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Trouble For Microsoft Developers With the Windows Store

An anonymous reader writes "This blog post from an un-happy Microsoft developer highlights many of the problems that developers are having with submitting to the new Windows store. His app, that won 2 App X challenges from Microsoft, has been rejected 6 times over 2 months with no clear indications as to the cause. This is even after going through a rigorous early-certification process. With Windows RT relying solely on apps from the store, and there being just over 7,000 apps total, Microsoft could have a big problem here."

53 of 232 comments (clear)

  1. only 7000 apps? by wardk · · Score: 5, Funny

    that's only like 3 per RT user?

    the horror

    1. Re:only 7000 apps? by socceroos · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This isn't an Apple only problem. With any delivery system, as soon as you hit critical mass people get lost in the din. Look at music, movies, books, etc. It's all the same and Microsoft will have the same problems if they too can get their store off the ground.

    2. Re:only 7000 apps? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      If by 80% you mean 90%, and by "never been downloaded", you mean "downloaded every month", you're spot on!

      http://techcrunch.com/2012/09/12/ios-app-store-boasts-700k-apps-90-downloaded-every-month/

    3. Re:only 7000 apps? by Concerned+Onlooker · · Score: 4, Funny

      "preying on retards has always been profitable."

      Is that how Microsoft initially came to dominate?

      --
      http://www.rootstrikers.org/
    4. Re:only 7000 apps? by atlasdropperofworlds · · Score: 2

      This is just like the console wars of the 80s! My console has over 500 games, yours only 100! HAHAHAHAHA!

    5. Re:only 7000 apps? by dbraden · · Score: 2

      Simple: not all apps earn enough to cover the annual fee. On the upside, developers aren't restricted to publishing just one app.

    6. Re:only 7000 apps? by ls671 · · Score: 2

      Fuck app stores without regards for their flavor!

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    7. Re:only 7000 apps? by cbhacking · · Score: 2

      I don't own a Mac, so I've never even tried to develop for the iOS store or OS X store. However, I did look into the WP7 store. There was a (brief) time, ending almost two years ago, when you were limited to five *free* app submissions per annual fee. Paid apps didn't have this restriction, because MS would get a cut of the purchase price. The limit was quickly lifted to something like 100 app - high enough that even somebody who wanted to flood the market with junk would have to work pretty hard to hit the limit.

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
    8. Re:only 7000 apps? by Dahamma · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, there is nothing about OSX or iOS that is remotely interesting or useful, and it's all just pretty enclosures making them $40B a year in profit. You are so right and all of Apple's engineers are incompetent!

      Implementing the first iPhone was about 1% ID, 5% hardware, and the rest software by resources. And whatever you think of it personally, it absolutely redefined the mobile industry and has been so ridiculously successful it made Apple the most valuable company in the world. Fools, indeed.

    9. Re:only 7000 apps? by ByteSlicer · · Score: 2

      that's only like 3 per RT user?

      Unless the pirates steal a couple of thousands, in which case it'd be even less.

    10. Re:only 7000 apps? by Concerned+Onlooker · · Score: 4, Funny

      The difference is that cattle don't have a sense of taste even though they may taste good.

      --
      http://www.rootstrikers.org/
    11. Re:only 7000 apps? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I recently tried to use the Mac App store for the first time, and it's a complete UI disaster. Or it only has about 100 things in it, because those were the only ones that were easily discoverable by browsing. I could search and find specific applications if I knew I wanted them, but what do app developers get from Apple taking 30% of the purchase price if the potential customer has to be actively looking for their application? A credit card processor and a CDN cost a fraction of that. For small usage, PayPal or Google Checkout charge around 3% and you can host the data in Amazon's cloud and get a pretty scalable distribution system for a lot less than Apple charges (unless your app is free or no one ever buys it).

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    12. Re:only 7000 apps? by Stuarticus · · Score: 2

      I hear there's this magical invention these days called "search". Try looking it up on the google.

      --
      If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
    13. Re:only 7000 apps? by foniksonik · · Score: 2

      I have the same problem with Google's Chrome App Store, NetFlix, Walmart, the local mall, my closet, the list goes on.

      You know what seems to work? Targeted advertising. I give them information about me - in return they tell me about things I might like (at least those items somebody pays to get shown to me).

      Recommendation engines also work but often show me unpopular things and I still have to give my info out.

      Apple uses "Genius" results. Google uses your profile if you're logged in. Netflix has its famous algorithms. As for my closet... When she cares my wife picks something out though she doesn't always do as good a job as the pros.

