Journalist Arrested In Greece For Publishing List of Possible Tax-Evaders

kyriacos writes "The Greek government is charging journalist Kostas Vaxevanis with violation of the data privacy law for publishing a list of about 2,000 Greeks who hold accounts with the HSBC bank in Switzerland. While more and more austerity measures are being taken against the people of Greece, there is still no investigation of tax evasion for the people on this list by the government. The list has been in the possession of the Greek government since 2010."

Comments

He should be jailed

[multiben]

Evading tax is every Greeks' right and what has made Greece the economic powerhouse it is today.

Re:He should be jailed

[PolygamousRanchKid]

My first thought was, "Who needs a list? Just pick up a copy of the Athens Telephone Book."

Re:He should be jailed

[Sulphur]

My first thought was, "Who needs a list? Just pick up a copy of the Athens Telephone Book."

What an unorthodox use of mathematical symbols.

Re:He should be jailed

[Dahamma]

You joke, but my Greek friend (who's family has a house in Athens that they probably don't pay taxes one) freely admitted tax evasion is practically a national pastime in Greece. They really do consider it not only a right, but almost an obligation.

And you wonder how the Olympics almost bankrupted the government? Well, that attitude towards taxes makes the statement "oh, all of the tax revenues from increased tourism and business in Greece will more than make up for the expenses" a bit hard to back up...

Re:He should be jailed

[rainhill]

Evading tax is every Greeks' right and what has made Greece the economic powerhouse it is today.

Greeks evading tax? Blame on Turks.

Re:He should be jailed

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, if your friend told you so, then by all means you're right to be modded "informative". Although the truth is that only a minority of the people tax evade in Greece. People who are not self-employed or business owners, get their taxes withheld from their monthly salary (and that makes about 60% of the greek workforce). They may or may not pay more or get some money back at the end of the year, depending on their total income/spending.

The are reasons that the view that we shouldn't pay taxes is somewhat more widespread in Greece than in other countries, though. When you have a corrupt government, and a broken down pubic education and healthcare system, you really don't like giving part of the wealth you produce to bankers, weapon dealers and friends of the govenment. Greece was one of the top countries in buying weapons (mainly from the U.S.) before the crisis started, and there were tons of scandals involving greek politicians getting money under the table to close some weapon deals.

Moreover, the greek tax system resembles the way the Mafia works. Every year, for the last ten years, the government makes you an offer. It'll ask for about 500-1000 euros (depending on how much income you actually declared) and in return they promise to never check your books for that year. The more you're tax evading, the more of a bargain this is. If you're not tax evading though, you'll probably take their offer anyway. Why? Because Greece has a very complicated tax system and if they check your tax declarations really close (which they'll do if you don't take their offer) they'll probably find something to fine you for an you'll end up paying more. Although this has slowed down a bit the last 2-3 years, as people don't have 500 euros to pay to the IRS anyway.

Oh, and the Olympics did not bankrupt the government because of tax evasion. They bankrupted the government because the construction companies in greece are in bed with the governement (the same ppl own the media and most of the banks). The government paid huge amounts for the olympic works to the construction companies. I still recall the case of a stadium that was to be renovated for a budget of a million euros. We ended up paying 20.

The money that greece is being given now (as debt), move in two directions: most of them, repay previous loans (so they go to banks), and some of them go directly to the greek banks. So, the german taxpayer loans money to the greek government. The money go straight to the greek and foreign banks and the greek people now have a debt towards the german (and the rest of the EU) people. It's not fair for the greek people and it's not fair for the german people.

The greek media all support the current status quo and for a good reason. There are no greek media that are economically succesfull. They have never been, not for one year. They survive with loans. The only reason that banks loan money year after year to the greek media although they know that they're not going to get paid back, is that the media in return support the current situation.

Re:He should be jailed

[dinfinity]

I don't know how it is over there, but most people I know are proud of it when they evade paying (some) taxes (in one of the richest countries of the world). Even the righteous ones.
I think it's mainly that the way in which paying income taxes is done is experienced too much like a game. You get to fill in some (digital) form with lots of variables and if you find the right values, you get or save a bundle of money. It equates finding a tax loophole or even just being aware of certain deductibles to some kind of glitch in a game one can exploit. Like a trick you've learnt; in this case a trick that pays off quite significantly.

The anguish one should feel when 'stealing from society' is probably suppressed by several things:
The complexity of most tax codes probably aids in soothing people's minds by allowing them to think that they probably are or have been overlooking deductibles they are entitled to.
And of course, very few people would like to admit that they probably spend their money a lot more frivolous than their government does. They simply recall some ill-advised bit of government spending and convince themselves that it will be better for the country if they get to spend that money.

One of the things that is being done in my country to mitigate the 'game' aspect is to have most if not all of the details already filled in when you download the program to do your tax returns. This doesn't preclude gaming the tax system (and people with lots of money probably still will), but many more people would then simply look over the data and confirm it, not being invited to start playing at all. Some people will refrain from paying an expert to do their tax returns, which also means less gaming.

Simplifying an unnecessarily complex tax code is a no brainer. Improving the opinion of the populace when it comes to the prudence of government spending is something that isn't done enough, however. One of my replies to people bitching about paying taxes is whether they've ever driven a car across our border to one of our neighboring countries and experienced how crappy the roads get almost immediately. After they concur and share some crappy road-experience, I remind them that they can choose between great roads or pay less taxes for them, but not both. Most choose great roads (although some insist that somebody else but them should be paying for them).
BTW, I am not arguing that there isn't a lot that can be improved to the spending of most governments, just that public opinion of paying taxes is skewed in the wrong direction and should be improved.

Also, I am not government employed or linked to it in any way. Just trying to be rational.

Re:He should be jailed

[K. S. Kyosuke]

My first thought was, "Who needs a list? Just pick up a copy of the Athens Telephone Book."

What an unorthodox use of mathematical symbols.

Hey, they've invented western mathematics after all, and subsequently were so chuffed about it that they started writing prose in math symbols. Can you blame them?

Re:He should be jailed

[K. S. Kyosuke]

broken down pubic education

I blame the Greek Orthodox Church for that. They're complete nuts about that stuff.

Re:He should be jailed

[Anonymous Coward]

I have lived in Greece, you are right. The majority of those working in Greece are employed by the government and simply cannot evade tax. Not possible. There are very few meaningful deductions a government employee can make in Greece. Only self-employed and companies can effectively fiddle the books.

Many Greeks say the real problem in Greece is not tax evasion - that just makes for convenient scapegoats. It's corrupt politicians in a feeding frenzy at the public coffers. It's the enormously inefficient antiquated systems that exist only to create and maintain jobs (= votes) and not to achieve growth. And the moment anybody tries to improve anything in Greece, everyone screams blue murder.

Re:He should be jailed

[dinfinity]

It almost does. There is also a tax on car ownership (varying with the ecofriendliness of the car - rated fuel efficiency etc.). If you add these together, they pay for road construction and maintenance quite handily.
But to me, the point is moot. I believe everybody should contribute to proper infrastructure: even people who have never driven a single kilometer benefit greatly from the existence of proper roads. I see taxing fuel and car ownership as an efficiency encouraging policy, nothing more.

Anyway, it does not matter regarding reminding people of the virtues of taxes. There are many examples available, it's just one example with commonly experienced tangible differences between countries. Reminding someone they've hardly ever, if ever, seen a single power blackout just doesn't really ring home. People are so used to stuff just working that they don't realize that it works and even exists because of a government that spends tax money making sure that it does.
That is the issue: people think "It's supposed to work. Duh." yet forget that high quality public facilities don't materialize out of thin air (or free market fairy dust, for that matter).

Re:He should be jailed

[In hydraulis]

Twenty euros for a stadium renovation ain't so bad.

Re:He should be jailed

[megahurts.gr]

Rome is the capital of Italy, not Greece. You must be thinking of Athens. Other than that, you are right.

Re:He should be jailed

[lsatenstein]

Well, if your friend told you so, then by all means you're right to be modded "informative". Although the truth is that only a minority of the people tax evade in Greece. People who are not self-employed or business owners, get their taxes withheld from their monthly salary (and that makes about 60% of the greek workforce). They may or may not pay more or get some money back at the end of the year, depending on their total income/spending.

The are reasons that the view that we shouldn't pay taxes is somewhat more widespread in Greece than in other countries, though. When you have a corrupt government, and a broken down pubic education and healthcare system, you really don't like giving part of the wealth you produce to bankers, weapon dealers and friends of the govenment. Greece was one of the top countries in buying weapons (mainly from the U.S.) before the crisis started, and there were tons of scandals involving greek politicians getting money under the table to close some weapon deals.

Moreover, the greek tax system resembles the way the Mafia works. Every year, for the last ten years, the government makes you an offer. It'll ask for about 500-1000 euros (depending on how much income you actually declared) and in return they promise to never check your books for that year. The more you're tax evading, the more of a bargain this is. If you're not tax evading though, you'll probably take their offer anyway. Why? Because Greece has a very complicated tax system and if they check your tax declarations really close (which they'll do if you don't take their offer) they'll probably find something to fine you for an you'll end up paying more. Although this has slowed down a bit the last 2-3 years, as people don't have 500 euros to pay to the IRS anyway.

Oh, and the Olympics did not bankrupt the government because of tax evasion. They bankrupted the government because the construction companies in greece are in bed with the governement (the same ppl own the media and most of the banks). The government paid huge amounts for the olympic works to the construction companies. I still recall the case of a stadium that was to be renovated for a budget of a million euros. We ended up paying 20.

The money that greece is being given now (as debt), move in two directions: most of them, repay previous loans (so they go to banks), and some of them go directly to the greek banks. So, the german taxpayer loans money to the greek government. The money go straight to the greek and foreign banks and the greek people now have a debt towards the german (and the rest of the EU) people. It's not fair for the greek people and it's not fair for the german people.

The greek media all support the current status quo and for a good reason. There are no greek media that are economically succesfull. They have never been, not for one year. They survive with loans. The only reason that banks loan money year after year to the greek media although they know that they're not going to get paid back, is that the media in return support the current situation.

=============
Are you wrining about Greece, or Quebec Canada. No matter! I bet the same practice takes place in your Republican Back Yards

Re:He should be jailed

[cayenne8]

In this and your other post...you seem to maybe have a problem with people taking advantage of the existing tax laws, and using every legal means to keep as much of their hard earned money as they can from the tax man.

Do you forgo the legal deductions you can take? I don't know where you're from, but say in the US, you get to take a deduction for your home mortgage, and one for every child you have...etc.

Would you say people shouldn't take advantage of those?

Frankly, I do agree with you that the tax codes are WAY too complex. I would vote heartily...for basically a flat tax, with no deductions...none.

You make x dollars...you pay x% of that as tax. We stop giving deductions and loopholes as a method to try to alter behavior. Make taxes once again what they are for...purely as a means to fund govt.

Would you agree to something along those lines?

Re:He should be jailed

[dinfinity]

High income inequalities are a very bad idea, they lead to high crime rates. A flat tax does not make as much sense as it sounds as the value of money decreases exponentially. Paying 5 million out of 10 million is very different from paying 500 out of 1000. That is why progressive tax rates make sense.

Continuing, I don't have a problem if everybody gets the deductions they are entitled to. The reality is that people that can afford the time or investment can 'save' a lot of money on their taxes by having an expert doing them and bending the rules here and there. Most uneducated/poor people/people that actually need deductions don't have that luxury.

More importantly, I think people view taxes and the governement as something evil (I'd say calling them 'the tax man' qualifies ;-), even though they are in fact an essential part of civilization. Lowering taxes is not the solution to an apparently failing government. Making it not fail is the solution to an apparently failing government.

Re:He should be jailed

[Dahamma]

Well, if your friend told you so, then by all means you're right to be modded "informative"

Oh give me a break, it's not like this is something unheard of, it IS an accepted fact that tax evasion in Greece is a huge problem for the government. And of course it's not just the taxpayers fault, nor is everyone doing it (if you have been following American politics at all "47%" of the US doesn't effectively pay any taxes - "the minority" of people doesn't mean it's a small amount of tax revenue - the wealthy in Greece have higher tax bills, and are doing most of the evading). But blaming "the government" for everything (hello, ALL governments spend money on stupid things and are corrupt to some extent) is such a cop out.

And just in case for some bizarre reason you want to pretend it's something I just "heard from one person", here are a few of the thousands of articles written on the topic:

[Some of my favorite quotes - and I'm pretty sure "only the stupid pay tax" would be considering evasion "as an obligation"...]

    * Cash provides a convenient escape route for lawyers, accountants and builders. The government has published the names of almost 70 doctors it says have cheated the taxman and some surgeons are said to be earning €900,000 a year and not declaring tax.

    * “Only the stupid pay tax,” one eye surgeon told a Greek state radio.

    * Helicopters have been hovering over plush suburbs in northern Athens in the search for swimming pools in the homes of professional people who claim they are living on only €35,000-€43,000 a year. ... The swimming pool fraternity are also responding by using nets to cover the pools to avoid detection.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8585593/Greece-loses-15bn-a-year-to-tax-evasion.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_evasion_and_corruption_in_Greece

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/09/greece-tax-evasion-professional-classes

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/07/09/how-greek-tax-evasion-sunk-the-global-economy/

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/06/business/global/greece-warns-of-going-broke-as-taxes-dry-up.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2012/09/tax-evasion-greece

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203937004578076801161935378.html

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial/2011/07/11/110711ta_talk_surowiecki

Re:He should be jailed

[cayenne8]

High income inequalities are a very bad idea, they lead to high crime rates. A flat tax does not make as much sense as it sounds as the value of money decreases exponentially. Paying 5 million out of 10 million is very different from paying 500 out of 1000. That is why progressive tax rates make sense.

I don't have a problem with the flat tax or fair tax being somewhat progressive...or at least....give a break on the first $x dollars someone makes and no tax on food, and meds and other necessities.

But that's it. Make it simple...the tax form should not be longer than one page....and I believe everyone that works, should have to pay something...no one gets a free ride, and no one gets back more than they put in.

