election ammunition: They could claim the Dems voted to take Visas away from immigrants, just as one example.
But if the Dems voted it down (which they did) now the GOP can claim the Dems are against giving Visas to foreigners.
It's called a win-win situation, the goal of the bill was not to address visas. Rather, it was carefully planned as fodder for the election cycle.
Now, don't go getting mad at me and claiming I'm a rabid Dem or something. Both sides pull this shit all the damn time, and we'll just be seeing and hearing more bullshit just like it as November approaches.
Re:The party of NO by ZeroSumHappiness · 2012-09-23 02:51 · Score: 1

I think that's a very fair assessment of the situation, but that's not the Republicans /blocking/ the bill. That's the Republicans introducing a bill that is neither capable of nor intended to pass. There's a difference there and to claim this is Republicans blocking the bill /or/ Democrats blocking the bill is to do a disservice to the citizens because the connotations associated are then wrong.
Also, it takes away from the Diversity Lottery, which is an odd lottery among the visas since it gives visas to France instead of to Mexico or Ecuador or other countries that are economically in the crapper and if France doesn't use all its Diversity Lottery visas those visas go to waste. Personally, I think that we should drop the Diversity Lottery and move those visas to general lottery visas /and/ add STEM visas.

Re:Gridlock is real by h4rr4r · 2012-09-21 00:58 · Score: 3, Insightful

This is trivial?
Bringing cheap workers to replace the only jobs not yet outsourced is a trivial thing?

Fucking insane by acoustix · 2012-09-21 01:02 · Score: 2, Insightful

We have high unemployment. We have had over 48 straight months of our labor force participation rate falling. We have also had a record number of people in college or go back to college in the last 3 years.

Why are we trying to bring in MORE PEOPLE that will take jobs away from US CITIZENS???

Jesus tap dancing Christ!

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"A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson

Re:Fucking insane by Cigarra · 2012-09-21 01:40 · Score: 2, Insightful

Because those people (highly skilled / educated immigrants) just happen to also CREATE more jobs than your beloved "US CITIZENS". So in the long run, even lazy asses who only complain about "they taking errr jerbs" get to benefit as well.

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I don't have a sig.
Re:Fucking insane by Ryanrule · 2012-09-21 02:06 · Score: 1

Stem pay is still VERY low compared to how valuable the work is. The mbas won't let the money flow down.
Re:Fucking insane by oh_my_080980980 · 2012-09-21 02:09 · Score: 1

Hey douche bag - they are importing students with visas which means when the visa expires they go home. So instead of educating someone living in America, who would get a job, pay taxes and spend money here, thereby growing the economy, you are going to bring in a foreign student, educate them and send them back to their country.

Nice...
Re:Fucking insane by acoustix · 2012-09-21 02:10 · Score: 4, Informative

Video proof that we have companies finding ways to disqualify American workers in favor of cheap immigrant labor.

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"A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
Re:Fucking insane by acoustix · 2012-09-21 02:10 · Score: 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU

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"A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
Re:Fucking insane by oh_my_080980980 · 2012-09-21 02:11 · Score: 1

Actually it's underemployment. There's a need for more people which could be filled if we bothered to educate people who are currently unemployed....
Re:Fucking insane by acoustix · 2012-09-21 02:11 · Score: 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU

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"A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
Re:Fucking insane by oh_my_080980980 · 2012-09-21 02:13 · Score: 2

You haven't met this people have you...these are STEM jobs douche bag. Which means they will work for a corporation not start one. Having a STEM degree doesn't mean you have financial means or business knowledge to start a business.
Re:Fucking insane by acoustix · 2012-09-21 02:27 · Score: 1

Actually it's underemployment. There's a need for more people which could be filled if we bothered to educate people who are currently unemployed....
You must not have read my entire post then. I specifically state a record number of people in college and returning to college. There was money in the stimulus bill that provided for retraining and advanced degrees. Many states also encouraged retraining and advanced degrees. We saw enrollment numbers surge across the nation. But instead we will give the jobs away to foreigners.
Awesome!

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"A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
Re:Fucking insane by Bigby · 2012-09-21 02:47 · Score: 1

True. But they will have to eventually. There are too many MBAs.
Re:Fucking insane by Cajun+Hell · 2012-09-21 03:28 · Score: 1

Why are we [allowing] MORE PEOPLE that will take jobs away from US CITIZENS???
FTFY.
The answer: because this is America, and freedom is more important than whatever it is that the Central Committee is telling today, you about their economic plan.
If you don't like American ideals, then go back to Cuba or North Korea. I don't know why you ever applied for your green card at all.

