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Google Could Face Heavy Antitrust Fines In the EU

SquarePixel writes "Europe's competition watchdog is considering formal proceedings against Google over antitrust complaints about the way it promotes its own services in search results, potentially exposing the company to a fine of 10 percent of its global turnover. Google is accused of using its search service to direct users to its own services and to reduce the visibility of competing websites and services. If the Commission found Google guilty of breaking E.U. competition rules, it could restrict Google's business activities in Europe and fine the company up to 10 percent of its annual global revenue (US$37.9 billion last year)."

180 of 292 comments (clear)

  1. Re:Google is Evil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Can you give an example in relation to their promoting their own services through their search engine? The first thing I tried to test it was searching for "maps" on Google search and sure enough Google Maps came up first. But then I tried searching for "maps" on Bing and it also gave me Google maps first so maybe Google maps is just a good first result for that. I'm sure there must be other search terms that demonstrate a problem though, so what might be worth trying?

  2. Re:Google is Evil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Google+. It mixes with your results.

  3. EU are on crack by viperidaenz · · Score: 2, Informative

    Even if Google does what they suggest, Why is it illegal for a company to promote itself over others on the services it provides for free. If you don't like Google, don't use their services. It's not a requirement.

    1. Re:EU are on crack by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Read up on rules on monopolies. If you have a dominant position in one area and use that to gain an advantage in other areas, that's when you are in trouble. If no such rules were in place, the natural evolution would be that one company crushing all the others. Be thankful that that this is happening. It's good for you in the end.

    2. Re:EU are on crack by buchner.johannes · · Score: 1

      Even if Google does what they suggest, Why is it illegal for a company to promote itself over others on the services it provides for free. If you don't like Google, don't use their services. It's not a requirement.

      Google makes money (a lot of money) from advertisement. So it's not really "free" in the sense that Google does something good for you.

      It would be another story if Google wasn't the dominating search engine. It's exactly like Microsofts browser story -- leveraging costumers into associated products. Google can push G+ to its users and draw them from Facebook, just because they have the best search engine. This leveraging is what is illegal (for a monopoly). If 2-3 companies are competing, it would be fine.

      --
      NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.
    3. Re:EU are on crack by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm not clear as to how Google is a monopoly. It does not control the physical or electronic structure of the Internet. Web searching certainly cannot be considered a natural monopoly. It can't stop competing web services.

      So how can Google maintain any kind of abusive monopoly.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    4. Re:EU are on crack by Guspaz · · Score: 4, Informative

      They have over 80% of the global search marketshare. That's what makes them a monopoly. There's nothing illegal with being a monopoly, the question is if a company is abusing that monopoly or not.

    5. Re:EU are on crack by Rob+Y. · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Except that nobody's forcing anybody to use Google. In fact, the real monopolist still forces every computer you buy to come with Windows and default you to Bing for searching. And they make it pretty tricky to change. I know, I know. When it works, it's pretty easy to change, but I've never actually seen anybody change the default search engine - even those that still use Google by typing www.google.com into the location bar. And I've seen cases where the search engine choice website hasn't worked at all.

      --
      Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
    6. Re:EU are on crack by MrDoh! · · Score: 2

      Aye, this is all a bit odd to me. It'd be like a Ford car dealership getting in trouble because it's not selling Lada's on the forecourt as well? The competition is complaining that Google isn't showing their competing products? (and which competing products DO go up against Google)? Surely any complaints against Google would apply equally to Bing/Yahoo who also offer advertising/webemail/storage? Very, very odd move, reeks of dodgy dealings behind the scenes rather than actual problems here. Analogy time; "but their cars go faster, it's not fair" "ok Ferrari, you have to slow down your cars so your competition doesn't look as bad" "this library is offering books for free! that's not fair!" "ok libraries, you have to start charging so book stores don't look as bad"

      --
      Waiting for an amusing sig.
    7. Re:EU are on crack by Missing.Matter · · Score: 4, Informative

      You don't even have to be a monopoly to run afowl of antitrust laws; you just have to be able to exert undue influence on market forces. Since Google has a search market share of 70%-80%, promoting their products in those searches has undue influence.

    8. Re:EU are on crack by devleopard · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Remind me again why Microsoft is required to show alternate browsers, when IE is free?

      (They've actually failed and the EU is back after them, but that's besides the point)

      Moreover, a majority of "search" boxes default to Google, as opposed to a customer making a choice. (iOS, Android, FF, Chrome, Safari)

      --
      The best thing about a boolean is even if you are wrong, you are only off by a bit.
    9. Re:EU are on crack by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The point is that with google there can be no lock-in, so they cannot abuse their monopoly in the same way e.g microsoft can because people are free to go to a competitor search engine at the drop of a hat. The moment google does something I don't like, I simply replace my default search engine with another, and off I go.

      (And in fact, google did do something I didn't like, and off I did go).

      No lockin + plenty of competitors = no abuse of monopoly, because people are totally free to leave

    10. Re:EU are on crack by devleopard · · Score: 1

      It's not maintaining. It just is.

      Not to mention the contracts they have (or on what they produce) to be the search box defaults: iOS, Android, Chrome, Firefox, Safari.

      Remember, Microsoft didn't manufacture their own computers, yet had a monopoly.

      --
      The best thing about a boolean is even if you are wrong, you are only off by a bit.
    11. Re:EU are on crack by rtfa-troll · · Score: 1

      I'm not clear as to how Google is a monopoly.

      Try searching with Duck Duck Go. It gets most of its results from Bing. You soon find that the most useful feature is the "!g" command you can mix with your search which redirects it to use Google results. The simple fact is that whilst there are other search engines, there is only one working search engine. Probably the majority of the 20% of search results are just people who don't know how to change their web browser settings or accidental searches by people who have been stuffed with Windows phones by their company (you can't reconfigure the search button at all!!).

      So how can Google maintain any kind of abusive monopoly.

      The "abusive" bit comes when they start to use the monopoly in one place to force their products in another place. As long as they do that at a level which is below the notice of most companies that's perfectly possible. Possibly you are thinking of Microsoft, though. There's a key difference between Google and Microsoft. Nobody is accusing Google of acquiring its monopoly illegally. They simply did the best job at search. Microsoft's monopoly having been illegally acquired was one of the things that the appeals judges supported Judge Jackson over in the Microsoft monopoly trial. Google should not be held to the same standard as Microsoft should be held to.

      --
      =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
    12. Re:EU are on crack by ninetyninebottles · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Except that nobody's forcing anybody to use Google.

      This is completely irrelevant. Whether you have monopoly influence because of a natural advantage (control the only source of something) or you've been granted it by a sovereign nation, or you simply outcompeted everyone else; what matters is what you do with the monopoly. With great power comes great responsibility. When you have this kind of power you can basically break capitalism, profiting from lack of innovation. This is bad for society, so we passed laws about what you can and can't do with that kind of power. If you still don't understand why, look at the history of antitrust law and the horrible abuses that gave rise to these laws.

      In fact, the real monopolist still forces every computer you buy to come with Windows and default you to Bing for searching.

      And the EU has taken several actions against MS for abuses of their desktop OS monopoly and hopefully will take more. How does that man they should not also take action against Google if it turns out Google is breaking those same laws?

    13. Re:EU are on crack by poetmatt · · Score: 1

      It's what the PR companies have said from day one. It's an ignorant and biased view and implies that somehow you don't have a choice other than google - which is a requirement of a monopoly.

      In other words, this article is about nothing and so is the speculation.

    14. Re:EU are on crack by waveclaw · · Score: 2

      So how can Google maintain any kind of abusive monopoly.

      Easy: by being a $3.8 billion per year target for politicians.

      The only obvious crime committed here is being popular and making a lot of money.

      It is sleazy for a company to favor it's own wares on what a naive customer assumes is a fair market. But that is the nature of 'free' markets and naive customers. The only reason anybody assumes the vendor they are dealing with is free of bias is lack of truth, which is just part of the limited, imperfect knowledge players in any real market can obtain. (This excepts toy markets from ECON 101 as they are by definition more imaginary than Internet Spaceships as any player of Eve Online would tell you.)

      Also, Google claims their moto is 'Do no Evil.' Fiddling search results without telling people is pretty much Evil in my book. But Google still has to make money in a world where the DMCA police, the nanny states and the religious nutcases de jour all hold guns to Google's wallet. These politicians are just the last highwaymen along for the ride to get at those purse strings.

      --

      "You cannot have a General Will unless you have shared experiences. You cannot be fair to people you don't know."
    15. Re:EU are on crack by ninetyninebottles · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The point is that with google there can be no lock-in, so they cannot abuse their monopoly in the same way e.g microsoft can because people are free to go to a competitor search engine at the drop of a hat.

      That's not good enough. The point of antitrust law is to keep all markets competitive and driving innovation. For that to happen people have to be free to choose the best search engine for them and the best social network and the best maps, etc. It's not sufficient that they choose the best bundle of those together because it might mean that while we end up with real competition in one market, the other markets are abandoned by innovators because there is no realistic way a better product can win against something tied to the best search platform.

    16. Re:EU are on crack by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      Google pay Apple and Mozilla to be the search engine for iOS, FF and Safari. If Microsoft paid more, they could get Bing there instead. Android may default to Google, but carriers are free to change to their own services if they choose. Chrome is a bit of a different story though

    17. Re:EU are on crack by iserlohn · · Score: 1

      It is not as clear cut as that though - defining how specific a particular market is and how dominant a product is in relation to that market (and what the cross elasticity of supply and demand is) has a huge effect on whether a particular action is in violation of Article 81 or 82.

    18. Re:EU are on crack by jader3rd · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm not clear as to how Google is a monopoly. It does not control the physical or electronic structure of the Internet. Web searching certainly cannot be considered a natural monopoly. It can't stop competing web services.

      So how can Google maintain any kind of abusive monopoly.