I'd be in favor of getting rid of the income tax..and have a national sales tax..again, exempting the necessities of life for the poor. I think you'd catch a lot more income that way that is currently hidden...and the rich would still pay a great deal more (since they buy more quantities of more expensive items)....etc.

Re:He should be jailed

[Dahamma]

Tax evasion != tax breaks.

Plenty of people brag about their legal tax breaks, but I don't know too many people in the US bragging about tax evasion. Even criminals aren't that stupid (see Al Capone, et al.). Probably because in the US willful tax evasion will get you federal prison time if you're caught.

In Greece the issue is people not paying the taxes they legally *owe*, and the government either being pussies who won't enforce it or corrupt so that a few bribes get the collectors to ignore it.

And this is so far from "simplifying an unnecessarily complex tax code." Doctors and lawyers getting paid in cash and stashing it in foreign bank accounts and wealthy homeowners hiding their swimming pools with tarps is not someone who doesn't understand the law, it's someone who understands it well and doesn't care about it.

Re:He should be jailed

[kaatochacha]

Filling out forms isn't evading taxes, it's following the law.
Evading would be if you lied on your forms about what you earn.
This is essentially the argument in favor of a simpler tax code: less room for "wiggle".
One thing that would stop this evasion would be a flat tax, but everyone busts a vessel when this is suggested.

Re:He should be jailed

[shutdown -p now]

People who are not self-employed or business owners, get their taxes withheld from their monthly salary (and that makes about 60% of the greek workforce).

I'm not Greek, but I hail from another country where tax evasion is pervasive, and the above has never been a problem. What happens is that, on paper, people get paid the minimum wage, and in practice they get their real salary in cash in an unmarked envelope.

Re:He should be jailed

[coolmadsi]

The are reasons that the view that we shouldn't pay taxes is somewhat more widespread in Greece than in other countries, though. When you have a corrupt government, and a broken down pubic education and healthcare system, you really don't like giving part of the wealth you produce to bankers, weapon dealers and friends of the govenment.

I take it those who avoid tax because they don't want the government getting it invest heavily in local schools and hospitals instead, right?

Re:He should be jailed

[Hognoxious]

After they concur and share some crappy road-experience, I remind them that they can choose between great roads or pay less taxes for them, but not both.

Missing option: get the Germans to pay for your roads.

Re:He should be jailed

[Hognoxious]

In this and your other post...you seem to maybe have a problem with people taking advantage of the existing tax laws, and using every legal means to keep as much of their hard earned money as they can from the tax man.

Umm, that definitely isn't what's going on in Greece. You couldn't even point to it on a map, but you think you're an expert.

Re:He should be jailed

[dinfinity]

Tax evasion != tax breaks.

Very true. But I know many, many people who will proudly say how they've 'forgotten' to put things in their tax return or have created certain constructions that are very improbable to ever be uncovered or punished. Most people here see it as a minor offense. Like speeding, which incidentally is really expensive here and described as a way to 'milk hardworking tax payers' (by said tax payers).

Re:He should be jailed

[Hognoxious]

Every year, for the last ten years, the government makes you an offer. It'll ask for about 500-1000 euros (depending on how much income you actually declared) and in return they promise to never check your books for that year.

It isn't the government, it's the inspectors. It goes straight in their back pockets.

Re:He should be jailed

[Hognoxious]

You must be thinking of Athens.

I guess so. He did mention Athenians, after all.

Get out of Greece now.

[Animats]

If you're in Greece and don't already have your money out of the country, you're an idiot. This isn't about taxes. It's about Greece threatening to leave the euro area, switch to a local currency (bring back the drachma!), and printing money to get out of their financial disaster. People in Greece, as EU residents, have no obligation to participate in this. The EU encourages cross-border banking. So everybody with any significant cash is moving it to German, French, or Swiss banks in case the axe falls.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes everybody pull your money out because that will make it better.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[MtHuurne]

The difference between a Swiss bank and a bank in another European country is that Swiss banks don't share information about the account balance with the governments of their respective clients. So while having a Swiss bank account doesn't necessarily mean someone is evading taxes, the vast majority of the people evading taxes will use Swiss bank accounts.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's about Greece threatening to leave the euro area

Threatening? the Euro zone is threatened by Greece STAYING in the Euro area. Leaving it will be the best for everyone else, but it will be the hardest for the greek people as they will actually be expected to pay back their loans.

Seriosly, big finance like this is so screwed up that even the most pro-capitalist can't defend it.

EU politicians are caught asking for 50 million dollar (euro) bribes , the latest one for the tobacco EU top dog. Serious money that.

How much do you think Greece paid...pays?

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Anonymous Coward]

Local currencies are bad how, exactly? It seems that participating in the euro has brought forced austerity measures and foreigners dictating local policy, wages, benefits, etc. When somebody else controls your money, it matters rather little who runs your government.

I mean, it's not like, to dip into recent history, the ex leaders of Iraq and Libya suddenly became bad guys. They were bad guys for years and we didn't care, other than the occasional one sided ass whipping they got once in a while. Now, when they decided to make moves that would make them independent of the US dollar, all of the sudden THEN they become problems worth dealing with.

That doesn't matter, though, because while I'd love to blame that on Fox News, which is deserving of so much condemnation, the fact is that no US news source with a mass following reports on these things. So you end up with a population ignorant of why the rest of the world hates us, which is susceptible to such claptrap as "the terrorists hate us for our freedom" and other such nonsense like that. It really is all about money, and the banksters don't care who gets trampled on as long as they win. Watch what's going to happen in Greece if they seriously get someone in charge who really has the potential and the willingness to leave the euro.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[HornWumpus]

WTF does any of this mess have to do with capitalism?

Seriosly, big finance like this is so screwed up that even the most pro-government run economy can't defend it.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Zapotek]

Maybe in the good'ol days, but unless my memory fails me, they crumbled a few years ago under international pressure in order to assist in investigating tax evaders.

PS. The "good'ol days" part was added for comedic effect, I'm actually Greek and have been paying taxes since I got my first semi-real job at 17.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Anonymous Coward]

Shouldn't you be out occupying a Starbucks?

You are wrong on so many points it's absurd. Greece has had 30 years to get its finances in order, but corruption prevailed. Greece wants to stay in the Euro zone because leaving it would collapse the last of the international trade they do.
The best thing for Greece in the short term would be bankrupcy because that would clear the debt, but in the long term it wouldn't change anything about its abysmal economy and the endemic tax dodging and would mean leaving the Eurozone. Also its creditors won't get paid which shifts the economic burden onto the rest of the world. Also there is no need to move the cash out of Greece, because it was moved to Swizerland (which is not part of the European banking union by the way) long ago.

With such a lack of understanding of basic economics in the world, it's no wonder the whole house of cards is on the brink of collapse.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[HornWumpus]

They crumbled for new money.

If you have a numbered account (opened before 1950 IIRC) your family secrets are still safe with the Swiss.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[hairyfeet]

Actually getting out of the Euro would probably be a smart thing, as they will frankly NEVER be able to pay back the loans and most likely the people will revolt over the measures being imposed on them in return for the loans.

Whether you agree or disagree with the direction Greece is headed you simply can't force the people to accept what essentially was a crooked deal between the large banks like JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs (Why am I not surprised that GS was involved? I swear they are Wolfram & Hart, and I wouldn't be shocked if their board was demons in Gucci suits) and the former government.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Baloroth]

The irony about gold is that the current high price is the result of an artificial bubble maintained by gold sellers pushing the staying power of gold. You didn't think those advertisements telling you to buy gold were for your own good, did you? No, they are to drive the price of gold high and keep it that way.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[__aaltlg1547]

I don't understand how going back to the drachma would help them out of their current debt situation. Their debts are enumerated in euros so they have to pay them back in euros. If the switch to drachmas and then inflate the drachmas they'll just have to trade that many more drachmas to buy the euros they'll need to pay off the debts.

But I can see that it's to one's advantage to have one's wealth counted in euros, which are more stable than any re-established currency is likely to be.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[__aaltlg1547]

The difference between a Swiss bank and a bank in another European country is that Swiss banks don't share information about the account balance with the governments of their respective clients. So while having a Swiss bank account doesn't necessarily mean someone is evading taxes, the vast majority of the people evading taxes will use Swiss bank accounts.

That's true. They're also useful for stashing stolen money and the proceeds of illegal drug transactions.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Smallpond]

The ads are to hold the price up long enough for the early purchasers to convert to dollars.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Alomex]

Their debts are enumerated in euros so they have to pay them back in euros.

Nope, they can simply default on the debt and pay it back in Drachmas, like many other countries have done in the past.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Sir_Sri]

There is a legitimate point that inflation is what Greece, Spain, Italy and Portual need. Now ideally they would get there from a eurozone inflation of target of 4% and ease through this gradually (as the US generally has), but the other option will be for the Eurozone to break up, and they would likely be first to be kicked out (unless the germans leave first, which would help too).

Inflation devalues debt. Since one persons debt is anothers holding you can see the issue. But of course most people don't have a lot of money in cash assets. They have houses and stocks and so on.

Rightly, what he's complaining about is that reducing the value of a currency can make your labour worth less. This is true, and tied in concept to something in economics called nominal wage rigidity. Basically no one wants to take a face value pay cut. So to make your economy more competitive (more exports, more tourists, less imports, less of your people touring elsewhere) you want to reduce your own costs, and one way to do that is inflation.

Greece is essentially a balance of payments problem, all of the euro area is, combined with a monetary but not a fiscal union. If it wasn't for defence, medicare and medicaid and social security being *federal* in the US a lot of states would be in deep trouble right now. But because relatively rich areas keep sending money to poorer areas (especially areas that are poor because of the housing bubble and the now market bubble). What the greeks need is to decrease their costs relative to germany to attract investment, or get direct payments from germany. Either would work. The first, when in the Euro, is a mess, the Euro area could aim for a larger inflation target, essentially they'd decrease costs against everyone else at least, Greece might not be more competitive against germany but it would at least be more competitive against the US and Japan and China. The latter, which is essentially what the germans are talking about, European Federalism, seems to be a non starter politically.

So sure, he's shilling gold, and gold isn't a hedge against anything, it's just a metal that varies wildly in price, in part based on fears about inflation. Small persistent inflation (fiat currencies trend down) is a feature, not a defect of the system. But there's a kernel of truth to the fact that a lot of people in europe are looking at greece and figuring they want to having their money somewhere else, because if the Euro area starts kicking people out rather than actually solving problems a lot of people are going to get really fucked in the short term, and there they really might be better with bars of metal than cash. Incidentally, as other people have pointed out, this reality is why the barter system is picked back up, and is preventing major investment, so between that and austerity greece is only going to get worse unless there's some serious credible move towards an actual european solution, and given that, bars of any metal, even iron might be better than Greece Euros.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Anonymous Coward]

The ads are to hold the price up long enough for the early purchasers to convert to yuan.

FTFY

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Dahamma]

True - if it were up to capitalism the government would not be int the state they are in. A lot of citizens might be homeless, underfed, and sick, and Greeks rioting in the streets, but the government wouldn't be broke.

Then again, apparently Greeks will riot in the streets either way, so in the end it may not have made much of a difference.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[PolygamousRanchKid]

The folks at The Economist can explain that in more detail: http://www.economist.com/node/21555923

Although the Greek government is close to running a primary budget surplus (ie, before interest payments) it still needs further official loans to honour obligations due this year, notably redemptions of bonds held by the European Central Bank (ECB), which were excluded from the restructuring in March that slashed the face value of €200 billion of debt held by private bondholders by over half. If the lifeline from the EFSF were cut off by its creditor nations, Greece would be unable to pay those debts. And if the ECB makes it a matter of principle not to lend (or permit the Bank of Greece to lend) to banks against collateral consisting of bonds and guarantees from a government in default, then it in turn would cut Greece off. Greek banks currently rely upon some €130 billion of central-bank funding. Without the ECB money the entire banking system would collapse. If the flow of money was reduced, and the conditions it is lent on tightened, the Greek government might start to issue IOUs to its workers to make up the shortfall. If the flow stopped, leaving the banks no euros to pay out, a new currency would be the only alternative.

The government would redenominate domestic bank assets and liabilities into drachma and insist that domestic contracts, such as pay and prices, be also set in drachma. Capital controls would be necessary because the drachma would immediately fall against the euro, possibly losing 50% or more of its value in a trice.

In the short term Greece's economic agony—its economy shrank by 13% from 2007 to 2011 and is expected to contract by almost 5% this year—would intensify. A precipitous exit without preparation would leave the country without notes and coin. The surrounding chaos would paralyse economic activity, causing consumers and businesses to stop spending. Economists at UBS, a Swiss bank, have estimated that the cost of a catastrophic exit might amount to 40-50% of GDP in the first year.

That figure assumes that Greece would have to leave the EU as well as the euro, and thus lose access to the single market. On strict legal grounds that may be the case, in part because exit requires capital controls, and those controls are illegal under EU treaties. In practice European policymakers are making it clear they would do their utmost to keep Greece in the EU. Assuming such helpfulness, Mark Cliffe, an economist at ING, a Dutch bank, reckons that the effect would be less. He puts the first-year extra loss of output at 7.5%.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Sir_Sri]

The euro isn't threatened by Greece staying or going, they're too small to actually matter much. The Euro is threatened by what caused Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece and Spain to be in serious messes, which is the same problem that will eventually chip away at all of the countries that aren't germany - germany is the strongest economy in the Euro area, and the biggest, so they will be dragged down by everyone else eventually, but Euro policy rests on german exports.

The Euro was constructed with the idea that they would get a currency and settle the political and fiscal (EU budget powers basically) issues later. Because the Uk wasn't going along with one provision or another, other people wanted their own deals, no one really wanted to transfer power to Brussels, because, as you rightfully point out, they're not apparently doing a very good job.

Unfortunately, that system isn't sustainable, it happened to hit Greece, and Ireland and Spain and Portugal first, but the problem is fundamental to the EU and Euro area, and is not going to go away if greece is gone. Greece leaving the Euro area would be good for greece ultimately, though obviously the transition would be... unpleasant.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[ToadProphet]

You didn't think those advertisements telling you to buy gold were for your own good, did you? No, they are to drive the price of gold high and keep it that way.

