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EFF Wants Ubuntu To Disable Online Search By Default

Posted by Soulskill on from the just-works-vs.-just-works-correctly dept.

sfcrazy writes "Ubuntu 12.10 met with some controversy before and after its launch about the inclusion of Amazon product listings alongside local search results. Now, the Electronic Frontier Foundation has raised concerns around data leaks and Amazon Ads. The EFF has asked Canonical to update Ubuntu so it disables 'Include online search results' by default. 'Users should be able to install Ubuntu and immediately start using it without having to worry about leaking search queries or sending potentially private information to third party companies. Since many users might find this feature useful, consider displaying a dialog the first time a user logs in that asks if they would like to opt-in.'"

124 comments

  1. Still, the default should be a conservative "F NO" by e065c8515d206cb0e190 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    cf title

  2. Good Advice by ohnocitizen · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Providing users with a clear, easy to change choice up front ought to be the new standard. Maybe some users will want to see sponsored search results (advertising) when they search for photos they took on their vacation to Scotland. Others may prefer to just see the photos they are looking for. Either way, letting the user choose and being honest about what they are choosing, rather than simply having sponsored results appear in a local search, is a much better user experience.

    1. Re:Good Advice by RanCossack · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I'm not sure of the exact term for it, but your example assumes the user is looking for photos of Scotland that they took and have stored on their local drive. What if they want to search for Scotland on the internet? Maybe someone else said something about Scotland, so they type in "Scotland" to look it up on Wikipedia, or to see image results for Scotland from Google. Or, more relevant to the shopping lens, maybe they typed in "kilts" because they want to buy one, not search for pictures of kilts on their local drive -- or to search for an app named "kilt", which is how the original feature worked.

      I think that if Ubuntu had debuted Unity with web searches built in to the lens thing, people wouldn't be nearly as surprised and even outraged. It's the change from a purely local search (albeit one with several modules) to one that includes results from Amazon that's made it shocking. Nobody is protesting amazon being included in the search bar in Firefox, for example.

      Personally, I'd prefer it if there was a toggle for internet searches in the search bar, down where the privacy notice is now, and add way more useful lenses like the wikipedia one. I'd actually use that.

    2. Re:Good Advice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually the Video lens in 12.04 has internet search for video that checks Youtube, Amazon, and some other video hosting sites that can filtered by selection.

    3. Re:Good Advice by Belial6 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Nobody protests Amazon being included in the search bar in Firefox because nobody uses Firefox to search for local data. Local and remote searching should have a good clear line between them. It should take an active effort on the users part to merge them.

    4. Re:Good Advice by mounthood · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If Canonical had asked "Support Ubuntu by including Amazon searches?" they could have kept the money and the goodwill.

      --
      tomorrow who's gonna fuss
    5. Re:Good Advice by Noughmad · · Score: 1

      Nobody protests Amazon being included in the search bar in Firefox because nobody uses Firefox to search for local data. Local and remote searching should have a good clear line between them. It should take an active effort on the users part to merge them.

      Is there any reason for this except "this is how we've always done it"?

      --
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    6. Re:Good Advice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, good, nag users about whether they want to see ads or not. Classy way to be shitty.

    7. Re:Good Advice by Belial6 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Of course there is. Having everything you search on submitted to every external site that you do business with is bad. Whether you are looking for local files concerning your birthday, the erotic letter your wife wrote you, or that letter you wrote to the GBLT suicide hotline, it is none of Amazon's business. Ubuntu tapping your searches for Amazon is not significantly different than if ATT tapped your phone line for Amazon.

    8. Re:Good Advice by pswPhD · · Score: 1

      I think the problem for Canonical would be that Amazon would pay them more money for "default on" local ad searches, and they do need money for paying (at least some) developers, and for servers and other stuff.

      I'll be honest here and say I don't see a problem with it- it is open source and can be easily removed, unlike apps on some mobile operating systems added by the telecoms companies.
      Ultimately the money must come from somewhere. For Suse (my main OS) and redhat it mainly comes from server side support contracts; for Canonical it gets some from advertising.

    9. Re:Good Advice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the problem for Canonical would be that Amazon would pay them more money for "default on" local ad searches, and they do need money for paying (at least some) developers, and for servers and other stuff.

      Mark Shuttleworth is a millionare, and was long before he founded Ubuntu.

      He started Thawte, and sold it to VeriSign, making a half billion profit on it.
      He started a venture capital company called HBD.

      While he is no longer CEO of the Ubuntu foundation, he still has huge ties with the company regarding financing it, and left them quite well off when he did leave.

      While of course the only goal of any company, is to make more and more money, one can't say they need money - they have plenty. This is just a grab for even more, at the expense of the foundations original ideals.

    10. Re:Good Advice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Is there any reason for this except "this is how we've always done it"?

      I'm surprised you even need to ask this. You seem really out of touch.

      Online searches leak private information. Online search inclusion drastically lowers the quality of local searches in large part because online searches are polluted with "shopping information" and local searches are never about shopping. Online searches are usually slower than local searches, Online searches can cause huge delays if the machine is off-line. Online searches contain unsolicited advertising (= propaganda).

      In summary there is a vast difference in quality to me between my information and pushed information.

    11. Re:Good Advice by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Online searches are usually slower than local searches

      Are you kidding me?

      With an online search, there are servers waiting to perform my search and are optimized to do it. Google throws me 10 results in well under a second.
      My local machine is not optimized to do searches of local content, nor do I want it to dedicate the kind of RAM it takes to do fast local searches. My local machine takes longer than a Google search just to get a a set of uncached icons onto the screen because its got to hit the platter.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    12. Re:Good Advice by LingNoi · · Score: 1

      Canonical is a privately held company. It has no legal obligation to "make more money" as you put it. Where you see this as a money grab others are seeing it as a convenient feature.

