EU Set To Charge Microsoft Over Ruling Breach

New submitter quippe writes in with some bad news for Microsoft. "Microsoft Corp will be charged for failing to comply with a 2009 ruling ordering it to offer a choice of web browsers, the European Union's antitrust chief said on Thursday, which could mean a hefty fine for the company. U.S.-based Microsoft's more than decade-long battle with the European Commission has already landed it with fines totaling more than a billion euros ($1.28 billion). The Commission, which opened an investigation into the issue in July, is now preparing formal charges against the company, EU Competition Commissioner Joaquin Almunia said."

Comments

I hope they use it wisely

[Anonymous Coward]

And not just bail out Spain and Greece

Re:I hope they use it wisely

[Anonymous Coward]

You, sir, know nothing about politics.

Re:I hope they use it wisely

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, he does. Sort of. FOXNews-politics and DailyMail-politics.

Re:I hope they use it wisely

[Vinegar Joe]

You're wasting your time. You're talking about people who are too stupid to download Firefox or Chrome without government involvement.

They have to ban Windows in EU

[aglider]

If they want to really make any pressure on MS.
If I fail to pay the fines to city police, they seize my car until I pay.
The law should be equal to everyone.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah, what would make a bigger impact is to revoke Microsoft's copyright in the EU and splash MS software downloads all over the governments websites.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[pahles]

Do you suggest they raid almost every home in the EU to seize all Windows computers? Or do you want the EU to make it impossible for Microsoft to send updates to Windows computers? Or do you want the EU to detain all Microsoft CEOs (or whatever they're called), like they did in Brazil with the Google CEO? Please tell me what it is you want if you say they should ban Windows?

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[AliasMarlowe]

Nah, what would make a bigger impact is to revoke Microsoft's copyright in the EU and splash MS software downloads all over the governments websites.

And that might have the "unintended" consequences of hurting sales of Apple's shiny-shitty (not exactly a disaster), hurting adoption of Linux and LibreOffice (sad, but not affecting very many), and slightly boosting the sales of anyone making software for Windows (the biggest tragedy).

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[Anonymous Coward]

It would be sufficient to ban them from taking any further licensing fees in the EU.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe he meant with banning is to not allow selling any new windows's and NEW computers with windows pre-installed.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[mumblestheclown]

So, you still honestly think that linux has a snowball's chance in hell on the desktop?

The mass shift from PC to Mac by many users show conclusively that the fabled "lock in" and "path dependence" with regards to consumer operating systems that you guys have always used as your excuse for why linux wasn't doing well was more myth than fact. The simple reality is that linux on the desktop, as it is now and certainly as it was in its heyday when it was on the cover of major magazines as the "next big thing" has been judged by the market and has been found wanting. If you're giving it away and still find adoption rates are near zero, at some point it's time to realize that your product just isn't as good as alternatives out there.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[pointyhat]

That's a bit naive.

People really need to understand exactly how important Microsoft is to the world if you like that concept or not. They provide the computing infrastructure for all your utilities and all your jobs. Everything is machine driven these days and they are the first choice vendor because to be honest, their shit works, is cheap and there are plenty of skilled people out there.

If this was to happend, first the importers will fall, then the resellers, then the e-commerce outlets, then the businesses, then the consumers, then the food chain. I don't really want to be in that world.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[Anonymous Coward]

"Please tell me what it is you want if you say they should ban Windows?"

What the parent would have meant, most likely, is the ban of further sales of Windows in the EU. Not exactly rocket science here. This would mean no more Windows PCs available in shops, and any PC preloaded with Windows trying to be imported would risk being seized at the border.

It would likely mean any PC trying to be imported would end up in customs as well if they were going to be serious about it.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[aglider]

Eu commission should simply ban Windows for downloads, sales, updates, cloudy stuff and so on.
Just like (or more strict than) cocaine. It's forbidden to have, to sell, to use, to show and so on.
Placing a fine without any result but making money is useless as far as the law enforcement is concerned.
If the EU MS offices/officials would break the law, then they'd apply the law for illegal acts.
Your question should have been: and what should we do in the meantime?
My answer is: use the alternatives (Solaris, Linux or OS X) which comply with the law.
You have to change your habits, of course as it's hard to use a different OS to mimik Windows.
And it's doable: we successfully did already so when we jumped from DOS to Windows95.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[Anonymous Coward]

The mass shift from PC to Mac by many users show conclusively that the fabled "lock in" and "path dependence" with regards to consumer operating systems that you guys have always used as your excuse for why linux wasn't doing well was more myth than fact

No. No, no, no, no, NO!

Do you REALLY believe that vendor lock-in did not and does not exist? It does. Want to take a guess at the cost to hire programmers to write a piece of software to the level of Word 97 to run on varying arcitecture, no OS inbetween, working the same way with the same window display and without getting sued?

Linux on the desktop ... has been judged by the market and has been found wanting

And thus to my point. The market (which is only just becoming computer-savvy) found it didn't work the same as Microsoft Office, and most help sites only helped with windows. Thus everyone complained that openoffice and staroffice didn't work EXACTLY the same as microsoft office - the only piece of software 90% of people knew, understood and could train people in. Where it failed extremely was not allowing the automatic opening and saving in Word format (which microsoft changed a few years later anyway), which made headaches for inter-company communication.
Now we've had technically minded people in the workforce for a number of years, and software has become modular and way, way more complex. Complex in this case meaning that a few lines of code by a code monkey extrapolates out to complex routines that used to require a geniuses to work out or a ton of code written.
Thus programs are being written far more easily, and ported between multiple platforms in far less time. There are far more developers writing software as well.

The real blow to linux adoption that I see at the moment is due to Mac. They took the "right" path - re-released their own version of *nix, and they gained their software base. Which happens to already have Windows emulators. Hey presto, you now have a machine that's the best of all three worlds - and the *nix part is already intergrated.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[aglider]

Microsoft OS is not important, they don't provide any infrastructure at all.
Servers running Linux and other Unix-like OSes are much more important.
Most of the PCs you see in offices just run a browser to access a centralized application. When HTML5 will be made the standard, this situation will become more and more widespread.
Microsoft Internet Explorer is not important any more. But it should be just a browser, not a piece of software tightly bolted into the OS.
And when you buy a brand new PC you have to pay also for Windows in almost all the world. whether you like it or not.
Shops could have PCs without any OS on the shelves. It's be up to the customer to ask for an OS of they choice and later on to choose the browser they like.

NO, you are definitely wrong. Microsoft is not important. Freedom is.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[philip.paradis]

Speaking as someone who's been using Linux and championing it in server and limited, special purpose desktop environments since the 90s, I wholeheartedly agree with your general premise. That said, I think there's an important lesson here that you probably see yourself, but didn't express.

Apple went from Mac OS 9 in 1999 (the final progression in the "classic" series beginning with 1.0 in 1984, closely followed by Windows 1.0 in 1985 [albeit only a highly limited MS-DOS graphical shell]) to Mac OS X in 1999/2000 following the purchase of NeXT in the 90s. This essentially meant Mac OS became a *nix operating system with a pretty GUI; the emphasis on its lineage is further reinforced by the release of Mac OS X Sever prior to a general desktop OS release. Especially considering the company's prior struggles and obvious challenges maintaining its existence as an integrated systems vendor (operating system plus their hardware), they really bet the farm on this.

As it turns out, Mac OS X became what many people expected from the "Linux on the desktop" dream, at least in terms of basic *nix underpinnings and reasonable extensibility. This occurred because Apple drove the campaign bus, so to speak, as a single corporate entity bent on carving out its share of the market pie. They delivered what the market judged to be a good product, largely based on usability principles (that we may or may not personally agree with) and reputation for It Just Works reliability.

Consequently, Apple is now the most valuable company in the world. While I continue to operate all my server infrastructure on Debian, I'm typing this from a three year old MacBook Pro. In my view, consistency, stability, support, and marketing to tell the world about all of it have won the day for Apple. I have yet to see a single Linux vendor competently fulfill those requirements when it comes to mass market desktop sales. Perhaps I never will. In the end, that's actually okay with me, since I will simply continue to use the tool that works best and is best accepted in business environments for different roles. For several years running, that's mostly meant Debian on servers and Mac OS X on desktops, and things Just Work.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[aglider]

Look also here: http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser-eu-monthly-201108-201208

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[Aryden]

Speaking for one of the largest corporations in the world, with a massive IT department and several of our own datacenters... we sadly run everything on windows....

And FYI, I have the freedom on windows to run whatever browser I damn well please. I haven't loaded up exploder on any of the desktops in my house in about a decade. No one bitches that OSX comes with safari preloaded.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[beelsebob]

And there is no mass shift to Mac - it's stable at around 5-6% market share of browser users

Actually, it's risen steadily from 5% to 7% over the past few years. It may sound like a slow rise, but when you consider that only 20% of the PC market is home machines, and the rest is enterprise. Then you consider that paired with apple having near 0 penetration into the enterprise market, and you get to the conclusion that apple's share of the home market has gone from 25% to 35%... That's walking about money.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[cripkd]

What the FUCK is "desktop" anyway?

I keep hearing people like you saying linux isn't prepared for the desktop and here I am using it for years.
* I do web development at work and I have everyhting I need on Ubuntu. I've used it on desktop and laptops without issues.
* My wife and my kids use it at home (my kids are 6 and don't even know what Windows and Linux is, or care, they just use the browser for flash games). My wife uses it for browsing and for document editing (at a level where google docs would suffice).
* I use it at home for web development, browsing, soemetimes even RAW image editing (for which I admit I boot to a 3 years old XP install I only need for Lightroom/Photoshop)

What does "the desktop" mean ???
Audio editing, CAD, 3d modelling (blender?), video editing?

Aren't those too "niche"? Not beeing able to run Avid or Maya to build the next Avatar movie disqualifies it as usable for the desktop?
In MY opinion that's not "the desktop", sorry. That's a niche you need specified hardware and software anyway.

Note:
I do run into issues sometimes, but SO DO I ON Windows XP!

Otherwise I'm perfectly able to:
plug my DSLR and download images off it,
i can play dvd's,
I can create dvd's,
I can capture DV video of a handycam,
I can quickly edit images in GIMP (crop, resize, a bit of contrast, etc, light stuff),
i can write documents, I have a choice of great music players/managers and had them when windows had ... Winamp 3.x or something,
I can connect to ftp servers
I can use .torrent links/sites
I can write code, debug code, install and use a web server

and most of all I can do ALL these AND OTHERS from the first second I installed Ubuntu. Try all of the above right after installing Windows XP or 7 .

What the fuck is wrong with linux on the desktop?

I can't play games, but then again, I never was a gamer. Is that reason to dismiss it? Are gamers like 80% of the desktop market? If yes, then we're screwed!

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[sgbett]

QFT. If the extremists could stop treating OS choice as some kind of religion they might find that your post pretty much sums up the optimum setup for your typical *nix guy.

Of course there are plenty of trees you can use to justify this not being the wood you are looking for, confirmation bias (which I realise I am also guilty of by singling out the parent as being all that is right with the world!) is strong, no more so then in the nerd, whose superior intellect quite easily rules out the subpar opinions of others!

I think those that are locked into windows face the toughest challenge, the initial switch is hard. Redhat 8 was my baptism of fire. What *is* up with this 'X' thing why does it look so farked, why can't I hear anything, why are my graphics so shit, why doeas my machin keep locking up? wtf I can't access the network etc etc happy days :D

For anyone that can (ie isn't *truly* dependant on windows as opposed to just not wanting to learn something new) take the plunge into the *nix based world though, there awaits freedom choice and power.

So for me, really OSX is "linux on the desktop". It's just another distro, I tried several and when I hit osx it was game over, thanks everyone else for playing.

OSX's hackery to the standard base is no more or less weird than your other monolithic distros' changes. Their package manager is shit hot. There are no driver issues, the gui is slick etc etc I know its not free as in beer, or free as in speech. Those things are way down my list, I just need to get shit done. If freedom or freeness is important to you, then OSX is not for you.

Apple attracts its fair share of haters in absolute terms thats inevitable because of its penetration in the market. It would surely be interesting (if it were possible to measure such a thing?) to know what the relative satisfaction of each OS userbase was in percentage terms.

I know us OSX users are stupid and not real developers, dbadmins, sysadmins etc. It's odd though I never feel the need to deride people that stick with Linux. My advice (if you can call it that) comes from a genuine delight in having found what I think is a great setup, and I want to share that with people. If they aren't interested then that's their choice (and if they haven't even tried it, then its hard not to feel a little bit of pity, however patronising that might sound).

The name calling really undermines the credibility of any argument against OSX being the best *nix on the desktop out there. With linux (gentoo for me, but please choose whichever you like best) on the server boxen, It really feels like the best of both worlds, i've never been happier.

I don't get why all the OS rage from windows/linux desktop users? it's almost like something might really be amiss ;)

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[mwvdlee]

What the FUCK is "desktop" anyway?

It's basically browser, email, mediaplayer, office suite and that one, age-old, weird, custom Windows-only application that nobody besides you even knows exits and you absolutely cannot do without.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[aglider]

Can you get rid of Interweb Exploder?
When you buy your car, you choose what you want: color, type of engine, type of gears and tyres and so on.
You cannot choose how many tyres or whether have the steering wheel or not.
Why cannot I do the same with my PC? With my (it's mine because I pay for it) OS?
IE is like the steering wheel? Or is it more like the body color?

And, finally, I'm really sad for your company. Sincerely.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[Anonymous Coward]

What the fuck is wrong with linux on the desktop?

Calm the fuck down, okay dude? You're going to stroke the fuck out if you keep going like this.

People who say things about Linux on the desktop refer to the continued supremacy of Microsoft's wretched "Operating Systems" installed on computers used in the home by the majority of PC owners/users in the world, or at least in the US, where Microsoft has a virtual monopoly. When I type that MS has a monopoly, what I mean is there is NO OTHER SOFTWARE COMPANY MAKING SOFTWARE THAT DOES WHAT THEIRS DOES FOR USE ON IBM-PC/COMPATIBLE/CLONE COMPUTERS. Linux doesn't count because of the GNU and Copyleft. It's not FOR SALE. Remember DR-DOS? Remember OS/2? Those were their competitors, along with a few less note-worthy others.

