Journalist Arrested In Greece For Publishing List of Possible Tax-Evaders

kyriacos writes "The Greek government is charging journalist Kostas Vaxevanis with violation of the data privacy law for publishing a list of about 2,000 Greeks who hold accounts with the HSBC bank in Switzerland. While more and more austerity measures are being taken against the people of Greece, there is still no investigation of tax evasion for the people on this list by the government. The list has been in the possession of the Greek government since 2010."

Comments

He should be jailed

[multiben]

Evading tax is every Greeks' right and what has made Greece the economic powerhouse it is today.

Re:He should be jailed

[PolygamousRanchKid]

My first thought was, "Who needs a list? Just pick up a copy of the Athens Telephone Book."

Re:He should be jailed

[Sulphur]

My first thought was, "Who needs a list? Just pick up a copy of the Athens Telephone Book."

What an unorthodox use of mathematical symbols.

Re:He should be jailed

[Dahamma]

You joke, but my Greek friend (who's family has a house in Athens that they probably don't pay taxes one) freely admitted tax evasion is practically a national pastime in Greece. They really do consider it not only a right, but almost an obligation.

And you wonder how the Olympics almost bankrupted the government? Well, that attitude towards taxes makes the statement "oh, all of the tax revenues from increased tourism and business in Greece will more than make up for the expenses" a bit hard to back up...

Re:He should be jailed

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, if your friend told you so, then by all means you're right to be modded "informative". Although the truth is that only a minority of the people tax evade in Greece. People who are not self-employed or business owners, get their taxes withheld from their monthly salary (and that makes about 60% of the greek workforce). They may or may not pay more or get some money back at the end of the year, depending on their total income/spending.

The are reasons that the view that we shouldn't pay taxes is somewhat more widespread in Greece than in other countries, though. When you have a corrupt government, and a broken down pubic education and healthcare system, you really don't like giving part of the wealth you produce to bankers, weapon dealers and friends of the govenment. Greece was one of the top countries in buying weapons (mainly from the U.S.) before the crisis started, and there were tons of scandals involving greek politicians getting money under the table to close some weapon deals.

Moreover, the greek tax system resembles the way the Mafia works. Every year, for the last ten years, the government makes you an offer. It'll ask for about 500-1000 euros (depending on how much income you actually declared) and in return they promise to never check your books for that year. The more you're tax evading, the more of a bargain this is. If you're not tax evading though, you'll probably take their offer anyway. Why? Because Greece has a very complicated tax system and if they check your tax declarations really close (which they'll do if you don't take their offer) they'll probably find something to fine you for an you'll end up paying more. Although this has slowed down a bit the last 2-3 years, as people don't have 500 euros to pay to the IRS anyway.

Oh, and the Olympics did not bankrupt the government because of tax evasion. They bankrupted the government because the construction companies in greece are in bed with the governement (the same ppl own the media and most of the banks). The government paid huge amounts for the olympic works to the construction companies. I still recall the case of a stadium that was to be renovated for a budget of a million euros. We ended up paying 20.

The money that greece is being given now (as debt), move in two directions: most of them, repay previous loans (so they go to banks), and some of them go directly to the greek banks. So, the german taxpayer loans money to the greek government. The money go straight to the greek and foreign banks and the greek people now have a debt towards the german (and the rest of the EU) people. It's not fair for the greek people and it's not fair for the german people.

The greek media all support the current status quo and for a good reason. There are no greek media that are economically succesfull. They have never been, not for one year. They survive with loans. The only reason that banks loan money year after year to the greek media although they know that they're not going to get paid back, is that the media in return support the current situation.

Re:He should be jailed

[dinfinity]

I don't know how it is over there, but most people I know are proud of it when they evade paying (some) taxes (in one of the richest countries of the world). Even the righteous ones.
I think it's mainly that the way in which paying income taxes is done is experienced too much like a game. You get to fill in some (digital) form with lots of variables and if you find the right values, you get or save a bundle of money. It equates finding a tax loophole or even just being aware of certain deductibles to some kind of glitch in a game one can exploit. Like a trick you've learnt; in this case a trick that pays off quite significantly.

The anguish one should feel when 'stealing from society' is probably suppressed by several things:
The complexity of most tax codes probably aids in soothing people's minds by allowing them to think that they probably are or have been overlooking deductibles they are entitled to.
And of course, very few people would like to admit that they probably spend their money a lot more frivolous than their government does. They simply recall some ill-advised bit of government spending and convince themselves that it will be better for the country if they get to spend that money.

One of the things that is being done in my country to mitigate the 'game' aspect is to have most if not all of the details already filled in when you download the program to do your tax returns. This doesn't preclude gaming the tax system (and people with lots of money probably still will), but many more people would then simply look over the data and confirm it, not being invited to start playing at all. Some people will refrain from paying an expert to do their tax returns, which also means less gaming.

