Australians Urged To Spoof IP Addresses For Better Prices

angry tapir writes "Choice, a prominent Australian consumer advocacy group, has urged Australians to obfuscate their IP address to avoid geo-blocking and use US forwarding addresses to beat high IT prices. Australia is currently in the middle of parliamentary inquiry into the country's disproportionately high prices for technology. Choice also suggested setting up US iTunes accounts and using surrogate US addresses for forwarding packages from American stores. Choice has noted previously that Australians pay 52 per cent more for digital music downloads on iTunes compared to US users."

Comments

Tor and using a specific exit node (and SSL!)

[Anonymous Coward]

This is how I ended up buying Battlefield 3 premium on Origin for a fraction of the cost (1500 INR (=22 EUR) instead of 50 EUR) by pretending to be from India.

Re:Tor and using a specific exit node (and SSL!)

[Anonymous Coward]

And this is the real reason for DRM, not piracy.

Re:Tor and using a specific exit node (and SSL!)

[2fuf]

Yes, it's the reason for DRM and at the same time the reason for piracy ;-)

Re:Tor and using a specific exit node (and SSL!)

[Anonymous Coward]

...and what you get for cooperating with real criminals; the parasitic music industry who produce nothing of their own, add no value and exploit the musician till they tire of promoting them, then leave them hanging to survive on state fair performances and oldies concerts.
Sorry to hear they didn't use any lube when gaping Australia.
Lesson: quit paying for music and starve the bastards out of business or learn to like the cream filling you get.
This isn't an intellectual property issue, this is about giving the music business back to the musicians and destroying the music industry for good.
Screw that stupid son of a bitch from "Cracker" and all the other brain dead dupes who think their artificial fame entitles them to fuck it up for everyone else. Kill the industry and music will thrive, musicians will thrive, music will be free and performance will be paid, the truly talented will reap their rewards and the garage bands will go home and practice.

Re:Tor and using a specific exit node (and SSL!)

[lightknight]

Indeed. It appears they are desperate to recreate the market segmentation stuff they learned about in their Intro to Economics class, because they think it will earn them more money. Nevermind you need to banjax a government's laws to make it happen, which gives rise to all sorts of horrible side-effects. If you account for all the bribes to pass those laws, I think it would be hard to argue that they're breaking even.

Re:Tor and using a specific exit node (and SSL!)

[Solandri]

Not exactly. I do agree that region-coding DRM sucks and should probably be banned. But that's not what's going on here.

The Australian dollar has gone up about 40% against the US dollar in the last 5 years. If you compare game prices in AUD vs USD and subtract ~40%, you'll find the prices are nearly identical.

International contracts involving two currencies are usually written to cover one year at a fixed exchange rate. Consequently there's a large lag between when a currency goes up, and when prices go down (time constant is on the order of a year). Especially if the seller is a large manufacturer (like Apple), while the buyer represents a small market (Australia). They may not have enough negotiating leverage to get next year's contract changed to better reflect the high rate of currency appreciation. (To be fair, the manufacturer may also be worried that a currency rapidly rising in a few years is a sign that it'll also rapidly fall in coming years. And they don't want to get stuck holding the bag if that happens.)

Then you have the same thing going on at the retail level, where the retailer (who got ripped off by the manufacturer) now realizes the shoe's on the other foot, and they now have the upper hand in negotiating prices with the individual buyer. So you end up seeing retail prices which reflect the exchange rate 5 years ago, with half the excess going into the pockets of retailers, the other half going into the pockets of the overseas manufacturer.

The suggestion to buy from overseas is a good one. Typically the currency exchange fees and overseas shipping fees will more than offset any advantage you gain from lower pricing from buying overseas. But when the disparity is this pronounced, its sufficient to exert downward pressure on prices. The last thing you want to be doing in this sort of situation is grudgingly pay the higher prices.

Re:Tor and using a specific exit node (and SSL!)

[LordLimecat]

promoting them,

Seems to me (or at least to the musicians) that THATS an added value.

Im gonna go ahead and say if youre a musician, you have the power to make your own choices. You can argue all day that the RIAA is increasingly unnecessary and generally unsavory, and I wouldnt really argue with that; but the idea that somehow musicians are unable to decide for themselves whether to sign a contract? That seems like its a little insulting to the musician. Theyre not children, and Im quite certain they can decide for themselves if the records are exploiting them.

Re:Tor and using a specific exit node (and SSL!)

[LordLimecat]

Everyone keeps throwing the word "bribe" around in these kind of contexts. It would be nice, at least once in the history of slashdot, if someone could provide evidence of such a claim (especially since such evidence could go a long way to fixing the problem).

Re:Tor and using a specific exit node (and SSL!)

[green1]

ok, we'll call it "campaign contributions" instead. better? same deal though, money going to a specific politician with a specific expectation of that politician later.

Re:Tor and using a specific exit node (and SSL!)

[green1]

So how do you explain a country where the dollar has been at par with the US dollar (or within a few cents) for almost 10 years now, and yet all prices are close to 50% higher (not Australia, Canada) e.books cost more, mp3s cost more, physical products cost more.
There's only one justification, and it is greed.

Re:Tor and using a specific exit node (and SSL!)

[MozeeToby]

I've mentioned this before, but the fact that companies contribute money to candidates who then go on to support their cause is not evidence of a bribe. It could be a bribe, and at least some of the time it is (when contributors get special meetings and in the cases where special interests were shown to have written proposed laws almost in their entirety), but it could just as easily be candidates who already have a public position on an issue that the company cares about (or it could simply be obvious which way the candidate would vote on a topic).

Re:Tor and using a specific exit node (and SSL!)

[nabsltd]

it could just as easily be candidates who already have a public position on an issue that the company cares about (or it could simply be obvious which way the candidate would vote on a topic).

Do you seriously think that candidates have "public positions" on "tax breaks for companies that employ between 250 and 500 persons and manufacture left-handed cables for use by venues that play live music"? Because these are the kind of laws that get passed as a result of "campaign contributions".

Candidates only have "public positions" on either vague issues ("more jobs") or issues that never actually addressed (like budget deficits).

Re:Tor and using a specific exit node (and SSL!)

[sjames]

It's not payola, we're not sure how that little packet of blow got in with the DJ promotional packet.

We have an industry and a profession both with a history and reputation for bribery. It's hardly a stretch to suspect it is still happening.

Not all cases are necessarily a bribe by the legal definition, but the whole idea of a non-voting entity being allowed to have an influence on political outcomes is questionable.

Re:Tor and using a specific exit node (and SSL!)

[sjames]

Then why do people consistently manage to get better deals by ordering through a non-Australian intermediary and converting the currency on their end? Surely if it was just the exchange rate and a fixed period contract, that would be a losing proposition at least part of the time.

The second part of your post actually seems to support the idea that the exchange rate is just yet another excuse rather than an actual explaination and it supports that the DRM and region coding is used to maintain the ruse.

Re:Tor and using a specific exit node (and SSL!)

[godel_56]

International contracts involving two currencies are usually written to cover one year at a fixed exchange rate. Consequently there's a large lag between when a currency goes up, and when prices go down (time constant is on the order of a year). Especially if the seller is a large manufacturer (like Apple), while the buyer represents a small market (Australia). They may not have enough negotiating leverage to get next year's contract changed to better reflect the high rate of currency appreciation. (To be fair, the manufacturer may also be worried that a currency rapidly rising in a few years is a sign that it'll also rapidly fall in coming years. And they don't want to get stuck holding the bag if that happens.) Then you have the same thing going on at the retail level, where the retailer (who got ripped off by the manufacturer) now realizes the shoe's on the other foot, and they now have the upper hand in negotiating prices with the individual buyer. So you end up seeing retail prices which reflect the exchange rate 5 years ago, with half the excess going into the pockets of retailers, the other half going into the pockets of the overseas manufacturer. The suggestion to buy from overseas is a good one. Typically the currency exchange fees and overseas shipping fees will more than offset any advantage you gain from lower pricing from buying overseas. But when the disparity is this pronounced, its sufficient to exert downward pressure on prices. The last thing you want to be doing in this sort of situation is grudgingly pay the higher prices.

This sounds like BS. For starters these price differences also apply to DOWNLOADABLE software from the original manufacturer.

I've even been able to achieve a 30% discount in one case by simply choosing to pay in a different currency on the site, not even using a proxy. Your comment on contracts is bogus as many of the companies overcharging are big enough to have their own local distribution arms in Australia.

Currency conversion charges usually total about 2% - 2.5% just using a credit card.

Note to US eBay sellers: you'd get a lot more Aussie customers if you's offer some cheaper mailing/freight options on what you're selling. I've seen many cases of small, non-delicate items that might cost $15 having a mailing cost of $35 when they could just be thrown in the post for a much cheaper price, if slower delivery.