UNIX wasn't really ever a competitor because the target demographic is completely different, at the inceptions of M$ Win/DOS UNIX wouldn't run on such low-end machines as it was made for, and as time marched by, and home computers got more powerful, the hegemony of the Wintel monopoly ensured that software targeting home computer users was principally for them. Games, desktop publishing, etc., that once came out for the Apple, (Apple II, IIc, IIe, and later the Mac,) then came out for the PC, and in the early days other platforms, such as the Atari and Commodore machines. As they died off, consoles took over that subsegment, and as the popularity of Windows increased with the release of 95, and later 98, it came to pass that software, specifically games came out for the PC first, then Apple as an afterthought.

Apple isn't really in competition with Microsoft in the purest sense of the word because Microsoft, speaking generally and historically, (disregarding for the moment the "Surface" and mice and keyboards,) hasn't made hardware, and because Apple, (disregarding the things they've had to make for themselves because no one else wanted to,) doesn't make software, just hardware.

"But what about OS-X?!? Is that not software?" you ask? Glad you asked. Yes, it's software, and yes, you can even walk into a store and buy a copy of it off the shelf. But until you can install it on a PC-type machine, they're NOT in direct competition with Microsoft, despite MS holding them up in court as "proof" that they don't in fact have a monopoly. That's utter bullshit, of course, because as I said, NO OTHER SOFTWARE COMPANY OR VENDOR is producing software you can pay for, install on your home computer, and use it in the place of, and instead of Microsoft's Windows, to run programs specifically written FOR use on computers running Microsoft Windows.

Know this: it's not because people don't want to use alternatives to Microsoft's wretched software. It's not because no one has ever wanted to make such a product as one that would replace M$ Windows. Linux (and the various MS Windows copying Desktop Environments, such as FVWM and KDE, etc.) is just one example of software that tries to do just that. BUT, BUT, *** BUT *** it's not made FOR SALE. The whole reason Linux was possible, the way it evolved, was that the GNU tools and GPL under which Linux is released make (reasonably) sure that no one will ever profit from the code written by others financially. People donated their time, their knowledge, their skills, happily to make something they could all use, (Linux,) but would NEVER EVER have done so for a private company to steal their work, make fat slugs who never worked a day in their lives but instead subsisted parasitically off the work of others, rich, or if they already were, RICHER, by releasing what they labored over, and then reaping the benefits for FREE.

Microsoft's software reign over the PC universe is unlikely ever to be broken because too many people don't want to have to be computer scientists or experts to get their computers to "just work". Microsoft's software, I will admit, does this now, and does it well enough that people, even now that Linux (and many other similar t

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[tuppe666]

I don't get why all the OS rage from windows/linux desktop users? it's almost like something might really be amiss ;)

I'm really not full of rage when I tell you a company that is moving its overpriced barely upgradable closed computers to overpriced closed electronics. With software tied to hardware is a *NIX guys dream [I think I felt the marketing wave make me feel ill at that point].

Personally I'm a little tired of large posts containing nothing but adversing slogans ;) The bottom line is though Apple is a vile company that needs to boycotted. :(

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[Anonymous Coward]

As soon as you said you ran Gentoo on your servers I knew they/you weren't serious business. But thanks for playing. Comment again when you have more than a few dozen servers.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[Anonymous Coward]

Try to get rid of safari on mac os. Its damn near impossible.
And once apple implements their iTunes/iMonoploy trusted computing lock down bs on OSX (probably next year), it won't be a viable platform for me either.

I like apple's products. They make rock solid hardware, but the iTunes lock-in with iOS apps is unsettling and that they're in the process of doing this to their desktop os as well. MS will do the same thing with windows 8. Surface will only run Win8 and iOS will be the precedent that makes it ok.
And we're overwhelmingly saying its ok by buying their stuff.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[Anonymous Coward]

If you don't think there are a lot of Microsoft servers out there, you need to get out of the basement more...

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[pointyhat]

I think you are living on another planet. Some corrections:

They don't provider any infrastructure. Neither does UNIX/Linux. Most of the infrastructure is dedicated hardware still. People like F5, Juniper, Cisco, Alcatel, Lucent etc. Most of this stuff runs on custom platforms and kernels and occasionally something esoteric like Erlang. Hardly any of it sits on *NIX platforms, bar mail relays.

As for servers running UNIX/Linux - yes there are lots. I mean look at Google, Facebook and most of the hosting companies out there. However you miss one important point: none of these are supporting critical business functions. Even if you look a the mainframe and big iron side of things (ex Sun/Unisys territory), it's all moving to Windows as the value proposition is better. The only thing that remains is mass market web hosting, cloud providers and the odd obscure installation of specialist systems (supercomputers, trading platforms, big finance, people stuck with Oracle).

As for the comment about most offices using a browser to access a centralised application: that is utter crap. Most people are still using Office and mailing documents to each other cluelessly - and that's not a problem because it works for them. The next upscaling option for them is to use a Windows fileserver. The option after that is Sharepoint. As for dedicated applications, it's all desktop still. The uptake of "HTML5 wah wah" is purely a consumer market and very small business thing. From medium to large enterprises and a lot of industry sectors, it's actually pretty much illegal to throw your stuff in the cloud or push it out. Internal web applications (which I will say that I architect for a living) are literally at the cutting edge in business - there is virtually no market penetration and businesses still don't trust them.

Internet Explorer: it's a component. It's a flipping COM server that sits in MSHTML.dll. It's called code reuse. It's a good thing. It's like having a shared library on UNIX. As a counterpoint "Ubuntu default install ships with XPI .so - get the EU to ban it". It's also hardly embedded into the OS if you've ever looked. You can unregister it and remove IE completely and it functions fine still (bar some MMC plugins).

You don't have to buy Windows. We buy stuff without windows because we've got a volume license so it makes no sense. We get stuff without Windows from HP, Dell, DNUK. That is bollocks. Consumers don't care - they want something that they can turn on and get warez and pr0n on. It's only a minority that give a crap.

Now I'm a fan of UNIX based operating systems. I like the design of them, I have used them for 25 years, I have a Sun Ultra 30 sitting next to me with OpenBSD on it which does some of my specialist donkey work and runs crap I write 15-20 years ago so I don't have to port it, but the Lenovo T61 with Windows 7 that sits next to it does the stuff that pays the bills and talks to the things that other people talk to.

Getting shit done is orders of magnitude more important than politics and being the finest zealot.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[pointyhat]

You don't get to choose what operating system your ECU uses do you?

IE is a blob of software. Its use is inconsequential.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[kiriath]

Uh, what the heck is a 'shiny-shitty' ?

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[aglider]

If you choose to stay in a jail don't complain for lack of freedom!

Windows (XP) is probably the best UI ever seen on PCs. But that's all. Everything else just sucks.
Maybe Linux distributions are not that rock solid, but they are indeed very effective even on old hardware.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[aglider]

I am not 100% sure, but I would bet that all that "dedicated" hardware is just embedded Linux/BSD/QNX/whateverNix.
For sure is not embedded Windows nor dedicated silicon.
Please, prove that

it's all moving to Windows as the value proposition is better

I don't believe that.
Security holes ii OSes are the worst beast. Windows holes get fixed in a matter of weeks (to be optimistic). The other OSes get fixes within days.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[JasterBobaMereel]

The main "Desktop" market is Business users, i.e. System Admin's and CIO's they want a system that "just works" and they know already

They hate with a passion every new version of Windows as it causes them hours of work in testing and deployment, but at least they can run in parallel

Anything other (Mac or Linux or anything else) is simply ignored as not an option unless they are forced to use it

The only reason Apple devices are used in these environments is because Designers love them and so the the desktops are used, and now many of the execs have iPhones and iPads which *must* work ...

Linux/BSD boxes are used in these environments where they are easier to install and maintain and they do not affect the users ...

If you are talking Home users then history would say that selling a Linux PC is dead because of the complaints from users who can't run Windows programs ... when it is a device that is not a PC then they don't expect this and it is not an issue ...(e.g. android phones, iPad etc ...)

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[sgbett]

It sure sounds like rage! "Vile", "boycotted" and "making you feel ill", such dramatic language for one so allegedly unruffled. You might start by having the composure to produce a legible post!

They are successful, you hate that, I get it.

They are only overpriced if you don't value the product. To me they are quite reasonably priced, but then I am considering their value to me in day to day use, their longevity (i can burn through cheap laptops in 12 months) not to mention the initial cost is also offset by there resale value.

Your use of the word "closed" as some irrefutably negative aspect suggests you are more bothered about open source as a religion, than the practical use of a computing device. OSS and proprietery software both exist both have their relative merits and both have a place in the computing ecosystem. I am no stranger to open source. I support the concept of opensource, but I don't feel that doing so mutually excludes my use and/or acceptance of propritery software as a concept. I'm going to judge software by my own measure whether its closed or open doesn't have much of fundamental effect on my decision thesedays. I've been to FOSS and back, the pent up rage of being forced to use windows for a decade fuelled my view that linux was the holy grail, but as my rage softened and I started to see clearly again I started to see that linux too has its downsides. The thing is the shiny has worn off of MacOS now for me too. So I feel (note: opinion) I'm left with a fairly objective view of what works best for me, and as I said earlier the choice for me was between windows or *nix. I chose *nix, my distro of choice (because it seemed to be the one that had its shit together most) was OSX. I'm sure i will be derided for not being a 'true' linux fanboi, and mocked for being an apple fonboi, but really that comes so far down my list of "reasons why I do stuff" that I'm not even sure if it might have fallen off the bottom. Oh well, it won't be missed.

If there is some real solid reason that you want to be able to go digging around in the GUI subsystem or need source code access some other proprietery aspect of OSX then I can see your point about how 'closed' is a bad thing (for you) and you should pick something else.

I am aware of the arguments about the relative technical merits of closed vs open source, security, maintainability and even cost. They are arguments though, neither has been conclusively proven as better, so why not let the free market decide.

In closing why not just choose what suits you best and feel comfortable. If somebody comes along and makes a compelling argument why I need to shift from OSX back to (say) windows 8, my choices are to dismiss them out of hand or to listen to what they have to say, see if what they are saying makes sense in my particular use case, and if it does go ahead and try it out. I'm not saying you haven't tried OSX (I mean really tried it, like give it a year) you may have, but your post seemed to imply that there was no way in hell you would move to osx because you have something against the company. So long as thats the case then by all means boycott away, but you might want to check out that world view of yours, see whether its really serving your best interests.

(pre-emptive "apology for being selfish western world white trash". I am. I'm over it. What am I gonna do rage at the world for being born into the relative wealth of working class Britain? Fish gotta swim. Birds gotta eat. We are only human, trying to pretend we aren't is noble but ultimately doomed to failure.)

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[gsgriffin]

The statement is still true. No mass shift. At the current rate, they will get to 50 percent market share in 100 years.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[somersault]

What do you mean about the "package manager" being "shit hot"? I tried using an MBP as my web development machine for a while, but ended up switching to Ubuntu because it was much easier to get an up to date Apache/Perl environment set up using Aptitude. Not to mention that all the media players available on OSX back then were awful. I use Spotify now though so that problem has taken care of itself.. but I'm quite happily using Windows 7 at work right now, with Mint in a VM when I need it.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[toriver]

Market share is not profits: You will realize this when you start looking at Ferrari versus Toyota.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[crazyjj]

The law should be equal to everyone.

Yeah, because the EU doesn't single out MS at all. I'm sure they also make Apple offer a browser other than Safari in OSX and iOS too.

Oh wait...

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[toriver]

Maybe you can explain how you come to the conclusion that OS X is closed (on the computers). Then again, that is me expecting too much since you have no knowledge of the subject, and are just ranting.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[Zappy]

You obviously need other reasons than usability to explain market share on the desktop.

The usability of the Linux desktop surpassed Windows well over a decade ago, but as you correctly point out adoption rates are close to zero. Even Apple which has arguably better usability than Windows have a very small share of the desktop.

Clearly usability has *nothing* to do with market share.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[Anonymous Coward]

Ha ha ha ha, Fuck You, pathetic little zealot. Can you buy a GM car with a Honda motor? NO! You stupid fucking prick. I LOVE Windows! I'm smarter and better educated than you with far more experience in life. Not to mention the bedroom. I've been living abroad for about 5 years now. Every program I want to run works perfectly in Windows. No spyware/virus shit, no reboots, no crashes, everything works great from Photoshop to Games. Linux? It's great on a server or embedded system that just has to sit there and do boring shit, but for my REAL computing life? Windows, douche bag! Fuck you and you're "FREEDOM". You're too small minded to understand the chunky, brown liquid shit you gobble down is really SHIT to everyone else.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[Anonymous Coward]

So I moved most of my boxes to linux some time ago. I don't like Apple. One day I got a 3G/4G dongle for internet access, and (thanks sierra/novatel) one 3G worked. I spend long time trying to figure 4G, and couldn't.... So I went back to windows, where I got to run hulu and netflix with minimal effort over 4G. Yes, there's that.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[sgbett]

Yes I wasn't clear. I was alluding to the app store being quite a good central repository of software. Consumer software though.

If you need apache/perl you'll be messing with the internals, in which case you are going to probably going to have to get used to apple's particular flavour of *nix. For me it was no more or less difficult than figuring out the implementation details of various other distros (eg launchd vs sysvinit)

I'd recommend homebrew (some prefer macports) - analagous to portage, or yum. It's pretty straightforward.

OSX isn't a magic bullet for everything i still find myself tinkering under the hood with 'developer' stuff, same as I would on a linux box.

The rest of the stuff, day to day, all tends to work on the whole with little to no input from me. This frees up my time to get on with real work, where before I was distracted by tweaking and fixing the little glitches that every linux system seemed to have. Maybe it was me though, I dunno. Now though the choice is no longer there! Some say thats a bad thing. *shrugs*. works for me.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[hairyfish]

What the fuck is wrong with linux on the desktop?

