Brown Signs California Bill For Free Textbooks

So... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 09:53 · Score: 0

Is this actually going to do anything to hurt the textbook racket?

Re:So... by nurb432 · 2012-09-28 10:17 · Score: 1

Not even a blip. Its 'optional' to use them. Publishers and professors will continue the scam they are running for the foreseeable future.

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---- Booth was a patriot ----
Re:So... by kilodelta · 2012-09-28 10:29 · Score: 1

I'm not so sure about that. If they can actually produce a QUALITY textbook there should be no reason to use 3rd party books at all.
Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 10:39 · Score: 1

What 3rd party? Half the time, the professor wrote the book in the first place, the other half the publisher provides kickbacks.
Re:So... by lpress · 2012-10-03 14:54 · Score: 1

A very small percent of professors are using books they have written and I have been a professor for many years and have never been offered a kickback and or heard of anyone getting such an offer.

Really? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 09:55 · Score: 0

Unless it's coming out of his pocket, it's probably coming out of ours.

Free indeed...

Re:Really? by arth1 · 2012-09-28 10:08 · Score: 5, Insightful

It will be a one-time cost for writing or converting the books, and a small yearly cost of updating them, instead of a yearly high cost for buying them from Texas. It is going to save quite a lot of money, but I'm sure the Book Mafia will successfully lobby this out of existence.
Re:Really? by maxdread · 2012-09-28 10:32 · Score: 3, Insightful

They don't even need to lobby it, most professors simply won't switch to them for any of their classes. Publishers offer far too many incentives that make the professors job easier while also helping to tie them down to that publisher.
Re:Really? by arth1 · 2012-09-28 12:23 · Score: 3, Insightful

You obviously don't think things through. Tea party?
First of all, the State of California buys an awful lot of those expensive textbooks, and would reap the savings almost immediately.
Secondly, if it makes education less expensive, it will likely lead to more educated people. People who can afford to pay taxes and your social security.
Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 12:52 · Score: 0

What's all this fear over Social Security?

The Government owns a printing press, and the right to run it. They can and will pay for whatever they want to.

Its been that way ever since this political system was instantiated.

Here we go again, Brown signing off yet on more things, while simultaneously threatening all sorts of bad things to happen to the schools if his tax increase on the ballot does not pass. The citizens have yet to use the referendum and vote process to place politician's jobs and retirements in jeopardy when the budget won't balance.

Are we still a country of the people, by the people, for the people? I think not. Its rapidly becoming an organized mafia-style protection racket where the common citizen pays whatever the warlord exacts, or armed men will show up and take everything he has.
Re:Really? by Widowwolf · 2012-09-28 13:01 · Score: 1

The citizens have yet to use the referendum and vote process to place politician's jobs and retirements in jeopardy when the budget won't balance. Really May i give you Ex Governor Gray Davis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_Davis

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~~"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~~Dennis Miller
Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 14:13 · Score: 1

most professors simply won't switch to them for any of their classes. Publishers offer far too many incentives that make the professors job easier while also helping to tie them down to that publisher.
May I inquire WTF you are talking about??
I _am_ a professor at an accredited 4-year University, and the biggest incentive I get is a free book for review (that is nice, but hardly mind-bending). There are no kickbacks, incentives or anything of the sort.
Perhaps if one had assigned their own book (I haven't written any), but certainly not for any book.
Re:Really? by BooMonster · 2012-09-28 15:12 · Score: 1

At larger state schools, many teachers write their own books, update them every two years, and mandate their use in their class.
Re:Really? by mspohr · 2012-09-28 16:24 · Score: 2

Most professors don't write their own textbooks. A few do.
I think that in my entire time in college and graduate school, I only had two professors with their own books. One of these was a workbook and was cheap.
My wife is a college professor and constantly whinges about the high cost of textbooks. She would love to have free textbooks (and so would everyone in her department... none of them have written textbooks.

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Re:Really? by Half-pint+HAL · 2012-09-28 21:42 · Score: 1

In my university (Edinburgh, Scotland), I was in classes several classes where the lecturer had written the book. I could have cried "scam" -- or I could feel privileged that I was studying with genuinely world-class scholars. Perhaps it's different in the US? Except, no, it can't be, because one of my lecturers (OO software design) apologised that her book was written in US English, not UK English, because there was a bigger market for it in the US than the UK. It seems like lots of US professors were using her textbook... because it was the best thing on the market.

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Re:Really? by Half-pint+HAL · 2012-09-28 21:47 · Score: 1

It's called "economy of scale". The state of California as a corporate body has far more bargaining power than an individual student. This means they can set the price they pay. The cost to them will be significantly lower than the total cost of individual purchases. For the author it's better too, because there's a guaranteed, pre-negotiated price as work-for-hire, rather than the uncertainty of royalties depending on uptake by the universities. The only people it's bad for are academic publishing companies, and given some of their antics, I'm not going to lose sleep over a publishing mogul buying one less ivory back-scratcher come Christmas....

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Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
Re:Really? by gtall · 2012-09-29 03:35 · Score: 1

Son, you have no understanding of the U.S. monetary system. The federal reserve can increase the money supply, they are an independent agency, independent of the other three branches. However, they are constrained in how much they can ease the money supply. Beyond a certain level, it creates an inflation and the fed is has two mandates, keep inflation low and keep employment high.
Social security is a trust fund...kind of. The U.S. government is not allowed to "store" money in a trust fund and you wouldn't want them to because it would be sucking money out of the economy. So the rest of the government writes IOUs to spend the money you and your employer send in for SS. Remember that eye-watering number known as the federal debt? The really BIG number? Well, consider that your SS trust fund. What, you say, you mean the government hasn't been squirreling away our SS money under a giant mattress? No, young Grasshopper, it's been spending it like a drunken sailor. You have approximately squat...well, actually negative squat since you and the rest of us are on the hook for that money.
And where will a good chunk of that money go to when we finally cough it up? Why, the Me Generation. It turns out the Me Generation has also been spending like drunken sailors and not saving for retirement. So the Blue Hairs will be demanding their cut which will turn out to be several times more than they ever paid in. Are you going to tell Granny she can't have yours? Do you want to make her day? She can come to live with you since you won't be able to afford the lifestyle to which she has become accustomed and will demand the government provide.
And before you get all highly outraged over whatever you are referring to as the mafia-style protection racket, let us not forget that you, Grasshopper, have helped spend America into the toilet. Now stop whining, gird your loins, and start paying for all those government benefits you have been demanding your congress guy/gal produce for "the people". Oh, and stop thinking you are going to take it out of the military. They only get 3 percent or less of GDP and less than a 1/3 of the budget. The rest of the discretionary spending (total disc. sp. is about 1/3 of the budget) covers neat things like NIH, FAA, etc., the part of the government that works. The other 2/3 covers Entitlements. You believe in those, right? The ones that are about to explode in cost because the Me Generation is starting to retire in droves. And if you think of taking all the military's funding, you still are about $400-500 Billion short of covering this years deficit, so you won't be paying down the debt with it either.
Grasshopper, so young, so pointy-headed, so innocent. Grow the fuck up.
Re:Really? by leereyno · 2012-09-29 21:36 · Score: 1

Other than the differences between elevators and lifts, hoods and bonnets, trunks and boots, trucks and lorries, station wagons and estate cars, shopping carts and trollies, and of course fish sticks and fish fingers, I'm not sure why US english would be difficult for UK speakers to deal with. Spellings can be different also of course, color vs colour, defense vs defence, etc, etc. But people still know what the words mean.
My ex is british and I spent a fair bit of time over there. I saw almost as much American programming on the TV (or telly) as I did native brit programming.
Your professor was silly to apologize as Brits are far more familiar with US English than we yanks are with UK English here across the pond.

--
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
Re:Really? by Half-pint+HAL · 2012-09-30 03:42 · Score: 1

Actually, before the internet hit the mainstream we were only really familiar with spoken US English -- not that many of us read in US English. Reading US English still often jars a little with me, and though you don't normally notice it in plain written prose, it can be quite marked when you're watching a film subtitled in US English. Even little things like a single L in "traveling" can be enough to break the flow of reading for me.

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Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
Re:Really? by bcrowell · 2012-10-01 12:57 · Score: 1

First of all, the State of California buys an awful lot of those expensive textbooks, and would reap the savings almost immediately.
This would apply more to K-12 than to college, since college students pay for their own books. Schwarzenegger had a K-12 free textbook initiative similar to this, but it seems to have failed.

Secondly, if it makes education less expensive, it will likely lead to more educated people. People who can afford to pay taxes and your social security.
This may or may not be true. I don't think it's at all self-evident. There is a new book out, Someone Has to Fail: The Zero-Sum Game of Public Schooling, by David F. Labaree. I haven't read the book, but there is a review in The Atlantic: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/09/cover-to-cover/309071/ . According to the review, Labaree argues that you can't use the public education system to promote equality, because the families that consume education are motivated by the desire to get ahead of other families. This suggests that educating more people will not lead to a greater number of affluent people who pay taxes, but will instead simply lead to more highly educated people doing the same jobs that used to be done by less educated people. I certainly see this at the community college where I teach. Nurses need bachelor's degrees now to be marketable, whereas they used to be fine with an AA degree. Physical therapists need graduate degrees (a DPT) for jobs that are shockingly low-paying.
Although the cost of textbooks is scandalously high, and extremely exploitative, I don't believe that their high costs reduces the number of people getting college educations. At the California community college where I teach, the bottleneck is that due to state budget cuts, not enough classes are being offered in order to satisfy demand. At four-year schools, even state schools, tuition is so much more money than books that I really don't believe there are people making a decision not to go to college based on the cost of books. At the time when they're making that decision, they don't even have information about how much their books will cost.

--
Find free books.
Re:Really? by lpress · 2012-10-03 15:03 · Score: 1

You are assuming that the Creative Commons textbooks will not include the same sorts of question banks, PowerPoint slides, and other extras that make them easy to use as those from commercial publishers, If that is the case, you are right -- most professors are busy and unwilling to spend extra time on teaching -- but it may not be the case. If by "incentives" you are thinking of bribes or kickbacks, you are either misinformed or paranoid.
Re:Really? by maxdread · 2012-10-04 12:56 · Score: 1

No not bribes in any sort of monetary form, that would probably create too large of an outcry if it happened and was provable.
People may very well create the associated content for those books but unless the frame work for it is in the bill, good luck getting such extra content adopted by professors/universities/community colleges. Having pre-made tests/quizzes/homework available would be great but there is also the extra work of putting it in a format easily incorporated into existing front end systems. How easy would it be to import something like that into say, Blackboard?
Not to mention needing proper outside verification that the material is accurate and helpful.
Where as all of the above is already provided by publishers of existing text books, it's a long steep uphill battle to get these books adopted by professors.
Re:Really? by lpress · 2012-10-04 15:38 · Score: 1

The bill sets up a council of 9 faculty (from CSU, UC and Community Colleges) and they will be responsible for acquiring the books. If they acquire crappy books, faculty will not adopt them. If they do not offer enough to authors to entice them to produce typical ancillary material, faculty will not adopt them. The funds have not yet been allocated and I have no idea whether or not they will be sufficient to attact good, complete books. We will see. More detail at: http://cis471.blogspot.com/2012/10/governor-brown-signs-california-open_1.html.

