The Long Reach of US Extradition

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The Long Reach of US Extradition

Posted by timothy on Friday October 19, 2012 @05:19PM from the blue-passports-money-and-guns dept.

CuteSteveJobs writes "The New Matilda reports how the U.S. is now able to extradite people for minor offences, and asks why foreign governments so willingly give up their nationals to the U.S. to 'face justice' over minor crimes committed outside U.S. borders? Lawyer Kellie Tranter writes, 'the long arm of the Government is using criminal enforcement powers to enforce commercial interests at the behest of corporations and their lobbyists.' A former NSW Chief Judge said it was bizarre 'that people are being extradited to the U.S. to face criminal charges when they have never been to the U.S. and the alleged act occurred wholly outside the U.S.' He said although copyright violations are a great problem, a country 'must protect its nationals from being removed from their homeland to a foreign country merely because the commercial interests of that foreign country.' Australia recently 'streamlined' its laws to make extradition to the U.S. even easier."

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There's a good dog by walshy007 · 2012-10-19 17:23 · Score: 5, Insightful

Australia has been the US's lap dog for quite a few decades now. They say jump, we say 'how high?'.
1. Re:There's a good dog by jonwil · 2012-10-19 17:27 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  ok, so who do I vote for at the next Federal Election that isn't going to bow down to the US and to big US corporations?
2. Re:There's a good dog by Dahamma · 2012-10-19 17:35 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  Obama.
3. Re:There's a good dog by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-19 17:43 · Score: 2
  
  It doesn't matter, as long as it's not Labor and not Liberal. It's the only way to send a message that you're not happy with either of them. Sadly, very few people ever do this.
4. Re:There's a good dog by Dahamma · 2012-10-19 17:56 · Score: 2
  
  Whoosh.
5. Re:There's a good dog by camperdave · 2012-10-19 17:58 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  I don't think they have Republicans or Democrats in Australia.
  
  --
  When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
6. Re:There's a good dog by FirephoxRising · 2012-10-19 18:06 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  Some Democrats (not like US ones, party severely damaged some time ago by defections and scandals) , there were Republicans, I think the party officially still exists, no actual politicians though. The major parties are Labour (more left wing) and Liberals (who oddly enough are very un-liberal conservatives). Then there are the greens and quite a few independents, and the National party which is mostly an appendage of the Liberals, mainly in inland country areas. None of them seem to have much backbone in foreign policy.
7. Re:There's a good dog by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-19 19:06 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  Vote Pirate.
  http://pirateparty.org.au
8. Re:There's a good dog by aNonnyMouseCowered · 2012-10-19 19:17 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  "The major parties are Labour (more left wing) and Liberals (who oddly enough are very un-liberal conservatives)."
  Left and Right doesn't mean shit anymore in any of the major English-speaking countries. The mainstream parties all seem to favor copy monopolies and increased surveillance of citizens. UK's Labour was a willing partner in Bush Jr's Iraq misadventure. I also remember reading in the BBC how the party was actually disappointed over the Conservatives' decision to block security "hacker" Gary McKinnon's extradition to the US.
9. Re:There's a good dog by Aaron+B+Lingwood · 2012-10-19 23:25 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  Pirate Party Australia currently does not have the number of exclusive members required to register with the Australian Electoral Commission. This status is unlikely to change before the next election.
  We do have a handful of more liberal minor parties that one can vote for, though most Aussies have never heard of them. Two that spring to mind are the Liberal Democratic Party and Australian Sex Party. Of course there is always The Greens, but who wants to undo centuries of human achievement and plunge back into the dark ages.
  
  --
  [Rent This Space]
10. Re:There's a good dog by rmstar · 2012-10-19 23:55 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  ok, so who do I vote for at the next Federal Election that isn't going to bow down to the US and to big US corporations?
  The big parties everywhere reflect what they can get away with. If you want to change something, you have to infiltrate them. Which means going to local party meetings, arguing, etc. Just hoping that someone with the right ideas comes along so you can vote for him/her does not work.
  Much of what happens depends on someone doing it, and if there is nobody to do it, it just doesn't happen. If you want change - make it happen. Organize anti-extradition rallies, generate awareness, etc.
  Everybody blames the politicians, but you must as well blame the people who expect someone else to fix it for them.
11. Re:There's a good dog by jonwil · 2012-10-20 00:11 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Only problem is that its getting harder and harder to organize protests and rallies without being harassed by the cops.
  Its also hard to explain these sorts of issues to normal people or to convince them that its an issue that they need to care about.
  Also, as we have seen many times over the years, just because "the people" want something doesn't mean the government will listen.
12. Re:There's a good dog by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-20 00:40 · Score: 2
  