The folks that are swayed to buy gold by a 30 second TV spot aren't even a blip in the market. There's tens of thousands of tens in government reserves around the world, and individual investors are likely many decimal places away from even being noteworthy.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[AK Marc]

Yup, now a days, you go to the Cayman Islands.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[AK Marc]

Their debts are enumerated in euros so they have to pay them back in euros.

They simply state "All debts will be paid back with Drachma. If you don't like that, let us know, and we'll cancel our debt with you." People would sign up to take the drachma, if the alternative was nothing. One or two would hold out, and Greece would default on those, and nobody would care, because the people who refused to take the offered drachma would be blamed.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[AK Marc]

Currency is involved. The USA is set to owe more than the GDP and will, in a practical sense, not be able to pay it back. The US people do not have the ability to weather a Japanese-style long-term depression to fix the debt. Instead, the US would print more money, raising the GDP (as measured in USD) without raising the debt, helping quantitatively ease the problem. When you don't control the currency you hold, you don't have that option, making currency an issue in a discussion on debt.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Cassini2]

For business, local currencies are a nightmare. The exchange rate risk becomes extreme, and eventually everyone just adds on an extra markup to make up for the risk. The result is that every consumer and business in the entire area just pays more money. This was what was happening in the Eurozone.

Imagine America, with every state having its own fiscal policy. Major transactions would be done in either New York, Texas or California dollars, and anyone that received a California dollar would immediately trade it for a New York dollar. If you went from Alibama to South Carolina, businesses wouldn't know how to exchange your currency. You would need to carry New York dollars for some exchanges, and Texas dollars for other exchanges. In this imaginary world, interstate trade would be a convoluted mess of foreign exchange transactions, and every middlemen would demand a cut.

That scenario was what was happening in Europe. As such, many countries developed a common monetary system around the Euro. The remaining two internationally easily convertable currencies for Europe are the British Pound and the Euro. For the most part, the British Pound is used for foreign transactions. EU businesses convert everything to Euros, as the Euro is the defacto liquid currency. For example: a Danish business will use Danish Krones and Euros, and a Hugarian business will use Hungarian Forints and Euros. To trade, the transaction will be priced in Euros, because both businesses use Euros.

The US has a huge commercial advantage with its federal reserve system, large size, and single common currency. Europe is trying to catch up. In the future, China's and India's currencies will be more important, as those countries grow in affluence and formalize their business practices. However, for the moment, it is difficult to explain to a US citizen what an incredible achievement the US economy is.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[AvitarX]

Are the a blip in the liquidity though?

not rhetorical, I'm actually curious, I would assume most gold reserves by government are old and fairly static.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[rtb61]

However they are Greek and in ego terms, defaulting on debt makes them a minor third rate country. So they are stuck between a rock and a 'stupid' place. Cheating on taxes at every level, no taxes to pay for reasonable social welfare and of course wholly unreasonable major government to private corporate contracts with fat profit margins, the US corporate waged war on the Euro because the Euro was becoming perceived as a threat to the US Fed and was far to stable, ups and downs are needed for real profit. US corporations were in it up to their eyeballs in the Greek fiscal collapse.

Still not a whisper from the US government about reigning in the corrupt practices of to big to fail US financial corporations and the rest of Europe just goes on pretending like this is all being manipulated by those behind the US fed because that's pushing a little to close to an act of economic warfare.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Anonymous Coward]

You are confusing capitalism with economic liberalism. Capitalism works very well with socialist policies, including the so called social democracy ideology. If you have any trouble letting that sink in, just know this: the free market and invisible hand stuff do work, but understand that the government can also be an economic actor just like any other corporation or private individual. So, just because the government shelters the homeless, feeds teh hungry and heals the sick, it doesn't mean it can't do it in a capitalist economy.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[sumdumass]

In the US, a good portions of the towns were actually built and created by businesses due to capitalism. Capitalism needs productive worker. This seems counter to your concept and ideals. Of course there are those who will attempt to abuse their positions, but that's not really a common thing.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Pinky's Brain]

It's not about what makes things better, it's what is smart for you and your family ... most people have it tough enough without losing half they have saved. Of course that doesn't include the people on the list most probably.

The Euro is inherently unstable, deposit guarantees should always be backed up by the printing press (or by the full faith and credit of the government who can turn on those presses, regardless of how independent the central bank is). That is what has mostly prevented bank runs during the fiat era, except in countries which pegged their own currency to a currency they couldn't print. Which the Eurozone has universally done, by design by the rich who got tired of having their "wealth" inflated/devalued away all the time ...

Unless we start a pan European deposit guarantee (which also guarantees that those Euros won't be converted in case of the country leaving the Eurozone) we will soon see a pan European bank run ... it's happening in the PIGS already, but it won't stop there.

In the mean time, don't be the last one in line in the run ... it's going to get ugly.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Alomex]

defaulting on debt makes them a minor third rate country.

which sadly, is what they have been all along. they do not belong in Europe until they make major strides towards development.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[jelizondo]

I undid many moderations to inform you, so appreciate it.

The Cayman Islands have signed enough tax-treaties to get into the "white list" of the OCDE. Google it or just read this.

Depending on your nationality and preferences, today you go to Singapore, Belize, Holland or Panama.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Anonymous Coward]

Their debts are enumerated in euros so they have to pay them back in euros.

They simply state "All debts will be paid back with Drachma. If you don't like that, let us know, and we'll cancel our debt with you." People would sign up to take the drachma, if the alternative was nothing. One or two would hold out, and Greece would default on those, and nobody would care, because the people who refused to take the offered drachma would be blamed.

OR some of those hedge funds would follow recent example http://www.businessinsider.com/hedge-fund-elliott-capital-management-seizes-ara-libertad-ship-owned-by-argentina-2012-10 and use courts in exceptionally corruptible countries to win judgements and seize mobile property of the Greek government to force full payment.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Anonymous Coward]

You say Germans should give them money, but I really understand Germans looking at the problem and just thinking its better to kick Greeks out of Euro. This are people who take pride in avoiding taxes but now want another country that actually pay taxes to bail them out. How fair is that? That its German taxes that will save a country that despite being in a fucked situation can not at least start pretending to be serious with tax?

People need to learn that taxes are unavoidable in life. I just fucking hate people who think taxes are evil. And its why I think Greece deceive the situation it currently is in. If anybody think taxes are bad for business, look at Sweden? Greece dont deserve to be bailed out

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah corruption prevailed - like bribing the voters with money that they didn't have, for decades.

The voters wanted goodies but didn't want to pay for them.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Sir_Sri]

but I really understand Germans looking at the problem and just thinking its better to kick Greeks out of Euro

Half of germany have buried their heads in the sand and believe it's some moral failure of the greeks in not paying their debts which has nothing to do with reality, the other half are living in a fantasy land of using this as leverage to force federalism "we'll give you money if you give power to brussels" so to speak. Germans of course, being descended from a federation of independent kingdoms doesn't have the same problem with federalism as everyone else in the euro area.

How fair is that? That its German taxes that will save a country that despite being in a fucked situation can not at least start pretending to be serious with tax?

And this puts you in the crowd of wanting to believe this is some great moral failure of the greeks. Their taxes as a % of gdp and spending as a % of GDP were not radically different from the rest of the euro area for the last decade, you're just buying rhetoric that wants people to feel good about forcing more and more austerity on them, and trying to destroy their country from the outside.

People need to learn that taxes are unavoidable in life.

People need to learn that every tax that can be avoided will be. Part of constructing a good tax code (that properly distributes tax burdens, properly defined however you want) is making sure you plan for loopholes. Europe has always had a problem with switzerland and the city states being tax havens, it's not like germans haven't been hiding their money in Switzerland and Lichtenstein for the the last 2 centuries after all, but they've learned to cope with it as best they can.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Anonymous Coward]

That's why I find it funny when those idiot libertarians keep insisting that a small government would screw them less. Sure in this case _maybe_ the hedge fund was in the right, but think about the scenario where the large multinational corporations are more powerful than all the governments in the world.

It's quality of government/regulation/voters/code/thinking that matters more than quantity.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[AK Marc]

Good to know. Probably ended about the time the US corporations were registering there en masse. I worked for a few that were registered there.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[jelizondo]

Same here, I used to work for a group of companies incorporated in Cayman, after the OCDE deal, they moved to Belize; there is an economic development zone that is basically a tax-haven.

Actually, one of the partners renounced his U.S. citizenship because of taxes and acquired the belizian (sp?) nationality...

Wherever you go, people just don't want to pay taxes...

Cheers

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Vaphell]

... and believe it's some moral failure of the greeks in not paying their debts which has nothing to do with reality

not that i am a fan of further unification; care to elaborate how it's not a failure of the greeks? Who took those massive debts and spent everything on hookers and blow? Martians? Oh, those evul bureaucrats in government who schemed with foreign bankers and cheated the honest uncorrupted greek society... but who voted for them? Santa Claus?
Did they expect to load on debt ad infinitum to fund lavish welfare programs without any consequences?

Their taxes as a % of gdp and spending as a % of GDP were not radically different from the rest of the euro area for the last decade

so i guess you missed the fact they had no problem with lying their way into the monetary union, cooking the books every single year, marking everything to fantasy and doing that shady credit default swap business with GS to move shitton of expenses off the balance sheet. Yup, everything would be rainbows and ponies if only zee germans left them alone.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[dave420]

That's the same logic that got Greece in to this mess. "Oh! I think doing what's right will hurt my family! I don't have any 'evidence' for it, but it sounds kind of like something that might happen! Fuck everyone else's family - I'm going to be greedy and ensure the system gets worse, because fuck you that's why!".

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[cyberdime]

I vaguely remember some saying that if you owe your debtors a little then you have a problem, but if you owe them a lot then your debtors have a problem. I suppose it's different if your debtors happen to be the Mafia.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[dave420]

There you go again - making stuff up. Brilliant. You seem to think the economic machinations of an entire continent can be summarised in 3 paragraphs, including the formation of the single currency and its eventual demise. Wonderful. History disagrees with what you wrote, and the future will undoubtedly do the same. I have no idea what kind of perverse parallel universe you inhabit, but the fact it keeps leaking onto slashdot is rather annoying.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[kmike]

I have a vague recollection they are now sharing some USA citizens' account information with USA.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[wideglide]

I'm swiss and I just want to inform you that almost anyone tries to hide some money or whatever from the government. For the past 60 years the folks in my surroundings (I live near the german border) have used accounts in germany to hide cash ... others used italian banks or french ones ... If you want to open an account in germany the jolly fellow at the counter will ask you if the bank should sent the yearly statements to the tax office or to you, as you will be doing that ... right ? This is just the pot calling the kettle black. Fact ist - nobody likes to pay taxes. But I prefer to pay taxes rather than handing over the cash to a bank (they are usually corporations ...) as this way the community profits from it. At the same time it is important to inform oneself about the proceedings on the political level in the community where you life and participate within the law and your preferences. This is a result of our culture, living in a direct democracy since 1848 ... where you can vote whether to build a new tunnel to cross the alps easier or the colour of the local school building ...

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Anonymous Coward]

but who voted for them?

Yes, they reelected the same people that got them into the mess, just like the German media told them to:
http://www.nachdenkseiten.de/?p=13555

business with GS

Merkel doesn't seem to have any problem with GS. In fact there are now more GS people in important positions than before the crisis (Issing, Draghi, Monti):
http://lobbypedia.de/index.php/Goldman_Sachs#Ph.C3.A4nomen_Dreht.C3.BCr_-_Das_Goldman_Sachs_Netzwerk

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[davester666]

Sure, there's only widespread corruption and you pretty much have to bribe most gov't officials [enough for each of their bosses too!] to get things done, but because it's rarely prosecuted, there's no "evidence" of it.

Hell, the people who made it this bad already have all their money out of Greece. It's primarily the poor people who will take it in the shorts from here on out.

But remember, capital is portable, so nobody should tax it because some country, somewhere, is desperate enough to not tax it.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[CodeBuster]

The various government central banks still buy and sell gold bullion from time to time. They don't like to talk about it, because they'd rather you believe in their fiat money, but they still deal regularly in gold amongst themselves. Draw your own conclusions about which money you prefer.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[CodeBuster]

According to the wiki there's 34,913.7 tons of total reported reserves worldwide. It can probably be safely assumed that any privately held quantities of gold are a rounding error by way of comparison. The United States is second on the list with 8,133.5 tons to the European Unions 15,784.1 tons (although obviously held separately by different member states). It should also be noted that even at current prices, which wouldn't survive 8,000+ tons of gold being dumped on the market, the US couldn't even begin to pay it's outstanding debts with the gold reserves.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[mvdwege]

The problem with the Euro is exactly the same as the problem that caused the debt bubble: the willingness to let rapacious greedy bastards funnel money from the middle class into their pockets.

The existence of this list is not news: the 1% got rich of easy credit from the EU to Greece, funneled billions to Swiss accounts, and now want the middle class to pay for them.

I say the day of a new Reign of Terror is drawing ever closer. Just let the new Marie-Antoinettes continue to tell us to eat brioche. We will have the last laugh.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[flyingfsck]

Local currencies are all bad? UK, Poland and Czechia to name a just a few of the EU members that have their own currency, are doing fine.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[cyber-vandal]

Large multinational corporations are the government, that's what's frightening. I don't agree with libertarians that the government should be trashed because that would hand all the power in the world to corporations but at the moment there really needs to be an enforced separation of corporations and state somehow.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[cold fjord]

So, you're suggesting that converting from dollars to yuan is worth FTFY cent on the dollar? Doesn't seem like a good deal to me.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[TheMathemagician]

"Simply" hmm. They could default on the debt but then no-one else will lend them any money. Greece has little in the way of exports or resources. It would be reduced to an agricultural/fishing economy with tourism earning a bit of foreign money.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[udachny]

Sellers are pushing prices up? SELLERS? :)

Economic ignorance 1, economic intelligence 0.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Intrepid imaginaut]

Bankruptcy won't clear Greek debt, just delay it. Default is a very different thing to repudiation.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[jabuzz]

Really, I must be missing something about the peachy economic conditions in the U.K. then.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Vaphell]

fool me once - shame on you, fool me twice - shame on me.

if the promises are too good to be true, they most certainly are, thus it's your fault when you buy into the blatant bullshit.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Vaphell]

Yes, they reelected the same people that got them into the mess, just like the German media told them to:

who would that be? The Greeks have cooked the books continuously for 15 years, no matter who was in charge at the moment. Every major party was complicit.