Simplifying an unnecessarily complex tax code is a no brainer. Improving the opinion of the populace when it comes to the prudence of government spending is something that isn't done enough, however. One of my replies to people bitching about paying taxes is whether they've ever driven a car across our border to one of our neighboring countries and experienced how crappy the roads get almost immediately. After they concur and share some crappy road-experience, I remind them that they can choose between great roads or pay less taxes for them, but not both. Most choose great roads (although some insist that somebody else but them should be paying for them).
BTW, I am not arguing that there isn't a lot that can be improved to the spending of most governments, just that public opinion of paying taxes is skewed in the wrong direction and should be improved.

Also, I am not government employed or linked to it in any way. Just trying to be rational.

Get out of Greece now.

[Animats]

If you're in Greece and don't already have your money out of the country, you're an idiot. This isn't about taxes. It's about Greece threatening to leave the euro area, switch to a local currency (bring back the drachma!), and printing money to get out of their financial disaster. People in Greece, as EU residents, have no obligation to participate in this. The EU encourages cross-border banking. So everybody with any significant cash is moving it to German, French, or Swiss banks in case the axe falls.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes everybody pull your money out because that will make it better.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[MtHuurne]

The difference between a Swiss bank and a bank in another European country is that Swiss banks don't share information about the account balance with the governments of their respective clients. So while having a Swiss bank account doesn't necessarily mean someone is evading taxes, the vast majority of the people evading taxes will use Swiss bank accounts.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Anonymous Coward]

Local currencies are bad how, exactly? It seems that participating in the euro has brought forced austerity measures and foreigners dictating local policy, wages, benefits, etc. When somebody else controls your money, it matters rather little who runs your government.

I mean, it's not like, to dip into recent history, the ex leaders of Iraq and Libya suddenly became bad guys. They were bad guys for years and we didn't care, other than the occasional one sided ass whipping they got once in a while. Now, when they decided to make moves that would make them independent of the US dollar, all of the sudden THEN they become problems worth dealing with.

That doesn't matter, though, because while I'd love to blame that on Fox News, which is deserving of so much condemnation, the fact is that no US news source with a mass following reports on these things. So you end up with a population ignorant of why the rest of the world hates us, which is susceptible to such claptrap as "the terrorists hate us for our freedom" and other such nonsense like that. It really is all about money, and the banksters don't care who gets trampled on as long as they win. Watch what's going to happen in Greece if they seriously get someone in charge who really has the potential and the willingness to leave the euro.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Zapotek]

Maybe in the good'ol days, but unless my memory fails me, they crumbled a few years ago under international pressure in order to assist in investigating tax evaders.

PS. The "good'ol days" part was added for comedic effect, I'm actually Greek and have been paying taxes since I got my first semi-real job at 17.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Anonymous Coward]

Shouldn't you be out occupying a Starbucks?

You are wrong on so many points it's absurd. Greece has had 30 years to get its finances in order, but corruption prevailed. Greece wants to stay in the Euro zone because leaving it would collapse the last of the international trade they do.
The best thing for Greece in the short term would be bankrupcy because that would clear the debt, but in the long term it wouldn't change anything about its abysmal economy and the endemic tax dodging and would mean leaving the Eurozone. Also its creditors won't get paid which shifts the economic burden onto the rest of the world. Also there is no need to move the cash out of Greece, because it was moved to Swizerland (which is not part of the European banking union by the way) long ago.

With such a lack of understanding of basic economics in the world, it's no wonder the whole house of cards is on the brink of collapse.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[HornWumpus]

They crumbled for new money.

If you have a numbered account (opened before 1950 IIRC) your family secrets are still safe with the Swiss.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[hairyfeet]

Actually getting out of the Euro would probably be a smart thing, as they will frankly NEVER be able to pay back the loans and most likely the people will revolt over the measures being imposed on them in return for the loans.

Whether you agree or disagree with the direction Greece is headed you simply can't force the people to accept what essentially was a crooked deal between the large banks like JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs (Why am I not surprised that GS was involved? I swear they are Wolfram & Hart, and I wouldn't be shocked if their board was demons in Gucci suits) and the former government.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Baloroth]

The irony about gold is that the current high price is the result of an artificial bubble maintained by gold sellers pushing the staying power of gold. You didn't think those advertisements telling you to buy gold were for your own good, did you? No, they are to drive the price of gold high and keep it that way.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Smallpond]

The ads are to hold the price up long enough for the early purchasers to convert to dollars.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Alomex]

Their debts are enumerated in euros so they have to pay them back in euros.

Nope, they can simply default on the debt and pay it back in Drachmas, like many other countries have done in the past.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Sir_Sri]

There is a legitimate point that inflation is what Greece, Spain, Italy and Portual need. Now ideally they would get there from a eurozone inflation of target of 4% and ease through this gradually (as the US generally has), but the other option will be for the Eurozone to break up, and they would likely be first to be kicked out (unless the germans leave first, which would help too).

Inflation devalues debt. Since one persons debt is anothers holding you can see the issue. But of course most people don't have a lot of money in cash assets. They have houses and stocks and so on.