  The funny thing is Obama corruptly sold the vice presidency to the copyright industry, and many people here, like last time, will completely and utterly ignore that, so the other guy won't win.
13. Re:There's a good dog by flyneye · 2012-10-20 00:42 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  I was just thinking " Good God! Elect me! I'll fix that crap and so much else to take us back to several states under the Constitution.
  We will start by gutting the Uniform Commercial Code and eliminating anything not Constitutional and patching it with patriotic goodness as we go.
  We will cut the NEED for so much defense spending by pulling troops back from all over the world and concentrate on defending our borders as prescribed Constitutionally. No more world cop for corporate interests.
  We will eliminate the income tax and tariff imports as prescribed. Let the trade wars begin,you can keep your cheap plastic crap,Walmart is killing the little businesses anyway. Any U.S. corporation OUTSIDE the borders will pay EXTRA tax, since it can afford it. We need to make up for losses from outsourcing.
  I'll send the Chinese a few dollars a month and send them any living criminals who made illegal deals and treaties during the Repubmocrat regime.
  When the Repubmocrat congress and senate rebel or try to lame duck the Presidency, I will pull the C.I.A. files on their activities behind the scenes and the "treason purges" will begin. A fair trial and a decent hanging, televised from the White House Lawn, rose garden side. I suspect after the troublemakers are gone we can have a session without unnecessary drama. Illegal aliens OUT, SRS now fills those jobs with the able who are now cut off from assistance. Work or starve. Non violent Federal criminals are freed and made to pay restitution either by garnishment or in the event of unemployment, on a road crew for U.S. highways.(another way to save money on the overpaid 'tards just standing around watching a few overpaid 'tards work). I would urge the several states to do the same.
  The government will quit protecting people from themselves. It's not social Darwinism, it's a human right to be left alone to do what you want as long as you harm no one else. Just be careful out there and use some sense, some won't and will take themselves out of the gene pool.
  Churches, whose mission statement direct from Christs mouth, is to care for the poor, will take over that part of SRS duties. The Christians already pay a 10% "God tax" just for stuff like that, no need to dip twice from their pockets or even once from an atheist or other non church goer. I notice churches currently doing this don't require profession of faith to receive aid. Not a problem.
  Yes, I plan quite an interesting eventful administration with the prize of a bright future at the end of it. I will do it inside of 4 years and don't care to be re-elected, unless of course you just HAVE to have me.
  Now get out there and vote for ol' fly.
  In short; we are going to mind our own business from now on, be a good neighbor to the rest of the world, eliminate corruption and make a bright future instead of what we have.
  
  --
  *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
14. Re:There's a good dog by nedlohs · 2012-10-20 00:45 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  The Liberals are not "very un-liberal conservatives" they are for economic liberalism (when compared with the labor party anyway) hence the name. If you want to use the American definition of liberal (social liberalism - center left) rather than the Australian definition (economic liberalism - center right) then obviously the names of Australian political parties won't make sense.
15. Re:There's a good dog by NicBenjamin · 2012-10-20 00:45 · Score: 2
  
  In an Aussie context "Republican" does not refer to a party, it refers to the political position that the Queen should be fired. Most Aussie pols in both parties are Republicans in this sense of the word. According to Aussie Republic activists, so are the people, but there actually a referendum on the issue fairly recently (late 90s), which they lost.
  They claim it's because the Australian people want a US-Style, directly-elected, politically powerful President, whereas the pols just want to rename the un-elected, virtually powerless Governor-General President. I suspect they're deluding themselves.
  Regardless, since then the monarchy's gained popularity in pretty much the entire Commonwealth, so I doubt that they will get another shot at firing the Queen. King Charles III will probably win the inevitable referendum after he inherits.
16. Re:There's a good dog by eisonlyme · 2012-10-20 02:34 · Score: 2
  
  just because "the people" want something doesn't mean the government will listen.
  I may be a bit cynical here, but I generally think people respond to hype and fall for shite, an example but by no means a good one is just looking at the amount of people who fall for fake fb stories and get all riled up about it when it's not even true. This actually annoys the hell out of me. But I digress...
  The point I was trying to make is just because the people want it doesn't mean it's right...Almost everyone in the US I meet tells me how they get taxed too much when in reality out of the OECD countries they are 4th lowest out of 33 countries OECD Tax rates ..just ahead of Mexico, Chile and Turkey..they want to pay less taxes but is that really the right thing for the country? NYT-why US People are wrong on tax rates
  I could go on with examples...my daughter wants to eat nothing but cheesecake and coke...doesn't mean it's the right thing for her(or the people)...
  Links are example only to back up my argument that many people really don't know what's good for them, feel free to add counter links as why people know best and I'd be happy to discuss :)
  
  --
  I'm not going to lie..things with clock speeds turn me on...
17. Re:There's a good dog by History's+Coming+To · 2012-10-20 03:37 · Score: 2
  
  As with Dem/Rep party politics, the UK's Labour and Conservative parties will always disagree with each other on principle, unless it's to give condolences to the family of dead soldiers, children etc. Pick a policy - there's a high chance that both parties will have both supported and criticised it at some point in the last decade, with a strong correlation to whoever was suggesting it at the time. Neither party is remotely concerned with evidence based policy while they're in a position to have a go at the other side, it's essentially just two groups of children trying to shout each other down.
  