While GS are a scum of the earth and there is plenty you can blame them for, they did nothing wrong here. There was an opportunity to do legit business and rationally they took the deal. It's not like they manipulated Greeks into it, Greeks were more than willing themselves.
What i am saying is: don't trust a single number coming from Greek bureaucrats, because their actions show unmatched determination to hide the truth (in other words the sentence: 'their tax revenue, gdp, deficits and what not were in the ballpark of the rest of europe' can't be taken seriously).

Yes, the EU fucked up too because they didn't care about the truth either. European body doing statistics for eurozone found shady numbers many times but apperently nobody in charge was interested in calling Greeks on their bullshit.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[AmiMoJo]

Actually the Euro is a good long term bet right now. It is competitively valued compared to other currencies and is guaranteed not to fail. If it ever did go down the whole world would go with it, but that will never be allowed to happen. Instead it will recover over the next decade and savvy speculators in it for the long run will make a packet.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Ash Vince]

The euro isn't threatened by Greece staying or going, they're too small to actually matter much. The Euro is threatened by what caused Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece and Spain to be in serious messes, which is the same problem that will eventually chip away at all of the countries that aren't germany - germany is the strongest economy in the Euro area, and the biggest, so they will be dragged down by everyone else eventually, but Euro policy rests on german exports.

I mostly agree with you, apart from the last bit. Devaluing the Euro a little may actually HELP German exports by making their end products cheaper to foreign markets.

Germany is scared of printing money because they were forced to do it 70 years ago before the 2nd world war and it was a complete disaster for them where people needed a wheelbarrow full of money to buy a loaf of bread. Since this is all tied up with how Hitler came to power there are substantial difficulties preventing them from having too much rational debate on the subject. That is the main reason they refuse to even consider any financial policy that might result in the euro devaluing.

I can remember a few years ago when it was cheap for me (I am in the UK) to go to Europe on holiday. I could go to France and drink like a fish because it was 2 Euro's to the pound. Recently it went closer to 1 euro to the pound and had made my holidays to Europe a crap load more expensive.

I am quite young though and have very little money saved up so it matter very little to me if the sterling devalues. If I was much older and had a more substantial pension pot and was closer to needing it I would be just as worried about it too as if the currency devalues sooner or later that will hurt you in the pocket as we import so much food and oil from other countries.

This is probably another reason germany are scared of inflation. In Germany far fewer people buy their own home so they are more reliant on the pension to carry on paying their accommodation costs in old age.

Us in Britain mostly buy our homes so buy the time we get old we can carry on living there rent free. Although I am probably one of the last generations who will be able to do this (I am 37) as someone in their twenties now will have far greater difficulties getting the deposit together to buy anything larger than a shoebox.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[buglista]

Mod parent funny. I live in the UK.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Pinky's Brain]

Have you missed the massive outflows of Euros out of the PIGS? Have you missed the fact that major companies outright say they move their money out every week? It's not a question of evidence, it's a question of when the banks close ... the run is already under way.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[ostiguy]

Who lent the Greeks the money?

German Landesbanken, among others. The Greeks own a lot of responsibility, but their enablers have been bailed out by the EU trying to avoid debt write downs.

The EU would have been far better off if the Germans had gotten a dose of reality by experiencing more bank failures. The average German thinks the problem is the Greeks, when it is a combination of Greeks and dumb lenders reaching for yield.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[arisvega]

The difference between a Swiss bank and a bank in another European country is that Swiss banks don't share information about the account balance with the governments of their respective clients.

That depends on who is asking and why.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[quax]

Why then do I still see all these ads that try to entice people to sell their gold jewelry?

Anyhow as I bought most of my gold at around $400/oz I am not losing sleep over timing the sale of my gold and silver stash. Don't see any enticing investment alternative out there to park my money.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Sir_Sri]

Who took those massive debts and spent everything on hookers and blow?

This would be your own 'fact's'
Greece
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/government-debt-to-gdp
Germany
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/germany/government-debt-to-gdp
UK
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/government-debt-to-gdp
Italy
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/italy/government-debt-to-gdp

Notice how Greece and Italy have had pretty much the same debt to GDP since 1993, at just over 100% of gdp? And notice how neither of them started to explode until 2008 when the financial crisis hit everyone? Want me to throw in some stats on Japan who are at over 200% of gdp in debt, haven't imploded and are paying negative real interest rates to convey my point and help you get your facts sorted out?

From the perspective of the UK the germans with their 60% of GDP debt looked very irresponsible, (compared to the UK at around 30), unless you really go back in the historical record and realize the UK floated along just fine at 150% of gdp debt for a century, but today the germans are doing well, the UK badly, thank you austerity.

Greece's debt situation was not bad. If they were on the Drachma still rather than the Euro it would *still* not be bad. The problem they have is a contracting economy (thanks to austerity) is making the debt worse, while putting people out of work and starving them of not only current revenue but future revenue as well.

Did they expect to load on debt ad infinitum to fund lavish welfare programs without any consequences?

Fantasy talking point but ok...? First of all their 'welfare' programmes were about the same as a percent of GDP as the french and germans, and secondly welfare is re-distributive in nature. Again, they were doing perfectly well balancing the books for a decade with their so lavish they could afford it social programmes.

so i guess you missed the fact they had no problem with lying their way into the monetary union

The government expenditures and GDP figures were not fabricated, everything else is irrelvant to this discussion.

Yup, everything would be rainbows and ponies if only zee germans left them alone.

You mean like how things have been working in iceland, Denmnark, even the UK until Osborne and his foolish austerity? Don't get me wrong, the greeks got themselves into this mess of the Euro experiment, but the Germans are the de-facto leaders and paymasters of europe, and they ultimately hold the keys to the solution because of that, and it's german banks that lent money to the periphery in the first place, so it's german banks that will be on the hook if Greece and Spain and Italy etc. all default. If Greece hadn't joined the Euro (and by extension they were then left alone by the germans) then yes, things would be a lot better than they are. They'd be like the united states bitching about not enough job growth, and a not fast enough recovery, rather than trying to figure out how much more their economy is going to contract next year.

And don't misunderstand me, the german solution of federalism is the right one for europe ultimately. But it's political fantasy, and it doesn't seem like Merkel is able to make it into a reality through force of personality the way some other politician perhaps could. Without that, and without a significant transfer of powers to brussels this whole Euro experiment is doomed.

If you want a german comparison, look at east germany. There are *still*, 30 years on, significant transfer payments from the west to east within germany, but east germany is not rapidly contracting, and germany as a whole is not struggling to take on debt to pay for east german debt, because the rich areas are propping up the poor ones. If europe isn't willing to go that route they should stop trying to be a single country.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Sir_Sri]

You seem to think the economic machinations of an entire continent can be summarised in 3 paragraphs

No, I think /. posts have to be contained to a sensible length.

including the formation of the single currency and its eventual demise

There's no particular reason the Euro has to break up, but it's not sustainable to have a single currency without significant combined fiscal policy. Even gold had the same issue because countries debased metal currencies.

I don't dispute that there is some complicated math I'm not even sure how to do to figure out just how big the combined fiscal policy needs to be to avoid crises like this. The US federal government flutters around 20% of GDP and it seems to manage to be big enough to buffer out a lot of the local serious crisis that plague europe. The EU budget of 1% of GDP seems to be too small to have much of an effect, and country budgets (e.g. in europe), like germany, France and Sweden are all much larger than 20% of GDP and they seem to be good enough as well. So experimentally the number seems to be more than 1, but 20% seems like enough - but you'd have to actually measure just how efficient the distributive effects are past that (the UK for example which doesn't have state/provincial governments at all, or at least didn't until devolution, would seem to be the extreme other end, where you can see all of the distributive effect). But I'm not sure.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Sir_Sri]

Devaluing the Euro a little may actually HELP German exports by making their end products cheaper to foreign markets.

It would certainly, but german exports also bring the euro up as people buy euros to buy german stuff. I agree, I wasn't clear in what I was saying.

Also, with devaluation, everyone is trying to devalue against everyone else, which isn't possible, the Euro, Dollar, Pound, Yen and Yuan all want to devalue against each other, all at once, which sounds like the nonsense it is, countries with strong exports will have trouble losing value if they don't have a huge set of imports to offset against it.

Japan is picking up imports on energy, china on resources, the US on chinese made goods (and they're struggling to find exports), Europe is importing energy but not as much as it's 'exporting' tourism and cars I don't think, but I'd need to look up the data.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Hognoxious]

Yes, sellers. As distinct from selling.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Hognoxious]

You tried dog-diggety-darn hard to catch up about a century later, though. A very creditable effort, gentlemen.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Hognoxious]

They're relatively peachy, as in not as fucked up as the dagoes, wops, and micks.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Hognoxious]

Local currencies are bad how, exactly? It seems that participating in the euro has brought forced austerity measures and foreigners dictating local policy, wages, benefits, etc.

Nobody forced them to join. In fact, they lied to get in.

The problem is that when you join a club, you have to obey the rules or it won't work. They didn't, and fuck me if it didn't break.

When somebody else controls your money, it matters rather little who runs your government.

Beh. Somebody else always controls your money. If the markets think your government's economically incompetent, your money will be marked down in short order.

The Drachma (the Greek currency before the Euro was imposed on them, in your universe) was a running joke since pretty much forever.

Have you ever (apart from summer camp) been more than two county lines away from your mom's basement, fatty?

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Hognoxious]

Notice how Greece and Italy have had pretty much the same debt to GDP since 1993, at just over 100% of gdp?

Had, or reported?

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Hognoxious]

For decades the Greeks have elected politicians who've bribed them with their own money. Frankly, it's their own fault for being so fucking stupid.

Now the cretins in charge want to bribe the voters with everyone else's (mainly Germany's) money. Needless to say, a lot of hard-working northern taxpayers aren't too happy with that.

Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

while the government is in possesion of a list of people those people in turn are in possesion of the government.

Re:Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the people in this list are the government and their relatives, families and friends. We are probably the most corrupted country in this universe, and all the parallels. Someone please drop as a bomb or something

Tax records

[Anonymous Coward]

Tax records are public documents in Finland. In fact, they are published as an annual bestseller (two pieces of information are listed: the reported annual income and the total tax).

The logic is the same as with court records. The citizens need to be able to trust that the tax system treats everybody fairly.

Re:Tax records

[Anonymous Coward]

Kind of same with Sweden.

Re:Tax records

[HornWumpus]

The rich keep their money safely in banks. You want to rob criminals who don't pay taxes and hence don't keep their money in banks.

Re:Tax records

[HornWumpus]

Which will get you 10% of fair value.

Most criminals are stupid. After the time they serve they would have done better at McDonald's.

Re:Tax records

[HornWumpus]

How much do they tax vodka again?

I know what my job would be.

Re:Tax records

[Anonymous Coward]

They might, and I'm just suggesting this, actually like it in their brainwashed collectivist nightmare, because it might not be as nightmarish as you seem to think.

Re:Tax records

[Anonymous Coward]

I haven't heard people complaining about the openness of the tax system.

But let me shock you some more: most fines are not specified in absolute amounts. Instead, they are specified as percentages of your reported annual income. When the police stop you for doing 20 km/h over the speed limit, they pull out their smartphones and look up your previous year's tax filing to figure out the amount of your fine. Some fortunate individuals have had to pay well over a hudred thousand dollars for speeding.

Again, there's logic there. While in the U.S. you are sometimes ordered to do community service, in Finland you don't have to take time off your precious profession. Instead, the government rules that for a number of days, you work for the community in your present job. In other words, the government confiscates the wages you earned during those days. You get a lesson but your career is not jeopardized.

Re:Tax records

[Anonymous Coward]

The "collectivism" is deeply ingrained in the Finnish political culture. While the Americans generally detest the government, the Finns are outraged when the government isn't making them happy.

We just had municipal elections today. One of the themes of the political debate was how well the government should take care of the elderly. One of the main parties pledged 7 nurses for every 10 senior citizens in city elder homes. Nobody was talking about the taxes needed to finance this guarantee.

Re:Tax records

[udachny]

I wish them luck, but you are not following me, I am not talking about the majority of Finns, I am wondering about that minority that do not agree with the system. I don't care how much the majority is brainwashed into it, how it is 'ingrained', all that, I am genuinely interested in the other side of it, those who detest, dissent, disagree, do you understand my question? It's likely that you are not the person to answer it, I am posing that question, it's out there, somebody who understands it may leave a comment.

Re:Tax records

[AK Marc]

They also buy security systems and dogs. "rich" has little to do with income. If I had $1,000,000,000,000 and kept it in the bank in a 0% interest account, I'd show $0 income, but have lots of good stuff, and the ability to get lots more of good stuff. Bobby Brown made what, $5,000,000 a year and went bankrupt? And OJ, and Willie Nelson, and lots others with lots of income have ended up with a negative net worth. So no, making lots doesn't make one wealthy, and pissing off a person able to hire the population of a small town full time to do nothing but look for you is rarely a good idea.

Re:Tax records

[AK Marc]

It's not hard to leave the collective. Emigration isn't that hard. I did it once to get out of the USA (it'll be very post-apocalyptic when it does fail, and having guns to prepare for the looting and lawlessness is less attractive than just moving to a place that won't fall as hard or as fast). So just grow up in the system, hating it. Then, when you are old enough, leave.

Re:Tax records

[Anonymous Coward]

I am going to reply to you once, the fact is that you clearly do not understand principle of a lawful society and you do not understand that government is not supposed to discriminate against people based on personal circumstances. All laws must apply equally, the unequal application of laws based on your 'association' with any group or any other personal conditions destroys the principle of a lawful society and creates an authoritarian one. Since you don't understand a word, I'll leave it at that. Cheers.

Re:Tax records

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, it doesn't work like that over here.

The police don't get any special bonus for harassing wealthy individuals (the fines go to the state treasury and the police report to the Ministry of the Interior), and only a handful of people in the whole country are wealthy enough to actually hire servants.