..and... by raydobbs · 2012-09-28 09:56 · Score: 4, Informative

"Faculty would not be required to use the free books"

With this one phrase, the entire idea is rendered useless. Why bother with free textbooks for college level classes if no college will offer classes that use them for coursework? The state will pay for the development, sure... like California can really pay for anything else...

Re:..and... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 10:05 · Score: 2, Informative

I'm sure lots of community colleges will love to use them, especially since the license allows them to tailor it for their own classes. That will likely translate into the textbooks used at larger schools, since faculty at a big Uni will sometimes moonlight at a community college. Also, the students can download the books for free, which makes it a lot more portable, and cheaper for the students.
All we need now is an inexpensive printing press so they can be produced on-demand for students that want a paper version
Re:..and... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 10:09 · Score: 2, Informative

Okay, so first off, you're saying the government should ban all college textbooks except the ones they write? No potential issues spring to mind?
And second, why WOULDN'T professors want to use the free texts? Believe it or not they actually don't get kickbacks for choosing a particular book (I say this as a college instructor who chooses textbooks regularly). Do you think they're making kids pay $200 out of spite? No, they're doing it because you need a textbook if you're going to teach something like Intro Calculus, and the big textbook publishers make new editions every year with just enough changes so the answers keys only work for a particular edition, so you either make the whole class buy the newest edition or make the whole class buy an OLD edition by scraping around bookstores and AbeBooks.
Re:..and... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 10:17 · Score: 0

It's a dead in the water waste of time to prop up the Dems on election season if you ask me. I went to Cal State and a community college; and I can tell yo that all the books we used are either written by one of the professors, or one of the professor's thesis adviser or friend. I heard the line "let em email the author about that" a lot.
Re:..and... by Kenja · 2012-09-28 10:31 · Score: 1

From my experience, the community colleges are the ones that require the student to use the book the teacher wrote and self publishes.

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"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
Re:..and... by Githaron · 2012-09-28 10:36 · Score: 1

I have heard about on-demand book printing kiosks that print and bind books for you.
Re:..and... by maxdread · 2012-09-28 10:37 · Score: 2

Only if someone is going to step up to the plate and start doing automated testing software based on these books as well. Last couple classes I took required that you take the tests/quizes on the publishers website (which btw if you bought a used book, you get to spend $40 for access) since it freed up the teacher from having to go over any of the work.
Re:..and... by Githaron · 2012-09-28 10:38 · Score: 1

Professors might want to use the free books but the colleges/universities might not. They can't get a cut from the bookstore if the bookstore doesn't sell any books.
Re:..and... by maxdread · 2012-09-28 10:40 · Score: 1

While they may not offer financial incentives, they offer numerous tools that automate/simply the job of a professor. The last business class I took required practically zero effort on the part of the professor. Without a similar system in place for these free editions, professors are going to be far less likely to make the switch.
Re:..and... by DragonWriter · 2012-09-28 10:55 · Score: 1

Professors might want to use the free books but the colleges/universities might not. They can't get a cut from the bookstore if the bookstore doesn't sell any books.
Open source -- which, not "free" in the sense of free-of-charge -- books don't stop the bookstore from selling printed copies, or even from doing so at a profit.
Re:..and... by bcrowell · 2012-09-28 10:56 · Score: 4, Informative

With this one phrase, the entire idea is rendered useless. Why bother with free textbooks for college level classes if no college will offer classes that use them for coursework?
I think this is a little too pessimistic. A lot of free books already exist, and a lot of faculty are already using them. See my sig for a catalog that includes several hundred examples. The books that are actively in use for instruction tend to highly "top-heavy," i.e., there's a ton of free graduate texts, not as many college ones, few high school ones, and almost no K-8 books.
The teacher's privilege of choosing what book to use is an important part of academic freedom in higher education. The lack of choice by teachers is part of what makes K-12 textbooks suck so much. K-12 books are written by a committee and sold to a commitee, based on criteria such as whether they show pictures of disabled kids doing math.
My own experience as the author of some free physics textbooks is that teachers' ability to choose the book they want is a huge positive factor in getting people to use my books. I currently have about 30-40 college adoptions and about 30-40 high school adoptions. (There's no way for me to know exact numbers, because the books are free.) Of those high school adoptions, nearly all are from private schools (mostly Catholic schools). The reason isn't hard to guess. K-12 textbook selection in public schools is highly political and bureaucratic. A high school physics teacher at a public school can't simply choose whatever book he wants.

--
Find free books.
Re:..and... by bcrowell · 2012-09-28 11:58 · Score: 1

Professors might want to use the free books but the colleges/universities might not. They can't get a cut from the bookstore if the bookstore doesn't sell any books.
College administrators don't make decisions on what textbook to adopt. Professors do.

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Find free books.
Re:..and... by mattack2 · 2012-09-28 13:27 · Score: 1

Why should they be REQUIRED to use the free books?
Having the free books is a good idea (though having to sign a law for this seems extreme). What if one of the for pay books actually has better information/teaching methods?
I suspect they will gravitate to the free books _if they are sufficiently useful_. Probably more for "lower level" classes.
Way back in college, for elective classes, at least one class' book was one of the college printer's books filled with short sections of other books.. So it was much cheaper.
Re:..and... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 13:55 · Score: 0

Last couple classes I took required that you take the tests/quizes on the publishers website (which btw if you bought a used book, you get to spend $40 for access) since it freed up the teacher from having to go over any of the work.
Or you could go to a better place/teacher to take courses!
I would _never_ do that to my students. Without me looking over their homework (even if the grader did the first pass), what's the benefit of having me as the prof? You can find decent recorded lectures on any subject.
Re:..and... by spire3661 · 2012-09-28 14:26 · Score: 2

Mathematics is one course that absolutely should have free open source textbooks made for it and be REQUIRED to teach from. This would save the students an incredible amount of money and you can be sure the information isnt going to become dated any time soon. Even the 'construction files' that layout the book should be available and open source so the book can be re-arranged, new pictures inserted, customization etc.

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Good-bye
Re:..and... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 14:45 · Score: 0

I believe you mean department chairs do.
Re:..and... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 14:59 · Score: 1

Out of forty hours at CC, only one teacher published books (Dr. of English) but didn't use them for classes, almost every teacher except one would let me use older/cheaper editions of textbooks. In one case I got a 140$ botany text for eight dollars on half.com.. The final teacher made you have the latest edition.
Re:..and... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 15:52 · Score: 0

I can't speak for all subjects and all schools, but the self published ones in math that I have seen are designed to keep costs down. While giving a talk at U. Louisville last spring, the department was making plans to produce something along these lines with the goal of having a $40-45 textbook rather than the $80-90 or higher norm for some form of algebra - college or developmental, I forget which.
Re:..and... by rtb61 · 2012-09-28 15:59 · Score: 1

At the very least a please explain why should be mandated. So use the free book or provide substantive reasons why a high cost printed text book is required. Explanation to be made public and to be reviewed by an educators board. This to block greedy professors and of course to promote worthwhile updates to the free texts.

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Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
Re:..and... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 16:00 · Score: 0

This already exists in the form of the MAA's WebWork. The addition of a UC/CSU/etc. course might prompt some tailoring of problem libraries and they need server(s) to run it on, but the heavy lifting has already been done. See http://webwork.maa.org/intro.html for more info.
Re:..and... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 16:07 · Score: 1

Wait a second! Your gripe is that the answer keys changes You claim to be a college instructor. Are you not qualified to write your own tests?
Re:..and... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 16:09 · Score: 0

Also, the reason for large markups and the used book swindle is that the bookstores are horribly inefficient by the standards of conventional retail - they do most of their sales in two weeks each semester, but have to have staff throughout the year. Similarly, they are required to maintain large inventory to ensure availability of course texts to start the semester, but any remainders sit around until the next semester. Just think about that inventory when there is an edition change. Textbook stores and faculty hate the edition turnover just as much as as students.
Re:..and... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 16:20 · Score: 0

For Math/Science courses, this already exists - WebWork from the MAA and supported by NSF. Alternatively, WebAssign and others that make software that support textbooks would jump at a large market like this - assuming there is no barrier to other schools adopting it, there is no reason that the Calculus sequence wouldn't quickly match Stewart and the other popular sequences and they would love to sell $50 access passes for them (not ideal, but still cheaper than the $150 or so for text+web).
Re:..and... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 16:32 · Score: 0

Transfer credits not withstanding, the calculus courses at different institutions are different and may have different needs for course texts - the honors version at Berkeley probably differs significantly from the average community college one for instance. While textbooks can support differing courses, it is asking a lot to have a book that is technical enough for the one and accessible enough for the other. Ideally, they will aim for something that can support the average calculus section in the system, but REQUIRING it ties the hands in edge cases.
Re:..and... by Arterion · 2012-09-28 17:36 · Score: 2

I'm currently a college student, and many of my professors are sensitive to textbook prices. One in particular, for computer science, refused to make us buy a textbook (because they were a rip off), and instead provided his own materials on his website. For general physics, there were also modules online, and our professor said the textbook was optional, and suggested we buy and older edition if we wanted one, to save money. My differential equations professor provided homework assignments for both the current AND previous edition of the textbook, so that students could save money buying a used copy of the old one. Probability and statistics professor made the textbook "optional" and provided his own lecture materials -- he said he had to include the textbook because the department made him, but he wasn't going to use it, so he made it optional. Several professors have chosen their textbook based on price: when there were several reasonable options, they picked the one that was cheapest. The only times I can recall having to get a new, expensive textbook was when it was required at the departmental level.
My anecdotal experience is that while university bureaucrats may indeed have reasons for wanting to continue the textbook extortion, professors are usually very sympathetic to students. Less money in students pockets = more stress (more hours working, deciding what sacrifices to make) = harder time with academics.
I attend the University of Tennessee in Knoxville, btw. Very large public university.

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"That which does not kill us makes us stranger." -Trevor Goodchild
Re:..and... by davester666 · 2012-09-28 17:41 · Score: 1

Why the fuck is this happening for community college instead of say, grades 1-12, which only have an order of magnitude more students and have limited budgets for books.
And yes, this has nothing to do with the parent post.

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Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
Re:..and... by rujholla · 2012-09-28 18:15 · Score: 1

I don't know that is true, something low level like Algebra or Calculus would be fairly standard even the honors version. My honors math classes used the same texts as the normal classes, but the professors had us doing lots of proofs etc beyond what would be expected from a normal level class.
Re:..and... by Half-pint+HAL · 2012-09-28 22:02 · Score: 1

At Edinburgh University, in my day, there was 5 or 6 different first and second year maths streams. One for the maths students, one for the science students, one for the engineering students, one for the computer science students and one for the students of numerically-inclined social science (economics etc). The content was substantially different. A textbook that covered them all sufficiently would have been massive.
But then again, there was no compulsory set text -- our lecturers and tutors taught us everything we needed to know in class. (Now there's a revolutionary idea....)

--
Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
Re:..and... by kelemvor4 · 2012-09-29 02:27 · Score: 1

Why the fuck is this happening for community college instead of say, grades 1-12, which only have an order of magnitude more students and have limited budgets for books.
And yes, this has nothing to do with the parent post.
According to TFS, that was already attempted and it failed for some reason.
Re:..and... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-29 04:22 · Score: 0

As the Cubans, Chinese, Russians, and scores of socialist will tell you, government control of the books is a good, not a bad.
Re:..and... by spire3661 · 2012-09-29 05:43 · Score: 1

Thats why you build a 'master' e-book for all the streams and keep the pre-production files available so that the material can be re-mixed as needed. Its not a stretch to imagine asking a college level professor to assemble the appropriate modules for his course, packaging them into an ebook and distributing it via the school network. My professors do this now for everything BUT the book in my Comp Sci courses. I would like to add i imagined an ebook only model. E-readers are now a fraction of the cost of books, they are truly a viable alternative.

