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Will Microsoft Dis-Kinect Freeloading TV Viewers?

theodp writes "Just when you think the cable TV viewing experience couldn't get any worse, GeekWire reports on the Microsoft Xbox Incubation team's patent-pending Consumer Detector, which uses cameras and sensors like those in the Xbox 360 Kinect controller to monitor, count and in some cases identify the people in a room watching television, movies and other content. Should the number of viewers detected exceed the limits of a particular content license, the system would halt playback unless additional viewing rights were purchased."

50 of 478 comments (clear)

  1. Masking tape by surmak · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Over the camera should solve the problem.

    1. Re:Masking tape by JustOK · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "No one is watching. Guess I'll turn off then."

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    2. Re:Masking tape by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If it can't identify anyone, I'm sure it will say that it is unable to play the content.

      --
      Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    3. Re:Masking tape by silvershadow · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Or simply disconnect it.

    4. Re:Masking tape by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Today's my turn to watch the movie without wearing the burqa!

    5. Re:Masking tape by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Over the camera should solve the problem.

      Normal technology is designed to fail as robustly as possible. Since video input is non-essential to media playback, graceful degradation and continued operation would be trivial.

      DRM isn't normal technology. It's technology that is designed to fail as dramatically as possible. Expect any minor anomalies in the 'trusted' system state to be treated as catastrophic and absolutely incompatible with continued playback.

    6. Re:Masking tape by EdIII · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What it's absolutely incompatible with is my wallet.

      This shit is hilarious. People put up with the XBOX360 to play games. The moment scenes like this play out, people will just stop using it and go elsewhere. Laptop and Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, Piracy, whatever...

      These people that are coming up with shit like this are insane. Even the most unsophisticated consumer sheep is going to lose it the day playback stops because their friend walked in.

    7. Re:Masking tape by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Informative

      Can it identify a photograph and a real person ?

        If not, it's easily hackable...

      http://it.slashdot.org/story/12/06/18/184217/samsung-galaxy-s3-face-unlock-tricked-by-photograph

      The 'kinect' sensor package includes pretty robust(for the price) depth detection. There are also a fair number of demo applications with adequate-if-not-exactly-perfect facial expression tracking.

      It would probably add some false negatives; but the hardware capabilities are there to reject all 2D fakes, as well as weeding out 3D fakes that are inhumanly static...

    8. Re:Masking tape by dintech · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There's something very Orwellian about all of this. If content providers had their way, there would be a laser pointer on top of the Kinect with which to blind any people in the room who aren't supposed to be watching.

      1984 was about big brother government but when corporations effectively write the laws of government anyway, perhaps we don't need to make a distinction. The only difference it seems is that corporations have absolutely no pretense about looking after the people.

    9. Re:Masking tape by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Huxley, not Orwell. No one is forced to own/watch television.

    10. Re:Masking tape by 1s44c · · Score: 3, Insightful

      These people that are coming up with shit like this are insane.

      It's true, yet they keep coming up with shit like this.

      After decades abusing customers maybe Microsoft have come to the conclusion that they can do anything and people will put up with it.

    11. Re:Masking tape by vettemph · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Masking tape over the camera, Punch a hole in the tape so the camera can see the owner but not the whole room. :)

      --
      The government which is strong enough to protect you from everything is strong enough to take everything from you.
    12. Re:Masking tape by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The way that corporate media critics like Howard Kurtz have kept a blind eye to this is with the excuse that "only governments can sensor people, not corporations."

      Sorry, in the era where your only gateway to the mass audience is through companies owned by 4-5 people corporate owned media CAN censor, and even if you don't believe this it's impossible to argue that they can't have deep influence or outright set the agenda of what is discussed.

    13. Re:Masking tape by faedle · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Do you even see the irony in your own statement?

      On the one hand, you groan about "people put up with the XBOX360.." and then say "consumer sheep is going to lose it". You do realize that most 'consumer sheep' won't, in fact, "lose it", and you prove the point with your snide remark about the XBOX platform.

      This isn't going to be enforced the way you think. It's likely not going to stop playing just because somebody walked in. Where this is going to be used is for things like pay-per-view sporting events and premium content services. This is primarily here to prevent a bar (or similar venue) from buying the consumer-priced-for-home-viewing $90 wrestling fight. (typically, bars and the like pay higher prices based upon their foot traffic) And people won't lose it: they'll pony up the money like they always have. You will have a small number that will complain, but they won't complain that loudly.