In the U.S., on the other hand, you have posters threatening a "$1000 fine for littering." That fine could literally make some children starve while the rich people couldn't care less.

Re:Tax records

[udachny]

Obviously, I am just curious to hear from some Finn that is in that situation, either left or is living in Finland and dealing with it in a different manner.

Re:Tax records

[hhegner]

But Finland has a better Economy then USA, a lower debt, and a higher standard of living, a much lover crime rate and fewer in prison, and on and on. please go to CIA world fact book and check your facts. Finland is a much better country to live in on all most all areas, and despite being heavily regulated by the government, they would consider them self living in a much more liberal country then the us. Freedom is not only about money. again please go to CIA world fact book and check it out, I have never heard any ting as ignorant and stupid then the words you have put in this tread, I really hope you are trolling,

Re:Tax records

[AK Marc]

Discriminate against people by treating them equally when you'd rather they be treated inequally?

Re:Tax records

[Anonymous Coward]

To me the very concept of collectivism is as repulsive as for example the idea of murdering 100,000,000 newborn by drowning them all in a tub filled with H2SO4.

Duly noted.

Do you know what I mean?

Haven't the faintest idea.

Re:Tax records

[AK Marc]

If you count all the taxes that people have to pay (in the upper brackets of-course), including the spread between corporate and other earnings (and not counting sale an property taxes), this can get higher than 90%, if you count the death taxes as well.

Last I read, the death taxes are paid by 0.6% of estates. But, for some reason, are a "major" issue affecting most Americans. Oh, and being in the top 10% of wage earners, I pay less than 10% of my income as federal income tax. Including all taxes I pay, I pay less than 20% tax. Taxes are low. Well under your numbers. A person in the "upper brackets" of income has less than 20% of their income as earned, the rest taxed at 15% or less. So 40% of 20% and 15% of 80% = 20%, and that's not counting deductions and such. It would be very hard for someone to pay 90% taxes, and rich are paying less than me, a humble wage earner.

Re:Tax records

[Alter_3d]

Agreed, however most criminals aren`t going for a lot. If they can take a couple of LED TVs, basic jewelry and assorted crap, its worth for them.

Re:Tax records

[udachny]

I am talking about the Rule of Law, where government in all its actions is supposed to be bound by rules that are fixed and announced beforehand, so that based on this knowledge individuals can rely to plan their personal affairs. Rule of Law requires that the discretion left to the executive organs is reduced to a minimum. This is at odds (is incompatible) with any activity of government that is deliberately aimed at material or substantive equality of different people. Any policy aiming at substantive ideal of distributive justice leads to destruction of Rule of Law, since to produce the same results for different people, they must be treated differently. Giving people similar objective opportunities is not giving them the same subjective chance. Rule of Law produces economic inequality, no question about it, but this inequality is not aimed at any specific people in any particular way.

People who expect government to provide 'social justice' will never be satisfied with only formal justice, because they object that law has no views on how well off any particular individual 'ought to be', these people expect 'socialization of law' and they will attack independent judges and will support politicians that undermine the Rule of Law to provide basically what amounts to equal outcomes.

So for people to be treated equally they have to be treated equally under law regardless of their personal circumstances, of their wealth for example. This works both ways, the justice system is supposed to be blind to your wealth or lack of wealth if you are judged for some crime, but this also means that the very concept of 'progressive tax' (for example) is unlawful (and I hope I said enough for everybody who is reading to understand why that is, because it's late here, I have to split).

Re:Tax records

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it's not obvious. Because why would you be posting a question like that on an English-language, US-based tech site instead of a political forum that has least something to do with Finland. Or just find a penpal or something.

Re:Tax records

[sumdumass]

10% of a $1000 item is $100. Haul ten of those items out in a day and that's a pretty good salary. And of they get caught, well, they may be locked up, but look on the bright side, they get to meet and date people with names like Bubba and have 3 hot meals a day and a warm dry cot to lay their heads on at night.

Re:Tax records

[hhegner]

I understand your point as a classic textbook libertarian from the 1800 century or some were back then, how ever i don't agree with you at all, first you seem to come to the conclusion that if there is any form of governance then you might as well give up all of your rights??, i think this logic is very black and white, very very simplistic, The world is a bit more complex. I do personal believe we need some form of collective regulation in order to protect the individual, such as regulations on food production and use of chemicals and protection against abuse of power by individuals ore organisations, and on many more areas. I believe, that in order to pursue your own happiness, you need a stable and secure society, Humans are not always rational ore good we need to have a common rule book if we wish to live side by side in peace, hens legislation can be a good thing, even much legislation. The other thing about h2so4 i relay don't understand, if it is something religious about abortion, i can only say i am happy to live in a plays were i am free to be an atheist

Re:Tax records

[Areyoukiddingme]

That was utter bullshit, so why would you expect him to understand it? That law does not discriminate. Everyone convicted of the same crime pays the same percentage. Now if, instead, certain people had a special tag next to their name, like, say Duke, or Count, or Earl, and that meant they paid a smaller percentage fine than anyone who didn't have that special tag, then THAT would be discrimination.

You fail at logic so hard you should stop typing.

Re:Tax records

[AK Marc]

I am talking about the Rule of Law, where government in all its actions is supposed to be bound by rules that are fixed and announced beforehand, so that based on this knowledge individuals can rely to plan their personal affairs

And if the "rule of law" fixes the fine to 2% of annual income (as measured by an average of the highest 2 of the last 3 year's tax returns), what is wrong with that fixed and announced rule?

Re:Tax records

[nedlohs]

And you don't need tax lists to see who has bought nice stuff, so that list isn't helping.

Re:Tax records

[nedlohs]

It's not a prison, they can migrate leave the country and live elsewhere.

Re:Tax records

[foofish]

It sounds to me like the laws do apply pretty equally in Scandinavia. You can ask any number of minorities how equally the law applies in the US and will undoubtedly get a different picture.

Re:Tax records

[foofish]

To me the very concept of collectivism is as repulsive as for example the idea of murdering 100,000,000 newborn by drowning them all in a tub filled with H2SO4. Do you know what I mean? And that is much fewer deaths and suffering than collectivism actually caused.

It's like one of Ayn Rand's crazy fictional characters came to life!

Re:Tax records

[noobermin]

Oh god it's roman_mir >.>

Re:Tax records

[TranquilVoid]

Any society of greater than about 10 people is going to have a proportion who do not agree with the general consensus. Therefore you get some non-collectivist Scandanavians and you get some collectivist Americans who haven't fallen for the free-market-is-perfect brainwashing (note majority culture and government are intertwined, it would be a mistake to attribute this to the government alone).

Unfortunately for those minorities, rules tend to need to be universal, so the answer to your question is that they probably hate it and, if they have the motivation and means, emigrate to somewhere more aligned with their attitudes.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest very few Scandanavians are trying to get out for financial and security reasons. On the other side it seems rare for U.S. citizens to permanently move also.

Re:Tax records

[udachny]

Everything is wrong with that 'rule'. That is not a rule, it's an arbitrary decision left to an executive in power. It necessarily requires destruction of privacy and its goal is 'equitable society' or 'social justice', which means the government takes it upon itself to ensure similar outcomes for different people, which requires different treatment or discrimination.

Let me explain something to you, that you obviously do not understand (and by the looks of it few people here do), if you earn 10,000 dollar a year and the law sets your fine as 1% of it, you'll pay 100 dollars.

However with that type of income, very few of it goes towards savings and investment in absolute numbers, so most of that income is consumed, thus we are looking at mostly a consumer income.

If you earn 10,000,000 dollars, 1% is100,000. If the person in question lives on 200,000 per year, you have just taken 50% of his living allowance.

You don't get it, do you? You think people who make 10,000,000 spend it? That money is invested except for a couple percent, none of that money is spent, it's saved. This means that the government is forcing the person paying the fine to tap into the SAVINGS, not into his spending, and in case of top earners this means tapping into investment.

This is what is wrong with it, again, you can read my comment in this thread on income taxes in general (and obviously 'progressive' income taxes are a special case of general income taxes and 'progressive' income taxes require an even more ridiculous type of 'law' to be applied, a person with higher income is paying more as a percentage of his income, this ends up hurting the economy much more than it hurts that person specifically, he'll just invest less, he won't spend less on himself, and it's immoral, because it's gov't working towards 'equal outcomes' rather than 'equal justice' or Rule of Law.)

People who earn more money than they spend per year drive the economy, so that's the economic reason not to engage in redistribution of wealth, the people who will suffer most from this type of redistribution are the poor, who will see less opportunities, because there is less investment (government spending is not investment, it never has to produce a sustainable profitable result, thus whatever gov't does ends once the subsidy ends, and the subsidy depends on taxing the productive people, who also can 'end' given enough government interference, that's what is observed in USA and most of Europe).

Obviously redistributive type of government is tyrannical, it assumes it can take anything from anybody and 'give' anything to anybody, obviously what it really does, it steals from those who produce and subsidizes those who do not, but those who are subsidized tend to be those, most connected to power. While the SS and Medicare checks keep the voters bought and happy (until the economy crashes), the real purpose of the stolen money is to pad the bank accounts of the politicians and their friends, whoever that is, whatever company that is.

It's all rotten in every way, from moral and practical point of view.

Re:Tax records

[udachny]

Obviously it's too complex for you, you can

try and

read to figure it out, but I doubt it's likely that you will.

Re:Tax records

[flyingfsck]

In the USA, the government can also 'garnish your wages' to force you to repay a fine/tax.

Re:Tax records

[cyber-vandal]

Don't waste your time with this guy it's exhausting and pointless. Take it from one who's tried. You're lucky he didn't write a 4000 word essay at you.

Re:Tax records

[cyber-vandal]

Allowing them to die due to lack of adequate medical care however is a tenet of your philosophy.

Re:Tax records

[TFAFalcon]

So a law can't say that a person has to pay x% of their income if they break a certain law? If that kind of a law is wrong, then what about taxes? Should people all be required to pay X per year, without any regard of what they earned?

Re:Tax records

[chaos_technique]

Plus, if things have not changed since the 90s, Finns have something of a problem with hiring personal servants. I mean, in 1990 people in Helsinki were hiding the fact they hired a maid. That said, two of the most luminous and happy years of my life were lived in that collectivist hell :-).

Re:Tax records

[AK Marc]

Everything is wrong with that 'rule'. That is not a rule, it's an arbitrary decision left to an executive in power.

Then all rules are similarly arbitrary. Why $50, not $500? Arbitrary. You just object to punishing rich people as much as poor. After all, if they are supposed to reduce infringements, they must hurt. The value of $500 isn't the same to someone living on $5000 a year as $5,000,000 a year.

Re:Tax records

[AK Marc]

I read it. He's claiming that it's more fair to fine someone for speeding for 100% of their daily wage and someone else for 0.01% of their daily wage because the richer person deserves preferential treatment. He justifies that preference with irrelevant discussion on economics of trickle-down (leaving aside that voodoo economics has been proven false by increasing wealth and income in the top 1% and decreasing standard of living for the bottom 47%.). As I don't subscribe to voodoo economics, I ignored it. That doesn't mean I didn't read it. Just because it's stated doesn't make it true.

yeah, I am pretty just, unlike those, who think they must apply different rules to different people to equalize outcomes and thus create an unjust system by definition.

The rule is the same and applied to everyone equally. You must be for gay marriage then, as banning it affects people unequally, even if applied equally.

Re:Tax records

[AK Marc]

Who is 'he'? I am the same person who left the comment.

Like I'm supposed to know that some random AC is "udachny" or a previous AC replying in the same thread. There's a reason why logins are available.

I understand that you are set in your ideology,

Then tell me my ideology. If you are so certain I'm set in it, you should at least have an idea what you are asserting I'm set in. I could do with a good laugh.

There is only 'trickle down' economics,

The kind that Reagan defined was that tax cuts on the rich, without corresponding cuts on the poor, would benefit he poor through trickle down. That was proven to be false (at least in practice).

That's the only version of economics, 'voodoo' economics is what you believe economics to be - something that can be centrally planned and executed 'for the greater good', now that's voodoo.

I was referring to the voodoo economics that Bush attacked in 1980, then later embraced and implemented, with great support.

Re:Tax records

[shutdown -p now]

Indeed, which is precisely why Finland is renowned in Europe and elsewhere for its extremely high crime rates, especially robberies. ~

Re:Tax records

[robsku]

Here's a tip: look for expensive houses with expensive cars in front on expensive neighborhood - you are more likely to avoid accidentally picking a rich ascetic with nothing worth of robbing this way ;)

PS. Not talking out of experience.

Re:Tax records

[robsku]

Yeah, no :)

Re:Tax records

[robsku]

rotflmao. nuff said :D

Re:Tax records

[robsku]

I'd expect it to be pretty small minority... sure, there are no places, governments, systems, whatever without someone getting upset about it, but really it's really rare when I've heard anyone criticizing really strongly this particular aspect of our society - sure, there are some who do criticize somewhat on it, but it's really mostly a minor issue, not a deal breaker.
Maybe that minority has been all leaving 1st moment they can? I mean, I would leave if I was "utterly disgusted with my country".

But on another topic, how brainwashed must a person be to actually think that because a country is different from his/hers country/ideal and people there mostly seem to like it then obvious explanation has to be those people being brainwashed to be happy about it?

Re:Tax records

[robsku]

As am I. Not to say they don't exist, just that I haven't really ever had a good talk with someone who actually hates Finland so bad it makes moving away seem tempting idea... Not posting with sarcasm tags now either, I would honestly be interested to hear from such fellow Finn - thanks to you I might add.

Re:Tax records

[robsku]

By comparison, having a static fine means that while everyone pays the same amount in cash, that amount becomes a smaller percentage of the total taxeable income of a rich individual compared to a poor individual. In short; The poor pay more in such a system.

It also means that for rich enough people the laws will become meaningless, the punishments virtually non-existent... We all know the stereotype of a rich brat ignoring laws and just throwing what equals to pennies for him to buy the right to break the law.

I think this, if anything, is the most important reason for non-static fines. They are meant to be punishment, not something you get to buy without considering the price if you are rich enough, and the punishment should not be lesser because one is rich. It's not a sale, it's a punishment.