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Good-bye
Re:..and... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-29 07:50 · Score: 0

I'm a new grad student in the math department at UC Riverside. I'm leading a discussion section for differential calculus and giving lectures to a precalculus class. For the calculus class, the school swtiched to a free online book a couple years back, and it's absolutely dreadful, but it shows the school's willingness to ease the students' financial burden. The precalc book is good but >$100 for students (the university gets copies of the instructor edition for free, which was good for me but feels like a really sleazy practice on the publisher's part). I can say with reasonable certainty that if these books end up being free and high-quality, the UCR math department will use them.
Re:..and... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-29 09:31 · Score: 0

I don't think that will be necessary. Most likely, the professors will receive enough pressure from the students themselves to make the free texts the most common option.

why does free have to be funded? by magarity · 2012-09-28 09:59 · Score: 2

It doesn't become active until the legislature funds it? How free is that? Perhaps some experts on the subjects in question could volunteer time to write intro level textbooks (with the idea of writing advanced books for sale)? That would be "free". Seriously, the use of the word free is much abused lately, much like spending cuts have long since meant less increases in spending.

Re:why does free have to be funded? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 10:04 · Score: 0

> Perhaps some experts on the subjects in question could volunteer time to write intro level textbooks
It takes a lot of time to write a good textbook. Why would I, as an expert who's time is in demand, do it for free?
Re:why does free have to be funded? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 10:11 · Score: 0

It's free to the end-user, not free to create.
Why? Because you're not going to get professional-level copy and proofing for free. Would YOU write and revise 1500 high-level calculus homework questions with painstaking precision just out of a sense of public-mindedness?
Re:why does free have to be funded? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 10:12 · Score: 2, Informative

It takes a lot of time to write a good textbook. Why would I, as an expert who's time is in demand, do it for free?
One would think that an expert would know the difference between who's and whose.
Bring on the non-experts, I say.
Re:why does free have to be funded? by magarity · 2012-09-28 10:33 · Score: 1

Tell it to the people running Khan Academy.
Re:why does free have to be funded? by Githaron · 2012-09-28 10:40 · Score: 2

One of my professors took a sabbatical to write an electronics book for one of his classes. He released it under the Creative Commons. I am sure he is not the only professional out there willing to write free books.
Re:why does free have to be funded? by DragonWriter · 2012-09-28 10:45 · Score: 2

why does free have to be funded?

Because "free" in the sense means "libre", not "gratis".
Actually, the new law doesn't say "free" at all, it says "open source" in general, and specifies the exact requirement as that the material be licensed under:

a creative commons attribution license that allows others to use, distribute, and create derivative works based upon the digital material while still allowing the authors or creators to receive credit for their efforts.

(Cal.Ed.Code, Sec. 66409(f)(1), as added by SB 1052.)

How free is that?
Exactly as "free" as is mandated by the required licensing conditions.
Re:why does free have to be funded? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 11:02 · Score: 0

A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.

I'm not saying that give everything away. But when you've secured enough (a fairly subjective term, I concur), give back.
Re:why does free have to be funded? by DragonWriter · 2012-09-28 11:15 · Score: 1

It's free to the end-user, not free to create.
Why? Because you're not going to get professional-level copy and proofing for free.
And, even if you were, you probably wouldn't be able to verify that the books "conform to the most
current, ratified standards under Section 508 of the federal Rehabilitation Act of 1973 (29 U.S.C. Sec. 794d), as amended, and the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines adopted by the
World Wide Web Consortium for accessibility" without spending some money. Which the law at issue requires of the open source (not free) text books that it authorizes the State to acquire.
Re:why does free have to be funded? by RabidReindeer · 2012-09-28 12:08 · Score: 2

It takes a lot of time to write a good textbook. Why would I, as an expert who's time is in demand, do it for free?
One would think that an expert would know the difference between who's and whose.
Bring on the non-experts, I say.

Obviously AC1 is not an academic expert. "Free" is what TA's and grad students are for.
A lot of professors accumulate a collection of teaching notes over their careers. Heck, I had a High School Physics teacher who did that. Handed them out with copyright notices on them.
Getting a collection of loose notes assembled into an actual usable textbook is not trivial, but one place you should expect to be able to find people with that kind of talent is an institution of higher learning. In some ways, it's better than a publishing house, when esoteric subject matter is involved.
Re:why does free have to be funded? by chrismcb · 2012-09-28 13:01 · Score: 1

If you have to pay $100 for one book, or $0 for another, I'm pretty sure you will claim that the $0 book is free.
Sure there was a cost involved with creating the book. The cost was time and or money or other resources. But to the poor starving college student, the only thing that matters is the actual cost of the book... In other words free.
Re:why does free have to be funded? by Half-pint+HAL · 2012-09-28 22:06 · Score: 1

So experts can't be dyslexic, or foreign, or even just normal human beings who make normal performance errors when writing in an informal situation?
If a high-energy physicist accidentally says "I's" once instead of "I'm" while eating a burger, should we suspend his license to operate a particle accelerator?

--
Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
Re:why does free have to be funded? by Half-pint+HAL · 2012-09-28 22:08 · Score: 2

Tell what to the people running Khan Academy? As far as I'm aware, Sal has never claimed that his personal choice to work pro bono is something everyone should adhere to. Some people are well-enough off to be able to work for free, others aren't. I got a free jar of jam from my landlord -- does that mean everyone else should be willing to make jam for free?

--
Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'

Seriously? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 10:00 · Score: 0

Where does California get all this money from, especially being almost $400B in debt.

Re:Seriously? by AK+Marc · 2012-09-28 10:11 · Score: 1, Informative

From the savings of lower education costs.

--
Learn to love Alaska
Re:Seriously? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 10:14 · Score: 0

They must have some money trees hidden somewhere -- didn't LA just approve the construction of a multi-billion dollar sport stadium this week?
The amount of delusion amongst the ruling class in California is staggering.
Re:Seriously? by Cinder6 · 2012-09-28 10:15 · Score: 4, Interesting

At least it should be cheaper and available sooner than the no-longer-bullet train we're supposedly getting in the next 30 years. Aw, who am I kidding?
Anyway, I'm currently attending a California city college, and I've attended state university before. In my experience, many professors (especially at the city college level, where average incomes are lower) are concerned about textbook prices. They put them in the library reserve for students to use, they allow you to use previous editions, and they'll even look for cheaper alternatives. My current professors also claim they do not receive commission for textbook sales, and that the school essentially breaks even on textbook sales once you consider the costs of running the bookstore.
In the past, many of my computer science courses had complimentary eBooks available online. This year, two of my classes have eBook versions available via CourseSmart which, while cheaper than physical textbooks, can't be used on dedicated eReaders (currently computer, iOS, and Android, with Android devices being limited somehow). They also have the issue of essentially being rentals instead of outright purchases--but still, it's better than nothing.
Finally, two professors I had a while back decided that the existing course books were too expensive, so they wrote their own books and sold them for $10 and $30. Yeah, they obviously get a commission there, but that's better than paying $150.
I imagine there are other schools that are much worse than my personal experiences, but it isn't all bad.

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If you can't convince them, convict them.
Re:Seriously? by nurb432 · 2012-09-28 10:19 · Score: 1

The next generation.

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---- Booth was a patriot ----
Re:Seriously? by Mashiki · 2012-09-28 10:47 · Score: 0

From the savings of lower education costs.
Robbing peter to pay paul does not result in lower education costs.

--
Om, nomnomnom...
Re:Seriously? by DragonWriter · 2012-09-28 11:01 · Score: 1

Where does California get all this money from, especially being almost $400B in debt.
Actually, over $617 billion as of August. And the same place the U.S. government gets money from, despite being $16 trillion dollars in debt.
Re:Seriously? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 12:05 · Score: 1

So what you're saying is California gets it's money from California, the same place the US government gets it.
Re:Seriously? by WhitePanther5000 · 2012-09-28 12:50 · Score: 1

Finally, two professors I had a while back decided that the existing course books were too expensive, so they wrote their own books and sold them for $10 and $30. Yeah, they obviously get a commission there, but that's better than paying $150.
If those are hard copies, it sounds like that basically just paid for the print and/or publication costs. Either way, it's a good deal. I had a professor who told us buying the official book was "optional" (aka not used), and uploaded his 400 pages of "notes" on his website, which we followed throughout the semester. I thought that was a pretty decent way to do it.
Re:Seriously? by Widowwolf · 2012-09-28 13:10 · Score: 1

Oh the one that is mostly paid for by Private funding, the one that would create thousands of jobs, and give back millions of dollars in taxes a year...yeah that one

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~~"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~~Dennis Miller
Re:Seriously? by lahvak · 2012-09-28 14:00 · Score: 1

Couple years ago, we outsourced our bookstore to Barnes and Noble, because we simply could not afford running it any more. We kept sinking money into it semester after semester. Large booksellers are better equipped to handle the "sell large amount of textbooks at the beginning of each semester and then keep the remaining copies around in a storage, sending the ones that will not be needed next semester back to the publisher, buying book back from students at the end of the semester, and getting ready for the new semester" cycle.
As far as professors writing their own course materials, that fairly common. Typically, these are sold for the cost of printing and binding. I have never seen a professor actually getting any money for these. The main problem is that it takes time, and at our college, with our teaching load, service, and need to keep current in the field, there is very little time for writing these. I have been working on a textbook like that for one of my classes for several years, and I am nowhere near finishing.

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AccountKiller
Re:Seriously? by pete6677 · 2012-09-28 17:38 · Score: 1

That is the usual line used by those promoting a major league sports stadium, but reality tells a different story. Pro sports hardly ever deliver the benefits that their backers promise, and in any case most cities just give any economic benefits right back to the team owners in the form of free stadiums and huge tax breaks.
Additionally, no NFL team has ever been successful in the LA area and none ever will be. What few NFL fans there are in LA are already die-hard fans of other teams. LA douchebags have Laker and Dodger games to see and be seen at; they don't need an NFL team.
This proves once and for all that there is no adult supervision in California government.
Re:Seriously? by BlueStrat · 2012-09-28 20:51 · Score: 1

From the savings of lower education costs.

Robbing peter to pay paul does not result in lower education costs.
But it makes things *appear* that way long enough to get (re)elected, especially when Peter hasn't been born yet and can't voice objections and Paul isn't bright enough or doesn't care enough to understand why any of it even matters or why they should care.
Strat

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Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
Re:Seriously? by AK+Marc · 2012-09-29 07:14 · Score: 1

Where the money came from is irrelevant to the total spent. Unless you are just some nutcase that likes to push the "taxes are robbery at gunpoint" stance every possible chance, even when irrelevant.

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Learn to love Alaska

They should do studies on 200$ laptops by GoodNewsJimDotCom · 2012-09-28 10:02 · Score: 1

200$ laptops even with replacements over the years are cheaper than 10,000$ in books for k-12.

They should do studies with some kids to see if they learn as good on a computer as a book.

Once this data is compiled, throw in some educational aps too, and you're probably beating what you can get on just books alone.