      --
      A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
    14. Re:only 7000 apps? by PyrousLavawalker · · Score: 2

      Have you every raised cattle? OMG they are dumber than a stump. The only sign of any brains I saw was when they played king of the hill with the hay and cow pie mountain we scraped up once a week to spread on the field. Hmm, maybe it was all there methane production making them dumb. Not enough oxygen to function.

    15. Re:only 7000 apps? by tlhIngan · · Score: 2

      It's probably more then Apple's iTunes live apps. 80% of Apple apps has never been downloaded, less then %1 earned more the $1000... Apple is so technically incompetent that they utterly failed to provide any kind of discovery system for apps, therefore it is futile to develop for them anymore. Microsoft has a huge chance to win the developers here.

      An app store does not eliminate the need for marketing. Seriously, you can't get far in the world wihtout some form of advertising. "Release it and they will come" only applies to a very small niche of folks who know what they want. Most people don't, and if you invent something better (like say, a car), it won't succeed unless you start marketing it.

      Users don't discover apps. They may browse them out of curiousity, but the vast majority get their apps after learning about it from other places.

      Hell, that applies to most things in life as well. Just releasing sometihng as open-source won't make it popular, even if it fulfills the needs of a bunch of people - someone has to find it first.

      And most apps earning under $1000 isn't a big surprise - the big ones tend to have people actually doing some work and marketing their apps. Plus given around 50-70% of apps are free/freemium (which only has a 1% conversion rate), plus apps which are promotional tools moreso than apps for sales (e.g., Steam app, all those store/manufacturer/catalog apps, and I'm' sure Kindle/Kobo/Nook apps aren't designed to make money directly).

      And there's a lot of crap out there, as with any system. It happens all over the place - for every gem of an indie game, there's thousands of crap ones. For every good indie band, there's thousands of garage bands where the din of city traffic is more musical. Or YouTube.

      It's why a lot of Kickstarters fail, and why Ouya is going to have problems as well if everyone's crap game is going to be posted on it.

      And I'm pretty certain the 1% thing is probably consistent across Google Play and many other places as well (including well, running a business). It's only on highly-curated environments like Steam or consoles where the likelihood to make money is much higher (though also much harder).

      Windows App Store's advantage right now is that for the lazy, they can get in "on the ground floor". But when it gets popular, that 1% rule will apply as well.

  2. "could have a big problem" by Chas · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Uhm. The OS is released and there's major dumb-fuckery going on in their online store, the ONLY place you can buy apps from for certain versions of the new OS.

    That's not a "could have a big problem" thing.

    That's a "HAS a big problem" thing.

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
    1. Re:"could have a big problem" by socceroos · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I see this tablet/phone foray as one of Microsoft's last rolls of the dice. If this doesn't work then they'll be marginalized sooner rather than later. I know its been 'heralded' for too long, but we are actually seeing a shift in the primary use of computers. PCs, like it or not are fast heading towards niche status.

      I advise you to now swallow a few grains of salt.

    2. Re:"could have a big problem" by girlintraining · · Score: 5, Funny

      That's a "HAS a big problem" thing.

      Problem, n.: A feature. -- The New Ballmer Dictionary

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    3. Re:"could have a big problem" by wvmarle · · Score: 2

      Quality over quantity any time.

      However too little quantity is not good - both Apple and Google have about 100 time more apps in their stores... MS has a long way to go.

      And somehow I hope they make it. Not that I care much about MS as such, it'd be great to have a third viable competitor in this market. And MS Is pretty much the only company that I can think of that could pull that off.

    4. Re:"could have a big problem" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      I've been working in the same building as the group developing the Windows Store, and this is a bit surprising. They've been putting a *LOT* of work into it for quite some time, and it seems well-organized, but I'm not a developer myself so that's just my impression.

    5. Re:"could have a big problem" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

      Meh, this is all part of the plan!

      A few people will buy the Surface and they'll say "My God! Tablets are just awful! I vow to stick with PCs and never look at anything else ever!" Problem solved.

    6. Re:"could have a big problem" by caballew · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I don't see MS and/or PCs being marginalized simply because business won't adopt Win 8 RT if it means their in-house software as well as other specialized software can't be used unless MS approves it in their App store. This might affect individuals but not business clients from small business to enterprise clients. With these restrictions, development for Android will only grow while development for Win 8 RT will whither after the initial rush of early development. Sorta like how SPARC and DEC lost out in the business desktop and small server application race; poor business model equals failure. There are still way too many businesses using XP that haven't even upgraded to Win7 because of legacy and in-house software .