    13. Re:Good Advice by hairyfeet · · Score: 0

      That won't happen because of one single fact...Canonical needs the money. I mean look at their track record since Shuttleworth said he wouldn't sink more money into Canonical, its been a desperate throwing ideas at the wall hoping to find a way to keep the company afloat. Ubuntu Netbook Edition, Ubuntu Server (remember when Shuttleworth said that Ubuntu "was gonna be for desktops and not servers"? Boy that tune changed quick) Ubuntu selling MP3s through Amazon and now Amazon search.

      But I predict Canonical will be joining that long list, Corel and Xandros and Linspire and Mandriva and more I can't even remember off hand, that tried to make a living off of desktop Linux and failed. there is simply no money in Linux desktops and it costs a LOT of money to create and improve Ubuntu so...well you get what you have now, begging on the download page and Amazon search. So long Canonical, it was a nice idea, too bad it just didn't work out..

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    14. Re:Good Advice by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Question: If Canonical announced tomorrow "We are going broke, either we have the Amazon search or we close our doors" which would you choose? Frankly most of the improvements on usability on the desktop can be traced back to Canonical and like it or not if they go under there is nobody lining up to take their place.All the major corps are spending their budgets on SERVER improvements and frankly couldn't give a rat's ass about the desktop...after all their locked down Windows desktops work just fine for them.

      So what do you choose? That is what it ultimately comes down to as TINSTAAFL and somebody has to sink those millions into the desktop if you want it to go anywhere...or would you prefer going back to "Bob's Distro" where its just the same packages with a new theme and a couple of little things switched around, like 2/3rds of the ones on distrowatch?

      --
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    15. Re:Good Advice by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      If Canonical announced tomorrow "We are going broke, either we have the Amazon search or we close our doors" which would you choose?

      Buh-bye, Canonical. I will slightly miss your driver integration.

      Frankly most of the improvements on usability on the desktop can be traced back to Canonical

      Citation needed. There was a working desktop before they were around, and the only thing I have now that I didn't have before them is more eye candy, at the expense of functionality like expecting my computer to run OpenGL programs correctly.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    16. Re:Good Advice by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Question: If Canonical announced tomorrow "We are going broke, either we have the Amazon search or we close our doors" which would you choose?

      Close the fucking doors! Canonical isn't the only one providing distros.

      Frankly most of the improvements on usability on the desktop can be traced back to Canonical

      Such as? Unity? haven't tried it but I heard it sucked. Gnome improvements? I never liked Gnome. I'm running kubuntu, but if Canonical wnt out of business I'd just switch back to Mandriva. So what useability improvements has Canonical made? Mandiva's installation and setup were more useable back when mandriva was still Mandrake than Ubuntu is now.

      That is what it ultimately comes down to as TINSTAAFL and somebody has to sink those millions into the desktop if you want it to go anywhere...or would you prefer going back to "Bob's Distro" where its just the same packages with a new theme and a couple of little things switched around, like 2/3rds of the ones on distrowatch?

      You grossly overestimate Canonical's contributions. Most improvements are in fact from Bob, who wants a feature and just writes it and releases it.

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    17. Re:Good Advice by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Yeah Bob writes a feature, that fucks up previous releases, breaks shit left and right, and when you point this out? You'll get told "fix it yourself".

      There is a REASON why the ONLY time Linux gained shit was when Google just took the whole damned thing away from the devs, because it is like herding a bunch of cats. Hell look at the bullshit they've pulled the past 5 years, the fucking trainwreck that is Pulse, and of course the bizarro devs of the DEs "Quick, things am stable and people am happy, this not good! We must throw out ALL that works and make it a buggy mess, then people am miserable and I look am smart! Aren't I am great?"

      Mark my words, Canonical dead in 2, and Linux can go back to being the hobbyist desktop for ubernerds, MSFT could put out Windows Goatse and people will put up with it because it'll be better than dealing with the arrogant asshole devs. Hell at least if enough of us refuse to buy Windows it bombs and they have to listen and fire the jokers that made the shitty versions...tell me friend, how do we fire Torvalds? How do we fire the guys that make the DEs, and the shitpile that is Pulse? Oh that's right, you don't pay for it so they don't owe you shit, take it and GTFO because they don't give a crap WHAT you think...yeah, good luck with that. Its only been 20 damned years and with the exception of the little buzz Canonical brought has gone exactly NOWHERE.

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      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    18. Re:Good Advice by stephanruby · · Score: 1

      I completely agree with the EFF, but I hope they're not suggesting a modal dialog. Modal dialogs get in the way. Give us a way to turn on internet search one time only, or give us a way to turn it on by default, but (aside from placing it in the control panel) ask us about that particular setting when we've just made an unsuccessful query.

    19. Re:Good Advice by museumpeace · · Score: 1

      Bob, my friend, why do you never think anybody should pay a nickle for anything? We can't all code as well as you!

      --
      SLASHDOT: news for people who can't concentrate on work or have no life at all and got tired of yelling back at the TV.
    20. Re:Good Advice by jgrahn · · Score: 1

      Question: If Canonical announced tomorrow "We are going broke, either we have the Amazon search or we close our doors" which would you choose? Frankly most of the improvements on usability on the desktop can be traced back to Canonical and like it or not if they go under there is nobody lining up to take their place.

      IMO the Unix "desktop" was good enough for average users in 1992 or so, so I'd choose a world without Canonical. I don't quite understand what these usability features *are*, anyway. I have to use Windows at work, and see nothing remarkably usable there. Keymap switching is nice, but everything else is comparable with my plain X11 desktop.

      Of course, now someone will name me "part of the problem", mutter things about "the year of the Linux desktop" and so on ...

    21. Re:Good Advice by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1

      Is there any reason for this except "this is how we've always done it"?

      Yes. Privacy!

    22. Re:Good Advice by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Yeah Bob writes a feature, that fucks up previous releases, breaks shit left and right, and when you point this out? You'll get told "fix it yourself".

      You submit a bug report and reinstall the previous version. Simple. A housecat could do it.

      There is a REASON why the ONLY time Linux gained shit was when Google just took the whole damned thing away from the devs

      If by "shit" you mean "market share," that's one of the biggest reasons why Linux isn't going to dominate the desktop. People not onlty don't know that Linux is a free OS that's superior to Windows, they've never even heard of it.