  --
  Please consider this account deleted, I just can't be bothered with the spam anymore.
18. Re:There's a good dog by Xest · 2012-10-20 03:41 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  "I also remember reading in the BBC how the party was actually disappointed over the Conservatives' decision to block security "hacker" Gary McKinnon's extradition to the US."
  The Tories have once again reached the point where they're openly acting as "the nasty party" once more, and are so confident in the fact they've got another 2 - 3 years of being able to fuck out country about at will now the Lib Dems are willing patsys despite the Torys not fulfilling any of their obligations to the Lib Dems in the coalition agreement.
  But despite this, I'm not going to be able to bring myself to vote for Labour next election, I'm unsure if I'll even vote at all this time as I'm really at a loss as to who to vote for (we don't get anything like the pirate party in our constituency). The reason I couldn't vote Labour is for precisely the sort of thing you mention - there are certain things from their time in power that were key reasons I and many others were glad to see them go, yet they haven't recognised their faults and denounced them.
  The ID card database is still very much something Labour wants, they still think they were right to spend all that time trying to extradite McKinnon, and they still think they were right about the Digital Economy Act, they still think they were right to throw as many benefits around left right and centre as they did to the point of near bankrupting the country, they still think they did the right thing in blocking all accountability about the torture they let the security services be complicit in under their rule, and they still think things like the interception modernisation programme, and censorship laws were a good idea.
  I think Labour are guaranteed a majority or coalition next election because of the public distaste of the Tories now, but I also think that whilst it means we can say goodbye to the vocal Tory right, borderline far-right that seems to be getting it's own way despite only comprising a minority of the Tory party, it means we're going to end up fighting the same old shit we did last time - ID cards, censorship and so on.
19. Re:There's a good dog by CanEHdian · 2012-10-20 04:05 · Score: 2
  
  Pirate Party Australia currently does not have the number of exclusive members required to register with the Australian Electoral Commission. This status is unlikely to change before the next election.
  And what can be done about it? Are there any laws about how you are allowed to find new members? The way I see it, it can all be done electronically, and for the digitally disenfrenchised, all you have to do is carry around copies of the party Constitution, the Member Application Form, and envelopes with the address and a stamp.
  NOTE: the party itself should scrutinize it's officers with a fine-tooth comb, one accusation of right-extermism (favourite) or any kind of illegal activity (drunk driving, etc.) and popular support will go down fast. The hardest thing is to get momentum. Once you have the momentum, getting members is easy: when people start believing it can actually change anything.
  
  --
  When the copyright term is "forever minus a day", live every day like it's the last.
20. Re:There's a good dog by fustakrakich · 2012-10-20 04:47 · Score: 2
  
  The Liberals are not "very un-liberal conservatives" they are for economic liberalism...
  The most accurate term for them is 'neoliberal', and it also fits both major factions of the US's ruling party, and most all of Europe where right wing nationalism doesn't rule. It's people like Reagan, Thatcher, Blair, Harper, etc. Real social liberals that stand up against capricious, demented authority have virtually no real power or influence of any kind anywhere in the world. They are nothing more than figments of imagination.
  
  --
  “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
21. Re:There's a good dog by eisonlyme · 2012-10-20 06:27 · Score: 2
  
  Understand all you say about taxes, it was just a point that sometimes people don't understand the importance of certain topics and ideas. You can't pay no taxes and expect the world.
  I also believe in the US it is more the tax breaks to the rich/business not the taxes going to the rich which has been the major issues (Lived in the US for 3 years, I'm from Australia, recently moved back 4 weeks ago to Oz).
  That is my understanding from talking to the general population from big cities to small towns, I had to travel a lot for work to all kinds of places and almost everywhere I went people complained about paying tax, most had no idea they pay less then most developed nations, they all thought they had one of the highest tax rates. But you are spot on for why people think that, because they don't see where it's going and see what seems like their taxes feeding the rich...but that would be uninformed logic which is what my point is. Yes a lot is 'wasted', but a lot is for good and if there is an increase it increases both, that is just the nature of the system, which is also not going to change soon, the USA has a very complex tax system.
  Though the example of my daughter I think is a good one, you asked "Why can't we have cheesecake and coke at every meal?" and the answer is you can...but do you eat like that? would you let your daughter eat like that? the answer would be no and the reason is because you are intelligently informed on health, you also want what is best for your daughter. I liken this to people all wanting something but they are uninformed, do not understand the consequences of what they want and do not understand that it may not be feasible or viable. So the theoretically (but not always!) informed/government says no...if it's a good government it would also give the reason why it's not good/feasible.
  All up, in my long winded way I was just pointing out that we can't have everything we want as our wants are many times stupid and uninformed.
  I am in now way supporting what the article is actually talking about, in fact I am extremely against this idea of being able to extradite for minor offences and having the US arm of law so long.
  I'm just cynical of people :) after spending 90+% of my time travelling and meeting people around the world in all situations I don't have much faith in the common person :(
  