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God spoke to me

Noble ambition .. but by ackthpt · 2012-09-28 10:03 · Score: 1

I have a feeling the committee may strangle it, unless they are very carefully chosen as people who can work together.

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A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar

Countdown to lawsuit by Hatta · 2012-09-28 10:06 · Score: 4, Interesting

How long until the textbook industry sues California for unfair competition?

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Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!

Re:Countdown to lawsuit by arth1 · 2012-09-28 11:54 · Score: 1

How long until the textbook industry sues California for unfair competition?
I don't know - what time is it now?
Re:Countdown to lawsuit by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 12:48 · Score: 0

How long until the textbook industry sues California for unfair competition?
It's NOT an unfair competition, because free open source what ever, is not gaining financially. Plus the fact that a lot of schools, collages and universities students are now using free online courses, they have woke up to the fact that their over priced teaching methods are out dated,
Every house hold in America can have free open source education which is of an higher standard than whats being taught in schools, I have just be reading an article here on slashdot about the $99 Parallella supercomputer, but you know who will keep that out of the States like they have with the Raspberry Pi and others, because they can't control it and lock it down just to run their operating system only,
Re:Countdown to lawsuit by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 13:02 · Score: 0

How long until the textbook industry sues California for unfair competition?
That's like saying Microsoft are going to sue Linus Torvalds for unfair competition because he developed free Linux OS, stop being an idiot
Re:Countdown to lawsuit by Areyoukiddingme · 2012-09-28 17:09 · Score: 1

Exactly what do you think the SCO trial was?
Re:Countdown to lawsuit by Half-pint+HAL · 2012-09-28 22:36 · Score: 1

Urm... are you referring to the proceedings related to the "Unix" trademark or the proceedings claiming infringement of copyright on source code? Neither provides a useful analogue to this situation, so I'll assume there must have been another one I wasn't aware of....

--
Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
Re:Countdown to lawsuit by Areyoukiddingme · 2012-09-29 09:06 · Score: 1

The copyright infringement case. Which was a great whopping lie. Funded by Microsoft. Publicly known, but not publicly acknowledged. Suing Linux for being unfair competition. Come on, this isn't that hard. And no it's not a perfect analogy, but the anonymous coward was inventing a fairly stupid scenario in the first place. That's why my reply was only one line.

Funding not included, (Legislative) Assembly Rqd. by milbournosphere · 2012-09-28 10:06 · Score: 1

Sections 1 and 2 of this act shall become operative only if funding for the purposes of this act is provided in an appropriation in the annual Budget Act or another statute, or through federal or private funds, or through a combination of state, federal, and private funds.

Well, I had my hopes up for a second, anyway.

Dumb by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 10:08 · Score: 0

if I cant afford a $20 textbook, how can I afford a $60 internet bill for the e-books? Another Brown thought process.

Re:Dumb by Cinder6 · 2012-09-28 10:16 · Score: 1

Don't all colleges now include wifi access in the tuition price?

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If you can't convince them, convict them.
Re:Dumb by arth1 · 2012-09-28 10:17 · Score: 1

Glad you admit you're dumb. You have internet access at school. And you don't even need it - the teacher will surely have it available for direct download, to ensure that the students all get the book and the right one.
That is, if this would ever take off. It won't, because the Texan Book Mafia will never allow this to happen.
Re:Dumb by Zephyn · 2012-09-28 10:20 · Score: 1

Thought process #1: The cost of the average college textbook is closer to $200 than it is to $20.
Thought process #2: Lots of places these days offer this new-fangled thing called "Free Wifi". Ask your local Starbucks or McDonalds about it.
Re:Dumb by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 10:20 · Score: 0

This is the typical, one-step-ahead type of thinking demonstrated by Brown and his ilk.
Textbooks are expensive? Legislate that there shall be free books! Never mind the consequences of such an action, such as the impact on the quality of the resulting textbooks or how reduced sales will likely cause the existing textbook publishers to raise prices on their other prints.
These idiots are acting out the Springfield pigeon problem fix, except there will be no convenient cold snap that will cause the gorillas to freeze to death.
Re:Dumb by RackinFrackin · 2012-09-28 10:38 · Score: 1

Download it while you're at the university.
Re:Dumb by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · 2012-09-28 10:39 · Score: 1

if I cant afford a $20 textbook, how can I afford a $60 internet bill for the e-books? Another Brown thought process.
I've heard tales, from the very oldest days, of people transferring bits between computers on various forms of 'removable media'. Apparently, this curious custom does not require internet access!
Re:Dumb by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · 2012-09-28 10:41 · Score: 1

That, and the going rate for a 4GB flash drive(from somebody you've heard of, even, is about $6, less if you catch a sale). If you don't want the convenience of rewriteable media, an optical disk costs maybe a nickel or two.
Re:Dumb by lahvak · 2012-09-28 14:08 · Score: 1

such as the impact on the quality of the resulting textbooks
Yes, we definitely should stop this insanity right now! There is a chance that the textbooks thus produced will be of low quality! The humankind would definitely not be able to survive that!
Actually, I think we will survive just fine, considering that we are currently surviving a huge ammount of incredibly shitty textbooks from our major publishers.

--
AccountKiller

Free? by J'raxis · 2012-09-28 10:09 · Score: 1

If these are "free textbooks," why does the legislature have to fund it?

How about we be honest, eh? No one is providing "free" textbooks. No one is volunteering to create these things and give them away. The taxpayers will be forced to pay for these books rather than their actual users.

--
Liberty in your lifetime

Re:Free? by jmerlin · 2012-09-28 11:00 · Score: 1
This. I'm tired of the government subsidizing something and calling it "reform" or "free." The problem with textbooks isn't the price we have to pay, it's the price PERIOD. Shifting the burden on to taxpayers instead of individuals actually changes nothing. Real reform says to textbook manufacturers:
- You cannot re-release the same book as a "separate edition" just because you changed the questions at the end of each section or fixed a typo.
- You cannot bundle a textbook with online courseware that is not re-usable.
- You cannot sell a textbook used by an educational institution for more than double the price of the projected amortized cost of that book with an expected initial sale rate of 50,000 texts. Also, every penny of the cost to create that text must be completely publicly disclosed.
- You cannot offer "deals" such as providing coursework to professors and teachers in order to bribe them into using your texts. If your text sucks, it won't be used, make better texts, fucking idiots.
Something along those lines, and breaking any of those rules results in a $5,000 fine per individual textbook violating the above rules. That would effectively stop this price-gouging nonsense and we wouldn't need subsidies to provide "free texts" to students. They'd be able to afford a $30 book, especially if they could just buy one used by a student who took the same class last semester, and with knowledge that they could just sell that text to a student in the next class.

We also need reform of scientific articles/publications that students might find useful for research so that Universities aren't forced to pay exorbitant fees to provide their students with access to research that was funded by tax money in the first place. Elsevier, and others like them, should be forced to follow a similar guideline, or just outright banned for their incredibly stupid and unfair practices.

Further, government subsidized health insurance doesn't solve the problem. Now you're just funneling money from tax payers into insurance companies who continue to charge outlandish premiums justified by the outlandish (and unjustified) costs of just about every medical procedure, device, and/or drug. This country hasn't seen a real reform of anything since the 60s.
Re:Free? by skelly33 · 2012-09-28 11:24 · Score: 1

Shifting the burden on to taxpayers instead of individuals actually changes nothing.

Actually, I would submit that shifting the burden does change something in this case. I don't know about the state of affairs in other states, but the California community college school system is over-booked for enrollment, and severely under capitalized from state funding. If the College were to shift to free books for the students, the school would lose out on the revenue stream that comes from all those students marching into the campus book store to pick up their copy, further compounding the funding problem for the schools.

The one possible advantage I foresee here is that the books are NOT free to students, but are instead free to the schools. The schools can (and should) customize their digital copies of the materials to suit their needs. They then sell (low cost) digital copies to pick up their normal margin without the typical overhead, or hard copies either printed and bound on site (moderate cost) or farmed out to a professional (high cost) on low volume print runs. One interesting form factor I have seen is a 3-ring binder version of my Calculus book - students can carry the book a chapter at a time in their binder right along with their notes and not have to carry that 15 lb, 1200 page unabridged version with them all the time. The question is: would the schools be prepared to get into doing all that for themselves?
Re:Free? by fermion · 2012-09-28 11:30 · Score: 1

I know that many of /. readers have never really tried to create highly quality production level content, but it is really hard to do. College textbooks are really hard to produce because they must be highly rigorous but realize the student does not yet have the vocabulary or context.
Look around for introductory physics textbooks, for instance. I have seen some that are pretty good, but were made simply to say that a free textbook was available. There were none of the niceties one expects in a textbook made by a professional. No pride. but there a couple out there that are very good, and the existence of such books make me wonder why anyone would write another from scratch instead of using the creative commons to improve an existing book.
The funding, of course, is because people are going to be paid to write the books. After they are written, hopefully they will be under some copyleft licensee to insure they remain free to use. I imagine the cost can be minimized by using the massive number of professors to write the books. Perhaps they can be counted against publications for tenure, of fulfillment of post doc work. A single author writes each chapter, another develops the problem sets or essay questions.
What would be a shame is if these books were traditional books, and not integrated with other content. One of the most disappointing things about Khan is that it is just a hand on a board. No teaching just copying.

--
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
Re:Free? by DragonWriter · 2012-09-28 11:31 · Score: 1

I'm tired of the government subsidizing something and calling it "reform" or "free."

It is the media (e.g., the L.A. Times in TFA) calling it "free". The government, in the actual law, calls it "open source", which, given the specific license requirements in the law, is entirely accurate.

The problem with textbooks isn't the price we have to pay, it's the price PERIOD.

If you are interested in textbook reform other than the move to acquire some open source textbooks (California SB 1052 and SB 1053 of this past session), you should probably look at the other textbook reform measures that California has recently passed (e.g., SB 1539, Chapter 151, Statutes of 2012), or has under consideration (e.g., SB 1328.) Just because this measure is the subject of a Slashdot posting doesn't mean its the only thing that has been done on the issue.
Then I suggest you look at other
Re:Free? by DragonWriter · 2012-09-28 11:36 · Score: 1

If the College were to shift to free books for the students, the school would lose out on the revenue stream that comes from all those students marching into the campus book store to pick up their copy, further compounding the funding problem for the schools.
From what I've heard, that "revenue stream" generally goes to (1) pay publishers for the books, and (2) pay the operating costs of the book store, and doesn't actually return much of anything to the school.
Re:Free? by jmerlin · 2012-09-28 12:10 · Score: 1

The bill would require the council to establish a competitive request-for-proposal process in which faculty members, publishers, and other interested parties would apply for funds to produce, in 2013, 50 high-quality, affordable, digital open source textbooks and related materials, meeting specified requirements.
But really, just how "competitive" do any of these things every really turn out to be? I don't think it necessarily needs to be open source. It just needs to be of an acceptable quality (there are plenty of texts that are of an acceptable quality already), but the price gouging and repeat-sales tactics being used by the industry need to be severely punished and banned.
An alternative "option" is not very useful if it's an option. Many professors still use texts just because the company providing the text gives them a teacher's manual and course work so they don't have to do as much work. It's hard to provide those resources in an open-source book. I always found a good loophole to this whole gratuitous mess: I'd just go look at a book's references and find those texts. I had a compiler theory text in College that referred to Ullman's text at least 3 times each chapter, so I went and looked on Amazon and sure enough, I could get a copy of the dragon book (first edition) for $10, the text my text was always saying "for a better explanation, see x in y." The best book already was affordable, but we didn't use it because.. duh duh duh duh! It didn't come with free course materials. That bribery should be completely illegal.
Re:Free? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 13:03 · Score: 0

I know that many of /. readers have never really tried to create highly quality production level content, but it is really hard to do.
Oh please. $200 for a trig textbook? Oftentimes, there aren't even any major changes. These prices are indefensible.