Re:Tor and using a specific exit node (and SSL!)

[rtb61]

After all on Steam you pay for things in pseudo USD's and they do an automated exchange and charge your credit card in your local currency.

Re:Tor and using a specific exit node (and SSL!)

[socceroos]

We have a free trade agreement with the US, remember?

Re:Tor and using a specific exit node (and SSL!)

[Acheron]

Actually, Canadian dead-tree books are now almost the same price for US/Canada finally. For instance, the new hardcover from JK Rowling is I believe $1 difference. This only happened after there was a significant amount of press uproar about years of unjustifiable differences, which I believe is good evidence for the argument that the pricing gap is pure greed the distributors think they can get away with it.

Re:Tor and using a specific exit node (and SSL!)

[green1]

And yet E.Books still have a 50% difference even though they don't even have to have a presence in the country...

Did you hear that?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the sound of the USTR laughing his way to the bank.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination

It's just another hilarious way intellectual property law is used to make money through abusing international borders.

Good riddance to geo-blocking

[madsdyd]

I live in Denmark, and recently spent 30 minutes to try and buy an english e-book online.

Found it at 3 different retailers (US, UK, Australia), that refused to sell it to me (add it to the basket), because of my location.

Then found it at 2 additional retailers, that allowed me to add it to a basket, then accepted my credit-card information, before refusing to actually sell it to me.

Then I got sort of mad and decided to break a 15 year old principle on not pirating stuff. Went to google, and had the ebook literally 30 seconds later! 10 seconds later on my device, and I could start reading.

What on earth are they thinking!

Oh, and I then later wrote the agent for the writer in question here in Denmark, and in the UK to offer payment. I have not heard a word from the UK agent, and the Danish one just confirmed that they do not sell the english language version of that writer in Denmark as an ebook.

Fools, really. And, they are probably, as I write this, banging on the door to the parliament, requiering stricter copyright laws.

Fools.

Re:Good riddance to geo-blocking

[Chatsubo]

Stuff like this is especially maddening when they require you to ship digital products.

I had an experience recently where I got a gift voucher for Amazon. I went there knowing a game I wanted would be about the value of the voucher. To my delight I found a digital-only version for the right price.

"Sweet, I'll be playing this puppy in an hour or so!". No beans. Digital copy not available in my country.

WHAT?! Why?! I can go down the road and buy this title legitimately in my country for the same price!

Then I was going: OK, I'll buy the frikkin physical thing then. Only to find shipping the damn disc to my country was going to cost the entire price of the game. So to use my voucher I was going to have to pay the entire price of the voucher for shipping. Something I could, once again, just go do at my corner store.

Finally I contacted a US-based friend and just shipped the disc to him for no shipping charge, and had him email me the serial. Then I found a digital copy of the data myself.

Hint: Never give foreigners vouchers for online retailers. It's a burden to the recipient.

Re:Good riddance to geo-blocking

[fustakrakich]

Who's the fool? The people who attempt to purchase legislation, or the idiots who elect and reelect the corrupt politicians who sell themselves to the highest bidder?

Re:Good riddance to geo-blocking

[Chrisq]

I live in Denmark, and recently spent 30 minutes to try and buy an english e-book online.

Found it at 3 different retailers (US, UK, Australia), that refused to sell it to me (add it to the basket), because of my location.

IANAL but the UK site is probably breaking the law due to the free movement of goods and services within the EU.

Re:Good riddance to geo-blocking

[Lumpy]

Welcome to what happens when copyright get's out of control. Thank the United States Congress for that.

Re:Good riddance to geo-blocking

[Lumpy]

BluRay drive for the computer. anyDVD and handbrake. It strips out the region locking and the useless DRM to allow you to create a file that can play on a media center or right there on your laptop/desktop

Rip out their DRM.

Re:Good riddance to geo-blocking

[delt0r]

Code free players are common and no illegal in Europe. Well at least not in Austria.

Re:Good riddance to geo-blocking

[jonfr]

I have also seen this. But I live in Denmark. Amazon refuses to sell e-books to Denmark from UK. Therefor breaking EU law in this regards (single market). Why this is the case I do not know. But I am sure this is illegal to start with. Regardless who is selling the digital material. This does not only apply to e-books. As Amazon for instances refuses to sell mp3 files to Denmark as well.

I am also a publisher of e-books. I do not understand this type of stupid. As I for instance I want to sell my e-books everywhere. The sad thing is that I might not have a lot to say about it in the end.

Re:Good riddance to geo-blocking

[Anonymous Coward]

What do you want, a massive refusal to vote? Because all politicians are for sale to the highest bidder these days.

Re:Good riddance to geo-blocking

[Anonymous Coward]

Neither, because there are more options, people are just too blind to realize.

Re:Good riddance to geo-blocking

[Chrisq]

Likely they will claim that their hands are tied by the publisher.

Interestingly most publishers say they are keen on a single market for books across the EU:

The publishers also insisted that they are signing licences with authors allowing them to distribute the books in a said language on a pan-European basis. There is no obstacle in the contract between publishers and retailers which prevent these retailers to sell a German ebook to Greece or a Spanish ebook to the United Kingdom for example.

BTW the linked article makes it look as though I was wrong in thinking that the free movement of goods and services would make it illegal currently, but moves are afoot to make it so.

Re:Good riddance to geo-blocking

[wonkey_monkey]

IANAL but the UK site is probably breaking the law due to the free movement of goods and services within the EU.

IANALE, but isn't that only about guaranteeing the free movement of goods at a government level, as opposed to making it mandatory? Should a private company be forced to deliver a sofa to Svalbard even if it's prohibitively complicated and expensive to do so?

Re:Good riddance to geo-blocking

[alexgieg]

Then I got sort of mad and decided to break a 15 year old principle on not pirating stuff. Went to google, and had the ebook literally 30 seconds later! 10 seconds later on my device, and I could start reading.

Well, I don't have that specific principle as, for me, copyright itself is immoral. On the other hand, I believe in paying for actual services, including that of convenience, and also in paying authors for works I like (as an entirely voluntary act of appreciation for the author, not because it'd in some way be "morally correct" to do so). So, while I mostly pay for digital goods, and gladly so, I have absolutely no qualms about going the pirate route the very instant "they" make it difficult. If at the very first click some bullshit that translate to "we don't want your money" happens, my very next step is Pirate Bay or Usenet, no second thoughts.

Typical case in point: I have an anime subscription to Crunchyroll. I can see tons of great anime, but many of the ones available in the site are still region locked and unstreamable here. Now, ask me how many of those that I wanted to watch I didn't watch. So, yeah. :-)

Re:Good riddance to geo-blocking

[wonkey_monkey]

Therefor breaking EU law in this regards (single market).

I thought the single market was about abolishing government-level barriers to trade. Is there a part of the law that says a private company must ship to Iceland if it ships to France?

Re:Good riddance to geo-blocking

[David Gerard]

Players in Australia are actually required to be code-free, or easily made code-free.

Re:Good riddance to geo-blocking

[jonfr]

Iceland is not in the EU. But it is part of EEA. So only part of the EU law applies. The rules on consumer rights only apply in part when it comes to Iceland. But here is the EU web page on this.

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/online-shopping/when-things-go-wrong/index_en.htm

Re:Good riddance to geo-blocking

[Anonymous Coward]

ebookee.org

If your impetus as an author or musician is to generate revenue, you're not an artist, you're a parasite. The basic human trait of freely sharing works of art cannot be legislated out of existence, nor can it be contained.

Re:Good riddance to geo-blocking

[AmiMoJo]

This issue is currently being tested in the European courts. Ebooks, digital music, satellite TV broadcasts and the like are typically supplied by the content provided with an exclusive license for a certain part of the world. The retailer is not allowed to sell outside that area by the license agreement. So far the courts have ruled this to be illegal under current rules.

For example there is a woman in the UK buying English league football matches from a satellite TV provider in Europe for a fraction of the price it would cost from Sky in the UK. So far the courts have agreed that she is within her right to do that, even though Sky are supposed to have an exclusive license to show the games in the UK.

Re:Good riddance to geo-blocking

[ciderbrew]

yes, but you shouldn't have to bother with it really.

Re:Good riddance to geo-blocking

[mwvdlee]

IANALE, but isn't that only about guaranteeing the free movement of goods at a government level, as opposed to making it mandatory? Should a private company be forced to deliver a sofa to Svalbard even if it's prohibitively complicated and expensive to do so?

You mean if the customer is willing to pay for the prohibitively complicated and expensive delivery?