      MSFT could put out Windows Goatse and people will put up with it because it'll be better than dealing with the arrogant asshole devs.

      They'll put up with it because they don't know they have a choice. As to the "arrogant asshole devs", you expect someone you're verbally assaulting to help you? Really?

      Hell at least if enough of us refuse to buy Windows

      Millions of copies of Windows are bought by OEMs, Millions of Windows licenses are bought by enterprise customers, and neither of these groups are likely to stop. Only a handful of computer hobbyists (mostly gamers) buy a Windows boxed set.

      how do we fire Torvalds?

      Why would you want to? If he were doing a shitty job there would be far fewer, if any, people installing Linux. Now, tell me, how do we fire Ballmer?

      How do we fire the guys that make the DEs, and the shitpile that is Pulse?

      You answered your own question -- don't use Pulse.

      GTFO because they don't give a crap WHAT you think

      Which is different from Microsoft how? Look at how W8 has been trashed by almost everyone who's used it, yet it's still going to be installed on every new damned Acer, HP, and Dell computer sold, even though nobody wants it.

      Its only been 20 damned years

      And Linux, despite being ten years younger than Windows, has more features and is more stable and secure than Windows, despite the tons of money being shoveled into Windows.

      Back to market share, if I bought a Zune and was happy with it, why should I care how many other people have bought it? Market share is meaningless to anyone who doesn't own stock in a company; at least, anyone with a brain.

      --
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    23. Re:Good Advice by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      If by "superior" you mean BROKEN then we are in agreement. Please enjoy this list of show stopping bugs and then compare it to the same list from THREE YEARS AGO... notice how many are still on there? And your own "fix it" does NOT work, as the previous version requires kernel foo 3.2 and the distros are now on bar 4.2...thanks again to the totally fucked up way Linus and the devs tied every damned thing to the kernel...great job guys.

      Meanwhile the rest of us can run brand new and decade old software, hell you can even run Vista drivers on 7,and it all "just works". Can YOU do that? Nope because the fundamental design is BROKEN, and Linus knows it and really doesn't care. He is making money off it, he can do whatever he wants, so he really doesn't care. The mistake Canonical made was using Linux at all, they should have went BSD like Apple did to where they could maintain some control. Instead they dove into the monkey house and got poo flung on them...yeah, can't say I'm surprised they will join Corel, and Xandros, and Linspire, Linus built an OS that is now devoted to servers and as a desktop? Sorry but it sucks, it really does.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    24. Re:Good Advice by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Please enjoy this list of show stopping bugs

      You cannot access the following Web address:
      http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.current.html

      The site you requested is blocked under the following categories: Personal Pages

      Firewalled off here, but if all you can link to is a personal page, your argument is pretty damned weak. I'll have a look at it when I get home, but I've run across no "show stoppers".

      Meanwhile the rest of us can run brand new and decade old software, hell you can even run Vista drivers on 7,and it all "just works". Can YOU do that?

      Not only can, but do. By superior I mean more hardware-fault tolerant; flacky hardware makes Windows flaky, Linux purrs along until the hardware breaks completely. I mean having more features -- when I decide to shut my Linux box down, it comes up with all the open apps and documents reopened. You can't do that in Windows, and with its necessity of being rebooted with every patch (unlike Linux) it really needs this missing feature.

      Linux can use movies and animation for wallpaper. Windows can't.

      Linux can "remember" a default log-in password. Windows can't without a registry hack.

      Linux is compatible with Unix, Mac, BSD. Windows is compatible with nothing -- I'd call that defective by design, because MS doesn't want it to be compatible; they want to hold on to their desktop monopoly and Windows monoculture.

      XP gets EOL this year. Meanwhile, the old Mandrake is still secure.

      Your FUD is bullshit, but I understand why Linux threatens you: you earn your money from Windows' poor designs and ease of infection. I might, too, if I was in your place, but I earn no money when I fix Windows woes for folks.

      --
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    25. Re:Good Advice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What, did your other accounts not get any mod points? I don't see a single +5 here, hairy.

    26. Re:Good Advice by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Its not a personal page, its simply a list, with links, to truly show stopping bugs, bugs that go back YEARS and have not been fixed.

      But if you want to ignore evidence go right ahead, it won't be any different than how the OEMs and pretty much everyone else ignores Linux. Its been free for 20+ years, yet you see its numbers going nowhere, and no Android is NOT Linux because if you are gonna count that then you might as well say that Apple is a FOSS OS since it uses a BSD kernel. Google controls Android, you have no say, they don't accept submissions, they own the OS.

      But if you want to know why Linux goes nowhere there is the list, you can follow the links and see over 200! show stopping bugs, not rare stuff either, serious problems with all three major graphics systems, wireless, sound, the list is huge. Linus refuses to admit there are problems, refuses to change, when even a Red Hat dev says the current system is broken which is of course why Dell hides Linux on the back pages, tries to warn users away, and has to run their own repo just to keep the fricking updates from crapping on the drivers. Great job there guys, can't even update the system without breaking drivers.

      --
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    27. Re:Good Advice by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      From your G+ link: " The typical update latency for an app is weeks for security fixes (sometimes months) and months (sometimes years) for major features."

      Yet doesn't list a single one. The he goes on to say "What did the (mostly closed source) competition do? It went into the exact opposite direction"

      WTF? This is a fairy tale. The guy is either an apple fanboy or an MS shill. Don' tbelieve everything you read!

      The other link is almost as bad. "The kernel cannot recover from video, sound and network drivers' crashes." Of course not; the kernel doesn't crash, and those processes can be restarted without closing anything but those processes.

      All I can say is it works for me.

      Android is linux BASED, just as Apple is BSD based. Linux is the kernel, Red Hat and Ubuntu are full OSes.

      I've said before, if someone is happy with Windows there is no reason for them to switch.

      --
      Free Martian Whores!
  3. Windows 8 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Windows 8 interface formerly known as Metro is leaking local searches like a mofo also.
    Why should every thing i search locally be shared with the maker of every service and app I subscribe to?
    It's batshit insane IMO but at this stage to be expected from the likes of Microsoft, Apple, Google, but Ubuntu?!?!?!!!!!!