Re:Tax records

[robsku]

I read it. He's claiming that it's more fair to fine someone for speeding for 100% of their daily wage and someone else for 0.01% of their daily wage because the richer person deserves preferential treatment. He justifies that preference with irrelevant discussion on economics of trickle-down (leaving aside that voodoo economics has been proven false by increasing wealth and income in the top 1% and decreasing standard of living for the bottom 47%.). As I don't subscribe to voodoo economics, I ignored it. That doesn't mean I didn't read it. Just because it's stated doesn't make it true.

This I liked enough that I would mod you up if I could...

yeah, I am pretty just, unlike those, who think they must apply different rules to different people to equalize outcomes and thus create an unjust system by definition.

The rule is the same and applied to everyone equally. You must be for gay marriage then, as banning it affects people unequally, even if applied equally.

But you lost me here? I'm for gay marriage myself but I have no idea what that has got to do with this conversation? And are you saying this because you think gay marriage is bad or because you think that's what he thinks?

Re:Tax records

[robsku]

Hah, you know, I was already replying not for him but for other readers really :)

Re:Tax records

[robsku]

I don't know how it works over there, but in the United States, this would result in rich people being unable to drive a car without half a dozen cops following them and watching their every move, while poor people driving at 90 through a school zone would be utterly ignored.

Yes, you're legal system seems to be broken here - one major problem is that police benefits from traffic violation tickets. In Finland there is no alternate motives for police to ticket you, they don't benefit from giving huge number and/or large fines (it's obvious that the alternate leads to broken system with police abusing the system).

Also, if I were a sufficiently rich person, I could hire a poor person to drive me to work. I could cut my commute time in half!

Yes.

Re:Tax records

[robsku]

Bad troll - a troll should make just enough sense to be annoying, but this makes no sense at all.

Re:Tax records

[AK Marc]

But you lost me here? I'm for gay marriage myself but I have no idea what that has got to do with this conversation? And are you saying this because you think gay marriage is bad or because you think that's what he thinks?K/quote>I was really just trying to rile him up. If the point of the law is to be "fair" without regard to effect to the person affected, then gay marriage should be illegal. If the law/punishment should be "fair" and "proportional" then gay marriage should be legal.

I think gay marriage is good, and I think he thinks it is bad because he sounds "conservative", but mainly I was trying to push him to consider "fair" not just from a numerical effect, but from an affect effect.

Re:Tax records

[Hognoxious]

He's a sockpuppet for roman_mir, and I suspect he has several others. He can't post under his old ID because his karma is in the toilet.

This, of course, is due to brainwashed neoliberals conspiring against him.

Re:Tax records

[Hognoxious]

Too many trolls with moderation points nowadays, so I'll reply as an AC this time.

Epic fail.

Re:Tax records

[robsku]

Ok, hear you now :)

the real scandal

[etash]

That's not the real scandal, or should I say is part of it. The real scandal is that the list has been in the government's hands for a couple of years and it has done nothing about it ( it's the same list leaked by a swiss man, and bought and used by the german, US and other governments to collect taxes ). Ex-ministers are saying that a) either they couldn't use the list because the data was not acquired legally or b) we gave the list to the greek IRS but they didn't do anything. There is even an ex-minister ( current leader of pasok ) who admitted he took the usb stick with the list to his home after he resigned from his position.

Re:the real scandal

[man_of_mr_e]

I'm not sure why it's news that someone was arrested for violating the law. Just because they're a journalist doesn't mean they can violate privacy laws on a whim.

I'm sure not everyone on the list is guilty of evading taxes, yet the journalist painted everyone with the same brush.

Re:the real scandal

[Raenex]

That's not the real scandal, or should I say is part of it. The real scandal is that the list has been in the government's hands for a couple of years and it has done nothing about it

In other words, the second and third sentences in the summary:

"While more and more austerity measures are being taken against the people of Greece, there is still no investigation of tax evasion for the people on this list by the government. The list has been in the possession of the Greek government since 2010."

Re:the real scandal

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not the real scandal, or should I say is part of it. The real scandal is that the list has been in the government's hands for a couple of years and it has done nothing about it ( it's the same list leaked by a swiss man, and bought and used by the german, US and other governments to collect taxes ). Ex-ministers are saying that a) either they couldn't use the list because the data was not acquired legally or b) we gave the list to the greek IRS but they didn't do anything. There is even an ex-minister ( current leader of pasok ) who admitted he took the usb stick with the list to his home after he resigned from his position.

An investigation into 2,000 people, followed by lengthy court cases against (presumably) people who can afford a strong legal defence, followed possibly by jail terms... that is going to cost a ton of money.

Greece has much bigger problems on it's hands than tax evasion. They are over 500 billion dollars in debt, and catching a handful of people evading tax is not going to solve that. All it will do is waste even more of their precious tax revenue (which, FWIW, mostly comes from sources other than personal income tax).

Re:the real scandal

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure why it's news that someone was arrested for violating the law.

You might want to rethink that. If half the population doesn't agree with a law then the law is a sham. If he was arrested only to protect certain people it is a sham. Even if not half, I would wager around 1/3 of people do not think this journalist should've been arrested. We only get one shot at this life, and I personally don't give a shit about laws that only serve to protect the powerful. And for some hyperbole, see Rosa Parks.

Re:the real scandal

[Anonymous Coward]

Greece is one big scam.

Objectively, the best thing for Greece would be a bankruptcy. Then, they would perform an internal devaluation by slashing everybody's pay by a significant percentage. The country would become competitive, save the jobs, attract investment and tourists since they would be solvent again. Most prices would come down accordingly as well. Also, the reckless German lenders would get a lesson: you can't expect the government to bail you out of your risky investments.

But the Greek government has a better deal in mind. They are holding the German banks by the balls by threatening to go bankrupt. The banks then pressure the German government to buy the debts and "lend" billions of euros to Greece to make loan payments. A good part of those billions, just like the billions before, land in the ruling families' bank accounts in Switzerland.

In the meanwhile the Greek government imposes cruel and counterproductive austerity measures on their populace, who will blame the Germans for their misery. The rich Greeks laugh all the way to the Swiss bank.

Re:the real scandal

[udachny]

I don't know if anybody on /. understands the principle of austerity, but it seems that most of the planet doesn't understand it.

Austerity is reduction of spending by government, reduction of size of government. The checks that governments sends are supposed to be reduced or completely cut, stopped. The government cannot afford payments, the people cannot afford the government.

That's what austerity is or should be.

Instead the politicians have convinced huge number of people that austerity is supposed to be the same government (or even bigger), and the people are supposed to be taxed to pay for it.

What is actually happening is not austerity, it's theft. The banks that made all sorts of loans to governments of Greece want their money back and the political elite of nations is cooperating in this endeavour, raising taxes and selling off various properties to pay the loans. This is done to maintain the fiction that government debt is 'risk free'. It was always fiction, government debt is at the minimum as risky as the rest of the economy, but it's actually worse, because governments never decrease their spending, even when they cannot actually be afforded by their people.

The people who have holdings in foreign companies and banks outside of their countries are obviously those with the most foresight and those who understand that you do not hold all of your eggs in one basket.

Of-course the fact that government is not pursuing people on that list can mean many different things, for example it can mean that there are many politically connected people on that list.

Also there is another angle to this: the money is outside of the country, who says that Greek government has any claim to it at all? This journalist thinks that these people aren't paying taxes in Greece by hiding money elsewhere, but Greece is not USA or Canada, who want to tax your foreign earnings. Most countries of the world don't engage in such practices, only the 'most free' do.

Of-course the reality is that people who are truly productive and make plenty of money are always a target for the proletariat and the class war, they should be ready to protect themselves under these circumstances (many should have left Greece some time ago and many did).

Re:the real scandal

[memnock]

I think by mentioning that the list was already in the Greek govt's hands for a couple of years means this guy was acting as a kind of whistleblower, or possibly working with a whistleblower. IF that was the point, then acting out of a moral obligation to reveal evaders when the govt can't support itself makes this arrest appear immoral, perhaps somewhat despicable.

Just conjecture on my part. Honestly, I don't know why this particular "journalist arrested" story made it to /. Maybe though it's the fault of the summary to given enough detail that would really elicit attention.

Re:the real scandal

[Anonymous Coward]

Working and generating wealth is different from owning property and making money from it. And you can't do the latter without someone doing the former. If a lot of the (ha!) "truly productive" check-out and leave Greece it would probably be a net gain for Greece.

Re:the real scandal

[udachny]

If a lot of the (ha!) "truly productive" check-out and leave Greece it would probably be a net gain for Greece.

- yeah, because the world is full of examples where countries with only poor people became great economic engines, pulling everybody out of dirt (and doing it without actually turning their entire populations into slave labor and the nation into a meat grinder).

Working and generating wealth is different from owning property and making money from it.

- it's called savings and investments. You can save your money, invest it and it works. Yes, the money works and you allowed it to work by collecting it and not spending it, that's why economies need savers - to allow investments to occur and allow businesses to have access to investors.

Re:the real scandal

[multiben]

If half the population doesn't agree with a law then the law is a sham.

That is such a dumb statement. I would wager (based on no more evidence than your own wager was based) that half the population wouldn't pay taxes if it was left up to them. Does that mean the entire tax system is a sham?

Re:the real scandal

[sjames]

Apparently not. That's why banks are no longer interested in courting the middle class to put money in savings. They're much more interested in handing out loans from fiat money and collecting rapacious interest rates on it.

Collecting various forms of rent is not an economically productive activity.

Re:the real scandal

[udachny]

You are mistaken in a major way, the banks are not loaning out savings, there are no savings. The banks are busy getting money from the Fed and making loans to the Treasury. Businesses do not have access to any real savings and thus real interest rates for businesses are enormous, that's why they can't get business loans.

The banks (which are part of government actually) are not part of a productive economy, they are now an instrument of economic destruction, gambling with fake money, proxies for propping up failed governments. This problem is near 100 years old now, but it had a number of boosts along the way, the FDIC and the default on the dollar (1971 gold shock) and Alan Greenspan's put and then Bernanke's 0% interest rates and then the bail outs, TARP all that stuff.

So you can talk about banks, but I am not talking about banks, I am talking about people who save their earnings and either invest them or keep them protected from inflation and from ever growing, power hungry political elites.

Re:the real scandal

[AK Marc]

yeah, because the world is full of examples where countries with only poor people became great economic engines, pulling everybody out of dirt (and doing it without actually turning their entire populations into slave labor and the nation into a meat grinder).

But that's not evidence against it being possible, or even likely. The productive are who make the poor. If they were gone, there would be less poor people.

Re:the real scandal

[AK Marc]

The theft was the spending. If fewer complaints were made about taxes and more about spending, we'd be better off.

Re:the real scandal

[man_of_mr_e]

There are many laws that are unpopular. That doesn't make them shams. Many of them are for the good of the population at large who would, left to their own devices, create havoc for everyone else.

Most free societies respect the Rule of Law, which says that the law should apply equally to everyone. If you let journalists break the law just because you are envious of rich people hiding their money, then that completely throws the rule of law out the window.

Privacy laws exist for a reason.

Re:the real scandal

[sjames]

You seem to have read my post exactly backwards.

You are talking about people who accumulated enough (perhaps from mom and dad) to effectively become 'bank lite' and live by renting out their bux.

It''s still rent seeking.

Re:the real scandal

[UnknownSoldier]

Same Bullshit in the US too ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Birkenfeld

In October 2001, Birkenfeld began working at UBS in Geneva, Switzerland, handling private banking, primarily for clients located in the United States. In 2005, he learned that UBS's secret dealings with American customers violated an agreement the bank had reached with the IRS.

He resigned from UBS in October 2005 and provided written whistleblower complaints to Peter Kurer, Head Counsel for UBS, and other UBS senior executives regarding the illegal practices of U.S. cross-border business.

He is the first person to expose what has become a multi-billion dollar international tax fraud scandal over Swiss private banking.[2] Despite his unprecedented, extensive and voluntary cooperation, and registering as an IRS whistleblower, Birkenfeld is the only U.S. citizen to be sentenced to jail as a result of the scandal.

Re:the real scandal

[UnknownSoldier]

> Does that mean the entire tax system is a sham?

Government enforced stealing doesn't make it right.

Stealing from those that have more and giving to others who have less isn't fair.
i.e.
https://www.google.com/search?q=youtube+gpa+redistribution

Re:the real scandal

[UnknownSoldier]

How the fuck is 73,608 pages NOT a sham??

http://politicalcalculations.blogspot.com/2012/04/2012-how-many-pages-are-there-in-us-tax.html

--
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws." ( "Corruptisima republica plurimae leges." ) Tacitus, Anals III 27

Re:the real scandal

[graffic]

The Greek IRS has published other "name lists" and nobody has detained anyone in the government. It's a game used by the IRS to "make you pay", because "perhaps" your name wasn't in the names published but will be in the next batch.

Nothing happened, no detentions.

At the same time, there was a person guilty of tax evasion. He had to go to jail, but he was living in a high class hotel in Athens during "5 years" because the police couldn't locate him. Till a newspaper published the case. So 5 years to catch a convict living in a hotel in the center of Athens, 11 hours to detain someone for something legal. Or at least in the border of legal/illegal. (Think a bit about it)

And do not forget some politicians bragged of having that list and "not looking at the contents". No detentions there too.

Re:the real scandal

[man_of_mr_e]

I'm sorry, your rambling, incoherent stream of consciousness thought dump makes no sense to me.

The government can do things normal people can't. So whatever the Greek IRS does has no bearing on whether or not a private individual is guilty of privacy violations for publishing an un-vetted list of people and claiming they're all tax cheats.

Politicians saying they have a list isn't illegal either. Why would they be detained for something that isn't illegal? I really don't understand what point you're trying to make.

The journalist broke the law. Regardless of what anyone else may or may not have done wrong, that doesn't excuse the journalist from his crime.

Re:the real scandal

[cyber-vandal]

There are no savings? Apart from the money that is in thousands of savings accounts. I personally have savings. What are you on about?

Re:the real scandal

[udachny]

There are no savings. Your meager savings are irrelevant, especially given the fact that whatever you manage to save, your government manages to squander.