  --
  I'm not going to lie..things with clock speeds turn me on...
22. Re:There's a good dog by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-20 07:13 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  I'd do something different, but here is what I propose as an alternative, and the key is getting the US on par with the rest of the world. (Posting AC since I am at work):
  1: I'd make being the US military as part of the country as being in the PLA is to the Chinese or the IDF for Israel. Two years mandatory draft civilian/military. This does two things. It takes people and gives them a chance to relocate, better that than being stuck in their 'hood where their only fate is prison or six feet under. Now with this additional manpower, some actual projects can get done. An added benefit is, if people are a lot more interactive with the military or the police, the stupid, paranoid conspiracy stuff will go away. Yes, there may be black helicopters, but if Cousin Jim is flying one, it is a lot less scary for the most part.
  Of course, part of being a US citizen would be like a Swiss or Israeli citizen -- keep weapons maintained at all times. This sounds crazy, but when people know that firearms are just tools and no more, not instruments of divine warfare portrayed in the media, the need for the whole gun control pissing contest would be completely moot. It wouldn't hurt to have shooting teams as well, from the little leagues all the way to "Top Shot" capable shooters. Might as well turn it into a sport (and have rivals shoot at targets for championships as opposed to each other) since it isn't going away anytime soon. Call it zombie preparedness, hell, I don't care. Better to have more shooting ranges than hospitals. Make a national sport.
  2: I'd cut the bullshit, and move the US to a single payer healthcare system. We can easily do this. Medicare and the VA may not be perfect, but they do a good job.
  3: Similar with the auto system. When a person buys fuel or registers a vehicle, they get a large amount of no-fault coverage. Of course, fines will be income based. That way someone going 46 in an unmarked 45 construction zone won't owe a $500 fine and can't pay the rent, while someone else who has a wreck daily but can pay the points on the license isn't going to have carte blanche.
  4: I would allow the Geo Group and CCA to have their contracts, except I'd pay to transition them from prisons to building schools and other non-detention facilities. They get their dollars, but they don't have to force people to be locked up for their stock to go up. Instead, their lobbyists can push for a senior health center or a rec center as opposed to longer prison terms to fill up the newly built Supermax. The 90% minimum bed rule would be tossed out the door.
  5: I'd change over to a VAT system from the income tax system. That way tax credits are immediate.
  6: I'd change the US driving laws to something closer to Germany's. Erratic driving, slamming on brakes in hopes of a rear-ender, running out of gas on a crowded highway, will be fined. People will understand the "zipper rule", or won't drive. Fining will be just like Europe, where the cop swipes the card, or scans the barcode on the iPhone on the spot for small violations. Larger fines will be income based.
  In the commercial sector, if it isn't obviously driver error, if a fine happens due to a rig that isn't maintained, that is attached to the owner, not the driver. That way, some minimum wage slave doesn't take the fall because the owner decided to keep using retreads.
  7: In addition, there would be a large funding push for self-driving cars, as well as a car rental system. This way, regardless if someone owns a vehicle or not, there would be one available, even if someone lived over in a rural area. In urban areas, for every square foot of space built in a high-rise, there would have to be some set aside for parking (both cars and bicycles), both for the customers, as well as public parking. This way, people still can access a downtown area and have a safe place to stash their rides regardless of how built up it gets.
  8: I'd be in talks with GE and Toshiba for smaller nuclear reactors
23. Re:There's a good dog by LastDawnOfMan · 2012-10-20 07:23 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Thank god you told me this...now I'll vote for Romney and the days of our country being the bully-boy enforcer for corporations will vanish!
24. Re:There's a good dog by walshy007 · 2012-10-20 15:14 · Score: 2
  
  No tool that is designed to do significant bodily harm is "just a tool."
  All objects are just tools, unless you are suggesting a firearm can think and act for itself?
Pleb? Who cares? by whoever57 · 2012-10-19 17:24 · Score: 5, Interesting

What do the elites care if a few plebs get sent abroad?
Mods: Before you mod me down, google "plebgate" or "pleb uk"

--
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
1. Re:Pleb? Who cares? by ulricr · 2012-10-20 00:30 · Score: 2
  
  Ugh, am I the only one who thinks the "elites" should have to prove themselves in hand-to-hand combat with whoever they are trying to enforce their bullshit on?
  yes
One thing is certain. . . by cold+fjord · 2012-10-19 17:25 · Score: 4, Funny

Nothing in this discussion will be alarmist or overstated in any way.

