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DNA Analysis Probes the End of Human-Neanderthal Sex
An anonymous reader writes "Modern Europeans may have interbred with Neanderthals as recently as 37,000 years ago, after modern humans with advanced stone tools expanded out of Africa, according to a new study. In an attempt to understand why the Neanderthals are more closely related to people from outside of Africa, researchers from Harvard and the Max Planck Institute estimated that while the last sex between Neanderthals and modern humans may have occurred 37,000 to 86,000 years ago, it is most likely that it occurred 47,000 to 65,000 years ago."
raped my great-great-.......great grandaddy! and he liked it!
the last sex between Neanderthals and modern humans may have occurred 37,000 to 86,000 years ago
Maria Shriver begs to differ.
And that's still better than most Slashdot readers.
Humanity never had successful reproduction with sheep, but I wouldn't go as far as to claim as a result that we've never had sex with sheep.
I do wonder what changed after the alleged period when occasional reproduction occurred.
Except that Neanderthals were also homo Sapiens. But they were more primitive in their technology, for whatever reason.
Pick your study. This one reported on in the same web site claims Researchers concluded that the similarities in the DNA are due to common ancestry and that Neanderthals and modern humans weren't inbreeding.
So you are telling me, that some couple has been without sex longer than Maria and Arnold . . . (ba-doom boom!)
Technically they are considered a subspecies of Homo Sapiens, Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, or as a separate species altogether, Homo neanderthalensis.
Except that Neanderthals were also homo Sapiens. But they were more primitive in their technology, for whatever reason.
Maybe, that's debatable.
Either way, they were either Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis or Homo Neanderthalensis, but most certainly not Homo Sapiens Sapiens, which is our species. They differed not only in culture and technology, they were a separate species.
And yes, different, but closely related species, can still interbreed and have viable offspring. That definition of species is not used anywhere above high school biology, because things get a lot more complicated once you take into account ring species.
Technically they are considered a subspecies of Homo Sapiens, Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, or as a separate species altogether, Homo neanderthalensis.
Given the recent data that they're our recent ancestors, only the former makes sense.
No, this is the information that the Nazi race scientists had supressed for so long, that the Africans were actually the purer race.
Alternate title: "Scientists Discover Marriage"
There may have been a lot of sex without conception, and even a number of later Neanderthal-European hookups which did conceive. If the entire Neanderthal branch of evolution died out, it's equally possible that other, later branches, of Neanderthal-Euro stepkids died out, or used contraception. But I guess this gets the word "sex" in the headline, which is probably key. The study shows the last sex which produced surviving progeny which has been blood sampled, not necessarily evidence of the last snoo-snoo.
Gently reply
Given the recent data that they're our recent ancestors, only the former makes sense.
Not really. There wasn't a lot of genetic exchange even though the populations of the two groups lived by each other for up to 200,000 years.
I don't think that taxonomy has been in use for a long time. I haven't heard any researcher refer to Neandertals as a subspecies of H. sapens for many years. Nor would it make much sense considering they are likely both daughter species of H. erectus.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Did I miss that post?
Rgds
Damon
http://m.earth.org.uk/
Except that Neanderthals were also homo Sapiens. But they were more primitive in their technology, for whatever reason.
Because they knew what a real woman needed. Real men, with proper real tools, solid Mousterian hand axes. Real woman has no need for the effeminate Aurignacian blades, those are for pussies.
Ezekiel 23:20
I've dated a few chicks that thought I was a Neanderthal. I still got lucky though. Chicks just dig furrow brows.
Oh, yeah! Wise guy, huh? Woob woob woob woob! Nyuk! Nyuk!
I suppose it must have been about 50,000 years ago when the Neanderthals really started to let themselves go, remember?
Baboons are cute.
A really interesting Slashdot phenomenon is while attempting to be all scientificy and stuff and being strong advocates of Darwinian natural selection, don't seem to really grasp the implications of the concept. No species tries to maintain equilibrium. Equilibrium is forced upon them.
Could you provide evidence to the neanderthals contraceptive practices and motivation?
the cast of the television series "Jersy Shore" continue to procreate, I for one as a scientist cannot in good conscience rule definitively on the end of human-neanderthal intercourse.