    7. Re:"could have a big problem" by fm6 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Why do you think that another mobile failure will marginalize MS? None of the previous ones did. Are you under the impression that everybody's going to throw away their PC and start using a tablet? That's not what's happening. PC sales are stagnant because the market's saturated. Tablet sales are booming because it's new use case that users are just beginning to move to. One is not being replaced by the other.

      It's true that this is going to hurt MS. But they'll still collect a tithe for every non-Mac PC sold, and they'll still sell a lot of server licenses. As these markets saturate, they will cease to make MS uber-profitable, but these markets are still big, and will remain so — as will Microsoft.

    8. Re:"could have a big problem" by cbhacking · · Score: 4, Interesting

      For those who prefer metric, that's about 195.6 cm. He's well above 99th percentile for height. Big, too. Kind of an imposing-looking guy, in fact.

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
    9. Re:"could have a big problem" by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Are you under the impression that everybody's going to throw away their PC and start using a tablet?

      Nope, but I ain't gonna buy any PC/Laptop/Tablet/Smartphone with Win8 either.

      --
      Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    10. Re:"could have a big problem" by Stalks · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is one guys story about a single app. I think I will reserve judgement.

    11. Re:"could have a big problem" by Chas · · Score: 2

      Well, there's the whole "No plan survives contact with the enemy." thing going on.

      They can do all sorts of studies and modelling and focus group testing and STILL have stuff get broke all to hell by the general populace.

      And, organized or not, there's always the possibility that the development and implementation teams quite simply didn't fully grasp the product they were trying to deliver nor the processes required to deliver it in a usable format.

      So you get things like "Your apps is great! It's stellar! We want it in the market so bad! So we're going to expedite this by refusing to put it up. Oh. And we don't have a reason why. Uhh...Oh look! SQUIRREL!" *Wildhandwaving*

      --


      Chas - The one, the only.
      THANK GOD!!!
  3. Clearly this is Apple's fault by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    First they reject apps on their own store, now they're rejecting apps on Microsoft's store! When will the insanity end?

    1. Re:Clearly this is Apple's fault by M.+Baranczak · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well, MS already copied everything else from Apple. This shouldn't come as a surprise.

  4. Existing Functionality. by PlusFiveTroll · · Score: 3, Funny

    I tried to submit and app called the Windows Store but it was rejected because it duplicated the existing functionality of the Apple App Store.

  5. Developers by PPH · · Score: 5, Funny

    Developers! Developers! Developers!

    Developers?

    [sound of crickets]

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
    1. Re:Developers by wvmarle · · Score: 2

      They're all working on Android and iOS already!

  6. I really tried to care... by TWX · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...honestly, but between Apple's psychotic terms and Google's loose terms leading to virus problems, I really just don't care. Someone will come up with a third-party installer that won't require any kind of permission or certification from Redmond, and since the bulk of people who'll have a snowball's chance in hell of actually noticing this deficiency will use that third-party loader, it won't really matter. If anything it'll allow for a separation between the mundane, boring user and the geek, techie, nerd, what have you.

    Is post-geek a label? As in, one who used to pay attention to the excessive details of digging deep into how something works, but now has graduated into the realization that one can do whatever one needs to do with just about any tools or platform or system and no longer has a need to scrutinize so strongly because one's skills are good enough to weather any circumstances regardless of the technological changes?

    --
    Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    1. Re:I really tried to care... by wvmarle · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In between those I strongly prefer Google's terms.

      First of all the Play Store has little virus issues. No idea on numbers, but it's not that I hear often about viruses in apps. Certainly the more popular apps are generally safe. And Apples app store is also not 100% clean, the vetting process is far from perfect.

      I don't use third-party stores, but I have installed software directly from an app vendor's site. And have installed my own apps directly on my phone, without any issues. Having these possibilities is great. Being limited to a single store, and not being able to easily install apps in any other way, that just sucks.

      Even if the Play Store started vetting their apps, then still not much lost as you're not limited to that store. There are alternatives. Unfortunately MS decides to go the Apple way - forgetting how the openness of Windows is part of what made the platform so ubiquitous.

    2. Re:I really tried to care... by TubeSteak · · Score: 4, Funny

      Is post-geek a label? As in, one who used to pay attention to the excessive details of digging deep into how something works, but now has graduated into the realization that one can do whatever one needs to do with just about any tools or platform or system and no longer has a need to scrutinize so strongly because one's skills are good enough to weather any circumstances regardless of the technological changes?

      Not everyone's skills are good enough.
      But TWX (665546), you're not alone.
      There is hope and there is help: Ask Slashdot: Rectifying Nerd Arrogance?