--
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
1. Re:One thing is certain. . . by ThatsMyNick · 2012-10-19 17:35 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  That is an overstatement. You have actually contradicted yourself.
Bribery by mbone · 2012-10-19 17:42 · Score: 5, Insightful

Countries allow this sort of abuse because the right people (or entities) have been bribed. Of that, you can be sure. The real question is, is it legal bribery (AKA "foreign aid," or other forms of government money), quasi-legal bribery ($13,000 sex parties paid for by lobbyists, anyone?), or the good, old-fashioned, illegal sort ?
1. Re:Bribery by Endovior · 2012-10-19 19:19 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  You got a citation for those assertions, or just random unfounded conspiratorial ranting?
Fixed link ** Re:nocookies by CuteSteveJobs · 2012-10-19 17:42 · Score: 5, Informative

Sorry. Not sure how that happened, but it was supposed to go here:

"ATTORNEY-GENERAL Nicola Roxon has authorised the extradition of an ethnic Tamil, wanted by the US on offshore terrorism charges, despite his fears he will be deported to Sri Lanka and punished. Ms Roxon signed the extradition order in February, sparking a legal challenge by the man's lawyers, who insist he has never been a threat to the US or Australia and that the alleged offences are more political than security-related. Documents obtained by The Australian under Freedom of Information laws show the extradition case was considered especially sensitive by Australian bureaucrats ... The FOI decision-maker has censored 1 1/2 pages of the preliminary advice to Ms Roxon, fearing the contests would harm international relations."
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/foi/roxon-clears-tamils-extradition-to-us/story-fn8r0e18-1226438076806
1. Re:Fixed link ** Re:nocookies by Smartcowboy · 2012-10-19 18:31 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  cutestevejobs?
  you were his own personal minime?
They told me... by AntiBasic · 2012-10-19 17:47 · Score: 2, Funny

They told me if I voted for McCain, we'd see corporations exerting even more control over federal laws... and they were right!
This is, by Truekaiser · 2012-10-19 18:18 · Score: 5, Interesting

One of the main reasons why the united states is not well liked by a lot of countries.
Think for a moment, imagine say, China, Russia, or say Norway, bullied its way into other countries in such a way that non-citizens of these countries could be 'deported' to them to face punishment. Punishment for laws they did not know about, or are not against the law in their own countries but against the law there.
1. Re:This is, by Genda · 2012-10-19 18:45 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  Friend, the Americans aren't too happy with America right now. What they're (American Corporations) doing to your country they're doing vigorously all over America, and they're a damn site closer here, so if its chafing you, its frigging killing us.
  This strikes me as a powerful indication of the state of the world. The Nation state is in decline. The multi national corporation is calling the tune, and the laws are now being adjusted to ensure that any infraction against the all mighty corporation anywhere on the planet is dealt with swiftly and with overwhelming force. The new terrorist is anyone who isn't consuming his proper allotment and paying his bills. Now might be a good time to take our world back.
2. Re:This is, by sociocapitalist · 2012-10-19 19:46 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Friend, the Americans aren't too happy with America right now. What they're (American Corporations) doing to your country they're doing vigorously all over America, and they're a damn site closer here, so if its chafing you, its frigging killing us.
  This strikes me as a powerful indication of the state of the world. The Nation state is in decline. The multi national corporation is calling the tune, and the laws are now being adjusted to ensure that any infraction against the all mighty corporation anywhere on the planet is dealt with swiftly and with overwhelming force. The new terrorist is anyone who isn't consuming his proper allotment and paying his bills. Now might be a good time to take our world back.
  The nation states where freedom and privacy used to mean more than they do today are in decline.
  The nation states where freedom and privacy mean nothing are not in decline...they are growing in power.
  Unfortunately we in the developed countries that are in decline are not unhappy enough in large enough numbers to effectuate change at this time. Only when the balance of unemployed vs. owners reaches critical mass will change become possible.
  
  --
  blindly antisocialist = antisocial
3. Re:This is, by Jessified · 2012-10-19 19:55 · Score: 2
  
  And on that note: Prisons in the US are major business. And what do you do when you've mostly saturated your home market (with the US leading the world in incarceration)? You begin extraditing people from other countries.
  U.S.A! Number 1!
4. Re:This is, by indytx · 2012-10-19 22:02 · Score: 2
  
  The multi national corporation is calling the tune, and the laws are now being adjusted to ensure that any infraction against the all mighty corporation anywhere on the planet is dealt with swiftly and with overwhelming force.
  Hey!!! Corporations are people, too!
  