Rightly, what he's complaining about is that reducing the value of a currency can make your labour worth less. This is true, and tied in concept to something in economics called nominal wage rigidity. Basically no one wants to take a face value pay cut. So to make your economy more competitive (more exports, more tourists, less imports, less of your people touring elsewhere) you want to reduce your own costs, and one way to do that is inflation.

Greece is essentially a balance of payments problem, all of the euro area is, combined with a monetary but not a fiscal union. If it wasn't for defence, medicare and medicaid and social security being *federal* in the US a lot of states would be in deep trouble right now. But because relatively rich areas keep sending money to poorer areas (especially areas that are poor because of the housing bubble and the now market bubble). What the greeks need is to decrease their costs relative to germany to attract investment, or get direct payments from germany. Either would work. The first, when in the Euro, is a mess, the Euro area could aim for a larger inflation target, essentially they'd decrease costs against everyone else at least, Greece might not be more competitive against germany but it would at least be more competitive against the US and Japan and China. The latter, which is essentially what the germans are talking about, European Federalism, seems to be a non starter politically.

So sure, he's shilling gold, and gold isn't a hedge against anything, it's just a metal that varies wildly in price, in part based on fears about inflation. Small persistent inflation (fiat currencies trend down) is a feature, not a defect of the system. But there's a kernel of truth to the fact that a lot of people in europe are looking at greece and figuring they want to having their money somewhere else, because if the Euro area starts kicking people out rather than actually solving problems a lot of people are going to get really fucked in the short term, and there they really might be better with bars of metal than cash. Incidentally, as other people have pointed out, this reality is why the barter system is picked back up, and is preventing major investment, so between that and austerity greece is only going to get worse unless there's some serious credible move towards an actual european solution, and given that, bars of any metal, even iron might be better than Greece Euros.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Anonymous Coward]

The ads are to hold the price up long enough for the early purchasers to convert to yuan.

FTFY

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Dahamma]

True - if it were up to capitalism the government would not be int the state they are in. A lot of citizens might be homeless, underfed, and sick, and Greeks rioting in the streets, but the government wouldn't be broke.

Then again, apparently Greeks will riot in the streets either way, so in the end it may not have made much of a difference.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[PolygamousRanchKid]

The folks at The Economist can explain that in more detail: http://www.economist.com/node/21555923

Although the Greek government is close to running a primary budget surplus (ie, before interest payments) it still needs further official loans to honour obligations due this year, notably redemptions of bonds held by the European Central Bank (ECB), which were excluded from the restructuring in March that slashed the face value of €200 billion of debt held by private bondholders by over half. If the lifeline from the EFSF were cut off by its creditor nations, Greece would be unable to pay those debts. And if the ECB makes it a matter of principle not to lend (or permit the Bank of Greece to lend) to banks against collateral consisting of bonds and guarantees from a government in default, then it in turn would cut Greece off. Greek banks currently rely upon some €130 billion of central-bank funding. Without the ECB money the entire banking system would collapse. If the flow of money was reduced, and the conditions it is lent on tightened, the Greek government might start to issue IOUs to its workers to make up the shortfall. If the flow stopped, leaving the banks no euros to pay out, a new currency would be the only alternative.

The government would redenominate domestic bank assets and liabilities into drachma and insist that domestic contracts, such as pay and prices, be also set in drachma. Capital controls would be necessary because the drachma would immediately fall against the euro, possibly losing 50% or more of its value in a trice.

In the short term Greece's economic agony—its economy shrank by 13% from 2007 to 2011 and is expected to contract by almost 5% this year—would intensify. A precipitous exit without preparation would leave the country without notes and coin. The surrounding chaos would paralyse economic activity, causing consumers and businesses to stop spending. Economists at UBS, a Swiss bank, have estimated that the cost of a catastrophic exit might amount to 40-50% of GDP in the first year.

That figure assumes that Greece would have to leave the EU as well as the euro, and thus lose access to the single market. On strict legal grounds that may be the case, in part because exit requires capital controls, and those controls are illegal under EU treaties. In practice European policymakers are making it clear they would do their utmost to keep Greece in the EU. Assuming such helpfulness, Mark Cliffe, an economist at ING, a Dutch bank, reckons that the effect would be less. He puts the first-year extra loss of output at 7.5%.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Sir_Sri]

The euro isn't threatened by Greece staying or going, they're too small to actually matter much. The Euro is threatened by what caused Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece and Spain to be in serious messes, which is the same problem that will eventually chip away at all of the countries that aren't germany - germany is the strongest economy in the Euro area, and the biggest, so they will be dragged down by everyone else eventually, but Euro policy rests on german exports.

The Euro was constructed with the idea that they would get a currency and settle the political and fiscal (EU budget powers basically) issues later. Because the Uk wasn't going along with one provision or another, other people wanted their own deals, no one really wanted to transfer power to Brussels, because, as you rightfully point out, they're not apparently doing a very good job.