You're only thinking like a home user. When you have one off requirements you can have one off solutions. Since MS is the only vendor with a true corporate solution (integrated AD, DNS, DHCP, Group Policy/Mobile Device Management, Messaging/Collaboration, DB, Web/Intranet, Office Apps etc), then MS will always rule this space. And since people use this at work, it's only natural they want the devil they know at home.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[hairyfeet]

Why don't we just call it what it REALLY is, which is a cash grab for the debt drowning EU? Look at the numbers folks, IE is a fricking corpse. Other than business, which sticks with an older version for some crappy Intranet apps IE has been going down down down quarter after quarter, and even the dumbest of the dumbasses know how to type the word Google into IE and get Firefox or Chrome and the numbers? It shows that. Hell even my little old lady customers come in and I find Firefox or Chrome on their desktops every. single. time, even the old folks don't use IE anymore.

Now what is the "horrible crime" that MSFT did? they forgot to add the updated browser choice screen when they rolled out SP1...Oh wow, somebody forgot to add something to a build, its a conspiracy! Did the EU bother to ASK them about this? Did they bother to even give them a CHANCE to fix it? Nope its "Give us teh monies! Nom nom nom!".

I'm sorry but bullshit is bullshit, and I don't give a fuck if it was Apple, Google, or MSFT, hitting someone with some insane fine for having a fuckup without even bothering to contact them and give them a chance to fix said fuckup is just wrong and makes this seem like what it is...a cash grab. Hell even the FSF will tell someone they have fucked up and give them a chance to be in compliance before they start suing, but the commission can't even pick up a phone and say 'Hey did you forget something?". What bullshit.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[somersault]

I tried Macports at the time, but basically once I started using CPAN it just got messy. With Debian based distros you can usually get what you need as apt packages rather than even messing around with CPAN, and then everything keeps itself updated and satisfying dependencies etc, so it makes things a breeze to set up.

It wasn't you, but it's worth trying Linux every few years just to see how things have improved. I used to have the same tweaking issues on Linux up until around the 2011 versions of Ubuntu. Then likewise I've not really had any issues with Mint (which I switched to when Ubuntu started pushing Unity, which wasn't even properly "tweakable" when it first came out, and maybe still isn't).

Right now I'm pretty happy with Windows 7 for things "just working" and since I've got back into PC gaming. Hopefully the whole Steam for Linux thing will start to get Linux recognised as a viable gaming platform. I know a lot of geeks are quite happy that it isn't used for gaming, but I like having choices. If Windows 8 and other future versions try to force tablet style interfaces then I won't be wanting to use them. I love tablet interfaces on tablets, but not on my desktop.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[cripkd]

The I guess what I'm saying is that Linux IS ready for the small (and maybe medium) busnisess, especially those in or related to IT&C (which right now is a considerable portion of the economy, we're not in the 80's.)
I'm also saying that it COULD be a solution for home users, if those users are able to make an informed and educated decision about their OS.
I'm not in the US and I've never bought a brand PC or a PC with an installed OS. I have always installed my own OS's. So if more people coould do that they wouldn't be in the position to discover that soem .exe file doesn't run on their PC's.

If people would be more literrate regarding PC's they woudl discover linux is ready for the desktop. The web and the browser has a lot to do with this. I'm speculating that people over 40 would successfully use it, since they don't need games or other fancy software, the browser would be enough. Even developers would need to take that into account and provide linux versions (like Skype or others do).

I guess my conclusion is that linux IS ready and all the factors that make it seem not to be are external.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[cripkd]

Well, that sounds like a goal that can never be accomplished by any OS that is not win32 compatible and that also makes Mac OS X not ready for the desktop, wouldn't you agree?

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[mcgrew]

I've tried it on and off for desktop use since 1997 and TBH, it will never get there.

What distro? There is no "Linux", there are a lot of different ones. Red hat makes an excellent server OS but a shitty desktop OS. Mandriva and kubuntu and likely others are head and shoulders above Windows in every measure except "shiny". Windows has no features those distros lack, and they have many features Windows lacks. The things Windows does, those distros do better. Both distros are far easier to use and require far less maintenance, and what little maintenance is required is a "one click and done" affair rather than the PITA patch Tuesday is.

But I agree, Linux has no chance, simply because few have even heard of it, and those who have heard of it have as much of a chance of hearing it from someone who tried Red Hat as a desktop or other problem such as not being able to transition from MS's proprietary stuff like C: and \ to the standard Unix way that every other PC OS uses.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[cripkd]

I only aquired mild sysadmin skills while using linux at home and at work for the last 7 years or so and I admit I don't know even 10% of that in the Windows environment and I'm tempted to say that linux can either cover that OR we're already discussing server environments (I'm pretty sure DHCP and Group Policy are not about the desktop issue) but I'll wait for a more knowledgable guy to answer that if anyone wants.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[Ash-Fox]

Windows (XP) is probably the best UI ever seen on PCs

You can keep your Fischerprice interface.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[Ash-Fox]

Linux doesn't have a chance. I've tried it on and off for desktop use since 1997 and TBH, it will never get there.

I like how you're unable to elaborate on this at all.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[BasilBrush]

We all know what desktop is, so let's not waste time defining it.

The GP didn't say Linux could not be used on the desktop. Indeed some people do use it as a desktop. Something less than 1%. He pointed out that Linux has been tried for years in the court of public opinion, and it's failed to gain any kind of widespread favour. And there's no sign it ever will. OS X has taken it's place as the alternative desktop for people that want to get away from Windows.

The fact that you are one of those few that do use Linux for the desktop makes no difference to his point.

If we're doing anecdotes, mine is similar to the OP, in that I wanted to get off Windows, and tried Linux many times over the years, but always found it lacking. Then tried OSX and it was so much better. I haven't looked back since.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[Anonymous Coward]

You can keep your Fischerprice interface. by Ash-Fox (726320) on Friday September 28, @10:36AM (#41488057) Homepage

You can keep "failing", troll (lol) -> http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3149609&cid=41488325 and it's "Fisher-Price", moron (you fail @ spelling too, lmao!). No small wonder you blow it at computing: You haven't even reached the stage of spelling correctly, lol!

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[micheas]

Microsoft had been warned and sworn under oath that the choice screen was there when it was not.

To bring you up to speed.

1. Microsoft lost a law suit and was ordered to give status reports about their compliance. Period. Full Stop.
2. Microsoft said sure no problem, and was allowed to just send in a signed declaration of if they were complying with the order or if there were technical, logistical problems that prevented them from compying with the order.
3. Microsoft then had difficulty complying with the order and the court basically said, let us know when you are complying, no big deal.
4. Micorosoft started to comply with the order.
5. The court than said, If you want to just send in a sworn declaration of your compliance with the order we'll take your word.
6. Microsoft noticed that they were not being checked up on.
7. Microsoft then stopped complying with the order.
8. Microsoft then submitted statements signed under penalty of perjury to the court that they were complying with the order.
9. This was brought to Microsofts attention.
10. Microsoft continued to not comply with the order and submit statements signed under penalty of perjury that they were complying with the order.
11. The S*t hit the fan
12. Hairyfeet posts that punishing Microsoft for this behavior is bullshit as they had not been warned that lying under penalty of perjury would have consequences.

Personally I think Microsoft deserves to have there ass handed to them for this one. Lying under penalty of perjury about complying with a reduced settlement is a pretty stupid gamble, but if Microsoft gets away with this, the number of corporations that lie about having complied with court orders will go through the roof, and court orders will become semi-meaningless.

Put it another way.If you settle with FSF for copyright violations, and as part of the settlement is that you have a software compliance officer, and the software compliance officer sends a letter every quarter saying that you are proud to state that all of your software that you distribute is in compliance with the GPL where appropriate and that you are in compliance with the GPL and settlement agreement. And then six months later, you remove all the source code from your website, and the comliance officer continues to send out letters saying that you are still complying with the settlement (remember this person's sole job is to determine if the settlement agreement is being followed or not, and is getting paid hundereds of thousands a year to do this one task.) Do you honestly think that the FSF would then ask for anything less than RIAA level damages? This is insane behavior.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[Anonymous Coward]

We like how you FAIL, Ash-Fox (3 times in a row too, lol) -> http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3149609&cid=41488325

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[e70838]

Wine works perfectly on my PC (photoshop, ...). I have also stone age crappy windows applications that are isolated in a virtual machine in order to keep my computer clean.
Browser, email, media player, libre office suite are identical or superior on Linux.
I think that Linux is not desktop ready, but it seems I do not have the same understanding of "desktop" as you.
2 weeks ago, I booted a ubuntu live CD and my nvidia video card was not correctly handled, it was unusable.
When I do a copy/paste, I have to cope with a mixture of windows and X conventions (Ctrl+CXV or mouse middle clicks).
There is no uniformity in application look and feel.
Gnome has put a layer that hides very well how things works. I have never found why hibernation was not working on my PC.
For me, individual applications are better on Linux than Windows, but the whole desktop experience is still not there.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[mcgrew]

When they say "it's not ready for the desktop" they mean that Linux has a tiny userbase compared to Apple and Windows. Many MS users listen to and repeat the FUD (I'm sure you've seen it, "you have to use the command line, there aren't any apps, it's hard to use" bullshit).

The fact is, as you say, given the right distro Linux is far more capable and useable than Windows in every way. I'm running kubuntu on one machine and W7 on another, the kubuntu machine will do everything the W7 machine will, but kubuntu has quite a few really handy features that W7 woefully lacks.

Distros meant for the desktop are for the most part far superior to Windows. The reason Linux hasn't taken over is Windows comes pre-installed on every new computer and few non-nerds have ever heard of Linux.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[tehcyder]

other problem such as not being able to transition from MS's proprietary stuff like C: and \ to the standard Unix way

Most home users of Windows probably never get as far as seeing C: or \ on their machines anyway so that shouldn't be a problem.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[tehcyder]

Consequently, Apple is now the most valuable company in the world

Only because of the iPod, iPhone and iPad, none of which run on a *nix-like OS or share the *nix philosophy in any way whatsoever.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[tehcyder]

If freedom or freeness is not important to you, then you are stupid and not a real developer, etc.

You can't argue with facts like that.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[green1]

What affects market share is what is pre-installed. Although modern linux distros work better than windows in almost every way, the vast majority of people will never have any OS on their machine that didn't come with it. As long as Microsoft has all the big OEMs tied in to effectively windows only contracts, Windows will be what everyone uses. It's big time anti-competitive abuse of a monopoly, but the government doesn't really care, so we're stuck with it.
This is also the reason for the EU enforcing the browser selection. They know that most people will use whatever browser is shipped with the computer, so they want MS to level the playing field by forcing people to make a conscious choice of which browser instead of defaulting to IE. If only the verdict extended to the whole OS.

I think it's time that the big manufacturers allow you to buy a machine without an OS, and/or one with linux pre-installed. but until that happens, Windows will own the desktop (which makes it pretty obvious why MS is doing everything they can to prevent it)

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[Seeteufel]

What is missing is more of the "just works" feature. For me Linux on the Desktop is just fine but I can't get Flash to work properly for me. That is a killer feature for me. Without Flash no homebanking with my bank. In other words, Linux on the Desktop would be fine with a 30 Mio $ investment for testing and paper cuts.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[green1]

Something that millions of people want because they think it's cool and looks great, even though it lags behind every other system in terms of usability, functionality and cost.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[tlhIngan]

And there is no mass shift to Mac - it's stable at around 5-6% market share of browser users

Actually, it's risen steadily from 5% to 7% over the past few years. It may sound like a slow rise, but when you consider that only 20% of the PC market is home machines, and the rest is enterprise. Then you consider that paired with apple having near 0 penetration into the enterprise market, and you get to the conclusion that apple's share of the home market has gone from 25% to 35%... That's walking about money.

Apple also likes it that way because they're skimming the cream off the PC market. There's no doubt you can run out and buy a PC that's cheaper* than a Mac. Apple refuses to play the "race to the bottom" game as everyone else has done, which is why most Macs cost $1000 and over.

Or why there's a scramble to build ultrabooks and tablets - because these PCs command higher prices and thus more profit than the $500 machines. Basically the PC manufacturers are also getting wise to the fact that the race to the bottom doesn't benefit them - and they'd probably soon exit the field completely to give the white-box guys a niche.

Of course, it also means Apple has to justify the extra costs - which is why they build their cases out of "exotic" materials like metals and glass to also separate themselves from a sea of plastic.

(*) - You can buy a $500 PC. You can't buy a $500 Mac. I'm not talking about equivalent parts, who has better value for money, quality, etc. I'm just saying any consumer can walk into a store with $500 and walk out with a PC. Pure price.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[green1]

The ruling is specifically about the convicted monopolist. Once Apple reach approx 90% market share on the desktop we can revisit their anti-competitive behaviour, but at their current market share the amount of effect they have on the overall browser usage in the EU is pretty negligible.
 

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[Seeteufel]

The horrible crime. Well, very simple. Microsoft made a contractual deal, not a ruling as the article says, a self-selected deal where they agreed on punitive penalties if they fail to comply with their obligations. And that is exactly what they did. They cannot blame anyone else. They didn't fulfill their obligations and now suffer the consequences. The Commission reacts when competitors complain or when the time comes to review the agreement.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[Anonymous Coward]

They actually run an extremely stripped down version of OS X.

And they follow the *nix philosophy of "do one thing and do it well" that so many other mp3 player manufacturers, phone manufacturers, and tablet manufacturers did not. The fact that it isn't presented as a shell that you have to type arcane and ancient command names into, even if you can build them up to do cool things, is probably an extremely good thing because it would probably kill battery life, require a more hefty processor, and completely not align with the HCI their hardware enforces. It is a good thing they didn't do that.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[mcgrew]

Uh, what the heck is a 'shiny-shitty' ?

A turd covered in glitter. Example: Microsoft Windows.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[cavreader]

Part of the problem with Linux on the desktop is that the proponents always list several different flavors of it when touting it's potential or usefulness. (Red Hat, Mandriva, ubunto, kubuntu, etc....). Each with it's own little quirks that have a nasty tendency to fragment any applications targeted at them. If all you want to do is browse the Internet Linux is OK but trying to target any client side development at a Linux desktop is a pain in the ass unless you can control (ie. lockdown) the system eco-system.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[Anonymous Coward]

"You will realize this when you start looking at Ferrari versus Toyota."

Ferrari makes more money selling hats and key-chains to morons than with cars.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[mcgrew]

People really need to understand exactly how important Microsoft is to the world if you like that concept or not.

Microsoft isn't important in the least. They don't develop anything that doesn't have an alternative. You can quite easily drop Ubuntu or kubunto on any Windows machine and it will just work, and what's more, be easier to use and have more features. The GNU office suites may not be as nice, but they do the job.