One of the most disappointing things about Khan is that it is just a hand on a board.
Khan Academy is just a resource, and a great one at that (for some people). If that's what helps people learn, why does anyone even care? There is no one size fits all solution to teaching.
Re:Free? by lahvak · 2012-09-28 13:41 · Score: 1

I don't know what is the situation with college bookstore in California, but many colleges nationwide are getting rid of their bookstores and outsourcing them to large booksellers. We outsourced ours two years ago, since we just couln't keep up with the cost. As far as I know, most colleges sink considerable amount of money into their bookstores every year, and the money is typically only partially offsett by selling college brand merchandise in the bookstores.

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AccountKiller
Re:Free? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 14:57 · Score: 0

Adding features to your product and being paid for them: bribery. It's like every YRO-tagged story sends an alert to everyone who is pathetically misinformed.
Re:Free? by Half-pint+HAL · 2012-09-28 23:18 · Score: 1

Many professors still use texts just because the company providing the text gives them a teacher's manual and course work so they don't have to do as much work. It's hard to provide those resources in an open-source book.

Really? Do you genuinely think the sales/revenue model changes the fundamental nature of the book? Does the act that governor signed specify books without teachers manuals? And does dispensing with closed-copyright make it A) harder or B) easier for teachers to share tutorial sheets derived from book content? Answers on a postcard to "dept of the bloody obvious"....

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Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
Re:Free? by Half-pint+HAL · 2012-09-28 23:20 · Score: 1

I know that many of /. readers have never really tried to create highly quality production level content, but it is really hard to do.
Oh please. $200 for a trig textbook? Oftentimes, there aren't even any major changes. These prices are indefensible.
But he wasn't defending the retail price of current textbooks -- he was defending the public funding for the new initiative.

--
Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
Re:Free? by jmerlin · 2012-09-29 05:43 · Score: 1

Really? Do you genuinely think the sales/revenue model changes the fundamental nature of the book?
The "fundamental nature"? What are you talking about? I'm talking about quality, and in the case of quality, absolutely. Let me turn that poorly thought-out complaint back on you. Let's talk about cable internet for a moment. Do you genuinely think the sales/revenue model changes the fundamental nature of the cable? Well no, because the "fundamental nature" of something doesn't matter. That's like saying "all internet connections are the same because you're still just capable of sending bits to another machine anywhere in the world." How full of shit would that statement be? It's very clear when an internet subscription is maintained by a capitalist sales/revenue model that precludes user choice (see: most of the US), that the quality necessarily tends towards "bad" while prices don't reflect the quality of service rendered. Take another look at these poor quality textbooks being used only out of bribery. It's a very good analogy because students don't get to choose what text they use, and because these poor quality texts that pander to teachers are generally priced very far above what is reasonable for that quality (especially compared to the available "good" texts). User choice is precluded with a bad quality + high price. Interesting.

Does the act that governor signed specify books without teachers manuals?
Yes. If the text is to be open source, that necessarily includes the teacher's manual. Precluding access to a part of it would violate the fact that it's open source. So either there is no teacher's manual or it's not really open source. Or, as is often the case, the people who wrote this legislation have a very poor understanding of "open source."

And does dispensing with closed-copyright make it A) harder or B) easier for teachers to share tutorial sheets derived from book content?
This is completely immaterial to the discussion.
Re:Free? by Half-pint+HAL · 2012-09-29 06:08 · Score: 1

In which case, you're shooting your own argument in the head. Very rarely can a professor afford to set aside the time to write a book start to finish, full-time, because very rarely can they command a serious advance from the publisher. The state is offering a lump-sum payment, so (in theory at least) these books should be better, thanks to a better opportunity to focus on the work at hand.

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Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
Re:Free? by J'raxis · 2012-09-29 06:15 · Score: 1

This problem could probably be fixed without regulating and fining textbook manufacturers. If a few major colleges revolted against the current textbook paradigm, refused to buy from any of these companies, until they implemented the policies you describe, it would have the same effect---without creating any new laws. The only reason companies get away with abusive behavior like this is because the consumers put up with it.
As for health care, if you want real reform, start by repealing the HMO Act. That's what gave the insurance companies the lock on health care they have now and what led to the exorbitant prices everyone has to suffer nowadays.

--
Liberty in your lifetime

They could start with Wikibooks by DanielRavenNest · 2012-09-28 10:09 · Score: 3, Interesting

They could use the books already on Wikibooks ( http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Main_Page ) as a starting point.

I wonder if the open-source books they will produce will break away from the paper textbook paradigm (linear text+static images)? The one I am writing ( http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Space_Transport_and_Engineering_Methods ) is heavily hyperlinked, I've included a spreadsheet and expect to include other media, am working on a resource library ( http://www.mediafire.com/?y1ko8gj5rouob ), and the concept of "class projects" (design studies) which become part of the book.

Re:They could start with Wikibooks by BlueCoder · 2012-09-28 11:49 · Score: 1

Hyperlinks break. Better to just create a supplementary "book" with recent material and trends and listings for further reading. That way readers aren't frustrated clicking on broken links in the main textbook after the book is a couple years old.
Re:They could start with Wikibooks by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-29 05:40 · Score: 0

That's why I'm creating a resource library, those links will be supported longer. Besides, I intend to keep the book current and update links as needed. The idea that a book is a static product that you write once and don't change it comes from the dead tree era. Online books are more like software, with constant updates.

Declare it free, and it becomes so? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 10:12 · Score: 0

I believe the cost of college textbooks is outrageous, but this is ridiculous.

A politician waves his wand (or in this case, his pen) and declares that a particular product shall be created that not only is adequate to do the job but free as well... and it is supposed to magically happen?

Never understood this business by EmperorOfCanada · 2012-09-28 10:14 · Score: 3, Insightful

I have never understood this business. Not much has changed in say basic trig or geometry in 100 years. In that time basic subject textbooks should have been whittled down to two or three that are simply the best. But somehow there is different textbooks in nearly every school system in North America; yet a school system in SoCal should be able to use the same textbook as in Maine. The textbook companies have somehow convinced every schoolboard that they should tailor the books to match their exact curriculum. This gives the schoolboards a warm and fuzzy feeling while they set up approval commities, training sessions, etc for the new books. Yet these books add up to a huge percentage of the budget.

My two daughters have nearly useless textbooks year after year which their teachers just don't use. They will have questions like: "Write down all the ways 10 numbered marbles can be put into 5 lettered bags." Holy crap do these people even have a basic understanding of math.

It is not just ebooks that can replace these dinosaurs but cool online videos.

Bye bye massively commissioned textbook sales people.

Re:Never understood this business by arth1 · 2012-09-28 10:20 · Score: 0

My two daughters have nearly useless textbooks year after year which their teachers just don't use. They will have questions like: "Write down all the ways 10 numbered marbles can be put into 5 lettered bags."
Are your daughters still writing the answer to that one? How far have they come so far?
Re:Never understood this business by jmerlin · 2012-09-28 11:07 · Score: 1

There are only 30,240 different ways. So I would guess that only took a few weeks. Not much to learn from it, though. I would've done it just to see if the teacher would've graded it.
Re:Never understood this business by skelly33 · 2012-09-28 11:35 · Score: 1

Search the web for the Texas School Board vs. school text books. I saw a documentary on this last year that was pretty enlightening (and alarming). At the end of the day, it's an economic play that determines what books end up getting selected, but during the course of the day, it's the folks in Texas who have a the most prominent voice over the content of the books, nation-wide.
Re:Never understood this business by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 16:15 · Score: 0

There are 9765625 ways. Assuming bags lettered A-E and marbles numbered 1-10, think of it this way. If you place marble 1 in a bag first, there's 5 ways. Then next place marble 2. Also 5 ways, but each combination is different depending on where marble 1 went. So 25 ways (5^2) for 2 marbles. It's 5^10 for 10 marbles, which is just shy of 10 million combinations. Assuming you wrote one down per second, 8 hours a day, it would take you a hair shy of a year.
Re:Never understood this business by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 16:52 · Score: 0

Just a bit off there - for each marble, there are 5 bags to choose from. The choice is independent, so we multiply for each choice, giving 5^10 = 9,765,625, not 30,240.

More fantasy Land Wet Dreams... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 10:15 · Score: 0

from the national socialist (aka democrat) party - arnold was a member too just like most republicans...

Nothing is free by nurb432 · 2012-09-28 10:16 · Score: 1

Its still being paid for by tax dollars, but at least there is no additional fee to the parents, unless of course you have nothing to view them on.. so 'free' e-ink for all..

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---- Booth was a patriot ----

Re:Nothing is free by Mashiki · 2012-09-28 12:17 · Score: 1

Its still being paid for by tax dollars, but at least there is no additional fee to the parents, unless of course you have nothing to view them on.. so 'free' e-ink for all..
Kinda reminds me of the communist faction in Tropico> where he chants: Communism is upon us! Today free housing, tomorrow free EVERYTHING! Of course if you look at your budget details, everything on your island jumps in price by about 30%. Indeed...it's free...

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Om, nomnomnom...

Why not elementary school textbooks? by glassware · 2012-09-28 10:18 · Score: 2

Frankly, elementary school lessons don't change that much from one year to the next. The current textbooks my child uses are incredibly simple, and they contain pretty timeless lessons. If someone was to take a textbook from 50 or 70 years ago that was out of copyright, they could easily make it available to all schools to use, or they could copy relevant sections from many books to make a single "First Grade Math Book" or "Second Grade English Book".

Doing so would eliminate a HUGE amount of the cost of school. When you see how much a school spends on textbooks, you'll be bowled over. The latest textbooks I've seen have basically one sentence of text per page, accompanied with huge, two page spread art pictures - totally worthless and a waste of space. Even "See Spot Run" had more than one sentence per page.

Stop our schools from spending money on stuff that doesn't matter. The textbooks aren't going to make our kids smart. Time with a teacher will.

Re:Why not elementary school textbooks? by bcrowell · 2012-09-28 10:26 · Score: 1, Interesting

Former Gov. Schwarzenegger tried to do exactly this, with his Free Digital Textbook Initiative. As far as I can tell, it had zero impact.

--
Find free books.
Re:Why not elementary school textbooks? by arth1 · 2012-09-28 10:39 · Score: 2

Frankly, elementary school lessons don't change that much from one year to the next. The current textbooks my child uses are incredibly simple, and they contain pretty timeless lessons. If someone was to take a textbook from 50 or 70 years ago that was out of copyright, they could easily make it available to all schools to use
Somehow I think that a textbook from 50-70 years ago would be way too advanced for today's kids.
Here are some test questions that 11-12 year old British kids would need to pass in the fifties to go to grammar school.
Hands up, anyone who thinks that kids born in 2001 would pass this test. Ever.
Re:Why not elementary school textbooks? by skelly33 · 2012-09-28 11:42 · Score: 1

If someone was to take a textbook from 50 or 70 years ago that was out of copyright...