Unfortunately, that system isn't sustainable, it happened to hit Greece, and Ireland and Spain and Portugal first, but the problem is fundamental to the EU and Euro area, and is not going to go away if greece is gone. Greece leaving the Euro area would be good for greece ultimately, though obviously the transition would be... unpleasant.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[ToadProphet]

You didn't think those advertisements telling you to buy gold were for your own good, did you? No, they are to drive the price of gold high and keep it that way.

The folks that are swayed to buy gold by a 30 second TV spot aren't even a blip in the market. There's tens of thousands of tens in government reserves around the world, and individual investors are likely many decimal places away from even being noteworthy.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[AK Marc]

Yup, now a days, you go to the Cayman Islands.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Cassini2]

For business, local currencies are a nightmare. The exchange rate risk becomes extreme, and eventually everyone just adds on an extra markup to make up for the risk. The result is that every consumer and business in the entire area just pays more money. This was what was happening in the Eurozone.

Imagine America, with every state having its own fiscal policy. Major transactions would be done in either New York, Texas or California dollars, and anyone that received a California dollar would immediately trade it for a New York dollar. If you went from Alibama to South Carolina, businesses wouldn't know how to exchange your currency. You would need to carry New York dollars for some exchanges, and Texas dollars for other exchanges. In this imaginary world, interstate trade would be a convoluted mess of foreign exchange transactions, and every middlemen would demand a cut.

That scenario was what was happening in Europe. As such, many countries developed a common monetary system around the Euro. The remaining two internationally easily convertable currencies for Europe are the British Pound and the Euro. For the most part, the British Pound is used for foreign transactions. EU businesses convert everything to Euros, as the Euro is the defacto liquid currency. For example: a Danish business will use Danish Krones and Euros, and a Hugarian business will use Hungarian Forints and Euros. To trade, the transaction will be priced in Euros, because both businesses use Euros.

The US has a huge commercial advantage with its federal reserve system, large size, and single common currency. Europe is trying to catch up. In the future, China's and India's currencies will be more important, as those countries grow in affluence and formalize their business practices. However, for the moment, it is difficult to explain to a US citizen what an incredible achievement the US economy is.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Anonymous Coward]

You are confusing capitalism with economic liberalism. Capitalism works very well with socialist policies, including the so called social democracy ideology. If you have any trouble letting that sink in, just know this: the free market and invisible hand stuff do work, but understand that the government can also be an economic actor just like any other corporation or private individual. So, just because the government shelters the homeless, feeds teh hungry and heals the sick, it doesn't mean it can't do it in a capitalist economy.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[jelizondo]

I undid many moderations to inform you, so appreciate it.

The Cayman Islands have signed enough tax-treaties to get into the "white list" of the OCDE. Google it or just read this.

Depending on your nationality and preferences, today you go to Singapore, Belize, Holland or Panama.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Anonymous Coward]

Their debts are enumerated in euros so they have to pay them back in euros.

They simply state "All debts will be paid back with Drachma. If you don't like that, let us know, and we'll cancel our debt with you." People would sign up to take the drachma, if the alternative was nothing. One or two would hold out, and Greece would default on those, and nobody would care, because the people who refused to take the offered drachma would be blamed.

OR some of those hedge funds would follow recent example http://www.businessinsider.com/hedge-fund-elliott-capital-management-seizes-ara-libertad-ship-owned-by-argentina-2012-10 and use courts in exceptionally corruptible countries to win judgements and seize mobile property of the Greek government to force full payment.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Sir_Sri]

but I really understand Germans looking at the problem and just thinking its better to kick Greeks out of Euro

Half of germany have buried their heads in the sand and believe it's some moral failure of the greeks in not paying their debts which has nothing to do with reality, the other half are living in a fantasy land of using this as leverage to force federalism "we'll give you money if you give power to brussels" so to speak. Germans of course, being descended from a federation of independent kingdoms doesn't have the same problem with federalism as everyone else in the euro area.

How fair is that? That its German taxes that will save a country that despite being in a fucked situation can not at least start pretending to be serious with tax?

And this puts you in the crowd of wanting to believe this is some great moral failure of the greeks. Their taxes as a % of gdp and spending as a % of GDP were not radically different from the rest of the euro area for the last decade, you're just buying rhetoric that wants people to feel good about forcing more and more austerity on them, and trying to destroy their country from the outside.

People need to learn that taxes are unavoidable in life.

People need to learn that every tax that can be avoided will be. Part of constructing a good tax code (that properly distributes tax burdens, properly defined however you want) is making sure you plan for loopholes. Europe has always had a problem with switzerland and the city states being tax havens, it's not like germans haven't been hiding their money in Switzerland and Lichtenstein for the the last 2 centuries after all, but they've learned to cope with it as best they can.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[jelizondo]

Same here, I used to work for a group of companies incorporated in Cayman, after the OCDE deal, they moved to Belize; there is an economic development zone that is basically a tax-haven.