  --
  Make love, not reality television.
5. Re:This is, by Genda · 2012-10-19 22:22 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Cut the crap? Okay by the numbers, 2% of our population is in prison, more than any developed nation on the planet, and with prisons everywhere switching over to private institutions, and prisoners working for $0.50 an hour welcome to the future of the American laborer. Since 2000 there have been half a dozen economic crashes destroying jobs and combined with corporations outsourcing jobs to India, China and a dozen other countries, entire regions have suffered economic collapse and acquired names like "The rust belt". Since the last major disaster, millions have lost jobs they will never see again. In fact the new jobs that have become available since 2008 are predominantly service jobs that forces 50 and 60 somethings to utter the phrase "Would you like fries with that burger?" Retirement accounts gone. Pensions gone. Health care gone, Benefits evaporating. Just this week our nation set an all time record for the number of people receiving food stamps. The top 400 richest people in America now have the same wealth as the poorest 165,000,000. The average wage is shrinking faster than the number of honest men in our government. Inflation, due to printing endless tons dollars to cover the bad debt of the bankers, is imploding the American economy, and fast destroying what little buying power remains in the middle class. The corporations are no longer loyal to America and have sucked it dry and are now in the process of throwing away the dry husk... so what part of this sounds to you like bull shit, because I can speak from personal experience, this decade of the corporation has ruined me financially, and I have so many friends and acquaintances that have suffered the same its almost a cliche.
6. Re:This is, by lxs · 2012-10-19 22:23 · Score: 2
  
  I don't live in the US, and I'm not a US citizen, but I don't blame the US for trying to get people extradited. I do however blame my own government for not properly protecting its citizens by complying too easily with every request.
7. Re:This is, by VortexCortex · 2012-10-19 22:48 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Unfortunately we in the developed countries that are in decline are not unhappy enough in large enough numbers to effectuate change at this time.
  Unfortunate indeed. FTUSDI:
  
  [...] whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
  What's that they say of the cyclic nature of history? I put it to you that it's not enough to know history to avoid repeating it; We must also be mindful of it always. Otherwise, in the end there will be lots of, "sorry, but you leave us no choice" on both sides of the double edged sword of power.
8. Re:This is, by drinkypoo · 2012-10-19 23:51 · Score: 2
  
  I don't live in the US, and I'm not a US citizen, but I don't blame the US for trying to get people extradited.
  
  Well, you should. It's part of our prisons-for-profit program, and you should be concerned about that.
  
  --
  "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
9. Re:This is, by Phrogman · 2012-10-20 02:26 · Score: 2
  
  All corporations should be inherently amoral. If they took a morale stance that would limit their profit potential and not be in the interests of the owner or the shareholders as the case may be. Not that there aren't corporations which take a moral stance of a sort but its usually just for the sake of their public reputation and thus only skin deep.
  Capitalism is not a positive moral force in the world, rather the complete opposite - the structuralization of Greed.
  
  --
  "The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
10. Re:This is, by gmuslera · 2012-10-20 03:06 · Score: 2
  
  Why not put as example countries where religion and culture is different enough to yours to consider crimes things that you consider normal? What if you have sex with your sleeping wife and get deported to Sweden? Or women extradited to some muslim countries because had sex before or outside marriage? Probably there are a lot of "outrageous" laws out there, that you would rebel if get deported because of them. In the other side, being imprisoned and deported for copying bytes of information, not hurting (specially in a physical way) anyone, could not be rational neither, specially when is promoted in the same country driving drunk and potentially kill a lot of people in the process have lesser consequences.
11. Re:This is, by westlake · 2012-10-20 04:05 · Score: 2
  
  entire regions have suffered economic collapse and acquired names like "The rust belt".
  
  The rust belt is defined by the heavy industries that became dominant in the northeast and the mid-west after the Civil War and which prospered through World War II and on into the fifties.p There were good jobs to be had here in high-wage union labor.
  But at enormous cost to the environment --- and little post-war investment in infrastructure. In the sixties the bills came due.
  It was simpler and cheaper to abandon the works in place and move south and west.
uber lords by harvey+the+nerd · 2012-10-19 18:23 · Score: 4, Interesting

Those who have already lived in US sponsored dictatorships may better realize that the US government is already far more dangerous than the Nazis in terms of surveillance capability and raw power. So far, too few US citizens seem to recognize that millions of people suffered, or died, in a blatantly illegal, ruinously expensive war with Iraq that appears to be preparatory for domestic use. At least realize enough to stop it, permanently.
1. Re:uber lords by Genda · 2012-10-19 18:55 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  Oh no, There are a huge number of American's who are perfectly clear what's going on, and we have no illusions to what our nation has evolved into over the last 30 years, though as you suggest a vast mouth breathing, knuckle dragging majority has voted for its own slow motion suicide. As Mussolini said, fascism is the corporate state, and we are now all becoming pawns in a global power grab by monied interests. Strangely, we fought WWII to stop the tyranny of fascism, while at the very same monied interests here invested in the Nazi's and laundered their money in the U.S., England and Switzerland. The bankers and CEOs are the threat to liberty, justice and the advancement of the human condition. Perhaps it is time for a new fight for the dignity of the human spirit.
2. Re:uber lords by Intrepid+imaginaut · 2012-10-19 19:13 · Score: 2
  
  You can never stop this kind of thing permanently. The price of freedom, after all...
3. Re:uber lords by Osgeld · 2012-10-19 19:27 · Score: 2
  