Good people go to bed earlier.
That's a nice story. Unfortunately it's got too many scientific errors to be science fiction but sounds too sciencey to be general fiction. I don't think you'll find a publisher willing to take it. Maybe you could write it as being mostly sex scenes and bill it as a romance?
What makes me laugh is the changes that have occurred in artists illustrations of Neanderthals: Before dna connection made: Ugly, primitive - almost thuggish. After dna connection: Intelligent looking, caring for others - could almost be your old uncle... (not mine though;-)
An intelligent one could.
Let me know when one turns up.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
no.. going dyke is usually the result of too much feminism in her diet.
It has been published. I've read it. Might be in the Apeman Spaceman collection.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Why only last night, but it was really dark and I was pretty wasted. I'm ashamed to tell you the rest. I think the scratches are going to heal pretty well though.
On y va, qui mal y pense!
but...you're not correct since the nazi's never made the claim that their superiority was derived from purity. they argued that since they were superior they should keep themselves pure. which means your statement is made up bullshit and you are a liar.
If two individuals give fertile descendency, aren't they of the same species?
I thought it had been established that Neanderthals had slightly better tools, technology if you want, than contemporary Humans. They were just loners and didn't build societies, and only lived in small family groups, and eventually disapperared as a destinct species.
Nice strawman but what do the Nazi's have to do with the basic facts of the situation? Europeans have Neanderthal DNA (Neander Valley is in Germany btw) and have fared far better than the pure "humans" in the African subcontinent. Deal with it.
If two individuals give fertile descendency, aren't they of the same species?
Welcome to the Species Problem.
tl;dr - It's complicated.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
Neanderthal means Neander Valley in German. I used to live near Dusseldorf which is also close to this valley in Germany. There is a really nice train ride to get to it, there's a nice nature trail and a museum with some displays of Neanderthal bones and artifacts. Neanderthals could probably interbreed with modern humans even if they were a new species. There are inter-special hybrids, such as mules. But they are usually sterile if the genome is too divergent. Neanderthal DNA is believed to be in our modern genome too. So they could not have been to genetically different than we are. Species are somewhat arbitrarily assigned anyway. It is also commonly believed by many that they were lesser mentally developed and brute beasts. The average cranial capacity of Neanderthal skulls exceeds that of modern humans. There's a lot of controversy surrounding their intellectual ability. Especially their language skills. The hyoid bone in your throat allows you to produce the sounds of modern language. They have found Neanderthal hyoid bones which were well developed. This has deepened that controversy. Just like there is great physical diversity among domestic dogs, why couldn't the same apply to homo sapiens? There is speculation that they were not immune to some of the infectious diseases that we had spread to their population. That this might have been the cause of their extinction and not our superiority. This would also explain why contact with them invariably led to extinction.
Oh, yeah! Wise guy, huh? Woob woob woob woob! Nyuk! Nyuk!
Which has always been a marvel to me. Even in the 1930's there was enough known about genetics and an established theory of speciation and natural selection that should have enable people to recognize that if anything purity is no virtue at all.
Its not good for our dogs and its not good for us. Mutations are one way to gain improved forms but the direct mixing of existing genetic material followed by the selection process is a much faster way. Blood lines that were mixed before the neolithic era, probably would have the surviving individuals expressing the most robust genetic material, from all the pre-modern man and related species.
Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
No *you* lie! Posting on Slashdot and maintaining that you have a wife. And having sex with her and everything! Tss.
Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
If two individuals give fertile descendency, aren't they of the same species?
Well, yes and/or no (i.e. it's complicated). After all, canid hybrids are often fertile (at least, with their parent species or a like hybrid), but wolves, coyotes, dingoes, and jackals are generally considered to be different species. Similarly, felid hybrids such as ligers are fertile with other ligers and with both lion and tiger mates.
Check also the European Herring Gull and the Lesser Black-backed Gull for a ring distribution of species which are mutually fertile with their neighbors, but whose end-units overlap in range and are not mutually fertile. There have also been a few cases of a female mule being fertile when mated with either horse or donkey, despite the species having different numbers of chromosomes.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
Only when it's forced on it. If a species had infinite resources and infinite space, then it could expand indefinitely, and that would be the smart thing to do. In those circumstances an equilibrium would be pointless.