If Microsoft disappeared tomorrow, by next week nobody would miss them.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[kiriath]

Thanks for clearing that up for me =D

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[Tough Love]

People really need to understand exactly how important Microsoft is to the world.

I would just like to point out that the gap between Microsoft's and Google's market cap has shrunk to roughly 2% as of today.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[kiriath]

You started off sounding smart, then it dwindled near the end...

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[doesnothingwell]

Oh wow, somebody forgot to add something ...

Yeah, corporations forget safety and regulatory rules all the time, just an honest mistake. They accidentally gave the worldwide regulations monkey the day off. Please adjust your tinfoil, its burrowing into your brain.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[cripkd]

What distro are you on?
There have been 2 periods some 2 years ago on ubuntu where flash kept crashing but aside those I never had any issues with flash. Except for the youtube "blue people" issue :)
I know, for one who sais he has no flash issues I can list quite a few, but you have to admit flash is fading away. And come on, flash homebanking? I give it 6 months. There's 70-80% chances that they are working on a replacement as we speak.
I'm in web development and we did a lot of flash replacement sites in the past couple of years.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[Eponymous Coward]

Mandriva and kubuntu and likely others are head and shoulders above Windows in every measure except "shiny". Windows has no features those distros lack, and they have many features Windows lacks.

How many people do you think choose an operating system based on features? The operating system is boring infrastructure and all that matters is that it can support doing the things you want to do on your machine with little hassle. If they can afford it, many will choose a Mac because it can legally run more software than any other platform. Otherwise, they will choose the platform that best matches their needs (which is often an iPad device these days).

Mandriva may be the slickest OS ever, but if you have to run XCode or Visual Studio all day, it's useless.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[tsa]

Yes they do. The fact that the user doesn't notice the fact that it's a Unix system doesn't mean it isn't.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[green1]

That's ok... I was replying to a post that sounded like a fanboi right from the start, so I knew what I was getting in to. "if you don't agree with our lord and saviour steve jobs then you must be wrong!"

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[pointyhat]

WIN - nice work :)

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[pointyhat]

Here we go. I've been through Yggdrasil, Slackware, Redhat, SuSE, CentOS, Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu from 1997 to this year on x86, Sparc, Sun Ultra and PPC machines. They've all sucked.

The best attempt at a desktop so far is Ubuntu 12.04 and CentOS6/RHEL6. Both of them offer the thing that is missing: completeness. Unfortunately, they still suffer from random hardware issues, inability to hibernate/resume/sleep, terrible power consumption, poor battery life (my 9+4 cell Lenovo T61 which lasts 11 hours in windows 7 versus 5.4 hours on Ubuntu 12.04).

Launchpad is a tribute to how shitty it is on the desktop. Literally thousands of unfixed bugs which poke almost every user in the eye on a daily basis. It's hell.

Bear in mind I come from a strong UNIX background (Really big Sun/Solaris installations - E10k,E15k stuff) so it's not foreign to me. It's just without polish, is buggy and utterly frustrating to use.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[pointyhat]

Elaboration here: http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3149609&cid=41492873

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[pointyhat]

Market cap means precisely fuck all. I worked for a company with the highest market cap on the FTSE100 for 2 weeks. They don't exist any more.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[Tough Love]

Market cap is a precise measure of how much the investing world values a company. Of course, investors are often wrong. Take Microsoft for example. With Steve Ballmer firmly entrenched and the board entirely zombified, Microsoft will just continue to make worse use of its wealth than its competitors. Microsoft therefore deserves an even lower valuation than it has today.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[hairyfeet]

Riiight, Linux user let me guess? only ones I can think of that with a straight face would compare a fricking browser ballot box to safety equipment software that could KILL SOMEBODY if it fucked up. yeah because Pepe is gonna fucking die if he doesn't have somebody show him how to get Chrome, uh huh.

And to all those that said "Well herpa derpa they'd said they'd comply so they gotta" I have THIS to say...how many languages are there in the EU, do you even KNOW? How many versions, including the N versions MSFT was ordered to provide that go straight to the dump because the OEMs and resellers don't want them?

You have more than a half a dozen versions in a half a dozen languages, all have to be packed up and shipped to coincide with the worldwide release of SP1...is it REALLY so hard to see how someone might have fucked up? Now if they pointed out they fucked up and MSFT said "Too bad, don't care" THEN you'd have a leg to stand on, but instead they went straight for the cash grab AGAIN, after grabbing one of the biggest fines (free monies! Nom nom nom!) in history. did they give a cent of this to the supposed victims? hell did they even give $50 to Opera? Nope, kept the money, nom nom nom!

That's why its time to call a spade a spade and a cash grab a cash grab. Its a damned shame someone with balls wasn't running that company, I'd put out that if the EU commission thinks their people are so damned stupid they can't even type the word Google into a browser without someone holding their hands then maybe they shouldn't have computers and then ask if they'd like us to yank the product because we'll be happy to do so. See how they like scrambling for systems because they can't run their software or having to stick with old versions.

You know I think republicans are usually full of shit but their talk about "success tax" really fits when it comes to the EU commission, you don't see them going after Bob's tool & die where the fine would be $5K, nope they ONLY go after large companies where they can get several million minimum in "fines" which naturally do NOT go to anyone supposedly hurt by the company, but right into their coffers. Nice racket if you can get it.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[Elldallan]

What court is gonna buy "oops we forgot" from anyone?
The EU Commission sent MSFT to the court over their monopoly abusing practices, the courts told MSFT that you cannot do that it's against the law, here's a fine and you need to do these things to not get anymore fines.
MSFT agreed to abide by those terms so it does not matter if it was intentional or just some random techie screwing up.
What matters is that MSFT agreed(not that it would have mattered if they didn't, the courts ruling is absolute, MSFT can either stop doing business within the EU or abide by the ruling) to abide by the court ruling and then you better implement some routines to make sure a screw up doesn't happen, they failed to comply with the court's ruling so yes the deserve a fine regardless of the reason for their failed compliance.

They had their chance to fix the fuck up after the original ruling, and if you're a multibillion dollar corporation you are supposed to have processes to ensure that these sort of fuck ups don't make it into the finished product, if they do you're liable to get slapped.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[kiriath]

I sincerely wish that people could get over their hangups and just try out something different. The world would be a lot better place.

Thanks for the props to Steve though, may he rest in peace.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[green1]

We did try something different. That's why we run Android. Most people I've talked to who run Android have compared features, functionality. and usability of all available platforms and chose Android. most of the people I've talked to who own an iphone heard that iphones were great and bought one. no comparisons done.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[Seeteufel]

Ubuntu 12.04

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[kiriath]

I see, it is interesting being in the crowd that did comparisons and chose the iPhone... it's all good though, I'm glad you've got what works best for you and that is what I choose, what works best for me. No reason for name calling and etc =D

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[philip.paradis]

As others have pointed out, your reply demonstrates your ignorance. iOS is indeed a Unix operating system:

iOS is derived from OS X, with which it shares the Darwin foundation, and is therefore a Unix operating system. iOS is Apple's mobile version of the OS X operating system used on Apple computers.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[Ash-Fox]

Both of them offer the thing that is missing: completeness.

Vague statement, I like it!

Launchpad is a tribute to how shitty it is on the desktop. Literally thousands of unfixed bugs which poke almost every user in the eye on a daily basis. It's hell.

Which isn't any different from Windows user land, I like your arguments thus far. They amuse me.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[steeviant]

I'm really not full of rage when I tell you a company that is moving its overpriced barely upgradable closed computers to overpriced closed electronics. With software tied to hardware is a *NIX guys dream [I think I felt the marketing wave make me feel ill at that point].

Personally I'm a little tired of large posts containing nothing but adversing slogans ;) The bottom line is though Apple is a vile company that needs to boycotted. :(

I'm fascinated that you care that other people are buying "overpriced" stuff and enjoying it, do you walk around at the supermarket telling everyone how disgusted you are that they didn't buy the cheapest product on the shelf, or is this a special animosity you reserve for consumer electronics purchasers only?

The bottom line is that all companies are vile. They are compelled to behave in the manner of a prototypical psychopath, legally obliged to put the interests of its shareholders above all else. If you think a company is 'trustworthy' or 'not evil', you're wrong. Companies, just like human psychopaths, pretend to have certain morals and values because it is better for them if you believe the hype.

Just because you like what they're doing today, doesn't mean companies are under any obligation to keep doing things you like tomorrow. They could find out that it's unprofitable or that it brings bad publicity to keep doing what they've been doing for you all these years, and could start behaving completely differently... tomorrow, or today at noon. You never know.

No company is your friend, no company will show you any loyalty, and every company will screw you to the wall if there's a dollar in it. With all that in mind, I find it hard to single out any company or it's actions as reprehensible. Only people who are naïve about how companies are run and what the legal obligations of company principals are, could feel animosity toward Microsoft, Apple, Google, Oracle, IBM, etc. They are doing what they are made to do, you might as well get angry at sharks for eating fish.

Besides, it's not as though these companies care what we as individuals want as long as we are still handing our hard-earned cash to them.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[steeviant]

Only because of the iPod, iPhone and iPad, none of which run on a *nix-like OS or share the *nix philosophy in any way whatsoever.

The clckwheel iPod ran an OS from someone called Pixo, I believe.

The iPod nano (since 2010) runs a separate, unnamed non-unix OS developed by Apple.

However, iPad, iPod Touch and iPhone all run iOS which is basically a de-bloated version of OS X, so they do run a Unix based OS. as to whether they "share the *nix philosophy"? I don't think any GUI system could be classed as sharing the philosophy of having small tools that you can chain together to perform complex tasks, which is what I thought the Unix philosophy was.

What "*nix philosophy" were you talking about?

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[steeviant]

Essentially, to be "ready for the desktop" an OS needs to be pre-installed before retail, since the vast majority of people will just use whatever software is on their computer when they get it, oblivious to the fact that alternatives are available. Those people buy a new computer to get an OS upgrade rather than buy the OS retail and pay someone to install it for them, and use whatever software is on the computer already if it gets the job done. They simply don't know (and often don't care to know) better.

To be ready for the desktop, Linux just has to be supplied on the desktop at purchase time. Not everyone has the inclination to worry about operating systems and web browsers.

Re:They have to ban Windows in EU

[cripkd]

This is somewhat of a circular argument, at best. But I'd say it's close to ilogical.

I don't understand why they're doing this

[pointyhat]

I don't understand why they're doing this. There has been a browser choice screen shipped with it and via windows update for ages now. It stinks of profitteering on the part of the EU. You don't hear them suing the crap out of pharmaceutical companies for a monopoly either.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[pahles]

You can ship the screen in the code, but if you never show it to users what good is it then? Microsoft admits they didn't comply, so what's the problem with the EU fining Microsoft?

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[Anonymous Coward]

If you really don't understand then you must be an idiot.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[Anonymous Coward]

Well last two times I installed Win 7 professional, that I got from msdnaa, I did not see a browser choice

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[Dupple]

I don't understand why they're doing this. There has been a browser choice screen shipped with it and via windows update for ages now. It stinks of profitteering on the part of the EU. You don't hear them suing the crap out of pharmaceutical companies for a monopoly either.

Here's a little back ground

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Microsoft_competition_case

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[WaffleMonster]

You can ship the screen in the code, but if you never show it to users what good is it then? Microsoft admits they didn't comply, so what's the problem with the EU fining Microsoft?

A billion dollars for a browser choice dialouge? It is beyond my comphrension how this could be considered rational or acceptable in any way.

Why not make it a trillion dollar fine and fill out interpols most wanted roster with Microsoft employees?

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[Anonymous Coward]

How about a $10k fine? $10k is a lot of money to you and me. If I got a $10k fine, I would pay attention and so would you. Give Microsoft a $10k fine and possibly not even their accountants would notice until someone does an audit in 2030.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[GNious]

A billion dollars for a browser choice dialouge? It is beyond my comphrension how this could be considered rational or acceptable in any way.

Has it been stated anywhere that they will also fine this specific violation at 1 billion dollars?
I mean, just because the last time Microsoft violated EU laws it got slapped with a fine of that size, it does not follow that this different violation will get the same penalty.

Anyways, the fine is "up to 10% of yearly global revenue", and could include daily fines if Microsoft doesn't fix the issue in a timely manner.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[ThatsMyNick]

Ignoring a court ruling would land most people in jail for contempt of court. I think the EU should start fining corporations percentage of revenues for contempt of court (a billion is a start, but it should be higher if it has to have any effect on microsoft)

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[Joce640k]

A billion dollars for a browser choice dialouge? It is beyond my comphrension how this could be considered rational or acceptable in any way.

It's proportional to the company profits. All the big number means is that Microsoft earns a lot of money.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[buglista]

And some MS (I assume?) installs keep sneakily reverting me to fucking Bing. The offence is not having a monopoly - it's abusing it, ie. leveraging your other crap onto people's desktops by virtue of having dominance in the OS arena.
If you had read the fucking article, you would have seen that MS admits the breach anyway: "The company acknowledged its mistake in July, saying it was now distributing software with the browser option and also offered to extend the compliance period for an additional 15 months."

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[Anonymous Coward]

They are applying existing laws. They didn't make this up for MS. You are an idiot. Go and inform yourself

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[pointyhat]

It did show to the users - all our laptops popped up with it causing much confusion to our users. Our desktop machines, it didn't as we didn't apply the patch. So both the positive and negative cases are confirmed.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[Anonymous Coward]

The fine is set so high because Microsoft repeatedly and willingly ignores what the EU tells them to do, not because what Microsoft is doing wrong is worth a billion.

If you keep parking your car in a no-parking zone and just pay the low fines because you can afford them at some point the police will just impound your car and haul you in front of a judge. This is the corporate equivalent.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[Anonymous Coward]

They need the money to bailout Spain...

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[martyros]

A billion dollars for a browser choice dialouge? It is beyond my comphrension how this could be considered rational or acceptable in any way.

Well the point of the fine is to make it economically adventageous for Microsoft to follow the law. Suppose that they were expecting to benefit by $250M (through network effects of having a larger market share, &c) by having 28 million people running IE by default instead of being given a choice. And suppose they thought there was a 50% chance they'd just get away with it. Ignoring morality or commitment to rule of law or anything like that, and looking only at money, what's the rational decision for the following fine amounts?

