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Stanford-NYU Report: Drone Attacks Illegal, Counterproductive
trbdavies writes "In 'Living Under Drones,' investigators from Stanford and NYU Law Schools report on interviews with 130 people in Pakistan about U.S.-led drone attacks there, including 69 survivors and family members of victims. The report affirms Bureau of Investigative Journalism numbers that count '474 to 884 civilian deaths since 2004, including 176 children' while 'only about 2% of drone casualties are top militant leaders.' It also argues that the attacks violate international law and are counterproductive, stating: 'Evidence suggests that US strikes have facilitated recruitment to violent non-state armed groups, and motivated further violent attacks One major study shows that 74% of Pakistanis now consider the U.S. an enemy.'"
Well, I guess it's time to hang up the drones, and dust of the ICBMs.
Without the baseline information the summary is clearly propaganda.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
If they don't want to get slaughtered they shouldn't live in Pakistan.
Or anywhere else which has been designated as a valid target state by the US...
Of the 176,745,364 people in Pakistan (according to World Bank), they chose 130 and managed to get more than half who were related to the "474 to 884" people who've died. You know, I could continue to point out the problems here, but it doesn't seem necessary. This entire "investigation" is complete and utter bullshit.
They ask terrorists (the "victims" of the drone attacks) how they feel about drones and you get the expected response. The number of "civilian" casualties cannot be confirmed or even reliably estimated since the terrorists dress like civilians. This piece of alleged journalism comes from the Bureau of Investigative Journalism which is a highly euphemistically named organization that is about as fair and balanced as Fox News.
When the guy who helped us find Bin Laden is stuck in jail, why would anyone want to help us out and be on 'our' side? There is no reason at all to support America, because they will not support you back when things get rough.
I always find the idea remote control killing to be the embodiment of what's wrong with humanity. So much technology, so much death.
If the US was interested in following the spirit (if not the letter) of the law, then you wouldn't have things like "Special Rendition". That the US use drone attacks in a country where it doesn't even have a "police action" going on is not surprising. This is just an example of the "Same ol' same ol' ..Ends justifies the means" that has been used for decades (if not since the beginning of the 20th century).
.. I know .. anti-american foreigner and all that. Been there, heard the criticism and got the free T-shirt. But if you won't listen when your friends say "Woooo dude .. that's way out of line there", then pretty soon you aren't going to have any friends left.
And yes
I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
On the other hand the Pakistan Military allowed the US to use Pakistani airbases for the drone strikes until 8 months ago, requested increased use of drone attacks in 2008, still offer tacit support for the drone attacks, and have themselves said most of those killed in drone strikes were terrorists, despite the political inconvenience of admitting this (by contrast, Pakistan always denied their connection to terrorists working against India in Kashmir, even when the connection was obvious).
The souring of relations with Pakistan centers on the raid on bin Laden, and just the natural friction between the US and a nation with a record of selling nuclear secrets on the black market, supporting the Taliban, and supporting terrorist actions against India.
Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
We win because there are fewer bad guys trying to kill Americans !! They win because they become martyrs, relocated to a land of milk and honey and naked women !! Win + Win !!
The evidence for the historical Jesus' existance is sketchy at best. Most likely he's a New Testament fiction.
Thanks, President Obama, for increasing the Predator drone program beyond Dick Cheney's wildest dreams. Thanks for keeping Habeas Corpus rolled back. Thanks for throwing your deep knowledge of the US Constitution into the toilet. You make Mr. Cheney proud.
You are kidding, right? The administration you mention is vast. Because of a name, its entirety should be exempt from scrutiny? Surely you couldn't find any articles critical of previous dynasties, I mean administrations. Maybe you should slither back to the Pentagon VIP-Room and get another mouthful so that at least your words will ooze more than air from your sock. Puppet. You must be.
The number of "civilian" casualties cannot be confirmed or even reliably estimated since the terrorists dress like civilians.
That's right, they could all be terrorists. Best to just kill them all.
how else will the contractors make money?
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
...you can't just go around killing people without making a few enemies.
There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
If you are fighting a war against terrorists, and you play by the rules, and they don't, you are going to lose.
If the Pakistanis like USA so much, why do they harbour Al Queda and the Talibans?
If the Pakistanis Muslims respect the Christians, why do they persecute the Christian minorities in their country?
Besides, the so-called "survey" is carried out by the liberals who themselves harbour so much hatred to the US of A.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Maintaining the network would be impossible. The Taliban (or whoever) just kills the family of whoever is supposed to do the tech work to keep the network up.
paintball
If you want to see hatred of the USA, go to a Tea Party rally
If the Pakistanis Muslims respect the Christians, why do they persecute the Christian minorities in their country?
'Cause you know, Muslims would never be persecuted in our country.
(Or Sikhs that the hate-mongers are too stupid to realize aren't Muslims.)
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
"illegal", no. The aerial bombing (the bombers being unmanned is irrelevant) of Pakistan would be an act of war were it not being done with the permission of the Pakistani government (they are neither trying to shoot down the bombers nor filing official complaints with the UN). As it is being done with permission, it is legally a bilateral Pakistani and USA affair. It is, unfortunately, not a violation of USA law and evidently not a violation of Pakistani law either. Until the givernment of Pakistan tries to stop it by, at minimum, formally demanding that it stop it is not legally anyone else's business (which is not to say it is not wrong: it is).
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
The real terrorists are the US military and their owners.