Now the question is: Do we have limited or (virtually) unlimited resources? If our technology advances enough that we are able to reach other star systems, then our resources will be nearly infinite. Even just mining our entire solar system would set us up nicely for centuries to come. So why go for an equilibrium now?
Its still unclear how different Neanderthals may have appeared, but probably not that different. They could probably talk, but maybe not as well as cromagnon. They may have appeared more "robust", ie. muscular. Probably both of are races were your typical ape "horndogs" willing to have sex with anything that looked decent at certain times. Most of the apes and modern humans are like this.
Yes, but isn't it generally considered that if they DO mate and produce fertile offspring "in the wild", they're the same species? Unless there's limited-interfertility issue, which can't be established now.
Considering our hominid ancestors did interbreed, most consequent approach would be to call them a single species.
Fixed that for you.
If whites did so poorly since the beginning of civilization why do half of the world's people speak a language based on proto-indo-european? could it be that the aryans had the most advanced political and technological systems long before anyone else? that's what the archaeological evidence supports. deal with it.
Yeah, yeah. I wish everybody did things my way, too.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
the argument could be that mixed heritage offers the greatest chance for development.. 'purity' only leads to decay.
Correct.
I believe another word for 'purity' is 'inbreeding.'
Since all my female friends seem to be going dike?
They're doing that 'cause they don't need men on the planet anymore:
Human Sperm from Stem Cells
That is not the biological definition of a species. That's the cartoon definition. The biological definition is far more nuanced.
For instance, coyotes and wolves are considered separate species and yet they do interbreed.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Here's proof: The Many Faces of Ron Perlman"
No *you* lie! Posting on Slashdot and maintaining that you have a wife.
When he says 'wife' he's referring to his "One Million Years B.C." poster of Raquel Welch on the basement wall.
This also explains the 'Neanderthal' fantasy.
Could you provide evidence to the neanderthals contraceptive practices and motivation?
Practices: ...and ladies going out on the town with their cock-blocking friend, the Velociraptor.
1. There was the "IUR" (intra-uterine rock)
2. Not waxing their chest (women only)
3. Condoms (made of boar's hide)
4. "Not tonight, I have a headache" (...from you hitting me with that club)
5.
Motivation:
"I don't want to bring a child into a world that's so overcrowded with people.
Like, we just saw someone by the watering hole two months ago."
The argument hasn't just been made, it has been demonstrated. Small breeding populations lead to a decrease in viability. Diversity is very good.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Oh, for some mod points! Kudos, sir, kudos!
Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
i can see neanderthal in that just as much as in arnold
unless your comment is more of a morality judgment on his actions, in that case WHOOSH on me
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
please
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
I think your sense of time is a little off. Also slave trade was one of Timbuktu's major industries, sounds like a real nice place.
... Before that, Northern and Western Europe was a backwater and had been since before the dawn of civilization.
Ever heard of Alexander of Macedon? You know...the guy who conquered half the world in the 4th century BC? Yeah, that was over two millennia ago. Maybe you should go take an Intro to Western Civ class, clown.
And when did Alexander of Macedon ever set foot in Northern or Western Europe? He himself thought he had conquered half the world, but we have learned a little more geography in the last 2400 years. Most of Greece, most of Turkey, part of the eastern half of the Middle East and Pakistan is not half the world.
Maybe Ringling Brothers is holding auditions AC.
Second class citizen of the New Gilded Age
To expand on MightyMartian has to say even the most advanced parts of Europe had no technological advantage over East Asia until about 1700, had no economic advantage over China until about 1800. The per capita GDPs of England and China were the same until the Industrial Revolution. Europe only demonstrated any sort of cultural dominance over China in 1839 thanks to the new weaponry and supply capability of the Industrial Revolution. Those "advanced" Aryans sure were lazy for a long, long time.
Second class citizen of the New Gilded Age
Well, so little genetic cross over over such a long time indicates a good chance of some sort of limited interfertility issue.