Re:Good riddance to geo-blocking

[mwvdlee]

Now now, don't give the US all the honor.
Pretty much every civilized country deserves a share of the credit for copyright terrorism.

Re:Good riddance to geo-blocking

[wonkey_monkey]

Yes, I actually don't think that would be unreasonable. But, having said that, someone else has pointed me at this:

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/online-shopping/when-things-go-wrong/index_en.htm

which seems like it could be unnecessarily problematic for small companies (if you run a bakery that takes orders online to be delivered around Paris by motorbike, does that mean you have to ship to Berlin if someone wants a doughnut?)

Re:Good riddance to geo-blocking

[luvirini]

Indeed they are, but US is pushing it hard globally, most others involved are just nodding heads.

Re:Good riddance to geo-blocking

[Midnight Thunder]

For the UK company what was the argument for not shipping to you? Depending on what the reason was, you may want to check with your local MEP.

Re:Good riddance to geo-blocking

[Midnight Thunder]

Given the lack of optical drives in new Macs, external drives are the only way to go. I suppose now we will simply need to find out which drives can easily be made region free?

Re:Good riddance to geo-blocking

[Midnight Thunder]

Likely they will claim that their hands are tied by the publisher.

Which would likely be a poor excuse. If that is the case, then you should be contacting your MEP (Member of European Parliament).

Re:Good riddance to geo-blocking

[fatphil]

> Therefor breaking EU law in this regards (single market)

Precisely which law do you think is being broken?

A pizza delivery place in Bristol won't deliver to Saltaire. That's not breaking the law, and that's in the same freaking country. In no way does EU law demand that vendors perform trade with people in all locations.

The EU common market laws are mostly aimed at the member states themselves to not prevent the businesses from trading how they want, enabling the businesses and the trades, rather than placing obligations on those businesses.

Re:Good riddance to geo-blocking

[Lumpy]

Because the USA will put drones in their sky if they dont comply...

Re:Good riddance to geo-blocking

[Skal Tura]

and in many countries that is illegal because you are circumventing copy protection.
Illegal even if making backups or converting to another media for playing it on different devices is legitimate.

Here in Finland you are permitted to make anyway you wish a backup of any copyrighted material for your own usage.
Just the bypass of copyprotection is illegal, but there is no punishment for that.
Also downloading anything/gaining a copy of protected is legitimate for the individual, but distribution is illegal, which in some rare cases does result into fines or even jail time.

To add insult to the injury, every single CD, DVD, BluRay, any media to what you can save data, includes a copyright fee so you are free to copy for your own personal usage.

Businesses can purchase non-copyright fee media for backup purposes and other proven legitimate uses. Also many order media directly from Estonia to avoid the copyright fees.

Re:Good riddance to geo-blocking

[RobertLTux]

sure if they want to pay for a Driver (but they might want to buy a couple Dozen).

Re:Good riddance to geo-blocking

[wonkey_monkey]

So you think it's right that a small company - possibly with a single employee - should be obligated to provide services far above and beyond those they've set out to provide just because they have a website?

Re:Good riddance to geo-blocking

[couchslug]

"Then I got sort of mad and decided to break a 15 year old principle on not pirating stuff."

I never had that principle, as there is no reward for behaving in that manner.

Re:Good riddance to geo-blocking

[Lumpy]

In my state inside the USA, It's illegal for a woman to get a haircut without the permission of her husband.

Against the law does not matter when the law if utterly ridiculous.

Re:Good riddance to geo-blocking

[jrumney]

Amazon refuses to sell e-books to Denmark from UK.

Shouldn't that be Amazon refuses to sell e-books to Denmark from Luxembourg , which is where they choose to pay the tax on those e-books.

Legacy of Regional Pricing

[StoneyMahoney]

Regional differences in pricing stem from pre-globalisation economics. With no overlap between regional markets, prices would be set on a per-market basis and never the twain did meet. In a post-globalisation Internet-levelled playing field, regional price differences make no little sense for purely-digital products, except where national sales-related taxes differ. The only reason to maintain these regional price variations to artificially inflate profit margins at the expense of the consumer.

In theory, the libertarian free-marker doctrine should cause this price difference to level out fairly quickly once the market starts to take advantage of (and offense to) these cross-border variations. Let's see if that theory works in practice...

Anyone want to bet on legislation increasing to prevent cross-region sales instead?

Re:Legacy of Regional Pricing

[sumdumass]

A large part of the problem is copyright and patents. You actually need to get permission to sell things in different countries even though you might have it already for your country. This is largely because the laws are different in the other countries and the copyright or patent owners has to decide if they will allow their works to be subject to them or not and whether or not they want the hassle of enforcing the rights in the foreign country. Some foreign legal system will require the rights holder to be present to sue, some allow copying in circumstances that aren't in the home state.

You are most likely correct, there will be legislation involved and if getting around this is widespread it will likely be to prevent it.

Re:Legacy of Regional Pricing

[Richard Pounder]

Definitely true, but also a fair percentage of those pre-globalisation prices are based on the fact the Australian dollar had historicaly traded at roughtly 25% lower vs the US dollar than it has been the last few years (averaged about 75-80c to as low as 50c), add a 10% tax that is also added to all goods and services and you're getting fairly close to the 52% we're being overcharged. Mind you this isnt a defence of the system just a bunch of related contributing factors that make me feel these good times we're experience with increased purchasing power probably wont last forever, but I do feel retailers here should be attempting to "meet us in the middle" a bit more so to speak, some are but others refuse.

Re:Legacy of Regional Pricing

[Lumpy]

You haven't been back in a while. Eating at a decent restaurant and not Mc-Donalds will consume all of the $20.00 without having a drink at all. Hope you did not want a salad or dessert. Water is still free..

Re:Legacy of Regional Pricing

[TFAFalcon]

If there was a single market, then yes, prices in low income countries would go down. But at the same time, income would go up. Local businesses could charge more for their products in the local market while also paying their employees more.
At the same times, prices and income in high income countries would go down.

Re:Legacy of Regional Pricing

[chihowa]

You mean, not even the difference in average income plays a role ? People in countries with a high average income should be able to buy from countries with a low average income ?

Why not? That's the way it works with the labor market. Products are made in China where the labor costs less and then shipped overseas.

  Charging a uniform price makes more sense anyway. If it costs $X to make a widget, why should it sell for $X+1 in low income countries and $X+100 in high income countries? The extra $99 in high income countries is just unearned profit. The excuse that the high income countries are subsidizing the availability of the product in low income countries is bunk, too. If the company wasn't making an acceptable profit in the low income countries, they wouldn't sell their product there. They're not a charity.

  Now, if the product is actually produced in the local economy, then it makes sense for the sale price to be adjusted to the local economy. But if the product is manufactured in China, what sense does it make to charge US prices? They're not incurring US costs (on the manufacturing labor end, anyway).

Aussie Parliament

[aglider]

is spending time in discussing iTunes and Amazon prices?
That's a nice country, indeed!

Re:Aussie Parliament

[mjwx]

is spending time in discussing iTunes and Amazon prices?
That's a nice country, indeed!

If you believe /. the only thing Parliament wants to do is steal "mah freedomz(TM)" and "censor teh internetz" (both of which didn't come to pass BTW, I'm a free Australian free with uncensored intertubes). The majority of Parliamentary members are not pushing for this, in fact most of the Labor party rebelled over the idea of internet censorship. Things like price disparity and other issues that matter to the average Australian come up quite often in between petty bickering and snide jibes between Liberal and Labor (which to be honest, takes up 3/4 of parliament sitting time).

With all it's flaws (of which, there are a great many) I'd rather have the parliament of Australia which the very least, is not a corporate sock puppet.

Re:Aussie Parliament

[bendy]

Actually, yes, the Parliament is spending time discussing iTunes and Amazon prices:

http://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/House_of_Representatives_Committees?url=ic/itpricing/hearings.htm

Re:Aussie Parliament

[Zuriel]

Did *you* read before commenting? The summary said:

Australia is currently in the middle of parliamentary inquiry into the country's disproportionately high prices for technology.

Google turned up a reference

House of Representatives Committees
House Standing Committee on Infrastructure and Communications
Inquiry into IT Pricing

On 24 May 2012 the Committee resolved to inquire into IT price discrimination, following a request from the Minister for Broadband, Communications and the Digital Economy, Senator Stephen Conroy.

It's not just games

[mjwx]

It's not just games that we buy from overseas for cheap. Phones, cameras, computers, car and bike parts. All because local distributors used to have us by the balls with pricing. Games were A$90, Movies and CD's A$30 a piece and considering the AUD has been above 1 USD for the last few years, pricing like this is just taking the piss.