Right, because there is systematic and widespread persecution of Muslims in the USA. Stop drinking the koolaid, stop letting the media brainwash you, take your tinfoil hat off, and go outside and meet people. Even in Texas, in one of the most conservative towns (where I live), people have nothing but respect for Muslims.
If you really want to know how the Christian minority in Pakistan are being treated, here are some links you should explore:
http://www.pakistanchristianpost.com/headlinenewsd.php?hnewsid=2556
http://www.pakistanchristianpost.com/headlinenewsd.php?hnewsid=3659
http://www.pakistanchristianpost.com/vieweditorial.php?editorialid=23
http://www.pakistanchristianpost.com/headlinenewsd.php?hnewsid=3765
http://www.compassdirect.org/english/country/pakistan/15560
All the above links are all based on what actually had happened. They are not propaganda.
Unlike the liberals in the US who lives on anti-US propaganda, the Christian minority in Pakistan have no luxury at all living in the world of propaganda.
Every single day of their lives they have to go through the gauntlet of threats and insults.
Every single day some one from their community got beaten up or killed or raped or forcibly converted into Islam.
Every single day in their lives tragedy happens.
But you do not get to read any of that in the main stream media, do you?
That is because the Western main stream media, - from New York Times to Le Monde of France, - are being controlled by the liberals who hate Christianity more than anything else.
They will not report any news on the persecution of the Christian minority in Indonesia or in Pakistan.
But if ever there is a single case of Muslim being hurt or killed, you bet on the next day those liberal controlled main-stream-media will have their BIG HEADLINE blaring "Evil Christian killing peace loving Muslims !!!"
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
"On the other hand the Pakistan Military allowed the US to use Pakistani airbases for the drone strikes until 8 months ago, requested increased use of drone attacks in 2008, still offer tacit support for the drone attacks, and have themselves said most of those killed in drone strikes were terrorists, despite the political inconvenience of admitting this (by contrast, Pakistan always denied their connection to terrorists working against India in Kashmir, even when the connection was obvious)."
Do you know why the Pakistani government "admit" this? Because it gets them military and financial support from the US.
Admitting the same in the case of Kashmir does not, since if the US was going to support any country in the Kashmir conflict, it would be India.
Dissatisfaction with the current incompetent administration != hatred of the USA
By "they" you mean every single Pakistani? May as well talk about Americans because "they" made that stupid video, "they" pissed all over dead bodies, and "they" treat the middle east like a video game. As for liberals if you think they hate the country then you're clearly listening to too many one editorialists masquerading as journalists and should go out and talk to actual Americans and realize that they can cover a diverse range of political views without "hating" their country. If the wife wants you to fix up the leaky pipes do you complain that she hates your house, or do you just realize instead that you don't live in a perfect house and want to make it better?
The targets may posses child pr0n.
* Carthago Delenda Est *
Is the Pakistani government an enemy of the US and often works against US interests?
Yes.
Is the Pakistani government an ally of the US that shares intelligence with the US and often allows US military to operate on Pakistani soil?
Yes.
Isn't that schizophrenic?
Yep.
Like the US, Pakistan has an elected government. Unlike the US, it has governmental organs that aren't fully under the control of civilian elected officials. The Pakistani military and intelligence services are independent national institutions (Egypt is this way as well) and within those institutions you have various fiefdoms and power centers. The Egyptian military is this way as well, almost forming a distinct society within the society with its own economic and social welfare programs.
Imagine you have a country governed by warlords. There might be some order of precedence or honor which theoretically unifies the country, but still some of the those warlords might be your "friends" and others your enemies. There's nothing mystifying about that. Now imagine those petty rulers aren't warlords who control territory, but bureaucrats that control various state functions. It's not that different.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Solid science, dated from 2002, about a brown-skinned Jesus, right here:
hhttp://www.popularmechanics.com/science/health/forensics/1282186
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/07/03/opinion/bergen-drones-taliban-pakistan/index.html
The other 26% already had that opinion...
right, because the previous administration did SO MUCH to endear us to the world.
'only about 2% of drone casualties are top militant leaders.'
Most wars would stop fast, if 2% of casualties from the war were top leaders. It says something impressive both about the targeting ability of the US military and the resilience of the "militants" being targeted.
... hang up the drones, and dust of the ICBMs.
How you hang up dust? You're way more talented than I am.
'One major study shows that 74% of Pakistanis now consider the U.S. an enemy.'
So what. They considered us the enemy before this. They will consider us the enemy after this. Their religion teaches them to consider everyone not of their sect of their religion to be worthy of only death or enslavement. These are nasty, brutal people. They only understand strength. The only solution is to stop their terrorism and stop their support of terrorism against us.
Yes, in the early years the Pakistani government was tacitly (but not expliclity) co-operating, providing intelligence and even a base to operate from. That arrangement ended in early 2011. They have since repeatedly demanded that the attacks cease, and been steadfastly ignored by both the US Government and US media for their trouble.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
Even in Texas, in one of the most conservative towns (where I live), people have nothing but respect for Muslims.
I live next door, in a very conservative town that only a normal person (i.e. not a Texan or an Okie) would even be able to tell apart from a "conservative Texas town" ...and you can bet your anonymous ass that people (thanks to a combination of tee-vee and closet-homosexual preachers) fear and distrust Muslims... not that they'd know the difference; these people wouldn't know a Muslim if one crawled up their ass and made ham sandwiches...
Jesus was green, he was a deep one. He just went back to the ocean to worship his father. Ia Ia ryleh ftagn!