    Me: "makes me sick motherfucker, how far we done fell"
    Shuttleworth: *ahhhhhhhauccccccccccck *Phlew!

    http://youtu.be/1wmgghlEagA?t=3m36s

    1. Re:Windows 8 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It does? You must be using a different version of Windows 8 than I am because my version only searches the currently selected app in the sidebar. I wish it had a smarter search feature.

    2. Re:Windows 8 by KreAture · · Score: 1
      They have lost their virginity.

      Now expect them to become slutty overnight.

  4. Honestly by mikeken · · Score: 1

    This is how it should have been in the first place. As a user of Ubuntu when I do decide to install 12.10 I would like to be greeted with the option to opt-in rather than having the ability to "opt-out" by changing settings after the install. Personally, I will opt-in just to be able to support Ubuntu in even the smallest way.

  5. I think you misspelled "everybody" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Everybody wants Ubuntu to disable online search.

  6. Re:Hmmm by Synerg1y · · Score: 1

    The problem is users using the search to try and find something local & then getting a bunch of amazon results alongside their files. Not very Linux like at all.

  7. Re:Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I would expect most Linux users to know that and make an informed decision.

    Yeah. To turn it off.

  8. Re:Hmmm by mikeken · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "...but I would expect most Linux users to know that and make an informed decision." Typically true, but it should make a difference that Ubuntu isn't targeting the average Linux user (IMHO). They are targeting everyday users as well by trying to make their interface as easy to use as possible.

  9. Useless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Every time I search for "tentacle rape furry herm hentai" I get zero results from Amazon anyway.

    1. Re:Useless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your search "tentacle rape furry herm hentai" did not match any products.

      So true.

    2. Re:Useless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Remove your furry herms and Amazon will provide.

    3. Re:Useless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's because you misspelled "Futanari".

    4. Re:Useless by c · · Score: 5, Informative

      > Every time I search for "tentacle rape furry herm hentai" I get
      > zero results from Amazon anyway.

      Try amazon.jp...

      Ah... I wish I was joking.

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    5. Re:Useless by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I always knew there was something creepy about Dragon Quest.

      --
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    6. Re:Useless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tentacle Fuck Bundle only ¥300

    7. Re:Useless by c · · Score: 1

      Wow. You know you went to a weird place when "Tentacle Fuck Bundle only ¥300" is an on-topic reply to anything you wrote...

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  10. Re:Hmmm by dreamchaser · · Score: 1

    "...but I would expect most Linux users to know that and make an informed decision."

    Typically true, but it should make a difference that Ubuntu isn't targeting the average Linux user (IMHO). They are targeting everyday users as well by trying to make their interface as easy to use as possible.

    As much as I'd like to think otherwise, let's be realistic. Very, very few 'everyday users' are installing Linux. They'll use what they get on their Mac or PC.

  11. So they're going to ask Microsoft next right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As the xbox's new search will integrate the web search too.

  12. Re:Hmmm by kthreadd · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Since when is Ubuntu about Linux?

  13. Hope this works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I hope the EFF keeps up the pressure on Canonical on this. If people want to have on-line search, that's fine, but it should not have been the default. Having a checkbox in the Dash labeled "Enable on-line search" would be fine. Considering how much personal data could be transmitted to third parties there is no reason for this feature to be enabled by default Canonical isn't listening to their users on this one and have been taking a hard line against bug reports against this new feature. Having the EFF on the side of the users might get the attention of the developers.

  14. It all started with Zuckerberg... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...saying that privacy is so vintage.

    Fact is that if you want to market to the biggest segment of users, you (Canonical) have to forget all these privacy and security concepts.
    See what Windows 8 is doing on the same level (user [un-]awareness of any privacy at all), and get how dumb the ecosystem is becoming.
    Either accept it or take popcorns and watch the fireworks from outside.
    It does not matter how much slashdotters like it or not, the PC/laptop/tablet experience is going to be (even more) a mass product with all pros and cons.

  15. Someone has to pay by bjourne · · Score: 2, Informative

    Developing a Linux distro isn't cheap. Even if they are mostly just assembling free software components, it still costs money to create a reasonably polished user experience. Canonical seem like a decent enough company and have sponsored lots of conferences for example. Back in the day you could request install cd:s from them which they sent you free of charge so that you could give to friends and family. So why not be nice back and let them have some small Amazon affiliate income? If that's what it takes to keep Ubuntu running, it's fine by me.

    --
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    1. Re:Someone has to pay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know you can donate to them, right?

    2. Re:Someone has to pay by WaffleMonster · · Score: 3, Interesting

      So why not be nice back and let them have some small Amazon affiliate income? If that's what it takes to keep Ubuntu running, it's fine by me.

      I totally agree.

      Also Maintaining bash is a lot of work, if sending all ur commands to a small Amazon affiliate is what it takes to keep bash up to date, its fine by me.

    3. Re:Someone has to pay by chargersfan420 · · Score: 1

      I completely disagree. It's not the users' concern where Canonical gets their money. If they offer their distro for free, it is their own problem how they get their funding. If users don't like their product, there are many, many other free distros to choose from.

      Besides, they were doing just fine on their previous funding models, which is what other companies like Red Hat do, right? Why do they need more money? Is the support license money well running dry these days? And if that is the case, whose fault is that?

    4. Re:Someone has to pay by metalmonkey · · Score: 1

      Is the EEF jumping on every other manufacture who SELL Windows with similar crapware?
      With a free OS it's not so much to for them to ask for some ad revenue, which can be turned off.

  16. Re:Hmmm by mikeken · · Score: 1

    Right, and I understand that. I'm just saying that Ubuntu is trying to target the everyday user, I don't know if it is successful or not.

  17. Re:Hmmm by mynamestolen · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Linux is being used more and more by "unsophisticated" users like me and the group of elderly people I've helped by installing Lubuntu on their tired old computers. Please don't make assumptions for us about this sort of thing. As I understand it, good programmers (and hopefully that included people who make this decision, shouldn't make such assumptions.