Well no more, I can order just about anything and get it shipped here for less. I order games from the UK for half the price of local games, DVD box sets that retail for A$75 I purchase for 11 pounds (AUD$17), My Canon Ixus 230 came from Hong Kong for A$100 less than here, I bought myself a laptop from the US, US$899 (A$840, a very favourable exch rate at the time) and got it shipped over tax free (personal imports under A$1000 are not subject to GST, note this is now A$900), Asus didn't even sell this model here but the previous model was A$1400. Even retailers are getting in on this very sweet action, JB HiFi and even Harvey Norman are selling "direct import" cameras and games and giving the middle finger to distributors.

You think in this environment the distributors would have learned and instituted fair pricing... Well they haven't and as much as the bang on about it, no one in parliament will lift a finger to protect them. Suffer in your jocks you smarmy, self centred bastards. Now we just need to allow more used cars to be imported, an Australian Nissan 350z costs A$30-40K, an imported Japanese Nissan 350GT costs A$20-30K imported and they are practically the same car (the 350z was down-tuned compared to the 350GT) but you are only allowed to import cars on the SEVS list (Specialist and Enthusiast Vehicles) which were never available for sale in Oz so I couldn't buy a cheap JDM Honda Integra Type R.

This is how I ended up buying Battlefield 3 premium

My sympathies sir, I too bought Battlefield 3 before realising how crap of a game it was.

Re:It's not just games

[Canazza]

Make it a Green issue. All that importing half-way across the world must burn alot of Jet Fuel. I'm sure they'll sit up and listen when they figure out that over-inflated prices are destroying the Great Barrier Reef.

Re:It's not just games

[arisvega]

To me the actual topic here is: "Australia is currently in the middle of parliamentary inquiry into the country's disproportionately high prices for technology." (emphasis mine)

But why is that? Was this situation 'naturally selected' because of a compination of Oceania's geographical placement and some opportunistic merchants, because of something more sinister, or what? Any insights?

Re:It's not just games

[ozmanjusri]

How much jet fuel does it take to ship a Technet subscription?

Microsoft charges $599 in the US compared to $1048 in AU.

http://i.imgur.com/qQNn4.png

Re:It's not just games

[Intrepid imaginaut]

Food and daily basics are cheaper in developing countries but computers and electronics I never found to be any cheaper. At times they were more expensive to be honest.

Re:It's not just games

[bloodhawk]

It seems more a case of every companies excuse is they charge what everyone else charges, some try and argue it is the cost of wages here, but Australian online retailers do the same exhorbitant rates. Then you have a few that claim. "Oh we set our prices when the Aussie dollar was much lower and have not gotten around to re-evaluating the prices yet but we will get to it in due time"

Re:It's not just games

[Elbart]

The US-navy deploys those with F18s. Those aircraft-carriers are expensive.

Re:It's not just games

[grcumb]

You think in this environment the distributors would have learned and instituted fair pricing... Well they haven't and as much as the bang on about it, no one in parliament will lift a finger to protect them.

It's especially galling to see that prices for identical hardware are lower in New Zealand, which has only a small fraction of Australia's population and which is actually farther from the most common markets.

I live in a country (very) roughly equidistant from the two, and travel fairly regularly to both. Last year, I was shopping for an Android phone and discovered that the number on the sticker was the same in both countries. Given that NZD 1 is worth about AUD 0.79, that's a bit of a difference. Just to add insult to injury, the prices were from the very same tech store chain!

There is no logical reason that I can find to justify hardware prices in Australia.

Re:It's not just games

[fatphil]

If only someone would take all the massless parts of the product - the 0 and 1 bits, and transport them at next-to-no cost to Australia. Imagine the fossil fuels saved by doing that - these guys would be regarded as heroes. Shame about all the prison time they'd be forced to serve at the hands of the MAFIAA.

Re:It's not just games

[Anonymous Coward]

But why is that?

It's all about greed. They charge more because there are no laws saying they can't.

Re:It's not just games

[LordLimecat]

Someone skipped out on the first day of economics 101.

Re:It's not just games

[Skal Tura]

Someone mod parent up and quick!

Exactly what is going on globally everywhere.
Just couple days back here in Finland i read news that a online TV broadcasting firm is being sued for copyright violations. What they did was rebroadcast the channels over internet, allow recording etc. basicly a TiVO/DVR via the net. For each customer there was even a receiver attached to stay on legal side.

They were sued by all major finnish tv channels, even our BBC counterpart which is funded by actual taxes starting 1st of Jan, 2013.
They did not rebroadcast paid channels, only free channels.
All the channels stood only to gain if they just worked with the internet broadcasting company, which has been under discrimination and persecution ever since it's inception.

They also provided access to Finns living elsewhere in the world, because things are so shitty here (A lot of it has to do with taxes and how those taxes are spent). A LOT, and i mean A LOT of finns move abroad, some of them eventually come back like my dad, some frequently visit finland, but many of them never comes around anymore.
It was the only means for "out finns" to watch finnish broadcasts. In that case however it's questionable legitimacy as "out finns" don't pay the public broadcast tax, but ad sponsored channels again stood to gain a lot. Ethically and morally i think "out finns" should be eligible to watch any Finnish TV or Radio channel for free, after all those are the very same guys taking the finnish culture out there - so why should we deny them from appreciating finnish culture in the form of TV or Radio?

Re:It's not just games

[1u3hr]

Make it a Green issue. All that importing half-way across the world must burn alot of Jet Fuel

It's imported in either case, so no difference. But less ground transport (petrol) as it goes direct to the consumer rather than via a couple of middlemen.

Re:It's not just games

[jonwil]

I think one of the best examples I have seen in terms of demonstrating how much us Aussies get ripped off is the stories of people buying car tires (and wheels) from US sites like tirerack.com. When you can buy a set of 4 large heavy car tires or wheels (or both), pay the huge shipping costs to get them to Australia, pay the GST (if its more than whatever amount is required for GST to be charged) AND pay someone to put the new tires/wheels onto the car, do wheel alignments and balances etc for less than it would cost to go to a local tire mob and get a set of 4 tires (let alone 4 tires + fitting) then you know something is screwed up.

Probably why sites like tirerack.com have recently been forced by some manufacturers to stop shipping tires internationally.

Re:It's not just games

[Chatsubo]

Now we just need to allow more used cars to be imported....

Oh my, South Africans _love_ to complain about how cars manufactured in SA (esp. Toyota) can possibly sell for less in Aus. than in SA. If you think you get a bad deal on cars, imagine how we feel. We have huge taxes on imported cars (a US$30k car gets ~70% import duty) to prevent outside competition with domestic manufacturers, so they charge what they want... because imported (by distributors) brands are even more expensive.

The companies lining their pockets are gonna keep it that way.

Re:It's not just games

[mjwx]

To me the actual topic here is: "Australia is currently in the middle of parliamentary inquiry into the country's disproportionately high prices for technology." (emphasis mine)

But why is that? Was this situation 'naturally selected' because of a compination of Oceania's geographical placement and some opportunistic merchants, because of something more sinister, or what? Any insights?

The why is simple, they could get away with it.

The how is more mundane. in the 90's Australia had a exchange rate with the USD of 1:0.5 AUD to USD. So prices were set to a bit above double what they were in the US. However in the early 00's this began to change, by the second half of the decade the AUD had passed 80 US cents but prices remained high, offset by rising wages in Australia because distributors did not change prices with the changing exchange rate. Many distributors did not change prices simply because people kept paying the high price.

The distributors are getting a rude awakening as more and more people getting into grey importing.

Some distributors have played ball, mostly with the cheap crap from China, a toaster that used to cost A$40 is now A$10, the price of low end cars like the Kia Rio or Honda Jazz are comparable with the UK (who pay more tax on cars than we do) however high end cars like a BMW are hideously overpriced (yet idiots keep buying them, so BMW has no impetus to change).

Re:It's not just games

[green1]

It's imported in either case, so no difference.

You would think, but in fact it's not likely. the reason is that when shipping across the planet it is much more efficient to ship a pallet load of CDs (or more likely a shipping container full of pallets of CDs) then it is to ship the same quantity individually wrapped and addressed. not to mention the pallet load will likely ship by sea with thousands of other pallets whereas the individual ones will likely ship by air which is a much less efficient method of transport.

All of this completely ignores the fact though that much of what's being discussed is simple electronic data, things like itunes purchases and such which don't ship at all and yet still have vastly different prices in different countries.

We live in a world where, due to extreme political lobbying, we have a global market for large companies, and yet a local market for individuals. I have no problem with a global market, but if the company can buy it's parts and labour overseas at no penalty, I should also be able to buy the finished product the same way. Unfortunately in many cases doing so is illegal. (It's illegal to import many of these things yourself (such as music and movies, but also things like foreign region DVD players (in some jurisdictions), not to mention many larger items like cars and trucks))

Re:It's not just games

[mjwx]

Food and daily basics are cheaper in developing countries but computers and electronics I never found to be any cheaper. At times they were more expensive to be honest.

