Slashdot Mirror
Ask Slashdot: Hacking Urban Noise?
b1tbkt writes "I live at the corner of one of the busiest intersections in my city (pop. 350k). Although I've replaced all windows, insulated, and caulked every square inch of the place, the fire trucks and cars with obnoxious stereos still regularly intrude on my home office. Most of the noise comes in through the windows. I'm considering mounting an oblong parabolic reflector in the ceiling above the windows with a steady feed of white or brownian noise directed into it (e.g., via a small speaker placed within the reflector) to create a 'wall' of sound that would act as a buffer to the outside world. Active noise cancellation would be nice, too, but that's probably more than I want to take on. I don't see any products on the market for this sort of thing. Does anyone have any experiences to share with similar homebrew noise remediation efforts?"
Quit being a downtown hipster and move to a nice house on a quiet street.
I think the problem is that you've only focused on the building. It's more effective to stop it before it even gets to the building.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
Have curtains made from the kind of heavy drape they use in studios. Check out how people deal with acoustic treatment in home studio builds. For instance the gearslutz.com "studio building/acoustics" subforum has many threads to geek out on.
I used to live right on the A10 highway into London. I move about 400 yds away and the traffic noise was a distant hum. I know that for some /. readers 400yds is beyond the pale when it comes to walking but around here parking spaces were like gold dust so people walk to the top of the street and take the bus, another 200yds there was the train station. 5 mins on the bus took you to a Tube Station.
Many of my neighbours at that time didn't have a car. They didn't need one.
More fool you for choosing to live where you do.
I'd rather be riding my '63 Triumph T120.
Although there are dozens of vendors selling what sound like promising solutions, there is only one solution that really works: more mass. Think of it as a physics problem.. sound waves energy transmitted through the air that cause parts of the structure (including the structure above and below) and environment (e.g. the air around you) to vibrate at a particular resonance. The only way to stop the noise is to stop the vibration. A popular option is to use double drywall with something like rockwool insulation between the studs. You can get away with either 2 x 1/2" drywall or 2 x 5/8" drywall with a small furring strip in between without sacrificing too much living space. Look into Green Glue as an additional way to dampen vibrations in that setup. You can also go for a detached wall or "room within a room," but that starts to get expensive to do right.
If you want to look at a "serious" solution ($$$$), you should try to find a sound mitigation contractor in your area. They can survey the room during different times of day and determine what the best solution is for your situation.
It's the bass that really pisses me off. It's like legalized assault on my ears.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
How and what, exactly, have you insulated, and where is your domicile in relation to the street?
Do you have sound dampening mats on the ceiling? If not, bear in mind that most houses and apartments are above street level, and most of the sound will be reflected off the ceiling. A layer of sound dampening material there should have the largest effect.
If you live low to the ground, sound insulating the walls that can see the street, rather than just outside walls would have a similar effect.
A few strategically placed plants or sound dividers - think cubicle walls but far less intrusive - can also help.
If you must go with a noise generator (which I don't recommend), try pink noise instead of white. The sounds from the street you try to mask out are going to be mostly low frequency, and white noise will mainly add more sound energy in the higher end of the spectrum.
http://xkcd.com/368/
Although I've replaced all windows, insulated, and caulked every square inch of the place,
I've been in houses on a busy streets where the street noise stops at the walls and windows. So, possibly, you did not go far enough. For example, there are windows and there are sound-reducing windows.
Maybe you need to re-evaluate what you did to keep the noise out before you embark upon a project to reduce or mask the noise inside the room.
inside with a window that is separated from the "real" outside wall by a few inches.
You will be surprised at how effective this is while leaving the original "look and feel" of the room.
I like microcars
Why? If you value peace and quiet and fresh air, move to the countryside and you won't have to insulate yourself from your surroundings. A city of 350,000 can't be that big that you would have a long commute when you needed to get into the city.
One of the last things I've ever bought from Sony were their ultra-expensive MDR-NC500D digital noise canceling headphones. I can't speak for other noice canceling headphones, but can definitely not recommend the ones by Sony. Don't get fooled by the advertisements, the actual noise canceling is pretty weak, does not have any effect on car noise, and is only noticable when you listen to music. (You can't use them just for canceling outside noise.) Moreover, they need power all the time in order to work at all. In my opinion, they are definitely not worth the money.
You won't be able to cancel out road noise for an entire room. Noise cancelling basically only works with headphones and in certain controlled industrial environments. For a room with road noise coming from different directions from moving sources with a moving listener it just won't work.
I'm afraid you are basically screwed. The only option is to move.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
What you need are multiple layers of different acoustical impedance; that is, hard and soft materials layered. Whenever there's an impedance mismatch, radiation gets reflected. An optical analog is a dielectric mirror. However, the really low frequencies are always a problem, and that's where more mass will help.