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  18. Re:Hmmm by techno-vampire · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've always felt that Ubuntu is mostly targeting "Windows refugees," that is, people who want to get away from Windows for one reason or another, but don't want to buy a Mac. Unlike some (most?) Linux distros, Ubuntu tries to make everything as easy as possible for the new user including giving it a default look and feel as close to Windows as it can manage. If, as I've seen mentioned elsewhere, Windows 8 is including on-line searches by default, it makes sense for Ubuntu to do the same on the assumption that this is what most of their newest users expect. I'm not saying that this is the right decision, but then, I don't use Ubuntu so I'm not part of their target market.

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  19. Re:Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    How about users just get a clue? Online search is a feature, not a bug. Yes it can 'leak' data, but I would expect most Linux users to know that and make an informed decision.

    I would have to say it depends on the specifics of how it is implemented. For example when IE moved from a separate search box to demanding everything be done from a single URL bar there were some keyboard shortcuts that went with.

    ctrl-e is supposed to send what you type to your search provider.

    ctrl-l is supposed to be a URL but if you don't fully qualify with http it will *still* leak that to your search provider as well. I still find myself accidently doing it even though I know better.

    The one ambiguous field is intentionally structured and designed to leak data like a sieve.

    If ubuntu is doing anything like this then I think it is fair for EFF to call them out on it. If it is just a case of a dedicated search field that does nothing else but leak data necessary to complete user request then the critisim is not warranted.

    Having no experience with the feature in question I will withold judgement.

  20. Here's a Thought: by CanHasDIY · · Score: 0

    How about (and I know I'm getting really abstract here, try to stay with me), just a thought... How about you fucking ask us on installation, instead of everyone (and I mean EVERY-FUCKING-ONE, EFF included) acting like we're too gorram stupid to make that decision for ourselves?

    Yea, I know - what a far-fetched concept, huh?

    --
    An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    1. Re:Here's a Thought: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      OMG that's so innovative. Did you think up that bright idea yourself, or maybe WAS IT IN THE FUCKING SUMMARY?

    2. Re:Here's a Thought: by theripper · · Score: 1

      ...Since many users might find this feature useful, consider displaying a dialog the first time a user logs in that asks if they would like to opt-in.'

      How is this different than the suggestion in the summary to default to no and ask the first time you log in?

    3. Re:Here's a Thought: by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      ...Since many users might find this feature useful, consider displaying a dialog the first time a user logs in that asks if they would like to opt-in.'

      How is this different than the suggestion in the summary to default to no and ask the first time you log in?

      It's different in that first login comes after the installation process.

      Not that it's a bad idea - I must've missed that sentence when skimming the summary... rant partially retracted.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    4. Re:Here's a Thought: by theripper · · Score: 1

      I wasn't trying to ask for the literal difference...

      That said, I prefer the idea of defaulting things like this to something sane and asking you on login if you want to opt-in versus putting more options in the installation process.

  21. EFF's suggestions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    What EFF Wants From Ubuntu

    Ubuntu is the third most popular desktop operating system, and it's the most popular free software one. Many of EFF's employees run Ubuntu on their own computers. Here is what we would like to see from future versions of Ubuntu.

            Disable "Include online search results" by default. Users should be able to install Ubuntu and immediately start using it without having to worry about leaking search queries or sending potentially private information to third party companies. Since many users might find this feature useful, consider displaying a dialog the first time a user logs in that asks if they would like to opt-in.

            Explain in detail what you do with search queries and IP addresses, how long you store them, and in what circumstances you give them to third parties.

            Make the Search Results tab of the Privacy settings let users toggle on and off specific online search results. Some users might want Amazon products in their search results, but never anything from Facebook.

            We love that Ubuntu is bold enough to break new ground and compete directly with the large proprietary operating systems, but please make sure that you respect your users' privacy and security while you're doing it. Windows and Mac users are used to having their data sent to third parties without their express consent by software companies that are trying to maximize profits for their shareholders. Let's make sure Ubuntu, like the GNU/Linux operating system at its heart, remains an exception to this.

    Really if Ubuntu had implemented these suggestions to begin with, they could have avoided this controversy.

    1. Re:EFF's suggestions by mattr · · Score: 1

      As a Mac user I can't say I'm used to that. I monitor all firewall requests from my machine. What I can't stand is not knowing what it means to allow Flash or MS Word to autoupdate.

    2. Re:EFF's suggestions by LingNoi · · Score: 2

      Ubuntu is popular, people would find some way to bitch about it regardless.

  22. Re:Still, the default should be a conservative "F by morcego · · Score: 1

    There should be NO default.
    Show a dialog with no default option, and force the use to choose. No "Next->Next->Finish".

    --
    morcego
  23. Re:Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you want Linux to have mainstream success, assume your users know nothing about it, which is true for the people you want to start using it.

  24. Re:Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ubuntu is the biggest, most-used linux desktop-flavor around.
    Ubuntu-users ARE average linux users.

  25. Re:Hmmm by Gaygirlie · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How about users just get a clue? Online search is a feature, not a bug.

    Not when you're trying to search locally.

  26. Re:Hmmm by Sable+Drakon · · Score: 2

    Ubuntu doesn't look a whole lot like Windows. If you're looking for a distro that does look very much like Windows, take a look at Mint. If it wasn't for the icons and a few minor retails, they're very similar.

    --
    The Amarri pray for god, the Caldari pray for profit. the Gallente pray for peace, but the Minmatar pray their ships hol
  27. Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the default for windows is to search online too. wheres the EFF on that issue? just because it searches all of online and not just amazon its ok? no. that sounds fucking stupid.

    i'm guessing alot of ubuntu users are by default much more familiar with what they are doing. but windows users... hell... if its default on install it stays that way forever most likely.

    so when can i expect to hear about the EFF slamming microsoft over doing the EXACT SAME THING....

    1. Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      From TFA:

      "Windows and Mac users are used to having their data sent to third parties without their express consent by software companies that are trying to maximize profits for their shareholders."