• $100,000: Expected value of breaking the law is $250M - (0.5 * $100k) = $250M (rounded to 3 decimal places). No-brainer.
• $100,000,000: Expected value of breaking the law is $250M - (0.5 * $100M) = $200M. This is just a 20% tax, but still well worth it.
• $500,000,000: Expected value of breaking the law is $250M - (0.5 * $250M) = $0. But maybe our chances are a bit better than 50% -- and it's so easy, we might as well do it as not. Besides, at least we get to be evil, which we enjoy.
• $1,000,000,000: Expected value of breaking the law is $250M - (0.5 * $1B) = $-250M. Ah -- probably not worth it then.

Given the size of Microsoft, and the potential benefit they get from breaking the law, a "rational" fine is one big enough to make it "rational" for MS not to play games with the EU anymore.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[Anonymous Coward]

Or rather, put corporate leaders in jail, for contempt of court.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[SuricouRaven]

The US government has also taken action against Microsoft for abuse of their monopoly status. Independantly.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[Splab]

Oh really? Perhaps you should start reading news from other sources than the spoonfed 'merican sources.

The EU are more than happy to sue the crap out of anyone who breaks the law, whether it's a local company or foreign megacorp. Also, it's not about profitteering, it's about protecting the consumers and competition, both locally and globally - 1 billion euro is nothing, it's a drop in the bucket when you deal with economics of the EU scale - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece Greeze owes more than 300 billion euro, a one billion fine wouldn't even cover the interest for a quater of a year (let alone a month, depending on rate).

Also, as Microsoft hasn't actually paid it's fines, using fines as a mean of providing income really isn't feasible...

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[westlake]

You can ship the screen in the code, but if you never show it to users what good is it then?

How long did it take the EU bureacracy to discover that the browser choice screen was missing on some systems? A year? Two years? Did anyone outside the bureacracy give a damn one way or the other?

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[mwvdlee]

A billion dollars for a browser choice dialouge? It is beyond my comphrension how this could be considered rational or acceptable in any way.

The browser choice thing is one of many possible solutions for the underlying problem that is anti-competitive behaviour.
This anti-competitive behaviour was largely (though not solely) responsible for the downfall of Netscape.
Whether that is worth a billion dollar is a different matter.
It's notable that neither iOS nor Android has been subject to such regulation, despite both claiming to have the type of marketshare Microsoft had at the time.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[mwvdlee]

Anyways, the fine is "up to 10% of yearly global revenue", and could include daily fines if Microsoft doesn't fix the issue in a timely manner.

Is it just me who thinks that "up to 10% of yearly global revenue" might possibly be worth it for Microsoft?
It certainly could have been worth it back when they were the clear browser-war winner.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[Anonymous Coward]

Right, like how Apple aren't allowed to ship with Safari as the default browser, and Canonical aren't allowed to ship Ubuntu with firefox as the default browser, and Google aren't allowed to ship ChromeOS with Chrome as the default browser. Same rules applying to everyone.

Oh, wait...

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[brisk0]

= $250M (rounded to 3 decimal places)

Just to be pedantic, that would be three significant figures, not decimal places.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[Anonymous Coward]

Surely it should be proportional to the damage caused by them breaking the rules.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, because 1.2 billion sure helps a lot when spains total debt is 1.2 TRILLION. 1/1000th. Yeah, pretty certain that's why, and not because Microsoft is an evil monopoly illegally using their monopoly to kill competition.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[pointyhat]

You are right. Absolutely noone actually gave a fuck apart from a few zealots on Slashdot and about 10 people at a couple of browser vendors.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[Schmorgluck]

You're confusing fines and damages. Fines are a punition and are part of criminal law, damages are for reparation of prejudice and part of civil law.

They follow different rules. No general principle of law exists that forbids fines to be adjusted to the means of the condemned.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[Anonymous Coward]

Did they ignore the ruling or just F-up? If a mistake are they willing to fix it?

I have 4 different browsers on my Win7 machine at home including IE and I can make any one the default with just a few mouse clicks. Given the fact that installing any other browser is simple in Windows, the entire thing is stupid as it gets!

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[jbonomi]

Can you expand on this "reverting to bing" behavior? I'm not saying it doesn't happen or anything, I'm just not exactly sure what you mean. I've been using nothing but windows for the past few years and I don't think I've even seen Bing on my screen once.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[GNious]

10% might be worth it, but it can turn out that the daily fines end up burning Microsoft badly.

Others have called for a ban on Windows (or perhaps just Explorer?), which would be much more drastic and rather un-EU-like I think.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[hawkinspeter]

I don't understand how people can't understand the difference between "having a monopoly" and "abusing a monopoly".

I can't think of any pharmaceutical companies abusing a monopoly (e.g. you can only swallow our pills with our own brand bottled water) which is probably why they're not in trouble.

The problem that Microsoft itself acknowledged is that the browser choice screen wasn't being displayed in compliance with the 2009 ruling. What don't you understand?

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[micheas]

They swore under oath that they were complying with the order when they were not.

This is especially stupid of Microsoft considering that when they swore under oath that they were having problems complying with the order the court basically said, no problem let us know when you will be in compliance.

So the real issue is the sworn statements under penalty of perjury that they were complying when they were not. I would not hire Microsofts attorneys unless I needed some crack disposed of.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[Anonymous Coward]

For preventing OEM's installing other browsers. Not just for including a browser.

Where do you want it to stop? Ban them from shipping with notepad because their OS "monopoly" is hurting competition from other text editors? Ban them from shipping with explorer because their OS "monopoly" is hurting competition from other file managers? Both those bans would make exactly as much sense as the "browser choice" bullshit.

As an EU citizen, my intelligence is being insulted by this. They think I'm too stupid to install another web browser if I want one. That's an outrageous degree of contempt. You know how stupid the average slashdotter thinks everyone in the world except himself is? That is how stupid they think we are.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[Seeteufel]

Well, Microsoft signed a contract where they agreed to do X and if they fail to do X pay punitive damages. They didn't comply. They have to pay. Pacta sunt servanda.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[Seeteufel]

There was a fixed review cycle and complaints from competitors. They turned out to be factual and true. No one expects a company not to comply with a such a contractual settlement. It never happened before as Commissioner Almunia said.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[green1]

Neither Android, nor iOS has 90+% of the smart phone market. And that's the point, there is actual competition at work between the 2 platforms, so you can't state that either one has a monopoly on smart phones. As such it's impossible for either one to abuse a monopoly position as Microsoft has been convicted of doing.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[Seeteufel]

You don't get it. It was not a competition ruling. It was a mere contractual settlement where Microsoft signed up to offer and comply with the terms and conditions, together with contractual damages. That was a "settlement" of a larger, a real competition case brought forward by competitors. "Browser Choice" was Microsofts own invention and they failed to comply with their obligations. That never happened before.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[Seeteufel]

It wasn't a ruling, it was a contractual settlement.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[micheas]

No, and if Microsoft has said "Sorry, but there are technical problems complying with the law with our new operating system, we need more time to come into compliance." The EU bureacracy probably would have just said something like "OK, let us know when you are back in compliance so we can restart the clock on the consent decree."

Instead Microsoft lied under oath about being in compliance. With the predictable results.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[micheas]

However lying about something that nobody cares about. WTF were they thinking?

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[hawkinspeter]

What's the main difference(s) between a ruling and a contractual settlement?

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[Anonymous Coward]

Where is the fine for Apple? They have no dialogue to offer browser choice. Fining Microsoft for including Internet Explorer is just a money grab. How the fuck is someone going to go online and download the browser of their choice without one preinstalled to begin with? Just because Microsoft's OS is more popular that justifies different treatment? With the iPhone and app store Apple has complete control over what software people are even allowed to install. That's a lot more monopolistic than MS has ever been.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok, so looking at the Wiki page I am reminded that this is the dumbest most obvious money grab by states for corporate cash. They are piggybacking on anti MS sentiment to steal money. If it is illegal for Microsoft to include Windows Media Player in it's OS then it should also be illegal for Apple to include iTunes right? I mean MS doesn't even operate a store based on Windows Medial Player and Apple pretty much requires you use iTunes if you have one of their IOS devices. What is the difference here? MS is the big bad guy and Apple is your friend? Personal feelings aside how is what Apple is doing less fine worthy?

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[mcgrew]

No general principle of law exists that forbids fines to be adjusted to the means of the condemned.

In this case it does. The fine is expressed as a percentage of profits. Too bad speeding fines aren't like that, if those damned BMW and Escalade drivers got $10,000 tickets for blasting past me at 90 mph you'd see far fewer rich bastards flout the law like that.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[RobertLTux]

and just for fun you could help folks choose by using http://ninite.com/.net-7zip-air-chrome-firefox-flash-flashie-foxit-java-opera-pdfcreator-reader-safari-shockwave-silverlight/

to preload Chrome FireFox Opera and Safari (plus a buncha other stuff)

btw this does solve the problem of how to install another web browser without using MSIE very nicely (the link gives you a download to do the install)

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[mcgrew]

And some MS (I assume?) installs keep sneakily reverting me to fucking Bing.

Not just MS, but I'm sure the ones who are doing it are being paid for it by MS. I've seen it after installs from other devs. At least they're not as bad as Yahoo. Look for a Firefox downlod on Yahoo, and what you DL comes with the Bing Bar, the Yahoo bar, and with Bing as the default search.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[pointyhat]

You should try the medical profession. They are experts in lying about shit people do care about.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[Luckyo]

Country dependent. Here in Finland many fines are based on income, and are called päiväsakko (daily fine). The laws generally specify how many of these daily fines you pay. For example, you can get 30 daily fines for speeding.

The actual size of a fine is determined by your income based on taxation records. Our yellow press has some moments of fun when some famous hockey player gets caught speeding and ends up paying tens of thousands euroes for it.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[pointyhat]

Well that's your fault for downloading it from there. You wouldn't buy food from an unlicensed trader would you? I've never had any of that crap come down with a download.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[Anonymous Coward]

... put corporate leaders in jail, for contempt of court.

Shooting a few of them would certainly get the attention of the rest, don't you think?

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[shutdown -p now]

It's not willingly ignored, though. The browser choice dialog decision was accepted, and was actually implemented and kept running. Then some WU update broke it.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[Schmorgluck]

Yeah, I remember a story some years ago about a guy in Finland who'd been fined for speeding to an amount of... maybe not millions, but it was impressive. And nothing in this infringes on equality before law. I wish we would implement this in France.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[Seeteufel]

A ruling is that the authority orders them to do X as a result of investigation of the case brought forward by competitors. Like a judgement in a court. You could then appeal the ruling. A settlement is that they pledge to do Y by private law contract and the authority kindly suspends the pending case. They also assign a third party to watch compliance. Technically the antitrust case of the competitors was quite strong because bundling is illegal for a monopolist but the authority was unwilling to pursue the case after its "statement of objections". Note that some competitors as Opera brought it forward because they were pissed of the OOXML incident and because they wanted Microsoft to better comply with W3C standards. Also certain other minor charges were dropped along the settlement. The settlement proposal was presented by Steve Ballmer in a personal pizza dinner with Competition Commissioner Neelie Kroes.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[mcgrew]

I didn't, the computer's owner did. I uninstalled it and reinstalled from Mozilla's site.

Re:I don't understand why they're doing this

[buglista]

I have to install a lot of stuff as part of my job. I really try to untick all the stupid search engine/browser bar boxes, but every now and then IE is searching using Bing again rather than Google. I probably forgot to untick something, but it still pisses me off, and IMHO, it's still unfair leveraging by MS.

This is slashdot

[mumblestheclown]

So will we see gratuitous microsoft bashing or instead will people here admit the obvious fact that the ruling was utter nonsense that basically amounted to legalized extortion for no legitimate public policy reason?

(checks comment titles: "They have to ban windows in EU") ... sigh.

Re:This is slashdot

[Guignol]

This is slashdot

Ahh thank you sir for pointing that out, I could have been thinking I was looking at gmail or something like that
Some people are really helpful, last time I was about to watch a show, and a guy went completely out of his way, he almost killed himself just to tell me that "It's...." but then the flying circus jingle started

Re:This is slashdot

[metacell]

How do you figure? Microsoft clearly violated the terms of the ruling, which resulted in a fine. Are you objecting to

a) the court's interpretation of the law?
b) the anti-monopoly laws in effect in the EU?
c) anti-monopoly laws in general?

Re:This is slashdot

[Ash-Fox]

This is slashdot

Wrong...

THIS... IS... SPARTA!

*kicks mumblestheclown into the hole of forever*

Re:This is slashdot

[Seeteufel]

It was not a ruling. It was a settlement, a contract where Microsoft pledged to comply with certain obligations or get punitive damages. In return an antitrust case was scrapped. Never before such a settlement has been broken. So the EU Commission Competition Commissioner Almunia was quite surprised. And Microsoft quickly admitted they broke the contract and offered an additional deal. So the only relevant question is not how to set the fines. I assume a) Microsoft will need to put some meat on the table, e.g. open source IE, prolong the application time of the settlement b) Damages will be set, up to 10% of their annual turnover. Probably they will keep it below.

Re:This is slashdot

[metacell]

Good point.

It didn't ship for 17 months

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/07/17/microsoft_ec_browser_choice_fresh_investigation/

So 28 million Windows went out without the choice, and Microsoft got away with it for 17 months. I don't see why you have difficulty understanding it, it all seems pretty simple to me. It's not like they can claim ignorance, they were told by their competitors it wasn't showing the browser choice and they chose to 'investigate' it for a heck of a long time before finally fixing it when Brussels became involved.

It's just Microsoft being Microsoft, they'll never change, just hit them with a big fat non-compliance fooling-nobody fine and move on till the next time (which will be the 3rd time) they do it.

Question: have they ever paid a single Euro?

[Rogerborg]

We keep reading that they're being investigated, charged, "fined", but cut to the chase: what actual sums have left Microsoft's account and gone into the Brussels swill trough?

Re:Question: have they ever paid a single Euro?

[Dupple]

Here you go

In 2008 MS was fined US$ 1.35 billion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_litigation#February_2008_fine

Re:Question: have they ever paid a single Euro?