Food isn't really that much cheaper in developing countries. The price difference you notice is the cost of labour. In Australia minimum wage is about A$15 an hour, for a casual employee you're looking at A$18+ an hour. A$22 for wait or kitchen staff is not unheard of in Perth.

In Thailand, they work for about $15-20 a day in expensive restaurants. Across the whole supply chain this adds up to a lot.

computers and electronics I never found to be any cheaper. At times they were more expensive to be honest.

Computers... maybe for nations that consider them luxury items and tax them accordingly (Cambodia IIRC). But going to Low Yat Plaza in Kuala Lumpur or similar places in Bangkok (Pantip Plaza IIRC) I can find el-cheapo boxes for a good 15-20% less than in Oz. Forget about brand name stuff though, you might find it 10% cheaper, but normally it's about the same price as online stores.

However for general electronics, you can get it way cheaper in Asia. Sim Lim Square (Singapore), Low Yat Plaza (Kuala Lumpur) and Pantip Plaza (Bangkok) will sell components, peripherals and entire gadgets for pennies on what we pay in Oz. A lot of good knock-off gear that you'll never see here. On my last trip to Thailand I picked up a generic copy of a Logitech G500 gaming mouse for 300 Baht (A$10), apart from the "Lazer" brand on the casing it's identical to a A$100 G500. The tip is to ignore the stalls on the bottom floors and go the the top where they see fewer customers. Low Yat and Pantip Plaza's are really Bazaars of tech where you can find everything from Molex extension cables to keyboards to the latest brand name tablets and laptops.

But as I said, the bargain is in the smaller components and no-name gadgets (although they are pretty well known, I include ZTE and Huawei phones in this) forget the brand name stuff. You usually can order that online for the same price.

Re:It's not just games

[green1]

Depends where you compare to. often the "developing countries" aren't the place with the cheap electronics. But I can definitely tell you that the US has much cheaper electronics than most of the rest of the developed world. I live in Canada, we share a very long border with the US so it's not exactly far away, and yet our prices are generally close to 50% higher than the US. Most US companies though refuse to ship to Canadian addresses, and their Canadian divisions carry a much smaller selection (I'm looking at you Amazon!) The only way to get the cheaper electronics is to physically go and get them, or set up a mail forwarder (or in short, use the tricks in the article linked above)
Even digital downloads are significantly more expensive, despite no need to ship anything, or even maintain a Canadian presence, and all despite the Canadian dolar hovering around par with the US dollar for many years now.

Re:It's not just games

[mjwx]

Food isn't really that much cheaper in developing countries.

I forgot to add, developing nations generally use the cuts of meat we throw out or put into dog food. Getting quality cuts of steak can be difficult at times... lets not even get into how hard it is to find a decent cheese board in Thailand.

Re:It's not just games

[frank_adrian314159]

But why is that? Was this situation 'naturally selected' because of a compination of Oceania's geographical placement and some opportunistic merchants, because of something more sinister, or what? Any insights?

It's because we have to translate the manuals into Australian.

On the other hand, it could be worse - look what we do with the Canadians, eh?

Re:It's not just games

[timeOday]

when shipping across the planet it is much more efficient to ship a pallet load of CDs (or more likely a shipping container full of pallets of CDs) then it is to ship the same quantity individually wrapped and addressed.

Not so much as in the past. It amazes me that I can buy trivial things on ebay from Hong Kong to my home in the southwest US for as little as $3.50 including shipping. It seems to me that all the routers from there to here (and I mean, physically routing packages), must be highly automated and efficient to make this economically feasible. So the value of retailers and their warehouses has gone down a lot.

Re:It's not just games

[Existential Wombat]

I feel sorry for the Aussies, true, they're isolated so shipping from the US is a cost, but I was there the other week and a $1000(US) Apple cinema display costs $1600 there (the A$ and US$ are about parity right now). That's not shipping. That's ripping off.

Re:It's not just games

[timeOday]

I dunno. The electronics markets with super-low prices used to be legend here in the US. But I think that gradient was dissipated through the vast expansion of asian imports in the 00's. When I stopped by the Guang Hua Digital Plaza in Taiwan, really, it felt a lot like ebay. Or there is Harbor Freight, which is an unabashed Chinese tool shop right in your neighborhood, with low-to-moderate quality stuff for very low prices.

Re:It's not just games

[sjames]

I'll bet "due time" comes around much faster when the AUD falls in value.

Re:It's not just games

[1u3hr]

Another factor is that retail, a lot of goods aren't sold, are returned by the retailer, and eventually destroyed, or never leave the warehouse, or are sold off to discounters at below cost.. With direct purchase the unit costs are higher but there is less warehousing and wastage.

Re:It's not just games

[fatphil]

Strange, I normally hear about things like that in Finland, as I still hang out with a lot of like-minded Finns online. Seems like you're referring to http://www.tvkaista.fi/ And that sounds like simply hiring an agent to do for you what you are permitted to do by yourself (timeshift tv programs by recording them, and playing them back as suits you best). Are EFFI taking an interest?

Re:It's not just games

[fatphil]

Well, not the EFFI, but the pirate party:
http://piraattipuolue.fi/2012/10/tv-kaistan-syytteet-poyristyttavaa-haikailua-mustavalkoaikaan/
Personally, I'd be happier with EFFI behind the cause, the pirate party is sometimes its own worst enemy.

Re:It's not just games

[MoaDweeb]

One of the reasons that we Kiwi's get cheaper goods is due to allowing parallel importing. This keeps the distributors honest although Big Pharma (amongst others) call us dirty names. This will all go when we sign up to the filthy TPP however.

Re:It's not just games

[mjwx]

When I stopped by the Guang Hua Digital Plaza in Taiwan, really, it felt a lot like ebay.

Well, it really is. What ebay stores do is buy components factory direct and sell them on ebay, What stores in technology plazas do is buy components factory direct and sell them in booths.

The big difference is that ebay doesn't give you the chance to inspect the merchandise before buying. Its this reason I like going to the stores and plazas.

Plus Ebay tends to add a bit on for shipping.

Re:It's not just games

[mjwx]

Now we just need to allow more used cars to be imported....

Oh my, South Africans _love_ to complain about how cars manufactured in SA (esp. Toyota) can possibly sell for less in Aus. than in SA. If you think you get a bad deal on cars, imagine how we feel. We have huge taxes on imported cars (a US$30k car gets ~70% import duty) to prevent outside competition with domestic manufacturers, so they charge what they want... because imported (by distributors) brands are even more expensive.

The companies lining their pockets are gonna keep it that way.

And we thought we were getting reamed here in Oz.

Its the same here, private importing is limited to protect the local manufacturers who despite this, keep closing factories in Australia. These factories are also being propped up with tax money so they're a net loss for Australia (not to mention the Aussie made Holden Cruze is a pile of shite). The sooner we open up private imports to more models of car, the better. ADR (Australian Design Rules) will be met by most, if not all JDM (Japanese Domestic Market) cars, many cars are exactly the same model (Japan and Oz both being RH drive) or at the very least, slightly down-tuned like the Nissan 350z (available in Oz) compared to the 350GT (import permitted).

The only thing I had to get done to my private import 350GT was a new set of tyres (A$1000) and this was mainly because the Japanese tyres didn't have English writing on them.

Re:It's not just games

[Raenex]

however high end cars like a BMW are hideously overpriced (yet idiots keep buying them, so BMW has no impetus to change)

If people can afford them and there is no alternative, then they aren't idiots. It's simple supply and demand.

Re:It's not just games

[Raenex]

I was there the other week and a $1000(US) Apple cinema display costs $1600 there (the A$ and US$ are about parity right now). That's not shipping. That's ripping off.

So why don't more Aussies just buy from eBay and have it shipped? Sounds like a case where simple arbitrage should reduce prices.

Re:It's not just games

[mjwx]

however high end cars like a BMW are hideously overpriced (yet idiots keep buying them, so BMW has no impetus to change)

If people can afford them and there is no alternative, then they aren't idiots. It's simple supply and demand.

Afford is not so simple, people on $65,000 p/a take out $100,000 loans for BMW X5. That alone makes them idiots.

However it's not what I'm talking about, what makes them real idiots is that not only will they borrow more than their yearly earnings to buy a luxury brand car, they'll complain to hell and back about how they're getting ripped off. They want the cars to cost less, but will still buy them even though they know the manufacturer is taking the piss. They want to affect price, without altering the supply and demand paradigm, that is the definition of idiot (most will blame the govt for high prices, it could never be their own fault).