      C'mon, this is the EFF. Of course they would be critical of Microsoft, Apple, Google, et al. for leaking, or downright giving up users' data to third party entities. The article is hardly a slam, though...

  28. Re:Hmmm by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Users should get a clue? What a charming view on users - I hope you're not a developer.

    As a long-term Ubuntu user I have to say that I really want a clear separation between online search and local search. The last thing I want to see when searching through my files is an advertisement by some company. Not even as an opt-in.

    (Apart from that general point, it should also be mentioned that Amazon sucks for a variety of good reasons.)

  29. Re:Hmmm by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

    Ubuntu doesn't look a whole lot like Windows.

    I wouldn't know. I've never used any version of Windows more recent than XP (and only use it to play a few games on at a club I belong to) and I don't use Ubuntu. I do, however, do support for my sister who used Ubuntu until she got tired of fighting with the Unity DE and switched to Xubuntu. As I wrote, that was my impression of Ubuntu and I won't insist on it if you feel like disagreeing.

    --
    Good, inexpensive web hosting
  30. Re:Still, the default should be a conservative "F by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why force the users to choose? That's awful.

    The EFF kind of has a point, particularly regarding the fact that anybody can intercept the returned images, which are of course highly correlated to your query terms. If that can't be fixed, then default to no and either:

    * Have your dialog, but *do* make it possible to Next->Next->Finish. The key is that Next->Next->Finish leaves you in a secure and private state.
    * Have no dialog, and the first couple times you search have an unobtrusive hint on how you could add online search.

  31. Re:Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I believe you'll find Mint took over the top spot when Ubuntu began pushing Unity on everyone.

  32. Re:Hmmm by Sable+Drakon · · Score: 1

    If you're looking at cosmetics alone, Unity looks more like MacOS X than it does Windows. But feel free to compare screenshots of Ubuntu 12.10, Mint 13, and Windows XP or Vista or 7. You'll see Mint impersonating Windows far more than Ubuntu does.

    --
    The Amarri pray for god, the Caldari pray for profit. the Gallente pray for peace, but the Minmatar pray their ships hol
  33. Re:Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Online search enabled by default is the showstopper bug, how about you get a clue.

  34. Not even Microsoft or Apple by Exitar · · Score: 1

    could put so much evil in their OS!

    1. Re:Not even Microsoft or Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amen to that! I cannot believe the unconscionable, tragic decision these corrupt, baby-killing corporate-owned, slimy nazis have done. Just watch, in six months nobody will be using Ubuntu on the off chance Amazon may return a useful result.

  35. Re:Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Very nice response. Much nicer than deserved. First off, the snarky "How about users just get a clue? Online search is a feature, not a bug. Yes it can 'leak' data, but I would expect most Linux users to know that and make an informed decision" is typically what I expect from some of the assholes who have been using Linux. They are socially retarded pinheads who's only accomplishment in life was staying up late staining their teeth with Cheetos and Jolt cola figuring out how to use a free distro because they were too poor to buy a copy of Windows or good hardware to run it. They somehow feel superior to others who could give a rat's ass less about which OS they use. "Sophistication" has nothing to do with the OS you use. Kinda like people who buy luxury cars thinking it gives them class. What's that expression about a silk purse? I have been on the fringe of the Linux community since RHL 3 (not RHEL 3) and received nothing but hate and discontent when I was learning. "Read the fucking manual" was all I got. You guys know who you are...

    Most advanced OS users know how to configure their OS securely. Some don't. The default inclusion of online search is wrong. You are correct in stating the people who make decisions in what goes in to the code should not make that assumption. The default inclusion of potentially vulnerable software or the default inclusion of features that can be exploited is negligent, plain and simple. MS was wrong in the Windows 2000/IIS debacle and look at the shit storm that started.

    My apologies to the Linux users who have tried to make a difference- you are not socially retarded pinheads.

  36. Re:Let's have a popup for every configurable optio by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah, how dare users actually get a choice! BURN THE HERETICAL EFF!!!

  37. Eclipse - the IDE not the movie by ChicoLance · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Yes, this inclusion into the Dash has gone a bit to far.

    I upgraded a machine over the weekend to 12.10, and after a couple of installs of my various packages I like, I went to Unity Dash to search for "Eclipse" to see if I'd already installed the Java IDE or not.

    Instead of simply saying "no", it instead gave me returns for all sorts of Twilight movies and books. Amazon probably has it on my wish list already.

    I'll search Amazon when I want to search Amazon. When Dash is now the way to launch programs on my box instead of menus, I want it to launch programs.

        --Lance

    1. Re:Eclipse - the IDE not the movie by zigfreed · · Score: 1

      This is my experience with dash in 12.10 as well. By default it crams as much useless information in as possible. It posts magazines from the Ubuntu software center before it posts the programs those magazines reference.

      I don't mind it searching Amazon, however posting Amazon searches in full view unless entirely disabled is moronic.

    2. Re:Eclipse - the IDE not the movie by luther349 · · Score: 1

      try the new builds of enlightenment it pretty much has the best of everything without messing it up or eating up the entire system.

  38. (N)eubuntu by Penurious+Penguin · · Score: 1

    Welcome to Ubuntu: An experimental and totally free Neuro-Marketing Neo-Linux Neon Skinner-Box that rivals DARPA while remaining cute enough for children -- and irresistible to moths.
    With (N)eubuntu, anyone can contribute to open-source.
    Install now to begin clicking bubbles and sharing your information with other interesting entities right away!
    Once you have the (N)eubuntu Experience©, you'll wonder why the hell you ever considered Linux!

    --
    Forward! -- Emperor Norton, 2012
  39. Aol by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The 90's called. They want you to give their AOL CD's back and stop writing Ubuntu on them...

  40. Re:Hmmm by sunderland56 · · Score: 1

    The problem is users using the search to try and find something local

    The problem is a UI that co-mixes local searches with internet searches.

    If you use a normal, non-UI command like 'find' to do local searches, there is no issue.