You mean like the ones that taught us how women are supposed to be serving in the kitchen, that children should never speak, especially when Father is present, and that Father should not tolerate any insolence from either? Cultural/societal values present themselves in the darnedest places.

It may seem that simple on the surface, but in fact it is not. The language and message carried in books needs to be updated to reflect our current understanding of the world, and current cultural values and norms. Not every year, but every 5? 7? That's pretty normal for public school books to be replaced on 5 to 7 year intervals...
Re:Why not elementary school textbooks? by skelly33 · 2012-09-28 11:47 · Score: 1

Thanks for that link to sensible-math-education - after a quick scan, it looks like an interesting read!
Re:Why not elementary school textbooks? by DragonWriter · 2012-09-28 12:10 · Score: 2

Former Gov. Schwarzenegger tried to do exactly this, with his Free Digital Textbook Initiative. As far as I can tell, it had zero impact.
Well, zero impact on elementary school textbooks, maybe, but since that initiative is limited to High School textbooks, that's perhaps unsurprising. So, not exactly the same thing GP was calling for, after all.
Re:Why not elementary school textbooks? by arth1 · 2012-09-28 12:13 · Score: 1

I think it looks good too, but I still think it's sad that parents may have to resort to private tutoring to give kids a mathematical education comparable in quality to what children receive in other parts of the world.

Studying from a laptop? by teknx · 2012-09-28 10:19 · Score: 2

Maybe I'm old school, but I'd rather study from a textbook than a screen. Maybe someone could invent a portable device where I can read books where the text resembles electronic ink? And there can be an electronic marketplace where you can buy these books! Hopefully this post can kindle a few ideas..

Re:Studying from a laptop? by maxdread · 2012-09-28 10:45 · Score: 3, Funny

That's a bit of a far fetched idea. I've searched the earth far and wide, in every Nook and cranny, I've even searched deep in the Amazon and have yet to find anything similar to that which you desire.
Re:Studying from a laptop? by El_Oscuro · 2012-09-28 12:39 · Score: 1

But dow it run Linux?

--
"Be grateful for what you have. You may never know when you may lose it."

Wife had a teacher who wrote his own by bobjr94 · 2012-09-28 10:19 · Score: 2

When my wife was taking math classes a few years ago, one of her professors had written his own text book and gave it away for free as a pdf to anyone, including other schools and teachers, who wanted it. He thought it was such a waste for the students to be forced to buy a $120 book they use once and then get $18 back for it, then see it resold for $86.

XML format? by Cinder6 · 2012-09-28 10:22 · Score: 1

I'm not super well-versed in my eBook formats, but I was under the impression that the common formats, such as ePub and MOBI/AZW, use combinations of XML (such as ePub's manifest files) and HTML. From the summary, it sounds as if this is yet another eBook format we'll have to contend with, which won't be supported by the popular eReaders out there.

When I say I want an eBook, I mean I want to be able to read it on my Kindle or Nook. E-Ink, not LCD. It seems to me that the best option would be to follow the Project Gutenberg model and provide pure HTML, ePub, MOBI, and other common formats. Yes, since it's "open source" we will probably be able to convert the books, but how many people are going to know how to do that?

--
If you can't convince them, convict them.

Re:XML format? by GeLeTo · 2012-09-28 10:47 · Score: 2

They most probably mean DocBook XML. In the XML you only express data - chapters, articles, paragraphs, titles, images... No formatting. And then using the same XML you can generate HTML, PDF, ePub, MOBI, htmlhelp, etc...
Re:XML format? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 10:48 · Score: 0

If the math books are not written in some variant of TeX, something is majorly wrong.
Re:XML format? by DragonWriter · 2012-09-28 12:04 · Score: 1

I'm not super well-versed in my eBook formats, but I was under the impression that the common formats, such as ePub and MOBI/AZW, use combinations of XML (such as ePub's manifest files) and HTML.

Doesn't ePub uses a combination of XML and XML, requiring the "HTML" part to be XHTML.

From the summary, it sounds as if this is yet another eBook format we'll have to contend with, which won't be supported by the popular eReaders out there.
Why would you trust a Slashdot summary of a short LA Times article to provide much information about the content of a law?
What the law actually requires regarding format is that the open-source materials acquired under its authority:

are modular in order to allow easy customization, and are encoded in an Extensible Markup Language (XML) format, or other appropriate successor format, and are designed and delivered to achieve interoperability enabling the materials to be made available reliably and successfully on the widest possible range of platforms, such as the Internet, tablets, smartphones, print, or other platforms.
Re:XML format? by DragonWriter · 2012-09-28 12:07 · Score: 1

They most probably mean DocBook XML.
I've posted the actual format require from the law in a separate response to GP, but "DocBook XML" isn't what it calls for.

Craigslist for textbooks? by teknx · 2012-09-28 10:24 · Score: 1

If there was a site where students could post textbooks for trade locally by city or campus, they could at least put a hurting on the school store buyback racket.

Re:Craigslist for textbooks? by suutar · 2012-09-28 10:54 · Score: 3, Informative

unless the prof requires the new edition, that switches the order of chapters 9 and 10, makes minor changes in the constants in the word problems throughout the book so the answers are different, and adds 10 more bucks to the price over last year's edition.
Re:Craigslist for textbooks? by XDLMAO · 2012-09-28 14:14 · Score: 1

My school has a student book exchange every semester. Students set the price they want their books to be sold, and then people come in and browse the books. If they want to buy it, it's a win win for both parties.
Re:Craigslist for textbooks? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-30 07:44 · Score: 0

unless the prof requires the new edition, that switches the order of chapters 9 and 10, makes minor changes in the constants in the word problems throughout the book so the answers are different, and adds 10 more bucks to the price over last year's edition.
Sounds like the video game and textbook industries have found a business model that maximizes profit! -- http://games.slashdot.org/story/12/09/28/2144257/ea-makes-minor-tweaks-to-fifa-12-for-the-wii-releases-it-as-fifa-13

Why rewrite homework problems? by checho4 · 2012-09-28 10:26 · Score: 1

Why rewrite and re-revise 1500 high-level calculus homework questions when thousands of these have already been published over and over and over and over? There's an easy solution: use old ones.

Re:Why rewrite homework problems? by Githaron · 2012-09-28 10:42 · Score: 2

Of simply have a computer randomly generate them with the answers included..
Re:Why rewrite homework problems? by skelly33 · 2012-09-28 11:11 · Score: 2

There is nothing random about the problems selected in the books. They are carefully arranged to ensure that you see the various permutations that are possible to encounter. If it were as easy as randomly generating book material, it would have been done long ago. Furthermore, calculus, I think, would not be one of 50 "core" subjects to be covered.

Highlander Thesis by dcollins · 2012-09-28 10:39 · Score: 2

"Yes, since it's 'open source' we will probably be able to convert the books, but how many people are going to know how to do that?"

There need be only one!

--
We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes

What open source textbooks mean by DragonWriter · 2012-09-28 10:52 · Score: 1

if I cant afford a $20 textbook, how can I afford a $60 internet bill for the e-books?

Nothing requires the textbooks to be provided to students exclusively electronically or, even when electronically, exclusively over the internet. And core textbooks are rarely $20 -- more like $60+.

Open source licensing means that the institutions (individually or together) can customize the books, and provide them free electronically and, if they want, have them printed and sell them to students at a cost that covers the cost of printing without any publisher markup.

Fuck Jerry Brown by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 10:57 · Score: 0

EOM

What about the content? by ChrisMaple · 2012-09-28 10:57 · Score: 2

Have you seen the fnords?

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California needs to get itself under control by enigma32 · 2012-09-28 11:08 · Score: 2, Interesting

This is ridiculous.
I moved to California a year ago to be with my wife will she attends grad school and I have been appalled at the insanity that regularly occurs in this state as compared to anywhere the East coast.

1) Freely available educational material is fantastic.
2) Having the government pay for freely available educational material that will not necessarily be used by the college courses they are intended for is bad.
3) Forcing professors to use the state-sponsored books would be even worse. The Government can't get anything right, so I certainly wouldn't want some bureaucrat deciding what books were going to be used in a course I was taking.
4) This state doesn't need to spend any more money on anything. Period. They need to get their spending under control before trying to enhance things. 10%+ sales tax? Very bad! And I can hardly wait to see my income taxes for the past year.

Summary:
This is a terrible idea. The CA state government needs to start thinking about NOT defaulting rather than blowing money on ridiculous schemes with no payoff.
There are already some freely available texts anyway, from programs pioneered by top universities. Why not incentivize things like that rather than trying to take more under the government umbrella?

Re:California needs to get itself under control by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 11:48 · Score: 2, Insightful

I moved to California a year ago to be with my wife will she attends grad school and I have been appalled at the insanity that regularly occurs in this state as compared to anywhere the East coast.
Probably because most of those east coast states have anywhere from half (think New York) to 1/75 (Vermont) the population of California. It is much easier to achieve consensus and compromise with less people. What you end up with are a lot of great intentions that are picked apart until they either fail or become a shell of the actual intent. That being said, California still leads the nation on many issues and is probably best considered a testing ground of potential national ideas.

2) Having the government pay for freely available educational material that will not necessarily be used by the college courses they are intended for is bad.
No it is not. Open access to material is always a good thing. If you don't like the way the Universities choose material for classes, then lobby the Universities directly or start your own University using the Open material.

This state doesn't need to spend any more money on anything. Period. They need to get their spending under control before trying to enhance things. 10%+ sales tax? Very bad! And I can hardly wait to see my income taxes for the past year.
We need to stop footing the bill for all the crappy southern states and instead demand a better return on the federal taxes paid by our residents.
Re:California needs to get itself under control by enigma32 · 2012-09-28 12:22 · Score: 0

Probably because most of those east coast states have anywhere from half (think New York) to 1/75 (Vermont) the population of California. It is much easier to achieve consensus and compromise with less people. What you end up with are a lot of great intentions that are picked apart until they either fail or become a shell of the actual intent. That being said, California still leads the nation on many issues and is probably best considered a testing ground of potential national ideas.
The whole life situation in California is much crazier than anywhere else I've ever been. Are you saying that it's harder for people in CA to make good decisions than it is for the nation as a whole?
I know it is nonsensical here because I've lived on both sides of the country, in big cities and small towns. Can you say the same?
I recently renewed the registration on my car. After spending over an hour looking for the renewal form on the DMV website I gave up and just went to AAA. They told me it's not actually called a "renewal" form in California. Unfortunately the CA DMV site never explains that anywhere on their site, and worse, they don't link to the form from any of their informational pages about the process!
Now go compare that to other states. It's pretty easy elsewhere (search for "NY DMV registration renewal" and see what I mean). Why is it harder here? I don't know, the state is just screwed up. No one thinks before they do things here.
Re: freely available educational material paid for by the government being a bad thing if not utilized

No it is not. Open access to material is always a good thing. If you don't like the way the Universities choose material for classes, then lobby the Universities directly or start your own University using the Open material.
Actually, you're just dead wrong here. A waste of money is a waste of money no matter how you look at it. If the CA government pays for these books to be developed and published and they aren't used, it is-- by any definition-- a waste of money [because the product of the expenditure is not being used].
I agree free access to educational material is a good thing (and if you had read my initial post you would know that), but I don't see this particular program benefiting anyone in any conceivable away unless it gains the support of the folks actually teaching the classes. [And again, how is the CA government going to head up the production of 50 text books for college courses if they can't even manage to have a proper link to a car registration renewal form online?]