[metacell]

We keep reading that they're being investigated, charged, "fined", but cut to the chase: what actual sums have left Microsoft's account and gone into the Brussels swill trough?

The summary says $1.28 billion, i.e, just slightly more than Apple got from Samsung in a patent lawsuit where the jury didn't understand how prior art worked.

Re:Question: have they ever paid a single Euro?

[Anonymous Coward]

Those 1.2 billion have indeed be paid, as far as I know.
Because I read back then, that they started to comply, when the EU started fining them several million *a day*. So it must have hurt them.
And I can remember that they once actually banned Windows XP and MS Office from sale until they complied.

BTW: I wanna see that level of fines in the US. (Remember: They fined the European division.)
Not just $100,000, "paid" with completely worthless "licenses for Windows and Office" given to *schools*... which is an insult and like somebody convicted for selling meth being able to give "free meth" to school children to get out of jail... which on top of all isn't even actual meth that took actual work with actual worth, but a mere copy (like only a picture) with only imaginary worth. Brash, brazen, Microsoft.

Re:Question: have they ever paid a single Euro?

[Anonymous Coward]

I picture you hunched over obscure comic books or action figures in between such insightful posts.

Re:Question: have they ever paid a single Euro?

[metacell]

I picture you without a girlfriend and stuck in a dead-end job, where the only relief for your frustration is trolling people on Internet forums.

Re:Question: have they ever paid a single Euro?

[shutdown -p now]

It was actually a bit more than that if you also count all the non-compliance / non-cooperation fines paid since the court process started. You can try summing it all up, they're listed in the corresponding Wikipedia article. If I remember correctly, the grand total was something about $2 billion.

Re:Question: have they ever paid a single Euro?

[metacell]

That's a good point.

Hooray, now invest that funding!

[Anonymous Coward]

The EU funded worthwhile projects like minix 3... if they are going to be using the money from microsoft to do something directly useful to choice of compliant browsers then maybe that money could be spread among the other browser developers or maybe even be used to help promote them.

Re:Hooray, now invest that funding!

[Ash-Fox]

The EU funded worthwhile projects like minix 3...

Last I checked, the European Research Council did work within the European Union, but they weren't operated by the European Union and I don't think you should be attributing credit for funding to the wrong people.

$1.28 billion? No problem!

[metacell]

$1.28 billion? No problem, Microsoft can win that back with a patent suit or two !

warmup fo the the main event

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows 8 "app store" will make this seem like a flea bite

Re:warmup fo the the main event

[SuricouRaven]

If the fine is the same size, then $1.28B is a small price to pay for the type of money and power that controlling Windows software sales will bring.

Looks like 100 million units

[Anonymous Coward]

I made the mistake of taking that 28 million at face value, but that number comes from Microsoft wishing to downplay what it did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_7

"On March 4, 2010, Microsoft announced that it had sold more than 90 million Windows 7 licenses.", so when SP1 was introduced it was 90 million.
"On July 12, 2011, the sales figure was refined to over 400 million end-user licenses and business installations"
So when they fixed it they'd shipped 400 million.

So 310 million windows were shipped, and Microsoft is claiming less than 10% market share for Europe? Seriously? They've previously claimed that 35% was Europe giving a number more than 100 million....

Re:Looks like 100 million units

[Your.Master]

The bug was that if you didn't see the choice screen before installing SP1, you would never see it. Most of those 400 million were sold with the original Windows 7 with no service pack, and got the choice screen as soon as they clicked the blue e.

At least the final result is good.

[wvmarle]

FTA:

Market share of Microsoft's Internet Explorer in Europe has roughly halved since 2008 to 29 percent so far this year as it has lost clients mostly to Google's Chrome.

Chrome controls 29.3 percent of the European browsing market, while Mozilla's Firefox has 30.3 percent of the market, according to web research firm Statcounter.

That's 90% of the market equally shared over three browsers. With the other 10% for the rest. Well I'd call that a rather healthy situation, and a great progress from 90%+ for IE.

Browser selection screen or not, the dominance of IE is obviously broken without any other browser becoming dominant, and that I'd say is good. Very good. The next step is a proper html standard, and a standard interpretation/rendering of that standard.

Re:At least the final result is good.

[Anonymous Coward]

So in a few years, the EU should sue Google because Chrome is not displaying a browser choice?

Re:At least the final result is good.

[green1]

Only if chrome is shipped as the default browser on the vast majority of computers sold...
Microsoft didn't get in trouble for IE being popular, they got in trouble for abusing their Windows monopoly to force a default of IE on to the majority of computers. If all those people had chosen IE for themselves then the EU never would have been involved in the first place.

Re:At least the final result is good.

[Seeteufel]

You don't get it. Windows is a monopoly and bundling is illegal. So competitors had a perfect case when they complained. Microsoft reached a contractual settlement where they self-obliged to a browser ballot screen. They were not ordered to do it, they offered the deal and signed up to it. And they broke that contract. You can't imagine a company to be that stupid.

In other news....

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft to bail out Greece and other struggling EU member countries under the guise of 'fines'.

Re:In other news....

[ledow]

Or:

Multiple-convicted monopolist company with assets on a par with the entire EU annual budget, seeks to avoid legal redress by failing to implement agreed-to legal measures (or only implementing them half-assedly) and claim they didn't know, nor bother to check, they were working for several YEARS, after already being fined half a billion Euros and made to implement those measures in the first place (after ANY NUMBER of appeals and legal arguments failed because the evidence was just so overwhelming).

It's all in the spin, really, and it's hard to have sympathy for the convicted monopolist worth more than a lot of EU countries combined, when they are basically here because they can't be bothered to instruct one person within their company to keep an eye on their half-a-billion-pound + expenses mistake and the complementary obligation they were legally required to implement over several years.

If you wanna do business in the EU, you have to stick by EU law, no matter how ridiculous you think it is or how much you disagree with its application. If that's a problem, don't do business with it. And if you don't want a repeat of your half-a-billion-dollar-plus-expenses blatant disregard for that law, maybe you should have one of the many very expensive lawyers, or even just someone involved in implementing the solution, keep an eye on it once a month, say, for the duration of your punishment.

Re:In other news....

[green1]

Problem is, they're used to doing business in the USA where if you don't like the law you buy a few politicians. This whole idea in the EU of a justice system and having to follow it's decisions is just too foreign a concept for them.

Oh do shutup

[Anonymous Coward]

40,000 workstations is just one small division of many in my neck of the woods and we're rolling out Linux clients to the rank and file.

You're just a speck!

Re:Oh do shutup

[Anonymous Coward]

Poor users.

And was that because they had to put choice in?

[Anonymous Coward]

And was that reduction in share at least in part due to MS complying with the law and putting a choice screen in their installation for that time? A process they are no longer doing, therefore may be done merely to stop them losing market share?

WTF?

[mosb1000]

How did they ever think they could get away with this?! If I were deciding the penalty, I'd probably take them for all they're worth. They were blatantly violating the ruling! They obviously aren't expecting the court to take this seriously.

Wait until you see the UEFI case...

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows 8 certification of ARM: must not be able to run any other operating system:

MANDATORY: Enable/Disable Secure Boot. On non-ARM systems, it is required to implement the ability to disable Secure Boot via firmware setup. A physically present user must be allowed to disable Secure Boot via firmware setup without possession of Pkpriv. Programmatic disabling of Secure Boot either during Boot Services or after exiting EFI Boot Services MUST NOT be possible. Disabling Secure MUST NOT be possible on ARM systems.

Re:Wait until you see the UEFI case...

[pointyhat]

Same on iPads. Windows 8 on ARM is basically an iPad. What's the issue?

Brilliant Solution!

[some old guy]

Never mind bailing out Greece, Spain, and Italy for the umpteenth time.

Just fine the living hell out of Microsoft and apply it to to their debts. Truly an inspired way to recapitalize the ECB before the Euro crashes.

What the heck, find some pretext to grab a slice of the Apple pie too.

Positively wizard!

What do you expect?

[anonieuweling]

I mean: from a company that has never ever shown a real grip on reality, on perceptions, on quality or whatsoever.
Windows 2008R2 has loads of bugs, even I (a simple sysadmin) encounter them on a daily basis, despite the R2 and despite the updates and fixes. The MFing OS corrupts it's own files (related to `features` and `roles`) when just applying the fixes after install.
And they only have been busy with a more or less serious Windows since 1993 or so?
And now you want them to implement a simple feature to select a webbrowser to be 100% according to your wishes?
That ain't gonna happen!

OTOH the sum of the fine will of course be lobbied heavily and is subject to change to the downside.

The should just stop nagging..

[SuperDre]

As a EU citizen I think the EU should stop bothering MS over this browser selectionscreen, otherwise they should also go after Apple for not providing the same option for iOS and MacOSX. MS has already payed enough, and letting 'dumb' users decide which browser to use is one of the most moronic things to do as they have no clue as to which browser is better (they all have their positives and negatives), they propably will select the one that has the nicest icon or name... Stop wasting EU tax money on such stupid things...

Re:The should just stop nagging..

[tuppe666]

As a EU citizen I think the EU should stop bothering MS over this browser selectionscreen, otherwise they should also go after Apple for not providing the same option for iOS and MacOSX. MS has already payed enough, and letting 'dumb' users decide which browser to use is one of the most moronic things to do as they have no clue as to which browser is better (they all have their positives and negatives), they propably will select the one that has the nicest icon or name... Stop wasting EU tax money on such stupid things...

Ignoring the EU citizen bit. I personally believe. The EU should have been more vigilant in preventing the Monopoly happening in the first place. The sanction should not be money, but replacing IE as an option from the slection screen :).

I hate eliteist comments like yours attacking moronic(sic) users. The selection screen is a useful way of quickly informing users about the choices available to them.

Microsoft should obviously be penalised for it failing to comply with the 2009 ruling, but the EU should also make sure that Microsoft is paying the right Tax in the EU, and tax loopholes closed if their are any. I am tired of Mega corporations not paying tax.

Re:The should just stop nagging..

[Seeteufel]

You don't get it. Microsoft proposed the browser ballot screen themselves and signed a contract where they obliged themselves to provide it or receive punitive damages. That contract was a settlement to a real competition case where competitors complained on grounds of law and had a strong legal case, namely illegal bundling. The Commission was very kind to accept the settlement and didn't expect Microsoft to violate it.

Re:The should just stop nagging..

[SuperDre]

Oh stop it.. a browser (or mediaplayer) is a basic part of any modern OS. I don't see anyone complain about not being able to select a browser/mediaplayer on iOS/MacOSX or Linux.. Also MS never prevented other companies from releasing their own browser/mediaplayers on windows, while Apple is preventing others from doing that.. So I think they should go after Apple much harder for preventing others from releasing better software.. People should stop bitching, what's next, sueing MS for 'bundling' notepad or wordpad? I don't see Adobe sueing MS for bundling Paint..

Hint: The answers are all no

[Zero__Kelvin]

"You're wasting your time. You're talking about people who are too stupid to download Firefox or Chrome without government involvement."

So you are saying they don't have to run a major attack vector just so that they can avoid running a major attack vector? What about when they want to keep their computer secure by using Windows Update; can they avoid using Internet Explorer by using Chrome or Firefox? Can they simply uninstall IE so they it won't run against their wishes at various times? Can they stop Windows from interrupting the Update process and prompting for the inevitable IE updates that attempt to shove Bing down their throat?

Think you need to look in your own backyard

[tuppe666]

They need the money to bailout Spain...

You would think America would get Apple;Google and Microsoft to pay tax hitting $16 trillion

Can someone please explain the original ruling?

[dohzer]

Why do they need to give the option? It's not like they are charging extra money for a browser... it's free. As are most other browsers.
I guess I never understood why they don't also need to present alternatives to basically every other application that comes with Windows (MSPaint, Calculator, Solitaire, Notepad, etc). Why not?

Re:Can someone please explain the original ruling?

[ledow]

Nobody, not one person, initiated complaints in the "plain text editor", "basic bitmap editor", "calculator" software categories that were proven in a court of law to be a monopolistic misuse of power to ensure that ONLY their calculator/whatever dominated the market for years.

And the "real" Office suite is an entirely separate (and therefore optional) product.

Which is lucky because if MS were sued by every software manufacturer whose market they had manipulated contrary to anti-monopoly laws, there'd be an awful lot of these "You owe us $0.5bn" messages on some executive's desk. AV/spyware is probably the next major category, but I'm not aware of them doing dirty tricks like paying their end distributors NOT to put McAffee/Norton on machines that already have Windows Defender etc.

It's not a case of what they did. It's a case of what was brought to, and can be proven in, a court of law as deliberate monopolistic manipulation of the relevant market. Either they don't do it in other markets, or they haven't been brought to court for it (yet?).

Re:Can someone please explain the original ruling?

[Spad]

Because the other applications (Notepad, Paint, etc) are minimally functional compared to their competition, they don't have massive market share compared the competition (partially for the same reason) and you're not forced to use Paint to get hold of a copy of Photoshop.

Re:Can someone please explain the original ruling?

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't browsing the web a basic function of a computer? How is it the EU's job and authority to dictate what features an OS may or may not have? Apple and Google both include browsers. Does Microsoft not allow people to install software via CD, USB, or floppy? The real question is how will people obtain these alternate browsers without having the means to go online in the first place. Can people call 411 and get the phone number for the Mozilla foundation, call them up and purchase a hard copy of Firefox over the phone and have them ship a physical disk?

Funny...

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see them forcing Apple, all the Linux distros, etc, to allow people a choice of browsers at installation.

Once you're in windows, you can go and install whatever you want.

The EU must be hurting for money to offset all their losses/austerity.

MS should just pull all licenses in the EU, tell the EU to fvck off, and then start suing all businesses in the EU for illegal use of software.

Re:Funny...

[toriver]

Monopolies are held to a different standard than their minuscule competitors.

They would not "pull licenses" to their customers just because "the EU" is being nasty to them. The licenses have been granted to companies and individuals that have no say in the matter, so why should they be punished?

And where would they sue, anyway? In the European courts where they no longer would be welcome? Microsoft is a legal entity that only exists as a fiat of law: They have no rights other than those granted to them by Governments. If Microsoft were as utterly stupid as you indicate, Europe would just revoke Microsoft's copyright - a Government-granted monopoly, remember - and put Windows into the public domain there, thus making the "illegal" use legal.