Actually, one of the partners renounced his U.S. citizenship because of taxes and acquired the belizian (sp?) nationality...

Wherever you go, people just don't want to pay taxes...

Cheers

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[Vaphell]

... and believe it's some moral failure of the greeks in not paying their debts which has nothing to do with reality

not that i am a fan of further unification; care to elaborate how it's not a failure of the greeks? Who took those massive debts and spent everything on hookers and blow? Martians? Oh, those evul bureaucrats in government who schemed with foreign bankers and cheated the honest uncorrupted greek society... but who voted for them? Santa Claus?
Did they expect to load on debt ad infinitum to fund lavish welfare programs without any consequences?

Their taxes as a % of gdp and spending as a % of GDP were not radically different from the rest of the euro area for the last decade

so i guess you missed the fact they had no problem with lying their way into the monetary union, cooking the books every single year, marking everything to fantasy and doing that shady credit default swap business with GS to move shitton of expenses off the balance sheet. Yup, everything would be rainbows and ponies if only zee germans left them alone.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[cyberdime]

I vaguely remember some saying that if you owe your debtors a little then you have a problem, but if you owe them a lot then your debtors have a problem. I suppose it's different if your debtors happen to be the Mafia.

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[wideglide]

I'm swiss and I just want to inform you that almost anyone tries to hide some money or whatever from the government. For the past 60 years the folks in my surroundings (I live near the german border) have used accounts in germany to hide cash ... others used italian banks or french ones ... If you want to open an account in germany the jolly fellow at the counter will ask you if the bank should sent the yearly statements to the tax office or to you, as you will be doing that ... right ? This is just the pot calling the kettle black. Fact ist - nobody likes to pay taxes. But I prefer to pay taxes rather than handing over the cash to a bank (they are usually corporations ...) as this way the community profits from it. At the same time it is important to inform oneself about the proceedings on the political level in the community where you life and participate within the law and your preferences. This is a result of our culture, living in a direct democracy since 1848 ... where you can vote whether to build a new tunnel to cross the alps easier or the colour of the local school building ...

Re:Get out of Greece now.

[flyingfsck]

Local currencies are all bad? UK, Poland and Czechia to name a just a few of the EU members that have their own currency, are doing fine.

Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

while the government is in possesion of a list of people those people in turn are in possesion of the government.

Tax records

[Anonymous Coward]

Tax records are public documents in Finland. In fact, they are published as an annual bestseller (two pieces of information are listed: the reported annual income and the total tax).

The logic is the same as with court records. The citizens need to be able to trust that the tax system treats everybody fairly.

Re:Tax records

[HornWumpus]

The rich keep their money safely in banks. You want to rob criminals who don't pay taxes and hence don't keep their money in banks.

Re:Tax records

[HornWumpus]

Which will get you 10% of fair value.

Most criminals are stupid. After the time they serve they would have done better at McDonald's.

Re:Tax records

[Anonymous Coward]

They might, and I'm just suggesting this, actually like it in their brainwashed collectivist nightmare, because it might not be as nightmarish as you seem to think.

Re:Tax records

[Anonymous Coward]

I haven't heard people complaining about the openness of the tax system.

But let me shock you some more: most fines are not specified in absolute amounts. Instead, they are specified as percentages of your reported annual income. When the police stop you for doing 20 km/h over the speed limit, they pull out their smartphones and look up your previous year's tax filing to figure out the amount of your fine. Some fortunate individuals have had to pay well over a hudred thousand dollars for speeding.

Again, there's logic there. While in the U.S. you are sometimes ordered to do community service, in Finland you don't have to take time off your precious profession. Instead, the government rules that for a number of days, you work for the community in your present job. In other words, the government confiscates the wages you earned during those days. You get a lesson but your career is not jeopardized.

Re:Tax records

[udachny]

I wish them luck, but you are not following me, I am not talking about the majority of Finns, I am wondering about that minority that do not agree with the system. I don't care how much the majority is brainwashed into it, how it is 'ingrained', all that, I am genuinely interested in the other side of it, those who detest, dissent, disagree, do you understand my question? It's likely that you are not the person to answer it, I am posing that question, it's out there, somebody who understands it may leave a comment.

Re:Tax records

[AK Marc]

They also buy security systems and dogs. "rich" has little to do with income. If I had $1,000,000,000,000 and kept it in the bank in a 0% interest account, I'd show $0 income, but have lots of good stuff, and the ability to get lots more of good stuff. Bobby Brown made what, $5,000,000 a year and went bankrupt? And OJ, and Willie Nelson, and lots others with lots of income have ended up with a negative net worth. So no, making lots doesn't make one wealthy, and pissing off a person able to hire the population of a small town full time to do nothing but look for you is rarely a good idea.

Re:Tax records

[AK Marc]

It's not hard to leave the collective. Emigration isn't that hard. I did it once to get out of the USA (it'll be very post-apocalyptic when it does fail, and having guns to prepare for the looting and lawlessness is less attractive than just moving to a place that won't fall as hard or as fast). So just grow up in the system, hating it. Then, when you are old enough, leave.