We need to stop footing the bill for all the crappy southern states and instead demand a better return on the federal taxes paid by our residents.
Hmm. Or.. [stick with me here]... we could stop trying to spend money on worthless things like high speed trains between San Francisco and LA, textbook programs that won't impact anyone, and other useless expenditures before going after more dollars to waste!
The solution in government is never to get more money. That just drives inflation. The solution [for government, anyway] always needs to be keeping things as efficient as possible so that the government doesn't consume more of the income of the people it supports than absolutely necessary.
Throwing money away on useless programs doesn't help at all. Making existing programs more efficient first, and then trying to do wonderful things like give away educational materials (which are already available for free elsewhere) is a good thing.
Re:California needs to get itself under control by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 12:32 · Score: 0

The whole life situation in California is much crazier than anywhere else I've ever been. Are you saying that it's harder for people in CA to make good decisions than it is for the nation as a whole? I know it is nonsensical here because I've lived on both sides of the country, in big cities and small towns. Can you say the same?
Aside from the big city part (I love to visit and often do; I'd never live in one), yes. I've lived in New York, and moved to California from the ass end of Pennsylvania.
I can corroborate your stance that California's government is insane.
Trust me when I say you don't want to get me started on the DMV. After moving here, I shall forever believe that PennDOT craps gold and unicorns and cures cancer in their spare time.
Re:California needs to get itself under control by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 12:35 · Score: 1

Amazing. You came to California for the quality education your wife can get here, and your first complaint is about our taxes (which help sustain the educational opportunities)?
Yes, we have some bloated budget as we are closer to a national scale government than many of your favorite little states. But our big budgetary problems come from:
Prop 13 limits on property tax (particularly commercial properties).
Net loss paying taxes to the feds versus all those little states who live off our teat.
Social programs that we as a population prefer.
Re:California needs to get itself under control by enigma32 · 2012-09-28 12:49 · Score: 0

Actually, my wife is here to attend a quality private institution that just happens to be located in this socialist state.
As for my "favorite little states", I am referring mostly to NY, which is half the population of but fares much, much better than California.
And New Yorkers may much high taxes per capita than CA residences, so you haven't got much to complain about there.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_tax_revenue_by_state)
Re:California needs to get itself under control by evilviper · 2012-09-28 17:56 · Score: 2

You've given no reason at all for your California-hate. If you don't like it, fine, feel free to leave, but don't pretend there's a lot wrong with the state, as oppsed to not aligning with your own biases.
California is in-debt, but many states are in far worse shape, and the debt is due to lots of public services and restrictions keeping property taxes low and predictable (so it's a good place to own a home, or property. Sales tax in California varies by County, and most places it's well below 10%. It's as low as about 6.5% in many areas, and many things, like food, are exempt.
Your objection to this particular bill is pretty baseless, just a tea-bagger rant about how the government shouldn't spend any money, ever, on anything.

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Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Re:California needs to get itself under control by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 20:51 · Score: 0

I agree with the parent. This is wasted money. The guy who authored the bill is Daryl Steinberg, CA State Senate majority leader. Guess who his predecessor was? Dean Florez, who termed out of the Senate a few years ago, but just before he did that, he "discovered" the open textbook movement, and found that it was a ripe foundation funding opportunity. Voila! Florez reinvents himself, and lands on his feet in a new career as a highly visible (in CA State ed circles) guy who is championing cheaper college textbook prices! Here in Sacramento I remember hearing about Florez promises at 20 Million Minds, the group he heads (funded by a guy who made a fortune in medical instrumentation-related field), promising to create a "library of the top 25 enrolled California course textbooks". His group "created" exactly one good book, which in reality had already been published by another open textbook group. Florez prettied that book up, added a few supplements, but put the 20 Million MInds stamp on it. Then, all of a sudden, everything seems to stop at 20 Million MInds. My guess is that Florez' sugar daddy had second thoughts and Florez had to go find some money to keep his new career going. Thus, this bill. I think it's a waste of money, because there are ALREADY a lot of open textbooks out there, including the ones they need in California.
I think Brown signed this bill because Brown is a consummate politician, period. Nobody wants textbooks that cost a lot. Signing a bill to create cheaper textbooks is popular. The problem is that the mandate still has to get funded. The other thing that's really loopy about this bill is that they are going to create a 9-person committee, gathered from the various CA college systems to kind of "run" things. I can already imagine how that will turn out! This project has "fail" written all over it - and just like so many other projects that California's feckless politicians and ex-politicians sponsor, if it fails, nobody will get fired. Accountability? What's that? From that perspective, it's a "safe" project, and one that will gain Florez the intermediate visibility he needs to skip like a skipping stone to his next "soft" state-based opportunity. I wonder if Steinberg will join Florez when the former terms out in 2014. Stay tuned.
Welcome to California!
Re:California needs to get itself under control by enigma32 · 2012-09-28 21:52 · Score: 1

Actually, I have given reasons for why I hate California.
I hate it because everything here is completely nonsensical.
California is ranked 49 out of 51 for unemployment (not good at all): http://money.cnn.com/interactive/economy/state-unemployment-rates/
And at 7.25%, California has the great distinction of having the highest minimum sales tax in the US. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sales_and_use_taxes_in_California)
And no, my objection is not baseless. It's based on the fact that government spending on something like this ridiculous textbook program is a waste when there are other alternatives out there (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_textbook#Projects) already generating these things for free. Why should the state of California pour money into something that already exists? There are much more important issues to deal with (like that 10.6% unemployment rate, or being ranked #6 for state debt: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/24/states-debt-combined-may-exceed-4-trillion_n_1029162.html#s429797&title=6_California)
I have evidence backing up my claims. But go ahead and keep loving your socialist paradise while it continues to spend itself out of existence. At least I know I'll be moving back to sanity in a couple years.
Re:California needs to get itself under control by evilviper · 2012-09-29 06:32 · Score: 1

I hate it because everything here is completely nonsensical.
That's nothing but an opinion, and a ridiculously far-reaching and baseless one at that.

California is ranked 49 out of 51 for unemployment (not good at all): http://money.cnn.com/interactive/economy/state-unemployment-rates/ [cnn.com]
I'm guessing that has a whole lot to do with California having the best unemployment benefits, so people stay in the system, rather than falling off the rolls like many others, where they are uncounted.

And at 7.25%, California has the great distinction of having the highest minimum sales tax in the US. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sales_and_use_taxes_in_California)
Nope, try again. At least Arizona is higher.
California's MINIMUM sales tax is only a fraction of a percent above a LOT of other states (7%). And counting the MINIMUM is completely arbitrary, it doesn't change that several other states pay far higher sales taxes, and seems contrived so you could find some way to justify your moaning about CA.
And additionally, like I already said, essential items like groceries are exempt (which many other states don't do), meaning the tax on all other sales needs to be higher to compensate. And sales tax is only that high because voters in the states prefer to keep property taxes low and predictable instead. Just as some states don't have income tax, and the like.
Once again, your claims are baseless nonsense based on your personal prejudice rather than actual, important issues. None of the things you've come up with, even if they were true and fair comparisons, would even potentially lend any credence to your ridiculous primary claim that: "everything here is completely nonsensical"

But go ahead and keep loving your socialist paradise while it continues to spend itself out of existence.
Enjoy the Tea-Bagger rallies. I'm content in the knowledge that changing demographics will make the Republican Party cease to be a viable national party within the next 10 years, max. Expect everything Limbaugh has told you to hold dear will be thrown under the bus by Republicans, desperately trying to retain their viability, very soon... It will likely start as soon as Romney loses.

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Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Re:California needs to get itself under control by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-29 12:12 · Score: 0

California for the most part is full of a lot of stupid. These people voted Jerry Brown back into office. The recent ballot proposals are hilarious. Lots of "lets increase taxes" in a state that already has some of the highest tax rates in the country. They are deep in a debt hole and they still want to throw out more "bond" (er loans) to fund a bullet train program. They dont realize they have a spending waste problem. They want to ask joe public to raise taxes so they can help fund things like excessive government worker pensions and too many pointless state agencies. They use police, fire and teachers as their pawns. Of course many of these workers are promised pensions that can be 70% plus of their income for life. How can you promise these things when a population is getting older. How can you justify asking joe public to pay more taxes so mr government worker can live in luxury with a free pay check for life? Screw that. The people in the private sector are having to save in their 401K's and you want to tax them so government guy can get his lifetime pension?
CA ranks 30th in the country for education. They rank 42 per spending for student and yet they spend a majority of the state budget on education. Something doesn't calculate right. How can you spend a majority of your state budget on education and rank 42 spending per student? Where is that money going? Willing to bet a lot gets siphoned of to pay for debt or interest on other reckless expenditures and pensions. When are these people going to realize their educational problems aren't about revenue.

Open Source by DragonWriter · 2012-09-28 11:09 · Score: 2

If these are "free textbooks," why does the legislature have to fund it?

As one might expect Slashdot users to know (well, maybe not) "free" is often used to refer to certain liberal licensing terms ("libre") rather than free-of-charge ("gratis").

Although -- no doubt much to Richard Stallman's chagrin -- the law itself actually uses the term "open source" rather than "free".

You gotta luv the can-do attitude by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 11:15 · Score: 0

on slash/dot.

not.

This is long overdue and if the legislature is serious about reducing the cost of a college education, this is a necessary step.

It's certainly not the only one.

There is nothing more expensive than free stuff by udachny · 2012-09-28 11:30 · Score: 0

And as always, there is nothing more expensive than something that government supposedly gives you "for free".

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Re:There is nothing more expensive than free stuff by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 12:55 · Score: 1

Unless, of course, it is free labor. That is just simply free for the taking. And if it is labor that was promised to be compensated for, but was instead not paid for, then even better. Right? After all, those lower class peons owe their labor to the captains of industry - it is only through their own grace that they get paid at all as we all know they are in no way deserving of it.
Re:There is nothing more expensive than free stuff by Half-pint+HAL · 2012-09-29 06:52 · Score: 1

And as always, there is nothing more expensive than something that government supposedly gives you "for free".
Nonsense. Privatisation of public services always ends up costing more. Electricity, water, gas, phones, buses, trains -- they all cost more in total now that they're private enterprises. Education is cheaper overall in countries where the government pays. Healthcare is cheaper where the government pays. Your ideology may disagree, but reality trumps ideology.

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Re:There is nothing more expensive than free stuff by udachny · 2012-09-29 08:22 · Score: 1

What is nonsense is your entire comment. Everything costs more when it is in the hands of government, not less. Phones? PHONES? Ha ha ha, yeah, with AT&T being the monopoly nobody could even own a phone. Today everybody has multiple cellphones.

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Re:There is nothing more expensive than free stuff by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-29 09:08 · Score: 0

Your ideology may disagree, but reality trumps ideology.
Perhaps you don't know who you're talking to? Roman_mir (udachny is a sock puppet of roman_mir) is a dedicated ron paul cultist. To him, his ideology is reality because it comes from his lord ron paul. You can place all the facts in front of him you want, but he won't acknowledge them because they don't agree with what he has seen ron paul say on youtube.
Re:There is nothing more expensive than free stuff by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-29 09:38 · Score: 0

Ha ha ha, yeah, with AT&T being the monopoly nobody could even own a phone.
That is another case of you contradicting your own argument. AT&T was a monopoly that formed without government intervention, and was broken up by government intervention. Had the government not intervened, AT&T would have been the only land line carrier to this day most likely.