I know my god is real, and I know he is returning. When he does I will be waiting with a shotgun, and the last shell is for myself. (read Charles Stross or Cthulhu will eat your brain)
When I read a couple years ago that a strike had killed "mostly" militants, then the next day bombed everyone at the funeral... I felt suddenly empty. Who in their right mind would NOT think badly of the country responsible?
I love my country and consider myself quite patriotic, but these drone attacks are shameful. They should be stopped. Aside from the obvious moral imperative, there is the practicality of it: every time we kill another "al-Qaeda #2" with these cowardly half-blind strikes from the sky we create many more enemies.
Why do I hear so little protest here in the US? What can the average Joe do to raise hell about it?
And where is the press on all this? I'm tired of hearing about Mitt Romney's taxes and President Obama's birth certificate. Let's get real.
We've met the enemy...
Certainly better than your family members going to fight. To clarify: Would you rather have, for example, your son going to war with a significant chance they may not return? Or would you rather have them safe and sound next to you? Just making a point, not trying to start an argument.
What a strange thing to say. The videos/pictures/transcripts I read of tea party events were about as unabashedly patriotic as any.
not the point, the previous administration is gone (thankfully) sadly however they were replaced with bigger idiots. one can see the difference between partisan and stupid, the past 3 or 4 admins were just plain stupid, both D and R, but its been getting worse and worse, with each new admin taking more and more of our civil liberties away and spending our nation dry.
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
That's still about 25% more Pakistanis that see American's as allies than American's that see Pakistanis as such.
Since Sept 11 attacks killed 2,996 non combatants.
So I'm guessing your murder rate is a teeny weeny bit less justifiable.
assholes.
So the solution is to replace them with even bigger idiots?
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
"they" didnt make that video, 1 man made it, and the government has bent over backwards to condemn him rather than call attacks on over a dozen american embassies for what it is. Which is an act of war. The media is a joke, they are in the admins back pocket, and they have been forever. why? because these "reporters" care more about keeping their jobs than keeping their country.
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
Everyday general hate for America grows, be it 1st world or 3rd world. You can't demand of countries one thing then do what you want. For instance the 'you will let us use drones or we will use more invasive means' kind of comments. While I don't hate America they certainly don't have my love nor support. They are starting to feel the aftermath of the choices they have made in the world, and big boy on the playground runs of crying when his nose gets hit. I think people have the right to disrupt the lives of Americans when America's policies ruin their lives....even indirectly. You can't do the things america does to people and countries and not expect a backlash....they are 'only doing what they need to do to protect themselves'. See, it works both ways.
These are riots and not an act of war. An act of war would have to involve a government leading or promoting the attacks on embassies.
Sums up both wars pretty neatly, doesn't it?
Yes yes I know you all had the very best intentions *cough*. But if anything you now have turned old friends into very reluctant ones and created new enemies with abandon. No wonder your empire is increasingly seen as irrelevant. No, I don't care that you will forever claim whatever it is you'll claim today. You need "researchers" with forms and questionaires dropping by on your victims' families, polling them on their happiness and customer satisfaction about how their relatives got killed during some uncaring faceless drone in the sky, to tell you the bleeding obvious. And still you'll ignore it.
Anyway, let's not be gloomy, this is supposed to be a happy occasion. No talk about that weekend trip gone wrong in gloomy Afghanistan and those stroppy Pakistani allies that turned out to be such bores. Let's forget those tinpot dictators you kept on installing and removing, they keep on exploding in your face whichever way. Good handymen are so hard to get these days, yes you do end up having to do it all yourself, every time, mark my words. Someone should sue the manufacturer, that's the thing. How's the beard, dear? New barber I see? Not a good one? Need an industrial vermin exterminator now? oh dear. How's gitmo, these days? Still a pain in the neck? That salve the doctor ordered didn't work? Here, let me feign some false sympathy for you, old pal. Doctors these days, think they know the answer to you name it, everything, but what do they know? Quacks, the lot of them.
No, not forever. George W. Bush started that trend. Before that, the media were remarkably critical of the administration. Remember the whole Monica Lewinsky thing?
That all changed the day Bush Jr. got into office. He seriously curtailed the White House press corps, punishing people who asked tough questions by pushing them to the back row, threatening to remove media outlets entirely if they were too critical of the administration, etc. Since then, if Helen Thomas's comments are any indication, Obama has only cranked up the abuse a notch further.
It won't end until the public demands an apolitical regulatory body to oversee membership in the press corps and enforce fairness during press briefings.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
Muslims are treated many times better in the western world than Christians are in ANY predominately Muslim country.
I guess that depends on whether or not shouting, "all the mex-ee-cans are the turrurists and the muslaams want to eat our childrun" is unpatriotic, if you're wearing an american flag like a dirty t-shirt.
I think this level of understanding of foreign policy matters in countries like Pakistan exceeds most of the staff of both the Defense and State Depts.
Think 'Balmer throwing chairs and tables out windows'.
Obama is so PISSED OFF that he's writing a new and very secret secret Execution Order.
The SS EO will require all the agencies of Department of Justice and Department of State
and the Central Intelligence Agency to HUNT DOWN and TAKE DOWN the 130 hapless few
of the Stanford and New York University study.
Ah. Our 'President' in 'Action' again ... just warms the cockles doesn't it. Our Tax Dollars
going to killers. What a democracy 'Fools Circus' we have I tell you now.
And Obama-Boy is the Grand Fool in the Center Ring.
8D
ou812
drones are tools of cowardly war criminals
Tea Partiers hate far more than just the current administration. They hate women's rights, they hate gay rights, they hate minority rights
You better come up with solid proof of what you said.