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"Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
Re:Fucking insane by serialband · 2012-09-21 03:49 · Score: 2

The foreign students don't come here for free. They pay full tuition price and buy food and spend money. It's not like we subsidize them.
In fact, they're subsidizing the local students. They usually pay the higher fees while they're here. Local students, at least in the western states have a lot of it covered, although that's becoming less true. It makes up for the shortages in income that the "public" universities are suffering from the long term privatization efforts started around the time of Gov. Reagan.
Re:Fucking insane by LordLimecat · 2012-09-21 04:28 · Score: 1

This thread was a wonderful demonstration of what the problem with todays politics are.
Re:Fucking insane by lexsird · 2012-09-21 04:38 · Score: 2, Interesting

Here is the problem with that; we're producing bumper crops of retarded kids. Yes, the Facebook dwelling, console gaming, dope smoking idiots that we produce are hardly capable of delivering pizza. Do you know what our education systems focus on? SPORTS, yes indeed. Fuck math, science and all that jazz, little Johnny needs to worry about ball games, that's his ticket. We can produce some modern gladiators but it seems little else with our fucked in the head priorities.
You can blame a lot of factors for this, and it's been happening for about two generations, education and the quality of people we produce is in a free fall decline. We shouldn't be importing brains, we should be exporting them. But we're not, we're fucked. Go to the hospitals and see who's working on you these days. Everyone you see has a thick accent, and guess why? We can't fill these positions with "white people" because they're too fucking retarded for the jobs.
Go find you an old professor to talk to about this and be ready for an earful. They will tell you about how we used to have standards and now we just pass them on through for the money. If you flunk them like they should be, you will be out of a job. This kind of insanity starts way before college in k-12, when little Johnny flunks something and the parents get a lawyer and sue you for flunking their little precious. K-12 is a babysitting service not an education system. Their first years in college if not more, are used to fill in what the fuck they should already know.
We as a society do NOT value education near as much as we should. It's fucking shameful. AND here's a bitch about the numbers. India and China each prospectively produce more honor students than we produce in students period. Did you catch that? Let me repeat it. They each have more honor students than we have students. How the fuck do you think that is going to play out in the future?
Not to mention our politics are killing us. We have even dumber people in politics. We aren't in "fix it" mode, we are in "pillage and run for the hills" mode. Industrialism is dead here, it's about pillaging natural resources before anyone figures out just how fucked we are. Why? Because manufacturing and labor couldn't come to some kind of a truce where one wasn't burning the other to the fucking ground. Manufacturing took their ball and went home with the help of bought and paid for politicians who opened the door for them to trot the fuck out of the country. Now American labor is standing around with their cock in their hands wonder WTF happened.
It's all seriously fucked because the ecology of the economy is broken and like a tree that's roots have been chopped up, it's all dead wood, waiting for a storm to blow it over into a heap. Well, guess what? The old myth of our economy being best during a war was trotted out and it fell flat on it's face as we are now so far in debt for that epic stupidity, that we will never see light again in our lifetimes. Yes indeed, we shot our wads on two shit for brains backwater countries that do absolutely NOTHING for our money, but keep draining our wallets, and fucking up our best kids.
In the mean time, we have a political puppet show of two asshole parties that have proven to be nothing but political whores for whomever pays them the most. Either side would rather watch the country burn to the ground than hand the other a bucket of water to put it out. It's all about the God damned money and power for them, they are nothing but fucking puppets, jumping for whatever asshole entity that wants to pillage us some more. Face it, the rich here can see the ship is sinking and like rats they are abandoning ship. They wring every last dime they can out of us on the way out and down.
It's looking like the Great Depression for many of our people. We're bailing water, not steaming ahead. These visas aren't a fix, they are a patch to stop the air leaking from our tires so we can get to the gas station, which is closed. Do you think it's going to get better? The babyboome

--
Take the Red Pill.
Re:Fucking insane by pwizard2 · 2012-09-21 05:20 · Score: 1

You pretty much nailed what's wrong with this country. Mod parent up.