In USA just the official public debt is 53K per person. The real public debt is over a million USD per person. Given the 16 Trillion public debt, 222Trillion unfunded liabilities, all of the FDIC 'insurance', all of the mortgages (with FHA or F&F 'insurance') and now the Fed buying up mortgages, all of the implicit guarantees to bail out the banks again once they fail, all of the student debt, etc.

There are no savings, that's why businesses do not have access to business loans. Sure, they could get business loans but the interest rate would not allow any business to take up a loan like that.

Re:the real scandal

[man_of_mr_e]

The white pages do not suggest that the people on it are tax cheats, nor does it list the value of their bank accounts. That's private information. That's why this is a privacy issue.

I acknowledge I have not read the article, but they can couch it in all the words they want, the implication is that people on the list are tax cheats.

Again, you are going away from the point that the journalist illegally published private information.. Whether or not anyone on the list has been arrested may be a very important issue to you, but it has nothing to do with whether or not the journalist is guilty of the crime he is accused of. Those are two different issues (though they are of course related)

I'm also flabbergasted that the "proof" that people are tax cheats is that they closed their bank accounts after the bank told them their privacy was breached. I don't know about you, but I would close any bank account with a bank that told me that, and i'm doing nothing illegal.

Re:the real scandal

[AK Marc]

You are confused on the definition of "productive." In capitalism, "productive" means "owns lots of stuff." If the rich people leave, then the rest of the people will be richer. They can then use that wealth to improve themselves and the country, when they couldn't when the rich were hoarding money and keeping everyone else down so that their wealth wasn't contested.

Re:The same thing happened in the US

[man_of_mr_e]

So you expect us to take your word for it?

How ironic that you argue against opacity with an opaque claim you can't support.

He deserves it

[Anonymous Coward]

This guy deserves every bit of it.

You don't just go around accusing people of criminal activity. Most likely there are people on that list who are acting within the law, and now everyone is going to treat them like criminals.

PA is part of Greece?

[acidfast7]

FYI, different countries have different laws.

Ah, dodgy Switzerland

[skegg]

Hey many billions -- nay, TRILLIONS -- of dollars have wealthy individuals from around the globe hidden in Swiss bank accounts?

Under any other circumstances, nations would ban trade with Switzerland unless it shared bank account data with their local tax office. Alas, it's the same fat cats that run our countries who shield their wealth in Switzerland.

It was eye opening when that disgruntled IT fellow burned a copy of bank account data onto a couple of DVD's and then embarked on a global tour of selling to each country a list of their citizens who had money stashed in Switzerland.

Is he still alive?

Re:Ah, dodgy Switzerland

[PolygamousRanchKid]

In Switzerland, banks accounts hold the money of immoral criminals.

In the US, immoral criminals run the banks.

Re:Ah, dodgy Switzerland

[AlphaWolf_HK]

So in your ideal world, we would force Switzerland to abandon its privacy laws under penalty of economic ruin?

Tell me, are you simultaneously of the opinion that banning financial trades from the likes of wikileaks is bad? Just curious.

Re:Ah, dodgy Switzerland

[Anonymous Coward]

In the US, the customers of Swiss banks run for public office, proclaiming the need to restore America's military while reducing the Federal budget deficit.

Re:Ah, dodgy Switzerland

[skegg]

Slow down there, cowboy. You make it sound like I want to send in the cavalry.

I wouldn't force Switzerland to abandon its "privacy" laws.
(I think the inverted commas are warranted, don't you? I mean, what are they really protecting?)

I would simply like to see local jurisdictions refuse to trade with Switzerland unless they provided reciprocal financial information on their citizens. (Many countries have already requested such information -- even writing very stern letters! -- and have received nothing in response.) Switzerland can decide whether or not to comply. Virtually all countries share this information*, and it serves a very important purpose. If I get sued here in Australia, a court can easily determine my financial value (house, bank accounts, shares, vehicles, etc). However if I've stashed millions in Switzerland, my victims are SOL. (And I retain my wealth.)

As for Wikileaks ... I'm not sure how you can throw that at me when I'm clearly in favour of more transparency from our governments, not less.

* Just because many countries do something doesn't make it right. But in this situation -- financial records -- I believe it is.

Re:Ah, dodgy Switzerland

[AlphaWolf_HK]

Slow down there, cowboy. You make it sound like I want to send in the cavalry.

I wouldn't force Switzerland to abandon its "privacy" laws.
(I think the inverted commas are warranted, don't you? I mean, what are they really protecting?)

Why not have laws that prevent random searches of your house? What are you really protecting?

I would simply like to see local jurisdictions refuse to trade with Switzerland unless they provided reciprocal financial information on their citizens.

That is an economic sanction.

(Many countries have already requested such information -- even writing very stern letters! -- and have received nothing in response.) Switzerland can decide whether or not to comply. Virtually all countries share this information*, and it serves a very important purpose. If I get sued here in Australia, a court can easily determine my financial value (house, bank accounts, shares, vehicles, etc). However if I've stashed millions in Switzerland, my victims are SOL. (And I retain my wealth.)

As for Wikileaks ... I'm not sure how you can throw that at me when I'm clearly in favour of more transparency from our governments, not less.

* Just because many countries do something doesn't make it right. But in this situation -- financial records -- I believe it is.

What you're effectively saying is that you're guilty until proven otherwise. In other words, if you don't want prying eyes to know how much money you have, you clearly must be hiding something. Much like if you don't want prying eyes coming into your house without your permission, clearly you must be hiding something.

WTF?

[Anonymous Coward]

Am I missing something here? I have a savings account with HSBC, and I'm not evading shit.

That said, having spent time in Greece, it's a giggle that having an account at HSBC would be prima facia evidence of tax evasion. From what I gathered, tax evasion was a national pastime. Ever notice all the occupied buildings in Greece with unfinished top stories with rebar sticking up? That's apparently because they don't start charging property tax until the building is "finished"...

Economic sense.

[Onuma]

Taxing your way out of an economic crisis is only feasible in the [very] short term.

Poor economic choices on the part of the Greek gov't are to blame here...but they're too busy screwing over their people to accept responsibility and make progress toward actual corrections.

Re:Economic sense.

[brit74]

> Taxing your way out of an economic crisis is only feasible in the [very] short term.

First, I don't know why this is relevant to the tax evasion issue. Although, I know a lot of right-wingers can get pretty anti-tax.

Second, would you agree that governments need to have *some* form of taxation? Based on your statement, I assume the only ideologically-consistent position you can take is a total anti-tax position.

Re:Economic sense.

[__aaltlg1547]

You need to distinguish between an economic crisis and a government budget crisis. Taxing can get you out of a government budget crisis. Lowering taxes when you don't have enough taxes to cover your current spending will just as surely produce one.

Re:Economic sense.

[Onuma]

My statement was in relevance to the last sentence of the article summary. The damage has already been done by the Greek government. Even if they did now seek to prosecute the tax evaders, they would still be in a financial mess; the white-collar criminals would merely be the next scapegoat in the line. In a nutshell, I'm pointing the finger at the Greek gov't for mismanaging the money that they did take in, rather than being responsible and accountable with the funds of their people.

Revenue of some form or another is a must for any government. We can't expect a large country to have all volunteers, can we? However, effectively taking the majority of any population's money is ludicrous and irresponsible -- what function(s) could rationally use that much money?
Many of the people with the most money in America are not investing and creating jobs like they would be during better times. Corporate taxes are mind-bogglingly expensive. Government regulation stepped in to try to correct a problem -- and they did to some extent -- but came out with bigger ones. When 50-60% of your startup funds for a new company go straight into overhead, fees and taxes, you're not going to be as likely to start a new venture. You can just sit on that money, put it into less risky investments, etc. Or you take that money overseas and build a business elsewhere. Many people who work regular jobs for a living and are more or less "check to check" don't understand how overregulation and overtaxation can stifle growth.

Re:Economic sense.

[Onuma]

"Government budget crisis"? When governments excessively spend money they don't have, it is inevitably creating an "economic crisis" down the line. Proper budgeting means you don't spend more money than the sum of your tax revenue. If you DO happen to need that extra coverage, you effectively "IOU" the people and spend less during the next fiscal period to compensate. The numbers may be massive, the figures vast and more complex than your average checkbook, but math is still math.

Re:Economic sense.

[__aaltlg1547]

"Government budget crisis"? When governments excessively spend money they don't have, it is inevitably creating an "economic crisis" down the line.

It depends on a number of variables. In the USA, some of the states are unable to borrow money, so they can have a budget crisis any time tax revenue drops. They can solve that kind of problem by increasing taxes.

On the federal level, whether a budget problem creates an economic crisis depends on a lot of variables: how much debt the government already has, the rate at which it is financed, the term over which it is financed and the size of the debt in relation to GDP. If the debt is financed over a period of 10 years, you don't have to deal with it all in one year, so it can be less than a crisis even if the debt is a large fraction of GDP. If it's financed over 30 years, it can be a serious consideration but not necessarily a crisis even if it exceeds GDP

How you deal with a problem of this sort depends on a lot of things, but possible solutions include spending cuts, tax increases and economic expansion. It's unwise to count on economic expansion to bail you out though, particularly if the amount of expansion that would be required to bail you out exceeds historical trends.

Re:Economic sense.

[mvdwege]

So in your world no-one ever takes out a mortgage? Don't worry about it, once you've grown up, you'll understand why your post was not optimal in the intelligence department.

It's always nice to see an economic subject on Slashdot; it inevitably brings out the libertards and the teenagers who think that simplistic slogans can substitue for actual thought.

Mart

Re:Economic sense.

[Onuma]

There's a difference between taking out a mortgage and running a government budget. You factor in costs of the mortgage, insurance, possible maintenance and repairs when you buy a home (if you are smart). I have a home, I have a budget which is balanced, I have savings and retirement plans for myself and my wife. Save times when I've held a car loan or mortgage, I have never been in debt; those loans were also planned and budgeted properly to ensure I didn't go upside down.

The government has contracts, most recently which are paid through short-term, performance-based metrics. They also have to account for maintenance and emergency services, just like a household. They've got bills to pay on a regular basis as well. The problem with government budgeting is that they say "We've got $xxx to spend. We need to spend every dollar, or we might have a reduced budget next year." This is the opposite mentality of businesses which have the mindset of "If we make $xxx but only spend half of that, we just made a profit."

If you believe managing a budget and not overspending over the long-term is not a viable economic practice, I'd hate to see your balance book. And to call that idea liberal is way off the mark -- you might want to check history before you go flouting shit you don't understand.

Re:Economic sense.

[mvdwege]

Yes, about history: why don't you actually take a look at history and then go read some good books, like those by J.M. Keynes for example?

Your post specifically used timespans of 2 years as long-term overspending. Comparing that to household management, where people routinely take out 30-year loans for 5-6 times their annual pay makes you look stupid, period.

Re:Economic sense.

[Hognoxious]

Many of the people with the most money in America are not investing and creating jobs like they would be during better times.

Yes they are - in China and India respectively.

Re:I know a man who was sued for wiretapping in PA

[Anonymous Coward]

Not just wiretap laws; not just privacy laws, even; ALL laws are made to defend the elite. Privacy, property, imaginary property, tax, etc.; EVERY single area of law is either inherently geared towards those making or possessing unusually large amounts of money (tax/property) or those with better defenses (everything else), which they got, lo and behold, from being substantially wealthier than those they are suing/being sued by.

It's complete BS. The idea that the west is "free" is entirely absurd when the justice system steamrolls so haphazardly anyone of normal income whenever a billionaire is involved. We live in a corporatist west (not just one country), moving on some fronts towards a fascist one. It is utterly shameful.

21-32 trillion (includes all offshore accounts)

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey many billions -- nay, TRILLIONS -- of dollars have wealthy individuals from around the globe hidden in Swiss bank accounts?

Since you ask, around 21-32 trillion: as much as the US and Japanese economies combined.
http://www.taxjustice.net/cms/upload/pdf/The_Price_of_Offshore_Revisited_Presser_120722.pdf
That includes all off shore accounts, not just Swiss.

What a crap government

[CuteSteveJobs]

> The list has been in the possession of the Greek government since 2010

Sounds to me more like the people of Greece should be arresting the Greek government.

Perhaps....

[Cute and Cuddly]

It is quite possible that is not because those people have a bank account with HSBC, but what else do they have and what do they do. Perhaps some senior public servants? Perhaps some powerful entreperneurs (Yes that is a French word) that can influence law makers. Somehow, this offended some people that was too risky to offend.

Re:I know a man who was sued for wiretapping in PA

[brit74]

Are you suggesting that the woman in your story was one of the powerful elite?

I don't know exactly what the laws are, but isn't it illegal to use illegally-obtained evidence in court? I assume this is to prevent the police from using illegal means to collect evidence. Like I said, I don't know exactly what the laws are, but it seems like this might be pertinent in this case.

Control of information is power

[EmperorOfCanada]

This is a classic case of government panicking when they lose control of information and thus power. I find when a government spends too much time controlling information they tend to forget what they are actually supposed to be doing. I love how this compares to a functioning government like Norway where you can access people's tax records online. There are a few odd rules though; there is a time window and I believe that people know who has accessed their records. Thus the open information includes knowing which of your neighbours are nosy. But the best part is the first year they went online the public found famous rich people claiming $150,000 in income resulting in investigations.

Journalist?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who thought that publishing the phone book qualified as journalism?

Re:The same thing happened in the US

[im_thatoneguy]

"Poignantly contrary to what was expected or intended"

e.g. criticizing someone for a lack of transparency while yourself being non-transparent. The usage was correct.

Re:let me ask you

[PPH]

why you need to specifically have a swiss account and not say a more close to home one ?

The pictures on their checks are prettier.

Rinse, Lather, Repeat.

[Anonymous Coward]

How to get money from poor people. Get 'em to believe what you tell 'em, then take them for all they are worth and sell them down the river.

All through history, rich have taken from the poor by playing them using trust and greed. Lotteries. Religion. Gambling. Medicine shows. "Insurance".