Re:Tax records

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, it doesn't work like that over here.

The police don't get any special bonus for harassing wealthy individuals (the fines go to the state treasury and the police report to the Ministry of the Interior), and only a handful of people in the whole country are wealthy enough to actually hire servants.

In the U.S., on the other hand, you have posters threatening a "$1000 fine for littering." That fine could literally make some children starve while the rich people couldn't care less.

Re:Tax records

[hhegner]

But Finland has a better Economy then USA, a lower debt, and a higher standard of living, a much lover crime rate and fewer in prison, and on and on. please go to CIA world fact book and check your facts. Finland is a much better country to live in on all most all areas, and despite being heavily regulated by the government, they would consider them self living in a much more liberal country then the us. Freedom is not only about money. again please go to CIA world fact book and check it out, I have never heard any ting as ignorant and stupid then the words you have put in this tread, I really hope you are trolling,

Re:Tax records

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it's not obvious. Because why would you be posting a question like that on an English-language, US-based tech site instead of a political forum that has least something to do with Finland. Or just find a penpal or something.

Re:Tax records

[Areyoukiddingme]

That was utter bullshit, so why would you expect him to understand it? That law does not discriminate. Everyone convicted of the same crime pays the same percentage. Now if, instead, certain people had a special tag next to their name, like, say Duke, or Count, or Earl, and that meant they paid a smaller percentage fine than anyone who didn't have that special tag, then THAT would be discrimination.

You fail at logic so hard you should stop typing.

Re:Tax records

[AK Marc]

I am talking about the Rule of Law, where government in all its actions is supposed to be bound by rules that are fixed and announced beforehand, so that based on this knowledge individuals can rely to plan their personal affairs

And if the "rule of law" fixes the fine to 2% of annual income (as measured by an average of the highest 2 of the last 3 year's tax returns), what is wrong with that fixed and announced rule?

Re:Tax records

[nedlohs]

It's not a prison, they can migrate leave the country and live elsewhere.

Re:Tax records

[foofish]

To me the very concept of collectivism is as repulsive as for example the idea of murdering 100,000,000 newborn by drowning them all in a tub filled with H2SO4. Do you know what I mean? And that is much fewer deaths and suffering than collectivism actually caused.

It's like one of Ayn Rand's crazy fictional characters came to life!

Re:Tax records

[TranquilVoid]

Any society of greater than about 10 people is going to have a proportion who do not agree with the general consensus. Therefore you get some non-collectivist Scandanavians and you get some collectivist Americans who haven't fallen for the free-market-is-perfect brainwashing (note majority culture and government are intertwined, it would be a mistake to attribute this to the government alone).

Unfortunately for those minorities, rules tend to need to be universal, so the answer to your question is that they probably hate it and, if they have the motivation and means, emigrate to somewhere more aligned with their attitudes.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest very few Scandanavians are trying to get out for financial and security reasons. On the other side it seems rare for U.S. citizens to permanently move also.

Re:Tax records

[TFAFalcon]

So a law can't say that a person has to pay x% of their income if they break a certain law? If that kind of a law is wrong, then what about taxes? Should people all be required to pay X per year, without any regard of what they earned?

the real scandal

[etash]

That's not the real scandal, or should I say is part of it. The real scandal is that the list has been in the government's hands for a couple of years and it has done nothing about it ( it's the same list leaked by a swiss man, and bought and used by the german, US and other governments to collect taxes ). Ex-ministers are saying that a) either they couldn't use the list because the data was not acquired legally or b) we gave the list to the greek IRS but they didn't do anything. There is even an ex-minister ( current leader of pasok ) who admitted he took the usb stick with the list to his home after he resigned from his position.

Re:the real scandal

[Raenex]

That's not the real scandal, or should I say is part of it. The real scandal is that the list has been in the government's hands for a couple of years and it has done nothing about it

In other words, the second and third sentences in the summary:

"While more and more austerity measures are being taken against the people of Greece, there is still no investigation of tax evasion for the people on this list by the government. The list has been in the possession of the Greek government since 2010."

Re:the real scandal

[udachny]

I don't know if anybody on /. understands the principle of austerity, but it seems that most of the planet doesn't understand it.

Austerity is reduction of spending by government, reduction of size of government. The checks that governments sends are supposed to be reduced or completely cut, stopped. The government cannot afford payments, the people cannot afford the government.

That's what austerity is or should be.

Instead the politicians have convinced huge number of people that austerity is supposed to be the same government (or even bigger), and the people are supposed to be taxed to pay for it.

What is actually happening is not austerity, it's theft. The banks that made all sorts of loans to governments of Greece want their money back and the political elite of nations is cooperating in this endeavour, raising taxes and selling off various properties to pay the loans. This is done to maintain the fiction that government debt is 'risk free'. It was always fiction, government debt is at the minimum as risky as the rest of the economy, but it's actually worse, because governments never decrease their spending, even when they cannot actually be afforded by their people.