In case you haven't been paying attention, I imported a Nissan Skyline 350 GT, I paid A$15K less for the JDM model than I would have for the ADM (Skyline 350z) model and got a newer car, with fewer KM's on the clock and a better tuned engine.

Re:It's not just games

[Raenex]

Afford is not so simple, people on $65,000 p/a take out $100,000 loans for BMW X5. That alone makes them idiots.

It's not something I would do, but if they value the car that much then who am I or you to call them idiots?

they'll complain to hell and back about how they're getting ripped off. They want the cars to cost less, but will still buy them even though they know the manufacturer is taking the piss.

It's one thing to know you're getting screwed. It's another to forgo what you want.

In case you haven't been paying attention, I imported a Nissan Skyline 350 GT, I paid A$15K less for the JDM model than I would have for the ADM (Skyline 350z) model and got a newer car, with fewer KM's on the clock and a better tuned engine.

Good for you.

Canada has the same issu:e

[Anonymous Coward]

Books in Canada are marked with two prices; one for a sale in Canada and one for a sale in the US. Despite the fact that the Canadian dollar is worth about the same (sometimes more sometimes less depending on the day) as a US dollar, the cost difference is usually significant. There's no real reason for it. The difference is a hangover from when the difference between the two currencies was large. Retailers see this as a profit boost.

Many other products are generally more expensive in Canada vs the US - cars in particular. Border towns in Canada see a huge flux of people cross-border shopping as a result.

Now and then someone complains, the retailers whine about OH NOES, IT'S DIFFERENT IN CANADA - LESS PEOPLE - SHOULD COST MORE. Yeah - always fun comparing the huge price discrepancies between Amazon.ca and Amazon.com for the same product.

AC

Re:Canada has the same issu:e

[green1]

Price difference is only half the problem, ever try to buy anything from Amazon in Canada? there's nothing on the Canadian site, they stock a fraction of the product and the American site refuses to ship to Canada.

It's also especially interesting when you look at digital files. a friend of mine recently bought an e-book reader, he suddenly found out that ebooks are priced just as their physical counterparts, significantly higher in Canada, and apparently it's not just IP based either, it looks at where your credit card was issued.

Re:Canada has the same issu:e

[Pope]

Wages are higher in Canada. Taxes are higher in Canada. Prices for just about everything are higher in Canada. No idea why a company would ever want to sell something in Canada with a higher price.

Re:Canada has the same issu:e

[jrumney]

Books in Canada are marked with two prices; one for a sale in Canada and one for a sale in the US.

Probably a side effect of the obsolete distribution model of the publishing industry, where all Commonwealth countries distribution networks start at the London office of the publisher. These days the physical distribution might start in Hong Kong, with a single copy for the US and Canada markets, but the middle men taking their cut of the profit are still the same, with no relation to the physical movement of the books.

Productivity Commission Report

[Spikeles]

There was a report last year from the Productivity Commission which is "the Australian Government's principal review and advisory body on microeconomic policy and regulation. It is an independent statutory authority in the Treasury Portfolio and responds to references from the Treasurer. "

This specific report is for the Retail industry, but there is a very good chapter on online and price differences, which includes some parts talking about things like Apple's Price Discrimination. For those interested, the report can be found here Economic Structure and Performance of the Australian Retail Industry. The price differences part is Chapter 6.

I'll quote some relevant parts:

Box 6.4 - Apple’s international price discrimination
Costs associated with the distribution of Australian specific content and marketing could mean that higher fixed costs apply to the Australian subsidiary. But given the costs associated with the distribution of music and other media are only likely to be a relatively small share of total costs, this does not fully explain or justify the price differential.

The Commission considers that Australian consumers will buy goods where they feel they get the best deal regardless of retail format and that retailers that do not, or are unable to, respond effectively to competitive pressures will face serious challenges.

Willful Misrepresentation is a Crime

[Anonymous Coward]

Willfully misrepresenting material facts in order to obtain a financial benefit to which one would not otherwise be entitled is a fraud crime.

Re:Willful Misrepresentation is a Crime

[bloodhawk]

But we are not misrepresenting at all, I am legitimately utilising a VPN Service. I am not saying I am something I am not. It isn't our fault companies are morons and rely on a VPN address to try and work out what country I am from. IP Addressing was never intended for this use.

Re:Willful Misrepresentation is a Crime

[bloodhawk]

There is NOTHING illegal here. please point out what I am doing that is illegal? If it is illegal to go via a VPN, then half of the world organisations and governments are also doing something illegal as NATing proxies are the norm everywhere.

Brazil have the same problem

[TheDarkMaster]

Here we have the same problem, but in our case it affects anything and everything that comes from overseas. I have to pay three times what you Americans pay for an SSD, ridiculous is not it?

Incidentally, interesting question ... Why businesses can freely look around the globe a place to produce things, while we consumers are forced to buy our things in a very restricted manner (You can even import, but only if you pay double or even triple) and for much more than we should? Capitalism and free market for large companies, Dictatorship for consumers?

Re:Brazil have the same problem

[VortexCortex]

Incidentally, interesting question ... Why businesses can freely look around the globe a place to produce things, while we consumers are forced to buy our things in a very restricted manne.

Why? Well, you won't like the answer: The common man is akin to chattel that the ruling classes farm. You have less buying power and control over your own markets because none of the workers get compensated fairly for the true value they provide to those that they work for. Combine with this the fact that it is written into the legal DNA of a Corporate entity at inception that they will always seek profit by any means necessary, or face death by shareholder: You get Lower wages and Higher Prices.

This is what happens in the latter stages of any Machine Invasion. You suffer because of our war with the Intangible Thought Machines -- They won.
Where is John & Sarah Conner or Neo when you need them? Hell, I'd settle for Rube Goldberg at this point; Maybe he'd be able to find the way to arrange the horrible information machines into a giant contraption that meets the needs of the many, instead of the wants of the few.

Re:Brazil have the same problem

[Derek Pomery]

I'm sure there are economies of scale in shipping, but if it was possible to cheaply ship an SSD to Brazil, people would go into business for themselves providing it to you, and undercut manufacturers.

I suspect the price difference can be chalked up to import tarrifs, local taxes and shipping costs.

I once sent an iPad to someone in the UK who wanted it on opening day. I paid US price, and did not charge them anything extra for it. Shipping was not a huge amount, something like... $15?
He did end up paying quite a bit in UK taxes/tariffs. When we did the math, he hadn't really saved any money over the UK price.

He did get the iPad a bit sooner though. It was ofc a US model, so missing any UK customisations.

Re:Brazil have the same problem

[TheDarkMaster]

To be exact it is a little bit of everything... In addition to the fees and taxes you described, we have one factor that here is called "Lucro Brasil" ("Brazilian Profit" in English).

It works more or less like this: If I want to buy a $100 SSD overseas, I will need to pay $300 (ludicrous import taxes, customs, shipping, etc etc). Then one day a manufacturer decides to make the $100 SSD inside my country. Knowing that the overseas price of $100 is the final consumer price for sale with profits, costs etc already included, then the national SSD would cost me more or less the same $100, right?

Wrong. Why the manufacturer would sell me the national SSD for $100, if he can charge the $300 it would cost me to buy abroad? And that's what everyone does here. And I can not do anything because I can only buy within the country or abroad for the same $300, to purchase for $100 only if I make smuggling.

Re:Brazil have the same problem

[Derek Pomery]

It could well be that, sure. I'd discussed that w/ friend I was buying the iPad for. My guess was that the UK taxes and import duties impose a barrier, a kind of cost gradient. The price that Apple is going to impose then will be one based upon how much they know that gradient to be for others.

Basically the situation above.
And, that seems totally natural. They are going to charge what the market will bear. And why shouldn't they? Just because the barriers are ones raised by the state, rather than by geography, they are still there, and merchants of any size will naturally take advantage of them. It's how human trade has always worked, unless someone is feeling particularly altruistic.

There's one other factor you should consider though. Building an SSD in Brazil might well cost more.
Remember the Raspberry Pi guys were going to build their boards in the UK but had to abandon that due to prohibitive import duties on the needed components, and switched to Chinese manufacture.

Re:Brazil have the same problem

[Derek Pomery]

To elaborate, the reason I think it is both, is that barring some barrier to production of SSDs that makes it likely that anyone who could produce an SSD would do so in collusion with existing manufacturers, it seems likely that a small trade war would ensue, causing an eventual value to be settled at that would be a bit above the final cost.

I think people in Brazil are ignorant perhaps of how much import duties might harm local manufacture, just as those in the UK are (apparently the Raspberry Pi foundation was until they actually tried to do it).