Lately, its been the dot-com bomb, followed by real-estate, and I am pretty confident the next "golden cow" for the rich is selling the middle class a soon-to-be highly depreciated rather useless soft yellow metal, while the rich snap up commodities, food, energy, and critical industrial metals.

You should never believe anything spoken through a microphone.

Ante gamisou

[Anonymous Coward]

Streisand effect strong is with this government.

Re:The same thing happened in the US

[im_thatoneguy]

The closest instance to this story is Brad Birkenfeld.

In 2007, Birkenfeld decided to tell the DOJ what he knew about UBS's practices. At the same time, he wanted to take advantage of a new federal whistleblower law that could pay him up to 30% of any tax revenue recouped by the IRS as a result of Birkenfeld's information. Birkenfeld also wanted immunity from prosecution for his part in UBS's transactions. In April 2007, Birkenfeld's counsel sent the DOJ a summary of the Birkenfeld's information. The DOJ responded that it was not part of the IRS's whistleblower program and that it would not grant Birkenfeld immunity.Nonetheless, Birkenfeld met with the DOJ. When communications between Birkenfeld and the DOJ stalled, Birkenfeld contacted the Securities and Exchange Commission, the IRS, and the U.S. Senate.In April 2008, Birkenfeld's lawyers told the DOJ that he would assist the DOJ in return for immunity. One or two months later, Birkenfeld was arrested. The DOJ's top tax lawyer said, "With regard to whistleblowers: those who seek to be treated as true whistleblowers need to know they must come in early and give complete and truthful disclosures.... Mr. Birkenfeld did not come in and give complete and truthful disclosures. Therefore, he is not entitled to whistleblower status."
In September 2012, the IRS Whistleblower Office awarded Birkenfeld $104 million as a whistleblower.

I would spend 3 years in jail for $104 million dollars. I disagree with his prosecution and arrest, but he's hardly a victim, or if he is please make me a victim too.

Also they got more than $700 million in fines/taxes from his information. So the notion that they aren't following up on his information is false.

Re:I know a man who was sued for wiretapping in PA

[Attila Dimedici]

This is not true. There are ten states that are all party notification states (that is they require that all parties agree to be recorded): California Connecticut Florida Maryland Massachusetts Montana (requires notification only) Nevada New Hampshire Pennsylvania Washington
In addition, if the conversation takes place between one of these states and a state that allows one-party notification, the stricter laws apply. There is however another problem with the story the OP posted. Most of those states have an exception for if the person threatens the life of the person they are talking to or if they commit a felony in the phone conversation (e.g. offer to sell illegal drugs).

Pirate Party statement on the arrest

[tvelocity]

The Pirate Party of Greece has already issued a statement positioning itself on this matter: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=el&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pirateparty.gr%2F2012%2F10%2Fvaxevanis-lista%2F

Re:The same thing happened in the US

[zennyboy]

That's ironic

Re:The same thing happened in the US

[man_of_mr_e]

Wow, we're in irony overload now. Someone ironically criticizes someone elses use of the word irony using an ironic reference from a movie filled with irony.

Re:I know a man who was sued for wiretapping in PA

[AK Marc]

Yeah, the story stinks. It sounds like a lie told by a man against his ex-wife. Likely she also had custody of their children, and he was willing to do anything to get them back.

Did he send it to the "other state" where the murder happened? That's the only place that has jurisdiction over he murder. Also note, at the time I post this, he hasn't responded with any other information, making it look more like a false story, though "I know a man" sounds fishy. At least he picked a state where two-party is required http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_recording_laws#All-party_notification_states

Re:This is news?

[AK Marc]

I have no idea what Greece law is, but in the US, stolen evidence is perfectly fine to use, so long as the police didn't commission the theft.

Austerity measures, what's the point?

[mysidia]

While more and more austerity measures are being taken against the people of Greece, there is still no investigation of tax evasion for the people on this list by the government.

Investigation into tax-evasion is not a cost-effective way of reducing deficits. Just because people are on "the list" does not necessarily mean they are guilty. And even if they are, it is unlikely that the taxes and penalties recovered provide a significant benefit.

Investigations are more of a way of deterring non-compliance; to the extent that the deterrent is effective, it is useful.. Once a certain rate of compliance is reached, there is only a certain amount of investigation that is cost-effective

Re:Inflation DOES NOT devalue debt

[Sir_Sri]

Euro inflation would devalue their debt.

But yes, individually greece (portugal, spain etc.) having debt in euro's is about as good as having debt in US dollars, a currency they don't control, don't have a source of enough of, and no way to ease their way out of it.

Greece thankfully is an insignificant part of the Eurozone

True, but not. Greece is the first victim of a problem that will hit everyone in the Euro without reform. Even if there were only two countries in the Euro one of the two would have the same basic problem that greece has - they're forcibly less competitive than the other one, and they aren't getting enough payments out of it.

Really you can't spend more money than you raise in taxes forever, sooner or later it comes back to bite you.

Aside from the fact that british did that for 250 year and are still doing it and their country hasn't imploded - so your statement is factually untrue, that isn't the issue anyway. Greece's debt situation is directly related to being on the Euro, if they weren't on the Euro their debt wouldn't be a problem, and they would have likely had an actual recovery and not further depression.

That fixes nothing

[Anonymous Coward]

Euro zone is profitable, it has a surplus.

" Even if there were only two countries in the Euro one of the two would have the same basic problem that greece has - they're forcibly less competitive than the other one, and they aren't getting enough payments out of it."

Giving them separate currencies doesn't fix any imbalance. Because you can't deflate one currency against the other indefinitely without a flight of capital to the more stable currency. No capital means the deflating countries declines at a faster rate. You've simply made things worse.

The fix is to fix the imbalance in the economy. That does not mean that Greece needs to be as successful as Germany, it means that they need to stop LIVING like they're as successful as Germany.

"Aside from the fact that british did that for 250 year and are still doing it and their country hasn't imploded"

Britains last trade surplus with the EU was in 2000, their biggest problem right now is the Euro (also came in 2000), it's no longer necessary to lend to the UK in loans that repay in GBP. This is why Bank of England has been buying treasuries via 'quantitative easing' BECAUSE OTHER COUNTRIES DON'T WANT THEM.

However if you want to look over the longer term, fair enough. Hows the empire doing? Good?

Re:That fixes nothing

[Sir_Sri]

The flight of capital is what you want. You devalue greek currency and have german money flow in, which brings the greek currency up again... this is how free floating currencies work.

However if you want to look over the longer term, fair enough. Hows the empire doing? Good?

Very. If you sum up the individual value of their imperial territories from say 1800-1900, they are combined doing very well. Canada, Australia etc. are doing quite well, india is having ~7% growth rates. And the UK, despite only having 60 million people is still the 6th or 7th largest in the world and would be a notch higher if it wasn't for osbornes double austerity.

This is why Bank of England has been buying treasuries via 'quantitative easing'

This is making UK debt cheaper to have, and making the UK more competitive with europe and the rest of the world, so again, that's the right answer.

Were it not for the second round of austerity the UK would be doing as well as the US.

Re:That fixes nothing

[Hognoxious]

The flight of capital is what you want. You devalue greek currency and have german money flow in, which brings the greek currency up again... this is how free floating currencies work.

Money would flow in on current account, because olives & ouzo (or whatever else they make in Greece, if anything) would appear cheap to Germans & Brits & Norwegians. Of course this'll just bite them in the ass when they want to buy machine tools or microprocessors or oil.

But if they devalue once, they can devalue again. You'd be a fool to invest in a country like that, or you'd demand a huge risk premium. If you think Greek bond yields are high now, imagine what they'd be factoring debts in New Drachma.

Lack of any consequences

[Pecisk]

While for logical reasons Greece must go bankrupt, there's simply no way out of it, I don't support that notion and I agree that IMF and EU must help. However, evil as always is in details. I disagree strongly with several of so called "reforms" and think that with strong performance in several key ones would be enough.

However, problem of course is that Greece is very slow of implementing exactly those, because those problems runs deep within their society. Country officially going under and they still enjoy not paying taxes? Maybe there's reason why Greece is a birth place of modern anarchy. Maybe they really need a lesson here, real taste of their own medicine. This is very sad, as lot of people suffer of lack of any serious politician (trust me, there's such rare breed), one group of parties are just oligarchy, other part - just plain stupid populists. There's not even serious left center. This is price of populism and nation who aren't aware that's not enough to throw cash around and call themselves a "socialist" to have effective, self-sustained country. I'm leftie leaning center and I'm saddened by that ignorance of living within means. You can support poor, eldery, unemployed in many other ways, actually helping them. You can follow budget and your income and see if there's trouble. If greeks have paid their taxes, they wouldn't be in such trouble.

As for journalist, it simply doesn't register why they made this stupid decision to bring him criminal charges which won't withstand scrutiny for 5 minutes in a court room - only revenge as reason makes sense. For *breaching privacy*? First, what that good old "oy protect richies from public" law do in their criminal codex in first place? I think modern consensus in such cases is civil case.

I think at one point in very relatively soon future Germany will simply require to bring justice upon all tax evaders or there won't be any support.

ha?

[superwiz]

Holding a bank account in Switzerland is hardly evidence of tax evasion. The summary is definitely a troll.

Re:ha?

[graffic]

Unfortunately it is.

I'd recommend you a "not so old" song called "Good morning Greece" (Kalhmera Ellada). Where the author (in 2006) charges against politicians saying that they "put what is left in Switzerland".

It is something that everybody knows. But for some reason, even you reject it. Whenever there is a scandal in Greece, there is a Swiss account there. Stolen money? Bribes? Only offshore companies are not all Swiss.

Anyway, why would a "normal citizen" like "a politician" would open a bank account outside of the reach of the European union? There is no need.

The list also contains amounts, that weren't published to avoid "problems". That list was to be used, not to be published, but after almost 3 years with no use. There you have the list of names.

Nothing will happen. They will get their revenge from the journalist, will make his life hell. The IRS won't investigate anything: they didn't do it before, they won't do it now. Ant the country will continue its free fall.

"The summary is definitely a troll" - Love that strategy of repeating non-sense till people believe it. Keep repeating.

Re:ha?

[superwiz]

Anyway, why would a "normal citizen" like "a politician" would open a bank account outside of the reach of the European union? There is no need.

As the other post points out, political instability (which has marked the European Union for the past year or two) would be a very classic reason to keep money in Switzerland. And by the way, this is Slashdot. Obvious mistaken syllogisms have no place here. Just because most corruption scandals involve Swiss accounts, does not (at all whatsoever) imply that most Swiss accounts involves a corruption scandal. Unless, of course, you also believe that just because most terrorists today are Muslims, this must necessarily mean that most Muslims are terrorists? It's the same logical fallacy. By the way, I didn't just accuse of racism. Only of bad logic.... just in case you were going for rightful indignation as your next topic of debate.

Nothing will happen.

Nothing should happen other than the jail time for someone publishing private bank accounts of individuals in a public forum. That's a pretty nasty thing to do. And god help us all if we reach a day when it's not illegal.

"The summary is definitely a troll" - Love that strategy of repeating non-sense till people believe it. Keep repeating.

It wasn't proof through repetition. It was a conclusion drawn based on the argument presented.

Re:Inflation DOES NOT devalue debt

[inglorion_on_the_net]

Aside from the fact that british did that for 250 year and are still doing it and their country hasn't imploded

Not sure that's the best example. On that timescale, I think you may find that Britain has collapsed quite a bit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_empire#Decolonisation_and_decline_.281945.E2.80.931997.29

Re:The same thing happened in the US

[UnknownSoldier]

Was this one of the cases?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Birkenfeld

What do you expect of a country...

[zazzel]

that has not managed to build a proper land registry office so far? Just give them a little more time, they have only had time since 1830 to finish it.

source, German language: http://www.cicero.de/weltbuehne/auf-der-suche-nach-dem-katasteramt/52211

Re:Tax records - Jailtime

[scsirob]

Well, as this article proves, that may work in Greece too.
Except the journalist who tried by publishing page one of the Greek edition now finds himself in jail, How is that for irony...

Re:Inflation DOES NOT devalue debt

[cyber-vandal]

Not due to borrowing as such but due to two ruinous world wars.

A persistent lie

[SmallFurryCreature]

Taxes on cars and petrol do not COVER the costs or roads. Not even close. Roads are expensive. The car is NOT a milk cow as many believe, the car is in fact heavily subsidized from general taxes.

Just look at the public figures for the relevant department in your country. X + Y income from fuel and road taxes. Z expenditure. If Z is higher, then cars don't pay for roads, tax payers do. But everyone needs roads so that is okay. Just stop bleating how your fuel tax pays for everything, it doesn't.

Re:A persistent lie

[Hognoxious]

So what would you tax to pay for defence? I for one don't buy aircraft carriers very often.

Except this

[SmallFurryCreature]

When the Germans got a list of tax-evaders, they prosecuted them. When the Greeks got a list of tax-evaders, they prosecuted the publisher of the list.

The Greeks have since they joined the EU never contributed a single dime, they have ALWAYS been a drain and now they want even more money. They should NEVER have been let into the EU, in fact the EU should have stopped north of France. The Benelux and maybe Germany and the Scandinavian countries, they share a common culture, the protestant work ethic. It is no surprise that the problems are with ALL the southern EU nations and the red headed catholics, the Irish.

There is a gigantic difference in culture you just can't cross with ideals.

Greece is a good example of what NOT to do

[assertation]

Though it isn't the way he meant it, Romney is spot on for warning American's about becoming another Greece.

While the people are suffering austerity measures, the rich are evading taxes.

Romney wants to impose austerity measures here in the USA, give tax cuts to the rich and so far austerity measures have only made the economies in Europe worse.

Yes, use your vote to help the US from becoming another Greece or Europe, vote against Romney and austerity measures.

Re:Inflation DOES NOT devalue debt

[Sir_Sri]

And an actual legitimate change in the moral feeling of the world.

Had the UK canada and australia (and a few of the smaller countries) remained one big country we'd be much better off, but overall the morality of keeping africa and india simply made the whole thing impossible.

Blind

[NewYork]

"In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is stoned to death" --Vinge

Re:It is an invasion of privacy

[Hognoxious]

Just because they have a Swiss account does not mean they are tax evaders.

No, but it means it's worth checking them out.