The term "TEA" stands for Tax Enough Already
The TEA party is about TAX - yes, TAX
It has nothing to do with hating women rights, or hating gays, or hating minority.
If you can't come up with solid proof of what you said, you are nothing but a pathetic liberal troll !
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
And this makes indiscriminate murder(*) OK then?
Remember, when the news media quotes Obama's administration as having killed "militants", all it means is a man or boy killed by drone. It doesn't mean the people were militants in the traditional sense.
http://www.salon.com/2012/05/29/militants_media_propaganda/
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
and killed my family, halted most businesses, cut global trade routes, and added more radiation to my country than ww3 could have ever done... Of course I don't live there but I sympathies with Pakistan people because what the US is doing is illegal and it's just abusive. Not even China is pushing this much tyranny.
Obama Admin spin to protect Hillary. There was no riot at all outside the Libyan embassy. It was a planned attack -- had nothing to do with a stupid youtube video either. It's about getting revenge on people who kill you. You'd do the same thing given half a chance to a Chinese embassy if China treated us like we treat others.
Anyway, the whole lie about the embassy is "anchor and adjust" -- tell a lie to get people anchored to an idea, then when the truth comes out, people will adjust their thinking to maintain belief in the original bullshit, like "a video is all it takes for an attack -- such savages!"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/sep/20/obama-officials-spin-benghazi-attack
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
I'd say it's actually quite accurate if you view the USA as made up of people and not an abstract entity.
Y'all drank the kool aid and now think dead children are acceptable collateral damage in a war against a tactic. This is shameful.
The war on terror will never be won by more terror. We are all going to lose.
Also remember that what the Obama administration means when it says "militant", is a man or a boy killed by a drone. It will revert that to civilian if it is conclusively proven after the fact the person was innocent by some mystical secret standard. In other words, a great many of the "militants" really weren't.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/obamas-leadership-in-war-on-al-qaeda.html?pagewanted=4&_r=2
from page 4
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
...I do not think you know that it's an ethnic slur.
I think the original point was that 70 year old women that yells angry things about our tax code is somehow just as hateful as the muslims blowing places up with human beings inside. Ridiculous, of course. I mean... the latest excuse-of-the-day for savage murder is provocation by YouTube.
We've all been trying real hard to make excuses for the psychotic, religious fuckbags in those places for decades now. It hasn't helped, and it's really getting old. I'm starting to drift over to the, "fuck it, let them all kill each other" side. I call it the Western Europe approach.
Obama Democrats: The NEW GOP, now with MORE evil than ever before!
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
We shot up their villages and sent bombs etc. Isn't that good enough? What more do they want.
-josh
I think you're confusing "idiots" with "tyrants". Stripping us of our civil liberties without without triggering a revolt or even widespread protests is hardly the accomplishment of an idiot.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
How can a lethal technology have a 98% error rate?
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
Wow. How pathetically superficial of you. You do realize that the most patriotic of pretty much any group I have ever known of is the KKK? They wear the flag with pride, love the USA, and most importantly GOD!!!
What a fool you are if you think dressing like the founding fathers represents anything.
We need idiots that go to eleven
Seeing that the facts for the article's report was diligently gathered from all those Pakistanis that just happened to standing a bit to close the target makes the report sound pretty weak. We might as well go back to carpet bombing since the results would hardly be worse than they are now. As it stands the vast majority of the US public doesn't give 2 shits about anyone in the middle east and prefer to spend their time dealing with their own problems. On the other hand if you want to talk to some folks who really hate Pakistan and anything associated with Pakistan go ask an Indian for his views on that wonderful country.
Gee, you think? Why not say something like:
"guns, bullets unpopular with shooting victims and their relatives."
USC is the Trojans. Stanford is the Tree.
I WAS watching the news during Clinton, and the news was NOT hard on him. The news was laughing about it. The news said it was silly to go after Clinton for doing what European leaders do all the time, gosh, it's just a blowjob.
Alternatively, GW was called a monkey incessantly.
People who say the media has a liberal bias aren't making that up. It does. Realistically, it doesn't matter, but it's there.
I would avoid bringing Helen Thomas's comments into anything at all. The poor woman's age has caught her and her mind is not and has not been what it once was, and to throw her words around is nothing but making a mockery of her senility.
... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about.
I'm sick of the know-better Christian Right and of Zion Israelis, and would never think that killing them is an acceptable idea, I also think both groups are as harmful as the insane zealot Muslim minority.
The second that mass murder sounds like a good solution, you are no better than whoever you hate.
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
You are confused. The drones are killing cowardly war criminals - that is what Al Qaida is.
No, not forever. George W. Bush started that trend. Before that, the media were remarkably critical of the administration. Remember the whole Monica Lewinsky thing?
Yep, I sure do.
I remember a media blitz attacking Republicans like Newt Gingrich ("He had an affair! He divorced his dying wife!!!eleven").
I remember a Republican congressman resigning when his extramarital affair was disclosed.
I remember organizations urging us to "Move On" from this scandal.
I guess you 'remember' differently.
You misspelled Democratic National Convention. FTFY.
If the Pakistanis Muslims respect the Christians, why do they persecute the Christian minorities in their country?
'Cause you know, Muslims would never be persecuted in our country.
(Or Sikhs that the hate-mongers are too stupid to realize aren't Muslims.)
In Pakistan when someone starts shooting up a Christian church, crowds gather and join in. Authorities stand by idly or find other things to do.
In your example, the authorities showed up and stopped it, and some died in the process. Crowds gathered to light candles for the victims.