  41. Hey Mark, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    get ready for some *nal, s*cker...

  42. I hope Canonical pays some attention to this story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Accepting a small chunk of money from Amazon in exchange for promotion (big, shiny, opt-in dialogue with a "remind me later" option) will keep the respect and support of quite a lot of the community.

    Accepting a large chunk of money to allow Amazon to effectively spy on the majority of users (desktop search queries sent to Amazon by default) is outright despicable and will many to actively disrecommend Ubuntu.

  43. Amazon+Ubuntu? by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

    Actually I wonder how much Mark Shuttleworth would get if he sold Ubuntu to Amazon. And I wonder if he is wondering the same thing.

    --
    http://michaelsmith.id.au
  44. Re:Hmmm by Seeteufel · · Score: 1

    I guess the answer may be rather that Shuttleworth does not fund EFF operations anymore. The EFF simply jump on board of criticism directed against Canonical. That is a cheap shot. What did the EFF do to stop the Amazon business practices, or to combat their rogue software patents? What did EFF do to advance Linux software?

  45. enhancement request by MadMaverick9 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Some ubuntu users feel that this amazon search functionality should be expanded to other applications as well. For example grep search results should include amazon search results.

    https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-terminal/+bug/1055766

    1. Re:enhancement request by xded · · Score: 2
      Interesting? I feel as if several mods are suddenly hearing a wooshing sound in terror...

      Dear "root owning" overlords,
      When using grep recursively I only get local results:
      [...]
      I declare this a bug for two reasons:
      1. The output is boring.
      2. The terminal has more than 2 lines!!! It's an unefficient use of my screenspace.
      I believe the reason for this is that the grep command only searches locally for things I am actually looking for, I kind of expect the results I get from my codebase and as such it removes any sense of mystery or something new and exciting to spice up my dull geek existence. That's boring, grep -R should also search amazon, so I get more exciting results such as:
      Shark Season 1 Starring Steven Eckholdt, Nora Dunn, Patrick Fabian, et al. Amazon Instant Video to buy episodes: $1.99 to buy season: $34.99 ($1.59 per episode)
      [...]
      Please can you change the grep warez to have this feature, and just install it on my machine while I'm down the pub, after all you do "erm, have root", so it should be easy for you to do :-)
      [...]
      Sent from my Unity device, (which is why it took several glacial ages and a couple of eras to get it done)

  46. Re:Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The thing is most use don't understand the difference between searching online and and searching locally. I tried to explain to my mom the difference and she still really didn't get it. The problem is compounded by the fact that most things people have on their computer they downloaded from the Internet, so at one point they did search the Internet for the file but now they have to search their computer, it is too complicated for most people unfortunately.

  47. Re:Let's have a popup for every configurable optio by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Uhh.. the OP specifically advocated having a choice, it just may not be the one the hardcore Linux user would choose, and one that most regular internet+office users wouldn't give a shit about.

    The EFF has more interesting and important things to do than to care about a single option that's already built into a single Linux distro. I'm send monthly donations and I think the money could be better spent.

  48. Re:Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    [citation needed]

  49. Re:Hmmm by Smauler · · Score: 1

    I don't think there are many Windows refugees currently. 2000 was ok, XP was a slight improvement. Vista was a disaster* because of being installed on systems not able to cope with it. 7 was basically a success, as far as I can see. We'll wait and see with 8.

    I run Windows for games. If steam managed to switch it's catalogue to Linux now, I'd switch now. It's mostly a company problem now, and I hope Steam win, because It'll result in free operating systems in my opinion. Of course, that will be at the cost of DRM everywhere, but I've learnt to accept the less bad DRM as a part of life - I refuse to buy anything with crappy DRM.

    That being said - my current uptime is 1826 hours with Vista.

  50. Re:Hmmm by mister_playboy · · Score: 3, Informative

    He's probably referring to the fact that Mint has been getting more pageviews on DistroWatch than Ubuntu for some time now. I'm certain Ubuntu still has more actual users.

    That said, I had a friend inquire about Linux recently and I recommended Mint to them over Ubuntu because of this advertising injection. I use KDE so the Unity thing wasn't a big deal to me, but I can't excuse the ads/infomining. That's not what Linux is about.

    --
    Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law ::: Love is the law, love under will
  51. Re:I hope Canonical pays some attention to this st by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I realize this search thing is trivial to disable, but a privacy violation is a total showstopper no matter how small. The people who include something like this as default are not the people I want to produce my OS, the next time I may not notice it. End of story and bye Ubuntu.

    At least all the unity crap introduced in the recent versions won't make me miss Ubuntu as much as I would have before.

  52. Mint by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 2

    In about 3 or 4 years, Mint will eclipse Ubuntu mainly due to OSX me-too shenanigans like this. Move now; I'd recommend LMDE.

    1. Re:Mint by luther349 · · Score: 1

      i recommend bodhi with the e17 wm trust me its awesome.and nearly as light as lxde.

    2. Re:Mint by allo · · Score: 1

      try using Luninux. Its Mint for apple users.

  53. Re:Hmmm by luther349 · · Score: 1

    the move ubuntu have been making are bad at best. unity the first and now ads. lets just hope it never makes it to the a lts in its current form.

  54. Re:Hmmm by dimeglio · · Score: 1

    The EFF are the vegans of technology. A little extremist at times but healthy nontheless.

    --
    Views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the author.
  55. Re:Hmmm by helix2301 · · Score: 1

    Well firefox gets paid for search results Ubuntu is setting up for the same thing they need make money to thats how business works.

    --
    http://www.thetechnologygeek.org
  56. LINUX IS COMMUNIST! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    LINUX IS COMMUNIST STEALING all your info AND SELLING IT!!! THEY VALUE NO privacy!!11

    BILL GATES... urrrr... LINUS TORVALDS IS THE DEVIL!

  57. Once, there was a time ... by allo · · Score: 1

    when linux distros had very restrictive defaults.
    Installed firefox on windows? Cookies allowed, no warning, everything open to tracking but for easy use, too.
    Installed firefox on debian? First form you fill, you are asked "do you really want to submit data over unsecured connection?". Cookies? the default was "ask". Other insecure functions? often turned off, so using insecure functionality was opt-in.