Re:Funny...

[green1]

. If Microsoft were as utterly stupid as you indicate, Europe would just revoke Microsoft's copyright - a Government-granted monopoly, remember - and put Windows into the public domain there, thus making the "illegal" use legal.

If the EU actually wanted to hurt Microsoft they would enforce those copyrights as harshly as possibly. Microsoft may want to get paid for every copy of windows, but they'd still rather you use a pirated copy of windows than a different OS altogether. If the people in the EU woke up and realized they could function without windows, the rest of the world might find out too, and then microsoft would be in real trouble.

Unfortunately I know that the EU would never consider actually banning windows, and of course microsoft would never pull out of the EU either. most likley MS will get another little slap on the wrist and continue to illegally abuse their monopoly position as they always have.

Re:Funny...

[Seeteufel]

They didn't force Microsoft either. Microsoft signed a contract to do so in order to settle a strong competition case brought forward by competitiors and the Commission let Microsoft get away with it. It is Microsoft's own fault when they don't comply with the ballot screen contract. There is no "ruling", no "order them to". The Commission is not after their money, it is Microsoft which violated their own contractual obligations and faces the damages foreseen in the contract.

Re:Funny...

[ledow]

Except MS makes more money out of the EU, even after fines, than it does from the US.

"Let's tell an entire continent to fuck off" isn't sensible business in ANY form.

Re:Hint: The answers are all no

[gsgriffin]

I'm confused why Apple isn't being sued for the exact same kind of behaviour with their products and ecosystem. I guess Apple must get much larger and then people will open their eyes and realize the are stuck with no alternative as everything they've downloaded over the years is controlled by Apple.

Re:Hint: The answers are all no

[Anonymous Coward]

Dramatic much? These aren't real problems. Have some perspective.

Now what about windows and mac app stores with the

[Joe_Dragon]

Now what about windows and mac app stores with the same lock in??

and the systems that can only run app store apps?

Re:Now what about windows and mac app stores with

[jader3rd]

Now what about windows and mac app stores with the same lock in??

and the systems that can only run app store apps?

They're not important.

OK: "Argue with the numbers" (Part #1 of 2)

[Anonymous Coward]

"Microsoft OS is not important, they don't provide any infrastructure at all. Servers running Linux and other Unix-like OSes are much more important." - by aglider (2435074) on Friday September 28, @04:57AM (#41485971) Homepage

367++ TOP FORTUNE 100/500 (or best 100 to work for per CNN Money) COMPANIES, EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS, &/or GOVERNMENT AGENCIES USING WINDOWS (over other solutions like Linux) both in HIGH TPM ENVIRONS, & FROM "TOP 100 COMPANIES TO WORK FOR" (per CNN Money 2011):

---

38 HIGH TPM & 99.999% "uptime" examples:

---

XEROX: Managing 7++ million transactions a day for office devices for its customers using Windows Server 2003 + SQLServer 2005 64-bit with 99.999% uptime!

NASDAQ: The U.S.' LARGEST STOCK EXCHANGE, Since 2005 has had Windows Server 2003 + SQLServer 2005 in failover clusters running the "official trade data dissemination system" for them in 24x7 fabled "5-9's" 99.999% uptime, doing 64,000 transactions PER SECOND (compare London Stock Exchange using Linux @ 3,000 per second)

FUJIFILM GROUP: Tracks data for its imaging, information, & documentation for its products & services using Windows Server 2003 w/ a custom SAP solution on SQLServer 2005, achieving 99.999% uptime.

HILTON HOTELS: Manages 1.4 Billion records a day for customers in 1000's of their hotels worldwide - for 370,000 rooms & catering services forecasts (switching from 6 *NIX systems to 1 Windows Server 2003 + SQLServer 2005 clustered failover system using a data warehouse with 7 million rows & 99.998% uptime).

MEDITERRANEAN SHIPPING COMPANY: Manages & Tracks 7 million containers out of 116 countries daily using Windows Server 2003 + SQLServer 2005 in failover clusters with 99.999% uptime.

SWISS INTERNATIONAL AIRLINES: Serves 70 airport destinations worldwide, with 6,500 employees + 110 branch offices via Windows Server 2003 & Active Directory with 99.95% uptime (all while growing their business 30% per year). THEIR PREVIOUS LINUX SYSTEM COULD ONLY HANDLE 250 concurrent users - the Windows one handles over 500++ users concurrently/simultaneously!

UNILEVER: Global consumer good leader, migrated to mySAP on SQLServer 2005 + Windows Server 2003 & scaled UP their operations by over 200% & yet saved money + have 99.999% uptime!

MOTOROLA: Using System Management Server, Windows Server 2003 & SQLServer 2005 to conduct inventory of 65,000 desktops from a single location (e.g. for system updates corporate & worldwide).

NISSAN: Uses Windows Server 2003 to manage 50,000 employees' email & calendaring (w/ out VPN, & using Exchange Server 2003) for local AND remote + mobile users.

TOYOTA MOTOR SALES: Reduced the # of techs needed per dealership (1,000's worldwide) from 7, to 1 using Windows Server 2003.

SIEMENS: 420,000++ people, 130 business units over 190 countries managed in Windows Active Directory

REUTERS: Managing 3,000 servers worldwide @ customer sites internationally (using only 4 managers to do so, remotely).

DELL COMPUTER: Managing 130,000 servers & 100,000 PC's worldside using Windows Server 2003 + 40 million customers' data worldwide.

LEXIS NEXIS: Searches BILLIONS of documents each second delivering news, legal, & business information.

HSBC: Deploys System Center solutions to 15,000 Servers worldwide & 300,000 desktops using Windows Server 2003.

RAYOVAC: Chose Windows Server 2003 over Linux to manage their infrastructure - saving 1 million dollars estimated in software, staffing, & support costs.

JETTAINER/LUFTHANSA/U.S. AIRWAYS: managing shipping to 3,000 flights to 400 airports every day.

CONTINENTAL AIRLINES: Manages crew communication systems, log on/log off, schedules, & shifts using Windows Server 2008 worldwide.

JET BLUE AIRWAYS: Managin

OK: "Argue with the numbers" (Part #2 of 2)

[Anonymous Coward]

TOP 50/200++ RANKED SOUTHERN REGIONAL UNIVERSITIES USING Windows (from -> http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/regional-colleges-north )

---

The Citadel: Runs their domain on Windows -> http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.citadel.edu

Mercer University: Runs their domain on Windows -> http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=mercer.edu

Marymount University: Runs their domain on Windows -> http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.marymount.edu

University of North Carolina - Wilmington: Runs their domain on Windows -> http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=uncw.edu

Elon University: Runs their domain on Windows -> http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.elon.edu

Samford University: Runs their domain on Windows -> http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.samford.edu

Belmont University: Runs their domain on Windows (mix) -> http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.belmont.edu

Bellarmine University: Runs their domain on Windows -> http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.bellarmine.edu

Union University: Runs their domain on Windows -> http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.uu.edu

Converse College: Runs their domain on Windows -> http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.converse.edu

Spring Hill College: Runs their domain on Windows (mix) -> http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.shc.edu

Lipscomb University: Runs their domain on Windows -> http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.lipscomb.edu

Harding University: Runs their domain on Windows -> http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.harding.edu

Queens University of Charlotte: Runs their domain on Windows -> http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.queens.edu

Winthrop University: Runs their domain on Windows -> http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.winthrop.edu

University of Tampa: Runs their domain on Windows -> http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.ut.edu

Murray State University: Runs their domain on Windows -> http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.murraystate.edu

Christopher Newport University: Runs their domain on Windows (mix) -> http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.cnu.edu

Shenandoah University: Runs their domain on Windows -> http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.su.edu

Campbell University: Runs their domain on Windo

Re:OK: "Argue with the numbers" (Part #2 of 2)

[Ash-Fox]

I don't even need to click "Read the rest of this comment..." to know this is yet again, another TL;DR post of APK.

Re:OK: "Argue with the numbers" (Part #2 of 2)

[Zontar The Mindless]

Yeah, he sort of defines monomania, doesn't he.

They were pre-installed with SP1

[Anonymous Coward]

"Most of those 400 million were sold with the original Windows 7 with no service pack,"

That's not true, they update the OEM install disks too when they release a service pack.

Take their Ball and Go Home

[thomasw_lrd]

I wish Microsoft would take their Windows and just go home. I'm sure they've already made a bunch of money off of it. See how long a ban in the EU would last.

First Google, for maybe putting their results higher on their product. No Microsoft for putting their product first on their Operating System. And they let Apple keep selling their iCrack devices just because it has rounded corners. Fuck all govts. This is just a big money grab for the EU to try and shore up some holes in their budget. Before long, the US will realize they can do it too.

Agreed, 110% (& here's his "wakeup call")

[Anonymous Coward]

http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3149609&cid=41487637

APK

P.S.=> I'll let him "argue with the numbers" there, vs. what I quoted from him which YOU questioned also...

... apk

AD and group policy are ridiculous.

[Anonymous Coward]

The only thing that AD and group policy gives you that the free stuff doesn't are SOLELY things that are required by the braindead frigging windows OS.

I can log on to any machine as me and get my programs where I installed them available to me.

Under windows, since everything must be on the C: drive and that must be the local drive, it has to be copied across to the C: drive by AD and group policy.

If you weren't using windows, you wouldn't need AD and group policy.

And what the hell are those other bollocks terms? "mobile device management"? Is that synching? Collaberation? Done. DB? Done. Wbe/Intranet? Done. Office Apps? Done. etc? Done.

VERY INTERESTING (Have YOU tried it?)

[Anonymous Coward]

"Internet Explorer: it's a component. It's a flipping COM server that sits in MSHTML.dll. It's called code reuse. It's a good thing. It's like having a shared library on UNIX. As a counterpoint "Ubuntu default install ships with XPI .so - get the EU to ban it". It's also hardly embedded into the OS if you've ever looked. You can unregister it and remove IE completely and it functions fine still (bar some MMC plugins)." - by pointyhat (2649443) on Friday September 28, @07:50AM (#41486545)

Per my subject-line above: THAT is VERY INTERESTING & imo, "technically insightful" since you're correct that 90% of what "IE" is, IS in that dynamic link library... & it is a COM server that can be unregistered!

(So, again, per my subject above - Have YOU tried doing that? What OS versions have you given this a try on??)

* Thanks for the information... & theoretically, your idea WOULD "do the job", but I'd wonder about more things than MMC plugins, but more for the "Explorer Shell" itself (which is IE as well iirc, since Windows NT 4.x & a patch for it, again, iirc)...

Stuff like THIS is why I tend to read /. - you never know what kind of "creative cookery" one might find useful & that will save time in experimenting by using the experiences of others!

APK

P.S.=> Someone ought to "mod you up" since I can't, because your post has what I feel are INTERESTING & creative technical points... thanks for answering on MY question(s) above also!

"Getting shit done is orders of magnitude more important than politics and being the finest zealot." - by pointyhat (2649443) on Friday September 28, @07:50AM (#41486545)

Funny you stated that - I had a roommate of mine try Linux this year, since he had no valid OS license for what he was raised using: Windows!

So, I set him up on KUbuntu 12.x since I liked it myself since 10.04, & let him "have @ it"...

Sure - he liked it, it did MOST (key point) of what he usually does (websurfing, email, etc. online), but... he's since moved out, found a cheaper place (can't blame him that, as "money talks") & he called yesterday just to "shoot the shit" & lo and behold - he told me HE WENT BACK TO WINDOWS!

I asked why - his reply?

"Oh, I liked Linux well enough, but it wouldn't DO things the way I was used to in Windows, and lacked some programs that worked how I was used to doing things with in Windows"

There you have it: Personally, I *think* this is what Linux is "battling against" - consumer 'use cases'/patterns & habits...

(More than anything... everything begins @ home, including computer use habits, & usually? That's Windows!)

... apk

OK, so don't do me for tax evasion

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, so don't do me for tax evasion unless you do $SOME_OTHER_GUY for it.

Re:OK, so don't do me for tax evasion

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, because including necessary functionality in an operating system is exactly like tax evasion. It's wrong in itself. We would all be much, much better of if no manufacturers included necessary functionality.

"3 strikes, yer OUT" & you FAIL, Ash-Fox... ap

[Anonymous Coward]

"I don't even need to click "Read the rest of this comment..." to know this is yet again, another TL;DR post of APK." - by Ash-Fox (726320) on Friday September 28, @10:34AM (#41488037) Homepage

Considering you can't disprove facts I used? YOU FAIL ( & you know it, I know it, + everyone else reading does now)...

* How many times have you ANNIHILATED YOURSELF this week alone on this very account, Ash-Fox, you troll?

The answer? Below... lol!

APK

P.S.=> It's no "1st" from you either, Ash-Fox - Seeing as You couldn't disprove my points here this week, 2x in a ROW no less:

---

http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3132237&cid=41402955

OR

Here either this week (lmao):

http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3137925&cid=41448805

---

To both, you ran after trolling me completely off-topic as-per-your-usual, just like you will now... since you're unable to disprove concrete, verifiable, & UNDENIABLE facts I used in those posts...

(OR don't these 3 examples show that much? Of course they do!)

As the saying goes: "3 strikes, yer out!"...

... apk

This was YOUR FAIL, troll (3x in a row)

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong...THIS... IS... SPARTA! *kicks mumblestheclown into the hole of forever* by Ash-Fox (726320) on Friday September 28, @10:43AM (#41488145) Homepage

So, no: THIS was SPARTA -> http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3149609&cid=41488325 and that link was also YOU FAILING 3x in a row, troll, vs. your betters!

New legilsation needed

[Anonymous Coward]

What EU should is to implement generic rules which may help re-establish competition in the ICT-market. The currelt legislation doesn't work, and direct attacks on specific products and manufacturers is a bad ide. What should be done is to revoke certain market priveleges from dominant products. Any product that command more than a 40% share of its market should be required to be marketed sold and billed separately (no OEM nonsene). This exposes the real cost of currently bundled products and creates a much easier target for competitors. Users will also benefit from simplified installation procedures that the vendors would have to implement to compensate for loosing the ability to pre-install certain software packages.