      Google can become an abusive monopoly because of where the money comes from. If a competitor tries to enter the market (ad supported services), Google could tell its customers (companies advertising products) that if they work with the Google competitor, Google will stop doing business with them. That would prevent any competition for Google, which would result in EU citizens not having a free market of competing services.

      Oh, and you start out by asking about natural monopolies and then finish with abusive monopolies. Which one are you more concerned about? Please be consistent.

    19. Re:EU are on crack by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Huh? Google supports POP3, IMAP and ICAL. Google Drive has clients that pretty much allow you to move Google Docs files on to your computer, not to mention exporting to several common formats.

      Either you're an ignoramus or a liar.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    20. Re:EU are on crack by ninetyninebottles · · Score: 1

      It is not as clear cut as that though - defining how specific a particular market is and how dominant a product is in relation to that market

      I do believe Google's search market share has already been legally recognized as dominant in the EU, not that there is really any doubt in anyone's mind. Nor do I think we are in gray area with regard to separation of the search and social network or mapping services markets. Sure there is plenty to argue, but I don't think either of those arguments will get Google anywhere. The real question is if they are actually favoring their own services in a meaningful way, which I have not seen anyone yet establish (with the exception of a few smaller instances over the last few years and which have been corrected).

    21. Re:EU are on crack by nospam007 · · Score: 1

      "You don't even have to be a monopoly to run afowl of antitrust laws; you just have to be able to exert undue influence on market forces."

      "Market Forces
      Definition:
      Forces of demand and supply representing the aggregate influence of self-interested buyers and sellers on price and quantity of the goods and services offered in a market. In general, excess demand causes prices and quantity of supply to rise, and excess supply causes them to fall."

      A free service can have a market force? How does that work?

    22. Re:EU are on crack by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      The size of the fine is good IMO - a fine should hurt a lot, so the offender will not want to repeat the offense. After all, if the company can still profit from the illegal activity after paying the fine, it will do so (say that a fine is $1k, but the company got $2k from doing whatever resulted in the $1k fine - this means that the activity gets $1k profit and is worth doing, despite the fine). Fixed sums (say $1M) may destroy small companies but be pocket change for big ones, so making the fine be a part of the money the company makes in a year balances it - a small company makes less and will pay less, and a large company will pay more.

      Actually, in Sweden, fines for violating traffic laws are based on the income of the offender, so one guy will pay 100EUR for parking where it is not allowed and the other might pay 1kEUR for leaving his car in exactly the same place. Too bad this is not so in my country.

      Now, whether Google should be allowed to promote its own services over others in search, here is my opinion: the search is supposed to be neutral. Google can advertise the other services in the menu etc or as ads (similar to the other ads), but not as part of search. Or, if it wants to provide the service of integration (search for an address and have a map pop up), then allow other providers to also add their services and let the user choose which one they want.

    23. Re:EU are on crack by Bengie · · Score: 1

      Last I checked, Google wasn't even 50% of total searches. How can one have a monopoly without even being the majority?

    24. Re:EU are on crack by Bengie · · Score: 1

      They're no where near 80%

    25. Re:EU are on crack by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      Personally, I don't click any of the ads they show me, so I'm not their product either.

    26. Re:EU are on crack by ninetyninebottles · · Score: 1

      I would say that slapping Google with draconian restraints is stifling innovation.

      Google is free to make the best maps or best social network they can. No one is stifling innovation. The only thing they can't do is win in the market not by making the best product, but by tying it to a product that is dominant in a separate market. They can even integrate their maps or social network with their search provided they offer the same functionality to competing maps and social network service providers. How exactly does this prevent innovation in any way?

    27. Re:EU are on crack by Guspaz · · Score: 2

      They're at 66.8% in the US, but much higher elsewhere. In Canada, for example, they're above 80% when you combine google.ca and google.com. I'm seeing 80% or more in the global stats I can find, but most of those are skewed one way or another, so it's really hard to get an accurate picture.

      Market shares can differ significantly even in countries as close as Canada and the US. AIM was, at least a few years ago, the most popular IM network in the US, but had virtually no presence outside the US. Even in Canada, where AOL did have an active presence as an ISP, MSN Messenger was dominant.

      This PDF is now out of date, but it gives you a nice look at the situation for IM market share in 2008:

      http://billionsconnected.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/global_im_market_share_stats_july_08.pdf

      Note how the situation in the US is not reflected in any other country, although some other countries show similar splits. I suspect the figures are quite different these days; I would expect Google Talk and Facebook Messenger to be much more popular these days, in Canada at least.

    28. Re:EU are on crack by khallow · · Score: 1

      For the rest of us, we realize that monopolies do pop up from time to time and in the long term everything will be owned by the same entity if governments don't step in to prevent it.

      That only happens if the entity happens to be a government. Otherwise, you can always create a competitor.

    29. Re:EU are on crack by oztiks · · Score: 1

      It's worse than that!

      I was putting together a sort of "on-the-side" project basically seeing if I could setup my own Web Hosting biz, Cloud Services, PaaS, Zimbra a few other bits and pieces.

      Naturally I was enticed to use Google AdWords for promo. Got myself a $75 (or $50 voucher whatever) had an Google employed Indian call me to setup the account for free. All very good service. Until the ads started going.

      My MAIN competitor in the cloud computing space, IBM, Amazon, these all go without saying but the real pain was Google Business Apps, not only were they no1 for most clicks but to compete it was something ludicrous like $12 per click!

      Google doesn't deserve a 10% revenue reduction but it does deserve a big bitch slap, they should be fined and be forced to remove their OWN ads off their OWN ad service, or at the very least be fair about it all.

    30. Re:EU are on crack by khallow · · Score: 1

      A free service can have a market force? How does that work?

      A free service with pricing power! *bobble bobble*

    31. Re:EU are on crack by microbox · · Score: 1

      The point is that with google there can be no lock-in,

      I agree with that. Google could compromise on the issue a little, but fundamentally it's nothing like what microsoft was doing.

      --

      Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
    32. Re:EU are on crack by microbox · · Score: 1

      It is such a huge PITA to install google as the default search provide in the kiosk internet explorer computers at my university. Seriously, M$ should win awards for the number of clicks and scrolls it takes. It would not surprise me a bit if 90% of people who use bing use it for these reasons: they don't know much about what they are doing, or it is simply too hard to fix.

      --

      Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
    33. Re:EU are on crack by microbox · · Score: 1

      That is highly theoretical.

      --

      Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
    34. Re:EU are on crack by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      You can always create a competing business, but there is never a guarantee that it can successfully compete - and there are plenty situations, some of which we've seen in real world, where a monopoly can jack up the barrier to entry high enough that effectively no-one can compete.

    35. Re:EU are on crack by MrDoh! · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I don't mind admitting that I don't fully get it. Google+ is their product, Google Search is their product, it seems really strange that anyone else can come in and say 'I know you've got your own search, and your own social network, and Facebook won't LET you search their results, but... you preferring your own search results for your own social network, we don't want you to do that' that's kinda obvious being called Google+, seems strange. Does this mean Google isn't allowed to do anything else because they have a search engine? Does Microsoft's If it really IS because of preferring their own search engine, surely the EU should be focusing on Facebook and telling them to allow Google to index their records?

      --
      Waiting for an amusing sig.
    36. Re:EU are on crack by beelsebob · · Score: 1

      Because it's abuse of a monopoly... In typical law, the issue is not having a monopoly, it's using a monopoly in one area to achieve a monopoly in another area...

      Examples:
      Microsoft had an OS monopoly, and used it to achieve a web browser monopoly by bundling the browser with the OS, making it impossible to uninstall and making it repeatedly re-default itself.
      Google has a search monopoly, and are in the process of using it to achieve {a web browser monopoly by sticking chrome adverts on every page | a maps monopoly by pushing google maps results above all others | ...}

    37. Re:EU are on crack by beelsebob · · Score: 1

      The thing is that being a monopoly has nothing at all to do with lock in. The mere fact that 80% of people go to google search means that google can abuse that position to gain monopolies in other areas.

    38. Re:EU are on crack by makomk · · Score: 1

      That's not good enough. The point of antitrust law is to keep all markets competitive and driving innovation. For that to happen people have to be free to choose the best search engine for them and the best social network and the best maps, etc.

      Except in this case it'll have the opposite effect, because people want search engines to actually give them useful information and (this is the kicker) the company leading the anti-trust complaint against Google knows this, because they're a Microsoft subsidiary which provides part of the equivalent functionality in Bing.

    39. Re:EU are on crack by Tom · · Score: 2

      Why

      Your answer is right there in the summary: anti-trust. Do you need to have it spelled out what that means?

      for free

      No, it doesn't. The fact that you don't pay anything does not always mean it is for free. In this case, someone else pays. It is for free to you. It is not for free. There's a difference that matters.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    40. Re:EU are on crack by Tom · · Score: 1

      I'm not clear as to how Google is a monopoly.

      Because it has a de facto control of a particular market. If I am the only producer of X within 1000 miles, then I have a monopoly, even if I don't actively stop anyone from setting up their own X factory. Legally, a monopoly does not require 100% market share, but a "controlling" market share, so I would be a legal monopolist even if there's a few tiny X factories within 1000 miles, but when you go into a shop to buy some X, most of them only stock my product.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    41. Re:EU are on crack by makomk · · Score: 1

      It's entirely relevant, because I'm pretty sure that (as one of the main organisations pushing the EU to fine Google) Microsoft's actually relying on the fact that it's trivial to switch away from Google search in order to benefit from these antitrust actions. If the EU does place restrictions on Google, Bing will suddenly have better search results than Google by virtue of still being allowed to give relevant context-specific results for things like maps. I expect they have the advertising campaign all set up and ready to go - they've already advertised it as a way in which Bing is better than Google, now they can use the EU to make that true.

    42. Re:EU are on crack by makomk · · Score: 1

      Moreover, a majority of "search" boxes default to Google, as opposed to a customer making a choice.