The people who have holdings in foreign companies and banks outside of their countries are obviously those with the most foresight and those who understand that you do not hold all of your eggs in one basket.

Of-course the fact that government is not pursuing people on that list can mean many different things, for example it can mean that there are many politically connected people on that list.

Also there is another angle to this: the money is outside of the country, who says that Greek government has any claim to it at all? This journalist thinks that these people aren't paying taxes in Greece by hiding money elsewhere, but Greece is not USA or Canada, who want to tax your foreign earnings. Most countries of the world don't engage in such practices, only the 'most free' do.

Of-course the reality is that people who are truly productive and make plenty of money are always a target for the proletariat and the class war, they should be ready to protect themselves under these circumstances (many should have left Greece some time ago and many did).

Re:the real scandal

[udachny]

If a lot of the (ha!) "truly productive" check-out and leave Greece it would probably be a net gain for Greece.

- yeah, because the world is full of examples where countries with only poor people became great economic engines, pulling everybody out of dirt (and doing it without actually turning their entire populations into slave labor and the nation into a meat grinder).

Working and generating wealth is different from owning property and making money from it.

- it's called savings and investments. You can save your money, invest it and it works. Yes, the money works and you allowed it to work by collecting it and not spending it, that's why economies need savers - to allow investments to occur and allow businesses to have access to investors.

Re:the real scandal

[UnknownSoldier]

Same Bullshit in the US too ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Birkenfeld

In October 2001, Birkenfeld began working at UBS in Geneva, Switzerland, handling private banking, primarily for clients located in the United States. In 2005, he learned that UBS's secret dealings with American customers violated an agreement the bank had reached with the IRS.

He resigned from UBS in October 2005 and provided written whistleblower complaints to Peter Kurer, Head Counsel for UBS, and other UBS senior executives regarding the illegal practices of U.S. cross-border business.

He is the first person to expose what has become a multi-billion dollar international tax fraud scandal over Swiss private banking.[2] Despite his unprecedented, extensive and voluntary cooperation, and registering as an IRS whistleblower, Birkenfeld is the only U.S. citizen to be sentenced to jail as a result of the scandal.

Re:The same thing happened in the US

[man_of_mr_e]

So you expect us to take your word for it?

How ironic that you argue against opacity with an opaque claim you can't support.

Ah, dodgy Switzerland

[skegg]

Hey many billions -- nay, TRILLIONS -- of dollars have wealthy individuals from around the globe hidden in Swiss bank accounts?

Under any other circumstances, nations would ban trade with Switzerland unless it shared bank account data with their local tax office. Alas, it's the same fat cats that run our countries who shield their wealth in Switzerland.

It was eye opening when that disgruntled IT fellow burned a copy of bank account data onto a couple of DVD's and then embarked on a global tour of selling to each country a list of their citizens who had money stashed in Switzerland.

Is he still alive?

Re:Ah, dodgy Switzerland

[PolygamousRanchKid]

In Switzerland, banks accounts hold the money of immoral criminals.

In the US, immoral criminals run the banks.

Re:Ah, dodgy Switzerland

[skegg]

Slow down there, cowboy. You make it sound like I want to send in the cavalry.

I wouldn't force Switzerland to abandon its "privacy" laws.
(I think the inverted commas are warranted, don't you? I mean, what are they really protecting?)

I would simply like to see local jurisdictions refuse to trade with Switzerland unless they provided reciprocal financial information on their citizens. (Many countries have already requested such information -- even writing very stern letters! -- and have received nothing in response.) Switzerland can decide whether or not to comply. Virtually all countries share this information*, and it serves a very important purpose. If I get sued here in Australia, a court can easily determine my financial value (house, bank accounts, shares, vehicles, etc). However if I've stashed millions in Switzerland, my victims are SOL. (And I retain my wealth.)

As for Wikileaks ... I'm not sure how you can throw that at me when I'm clearly in favour of more transparency from our governments, not less.

* Just because many countries do something doesn't make it right. But in this situation -- financial records -- I believe it is.

21-32 trillion (includes all offshore accounts)

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey many billions -- nay, TRILLIONS -- of dollars have wealthy individuals from around the globe hidden in Swiss bank accounts?

Since you ask, around 21-32 trillion: as much as the US and Japanese economies combined.
http://www.taxjustice.net/cms/upload/pdf/The_Price_of_Offshore_Revisited_Presser_120722.pdf
That includes all off shore accounts, not just Swiss.

Control of information is power

[EmperorOfCanada]

This is a classic case of government panicking when they lose control of information and thus power. I find when a government spends too much time controlling information they tend to forget what they are actually supposed to be doing. I love how this compares to a functioning government like Norway where you can access people's tax records online. There are a few odd rules though; there is a time window and I believe that people know who has accessed their records. Thus the open information includes knowing which of your neighbours are nosy. But the best part is the first year they went online the public found famous rich people claiming $150,000 in income resulting in investigations.

Re:Economic sense.