I don't think you could have found a better example of how our society reacts in a completely different fashion than theirs does.
Countries are squeamish about their embassies, probably because they know how easy it is allow riots to destroy one. Not protecting an embassy properly is, if not an act of war, a casus belli for the country whos embassy it was. If I can trust my media (and I am not sure I can), some of the embassies were overrun by far smaller demonstrations than what the police have earlier demonstrated that they could control. It could simply be failing to predict the size of the riots, and the US certainly doesn't want worse relationships with the north African/middle eastern countries, so it will be played down, but had there been a different level of international tension, these riots would be bad for international relationships, to the point where wars could be started over them.
Is this the same 74% who wanted to lynch a 14 year old mentally handicapped christian girl for burning pieces of paper she had found as litter? Who was framed as proven by Pakistans own police force by a Muslim cleric? The girl that even after the police said there was no case at all, still has to be in hiding from these 74% of Pakistanies AND defend herself in court for something that didn't happen and the police says so?
Well. fuck them then. Pakistan was a hell hole long before drone strikes, read up on the dark ages and then condense the centuries into a couple of decades. That is Pakistan. I am wrong? Then show me the immigration vs emmigration numbers. Any place that has more people leaving then coming in, can't be a nice place.
Que down mod by a bleeding heart who loves Muslims but not so much as to live the same neighborhood and is against the war for oil but drives a SUV.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
And maybe if Pakistan was a Christian country, it wouldn't be in the same state as it is.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Wow! You've reached a new level of stupidity. Nice going!
Arabs make good soldiers, if led by white officers. Opinion given by several British leaders.
This is not quite the same kind of racism as Americans denying blacks fighting positions in the army because of bad night vision and other silly things (since a common prejudice is that blacks are stronger, larger and more violent, they would make the logical choice for grunts) but not a lot.
The so-called intellectuals think of those lesser then them as children that can't be hold to the same standards. They see those that disagree with them as people who need education to be brought up to the same level as them. You are not wrong for disagreeing them, just not enlightened enough.
And Muslims to them are eternal children whose antics you just ignore expecting the nanny to sort out the mess. On occasion the nanny is instructed to ready one child for presentation and this child is then expected to perform or else. Just watch these people deal with any Muslim who dares to agree with un-enlightened and have criticism of extremists and those that appease them. They are THE ENEMY, who should be destroyed for their wrong views!
This kind of racism is very hard to destroy because a normal racists knows he is racist and might be persuaded by facts or kept in line by laws.
But there are no laws against hugging a group into submission.
Think of this. The most powerful man on earth is black. Yet how many still think blacks need lots of handholds to achieve anything as complex as a steady job? And I do mean blacks NOT people who are under privileged or come from a bad background, those people could just as easily be white or brown or green. No, check for people who still think people with a black skin need their hands hold BECAUSE they are black. Regardless of how well an individual might be doing, they see a black person, they see a person in need of aid.
That is just as racist as seeing a black person and seeing a lesser person. But you can proof yourself against those racists by excelling. You cannot escape the "awh, you poor thing, let me help you" racism.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
I very well understand,
in 1968 also Czechoslovakia invited the russian army to protect against contrarevolution, you know
First, that's bullshit. I'm not even a little religious, but the worst of the christians in this country are mousey little librarians by comparison. We did that, in part, by lopping religion off at the knees. And let's be clear, nobody is advocating for mass murder except foreign muslims.
It's not like I have a problem with islam specifically, or anyone's skin tone. I'd give the muslim a few doors down the shirt off my back if he needed it, without question, because he's an American, my neighbor, and I'm sure he's a decent human being. I'm saying that I'm tired of dealing with a massive percentage of the world population that doesn't care about anything more than destroying everything around them in the name of allah. You want to stone your women, blow up rival religious goups and buildings, burn schools, subjugate neighbors and kill people over the clothes they wear? Well that sounds stupid, but it's your 150 degree sandpile. Most of our energy resources come from places other than the middle east, and we can increase utilization of our vast domestic resources with some of that $1+ trillion a year we'll be saving.
Just don't try any more of that crazy shit here, or we'll just start fucking up everything you've ever known. We've spent more time and money trying to take the death out of war than any civilization in the history of our species. Obviously, it's something that has never been mastered (and never will). Guess what it would look like if the gloves actually came off. And the Israelis? Well... I'd be careful around them. Personally, I wouldn't want to be on the business end of those guys when we put both hands in the air and say "you're off the leash, do whatever you think you have to".
Sooo... how is that Nobel Peace Prize working out, eh?
I don't have to imagine. USA! USA! USA!
Did anyone else read that as "but but Bush..."?
Wrapping a flag and 9/11 around it doesn't make it any less murder and terrorising of innocent people.
We are sowing the seeds for the next war, and it ain't gonna be pretty.
Proverbs 21:19
Subject says it all.
When I read a report like this, or hear about "collateral damage" in drone strikes and other US operations, I feel a constant need to apologize to my foreign friends for what the US has started to stand for. It's appalling, really. A bit ironic that Obama has been accused of apologizing for America while all this time ratcheting up the drone strikes. I have little evidence that Romney would end the conflicts, either. In fact his hard line on Israel and Iran indicates we're likely not going to see the end of conflict anytime soon. So no matter who gets elected, I want the world to know I am truly sorry!
Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. - Samuel Johnson
I have no problems with patriotism, but the false patriotism being warned about and being displayed by the TP, should give most of us pause.
Moral: don't associate with shitheads, their death magnets.