      At least they allow consumers to make a choice. Microsoft's been paying various mobile phone providers to set search on the phones they sell to Bing and not allow users to change it, for instance. They're the only Android phones out there which don't allow you to change your search provider despite Google creating Android.

    43. Re:EU are on crack by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      Web browser maybe, but sticking ads everywhere isn't the same as installing it everywhere. Maps is a part of their search product, so you know, you can search for physical locations. Next thing you'll be saying is Google is using their web search monopoly to push image searching, weather forecasting and calculator services.

    44. Re:EU are on crack by viperidaenz · · Score: 1
      If that's your definition of free, please name one man-made thing that is free.
      The dictionary says:

      provided without, or not subject to, a charge or payment: free parking; a free sample.

      Both examples are paid for be someone else. The local government or a company pays for the car park, the company providing the sample pays for its production - they essentially pay the factory on your behalf.

    45. Re:EU are on crack by beelsebob · · Score: 1

      All that does is shows just how successful google is being in forcing their way into the maps monopoly. Their search product was originally just that, a search product... At that time, people would tend not to use anything other than multimap for their maps. Google by integrating maps into their search, leveraged their search monopoly to gain a maps monopoly. These days, you'll be hard pushed to find a single person who doesn't instantly type maps.google.com if you say "could you bring up a map of that", despite there being a multitude of viable alternatives (e.g. multimap, bing maps, open street map, ...)

      It could even be argued that they're using their dominant position in the smartphone arena to gain a monopoly on turn by turn navigation systems, as evidenced by tom tom's rapid demise at this point.

    46. Re:EU are on crack by blainestereo · · Score: 1

      This is completely irrelevant.

      A definition of what a monoply is is irrelevant? Hmmm. www.bing.com, www.google.com, www.search.yahoo.com, www.ask.com - I can freely use any of the these sites (and many more) to search the web, yet only one of them is a monopolist. How does it work again?

      When you have this kind of power you can basically break capitalism, profiting from lack of innovation.

      So what you are saying is, Google should stop innovating because it stifles innovation? Because that's how they got their "search market share" (what a dumb term, by the way), not by some shady anti-competitive practices.

    47. Re:EU are on crack by khallow · · Score: 1

      and there are plenty situations, some of which we've seen in real world, where a monopoly can jack up the barrier to entry high enough that effectively no-one can compete.

      Perhaps, you could discuss these "real world" situations? I'll warn you though, we'll probably find that your examples will be further evidence against your arguments.

    48. Re:EU are on crack by khallow · · Score: 1

      Not really, creating a competitor that's truly competitive requires more and more funds the more the rest of the market conglomerates into a single entity.

      To the contrary, I find that companies that do too many things, tend to do them poorly. The above entity still has to deal with new companies that do individual parts of its business much better, such as the original manufacture or the shipping components. And knowing that a big company will attempt a hostile takeover, isn't disincentive. One could make good money in that way by repeatedly threatening the big company's primary markets.

      It's not something that ever happens because governments eventually step in out of self interest, but claiming that competitors are guaranteed access to the market just by showing up is ridiculous.

      Then competitors make their own markets. It's not magic.

    49. Re:EU are on crack by osmifra · · Score: 1

      Its not about locking a consumer or not.

      A monopoly is basically when you have more market share than your competitors, it doesn't matter if your clients are clients by choice or are being forced. Having more than 80% of searches is a monopoly by all accounts.

      You could install many operating systems in your computer but most install windows. Windows isn't forcing anyone, they don't won you computer or your hardrive. But they have monopoly.

      Using that monopoly in one line of business to obscure your competitors in other lines of business is not permitted by EU regulations.

    50. Re:EU are on crack by jimmy_dean · · Score: 1

      Absolutely disagree. The only monopolies that exist are governments. Governments are the only ones that can hand out true monopolies to companies. Microsoft in the late 90s early 2000's was a classic example of what was mislabeled a monopoly. Many claimed that IE was too dominant and nobody could shake that. Now look at it (and no, it didn't have anything to do with the US antitrust suit against Microsoft. It had everything to do with Firefox being a formidable competitor and Microsoft getting soft).

      The most telling line of your statement is "Be thankful that this is happening. It's good for you in the end." Well in that case, why don't you give me all of your money because I know (trust me) that I will better manage your money, and even grow your total assets for you! Oh, and you don't have a choice, because after all, it's going to be good for you.

      --
      -> Sometimes, you just gotta break free from the shackles of proprietary code.
    51. Re:EU are on crack by jimmy_dean · · Score: 1

      "For that to happen people have to be free to choose the best search engine"

      Uh...they did...80% of them in Canada did. Are you saying people don't know how to choose?

      --
      -> Sometimes, you just gotta break free from the shackles of proprietary code.
    52. Re:EU are on crack by Elldallan · · Score: 1

      No it's not illegal to have a dominant market share, it's illegal in the EU to use that dominant market share to gain an advantage in a different market.

    53. Re:EU are on crack by Bigby · · Score: 1

      Microsoft Windows isn't free. Google Search is.

    54. Re:EU are on crack by Elldallan · · Score: 1

      EU antitrust legislation isn't focused on monopolies, it's focused on dominant market share which Google certainly have. Yes users have a choice of search engine but Google competitors dun have a choice in which search engine users use and therefore Google derives an advantage in a different market when they link those other services to the search engine.

    55. Re:EU are on crack by Rob+Y. · · Score: 1

      It all depends on whether Google actually has a monopoly. Does the fact that they're the only company that actually makes money off of search count - as long as there are other places that the public can go to search? Bing is currently a loss leader, but then again, so was Google in the beginning. Maybe if Microsoft simply gave up, Google would have a monopoly for access to users, but Bing has a fairly large (and largely unearned - based on monopoly tying that should've been more effectively dealt with) market share. Do we ignore that or not, just because advertisers aren't willing to pay for it (yet).

      --
      Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
    56. Re:EU are on crack by Tom · · Score: 2

      If that's your definition of free, please name one man-made thing that is free.

      You can run semantics if you like, but that wasn't the point.

      Everyone considers Google and many other web services to be free, but they aren't, they are still a for-profit company and they are making shitloads of money on their search engine. That is why all the rules of commercial enterprises apply to them, including anti-trust rules.

      The GP argued the "for free" point as if that would change the laws and rules they need to follow. My point is that it doesn't, because they are a company, not a charity, and anti-trust laws still apply to them. If it were actually "for free" in the sense of a charity giving free food to homeless, I'm fairly sure nobody would apply anti-trust laws just because they happen to be the only charity in the city doing so. And while yes, again the food was paid for by someone else (your semantic point is correct, just irrelevant), the difference between actually giving the food away, and providing a commercial service are important. If, for example, instead of a charity it would be a company that gets paid by the local merchants in order to get the homeless away from their shops, the food would still be free for the homeless, but if that company were to behave anti-competitive, anti-trust laws would apply.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    57. Re:EU are on crack by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      You can start looking at the history of the Sherman Act, and the economic landscape in US prior to its enactment.

    58. Re:EU are on crack by jader3rd · · Score: 1

      That is highly theoretical.

      Actually it's the reason why anti-trust laws were created in the first place. Contracts forbidding you from working with a competitor was business as usual before anti-trust laws were enacted. I'm not saying that Google is doing that, but that's how they'd become a monopoly. What companies try to get away with today isn't out right banning, but will do things like "you can get a %90 discount if you don't work with our competitors".

    59. Re:EU are on crack by gmyuriy · · Score: 1

      monopoly is not about lock-in's friend, it's about one company serving all the searches on the web, and yes, you can abuse this position without lock-ins, just hide more competitive competitor's hits in your search results to drive traffic to your sites and stifle the competitor's... you don't like the monopoly you can always go to competitors -- true of any monopoly except .... there are no suitable competitors, that's why it is called monopoly

    60. Re:EU are on crack by Grumbleduke · · Score: 1

      Iirc their market share of searches in the EU is something like 90% (c.f. 60% in the US).

      Google isn't being accused of stopping competing web services; it is being accused of using its dominance in web search to promote its *other* services, at the expense of its competitors in those other fields (such as maps, shopping, social networks etc.). That's the "abuse" part.

      On the monopoly side, obviously it is trivial for an end user to simply change to a different search engine if they want to, but that's not the problem. The problem is that website operators have to make their sites Google-friendly, or they take a hit in search rankings, page views and thus revenue.

      For example, a while back Google added stuff on the number of "Google +1" things webpages had to their search matrices. Pages with more +1s would be ranked higher than those without. That meant that any site not wanting to take a massive hit (as described above) had to add +1 buttons to all their content. Thus Google was able to use their dominance in search to push their social network.

      Users have a choice (whether they exercise that choice is another matter; it's hard to regulate away user stupidity). Website operators don't. There is your "monopoly".

      [Of course, whether Google actually has a dominant position, whether it is abusing it, whether it is doing so to the detriment of consumers are issues for the EC to investigate and argue before the Courts of Justice of the EU. Whether or not the EU should be banning this sort of abuse of a dominant position is a political issue, for each individual/state/superstate to decide for themselves.]

    61. Re:EU are on crack by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      It is such a huge PITA to install google as the default search provide in the kiosk internet explorer computers at my university. Seriously, M$ should win awards for the number of clicks and scrolls it takes.

      In Microsoft's defense, that's how all their software is. It seems their motto is "never use two clicks when ten will do, and always make the user scroll." It's one of my pet peeves about their poorly designed software. For the life of me I don't understand how MS got a reputation of being user-frindly as they seem to go out of their way to make their products as frustrating as possible. Of course, I can't figure out why some poor people vote Republican, either. Maybe it stems from the same cause?

    62. Re:EU are on crack by Grumbleduke · · Score: 1

      Many claimed that IE was too dominant and nobody could shake that. Now look at it (and no, it didn't have anything to do with the US antitrust suit against Microsoft.