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    3. Re:I really tried to care... by deblau · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You aren't post-geek, you've just graduated past the larval stage. :P

      --
      This post expresses my opinion, not that of my employer. And yes, IAAL.
    4. Re:I really tried to care... by girlintraining · · Score: 2

      Is post-geek a label? As in, one who used to pay attention to the excessive details of digging deep into how something works, but now has graduated into the realization that one can do whatever one needs to do with just about any tools or platform or system and no longer has a need to scrutinize so strongly because one's skills are good enough to weather any circumstances regardless of the technological changes?

      No, it's called maturity. It can happen as early as your late 20s, but typically it takes until the mid-30s to manifest. Other symptoms include being in bed by midnight, not being as good as you remember at first-person shooter games, and drinking coffee with a reasonable amount of sugar and creamer rather than dumping the lot into every cup and having a quarter-inch of sludge at the bottom.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    5. Re:I really tried to care... by sincewhen · · Score: 2

      "post geek" - Interesting. But in my own case it is more like "too old and too cranky to put up with time-wasting crap any more".

      --
      -- Braden's law of data: All data spends some of its lifetime in an excel spreadsheet.
    6. Re:I really tried to care... by jyx · · Score: 3, Funny

      No, it's called maturity. It can happen as early as your late 20s, but typically it takes until the mid-30s to manifest. Other symptoms include being in bed by midnight, not being as good as you remember at first-person shooter games

      Please stop stalking me.

    7. Re:I really tried to care... by LordNightwalker · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Is post-geek a label? As in, one who used to pay attention to the excessive details of digging deep into how something works, but now has graduated into the realization that one can do whatever one needs to do with just about any tools or platform or system and no longer has a need to scrutinize so strongly because one's skills are good enough to weather any circumstances regardless of the technological changes?

      Indeed, if you're more obsessed with your tools than with your work, you might want to reconsider your priorities. Still, doesn't mean you have to be content with inferior tools. Just realize that in the end what matters is that they allow you to work more productively and deliver better quality; if your search for a productivity boosting tool results in not getting anything done, you're doing it wrong.

      --
      Install windows on my workstation? You crazy? Got any idea how much I paid for the damn thing?
  7. "Fix security at any cost." by hessian · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Most computer users don't want a Wild West computer experience. They want a safe, functional one where the computer interface is as inobtrusive as possible. They want as little burden on their consciousness as possible, so they can focus on what they want to use the computer to do in the first place.

    When you have an audience like that, expect tradeoffs. Less flexibility, more stability. Fewer options, more consistency. And now, the days of downloading random bits of code are over.

    For 90% of the users out there, this will be a great experience. The rest will dual-boot...

  8. Is this app really necessary? by Animats · · Score: 2

    "Swipe or scroll through a continuous collage of all your photos, dynamically generated as you browse. The layout is different every time, bringing your attention to new photos each time you browse a folder."

    Nobody is going to miss that.

  9. Re:this guy is an idiot by cbhacking · · Score: 5, Interesting

    No, pretty sure *you* are the idiot here. If you'd actually RTFA, instead of whatever brief skim you took, you'd have seen that the guy ran WACK every time... and that it always ran clean on his system. He eventually got a failure out of it by running his VM's performance down to the Win8 mimum specs, but even after fixing that he continued getting unexplained errors from the certification process that didn't show up on his local system.

    Also, WACK failed to catch a very simple and obvious thing - a piece of dev/test code that he'd left in a constructor, which will crash the app when run if installed from the store - that it clearly should have. That's exactly the kind of thing that static analysis should have found.

    I'm rather shocked by Microsoft's failures, here. Usually, they're very good with dev tools and communication. Not this time, it seems. You'd think they'd have learned from the problems Apple had... it almost feels like they're trying to repeat Apple's mistakes too.

    --
    There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
  10. Re:Nothing suspends correctly by tepples · · Score: 2

    If writing a single string "in a machine with low memory, slow cpu" through the provided API takes more than two seconds, then nothing can pass the test.

  11. Re:MS succeded by cbhacking · · Score: 4, Informative

    Mind you, unlike on iOS, Microsoft permits app sideloading (even on ARM devices), with no extra costs or limits that I've seen yet.

    Open Powershell as Admin
    Enter the command: Show-WindowsDeveloperLicenseRegistration
    Enter your Windows Live credentials
    Download and sideload apps to your heart's content.

    --
    There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
  12. Actually doesn't really matter to it by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The Surface was dead before it ever launched. The reason is that there is no tablet market, there's an iPad market.