They can have my command prompt when they pry it from my cold dead fingers.
Because pissing off the entire world with such outrages makes us ever so much more safe, especially when you can blame a film with suspect provenance.
Of course you could lock people up with no particular relevant basis of guilt or combatancy in some cases and subject them to psyops for years and years, and then release them without so much as an apology, or at least a bowl of hash and a virgin or two, and tell them to go home and be good. Oh, wait....
Rogue Drone
But these warlords unite to fight against "infidels".
Casteism
NOT considered teh US an enemy? They have long been the training ground for terrorists.
And by the way ... There is no such thing as an innocent bystander ... if they are in and around the 'targets' they are not innocent. Total and complete BS.
When news recently broke about President Obama signing death warrants for American citizens without judicial review, Republicans were outraged because they thought this made the President look too awesome. It's crazy that the Executive Branch has usurped the right to secretly review the evidence against an American then blow him away by droneâ"the executioner has become the judge.
This was the logical consequence, by the way, of the decision to hold military tribunals (under the Executive Branch) for suspected terrorists rather than a proper Article III (i.e., Judicial Branch) Court in New York. We are in the era of the unitary Executive Branch, which has the power to try suspects in secret and execute them if necessary.
I agree with you. Why can't we have an opposition party that focuses on important things rather than bullshit like Obama's birth certificate or whether gays can marry?
A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
First, that's bullshit. I'm not even a little religious, but the worst of the christians in this country are mousey little librarians by comparison. We did that, in part, by lopping religion off at the knees. And let's be clear, nobody is advocating for mass murder except foreign muslims.
This is arguable, considering the theological bent of America, and some of our actions abroad. Further, our resident Christians (not all of them, obviously, probably not even a majority, but a very powerful and vocal minority) are also slowly ramping up the crazy at home. They're already targetting gays, women, and children, and have the sights set higher. Sure they aren't as big of a threat yet, but given a chance they would be just as bad.
Sure, we "lopped religion off at the knees", but as any of the Libertarians or Tea Party folk (I'm neither) will tell you, the Constitution can be ignored, and mostly is. It isn't a protection from destructive "know better" nuts.
I'm saying that I'm tired of dealing with a massive percentage of the world population that doesn't care about anything more than destroying everything around them in the name of allah.
This is my problem. The percentage isn't really that massive. Islam is the second biggest religion on earth, and is more fractuous than Christianity or Judism, so its hard to really tell how massive the percentage of would-be terrorists actually is. Even in countries with pretty terrible Govermnents (Saudi Arabia, or Iran, to state the most obvious), its hard to tell how many of the people living in these countries support, or even give a damn, about terrorism. Think of America, I could easily decide that we're a country of anti-science, pro-war, ignorant Christian Evangelicals. As an American dove, atheist, nerd, who mostly associates with a large group of well educated, sceptical types, I can say that this is wrong. Further, looking at my family, most of them don't care about big politico-philosophical ideals, since they are too busy trying to make a living, raise their families, and generally get along during their breif span on this planet. I'm guessing the average resident of Iran is in the same boat as my average relatives.
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
+infiniti
one of the few times I really wish I had some mod points...
Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
But these warlords unite to fight against "infidels".
I know it makes things simpler to lump all Muslims in together; but don't forget, the Pakistani Taliban is hostile to the government in Islamabad, and it kills other Pakistani Muslims pretty much exclusively. It particularly targets Sufi pilgrimage sites which are wildly popular there.
Imagine you're an ambitious senior military officer with a secular lifestyle, a career dependent upon US military aid, and a Punjabi family with Sufi religious affiliations. Would you want to help a fanatical Pashtun tribesman who just blew up a bunch of your family members while they were worshiping? Or his Arab ally who wants to make Pakistan part of an Arab dominated caliphate? Hell no. If this guy had Osama bin Laden in his crosshairs we could count on him to pull the trigger. The problem is this guy probably has people working for him who are Taliban sympathizers, and they don't necessarily advertise the fact. That's why we had to send US SEALs to kill OBL, but in doing so we handed our friendly officer a triple humiliation, demonstrating that the Pakistanis couldn't find OBL, couldn't be trusted with the whereabouts of OBL, and couldn't stop America from doing whatever the hell we pleased on Pakistani soil.
The drone strikes are similar. There's good reasons to do them, but at the same time they humiliate and weaken our allies and radicalize everyone else. It is possible that those strikes are the right thing to do, but we have to be realistic about the unintended consequences. Pakistan is uniquely dangerous in that it is a nuclear power in an unstable region with significant potential for radical power shifts. We do not want to screw this up.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Do you think that American drones over Pakistan have some kind of Christian/Muslim detector that is used before making a strike, or something?
US unilaterally declares any male victim of a drone strike to be a "militant" by default, unless there's any evidence presented to the contrary.
Why shouldn't people be attacking the Obama administration for the things that it clearly fucks up?
I think this level of understanding of foreign policy matters in countries like Pakistan exceeds most of the staff of both the Defense and State Depts.
Since we're attacking people today, I can understand why you wouldn't know your head from your ass with your head so far up your ass.
State and Defense are both filled to the brim with people who understand foreign affairs. Unless your last name is Waltz, there's a pretty good chance they understand it a hell of a lot better than you do. Even the average grunt in Afghanistan has a good understanding of the situation.
If you want to see complete ignorance of foreign cultures, I recommend the following: mainstream media coverage, Fox News, Mitt Romney 2.0, and the Tea Party. To cure your own ignorance, talk to a few foreign service officers and a few vets.