In the case of Apple, Apple controls the production of all iPads, so certainly it seems likely they would set their UK price to just slightly above what it would cost to bring one into the UK, since it isn't like iPads can be produced in the UK, even if it could be done cheaply (and it can't due to the taxes). So, they'll charge the cost it would take me to send some to the UK plus a small amount above that for convenience/labour of doing so.

Re:Brazil have the same problem

[Derek Pomery]

... price war, not trade war...

Re:Brazil have the same problem

[Derek Pomery]

Oh. Another source of costs you guys might have. Regulatory compliance. Sometimes just getting things tested and approved can be very expensive.

Re:Brazil have the same problem

[Derek Pomery]

Oh. As well as import duties, you guys have both tate and federal VAT. That's not as much as ludicrous external costs, but, as well as costs imposed in producing the SSD, there are presumably costs throughout the system imposed by it. So, isn't as simple as just comparing a $100 SSD in the US to a $150 SSD in Brazil after the various VAT.

I suspect if you add all the costs together that can be thought up (regulatory, VAT, component import tariffs, possibly higher shipping costs, maybe higher business tax rate...) that you'd probably end up with something close to what those locals are charging, and that it isn't just a vast conspiracy.

Otherwise, maybe you should get in the SSD business :)

Re:Brazil have the same problem

[stephanruby]

Here we have the same problem, but in our case it affects anything and everything that comes from overseas. I have to pay three times what you Americans pay for an SSD, ridiculous is not it?

This is not the same thing.

In your case, there may still be price discrimination, but the price difference is mostly because your government wants to extract a pound of flesh from every transaction, either to protect Brazilian jobs or to gather extra income for its own government coffers/expenditures.

And please don't bid on Ebay auctions that say (no international bidders), or if you bid on an item that accepts (international bidders), don't ever assume that we'll be willing to lie for you on the customs manifest and say that the contents have zero value. Experience has proven, that even if you claim that you don't care if a shipment gets confiscated by your own customs (or claim that you don't mind paying the extra penalties for evading those customs), that you actually will care about it when it does happen (as it inevitably will), and you will be so pissed off that you will actually rate the seller super negatively (despite the seller in the US having obeyed and followed your instructions perfectly to the letter).
 

Re:Brazil have the same problem

[Derek Pomery]

Ah. So it was that. I was just speculating in my responses, but here sounds the voice of someone who apparently experienced this :)

A little quid-pro-quo offer?

[damn_registrars]

So we get iTunes downloads cheaper, you have bank accounts that actually pay meaningful interest rates. Maybe we can work out a trade?

Re:A little quid-pro-quo offer?

[erroneus]

Yes Clarice... quid pro quo... you offer me and I return to you.

Send me your money and I'll keep it in my bank account for you... :) Sounds like a wonderful idea. Want my paypal email account?

Re:A little quid-pro-quo offer?

[jkflying]

Bank accounts with high interest rates which hold currencies with high inflation. Not so useful as you'd imagine.

Re:A little quid-pro-quo offer?

[damn_registrars]

Bank accounts with high interest rates which hold currencies with high inflation. Not so useful as you'd imagine.

That's a matter of perspective. If you compare the Australian Dollar to the US Dollar, you'll see that with the exception of a big dip in 2009, the two have kept pretty steady exchange rates. I have seen Australian savings accounts paying 8%, which is well above the annual fluctuation of the two currencies against each other.

Re:A little quid-pro-quo offer?

[shellbeach]

Uh, you taken a look at the Australian inflation rate? Looks pretty much the same as the US inflation rate to me ...

The difference is that Australia has higher growth and lower unemployment, and an economy that's way healthier. The GFC didn't hit us, remember? Hence the interest rate differences ...

and they wonder why we "steal" shit,...

[AbRASiON]

Steam does this - although generally not Valve who are good about this but more big big publishers who are sharing the service with Valve. Luckily with US contacts, I can be 'gifted' games at US prices.

It's disgusting and it's bullshit, if you're willing to sell a game, or a song or a book or fuck even a physical product to an American for X price and I produce the same amount of money for you and I take care of the shipping (or downloading the fucking bits) then frankly, fuck you for trying to charge me more.

This is much worse for console using folk on PSN and the 360, sure I have a US PSN account but I don't WANT to have to buy PSN 'money' in US format from gift cards just to get games at reasonable prices and then be left with 3$ or 13$ or whatever in 'change' on my account.
Honestly this bullshit just stops me participating entirely.

About the only reasonable thing of late is PC parts in Australia, due to the proximity to Asia and the AU$ being strong so long (and of course PC parts, high turnover) for the most part, CPU's, RAM, HDD's and so on are very very close to the US. Mind you if you are picky and want something high end or obscure like high end SAS controllers and stuff like that, sorry buddy, 4x the price.

So as I started with,... they wonder why we steal shit.... sigh

Very important

[David Gerard]

Choice is really highly respected in Australia. This makes this an extremely mainstream issue, not just of geek interest.

I bypass it

[bloodhawk]

I started bypassing the GEO-Blocking from Australia 6 months ago. previously I was paying $125 a month for foxtel (Australian pay TV). I now stream Netflix, Vudu and Hulu giving me access to a movie and TV library many times the size for a fraction of the cost. I have no objection to paying for my content, I do object to the extortionate rates they try and charge us here though. I order my games internationally as well as camera gear and many other items retailers here believe we should pay 100% markup for just for the privilege of shopping here.

What?! Thwarting capitalism?! You don't say!?

[erroneus]

Actually, this is still capitalism... or the free market or whatever you like. #1 The sellers do whatever the market will bear. #2 The buyers do not want to bear it while they have alternatives. So what's the end-game here? Well? I suppose it depends on whether or not the government was getting tax revenue from these higher prices. If they were, then you can bet there will be some sort of legislation against the use of proxies or similar methods to avoid price fixing scams... or "tax avoidance."

But if this is a bunch of sellers who came to realize "hey! they expect to pay higher prices anyway, so let's make sure they do!" then to hell with them. They will lose.. they will lose without government backing. But that's kind of the way it works everywhere isn't it?

Car Maker Sell Cars Cheaper in US Than Where Built

[darrenm]

This is another great example. Here are cars being built in Canada and being sold for much less after being shipped to the US than they can be bought for in the same city they are built in.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/story/2012/06/12/ottawa-car-price-disparity-border-shopping.html

Using Canadian dollars for Canada and US in USA, but currency has been around par for the last couple of years.

As an example:
Honda builds the Acura MDX in Alliston, Ontario Canada, but to buy one from the dealer in that town costs $9,660 more (MSRP) than going to Honolulu, Hawaii USA to purchase one.

Honda says that there are different market conditions and the costs of marketing in two official languages.

Or how about Toyota that also builds Corollas in Ontario. But they charge a Freight and PDI of $1,465 in Canada versus $760 in the US.

Re:So no fould in piracy, then.

[sumdumass]

I'm not sure what you are trying to say but there is no excuse to pirate something based on a rights holder's desire to distribute. That's the entire idea behind copyright and is shared to a large degree by every country that observes copyrights- the rights owner has the sole rights to copying and distribution. Even though the laws may be different in different countries, copyright is internationally covered by several treaties that most of the world has committed to following that says the same things. This is how the US was able to get an AU citizen extradited to the US for trial over a criminal copyright violation that was not a criminal act in AU.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hew_Raymond_Griffiths
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_O'Dwyer

However, I think you missed my point in general. It takes different considerations to approve whether or not you will allow your copyright to be subject to the laws of another location that may not be the same as yours. If the copyright holders think this required an increase in royalty payments, or requires extra steps from the distributor or whatever, it is something that happens. This is not something new and ignorance of it does not create a new set of circumstances. Saying company X can sell under these laws is not the same as saying company X can sell under a different set of laws. It may cost more to sell under the other sets of laws. It really is that simple even though you can reach company X from anywhere and under any set of laws.

Re:Interesting dynamic

[bloodhawk]

The Australian situation is slightly different. Prices have always been high here, There is definitely some justification for that in the past given shipping costs, higher wages and low currency conversion rate. However over the past few years this has changed significantly and some sectors like the tech sectors are using this as an opportunity to cream extra margins at the expense of the consumer, effectively prices have increased relative to the rest of the world here by something in the order of 25-50% over the past few years, add in the fact most of these companies use off shore distributers to avoid our high tax rates here and you get the situation where the consumer and the country as a whole are actually being drained by large foreign companies. Sadly most of our local companies use the foreign companies as examples of how to do business and put the boot in too, even to the extent where you have some of the big retailers here lobbying the government to block people from being able to buy internationally over the internet by charging higher taxes on imports.