    Most people have no use for tablets. There are niche uses (the in medicine) but by and large there just isn't a real use for tablets. People are not going to be able to get rid of their computers because tablets are lousy for content creation, even basic content like writing an e-mail or forum post. However they aren't portable like a smartphone so you don't take it with you all the time. They try to fill a niche where your smartphone isn't large enough for what you need, but your laptop isn't portable enough. There is almost none of that in a normal person's life. I've yet to meet someone that has dumped their smartphone or computer for their tablet and as such they really don't need it.

    However, the iPad is a cool tech toy, and fashion accessory, to have. People want one because it is cool, not because they need it. They want to be seen with it and they want to mess around with it. However that is only the case because it is an iPad. Apple makes the cool consumer electronics currently. MS never will, they are horrible at selling style.

    So they are trying to get in to a market that just isn't there. Tablets are going to fade away as the fad passes. People will find that their smartphone is just more convenient for the "small" computing needs and that a laptop or maybe desktop are better when you need to do some work or the like.

    Even if they had a stellar app store with tons of apps the surface still wouldn't go anywhere because nobody gives a shit because it isn't an iPad.

    1. Re:Actually doesn't really matter to it by homsar · · Score: 3, Funny

      I've yet to meet someone that has dumped their smartphone or computer for their tablet and as such they really don't need it.

      I've yet to meet someone who has dumped their smartphone or computer for their toaster, guess they don't need that either.

  13. Goddamn "evangelists" by Rogerborg · · Score: 5, Interesting

    How apt: belief based development.

    Back in the mid 90s, I worked at a games company where we were struggling to get the performance of Direct3D Retained Mode (anyone else remember that?) up to anywhere near Glide levels on Voodoo hardware. It was "escalated" until some DirectX "evangelist" rocked up at our office to "assist."

    His "assistance" consisted of looking out of the window and telling us that we must be doing something wrong, because his developers assured him that D3DRM should perform better than anything that we could roll ourselves.

    "Look," we said, "here's the same app, showing the same scene, and the framerate of the D3DRM version is half that of Glide."

    But he wouldn't look. He literally wouldn't look at the screens. He wouldn't even acknowledge the problem. Just kept going on about how we must be mis-using it, because he had been assured.

    Needless to say, we dropped D3DRM, as did everyone else, and it died in a corner, alone and unloved. But it did give us a valuable insight into the developer and "evangelist" culture at Microsoft. I think all Windows developers learn it eventually, which is why Microsoft need a constant influx of bright eyed, bushy tailed young suckers who'll fall for the line that they only hurt us because they love us so much.

    --
    If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
  14. Not just app store - MS developer key nightmare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Its not just the app store that is the problem. I was about to purchase a MSDN subscription, and took a peek at the current situation with respect to license keys and installation of developer operating systems, and couldn't believe how much effort MS must have expended in creating such a confusing and unmanageable mess. They wont get my money. It is much more expedient to NOT develop for Windows. I will continue developing for various mobile platforms, and Linux, and even IOS, but MS has made everything far too difficult.

    It would seem that MS has never really properly weighed up the economics of draconian license keys vs the benefits of implicitly TRUSTING THEIR DEVELOPERS. MS used to trust me as a developer - and I behaved 100% in accordance with that trust - but now they DON'T TRUST ME and as a result I NOW HATE THEM. That is the outcome they have generated. I will never purchase an MSDN subscription ever again.

  15. Have MS forgotten what a stack trace is? by AC-x · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Why the hell aren't Microsoft sending stack traces of crashes back to developers? Are they so incompetent that they've forgotten how software is developed?

    1. Re:Have MS forgotten what a stack trace is? by AC-x · · Score: 2

      You actually do get pretty good reports back about the certification process and what is failing, but if the failure is a generic "the application crashed", Microsoft isn't your QA department. Its not the job of the application verifiers to figure out how you might be logging, or if you crashed and YOU showed the error, or if it dumped back to the OS as an unhandled error. They're not a free QA outsourcing organization.

      Not giving any kind of indication of how it crashed, or even what environment it's being run under, doesn't seem like a good report to me. How are you supposed to fix a crash issue when you've never been able to replicate it and have no idea what setup it's being run on?

      As MS seem to run the application under some kind of automated test suite it shouldn't be too hard for them to catch the error with an automated debugger, generate a quick stack trace report and send that back to the dev with the spec of the test machine so they can replicate it.

      Maybe MS are taking the Apple attitude of "Your app didn't get approved? Too bad for you" rather than actually wanting the app and helping the developer get it approved.

  16. Typical MS... by bigwavedave33 · · Score: 2

    Must be because MS is diligently "re-writting" something very similar to the app trying to get published. Nah MS has never done that.