  So far, too few US citizens seem to care
  FTFY
4. Re:uber lords by mdragan · 2012-10-19 20:34 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  Maybe it's time for capitalism and the free market thinkers to acknowledge the fact that corporations have as much power to destroy the balance of the free market, as the governments. A corporation is a quasi monopoly.
  Or we could start by saying that temporary monopolies like copyright and patents were never meant to enter the hands of powerful entities, such as corporations. The potential for abuse is too great. The copyright or patent should end as soon as the artist or inventor has been payed by selling his invention to a corporation. The corporations should pay for the right to publish the work or use the invention, not for a tool with which to kill competition.
5. Re:uber lords by Hognoxious · 2012-10-19 23:09 · Score: 2
  
  So far, too few US citizens seem to care
  The vast majority of them are fine, hardworking & God-fearing folks.
  They have nothing to fear from measures like the Patriot Act; it's only bad people - tairsts, comnusts and hermersexuls - that will have their freedom curtailed..
  
  --
  Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
6. Re:uber lords by tqk · 2012-10-20 09:33 · Score: 2
  
  You Americans thought you had freedom how cute :-)
  They did. Theirs was better than anything that'd come before. Unfortunately, they forgot how to maintain it, or some slick talking salesman sold them some snake oil.
  Welcome to the revolution. :-P
  
  --
  "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
I totally misread... by LMahesa · 2012-10-19 18:55 · Score: 2

I totally misread "A Former NSW Chief Judge" as "A Former NSFW Chief Judge".
I need a break from the internet.

--
Look, no SIG!
1. Re:I totally misread... by dbIII · 2012-10-19 20:21 · Score: 2
  
  I totally misread "A Former NSW Chief Judge" as "A Former NSFW Chief Judge".
  We had a few scandals about the private lives of some of them so it can be one and the same thing :) The judges in question were entirely professional at work so it should have been irrelevant, but the press likes a scandal.
  
  Meanwhile, things are looking up in the Philippines due to talks between MILF and the government which could lead to the end of their conflict.
Re:Change by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-19 19:14 · Score: 2, Funny

Darth Vader?
Re:This is, ... bullying? by AxeTheMax · 2012-10-19 19:21 · Score: 2

You know, the classic answer to 'why do bullies bully?' Because the victim allows it.
I probably shouldn't respond to Timothy's trolling by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-19 19:36 · Score: 3, Interesting

...but I'll bite.
You can have either three* economies, in today's world, and still have a country:
Bronze/aluminum age -- agrarian
Iron age -- manufacturing
Silicon age -- information tech and design
The highest standards of living are in IT economies. Ask yourself this: do you want to live in bronze age India? Of course not. You'd rather live in iron age Brazil, or, even better, siicon age Boston. Most world leaders understand this, and that is why they are cool with draconian copyright laws. And in fact, if you protect innovation abroad, you in theory protect innovation at home, as well, and create the possibility of a local market. Most 2nd world countries WANT to become like America. They WANT an innovative and productive economy -- and that is why they support strong IP laws -- to hopefully boost their own economy into a knowledge-based economy, and out of 2nd or 3rd world stagnation.
The sad thing is though, innovation doesn't just come from a good marketplace. It comes from an intelligent, inspired, hopeful, dreaming, confident and curious populace, with time and ways to experiment. Innovation is no longer happening in America because we are not confident anymore. We are dumbed down, crushed and we have no more dreams. College was our only formal gateway to a better life, but that has suffered the fate of most monopolies and destroyed the market by overgouging consumers. Increased corporatism and restrictive patent laws have hurt individual inventors and made college a requirement for any white collar job, due to the fact that only big companies with many lawyers on retainer can survive amidst these insane IP laws. Those few big companies are flooded with applicants, and only distinguish between candidates by education level (read, debt/wealth background). In addition to a dumbing down college tax** and a noncompetitive marketplace (which rewards suing your competitor instead of inventing/refining a product), we also have the dilemma that there are fewer and fewer hobbyists being creative with stuff. Increasingly, everything is locked down, and single use. Even our water bottles are stamped "do not reuse." Not to mention the TV instant gratification culture which discourages critical intellectual activity, like reading a book instead of buying things from commercials.
So, no, wannabe 1st world countries, please do not copy us. We are not a knowledge economy, we are a consumer economy. We no longer create much, anymore. Yes, protecting IP is a good idea. But like anything else, too much of a good thing can be a bad thing. We need sane copyright and patent laws, not an elimination of them all together.
(And we also need local manufacturing, and less corporate litigation -- and less big business domination, period.)
*I'm not including stone age hunter-gather societies, because a) they got their butts kicked by everyone else, and lost almost all their sovereignty, and b) no one really wants to go back to the stone age, and there isn't enough spare flora and fauna to support that move, anyway.
** College has basically become a tax which everyone who wants to get ahead pays. And frankly, it is so insanely bad, that it's aproaching indentured servitude. Many first world people are actually advocating returning to a bronze age civilization, because the american college-industrial complex is so crushingly destructive, restrictive, and empoverishing.
Re:Straw an by Spottywot · 2012-10-19 21:27 · Score: 2

You must be one hell of a shot if you can snipe someone in America from a hill in Australia. Seriously, if you believe that the US or any other country should have this kind of power you must be crazy.