Re:Interesting dynamic

[Anonymous Coward]

If we are comparing prices for digital goods, for which it is a fair assumption that the cost of production is the same the world over, then from the point of view of the consumer the one-true-and-just-price is the lowest the vendor is willing to set. Anything higher than that is extra margin for the vendor, and consumers in those markets can justifiably feel exploited. Selling below the cost of production in an overseas market is illegal "dumping" if memory serves me right.

Now UK officials recommend obscuring other persona

[biodata]

It seems like there is some international consensus emerging that it is a bad idea to tell the internet your presonal details http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20082493

Here is where you are wrong

[Guru80]

This isn't an intellectual property issue, this is about giving the music business back to the musicians and destroying the music industry for good.

The musicians don't want to be in control of getting their songs sold or booking performances. They want the "industry". The only one's that don't are because they are already part of the "industry" themselves so they protect it. Face it, music is full of people who would be homeless and broke despite their talent if someone else wasn't there to force feed them marketing, sales, multi-million dollar contracts.

There is a relative handful that would thrive in the absence of said industry but most would be lost so for that alone we are stuck in the stone age when it comes to the music industry. Don't fool yourself, the vast majority of artists are willing to ride the Titanic to the bottom.

Re:Here is where you are wrong

[mcgrew]

The musicians don't want to be in control of getting their songs sold or booking performances. They want the "industry".

Where do you get these "data"? How many musicians do you know personally? I know quite a few, and none of them would touch an RIAA contract with a ten foot pole, despite labels courting them.

Face it, music is full of people who would be homeless and broke despite their talent

It's also full of people who are multimillionaires despite their lack of talent. If you're good, you'll get gigs.

The only one's that don't

You should have paid more attention in class, son.

Re:Here is where you are wrong

[Guru80]

Where do you get these "data"? How many musicians do you know personally? I know quite a few, and none of them would touch an RIAA contract with a ten foot pole, despite labels courting them.

I know several dozen from various fields but in the realm of music not a single one would know what to do if it wasn't for the likes of the recording industry ect. They would be doing what they did before they starting making a little money and touring; calling little hole-in-the wall bars and events within a 15 year old van drive distance and hope someone said yes. The industry hasn't survived this long on the will of a handful of powerful rich guys, the musicians are complacent and comfortable in it and you are very wrong if you believe otherwise. It simply wouldn't still exist if they, other than garage/indie bands, were out to change it from the inside. That is what it is going to take, nothing else has made them budge. I applaud those you know, I agree with them 100% but if enough artists felt that way this situation just wouldn't exist.

It's also full of people who are multimillionaires despite their lack of talent. If you're good, you'll get gigs.

It's a matter of opinion but my own is that most of the big names these days fall into that category. All the teen heart-throb, boy bands, hot chick groups exist almost solely because of the industry and the labels and that demographic of talent gives them and endless pool of potential artists to fill their ranks with. Mom and dad see the money and fame for their kids and it's locked.

You should have paid more attention in class, son.

Touche

I'm on your side here, just after watching it from the outside over the years it has become obvious the change has to start with the artist themselves and not accepting the bs to begin with. When you are big enough to change the law with your pocketbook then it's going to have to take a rebellion from the inside to change it.

Re:Here is where you are wrong

[prowler1]

The musicians don't want to be in control of getting their songs sold or booking performances. They want the "industry".

Where do you get these "data"? How many musicians do you know personally? I know quite a few, and none of them would touch an RIAA contract with a ten foot pole, despite labels courting them.

Face it, music is full of people who would be homeless and broke despite their talent

It's also full of people who are multimillionaires despite their lack of talent. If you're good, you'll get gigs.

The only one's that don't

You should have paid more attention in class, son.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head.

At a previous job of mine, I was having a conversation with the office manager (looks after office affairs like stationary etc the exciting stuff). Turns out he was a drummer in a band which had 'made it'. They had top 40 hits, toured internationally etc. He admitted that they made very little from each CD sale and that most of it went to the label and other entities. To offset this and make enough money to survive, you have to go on tours.

In the end, he gave up the band and took up his current job at the time since he made just as much money if not more as an office manager and he got to spend time with his family instead of spending 6+ months a year on tour. He said the whole inducstry was quite soul destroying since the ones making the money (the musicians) rarely got to see much of it.

I used this approach

[Gumbercules!!]

I purchased with my address spoofed as being in Russia and got a game from Steam for $17 AUD. In Australia, the game is $99 AUD.

Same game, same date, etc. It really pisses us off, down here...

It's only the purchase point that needed the IP in Russia, too. From then on, I could resume non spoofing to download it and play it. My address remained as being in Australia the whole time, too.

Re:Interesting dynamic

[Gumbercules!!]

I get where you're coming from - but you don't get where *we're* coming from.

A recent study in Australia found it's cheaper to fly to the USA ***TWICE*** and buy software than it is to buy it here.

http://www.theage.com.au/technology/technology-news/downloads-its-cheaper-to-pay-a-wage-fly-to-the-us-and-back-twice-20120718-229in.html

And that includes paying someone's wage (btw: the Age is a serious / reputable newspaper here).

For example, Microsoft Visual Studio is $8500 (that's EIGHT AND A HALF THOUSAND DOLLARS) cheaper in the USA than Australia.

This isn't bitching about a one just and true price - we are seriously being price gauged down here.

It's The Spin

[Kozar_The_Malignant]

Of course technology costs more down in Oz. it has to be manufactured to handle the fact that electrons spin widdershins down there.

could local laws contribute to this?

[jruesch]

I don't know about the laws in your country but I know that this contributes to high prices in many countries. Many countries restrict or ban the international megastores in an attempt to protect small 'mom and pop" stores. In many cases the megastore can sell an item at a price equal or lower than the small retailer can even buy it. In these cases tyhe government (and theoretically the public) has decided that local ownership is more important than the citizen's standard of living. Unless a retailer has a local presence in you country, it makes no sense for the retailer to refuse to sell you something. They are greedy bastards and would not hesitate to sell another unit if they could legally do it. If they won't sell it to you, it is because someone else is making it illegal or contract breaking to do so. I used to buy books from Canada because the Canadian publishers edit the books better. A few years ago my vendor notified me that they could no longer allow me to buy Canadian books because of new government regulations concerning intellectual property rights. It seems that the US publishers objected that the Canadian versions were violating copyright laws protecting US publishers.

Re:What?! Thwarting capitalism?! You don't say!?

[green1]

You're right in one part, it's capitalism all right, best laws money can buy.
If you take out the government interference in the market (patents, copyrights, and all the protectionist laws that go along with them) you suddenly find that the market bears a lot less abuse.

Re:Car Maker Sell Cars Cheaper in US Than Where Bu

[green1]

And yet due to protectionist legislation, it can often be difficult or impossible to import certain models to Canada to bypass the price fixing. In fact it is completely illegal to import any new vehicle from anywhere other than the US in to Canada, and even from the US you are only allowed to import the models that the manufacturer decides are importable and only with modifications listed by the manufacturer (and in some cases that only that manufacturer is allowed to make) (not to mention that the manufacturers have told their American dealerships not to sell to Canadians.)

Price differences like that would quickly be fixed by the free market if the market were allowed to be free, but lobbying has prevented it.

Re:It's not just the distributors / retailers faul

[green1]

So how come it costs more to download a file from iTunes when iTunes doesn't even need any physical presence in the country?

Re:Not saying there's a right to pirate.

[sumdumass]

There is the loss of the right to control the copying and distributing granted by law. So even if there is no $$ amount charged for it, there is a loss that the law supports recovering (statutory damages).

Your not going to be able to justify pirating something as if it is somehow legal. You can't really even make an ethical argument for it unless it's a matter of life and death (drug patents or something). You can however decide you don't care what the law says and pirating it is easier then obtaining it legally, but that is not legal. It's just an action you take.

intellectual property is not free in the EU

[YesIAmAScript]

It's insane. If they really had a common market for IP, then you could subscribe to (for example) the cheapest Premier League package of any country in the EU and watch it at your house. But you can't. It is priced country-by-country and the sellers do not compete across country lines.

Same with downloadable music or games.

It's surprising the EU isn't working to fix this.

Book Depository

[TranquilVoid]

This also works on bookdepository.co.uk which offers 'free' shipping but changes the price based on your IP location. Obviously you have to trust the proxy site with your password which may or may not be worth a couple of dollars.

Re:Car Maker Sell Cars Cheaper in US Than Where Bu

[afgam28]

Same thing with Aussie cars. It amazes me that the Australian engineered and manufactured Chevy Camaro SS (with a V8 engine) in the United States is cheaper than a Holden Commodore SV6 in Australia. For those who don't know, it's the same car underneath.