SWM seeks new sig for a brief fling
The fact that the media were also critical of hypocrites who attacked people for doing the same thing that they themselves were doing does not negate the fact that the media were critical of Clinton and made minor celebrities out of Linda Tripp and Monica Lewinsky, often going into detail that was downright disgusting and inappropriate for younger viewers in an almost "if it bleeds, it leads" sort of way, rather like sharks circling an injured sea lion. The fact is that the media made a big deal out of what should have been a private matter between the President and his wife. The Republicans certainly fanned the flames, but the media were quite complicit. If that's being "in the administration's pocket", I'd hate to think what a truly independent media would have done. I mean, they'd have had a hard time creating more negative press for Clinton short of airing a sex tape during prime time.
I also remember the rather unflattering media coverage of Whitewater, somewhat excessive coverage of Bill Clinton's brother, and (back in the Reagan years) extended coverage of Iran Contra. None of those stories were flattering to the sitting President at the time. And Watergate? The news media basically ran Nixon out of town on a rail. Don't give me that "It has always been this way" crap. Things have backslid pretty severely as of late. We can argue about the time scale, but the media is definitely a much less effective watchdog today than it was thirty or forty years ago.
Honestly, a big part of the blame rests on highly partisan news outlets like Fox News. By presenting such severely biased reporting as news, they have almost single-handedly undermined the credibility of news reporting. By convincing such a large number of people that their skewed reality is truth, it doesn't matter how many other news outlets give truly balanced reporting—a significant chunk of the population will continue to believe that Obama wasn't born in the U.S. or other outright fabrications.
And the end result of their skew was that the other side had to come up with a counter-skew, a.k.a. MSNBC, that skews the news firmly in the opposite direction. So now we have a big chunk of people getting their news from an outlet skewed way to the left and another getting their news from an outlet skewed way to the right, and everybody else trying to achieve balance—not by calling both sides on their lies and praising them for their truths, but by presenting both sides' lies as though they were equally valid truths. And in the end, you're left with Comedy Central being one of the most unbiased sources of news because they're the only ones who aren't afraid to editorialize and call politicians on the utter bulls**t that comes out of their mouths.
No, news coverage of politics is much, much worse than it was in the 80s and 90s. What we have now is just a pale shadow of what we used to have.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
http://www.pdfernhout.net/recognizing-irony-is-a-key-to-transcending-militarism.html
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Military robots like drones are ironic because they are created essentially to force humans to work like robots in an industrialized social order. Why not just create industrial robots to do the work instead?
Nuclear weapons are ironic because they are about using space age systems to fight over oil and land. Why not just use advanced materials as found in nuclear missiles to make renewable energy sources (like windmills or solar panels) to replace oil, or why not use rocketry to move into space by building space habitats for more land?
Biological weapons like genetically-engineered plagues are ironic because they are about using advanced life-altering biotechnology to fight over which old-fashioned humans get to occupy the planet. Why not just use advanced biotech to let people pick their skin color, or to create living arkologies and agricultural abundance for everyone everywhere?
These militaristic socio-economic ironies would be hilarious if they were not so deadly serious. Here is some dark humor I wrote on the topic: A post-scarcity "Downfall" parody remix of the bunker scene. See also a little ironic story I wrote on trying to talk the USA out of collective suicide because it feels "Burdened by Bags of Sand". Or this YouTube video I put together: The Richest Man in the World: A parable about structural unemployment and a basic income.
Likewise, even United States three-letter agencies like the NSA and the CIA, as well as their foreign counterparts, are becoming ironic institutions in many ways. Despite probably having more computing power per square foot than any other place in the world, they seem not to have thought much about the implications of all that computer power and organized information to transform the world into a place of abundance for all. Cheap computing makes possible just about cheap everything else, as does the ability to make better designs through shared computing. I discuss that at length here: http://www.pdfernhout.net/post-scarcity-princeton.html
There is a fundamental mismatch between 21st century reality and 20th century security thinking. Those "security" agencies are using those tools of abundance, cooperation, and sharing mainly from a mindset of scarcity, competition, and secrecy. Given the power of 21st century technology as an amplifier (including as weapons of mass destruction), a scarcity-based approach to using such technology ultimately is just making us all insecure. Such powerful technologies of abundance, designed, organized, and used from a mindset of scarcity could well ironically doom us all whether through military robots, nukes, plagues, propaganda, or whatever else... Or alternatively, as Bucky Fuller and others have suggested, we could use such technologies to build a world that is abundant and secure for all. ...
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
I'm probably not going to get much love for saying so, but my cynical side says, "That is exactly what is expected." The MIC wins, financially when their products generate more conflict than they suppress.
The powers that be won't loose the ICBMs, but I have little doubt that agitating the ME states with drones is quite desirable, from a economic standpoint.
Why do I hear so little protest here in the US? What can the average Joe do to raise hell about it?
Nothing, unless you want to be labelled as a terrorist and imprisoned in gitmo. That's what it comes down to now. You protest against what the fed does to someone else, then you must be one of them and will be dealt with appropriately.
What can we do now? Well, back in the day, all arms were considered equal and is one reason our bill or rights was so worthy. Now, how would our government controlled pea shooters stand up against tanks, large calibur automatic weapons and missiles? Out goverment really is out of control.