It will do literally nothing. Sound waves simply add. You can't get rid of sound waves by adding a bunch of random sound waves. The sound waves you don't want will pass right through. Now, if you simply have a white noise generator in your house, so that the ambient volume is higher, that may make it so that your ears have a harder time picking out specific sounds, which will, in turn, make it easier to ignore them.
Barring that, noise cancelling headphones or double-pane windows, as others have mentioned, are going to be your best bets. And double-pane windows are good for heating/cooling anyway.
As an aside, I'm also rather skeptical that noise cancellation for the entire apartment could ever be practical. The problem is the waveform bouncing off the various walls and other features of the apartment is going to be too complex to accurately measure or cancel. And then what about the sounds you do want to hear?
Unless you can read, in which case he said that most of the sound is coming through the windows. I'm not really surprised, since the vast majority of problems I have ever dealt with are related to windows.
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Headphones don't block noise and turning them up to block noise will damage your hearing. Amazon.com has ear protectors and they will help.
My adaption to fart mufflers and loud base was a sound detector and a machine gun. If the passing car got too loud, it would track and fire.
I havent built it yet, but one day...
I wouldnt shed a tear for these obnoxious people. They disturb hundreds of people daily, so fuck em.
And the motorcycles.
It's all about our narcissistic society. "Hey look at me! I'm special!"
When I was young I used to drive a car that made an annoying sound. I would simply crank up the radio, and the problem went away!
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Crank up the sound level on your stereo to really high levels and use it constantly to mask street noises. Magically, after a while, you won't need it any more.
Nate
We put all triple-pane in our house (Winnipeg, Canada) 5 years ago. We noticed the street noise almost disappear. (Not to mention the winter heating bills dropped by ~30%+)
Cost a pretty penny, about $13K for the whole house, but man was it worth it.
Trolling is a art,
but 30 years of tax cuts and underfunded police departments means the cops have better things to be doing. That's why you don't see these guys in wealthy parts of town.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Basically, all soundproofing is about weight. More weight=less noise gets through. To reduce the noise coming in through the windows you need to increase the thickness of the panes or their number. Double or triple glazing, or even two double-glazed panes in series with an air gap of ~15 cm in between. You'll also need to look at the window frames. Old steel or aluminium frames are excellent sound conductors.
You can go pretty far with this; my father did some consulting on a housing project near an air force base. They managed to get sufficient soundproofing that living next to F-16s taking off wasn't aggravating any more, but they spent as much on the soundproofing as the houses had cost to build.
A friend lived near the airport. His house was upgraded from double pane with storms to some better double/triple pane without storms. The new windows where supposed to be better at blocking the sound of the planes.
Summary of the story, the new "better" windows didn't work as good as the old windows with storm windows at blocking noise.
So if' you've already upgraded the windows, add storms to the outside. It's an easy thing to install, and they typically are under $100 a window. Install can be as easy as hold it up, and put a few screws in.
Added bonus, it can help reduce heating/cooling costs. (not enough savings to pay for them, but it won't hurt!)
If windows aren't the problem add more/better insulation, there aren't any limits if you don't need to see through it.
Those who can, do.
Did you buy the place?
Did you know it was noisy?
Are we a little sensitive?
Is this your homework assignment?
Why do you find yourself living at that place?
Have you considered other places?
With a population of 350K,(try 5M people for noise), what city is it?
Do you know of the personal impact of living in an area under constant noise generation?
Combine them with wax earplugs. I had the same problem there for a couple of years, and it was bliss to be able to just turn off all outside noise. Cheap too! I recommend Quies pure wax.
Headphones don't block noise and turning them up to block noise will damage your hearing.
So they do help :).
-- Cheers!
Soundproof drywall - 1 sheet is equal to between 8 and 16 sheets of regular drywall. Put it up, 2 sheets thick and no noise will come through your walls at all. Then build yourself a picture frame larger than your window. Back it with the soundproof drywall, put some random picture you like in it, and hang it over the window. If you want to move it to see out the window on occasion, hang it from tracks so it can slide back and forth, or put it on hinges.
Sirens and the like, are specifically designed to pierce through background noise. White noise works when blocking out conversations and other ambient noise... but sirens are a whole other animal.
So you're saying he should try replacing his windows with linux? It might just work, I've certainly seen installations where I couldn't get any sound to come through linux.
"Cheap and works every time. After a few minutes, you'll forget you have them in."
I'd suggest the same. I work shifts and needed them to be able to sleep during the day. Now I can't live without them.
Not only sleeping, but programming, reading and other stuff is great with plugs.
But you can't forget them after a few minutes in the beginning.
I tested 2 dozen of them and still I needed 3 weeks until they didn't hurt anymore. If you wear them 8-10 hours, your ears need to adapt.