--
"It is a denial of justice not to stretch out a helping hand to the fallen; that is the common right of humanity."
Re:Fucking insane by Urza9814 · 2012-09-21 05:47 · Score: 1

More people in college does not necessarily mean more people being highly educated...too many easy As and MBAs...
Re:Fucking insane by Urza9814 · 2012-09-21 05:50 · Score: 1

...and having an MBA you may have the business knowledge but that doesn't mean shit if you don't have a product to sell...
Point being, it doesn't matter what the degree is, either way you're going to need some extra knowledge. Just because you have a degree that implies you can actually build shit doesn't mean you can't possibly know how to make a business from it. Personally I'd say it puts you in a better place than someone with a business degree, because then you can actually have a product or at least proof of concept ready BEFORE you need to go find funding, plus you can make sure your product isn't a piece of shit -- because if it's shit, it doesn't really matter how good your marketing is.
Re:Fucking insane by TheSync · 2012-09-21 06:09 · Score: 1

these are STEM jobs douche bag. Which means they will work for a corporation not start one. Having a STEM degree doesn't mean you have financial means or business knowledge to start a business.
Immigrant business founders tended to be highly educated - 96% held bachelor's degrees and 74% held graduate or postgraduate degrees, with 75% of these degrees in STEM fields (i.e. your "douche bags").
The vast majority of these company founders didn't come to the United States as entrepreneurs - 52% came to study, 40% came to work, and 5.5% came for family reasons. Only 1.6% came to start companies in America.
In a quarter of the U.S. science and technology companies founded from 1995 to 2005, the chief executive or lead technologist was foreign-born. In 2005, these companies generated $52 billion in revenue and employed 450,000 workers. In some industries, the numbers were much higher; in Silicon Valley, the percentage of immigrant-founded startups had increased to 52%.
Re:Fucking insane by Mr.+Sanity · 2012-09-21 16:40 · Score: 1

My kingdom for some mod points. This corporate atrocity is far more hideous than goatse.

Re:Gridlock is real by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-21 01:25 · Score: 2, Insightful

Don't you hate it when politicians do what they said they would?

Re:Gridlock is real by JackieBrown · 2012-09-21 01:29 · Score: 2, Insightful

Well, when the other side shows you nothing but disdain and resorts to constant name calling (tea baggers) for 3 years, what compromises do you expect to be reached? Honestly, the only compromise the democrats seem willing to do is with the more "conservative" democrats.

Re:Gridlock is real by interkin3tic · 2012-09-21 01:46 · Score: 1, Insightful

The American people are as much to blame as anyone.

Oh, don't worry: I hold them in even lower estimation than anyone elected to congress. Thing is I have no way of controlling them or voting them out. A hoard of ignorant fellow voters is a constant, the elected on the other hand can sometimes be changed for the better.

Re:Gridlock is real by Baloroth · 2012-09-21 01:58 · Score: 4, Insightful

Don't you hate it when politicians do what they said they would?

Well, that is the opposite of what we generally expect them to do.

--
"None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton

Re:Gridlock is real by interkin3tic · 2012-09-21 02:36 · Score: 2

Er... that should be "horde." Probably a sign from the universe that I should re-evaluate whether or not I'm part of the ignorant voters...

Top Countries using DV by mystikkman · 2012-09-21 02:38 · Score: 1

From http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/imm_us_vis_lot_win-immigration-us-visa-lottery-winners

Showing latest available data. Rank Countries Amount
# 1 Nigeria: 7,145 US visa lottery winners
# 2 Ghana: 7,040 US visa lottery winners
# 3 Ethiopia: 6,353 US visa lottery winners
# 4 Kenya: 5,721 US visa lottery winners
# 5 Poland: 5,467 US visa lottery winners
# 6 Bangladesh: 5,126 US visa lottery winners
# 7 Morocco: 5,069 US visa lottery winners
# 8 Ukraine: 4,494 US visa lottery winners
# 9 Nepal: 4,259 US visa lottery winners
# 10 Egypt: 4,189 US visa lottery winners

Re:Top Countries using DV by Tenebrousedge · 2012-09-21 04:48 · Score: 1

I hope so. I could have used those things immediately when I lived abroad. You start contributing to the economy immediately. That sort of thing encourages people to stick around, and not just any people -- it takes some determination, intelligence, and luck to move to a different country.
I've had the shoe on the other foot. You should try it sometime. Things look very different.