Even up to the Middle Ages Europe had no real technical advantage over the East Asian civilizations.
I'd like to point out the importance of (quality) Steel. Clip of a Katana vs a broadsword (related discussion here). Also, European Maritime History is worth a mention.
Man blir trött av att gå och göra ingenting.
I don't think that taxonomy has been in use for a long time. I haven't heard any researcher refer to Neandertals as a subspecies of H. sapens for many years. Nor would it make much sense considering they are likely both daughter species of H. erectus.
Right. Genetic evidence shows an ancient lineage split with Neanderthals around 700-800,000 years ago, and modern humans coming into existence only around 250,000 years ago.
Second class citizen of the New Gilded Age
At some point maybe, but 'modern' humans had a tendency to rapidly innovate/improve their technology while Neanderthals apparently did not. Early 'modern' humans also didn't build societies, instead only living in small family groups.
produce viable offspring. This proves that if man can stick his dick in it, he will fuck it.
"You'll get nothing, and you'll like it!"
at least from what i saw.
Everybody except the Africans seems to have gotten some of the Neanderthal genes, so that says that the mixing of genes happened early or often or both. Maybe the low mix of Neanderthal genes is just due to the late-out-of-Africa people being more numerous or their genes being more advantageous. But the Neanderthal genes that are left are probably adaptive in some way. Possibly in dealing with cold weather, limited sunlight or non-tropical immune challenges. I read that there are a good number of possibly Neanderthal genes in European immune systems, and the Neanderthals had lived in more varied climates including the north during the last Ice Age so they were probably lighter-skinned and lighter haired than Africans, who were probably dark like they are today. Maybe all the genes for features that are atypical of Africans like light hair, light eyes and straight hair come through the Neanderthal lineage.
And they might have gotten that DNA in a few isolated cases. Keep in mind that there weren't many humans for much of our past, especially after the alleged Toba supervolcano eruption in Indonesia about 70k years ago (which incidentally is the older part of the range for DNA influence from Neanderthals). And as far as the researchers were able to tell, there's about 20k years at the end where no genetic exchange occurred.
So the neanderthal's are the guys and girls from Battlestar Galactica after all as seen in the last episode. They had sex with the humans on earth and we are the descendants as a result.
http://books.google.com.mt/books?id=iK1YbKrNRcoC&lpg=PA57&ots=KmOIWXGCTv&dq=neanderthal%20battlestar%20galactica&pg=PA56#v=onepage&q=neanderthal%20battlestar%20galactica&f=false
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Exactly. The species problem really isn't that hard, in a nutshell it's what the expert(s) in that field say it is. Sometimes the difference in species is a tiny dot of color, other times to very dissimilar forms are the same species, but these are edge cases, in general if there's a way to tell two things apart, they're different species; what's often left out is the temporal notion of this - species change and grade into each other all the time. H. sapiens and Neanderthal met all the requirements for being different species.
Need Mercedes parts ?
No, the Neanderthals liked technology, but invented patents so that Ug got exclusive rights to fire and refused to license it to Og. There was also some nastiness over whether the stone tools could have rounded edges.
Humans freely ripped off Neanderthal technology. The Neanderthals tried to take them to court, but the humans had not yet evolved enough to understand the concept of intellectual property rights so just ignored them.
Eventually the Neanderthals consumed all of their resources in a massive lawsuit that left the earth scorched and the humans scratching their heads and telling themselves that whatever happened in the future, they wouldn't ever be so stupid as to repeat those mistakes.
Sigs are so 1990s. No way would I be seen dead with one.
> But they were more primitive in their technology, for whatever reason.
I disagree. If anything, the Neanderthals liked technology TOO MUCH for their own good. Humans were content to attack with spears in large organized groups. Neanderthals fought back as individuals armed to the teeth with surprisingly sophisticated weapons. Humans tended the fields and used primitive axes to cut firewood. Neanderthals spent half the summer trying to make a better plow and improve the ergonomics of their axe.
So Neanderthals were the first nerds?
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
And a species not slowing down its growth does not beam that it's not intelligent. It just means that it can still grow.