--
In a cybernetic fit of rage she pissed off to another age...
I think we're at the peak of the empire. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-19 21:53 · Score: 2, Informative

The USA is an empire with vassal states all over the world, but it's about to collapse just like the Roman empire, and for the same reason. An empire is expensive, and the will of the American people to maintain the empire is fading away.
Re:So what... by Alien+Being · 2012-10-19 22:11 · Score: 2

You misspelled trial and incineration.
Strewth, blue buggering ruin, etc. by Hognoxious · 2012-10-19 22:50 · Score: 3, Funny

No, the main political groupings there are Inmates and Guards.

--
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Planet USA by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-19 23:25 · Score: 2, Insightful

... Australia recently 'streamlined' its laws ...

Slashdot has reported several extraditions to the USA from the UK where, essentially, US law has jurisdiction in the England.
This follows decades of preferential treatment for US interests: noticebly no-tax laws and the AUS-USA FTA. It is little suprise one Australian leader was called an 'arse-licker' for getting chummy with president GW Bush.
They want to have it both ways... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-20 00:27 · Score: 3, Interesting

Copyright infringement is being prosecuted in the country where the server is... Extradition
Alleged spying is prosecuted where the hacked (cracked) machine/network was (Gary McKinnon, etc.)... Extradition
University must be accredited in a state (Free Online Education Unwelcome In Minnesota)... Being on an out-of-state server does not matter
Parallel Imports not allowed (must buy songs for .99 Euro and not overseas for .99 $)... Not allowed to use a global market
Somehow everything is turned in a way that does not benefit the common people. We should finally once and for all declare a world-wide decree that either you are on foreign soil when you use a specific server or that you are on home turf and the location of the keyboard counts. Then it would be clear what laws apply. The current situation is a complete mess.
Re:JEWS... that's why by jcr · 2012-10-20 00:31 · Score: 2, Informative

>Well argued.
I'm not arguing with you, I'm telling you to fuck off, you chickenshit anonymous nazi shithead.
-jcr

--
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
"Outside the USA" by gnasher719 · 2012-10-20 02:13 · Score: 2

Just saying: According to German law (for example), a crime happens in the place where it has an effect, not in the place where someone took an illegal action. These are often the same places. But for example, when sending a letter bomb the crime takes place where the bomb explodes, not where it was built or sent from. Hacking from a flat in London into US military computers takes place in the USA. Distributing copyrighted materials in the USA from a server somewhere else takes place in the USA.
1. Re:"Outside the USA" by rtfa-troll · 2012-10-20 04:45 · Score: 2
  This is a principle which probably needs to be revisited. There are lots of things that go wrong with that. For example, if I start sending anti-Islamic propaganda to computers in Saudia-Arabia, is it reasonable to treat it as a crime? What if I then go to Malaysia or somewhere else that has an extradition treaty with the Saudis?
  Another example; if someone orders or is involved in child abuse in another country, that should be, and often is, a crime they can be punished for in their home country even if there is no extradition treaty. Otherwise people go looking for countries where they can get away with things.
  There are lots of things going on here. Why should a victim have to travel far away to get justice? Why should a person have to answer for made up crimes in a far away country with high levels of corruption? How can a foreigner expect reasonable justice from a system he doesn't understand? Look at how the Americans cried and cried about a pretty girl being convicted in Italy and then it turned out she was probably innocent. Do you think you would get the same support in America?
  There are a bunch of things which need to be guaranteed before this can work:
  
  convictions should only be for crimes which are crimes in both places; (N.B. not extraditions)
  
  proper legal defence, free or very cheap, should be guaranteed (and I don't mean US public defenders)
  
  full compensation for time and costs for those found innocent
  
  proper access to a proper and fair trial
  
  access to a jury trial for people who have the right in either country
  
  a local review about whether the trial could be more fairly handled in the defendant's home country.
  
  There are probably many more I haven't thought of. Only when that happens should international extraditions be even considered.
  --
  =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
Re:I probably shouldn't respond to Timothy's troll by west · 2012-10-20 02:58 · Score: 2

I'm sorry, but I have to call into question your claim that America isn't innovative any more.
While the rest of the world is *gradually* catching up, which dilutes the appearance of American innovation, there's still a huge amount of research done in America. More to the point, if you start looking deeply into almost any industry, you'll find that it's massively changed over the last 10-20 years, and mostly a result of American innovations.
Farming, manufacturing, chemistry, medical advances, business processes, transportation, finance, electronics (again phones, tablets, internet, etc.) have all made huge recent strides in innovation thanks to American advances. The only real change is that instead of having a virtual monopoly on such advances, American advances are now beginning to share the stage with other countries.
Don't confuse other countries advances with American decline. We should be celebrating, not sorrowing.