      It might have something to do with the EU competition investigation against Microsoft, though, which forced MS to rework Vista (iirc) onwards so that IE wasn't a crucial component (hence MS updates have their own dialogue screen, rather than going through IE), and forced them to have add a "browser selection" screen to various versions of Windows in the EU (including ones already purchased). But yes, it probably did also have stuff to do with first Firefox, then Chrome (both with Google money behind them, iirc) being superior services.

      Also, the EU doesn't care about monopolies. It is looking for "dominant positions"; in MS's case, it had a dominant position because it controlled the vast majority of the home computer OS market, and was using that to force IE (well, in the actual case it was WMP and its proprietary file-sharing protocols) on consumers. In Google's case, it is accused of abusing its dominant position in search (responsible for something like 80-90% of searches in the EU) to unfairly promote its other services over its competitors.

      As for your second paragraph; that's a political thing, as to whether or not the state (or in the EU's case, the Union) should interfere, and to what degree. However, let's say you did think Google was abusing its position, unfairly, causing you (perhaps as a website operator who needed those search hits to function/generate revenue, but were being punished for not being a Google product, or Google-friendly), what are you alone going to be able to do about it? Nothing remotely effective.

    63. Re:EU are on crack by vakuona · · Score: 1

      Google isn't tying their maps or other services with search. Tying would be if they made it such that you had to use gmail and their maps for you to use their search.

    64. Re:EU are on crack by vakuona · · Score: 1

      So Google is a portal then.

      You go to Google's website, you get links to their properties right there. That is Google's real estate, and they put their best properties right there. The fact that the portal is usually empty doesn't change the fact that it is a portal.

    65. Re:EU are on crack by jimmy_dean · · Score: 1

      "As for your second paragraph; that's a political thing, as to whether or not the state (or in the EU's case, the Union) should interfere, and to what degree. However, let's say you did think Google was abusing its position, unfairly, causing you (perhaps as a website operator who needed those search hits to function/generate revenue, but were being punished for not being a Google product, or Google-friendly), what are you alone going to be able to do about it? Nothing remotely effective."

      Who cares? In your fictitious scenario with Google (which would never happen the way you describe), even if it could be true, Google earned that right to be that dominant. People chose to use Google en masse. Are you (the all-knowing government) going to punish all of the people who chose to use Google and give it the dominant position? What if such an action caused Google such irrevocable harm that it eventually led to it going out of business? Was "justice" served? Or did the most dominant gang (i.e. the prevailing government), exercise its unjust force over a lesser gang (i.e. Google), crushing it? I would say in such a scenario, the government owes a lot of damages to a lot of people.

      What's to stop the EU from systematically only targeting U.S. companies since they seem to be the ones with a lot of money? At what point does it not become completely corrupt and a scheme to steal money from the productive sector into the unproductive sector? I say it is always corrupt.

      --
      -> Sometimes, you just gotta break free from the shackles of proprietary code.
    66. Re:EU are on crack by Grumbleduke · · Score: 1

      Right, and that is something that Google will be arguing; that it isn't offering a dozen separate services, but one single service. The EC will be arguing the opposite. The Court will be left to decide, on all the evidence available to it, which is more likely to be the case.

    67. Re:EU are on crack by Grumbleduke · · Score: 1

      "Who cares?"
      Hence I started that paragraph by noting that it is a political thing. Some people prefer more consumer protection/government regulation etc., some less. The EU is a (fairly) democratic institution (with an elected Parliament, and a Council appointed by the individually elected governments of individual Member States), and has decided to put in place these restrictions. Other countries may wish to do things differently.

      To answer the other questions:
          1) "Are you (the all-knowing government) going to punish all of the people who chose to use Google and give it the dominant position?"
      Under the relevant EU law, it is the undertaking (i.e. Google) which is punished, rather than its users. EU law tends to be purposive, and hinges on underlying principles of proportionality, so if people using Google were indirectly punished disproportionately to the benefit gained by the punishment, that would (probably) be open to appeal.

        2) and 3) What if such an action caused Google such irrevocable harm that it eventually led to it going out of business? Was "justice" served?
      Up to definition of "eventually", then it is likely that would be a disproportionate punishment/interference, thus open to appeal etc. If "justice" wasn't served, it would be an unjust ruling, and thus (probably) illegal.

        4) Or did the most dominant gang..., exercise its unjust force over a lesser gang..., crushing it?
      Interestingly, that is also one of the principles behind competition law; to prevent just that (and in this specific case, Google is accused of using its dominance to exercise unjust force over its competitors, crushing them). It comes down to the definition of "unjust", which is why we have specific laws, and courts, to work out whether or not something is just.

        5) What's to stop the EU from systematically only targeting U.S. companies since they seem to be the ones with a lot of money?
      Firstly, any such targeting it would be restricted to US companies operating within the EU, but more importantly, it would probably be illegal under Article 21 (perhaps combined with Article 16) of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union. So, the law would stop the EU from doing that. Now, if you have a national (or in this case, international) government (so that would be both the Commission, including their staff and relevant Commissioners, the judges on the Court, the relevant national authorities and courts, and probably the Parliament) prepared to willingly, openly and repeatedly break the law, I think you have much more serious problems than a few businesses getting unjustly fined.

        6) At what point does it not become completely corrupt and a scheme to steal money from the productive sector into the unproductive sector?
      I would suggest the point it becomes corrupt is when the law is being used or applied for an improper purpose, but now we are back into political areas of what the purpose should be.

      I say it is always corrupt.
      In that case, I suggest either forgetting about government altogether (if it is hopelessly and indefinitely corrupt) or try to change it yourself.

    68. Re:EU are on crack by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      As soon as bing maps or open street map get brought up to the quality of google maps, I'll contemplate a switch. I don't use their Android navigation software as it doesn't work well on my old CM7 phone. Infact, the maps app in general doesn't, so I use GPS Essentials on my phone and maps.google.com on my desktop.

    69. Re:EU are on crack by beelsebob · · Score: 1

      As soon as bing maps or open street map get brought up to the quality of google maps, I'll contemplate a switch.

      Google maps vladivostok
      OpenStreetMap Vladivostok
      Bing Maps Vladivostok

      What makes you think open street map or bing are not at the quality of google maps? Both have flawed areas, both have extremely well mapped areas.

    70. Re:EU are on crack by khallow · · Score: 1

      The first use of the Sherman Antitrust Act was to break up a recently formed union. It took more than ten years before the act was used for its intended purpose. Even then, most of the monopolies busted were already decaying. Borrowing a lot of money to buy out competitors and create monopolies that only last a few years just isn't that great a business plan.

    71. Re:EU are on crack by KingBenny · · Score: 1

      the fine seems a bit ott though , sometimes i think they just wait long enough before starting an inquiry to make sure they hit the jackpot. Or maybe ballmer promised to throw in an extra billion if they can kick google out

      --
      Free speech was meant to be free for all... how can anyone grow up in a nanny state ?
    72. Re:EU are on crack by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      street view.

    73. Re:EU are on crack by beelsebob · · Score: 1

      Right, that thing google doesn't have in the above link... that makes google better?

    74. Re:EU are on crack by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      That's irrelevant to me, I have no plans to ever go to Russia. Pretty much every street in my country has street view.

  4. Re:Google is Evil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    If I use Google search to search for "search" then Google search comes up seventh (after Metasearch, Bing, Twitter seach, Dogpile and Yahoo(twice)), which sort of surprised me. But I suppose it makes sense because most people using Google to search for "search" are looking for something other than Google.

  5. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by Internetuser1248 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I worked out that a Europe wide 0.5% financial transaction tax would be enough to pay an unconditional base income of 400euro/month to every single person living in Europe with money to spare. ...just saying.

  6. Re:Google is Evil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    But do they have the option of 'mixing' results from other social networks? My impression (perhaps unfounded?) was that Facebook wouldn't let them have access to the equivalent information.

  7. Re:Fining Google outside of Europe? by wisnoskij · · Score: 2

    Would make more sense to me to fine them 20% (or whatever) of all EU monies, instead.

    --
    Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
  8. Re:Google is Evil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Can you give an example in relation to their promoting their own services through their search engine? The first thing I tried to test it was searching for "maps" on Google search and sure enough Google Maps came up first. But then I tried searching for "maps" on Bing and it also gave me Google maps first so maybe Google maps is just a good first result for that. I'm sure there must be other search terms that demonstrate a problem though, so what might be worth trying?

    So Google's services are the most used simply because they are the best, not because Google are a bunch of anti competitive corporate weasels just like all the other big tech corporations. Well then, by the same logic Microsoft Windows must be so widely used, simply because it is the best Desktop OS ever written.

  9. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 2

    This money is added to the central budget of the EU.

  10. Accepted Industry Practice by wisnoskij · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Bing does this as well, I do not think it is particularly fair to start fining people for doing something that has been going on and in the open since internet searches were first born.

    Now if they wanted to created some regulations to protect internet searches to make them fair, well that would be a good start.

    --
    Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    1. Re:Accepted Industry Practice by Missing.Matter · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Bing does this as well, I do not think it is particularly fair to start fining people for doing something that has been going on and in the open since internet searches were first born.

      Just as bundling a browser with an OS is something that has been going on since the internet was born, yet Microsoft must provide a ballot screen in the EU and Apple does not. Microsoft promoting its products in Bing results puts them in front of at best 20% of the market. Google gets their products in front of 80% of the market. One company has more influence that the other in this case, just as Microsoft has more influence than Apple in the OS market.

    2. Re:Accepted Industry Practice by ninetyninebottles · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Bing does this as well, I do not think it is particularly fair to start fining people for doing something that has been going on and in the open since internet searches were first born.

      In the early days no one had monopoly influence on the market. Antitrust laws have been on the books since the 1800's without much change. If Google doesn't have lawyers and businessmen that understand them they should dissolve the company now as their incompetence is staggering. If Google did go ahead and leverage their influence in search, they knew what they were doing and deserve to be smacked down for it because they were breaking the law and hoping to lawyer their way out of it.