--
Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
Re:Top Countries using DV by TheSync · 2012-09-21 05:57 · Score: 3, Informative

Does anyone what these people do after coming to the US? Are they instantly eligible for food stamps, social security benefits, medicare/medicaid, unemployment etc. ?
1) You generally need to work for one year before you can get unemployment benefits for being laid off.
2) You are eligible for premium-free Part Medicare A if you are age 65 or older and you or your spouse worked and paid Medicare taxes for at least 10 years.
3) The Affordable Care Act of 2010, signed by President Obama on March 23, 2010, creates a national Medicaid minimum eligibility level of 133% of the federal poverty level ($29,700 for a family of four in 2011) for nearly all Americans under age 65. This Medicaid eligibility expansion goes into effect on January 1, 2014. Undocumented immigrants are not eligible for Medicaid regardless of their income, and legal immigrants who have resided in the U.S. for less than five years are also not eligible, though states have the option of extending Medicaid coverage to legal immigrant children and pregnant women who are in the 5-year waiting period.
4) For Social Security, most qualified aliens are ineligible for SSI until they become U.S. citizens. Moreover, a worker must have 10 years of Social Security-covered employment to be eligible for retirement benefits.
5) Non-citizens like tourists and students are generally not eligible for SNAP (food stamps). Non-citizens who must meet an additional condition need only meet ONE of the following conditions to be eligible for SNAP: 5 years of residence, 10 years of work, children under 18, blind or disabled, elderly born on or before 8-22-31 who lawfully resided in the U.S. on 8-22-96, or active duty in the military.

Did You See the Daily Show? by mx+b · 2012-09-21 03:02 · Score: 5, Insightful

The Daily Show the other night had a funny little piece where they talked to republicans and democrats at the national conventions to ask them how to overcome gridlock. It results in an orgy of insults directed at the other party, from both sides, that amused me pretty well.

I know it is a comedy show and perhaps can't be taken too seriously, but having family spread out between both parties, I can say it was fairly accurate in my experience. Both sides want to say that the world would be a magical fairy land if only the other side wasn't made up of complete jackasses that are only out to fuck up the plans of the other party.

In sum: yes, Tea Party has been made fun of it. But how did the Tea Party start? There's a constant bashing of Obama as a socialist and democrats as wanting to propogate a lazy welfare state. O-bum-a, Commrade Obama, I've heard it all. Name calling is on both sides, and is the main problem with our gridlock. There are groups in each party that are so desperately out to smear the other side that we never get a real debate. Personally, I do not agree with much of what the republican platform says this time around, but there is an important difference between not agreeing and going out of my way to insult people of the other party. I am sure that the majority of common people in each party (many politicians excluded) absolutely mean well for the country, and believe their platform really will be best. No secret agenda to give money to lazy welfare queens, or give tax breaks to rich people. The majority of voters aren't thinking that; they are thinking, what plan seems best to get the country going again?

When the everyday people recognize this, that just because the other approximately half of the country doesn't vote the same as you DOES NOT mean they are unpatriotic jackasses out to ruin the country, then perhaps we can get somewhere. But this is going to have to be a team effort from both parties. And I am sad to say that the current older generations of the country seem to prefer the gridlock and blame, or at least are stuck in this idea that "that's the way it is". I hope this will change with the younger generations as they start taking over congressional seats.

Re:Did You See the Daily Show? by LordLimecat · 2012-09-21 04:06 · Score: 1

I know it is a comedy show and perhaps can't be taken too seriously,

Despite the comedy nature and Jon Stewart's heavy left-leaning, hes a pretty insightful dude. Ive heard hes moderately popular because of that, in fact.

Some info about bills by parkinglot777 · 2012-09-21 03:27 · Score: 1

Here are the list of 3 bills proposed by different politicians. Each of them have advantages and disadvantages in their own reasons.

Bill from Rep. Lamar Smith (R-Texas) -- http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9231276/Republicans_ready_STEM_Jobs_Act_

- Replace DV lottery program with STEM visa
- Only those who obtained a doctorate or master degree from a U.S. university (or those who obtained a doctorate from a foreign university) are eligible, including courses/programs taking from online
- Allow those who graduated from for-profit schools to participate with some level of criteria set. - The candidate must be physically present in the U.S.
- The process to obtain the visa is similar to the process to obtain a green card
- The candidate must work with the employer at least 5 years
- Doctorate holders has higher priority when apply.
- Employers and occupation of the job must be listed on Department of Homeland Security website.