Re:New legilsation needed

[green1]

This is exactly what is needed. I'm sick of the idea that it is impossible to go to a major manufacturer and buy a computer without windows pre-installed. That's the part of the anti-competitive behaviour that should have been dealt with. People don't run windows because it's "better", in any meaningful way it's not, People run windows because it's pre-loaded, it's simple as that.

This is not going to pass.

[Anonymous Coward]

Have they heard of Windows N? Or Wikipedia?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_7_editions#Special-purpose_editions
Internet explorer is built in to the OS, can anyone name an operating system that does NOT come with a web browser? Maybe certain builds of gentoo.

Re:"3 strikes, yer OUT" & you FAIL, Ash-Fox...

[docmordin]

It's pretty easy to refute your "facts", considering that you didn't bother checking most of your links. Going only partway through your list, I found a good chunk of the schools you listed didn't run Windows:

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.pace.edu
F5 BIG-IP Apache/2.2.3 (Red Hat) 28-Sep-2012 198.105.44.27 Pace University

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.ucsc.edu
Linux Apache 28-Sep-2012 128.114.109.5 University of California, Santa Cruz

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.mbc.edu
Linux Apache/2.2.3 (Red Hat) 28-Sep-2012 72.32.6.118 Rackspace Hosting

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.lynchburg.edu
Linux nginx/1.0.15 28-Sep-2012 50.56.4.21 Cloud Loadbalancing as a Service-LBaaS (DFW)

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.uncc.edu
Linux Apache 28-Sep-2012 152.15.219.131 University of North Carolina at Charlotte

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.umt.edu
Linux Apache 28-Sep-2012 150.131.194.46 University of Montana

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=spalding.edu
Linux Apache 13-Sep-2012 216.135.72.163 BLUEGRASS.NET

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.biola.edu
Linux nginx 28-Sep-2012 199.19.144.31 Biola University, Inc.

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.immaculata.edu
Linux Apache/2.0.52 (Red Hat) 28-Sep-2012 98.129.134.83 Immaculata University

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.tiu.edu
Linux Apache-Coyote/1.1 28-Sep-2012 38.126.15.210 PSINet, Inc.

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.trevecca.edu
Linux Apache 28-Sep-2012 174.129.33.200 Amazon.com, Inc.

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.trident.edu
Linux Apache/2.2.3 (CentOS) 14-Jan-2012 216.23.173.234 Jazel, LLC

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.canisius.edu
Linux Apache-Coyote/1.1 28-Sep-2012 138.92.8.121 Canisius College

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.bentley.edu
Linux nginx 28-Sep-2012 184.73.245.212 Amazon.com, Inc.

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.scranton.edu
Linux Apache/2.2.3 (Red Hat) 28-Sep-2012 134.198.4.83 University of Scranton

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.emerson.edu
unknown Apache/2.2.9 (Debian) PHP/5.2.6-1+lenny8 with Suhosin-Patch 28-Sep-2012 199.94.80.103 Level 3 Communications, Inc.

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.newpaltz.edu
F5 BIG-IP Apache 28-Sep-2012 137.140.1.48 SUNY College at New Paltz

http://

Re:Hint: The answers are all no

[Zero__Kelvin]

Everybody makes this mistake. They think Apple competes with Microsoft. They don't. Apple is a hardware company. If Apple sold an OS that ran on other peoples hardware rather than bundling an OS with their hardware, then you could expect them to be sued. Apple even goes so far as to offer Boot Camp so that you can run an entirely different Operating System on their hardware if you would like.

Re:Hint: The answers are all no

[Zero__Kelvin]

Bullshit. I just went through the hassle of building, installing, and updating several M$ Server 2008 machines. Trust me. It is a major problem.

Funny you skipped MS servers in them

[Anonymous Coward]

"It's pretty easy to refute your "facts", considering that you didn't bother checking most of your links. Going only partway through your list, I found a good chunk of the schools you listed didn't run Windows:" - by docmordin (2654319) on Friday September 28, @12:34PM (#41489737)

Per my subject-line: Funny you OMIT that, eh?

* NOT!

( Lots of MS was in those (in mixes with other OS) ones you select from MY lists... & YOU'RE STILL MILES BEHIND!)

APK

P.S.=> You FAIL yet again, trolls, lol!

Mainly since anyone's free to check them here again & see what I noted (MS stuff in operations sometimes in a "mix" but there, nonetheless)

---

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.pace.edu
F5 BIG-IP Apache/2.2.3 (Red Hat) 28-Sep-2012 198.105.44.27 Pace University

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.ucsc.edu
Linux Apache 28-Sep-2012 128.114.109.5 University of California, Santa Cruz

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.mbc.edu
Linux Apache/2.2.3 (Red Hat) 28-Sep-2012 72.32.6.118 Rackspace Hosting

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.lynchburg.edu
Linux nginx/1.0.15 28-Sep-2012 50.56.4.21 Cloud Loadbalancing as a Service-LBaaS (DFW)

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.uncc.edu
Linux Apache 28-Sep-2012 152.15.219.131 University of North Carolina at Charlotte

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.umt.edu
Linux Apache 28-Sep-2012 150.131.194.46 University of Montana

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=spalding.edu
Linux Apache 13-Sep-2012 216.135.72.163 BLUEGRASS.NET

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.biola.edu
Linux nginx 28-Sep-2012 199.19.144.31 Biola University, Inc.

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.immaculata.edu
Linux Apache/2.0.52 (Red Hat) 28-Sep-2012 98.129.134.83 Immaculata University

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.tiu.edu
Linux Apache-Coyote/1.1 28-Sep-2012 38.126.15.210 PSINet, Inc.

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.trevecca.edu
Linux Apache 28-Sep-2012 174.129.33.200 Amazon.com, Inc.

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.trident.edu
Linux Apache/2.2.3 (CentOS) 14-Jan-2012 216.23.173.234 Jazel, LLC

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.canisius.edu
Linux Apache-Coyote/1.1 28-Sep-2012 138.92.8.121 Canisius College

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.bentley.edu
Linux nginx 28-Sep-2012 184.73.245.212 Amazon.com, Inc.

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.scranton.edu
Linux Apache/2.2.3 (Red Hat) 28-Sep-2012 134.198.4.83 University of Scranton

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.emerson.edu
unknown Apache/2.2.9 (Debian) PHP/5.2.6-1+lenny8 with Suhosin-Patch 28-Sep-2012 199.94.80.103 Level 3 Communications, Inc.

As to the REST of your list? LMAO... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

"Unsurprisingly, however, all of the highly regarded schools in the world run Linux:" - by docmordin (2654319) on Friday September 28, @12:34PM (#41489737)

Funny YOU OMITTED there were MICROSOFT SERVERS "in the mix" in the ones you cited @ the TOP of your "cherry picking" of my list!

E.G.-> In some I did NOTE that had "mix" in them of diff. OS &/or WebServers!

I.E.-> This is one you specifically omitted on that very account in fact -> Mary Baldwin College: Runs their domain on Windows (mix) -> http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.mbc.edu

(Not only THAT - but again: Your examples show you're STILL MILES BEHIND in terms of examples, & there are CERTAINLY Windows Servers out there, by the droves, providing services & "infrastructure"... period!

---

"As an aside, most of these places I hadn't even heard of and can't be considered as top ranked." - by docmordin (2654319) on Friday September 28, @12:34PM (#41489737)

I didn't DO the rankings, my sources did... I merely used them as data & yes, my cited servers/sites from the worlds of business AND academia, all ran Windows (sometimes in a "mix" but Microsoft products are THERE, nonetheless!).

Once more - FUNNY YOU OMITTED THAT WINDOWS RUNS ON THOSE SITES TOO, eh? Not... lol!

APK

P.S.=> Face it - YOU FAIL, and you know it, I know it, & now? Everyone else READING knows it...

... apk

Re:Hint: The answers are all no

[jonbryce]

Apple are not a convicted monopolist. Microsoft are. The only market that Apple could conceivably be considered to have a monopoly in is the tablet market, and I don't think charges would stick there. They initially had 100% of the market because they invented[*] it, but Android tablets are getting increasing market share.

[*] Yes I know there were tablets before the iPad, but none of them were anything like as popular as it, because they weren't anything like as good, or as cheap.

Re:Hint: The answers are all no

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple sells hardware, software, applications and services. Controlling all aspects of the computing, phone and digital entertainment experience of their customers. They have strict control over what software is even allowed to run on their devices, a situation MS could only have dreamed of.

If you don't think that Apple and MS are in competition then you are dumb beyond belief.

Re:Hint: The answers are all no

[Zero__Kelvin]

"If you don't think that Apple and MS are in competition then you are dumb beyond belief."

We are talking about personal computer Operating Systems here. I forget. What Operating System does Apple sell that runs on non-Apple hardware again?

Re:Hint: The answers are all no

[mcgrew]

I'm confused why Apple isn't being sued for the exact same kind of behaviour with their products and ecosystem.

Because Microsoft has a monopoly on desktop OSes, something like 90%. Apple has no monopoly in any space, for every iPhone sold, there are two Android phones sold. If MS did this with phones they'd be off the hook, because they have no monopoly in that market.

Re:Hint: The answers are all no

[gsgriffin]

This is what I see. So I guess MS wouldn't have problems doing exactly what they do if everybody wasn't buying their product. It's their fault so many people want to buy their product. OR, if they simply produced expensive hardware and locked down their operating system to only run on their hardware so you had to buy both from them, again it wouldn't be a problem. OR, if Apple had most of the market today (what they hope for in the future), would the Fanbois be able to look so popular or would they be promoting a monopolistic, big-brother, controlling and manipulative company?

Considering I dusted Ash-Fox 3x this week?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Yeah, he sort of defines monomania, doesn't he." - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Friday September 28, @04:16PM (#41493121) Homepage

1st: Quit "projecting" your own issues onto myself, ok?

2nd: LMAO to that from you, OR Ash-Fox:

http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3149609&cid=41488325

* So much for THAT from you (or Ash-Fox), since you both "blew it" badly vs. myself... & in Ash-Fox's case, 3 times this past week or so alone!

(Facts I used prove neither of you, or anyone else here for that matter, seems to be able to decisively disprove!)

3rd, & lastly: Quit trying to play The "SiDeWaLk-'ShRiNk' of /.", chump!

Face it - you aren't qualified via a PhD in the psychiatric sciences, a license to practice said sciences, NOR a formal examination of myself given in a PROFESSIONAL Psychiatric environs by pros in that field (which YOU clearly, are not).

APK

P.S.=> Which is the "secret" to how I always "spank" you trolls - you're unable to disprove facts, & facts? NUKE trolls, every single time!

Of course - you're also DOUBTLESS a "sockpuppet" alter-ego/alternate registered 'luser' account of Ash-Fox's as well, so... That puny trick doesn't "fool us" either, with YOU "suddenly appearing" to 'defend' (failing to do so with your off-topic trollery) Ash-Fox - lol, yea "right" (bit obvious that)

... apk

Re:Considering I dusted Ash-Fox 3x this week?

[Zontar The Mindless]

It's easy to care about winning a contest in which you're the only contestant, isn't it.

Re:Considering I dusted Ash-Fox 3x this week?

[Ash-Fox]

He's so tense about all of this, it's amazing.

Re:Considering I dusted Ash-Fox 3x this week?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3149609&cid=41488325

Re:Considering I dusted Ash-Fox 3x this week?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3149609&cid=41493521

Take your own advice troll

[Anonymous Coward]

"(Proptip: If you've nothing useful to say... Don't say it!)" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Sunday September 23, @02:50AM (#41426397) Homepage

FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3136939&cid=41426397

See subject-line, & next? I'll quote what the person you replied to told you too (since it mirrors my subject above):

"You assume I was talking to you. I suggest you follow your own advice." - by divisionbyzero (300681) on Sunday September 23, @10:41AM (#41428087)

FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3136939&cid=41428087

Which is EXACTLY what I said to you in my subject-line above, troll...

APK

P.S.=> It's FAIRLY OBVIOUS you MUST be a "registered 'luser'" alternate account/sockpuppet for Ash-Fox, because I blew him CLEAN AWAY 3x this week alone, already (lmao) -> http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3149609&cid=41488325

... apk

Re:Take your own advice troll

[Zontar The Mindless]

I'm a sockpuppet that he created 4 or 5 years before his 'real' account, all so he could bait you with it a decade or so after creating 'Ash-Fox', right.

I kinda like that theory.

Maybe I should update my sig and let everyone else in on the fun.

Re:Take your own advice troll

[Zontar The Mindless]

Actually, after giving this some thought, fuelled with some soothing green tea with mandarin orange, I'd like to change my mind.

Can I be a sockpuppet for this guy, instead?

Thanks!

Re:Take your own advice troll

[Anonymous Coward]

http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3149609&cid=41493765

Re:Take your own advice troll

[Anonymous Coward]

http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3149609&cid=41493765

Re:Hint: The answers are all no

[Zero__Kelvin]

"So I guess MS wouldn't have problems doing exactly what they do if everybody wasn't buying their product."

This is somewhat besides the point since your point is a red herring, but as a matter of fact everybody is buying their product regardless of if they want it or not. I have paid the M$ tax time and again on hardware that I purchased and then immediately installed Linux on. Repeat this 100 times. Microsft doesn't sell hardware. Microsoft doesn't sell hardware. Microsoft doesn't sell hardware ...

"if they simply produced expensive hardware and locked down their operating system to only run on their hardware so you had to buy both from them, again it wouldn't be a problem. "

Perhaps you have heard of the XBox? And yes, a million times yes. You are starting to get it. If Microsoft actually produced a computer that was worth owning they could ship their OS with whatever applications they want pre-installed. What they couldn't do is make their applications exclusive, thereby locking out competing applications. You still don't seem to understand the difference between an Application and an OS, or between hardware and software for that matter. Also, Apple doesn't force you to use Safari for anything, nor do they have a search engine that they are jamming down peoples throats. You can just use this, for example.

"would the Fanbois be able to look so popular "

When you call people who are willing to pay extra for an excellent computer that comes with an OS that anyone but a moron would agree is a far, far superior product, you just sound like said moron.

Re:Now what about windows and mac app stores with

[shutdown -p now]

Once anyone has a monopoly on those kinds of systems, you would likely be able to sue them over store policies due to monopoly abuse.