    3. Re:Accepted Industry Practice by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      Yes but that ruling was unfair as well, actually far more so. Not only was it an accepted industry practise, but it was the best practice for computer users.
      Bundling a single software product for all important tasks, is simply the best way to distribute a OS.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    4. Re:Accepted Industry Practice by ninetyninebottles · · Score: 1

      Is the web search a different product than the maps search?

      In terms of markets and thus the law, absolutely. There are companies that sell each of those services and not the other.

    5. Re:Accepted Industry Practice by Missing.Matter · · Score: 2

      You know, I actually agree with you 100%, but at least they're being consistent, which is I guess as much as we can ask.

    6. Re:Accepted Industry Practice by BenoitRen · · Score: 1

      Not this crap again.

      Look, everyone agrees that bundling a web browser with a computer operating system is a good idea. However, Microsoft bundling and then integration of their web browser gave it a competitive advantage thanks to their operating system monopoly. You know what happened before Microsoft bundled it? OEMs bundled a web browser! Just like they bundle a ton of other software with the computer you buy from them.

      First Microsoft just bundled a web browser and threatened to take away OEMs's Windows licenses if they dared to uninstall it and/or bundle Netscape instead. Next it integrated Internet Explorer into the operating system so you didn't have a choice but to use it one way or another. That's clearly anti-competitive behaviour and they were rightly punished for it.

    7. Re:Accepted Industry Practice by Tapewolf · · Score: 3, Insightful

      First Microsoft just bundled a web browser and threatened to take away OEMs's Windows licenses if they dared to uninstall it and/or bundle Netscape instead. Next it integrated Internet Explorer into the operating system so you didn't have a choice but to use it one way or another. That's clearly anti-competitive behaviour and they were rightly punished for it.

      Most importantly, it gave them the ability to add extensions that would only ever work on IE on i386. ActiveX plugins and the like. And it worked - so well that some businesses are still stuck on IE6. The best part was that once they had actually destroyed Netscape, Microsoft disbanded the IE development team and stopped actively developing it. All this was the kind of lock-in that the EU was trying to prevent, but the process took too long.

      Fortunately things managed to right themselves somehow, with Netscape returning from the dead as Mozilla (and I still remember lots of people saying it would never work, and that it was a crock of shit), but the whole 'Only works on IE' thing persisted for a long, long time. It's only really the success of iOS and Android which has finally made people realise that making a site that only works on Windows is a Bad Idea.

  11. Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The article links to another article with a very different tone from July:

    "Google and EU poised to settle antitrust investigation "
    http://www.networkworld.com/news/2012/072412-google-and-eu-poised-to-261131.html

    Which includes the line: "Schmidt's proposals addressed all of the concerns they had raised with Google, European officials told the Financial Times."

  12. Re:Google is Evil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Exactly. Google couldn't get Facebook to play, so they took it upon themselves to provide a better user experience. In fact, facebook provided information to Microsoft which they integrated with Bing, so it was possible, but they chose not to do this for Google, so Google simply took it upon themselves to innovate. But some Europeans with a baguette in one hand and a shitty search engine/service in the other complain from their corner of the world. Oh no, their crappy subpar website is ruined by the evil Google with their superior service! Let's fine the innovators!

    This is why Europe will never get a Google/Apple/Microsoft company that starts in Europe. Europe simply doesn't understand basic economics. If Google wanted to, they could make sure search results always favor them, but they don't, they go above and beyond many other companies who promote their own services.

  13. Re:Google is Evil by Z34107 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And thank God. When I type <name of store>, City, State I want a map. Not a plug for MapQuest. Not a plug for Bing. And most certainly not iOS 6 telling me I'll have to charter a kayak, and, by the way, Gander Mountain has a great deal on paddles.

    A related problem: My local Wal-Mart has a Subway inside the store. Why don't you go picket them? There's clearly no way other sandwich services can compete.

    --
    DATABASE WOW WOW
  14. Hands up who's complaining? by Ian.Waring · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In my experience, the only people who complain to the EU are competitors trying to fiddle with Googles business model. I think people who sponsor that sort of activity should attract fines of their own.

    1. Re:Hands up who's complaining? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      > the only people who complain to the EU are competitors
      No shit, Sherlock. If you aren't directly affected by Google's practices, you wouldn't legally have any grounds to make a complaint.
      If Google wants to (legally) compete as e.g. a mapping service, it has to do so on a level playing field, not by using its dominant position in the search market.

    2. Re:Hands up who's complaining? by udachny · · Score: 1

      Precisely. Every time a government uses an 'anti-trust' law, the reality of it is that the people who end up gaining are some competitors who cannot compete in real life, so they buy government officials to destroy the economy of scale for them.

      The people who truly end up hurt are the clients, users, customers, consumers. The government doesn't care about those people, they are not the ones giving the bribes, and of-course in case of a successful lawsuit by gov't, there is a huge windfall there, the gov't gets all that money, it goes around and around, the politicians can't resist that type of a temptation.

    3. Re:Hands up who's complaining? by Tom · · Score: 1

      The people who suffer from something complain about it. Are you trying to say that this surprises you?

      The point is not, and never should be, about who complains, but about whether or not the complaint is justified. If you break into my house, it shouldn't matter if I or my neighbours or someone walking the dog notices and calls the cops, should it?

      Please stop the "if we just stopped doing anything, the magical invisible hand of the market would sort everything out" nonsense. Few theories in the history of mankind have been more thoroughly debunked. Soccer games work well among friends, and where lots and lots of money is at stakes, you need a referee. Nobody is surprised by that. Dumb people seem surprised that the same holds true for other competitions.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    4. Re:Hands up who's complaining? by makomk · · Score: 1

      They're competitors who don't want to compete on a level playing field. I've seen a whole bunch of these so-called vertical search engines, and Google delayed far too long in downranking them - not only were they useless, they'd got so good at gaming Google's search results that they were starting to make Google itself useless for many searches. I've no doubt they managed to make a bit of money by making the Google results useless and hoping people would click their ads in desperation, but it was a pretty awful experience for actual users. That's before we even get started on Microsoft's filing attempting to force Google to make its search less functional than Bing's. (They're using the exact same stuff they complain about Google doing as a major selling point of Bing, called "Bing Instant Answers").

      Level playing field, my ass.

  15. Re:Google is Evil by houghi · · Score: 1

    People do not look for 'search' and then find google. People google it.
    People will use 'search' if they want something else then google. They are already at google, so they will not select that.

    Searches are related to what people search for and to what it is linked to. So to me it is logical that googleling for 'search' won't show google.

    --
    Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
  16. About time by joh · · Score: 2

    I doubt very much though that the EU will/can do very much here.

    One part of the problem is that people are trusting Google more than almost any other company. Google often exercises restrain and good will and of course for most services doesn't charge anything (because its users are not its customers actually), so people are extremely forgiving.

    I'm not sure about what will grow out of Google. I wouldn't be surprised though if Google were the first iteration of a more or less lenient super-AI of the future. If any of you have read the Culture novels by Iain M. Banks: The first Minds probably looked very similar to Google. If *this* will be the ultimate outcome, I'd say fuck the EU and hail Google.

    Reality isn't a novel though...

    1. Re:About time by swillden · · Score: 1

      Google only wants one thing - more money.

      That's a rather strong claim, since it directly contradicts the statements the company has made since its inception, including the legally binding statements made in its IPO documentation. It's also hard to fathom why the people who control the company's voting stock (the founders) would care that much about becoming wealthier -- they already have more money than they could ever possibly spend. And because they control the voting stock, no one else is in a position to override them.

      Strong claims require strong evidence. Have any?

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  17. Re:Google is Evil by ericloewe · · Score: 1

    They heavily promote Chrome with Google Earth, Youtube (especially to Windows XP users) and search, possibly Gmail and maps too.

  18. I agree to a point... by Holammer · · Score: 1

    But to me, this is akin to a restaurant being threatened with fines for not directing some of the customers to its competitors.
    The search engine industry should advertise like everyone else, or offer superior service.

  19. Re:Google is Evil by LourensV · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There are some interesting parallels here. Google is starting to look more and more like an operating system, with the menu bar at the top and the integration of a lot of their services into a desktop-like interface. And in a way, the "start menu" for this operating system is Google Search (it is after all the one at google.com). So the question then is, are they allowed to bundle other applications with this operating system, or should they allow others to compete with their own applications? In that sense it's similar to the whole Windows/IE bundling case. And in fact, Google could argue just like Microsoft did (although MS made some ridiculous claims about it being technically impossible to remove IE) that the embedded Maps is not a separate service at all, but that Search simply has an embedded viewer for search results that are geographical locations, which happens to be powered by the same technology as Maps.

    Of course, what matters legally is the effect the thing has on the markets, not any kind of technical consideration. In that case, Google Search is a near-monopoly in the search market, and it's conceivable that its embedding of Google Maps to display results advantages Google Maps over other mapping services. I'm not sure how you would prove that (and have no idea what the standard of proof would be here), but if it turns out to be the case, then Google could remedy it by offering any other mapping services an open API that they can use to register their mapping service with Google, with Google then giving the user the option to choose a mapping service for showing embedded search results. That would be similar to the IE solution.

    As for Google being evil, right now the EU is investigating if there is a crime at all. Antitrust law is a murky thing; there is no exact borderline where a market leader becomes a monopolist and where integrating services or products becomes too big a distortion of the market. So let's wait for the EU opinion first. Then, let's see how Google handles it. Will they work with the regulators to find an acceptable solution and implement it quickly, or will they try to lie, sue and lobby their way out of it like Microsoft did? I'd say that their reaction of a potential complaint constitutes a much better test of their character than just the fact that the EU has decided to investigate something.