Thanks for the comment, and you make several good points. Still, the fictional character "Atticus Finch" said in "To Kill a Mockingbird", "The easiest way to get shot is to carry a gun". These days, the easiest way to get nuked (or invaded or quarantined) is to have a nuclear ICBM or start building one. With one ICBM, you'd be the world's next North Korea. I know you were probably just saying that to make a point, but as a counter-point, is nuclear blackmail really the way you would want to get your liveliehood if you could do it? Do you want to be the next tin-pot dictator always waiting for the assassin's blow? Do you want to preside over a land where people are starving to death (like North Korea in the past) because you care more about power than the people? Here you are using the most advanced communications system for sharing knowledge the world has ever known (the internet, and sites like slashdot) and what you have shared right now is a strategy for nuclear blackmail. It also sounds a bit like you are trying to dissuade others from trying to make the world a more joyful and healthy and more secure place (by over-emphasizing the point that there are some anti-social people out there)?
As I write in that essay, there are new ways of thinking about security.
http://www.pdfernhout.net/recognizing-irony-is-a-key-to-transcending-militarism.html
"The big problem is that all these new war machines and the surrounding infrastructure are created with the tools of abundance. The irony is that these tools of abundance are being wielded by people still obsessed with fighting over scarcity. So, the scarcity-based political mindset driving the military uses the technologies of abundance to create artificial scarcity. That is a tremendously deep irony that remains so far unappreciated by the mainstream. We the people need to redefine security in a sustainable and resilient way. Much current US military doctrine is based around unilateral security ("I'm safe because you are nervous") and extrinsic security ("I'm safe despite long supply lines because I have a bunch of soldiers to defend them"), which both lead to expensive arms races. We need as a society to move to other paradigms like Morton Deutsch's mutual security ("We're all looking out for each other's safety") and Amory Lovin's intrinsic security ("Our redundant decentralized local systems can take a lot of pounding whether from storm, earthquake, or bombs and would still would keep working")."
I am advocating for mutual security and intrinsic security. It sounds to me like you are re-affirming the old ways towards security, like unilateral dominance through a big military, which will be ultimately self-defeating with modern technology. What good is a US aircraft carrier in battle when one small smart missile could sink it? :-)
http://exiledonline.com/the-war-nerd-this-is-how-the-carriers-will-die/
http://www.usni.org/news-and-features/chinese-kill-weapon
Or where it could someday be infiltrated by a nanotech-based rust monster?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_monster
What good is your nuclear ICBM when someone (or something) figures out how to explode it in the silo or retarget it at your home city to make you the slave?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus:_The_Forbin_Project
The balance is changing. The world is a smaller place. I don't like to use "overpopulation" to describe the process because that implies the solution is to get rid of lots of people. I better term might be "under-resourced" or "under-landed" or "under-expanded".
http://www.juliansimon.com
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
To agree first with your second point, that none of us are morally perfect (and taking "perfect" as meaning some paragon of altruistic virtue?), there are two aspects of that I might call metaphysical and economic. After commenting on those, I will respond to your first point on defectors or parasites.
A metaphysical point about moral imperfection is that some level of competition seems inherent in our physical and temporal universe. This seems to derive from the limits of physical resources in an area at a particular time as processed by a sense of identity with certain biochemical and intellectual limits (and in the presence of other entities with a different sense of identity to some degree). For example, an oak tree may be a wonder of trillions of cells cooperating to reach up hundreds of feet in the air, but a tree will also brutally shade out all other plant life below it causing a dead zone underneath with no other plants. So, a tree is passively competitive for the resource of sunlight even when it seems like nothing is going on. A tree may also put put chemicals in the soil to inhibit the growth of other plants, and yet it may invest massive amounts of resources as seeds like acorns to create a next generation of on average just one more tree (while also feeding a bunch of squirrels). The human condition is no different. The human body is also a miracle of cooperation of trillions of cells, but the human immune system of even the most altruistic soul will still kill off bacteria and viruses that it identifies as "not self". Some cells go "cancerous" and start multiplying on their own at a cost to the whole. So cancer is basically an individual cell defecting from an obedient cooperative role in the body. The human "body" is also something like 90% bacteria by numbers (mostly in the gut). The human immune system and human cellular matrix essentially acts a bit like a constitution and infrastructure to support that bacterial ecosystem (including rejecting some bacterial processes). So, this issue of life (identity?) seems to involve in practice some mix of cooperation and competition. This complexity of both cooperation and competition seems inherent in the metaphysics of this plane of realty as best we know. Whether we can fully transcend that competitive aspect on this plane of existence is a deep spiritual question to which I do not have a definitive answer. Even a choice to stop killing plant cells by eating them is a choice to let trillions of human and bacterial cells die in your own body, as well as a choice to limit future thoughts for possible better solution or future actions to help others and the planet (like by creating lunar greenhouses for more plant life). There just is, so far as I know, no easy answer to this metaphysical issue of competition amidst cooperation -- even though plenty of people would be more than happy to supply such an answer or to accept one as some form of a pre-thought-out religion. Since a life lived in existential angst and conflict will generally reduce fecundity, there are even evolutionary arguments for the success of religions that deny evolution: :-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_origin_of_religions
The economic point about moral imperfection is that as long as we try to be an economic actor in the current economic system, we are essentially morally compromised due to what is easy or difficult economically as we make various tradeoffs. For example, if you are a plumber, you are in a noble profession that has probably done more for human health over the last century (through improved sanitation) than all the doctors in the world. But if the plastic piping you install today did not have all of the true costs of oil paid up front (pollution, war, uncertainty), then you are to some extent contributing to the problem of an immoral economy via an "externality" (an unpaid cost passed on to others). If you are a software developer making entertaining games
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.