Bill from Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D-Calif.) -- http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9231295/Democrats_produce_rival_STEM_visa_bill

- Instead of replacing the DV lottery program, create a new green card program called EB-6.
- Let the new program run for 2 years, and then let lawmakers reassess whether to continue it.
- Not allow for-profit schools into the program.
- The pay must be considered from experience level, not from prevailing wage.

Bill from U.S. Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-NY) -- http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9231377/Schumer_to_introduce_own_STEM_visa_bill?taxonomyId=70

- Similar to Lofgren but allow for-profit schools.

Re:Gridlock is real by LordLimecat · 2012-09-21 03:29 · Score: 2

Trent Lott in an NPR interview once said that the advent of always on media coverage of politics was one of the best, and worst, things to happen to our political system.

(Best because yay transparency, worst because it polarizes the two sides: reaching across the aisle now risks branding you as a traitor / RINO / "fake democrat" / whatever else)

Re:Gridlock is real by RabidReindeer · 2012-09-21 03:42 · Score: 2

Er... that should be "horde." Probably a sign from the universe that I should re-evaluate whether or not I'm part of the ignorant voters...

Oh, I don't know, isn't hoarding ignorant voters more commonly referred to as "playing to the base"?

Are you sure? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-21 03:46 · Score: 1

Your statement is comical and full of crap. Here's why:

*An of these visa's including the current permanent residency Employment based visas are issued only after the sponsoring company shows proof that there was not a US citizen/existing permanent resident that they could find to fill the position. This is called PERM labor certification. The process is randomly audited to prevent fraud.
2. There are 86,275 tech jobs listed on just Dice.com as of today. If you are not eligible to be hired for any of these jobs, that's your problem.
3. Using any standard assessment tests may sound important to ordinary folks who know nothing about programming/computers but the fact is less than 20% of all programming job interviews require a standard assessment. That is because most jobs are easy to fill just basing on a one or more rounds of technical interviews.

Re:Gridlock is real by LordLimecat · 2012-09-21 04:08 · Score: 1

We dont have an AAA rating.

Re:Rediculous by LordLimecat · 2012-09-21 04:30 · Score: 2

Take it up with the constitution.

To clarify by Chrisq · 2012-09-21 04:36 · Score: 1

If you pass this bill don't fall into the same trap as the UK. Only allow degrees accredited by Universities with a proven academic record, and not any "overseas branches". Even reputable Universities can be tempted by overseas operations, and it is much harder to deal with after the event after the event.

I realised that it might not be obvious what I'm talking about. Some "low end" educational establishments just become a means to buy a visa rather than teaching the students to any reasonable degree.

Re:Gridlock is real by JaimeZX · 2012-09-21 05:28 · Score: 2

I would hardly call STEM grads "cheap workers." Especially if they want to settle down in the US, they're probably the most valuable immigrants we can get our hands on. Far better than bringing the foreigners here, letting them get their advanced STEM degrees, then kicking them back to their home countries. That's brilliant when combined with the majority of American kids who majored in liberal arts. (I'm one of those...)

My apologies by voss · 2012-09-21 05:31 · Score: 1

Afro-asian girls and hispanic-asian girls are all good too.
In our utopian nerd tech future....EVERYONE GETS SOME!

Re:oh yeah, real popular by icebraining · 2012-09-21 05:56 · Score: 1

"Uuh, I can't compete, save me government!"

--
Dilbert RSS feed

Re:oh yeah, real popular by TheSync · 2012-09-21 06:03 · Score: 2

So to all those foreign students with high education degrees, GET THE HELL OUT

Not entirely sure why they should get out instead of you.

I couldn't get a job as a programmer for 3 years despite beating 82% of all programmers

Maybe you are just an annoying person...you certainly sound like one!

What about citizens that are already here? by guyniraxn · 2012-09-21 06:25 · Score: 1

Someone remind, what's wrong with employing all the desperately unemployed STEM citizens with advanced degrees already in the US? There are plenty of STEM grads with masters and phds who are willing to settle for low wages just to get a foot in the door and have some experience to put on a resume. If the people who are born here are really so bad, why not just move all those companies (or at least STEM operations) to someplace "preferable" and take cost of living out of the equation entirely?

Re:Gridlock is real by epyT-R · 2012-09-21 13:33 · Score: 1

Why would we want more immigrants flooding our best universities? We need more americans there! That would help the US education problem. I find it hilarious that leftists want more money spent on US public schools, more restrictions on private schools, yet at the university level, they want to bring in more foreigners.

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