  20. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by chronokitsune3233 · · Score: 1

    I'm not saying you're from the US or anything, but the US does the same thing. We just use the term "patent infringement" rather than "antitrust." (note: that's an analogy, not a pair of synonyms)

    --
    I have been a captive in America my entire life. Everybody and everything uses customary units instead of metric.
  21. Re:Google is Evil by Compaqt · · Score: 2

    It would have been nice if they could have actually regulated them before hitting them with a $3.7 billion fine for putting an ad for their products on the side of their delivery trucks.

    I.e., tell them they could be liable, and could you please stop that? Instead of the very first move being to make a massive hit on a foreign company (as also seen in the anti-Samsung verdicts in the US and Europe).

    --
    I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
  22. Google's own services as Advertisements? by Guppy · · Score: 1

    Maybe Google should have simply posted up their own services as an Advertisement item in search. Instant First rank, no problem -- they could even have the department "pay" the rest of Google to do it (although I'm pretty sure they would have to be careful with accounting rules, taxes, and so forth).

    1. Re:Google's own services as Advertisements? by Tranzistors · · Score: 1

      In that case MS should be able to buy that advertisement space. If Google doesn't let them, then again it is a breach of EU rules.

  23. Re:Google is Evil by poetmatt · · Score: 2

    you mean the thing which you can *turn off*?

  24. Boho said Microsoft. by miffo.swe · · Score: 1, Insightful

    As this comes directly from Microsoft and a couple of paid minions of them its pretty lame. Its so obvious who is behind this. What Google should try to do is to get any remedies they have to do be written down as much of it is applicable to Microsofts own promoting of MS Office inside Windows and its Server products etc.

    When you cant compete, litigate. If everybody laughs at you for the sheer audacity, get a couple of toady minions to do your dirty work.

    --
    HTTP/1.1 400
    1. Re:Boho said Microsoft. by Ash+Vince · · Score: 1

      As this comes directly from Microsoft and a couple of paid minions of them its pretty lame. Its so obvious who is behind this. What Google should try to do is to get any remedies they have to do be written down as much of it is applicable to Microsofts own promoting of MS Office inside Windows and its Server products etc.

      When you cant compete, litigate. If everybody laughs at you for the sheer audacity, get a couple of toady minions to do your dirty work.

      Actually, this did not come from MS.

      It came from a crappy competitor to google product search called foundem. Unfortunately they consider the idea of learning about SEO to be akin to learning about black magic so they are suffering as no new users ever find them anymore.

      They searched for things like "product search engine" in google and found they were not even listed on the first page and went straight to the EU screaming foul that Google Product Search came out first. Instead they should have tried the same thing on Bing and realised the same thing happened.

      The problem is that their "vertical search technology" or whatever is the same old crap that the web used to be full of before Google. You searched for something then got back loads of links that just went to other search engines with a matching search. It meant you had to drill through 15 separate search engines to actually get to some useful results at the bottom of a huge tree structure of links. This was just shit for users.

      Basically Foundem are crying out to be listed on the first page of googles search results for buying products even though all they do is aggregate stuff from somewhere else and have no original content what so ever on their site (apart from their anti-google rants that is). Sooner or later they will realise that this business model is just doomed, no matter how much they crap on Google since Bing do not direct any traffic to their shitty site either.

      The only good thing that will come out of this is that Google will end up having to be far more transparent about their searching algorithm. They will then have to share it with all their competitors by making it public so the only way left they will have to protect it from copying will be with good old software patents. Maybe they will then join the pro-european software patent lobby. (ok, this last paragraph is me taking the piss slightly)

      --
      I dont read /. to RTFA, I read /. to offend people in ignorance.
    2. Re:Boho said Microsoft. by miffo.swe · · Score: 1

      There are strong connections between Foundem and Microsoft. Microsoft has been working very hard to get competitors to Google to complain.

      --
      HTTP/1.1 400
  25. This isn't news by ysth · · Score: 1

    This is getting old, the every couple days another story splashing the Evil Google name in the headlines with hardly any change from the previous round. There will be progress in the MS-EU-Google tussle over time but basically there's nothing to say until it's over and done with. And by then some of the wild accusations of exposure will magically have faded to something actually reasonable.

  26. Re:Google is Evil by Z34107 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You don't have to be a "shill" to realize your scenario, as presented, is ridiculous. You don't want a map, but claim Google is unfairly depriving MapQuest their share of the "people who don't want a map" market?

    Google is trying to put something useful in that spot. Search for "Keanu Reeves" and, instead of a map, you'll get a short bio. Search for "Pb" and you'll get it's periodic table entry.

    Bing and Yahoo! could do something like that, but they'd rather fill that space with ads.

    --
    DATABASE WOW WOW
  27. Re:Google is Evil by The+Snowman · · Score: 1

    I notice Apple and MS don't sue Google they go after the small men who haven't the finances to fight back.

    I guess Samsung is a small man with no finances. Assuming you don't count billions in revenue and the largest slice of the tablet market. Or how about the lawsuits between Microsoft and Motorola.

    --
    24 beers in a case, 24 hours in a day. Coincidence? I think not!
  28. Re:Google is Evil by Lawrence_Bird · · Score: 2

    OK, go use Bing. Or Blekko. Or Dogpile. Or Ask. Or is that too hard for you to do? You don't like the way Google works so don't keep using it.

  29. Microsoft shilling again by TrueSpeed · · Score: 1

    You can bet all of those complaints are from Microsoft's family of shill companies. They can't compete from a technology point of view so they complain to the EU about their incompetence. It's about time Google goes ballistic on Microsoft and exposes them for the dirt bag company they really are.

  30. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by Forty+Two+Tenfold · · Score: 1

    Uh... I was certain "patent infringement" and "antitrust" cases promote monopolization and competition respectively. I must have been wrong and will read on that.

    --
    Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
  31. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by ppanon · · Score: 1

    Yep. And at the same time it would cut down on speculation in the financial markets and high speed trading arbitrage, which is why the investment banks and brokers in Wall Street and London are so dead set against it. It would cut into a major source of revenue for them, oh and probably help stabilize markets by reducing flash trading.

    --
    Laissez lire, et laissez danser; ces deux amusements ne feront jamais de mal au monde. - Voltaire
  32. Re:What a crock by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

    Some people haven't learned the lessons of history.

  33. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by udachny · · Score: 1, Interesting

    No it would not because you are not taking into the account modification of behaviour.

    If you do that, you'll simply end most of the financial transactions that can be taxed, some will find new homes and some will just disappear. Most of the smaller traders in the markets will disappear, for who 0.5% is definitely the game killer, they can't make a profit on average if that type of confiscatory tax is applied, and it is confiscatory in case of most traders.

    ---
    (all of this sets aside the obvious issue of lack of morality of such behavior - confiscation of private property via income taxes)

  34. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by khallow · · Score: 2

    If the EU charges a fixed fraction of Google's global revenue per infraction, including a lot of revenue that's not part of the EU, then why should they get to keep all of it? Instead, this sounds like a protectionist scheme. The fee relative to the amount of business in the EU is much less for a company that does most or all of its business in the EU relative to a foreign company that does a small part in the EU.

    For example, suppose I have two businesses each doing a billion euros of business. One is solely in the EU and the other does only ten per cent of its business in the EU. A fine scheme like the above has them paying the same fine for the same crime despite one business having far more business in the EU than the other. That means that the foreign business faces the same risk of fines on a tenth of the business that the other business has.

    It's yet another way to block foreign businesses without (as of yet) provoking a response from the WTO or other treaties.

  35. Where does it end? by Mr.+Underbridge · · Score: 1

    Read up on rules on monopolies. If you have a dominant position in one area and use that to gain an advantage in other areas, that's when you are in trouble. If no such rules were in place, the natural evolution would be that one company crushing all the others. Be thankful that that this is happening. It's good for you in the end.

    Fully agree. However, when does one thing (search) become two things (search, maps), in which the one is used to abuse the other? Based on the suggestions here, the only thing that Google can do is provide an interface for customers to choose absolutely everything. However, where do you draw the line? What if I want my searching based on a specific algorithm - have google leveraged their ad presentation infrasstructure into the algorithm development business? What if I want them to use a different ad server? What if I want them to use a competitor's font - are the typesetters being disadvantaged here?

    What if we parametricize this - are they extending search into restaurant reviews - should Yelp sue? What about the whitepages - should phone information services sue? Etc, etc.

    There's an insidious aspect in that because Google's product is free, every aspect of their operation can be seen as another 'free service' that is connected (illegally?) to their search operation. Is Maps another service or just another way of showing search results?

    I could see a clean break with a service like Mail - that has little to do (from a user's standpoint) with their core search business, though on the biz side of course they're both part of the ad business. So if they're popping up GMail on top when you search for Hotmail (they don't, btw), that would be one thing. But simply presenting search results on a map, or showing a map of a locality that is searched for, calling that anti-trust is brainless.

    Two other things: 1) Companies shouldn't have to guess what can be construed as anti-trust under very creative definitions, they should be given notice first. 2) There's a clear conflict of interest when the body that fines you gets to keep the loot.

  36. Re:Google is Evil by nospam007 · · Score: 1

    "Google just shoved their map in there ... and no other service can do that."

    So if you go to Starbucks you want them to offer you coffee from the guys around the corner?
    And they have to offer you that _first_?
    Are you crazy?
    It's a private company, not some Government Agency who has to be impartial.
    They show you what they have, if you don't like that, don't go there.

  37. Play the game by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

    "Hey, Google. (insert OP contents here)...unless a more...equitable...arrangement is agreed?"

    Microsoft started donating hand-over-fist, This, combined with their philanthropy, largely dried up attacks by pontificating politicians around the world.

    An outrageous statement? No, a prediction. Google will learn to play the game and start making many more political "donations".

    And, to quasi-knowitalls, what part of prediction don't you guys understand?

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  38. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by clarkkent09 · · Score: 4, Funny

    And 1% would give everybody a monthly income of 800. And why stop there? A 25% tax would give everybody 20,000 euro a MONTH and everybody will be filthy rich and nobody will have to work ever again. You, Sir, are a genius!