Today everybody has multiple cellphones.
Perhaps everyone in your church has multiple cellphones. However I happen to know plenty of people with only one phone (my wife and I are two examples of this) and even some people with - GASP no cell phone at all. While you are known for not acknowledging the world beyond your nose (and your favorite youtube videos of ron paul) that does not mean that the rest of the world does not exist.

Next: Textbook Payola by Billy+the+Mountain · 2012-09-28 11:36 · Score: 2

So what's a poor textbook company supposed to do now? Oh, I know, pay teachers to choose my textbooks and ignore the free ones!

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Speaking as a Professor... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 11:41 · Score: 0

I teach engineering at a local college, and let me say that it pisses me to no end that the publishers churn editions so quickly. Engineering thermodynamics hasn't changed much in 100 years, but they have released 3 editions of the same text in as many years.

The changes? The number order of the end of chapter problems is shuffled. Everything else is letter-for-letter identical.

The fallout of all this is that significant numbers of my students actually attempt to take my engineering thermodynamics and fluid mechanics courses without a book. Never mind that, at a minimum, they need steam and property tables in the text for the exams (I let them bring photocopies of property tables for exams, but I have to check them as some kids have used these to hide crib sheets). They don't do the homework because they won't buy the book. They are winging it because the damned books are $250 and they can only hope to sell them back for 20% of what they paid for them, just so the bookstore can sell them for $200 used.

I've worked to allow my students to use ANY edition of the assigned text, so they can rummage around online for cheap used editions, or buy from recent course graduates. I provide different assignment sheets depending on edition so everyone does the same problems (even though the problems have different numbers in different editions). I've toyed with letting them use any thermodynamics or fluid mechanics texts (any author, any edition) and then assigning my own common homework problems, but there is enough variability in the texts where this causes problems.

I've played with the idea of writing my own textbook, but the problem is delivery. If I could write a text that I could issue as a PDF or a paper copy, charging just to cover the printing costs, that would be wonderful. This is done in some specialized state licensing courses that we teach where there isn't really a standard textbook available. But I am sure the publishers of the commercial texts would have lawyers on me like stink on a skunk if I tried this, probably with a charge of plagiarism (as most textbooks use the same terminology and symbols and are essentially the same damned books with minor tweaks). Accreditation agencies are in on the act as well, as you need to teach out of an "accepted" text. Anybody want to quote odds on my photocopied text becoming accepted?

A standardized text would be great, but I don't think the publishers will go for it and they will fight it tooth & nail as it obviously would bite their bottom line.

Law is about "open source" content by DragonWriter · 2012-09-28 11:41 · Score: 1

A politician waves his wand (or in this case, his pen) and declares that a particular product shall be created that not only is adequate to do the job but free as well... and it is supposed to magically happen?

While the LA Times uses the word "free", the actual law in question uses the term "open source".

Of course, once the State acquires open source textbooks, its pretty easy to also make copies available free-of-charge.

Future Slashdot Story by NoKaOi · 2012-09-28 12:07 · Score: 2

Free open source California textbooks unavailable for download due to bogus DMCA takedown notices from Pearson, Cengage Learning, and Macmillan.

Funding dicey by __aaltlg1547 · 2012-09-28 12:45 · Score: 1

I think there's a problem. They'll be up against financisl support for public universities in California.

Excellent News by Brett+Buck · 2012-09-28 12:55 · Score: 0

Jerry is still finding new ways to spend my money!

Not sure by subao · 2012-09-28 14:43 · Score: 1

This may not necessarily ah

the links are for cross-refs? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 15:02 · Score: 0

I think he meant, he uses links to take the reader to relevant info elsewhere within the same textbook. Those are just cross-refs, they won't ever break.

The other thing by kova.lee · 2012-09-28 15:28 · Score: 2

While I do agree that requiring faculty to use the free books is dangerous, take a look at it from the professor's point of view. One of my professors in my paralegal program freely spoke to us about the process of choosing textbooks. He basically said that the majority of textbooks out there on a given topic are the same. Occasionally, there'll be a standout book but his general thought was that no book was perfect - that is, books that cover one area of the subject well tend to lack in other areas. Thus, when he chooses a textbook for a course, the "teacher perks" end up being about as large a factor as the actual content of the book itself... things like question bank, supplemental materials, online materials and support, etc. Thus, if there are going to be free textbooks, there'll have to be adequate corresponding teacher support materials to go along with it... b/c, let's face it, the majority of college professors are used to having access to test banks and whatnot. Without this, I don't think teachers would have an incentive to adopt, no matter what the cost.

Nothing is more expensive by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 15:44 · Score: 0

Than what the government pretends to provide for free.

More one-size-fits-all laws to ruin it for everyone.

Good content for free? by jsepeta · 2012-09-28 17:14 · Score: 0

Wikipedia is better now than it ever was. They actually have some articles which are well-researched and have a large number of sources cited. Content creators (writers, designers, researchers) should be paid for their efforts. The free toy in your happy meal is usually crap; school textbooks are too important to be crap. If schools want free textbooks, cant they just scan it and share it? Or learn to use BitTorrent like everybody else?

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Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.

Have all states share one tree by mattr · 2012-09-28 18:24 · Score: 1

But the course material is virtually identical for all states.
If all states got involved there would be 50 times the budget!
By using similar systems to those used by software development you could allow a teacher to download the source tree, edit as desired and let students download the nightly build.
You could even make a branch for the religious fanatic states, where they can add intelligent design or whatever, no reason to not take their money.
With some organization you could make it easy for any teacher or parent to select chapters from a given book.
I don't see why California has to go it alone. All states, one tree, each state or school or teacher can select the parts of it they need while contributing to the development.

I didn't buy books for upper division classes by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-28 20:38 · Score: 0

For the entire last 2 "years" (which takes everyone in the CS department longer than 2 years) I didn't buy textbooks at all. Professors didn't really use them that much, some had online notes and some had $6 printouts from the printing shop with all of their material. Yet, I believe they are required to teach from a textbook for some reason. As long as all of the notes/assignments do not require the textbook I got away with not buying one at all.

can't facepalm hard enough by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-29 00:41 · Score: 0

not even the nebula facepalm was good enough to represent the sheer stupidity of brown's decision. I may live in CA but I think it's best if it gets sawed in half and the idiots can be pushed to live on their own fantasy island away from the US.

this is good. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-29 02:11 · Score: 0

I'm tired of reading all the comments saying that "free stuff isn't free" or "this is going to cost the taxpayers" or "Stupid California is at it again."

Yes it's going to cost something. The main thing that this will cost is the time and effort of the faculty members who will put the books together. Many, many professors have contemplated writing their own notes or textbook, but it's a lot of work, and for most of us there just isn't the time to do it and do it right. Banding together and dividing the work is the the logical thing to do, but that can difficult to do if you don't have backing from upper administration. That's where these two bills come in. Since it's sponsored by the state, the university system can manage the logistics of dividing the work, and the faculty who write the textbooks can count this as part of their service to the institution. Service that is beneficial to the students and the faculty.

Since they're releasing it with a Creative Commons license, others can use the end-products, and tailor them to their needs. I plan on looking at their math books and either using them at my university (in another state). I may use them as-is, and I may make some adjustments to it so that it better fits our curriculum. I'm sure I won't be the only one doing this. Someone said earlier that this should be a joint initiative of all 50 states. While that would be ideal in some sense, it would complicate the organization of the project.

I'm glad and thankful that California is stepping forward to start this project.

ALL states should be doing this by swillden · 2012-09-29 04:41 · Score: 1

Not only should all states be funding open-source textbooks, they should really start with the K-12 space.

Schools in our country spend insane amounts of money buying very expensive textbooks again and again, in spite of the fact that the topics they cover haven't changed significantly centuries. Most elementary schools save money by not allowing the books to leave the classroom, ever, and even secondary schools have to put a lot of effort into trying to reuse books year over year, which changes how students use the books. In addition to all of that, when errors are discovered or (rare) changes in subject matter crop up, there is no way to correct them except by shelling out another $50-75 per text, per student.

The content for all of this basic education material should be in the public domain, freely available for anyone to use in whatever way they like. If hardcover, bound copies are useful then schools (or states) should hire publishers to print them, on a competitive basis. If Kinko's can provide a comparable product at a lower price than Houghton-Mifflin, then Kinko's gets the contract. This would reduce the per-text price from $50+ to around $5. At that price, every student can have their own copy to use and abuse and keep or recycle, as they like.

Or, if teachers find it more useful to have their students use the material in electronic form, or to print off selected subsets of the material to hand out on a periodic basis, or... whatever, it can be done in whatever way makes the most sense for the context.

And all of this could be accomplished if states only diverted a small fraction of the money they currently spend on buying expensive textbooks to hiring good education authors to write them on a for-hire basis. This has been obvious for at least 20 years.

Why hasn't it happened? Actually, it has... but not in the official education establishment. The home-schooling community has developed tons of great, low-cost educational materials. Much of it is open source, and much of the rest includes specific permission to make copies as needed for educational purposes. Why hasn't it happened in public school bureaucracies? IMO, it's because their centralization and subservience to political structures has left them open to manipulation by people with vested interest in the status quo.

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Open Source Textbooks by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-29 05:21 · Score: 0

The key words here are ''open source". This means the books are not only free, but can be extended, fixed, improved by others, similar to open source software. The original LaTeX, Word, or whatever is available from a repository. See GreenTeaPress.com

California Uber Alles by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-29 05:33 · Score: 0

"I am governor Jerry Brown . . . ."

Oh wait. Nevermind.

Free by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-29 07:11 · Score: 0

- For some definition of "free"

So the textbook publishers are producing the books out of the goodness of their hearts?

Or will the money come from the taxpayers like every other "free" thing our government offers us?

And with what money???? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-29 07:36 · Score: 0

It is sad that "moonbeam"" does not understand that his state is bankrupt! Good intentions mean absolutely nothing if you do not cut expenses & live within your means. My company & my family do, so the why not the mighty state of California? And PDQ! Or all companies & businesses will be moving out & we will have to "donate" it back to Mexico !!!

Bribes by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-29 07:51 · Score: 0

Some background first; At my University we have these things called "clickers" used by the lower devision courses as a way to "increase student involvement", each department uses a different one and based on preliminary surveys I did (100-200 students, hardly scientific) I found that less than 15% of students are able to use the same "clicker" more than once, and often that was due to repeating a course. From looking at class information (number of people who are required to buy them per class per semester) I found that around $115,000 is spent per semester on these "clickers".

I started to see if I could not standardize these "clickers" across the campus. I was met with heavy resistance from faculty. They use their particular brand because it is "the best". Finally a professor took me to the side and explained to me that the use of "clickers" for lower division classes was required by textbook companies if you wanted cheaper deal for your upper division students textbooks.

Luckily some professors at our University are moving towards open textbooks, but there is so much money to be made by professors that they do not have incentive to change. The same professor I spoke of above usually gets 9-15 books a year free that he wont use and sells them to textbook resellers for $100 a book. Thats a pretty darn good bribe.

Re:Funding not included, (Legislative) Assembly Rq by An+Onerous+Coward · 2012-09-29 11:22 · Score: 1

I will totally donate $100 to the Kickstarter for this one.

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Brown Signs California Bill For Free Textbooks

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