[__aaltlg1547]

You need to distinguish between an economic crisis and a government budget crisis. Taxing can get you out of a government budget crisis. Lowering taxes when you don't have enough taxes to cover your current spending will just as surely produce one.

Re:The same thing happened in the US

[im_thatoneguy]

The closest instance to this story is Brad Birkenfeld.

In 2007, Birkenfeld decided to tell the DOJ what he knew about UBS's practices. At the same time, he wanted to take advantage of a new federal whistleblower law that could pay him up to 30% of any tax revenue recouped by the IRS as a result of Birkenfeld's information. Birkenfeld also wanted immunity from prosecution for his part in UBS's transactions. In April 2007, Birkenfeld's counsel sent the DOJ a summary of the Birkenfeld's information. The DOJ responded that it was not part of the IRS's whistleblower program and that it would not grant Birkenfeld immunity.Nonetheless, Birkenfeld met with the DOJ. When communications between Birkenfeld and the DOJ stalled, Birkenfeld contacted the Securities and Exchange Commission, the IRS, and the U.S. Senate.In April 2008, Birkenfeld's lawyers told the DOJ that he would assist the DOJ in return for immunity. One or two months later, Birkenfeld was arrested. The DOJ's top tax lawyer said, "With regard to whistleblowers: those who seek to be treated as true whistleblowers need to know they must come in early and give complete and truthful disclosures.... Mr. Birkenfeld did not come in and give complete and truthful disclosures. Therefore, he is not entitled to whistleblower status."
In September 2012, the IRS Whistleblower Office awarded Birkenfeld $104 million as a whistleblower.

I would spend 3 years in jail for $104 million dollars. I disagree with his prosecution and arrest, but he's hardly a victim, or if he is please make me a victim too.

Also they got more than $700 million in fines/taxes from his information. So the notion that they aren't following up on his information is false.

Pirate Party statement on the arrest

[tvelocity]

The Pirate Party of Greece has already issued a statement positioning itself on this matter: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=el&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pirateparty.gr%2F2012%2F10%2Fvaxevanis-lista%2F

Re:I know a man who was sued for wiretapping in PA

[AK Marc]

Yeah, the story stinks. It sounds like a lie told by a man against his ex-wife. Likely she also had custody of their children, and he was willing to do anything to get them back.

Did he send it to the "other state" where the murder happened? That's the only place that has jurisdiction over he murder. Also note, at the time I post this, he hasn't responded with any other information, making it look more like a false story, though "I know a man" sounds fishy. At least he picked a state where two-party is required http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_recording_laws#All-party_notification_states

Re:Inflation DOES NOT devalue debt

[Sir_Sri]

Euro inflation would devalue their debt.

But yes, individually greece (portugal, spain etc.) having debt in euro's is about as good as having debt in US dollars, a currency they don't control, don't have a source of enough of, and no way to ease their way out of it.

Greece thankfully is an insignificant part of the Eurozone

True, but not. Greece is the first victim of a problem that will hit everyone in the Euro without reform. Even if there were only two countries in the Euro one of the two would have the same basic problem that greece has - they're forcibly less competitive than the other one, and they aren't getting enough payments out of it.

Really you can't spend more money than you raise in taxes forever, sooner or later it comes back to bite you.

Aside from the fact that british did that for 250 year and are still doing it and their country hasn't imploded - so your statement is factually untrue, that isn't the issue anyway. Greece's debt situation is directly related to being on the Euro, if they weren't on the Euro their debt wouldn't be a problem, and they would have likely had an actual recovery and not further depression.

Re:Inflation DOES NOT devalue debt

[inglorion_on_the_net]

Aside from the fact that british did that for 250 year and are still doing it and their country hasn't imploded

Not sure that's the best example. On that timescale, I think you may find that Britain has collapsed quite a bit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_empire#Decolonisation_and_decline_.281945.E2.80.931997.29

A persistent lie

[SmallFurryCreature]

Taxes on cars and petrol do not COVER the costs or roads. Not even close. Roads are expensive. The car is NOT a milk cow as many believe, the car is in fact heavily subsidized from general taxes.

Just look at the public figures for the relevant department in your country. X + Y income from fuel and road taxes. Z expenditure. If Z is higher, then cars don't pay for roads, tax payers do. But everyone needs roads so that is okay. Just stop bleating how your fuel tax pays for everything, it doesn't.

Except this

[SmallFurryCreature]

When the Germans got a list of tax-evaders, they prosecuted them. When the Greeks got a list of tax-evaders, they prosecuted the publisher of the list.

The Greeks have since they joined the EU never contributed a single dime, they have ALWAYS been a drain and now they want even more money. They should NEVER have been let into the EU, in fact the EU should have stopped north of France. The Benelux and maybe Germany and the Scandinavian countries, they share a common culture, the protestant work ethic. It is no surprise that the problems are with ALL the southern EU nations and the red headed catholics, the Irish.

There is a gigantic difference in culture you just can't cross with ideals.