    --
    Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
  39. Re:Google is Evil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That is... the worst analogy ever.

    Google is a public company, not a private one.
    Starbucks is not a coffee monopoly who controls 80-90% of the world's coffee.
    Your argument means that Microsoft should be free to integrate anything they want into Windows. Anything at all. And if you don't like it then don't buy a Windows PC.

    It's very simple - Google controls a monopoly share of web searches. A monopoly share is legal as long as you don't use it in illegal ways (such as using it to push into new markets). Google is now bundling their own products right into their search while excluding competitors from getting the same privilege. This, quite obviously, gives their own products an advantage over competitors. This means that Google is using its search engine to push into new markets and quash competitors.

    How is this in any way confusing? How could anyone agree that this is a legitimate business practice?

    I spent the last 15 years seeing them rage against MS for illegal bundling practices that sucked their air out of the room for competitors, but when Google does it everything is hunky-dory It's funny how Slashdot has such massive double standards. It's like you're PROUD of it.

  40. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

    Why not? There are countries in the EU which pay more than that in VAT.

  41. Re:Google is Evil by nospam007 · · Score: 1

    " The first thing I tried to test it was searching for "maps" on Google search and sure enough Google Maps came up first."

    I tried to search for "foot ball" and +"foot ball" and there was not a single match in the first dozen results, those were all for the dyslexic morons that Google expects us to be and just assumes we are searching for 'football' and don't know how it's spelled.
    If I insist and ask for +"foot ball" -"football" the first link doesn't have the second search term, as expected, but also not the first.
    It's just getting more and more tedious to use.

    And that's just an example I cooked up where everything happens on the first results page, usually you have to wade through dozens of results pages, because Google just doesn't return what I ask for but what it thinks I want.

    I want a fucking search engine, not a psychic.

  42. Re:Google is Evil by Z34107 · · Score: 1

    All this presupposes that Google has a "monopoly" in search, which is retarded beyond measure. You can make a much more compelling case that they have a monopoly in advertising, but that has nothing at all to do with poor MapQuest.

    --
    DATABASE WOW WOW
  43. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    VAT is different. VAT gets refunded for the vast majority of payments.

    Only the final sale to the consumer actually ends up having VAT. All the (hundreds) of purchases that preceded that final purchase have their VAT refunded.

  44. And yet Apple can do whatever it wants. by ikaruga · · Score: 1

    Like removing the great Google Maps app for their own worthless version. If that is not anti-competitive then I don't know what it is. And please don't tell me that is because it's apple own device and they can do anything they want, because google services are on google servers and they should be able to do anything they want as well.

  45. Lots of Youtube results by PastTense · · Score: 1

    I am seeing a huge number of Youtube results at the beginning of responses when I have not made any search entry for video. I find it very doubtful these would show up if were a competing video service.

    1. Re:Lots of Youtube results by makomk · · Score: 1

      Errrm, they already do search competing video services too. They have done since before video search was integrated in the main search page. Try searching for South by Dave Otto (just plucking a random video off the Vimeo front page) for example.

  46. Re:Google is Evil by Z34107 · · Score: 1

    There is no "natural" monopoly in search, and switching to a competitor is so trivial it's sad. In America, at least, you have to do more than win a popularity contest to be a monopolist.

    "But where's the ability to choose another map data provider?" you ask. It's in that bar, at the top of your browser. If anyone actually wanted Bing maps, bing.com is even shorter to type than google.com.

    And if Google's spidering is "directly hampering"F a business' "ability to stay operational," they deserve to go bankrupt. Google respects robots.txt.

    --
    DATABASE WOW WOW
  47. Re:What a crock by Lawrence_Bird · · Score: 1

    you are too late for the USSR, sorry.

    tell me about how bad life is in the us when people are lining up for iphones and ipods every time a new one is released. or people paying 1200 a year for cable tv. or how about people leasing cars they could never afford to buy. yeah times are hard in the us. not. what is up in the us is whining.
     

  48. Perhaps I'm missing something here... by idbeholda · · Score: 1

    But wouldn't that be the purpose from the inception for a search engine provider to market its own services in the first place? Correct me if I'm wrong, but self-promotion is HOW MONEY IS MADE. And unless a competitor is offering Google more money than it would make from its own services in order to slant search results, I see this as pretty much a non-issue, in the same sense that you don't see one car dealership recommending the services of a competing dealership. That's now how this shit works in the real world. If this somehow upsets a competitor, then the competitor should be building a better product if they hope to compete and come out on top. If EU is actually going to so fine Google for promoting its own services... that it provides... FOR FREE... then perhaps they should also start going after companies that design products on store shelves that are too eye catching or colorful, and specifically targeting those companies AND corporations that allow these colorful, fancy (and sometimes superior quality) products to be placed at eye level in the supermarket.

  49. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by khallow · · Score: 2

    I'm seeing the implications here. I think a reasonable percent is 1250% tax on financial transactions. That would give everyone a million euro a MONTH. That should be enough for even the poor to live on.

  50. Non-car analogy by smart_ass · · Score: 1

    Isn't this kind of like asking the concierge for a dinner suggestion and being referred to a restaurant in the hotel rather than outside?
    If I ask someone who runs a landscaping company who I should get to mow my lawn ... I have a pretty good idea in advance what they are going to say.

    --
    Ouch ... did I just say that.
    1. Re:Non-car analogy by Urza9814 · · Score: 1

      Isn't this kind of like asking the concierge for a dinner suggestion and being referred to a restaurant in the hotel rather than outside?
      If I ask someone who runs a landscaping company who I should get to mow my lawn ... I have a pretty good idea in advance what they are going to say.

      While I get your point, it doesn't really hold up unless there's no significant difference in services.

      If I stayed at an expensive hotel and asked the concierge for somewhere nearby to get something cheap to eat, and he suggested the hotel restaurant that had nothing below $25...I probably would consider trying a different hotel next time. Yes, a good concierge will probably mention the hotel restaurant and what it has to offer, but they'll also listen to what you're specifically asking for and try to find the best possible match. Sure, they may say 'well, the hotel restaurant does have some quite reasonable options like x, y, and z' but they'll probably also add 'but there's a great place just down the street as well if you're more in the mood for a, b, or c'. They know repeat hotel stays are worth more than a single meal at the restaurant.

      Same goes for the landscaping business. Or any business. I can't tell you how many times I've gone into a store saying 'I'm looking for this, do you have it?' and they've said 'No, but I think [competitor] might'. There's no point in saying 'yea, go check aisle 12' if it's not there. There's no point in a landscaper recommending his business if it isn't going to be good for what you need. If he recommends himself and does a crap job, neither you nor your friends will use his services again. If he recommends a competitor and they do pretty well, you may go back to or recommend him when you need something he _can_ do.

      So...if Google Maps is better than the competition, they should be able to recommend it on search. If it's just as good as the competition, they should probably still be able to recommend it. If it's worse than the competition and they're ignoring/modifying their search algorithm in order to promote it...then you could say it's a problem. Whether it's anti-trust or just a poor business decision though is a different question.

  51. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by microbox · · Score: 1

    Most of the smaller traders in the markets will disappear,

    Most small traders already pay a premium that is greater than 0.5%

    --

    Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
  52. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by microbox · · Score: 1

    If you are arguing that a financial transaction tax would crash the economy, then that is a stupid way to do it.

    --

    Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
  53. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

    It's not blocking foreign businesses. Don't do bad things and you don't get to pay fines.

  54. Re:Google is Evil by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

    How can Maquest compete when Google is shoving their maps right into their monopoly search?

    Why would I care as a user? I want convenient search, and Google gives me just that.

  55. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Did you miss the note?

    It was an analogy, the US uses "patent infringements" to block out foreign companies and protect domestic (see good old American Apple vs that evil Korean Samsung) while the EU uses "antitrust" to protect small European firms from the big evil Americans delivering highly integrated products.

     

  56. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by cinky · · Score: 1

    > It's not blocking foreign businesses. Don't do bad things and you don't get to pay fines. So if I own a restaurant I should promote the menu of the restaurant across the street to avoid antitrust cases?

  57. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by Errol+backfiring · · Score: 1

    As the curator of Greece is Goldman Sachs, I don't think any money will really go to Greece.

    --
    Nae king! Nae laird! Nae yurrupiean pressedent! We willna be fooled again!
  58. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by bigtomrodney · · Score: 1

    Analogies are a bad debating tool. They sometimes work but they are not often logically sound.

    If you really want to have a restaurant analogy in this case you should frame it like this. A restaurant that has 95% of business already, already has you as an existing customer for an unrelated product requires you to walk through their restaurant to a small door in the back that allows you access to the town's other restaurants. Their undue weight is approaching monopoly in that their inertia allows them to obscure competitors.

    If you're not engaged in monopolistic practises then of course you will not be deemed anti-competitive. A monopoly does not serve the consumer.

    --
    I never get used to these constant resurrections
  59. Re:Google is Evil by InsectOverlord · · Score: 1

    Exactly. Google couldn't get Facebook to play, so they took it upon themselves to provide a better user experience.

    Is that the new way to say "violate users' privacy even further"? Gotta love the euphemism.

  60. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by Elldallan · · Score: 1

    Because within a nation the governments power(within the limitations set by the population in case of democracies) is absolute, they can write pretty much whatever laws they want and thus impose whatever fines they want. As a company you can either choose to adhere to the rules and regulations set by the local government or you can choose to not do business within their borders. The EU is a pretty sizable market so everyone wants to do business there

    Also the point of these fines is that they have to hurt more than what the corporation gain from breaking the regulations or they are powerless. Also your complaint about it being just another way to block foreign business simply isn't true, so far the biggest fines handed out to a corporation by the Commission was to a European based company and even by frequency the Commission fines a lot more European based corporations than it does foreign ones.