  58. Nice hypocrisy by smooth+wombat · · Score: 1

    Apparently the EFF wants you to open your wifi to everyone and anyone because it will promote privacy (how, they never explain), but when a free operating system enables searching the internet by default, apparently that's a no no because it might leach personal information.

    Way to be a hypocrite EFF.

    --
    We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
  59. Fuck Ubuntu by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How thick-headed does one have to be to not completely grok that it is utterly uncool to send anything out of someone's computer without their explicit permission?!? Jesus Christ on a flaming crutch. It's getting completely out of hand. I can't believe browsers now either. If I mistype a domain name in the field where only URLs should go, I want a DNS error and only a DNS error, not something sent to some search engine.

  60. Re:Hmmm by mcgrew · · Score: 1

    That being said - my current uptime is 1826 hours with Vista.

    That's two and a half months, how do you get away from reboots on Patch Tuesday? Just ignore it and not update?

    I've learnt to accept the less bad DRM as a part of life

    That makes you part of the problem.

    --
    Free Martian Whores!
  61. Re:Hmmm by mcgrew · · Score: 1

    First off, the snarky "How about users just get a clue? Online search is a feature, not a bug. Yes it can 'leak' data, but I would expect most Linux users to know that and make an informed decision" isn't what I would expect from a hard-core Linux user. He's going to eschew any distro that did that.

    They are socially retarded pinheads who's only accomplishment in life was staying up late staining their teeth with Cheetos and Jolt cola figuring out how to use a free distro because they were too poor to buy a copy of Windows or good hardware to run it.

    I see your problem (besides confusing who's with whose). Ten years ago when I was learning Linux, I never got the "RTFM n00b," almost every Linux question I have posed in any forum got a useful answer, or at least an attempt at one. But you know, sneer at some "retarded pinheads who's only accomplishment in life was staying up late staining their teeth with Cheetos and Jolt cola figuring out how to use a free distro because they were too poor to buy a copy of Windows" and guess what? You're going to be told to fuck off.

    Talk about "socially retarded", lets talk about pots and kettles. It's been my experience, whether with Linux geeks or those completely ignorant of computers, that in most cases if you're polite you'll be met with politeness and helpfulness, and if you're a jerk they're not going to be nice and there's no way they're going out of their way to help you.

    But since you finally were polite in your last sentence, I'll tell you why I, personally, use Linux. It's because it has more features, is more customizable, I don't have to reboot the damned thing every time it needs a patch, if I do decide to reboot it (I usually shut it off at night if I'm not downloading anything) when it comes up, all the apps and documents that were open when I shut it down are reopened. That, and it's more stable on flaky hardware. That, and MS refuses to follow standards; CP/M died twenty years ago, what are they still using a backslash to denote different directories when everyone else has been Unix-like for a decade now? Oh, yeah, lock in. Forgot that. Probably a lot more reasons I forgot as well.

    Unless you're a gamer there's no reason except laziness (I confess, I have a W7 notebook I'm too lazy to install Linux on) to NOT install Linux. Windows simply has nothing that Linux lacks, and Linux has a lot of stuff that's been there for years that Windows lacks.

    --
    Free Martian Whores!
  62. Re:Hmmm by Seeteufel · · Score: 1

    They are opportunist lawyers with a thing for a principle or two.

  63. Opera has a similar nasty bug... by Sanians · · Score: 1

    Opera has a similar nasty bug... If you middle-click almost anywhere within the browser window, it likes to take the last bit of text you highlighted with your mouse and send it to Google. It's wonderful when you're simply trying to middle-click a link to open it in a new tab, but you're off by a pixel and so instead Opera sends some secret text you didn't want anyone else to see to Google so that it can store it forever in its database of every search query ever submitted.

    1. Re:Opera has a similar nasty bug... by MadMaverick9 · · Score: 1

      Excuse me - but you need to learn how to configure and setup your web browser.

      I have set DuckDuckGo as my default search engine in Opera.

      If you don't already have DDG (quite unlikely, but who knowsâ¦), it's even easier, actually: go to DuckDuckGo, right click on their search box (not the Opera search box, the DDG website search box) and click Create Search. Enter d for keyword (you can choose any, but that's the way DDG suggests, and that's how it is on my default Opera installation), and check use as default search engine.

      http://my.opera.com/Tamil/blog/default-search-engine

  64. My problem isn't that it's Google, but that... by Sanians · · Score: 1

    My problem isn't that it's Google, but that it's anything at all. (And I already use DuckDuckGo, BTW.)

    Pasting into the browser window isn't a good enough reason to send that data over the internet. If I paste it into the URL bar, then perhaps parse it as a URL. If I paste it into the search bar, then send it as a search query. However, Opera goes so far as to take data pasted anywhere where it otherwise wouldn't do something else, and send it to Google as a search query. I sent them a bug report about this years ago, suggesting that they only do this when it's pasted into the URL bar, but apparently they didn't think that was a very good idea.

    I did find a work-around, in that if I delete all search providers from Opera except for "find in page" then it will no longer do this. However, it's still a terrible default to have, regardless of which search provider it sends the data to, particularly considering that it's so easy to do, simply by middle-clicking on something you thought was a link but which actually isn't, or by missing a link by a pixel or two. Like I said, it'd make far more sense if I actually had to paste into the URL bar or the search bar in order to trigger this behavior -- you know, if I had to indicate that I wanted it to do this rather than it just assuming it knows what I want.

    Opera never takes my suggestions. Years ago I suggested that there be an "upload progress indicator" just like there's a "download progress indicator" so that web sites didn't have to resort to stupid javascript hacks and plugins in order to provide some feedback to users about the progress of file uploads. However, it seems no one is interested in that. Apparently the world easily figured out that giving no progress about the state of a download is a bad idea, but for uploads... Who needs to know when or even if their uploads will ever complete?

    1. Re:My problem isn't that it's Google, but that... by MadMaverick9 · · Score: 1

      My problem isn't that it's Google, but that it's anything at all.

      ok - sorry - gotcha.