It _will_ hurt for some time, but then it's heaven.
First you must measure how many decibel of attenuation you need. For this you need a sound level meter: If you don't have one at hand, a microphone + PC sound card + Audacity can be used as well (many apps for Android/Ipad are also available for this). Measure two sound spectra at your location: the first one with traffic noise present, the second one when you feel that background noise level is comfortable for you. The difference between the two spectra will tell you how much attenuation you need, and which frequencies need to be attenuated more.
Next compare the attenuation offered by each possible solutions (noise attenuationg windows, wall insulation, etc.) against the attenuation you need to achieve. If it isn't enough, move away, otherwise try installing the best solution you can afford.
Noise should be stopped before it enters the walls of your home: Once it is there, it can follow unsuspected paths to reach your ears (pipes, wall joints, etc.). The best way to stop it is to increase the acoustic impedance of external walls and windows.
Attenuation could be increased using viscoelastic materials like rubber: however they are best for attenuating high frequencies.
You don't get $$$ by being lucky unless you inherit it or you hit the lottery.
People are free to move and live where they want. I suppose you want them to stay and suffer the festering blight of poverty and crime? As far as "solving the problems", name one city that has ever solved the problem. You can't solve stupid and the people causing these problems are Stupid incarnate.
I live outside a city and pay no city taxes. I pay county taxes for fire and police (County Sheriff), and a Hospital District and we have our own water district. I take no resources from the cities nearby, but I do spend my money there. When we pay off the bonds on our district, the city plans on annexing my neighborhood. So then I'll get to pay city taxes and get bum fucking nothing in return except a library card. That's when I move further away.
You people who want everyone to live crammed together in some kind of supposed utopia of harmony and efficiency are nuts. City living has it's advantages and its drawbacks and people are free to choose city, suburban or county lifestyles. Who the hell are you to say anything about their choice?
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
...might quiet things down out there.
Wrong. Headphones DO block noise, if they look like these.
No, earbuds don't block noise, but those aren't "headphones".
Back OT, however, the answer is triple glazing and lining the outside wall with Noisekiller - which is a polymer foam/lead/foam composite which can silence the sound of a marine Diesel engine in a steel enclosure.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
The effort I had to put in at school in the 1950s learning to add, multiple and divide pounds, shillings and pence was totally wasted. We actually had a maths teacher who thought metrication was a Bad Thing because it would reduce the ability to do mental arithmetic. What he didn't see was that you only really need the ability to do mental arithmetic if you have to use a dysfunctional system of weights and measures.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
http://chomikuj.pl/Enouqh/E-booki/txt/Arthur+C.+Clarke/Arthur+C.+Clarke+-+Silence+Please,71861083.txt/
First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win. -Gandhi
I mean, obviously, moving is your best option. Cities are loud places. Although a city with 350k is pretty small, if you're living in the center of the place, you're going to have to deal with noise. If you haven't gotten used to it yet (which is kind of surprising, really), your long-term solution is to save up some money until you can afford to move to the 'burbs, or out to the country. Or to a smaller town.
That said, I lived in a bigger city (600k or so) in a bad neighborhood (so there were cars and sirens all night) for a little while. Heavy drapes help, with the added benefit that people can't see in your windows. Sirens are made to be heard, so you might have a hard time really insulating yourself from them, but as for just general road noise and city sounds, I'd move your office into an internal room, i.e. one that doesn't have any windows, and that preferably has rooms with doors between it and the outside. As others have said, you could certainly install double- or triple-pane windows, but at that point you're better off spending the money on a down payment on a house or condo somewhere other than the busiest part of the city. Plants, bookshelves, basically stuff to get in the way and create more surfaces between the windows and you seem to be somewhat effective in reducing sound. Also, since you won't be able to get rid of the sound, you might try doing stuff like leaving the tv or radio on in the background, just as a low-cost "white-noise" alternative.
But, really, the core issue here is not how thick your windows need to be to live in the middle of an urban area and not hear anything. It's why you would locate yourself somewhere that you're not going to be able to work, or, the way it sounds, live comfortably. I don't know what you do for a living, but, if cost is an issue, a long-term solution might be to relocate to a cheaper area nearby, where you're still close enough to meet with clients in the city if need be, but you're not in a noisy area. Based on where you're posting and what you're posting, I'm assuming you're not a glass blower or a mime or anything, so I'd also point out that the wonder of telecommuting is that you can do it from quite far away...
This unbiased moderation brought to you by the Porcine Aviation Group!
Broadcast studios always have double windows, but the panes are at an angle to each other. Placing them parallel to each other makes them more likely to resonate with each other.
Bruce Perens.
Wait... would that actually do anything?