    The original reason for fines being on the global revenue was so that the Commission could fine European countries for misbehaving when doing business elsewhere.
    Personally I think it's entirely fair because foreign corporations can always choose not to do business within the EU and thus avoid the regulations if they don't like them, of course that would hurt more than paying the fines...

  61. Re:Google is Evil by Elldallan · · Score: 1

    By EU standards Google don't need to have a monopoly to be covered by antitrust legislation, they just has to have a dominant market position(the lowest market share so far that has been found to be dominant was 39.7%) and Google certainly has at least that in search, thus they are required to follow EU antitrust legislation.

  62. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by osmifra · · Score: 1

    When said company main service is directing others to websites and also has monopoly of the market. Yes it is news and is against business rules in Europe.

  63. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by khallow · · Score: 1

    Also the point of these fines is that they have to hurt more than what the corporation gain from breaking the regulations or they are powerless.

    It's worth noting that it hurts the foreign company more than the local because there is less relevant business to absorb the fine. For example, if Google were solely an EU company, it might be worth it to pay the fine, keep doing business as usual, and just bribe the appropriate regulators to prevent the issue coming up in the future.

  64. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by khallow · · Score: 1

    and even by frequency the Commission fines a lot more European based corporations than it does foreign ones.

    Or further evidence that the policy helps exclude foreign businesses from the EU market.

  65. Re:Google is Evil by osmifra · · Score: 1

    If i want the best service, not google service that is important and as a user i do care.

    You can argue that google is the best service but that is beyond the point, for me it might not be. Also I'm obscuring my competitor because i have monopoly on which streets everyone walks. That is not permitted in EU.

    It happened with MS and IE, it will probably happen again against google.

  66. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by khallow · · Score: 1

    I already noted that one can end up paying the same large fine even if one has only a small fraction of its business in the EU. That's a very effective block of foreign business.

  67. Re:Google is Evil by osmifra · · Score: 1

    Since when 95% of search market share isn't a monopoly?

  68. Re:Google is Evil by Elldallan · · Score: 1

    You are wrong, Google most definitely have a dominant market share in search which is what matters in EU antitrust legislation.
    Therefore Google is forbidden from using that advantage in other markets such as map services, advertisement or whatever else they can think of.

  69. Google should boycott the EU by gelfling · · Score: 1

    Let them slowly slide back into the 1950's. They've decided that the remedy for socialism is Stalinism. Fine. Go do that.

  70. Re:Google is Evil by Elldallan · · Score: 1

    Thats not the issue, sure users can switch search engines of course but companies competing with Google cannot choose what search engines the users go to and hence they are competing at a disadvantage against Google if Google promotes it's competing service in the search and since Google has a dominant market share such a behavior is prohibited business behavior withing the EU.

  71. Re:Google is Evil by Elldallan · · Score: 1

    No if Google tells the EU to fuck off then the EU is going to start seizing Google assets both within EU and wherever else they can get project influence and eventually start issuing international arrest warrants for top Google executives(and arrest any Google executives that enter EU), simply put they are going to make life VERY difficult for Google.

  72. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by icebraining · · Score: 1

    So what you're saying is that local company is pretty much forced to pay the fine, while a foreign company has leverage to avoid it if it's not worth it to their business, and so the fine is worst for the foreign? That makes no sense.

  73. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by tehcyder · · Score: 1

    I worked out that a Europe wide 0.5% financial transaction tax would be enough to pay an unconditional base income of 400euro/month to every single person living in Europe with money to spare. ...just saying.

    More to the point, a 5% tax would let everyone have 4000 euros a month, which would be a comfortable income for most people.

    --
    To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  74. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by tehcyder · · Score: 1

    If you do that, you'll simply end most of the financial transactions that can be taxed

    You almost make it sound like that's a bad thing. The whole point is that most of the "trading" activity is socially and economically useless. Personally, I'd just go for punishingly high rates of tax (90%+) for anyone who basically makes money out of gambling

    --
    To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  75. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by tehcyder · · Score: 1

    And 1% would give everybody a monthly income of 800. And why stop there? A 25% tax would give everybody 20,000 euro a MONTH and everybody will be filthy rich and nobody will have to work ever again. You, Sir, are a genius!

    Sounds fair enough to me. Not all of us regard the redistribution of wealth as a bad thing.

    --
    To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  76. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by tehcyder · · Score: 1

    VAT is different. VAT gets refunded for the vast majority of payments.

    Only the final sale to the consumer actually ends up having VAT. All the (hundreds) of purchases that preceded that final purchase have their VAT refunded.

    VAT doesn't get refunded (at least in the UK) if you're offering VAT exempt financial service products.

    --
    To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  77. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by tehcyder · · Score: 1

    Company shows its own free products before those of the competition.

    Film at 11.

    So Microsoft were fine pushing their free Internet Explorer in order to wipe out Netscape after all? Just checking.

    --
    To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  78. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by tehcyder · · Score: 1

    As the curator of Greece is Goldman Sachs, I don't think any money will really go to Greece.

    Greece would be a lot better off now, and would have been a lot better off for the last sixty years, if the Germans had been forced to return all the wealth the Nazis looted from them in WW2.

    Listen, don't mention the war. I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it all right.

    --
    To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  79. what a coincidence! by slashmydots · · Score: 1

    I've never seen Coke plug Pepsi on their cans either! It's their product! of course they're not going to plug their competition! They're not some universal utility thing that everyone has a right to. Their search engine and advertising are 100% owned and created by them so they can remove their competition from it all they want.

  80. Competition? by l3v1 · · Score: 1

    I'll be a bit extreme here, but I can't see the problem when a company promotes its services better than those of the competition. I would go to such an extent to say it's my obligation to promote my offerings better than others'. I see two was to deal with this: i). force each ad every search provider to not promote their own services at all, or ii). let all search providers promore their own services as they see fit. For me both would be acceptable, but doing these investigations over and over again is just a waste of time and resources, and our [EU] taxes.

    --
    I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
  81. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by Grumbleduke · · Score: 1

    Not necessarily, for two reasons.
    Firstly, you don't have a monopoly on a scale the EU cares about (usually cross-state, unless there's a really specific market).
    Secondly, you're not (on the facts) abusing that position in an anti-competitive way.

    In Google's case, the EC is arguing (or has found, can't remember what stage this is at and can't be bothered to RTFA, but did participate a lively discussion at the UK Parliament over this issue, and chatted with one of the people involved in the original complaint) that Google:
      (a) has a dominant position in the search engine market in the EU (something like 90%; far higher than in the US, iirc).
      (b) has abused this position to promote its other services (such as maps, shopping, videos etc.) by using a separate algorithm for ranking *its* services over other ones.

    Thus you have an abuse of a dominant position, contrary to EU Competition law (assuming that the abuse is causing a negative effect on consumers; I have a feeling the EC's case might fall down there).

    Whether or not the EC is right is another matter.

  82. Re:Google is Evil by Grumbleduke · · Score: 1

    I.e., tell them they could be liable, and could you please stop that? Instead of the very first move being to make a massive hit on a foreign company...

    Some quotes from the article (emphasis mine):
    "Europe's competition watchdog is considering formal proceedings against Google..."
    "Talks with the Internet giant about concessions it will make to settle the case are still dragging on..."
    "Google offered some concessions to the European Commission in July..."

    This process has been going on for a couple of years now, with the EC investigating the matter, discussing things with Google (and the complainants), talking things over and so on. All they are doing now (according to the latest statement from the Commissioner) is finally considering bringing a case. They would still have to win the case to be able to fine Google. And that could take years (the MS investigation was launched in 1993, and there was another appeal judgment in June this year).

    As for the Samsung verdicts; those are somewhat different due to being civil cases (brought mainly by Apple, rather than public cases brought by the EC). Out of interest, a quick check on Wikipedia suggests that the results so far are as follows:

    Germany: Apple won 2 cases, Samsung won 2 more
    The Netherlands: Apple won initially, but it seems Samsung won on appeal
    England and Wales: Samsung won (pending appeal - Apple also lost its case against HTC, covering similar patents)

    Australia: Apple won an interim injunction, which was overturned pending the full trial.
    Japan: Samsung won
    South Korea: Apple and Samsung both lost

  83. Let me get this straight.... by Kaptain+Kruton · · Score: 1

    Google is accused of using its search service to direct users to its own services and to reduce the visibility of competing websites and services.

    So google is considered to be in the wrong because they don't promote their competition on their results. Tell me, do you typically see Burger King advertisements at McDonalds?

  84. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by ThatsMyNick · · Score: 1

    Did you think US is the only country that believes its laws apply worldwide and it knows no jurisdiction? Well, think again.

  85. In affect Google aren't allowed to advertise by fuliginous · · Score: 1

    Seems mad. Google might want to advertise their services so they seek out the most successful on line advertiser which is hmmmm Google? So they place their adds with them self and charge the going rate for advertising your own products which is nothing; meanwhile the users are completely able to go use a different search because unlike the world of OS or proprietary office formats the users aren't locked in?

    I don't get it unless members of the EU Commission all happen to be iPad users:-)

  86. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by khallow · · Score: 1

    while a foreign company has leverage to avoid it if it's not worth it to their business

    In other words, a means to chase foreign companies out of EU markets. The "leverage" to run like a whipped dog is not that advantageous to foreign firms.

  87. Re:EU needs money to give to Greece by khallow · · Score: 1

    Did you think US is the only country that believes its laws apply worldwide and it knows no jurisdiction?

    Why would I think that? Maybe I'm not the one who needs to think again.

  88. Well, that's interesting by Pecisk · · Score: 1

    EU anticompetition laws are quite complex and powerful, and they work (as Microsoft about that), but I have little doubts that I can fully see Google's fault here. It's one thing to promote yourself ahead of your clients - it's not forbidden. There is one slippery slope though and it will be interesting to see result of this investigation, which I trust more than "IT analysists".

    --
    user@ubuntubox:~$ stfu This server is going down for shutdown NOW!