Are you saying that a curtain of sound (perhaps not even directed so that you can hear it) inhibits the passage of other sounds through it? I don't know anything about acoustics, but this seems untrue.
I rent. Quiet street, no traffic. If I so choose, a 1 minute walk gets me to the nearest intersection, where I can listen to cars and radios, if I so choose.
I rent. If I want, a simple phone call to one person ends my relationship and I can move. If you own, now what? Agents and notaries and taxes and blah blah blah... What a waste of time and energy.
Also, architecturally, I've seen some buildings on busy streets in Montreal that have angled windows. I suspect that having two parallel rows of straight facades on either side of a street creates an echo chamber as sound reflects back and forth between two buildings.
Look at this.
Headphones don't block noise and turning them up to block noise will damage your hearing.
Amazon.com has ear protectors and they will help.
Actually some headphones do block noise, by having a mic and playing the reverse sound (180 degrees out of phase).
But in any event, living with headphones on is not an answer.
The sound is coming thru the windows. Even dual pane windows won't help, they simply act as a drum.
Three pane windows help some.
What is needed is a dual pane window where the panes are not parallel. Tipping the top of the outer
pane outward de-tunes the drum, and reduces sound transmission by quite a bit. The further you can tip it
the better is works.
It has the additional effect of cutting insolation, while actually increasing insulation.
Any good galzier could do this for you and there are starting to be some commercial models available,
but custom built is the best way to achieve this.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
Did you come from single- or double-pane windows?
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
Other than the large living room window which was double pane, everything was the original single pane from 1974.
Trolling is a art,
Triple pane really doesn't do that much for sound deadening according to the Canadian Building Digest.
Tripple panes with dissimilar glass thickness works better,
But having a different type of glass on the inside works much better.
Typically they use laminated glass for the soundproufing inner pane, with glas laminated to plastic pane which dampens transmitted vibration.
There are commercial windows available for this. These solutions seldom work where you intend to open the window to let in a breeze.
If you don't want to buy entirely new windows there are simple and less costly interior add-on panes. This preserves the ability to open the window.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
Never heard of this one and while it sounds plausible, I find its effectiveness limited, due to the typically very small angles achievable (if the window should be openable). What I read in a building acoustics book is that that glass panes of different thickness are helpful, because they act as mass-spring-mass systems and their pass-through filter frequency will be different. Ideally there is an air gap between the panes, but multiple panes are useful too. For example, 4mm glass + 10mm air + 2x3mm glass can be a good window choice.
Also, insulation will be worse with planes that are not parallel; by necessity it means that on average you have a significantly larger air gap between the two planes, and the internal air (or noble gas mixture) is better able to circulate, reducing insulation. There is a reason why windows are the way they are, at least in Europe (I found the prevalence of single-glazed windows in the UK and the US appalling from an acoustic and environmental viewpoint, their insulation capability is a small fraction of that of double-glazed ones, often worsened by gaping holes).
Admit it - You put loud exhausts on your cars and trucks because you have to compensate for your tiny penis. Why else? Or is it just that you like to annoy people? You want "raw power"? Try flying a military jet. As to "freedom", how about your understanding that others lose their freedom to peace and quiet because you're an asshole. You want loud noise? Put a stereo on your bike (undoubtedly a Harley piece of crap) and some ear phones. You get the "loud" you want without annoying other people.
Less than two weeks, fat ass.
I did the same about 5 years ago. Triple pane, xenon(?) gas filled, with UV glass on the outside pane. Luckily I live on a relatively quiet road so noise isn't much of a problem to begin with, but times like now when the temperature is about 70F and I have all the doors and windows open reminds me of how it was before. With doors and windows closed I can rarely hear any outside noise. I did it for insulation reasons, but after it was done I was amazed at how much it eliminated outside noise.
Gas filled triple panes made a *very* big difference for me. Several friends of mine did their windows and say the same thing. The difference is night and day. No doubt about it.
Although they're less effective against things like engine noise, I found shutters helpful for reducing the nighttime intrusion of city centre noise. If you've got some reasonably dense timber board, try covering your window openings with it (inside or outside depending on which is more suitable) and see what difference it makes (you get an additional air gap before the glazing plus the sound absorbency of the board). I don't suggest you board up your windows for good (though, this being Slashdot, I don't discount it as an option), but if it makes a substantial difference you can install something more permanently that hinges and folds to give you access to daylight when required.
Also, if you live on the top floor, noise may be coming in through the roof so insulation above the ceiling may help.
Keep It Simple Stupid :-)
I'm fairly sensitive to outside noise, and my solution for years has been a simple electric fan. It generates plenty of local white noise which drowns out all the noise from outside.
Works great with no need for parabolic reflectors or active noise cancellation or anything else that might require a DARPA research project. :-)