    14. Re:Masking tape by Megane · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Tampering detected, TV shuts off and you're fucked.

      Fuck that, I've heard of this new show called "Outside", and you don't even need a TV to watch it. It's in super HD and it even has some sort of temperature generators, so hot stuff feels hot and cold stuff feels cold. Take that Hollywood 3-D!

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    15. Re:Masking tape by jd2112 · · Score: 5, Funny

      In Capitalist America, Television watches you!

      --
      Any insufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.
    16. Re:Masking tape by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      If it comes to the point that I have to do this just to watch a movie, I think I'll just opt out altogether and play my guitar while I watch my oscar swim around his tank.

    17. Re:Masking tape by History's+Coming+To · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Although try convincing the UK TV licensing authorities that - it's very common to get repeated threatening letters and people knocking at the door if you don't own a TV license. What if you don't own a TV? Well they don't believe that, they keep sending the threatening letters as long as you don't own the license, because (their reasoning) everybody owns a TV.

      Ironically, I also lived in a flat which did have a TV, but shared an address with a University office block. We were told we had to buy the commercial version of the license and they wouldn't sell us the household version. We stopped even trying to buy a license and heard no more on the matter.

      --
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    18. Re:Masking tape by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 4, Informative

      "Telescreens are most prominently featured in George Orwell's novel Nineteen Eighty-Four, ... They are television and security camera-like devices used by the ruling Party in Oceania to keep its subjects under constant surveillance, thus eliminating the chance of secret conspiracies against Oceania. All members of the Inner Party (upper-class) and Outer Party (middle-class) have telescreens, but the proles (lower-class) are not typically monitored as they are unimportant to the Party.

      In Smith's conversation with the shop keeper Charrington, it is mentioned that "[telescreens] are too expensive" and proles can't afford them (presumably, for Party Members purchasing them is obligatory, though this is not explicitly stated)."
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescreen

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    19. Re:Masking tape by Baloroth · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The Kinect has (and would probably use for identification anyways) an infrared camera. I doubt a photo would work on that very well. Better idea is just don't use the damned XBox for movies if it does this.

      --
      "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
    20. Re:Masking tape by Fishchip · · Score: 5, Funny

      Stop presenting sensible alternatives!

    21. Re:Masking tape by Custard+Horse · · Score: 5, Funny

      Heat the room to 36 degrees centigrade and make everyone invisible?

    22. Re:Masking tape by CanHasDIY · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Here's what I'd do:

      - set up a machine between your Xbox and router to do a packet capture

      - disconnect every other device on the network (not necessary, but will reduce background "noise" from unrelated traffic)

      - fire up the Xbox with the Kinect unhooked, and let it run for a bit, keeping an eye on the packets (I don't know much about Xbox networking, but I would guess anything transmitted outside port 80 would be suspect)

      - hook up the Kinect and look for any changes in the packet capture


      Of course, I'm fairly certain that if the Xbox phones home with the Kinect... uh, connected... it probably does it all the time, but maybe (assuming your hypothesis is correct and they're already watching you) the Kinect uses a different protocol or something.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    23. Re:Masking tape by geekbastard · · Score: 3, Informative

      Huxley, not Orwell. No one is forced to own/watch television.

      If it were Huxley all television would be provided free of charge, including all premium channels, so as to keep the working class happy and ignorant of the real goings on of the world. That is of course until we start receiving our daily ration of soma which will make all current distractions seem quaint by comparison. Given the choice, I would prefer Huxleys ignorant utopia over Orwells distopia any day. Then again I am an escapist in every sense of the word . . .

    24. Re:Masking tape by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Sorry, but I don't know of a single instance of something Google has that has stopped working because of DRM. Apple, and M$ I have. While Google may be abusing customers (opinion) they have yet to do something horrible deserving of distrust (beyond the obvious).

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    25. Re:Masking tape by History's+Coming+To · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Because (in theory at least) UK stores are legally obliged to ask for an address when selling you a TV.

      To AC above: In the first flat I mentioned, no, we didn't have a TV. When they came to the door we would refuse to let them in, as is our right, and suggested they came back with a court warrant. In the second flat (where they refused to sell us a residential licence) we did have a TV, hence we were trying to buy a licence.

      --
      Please consider this account deleted, I just can't be bothered with the spam anymore.
    26. Re:Masking tape by History's+Coming+To · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In the UK all BBC programmes are freeview and contain no commercials. This is paid for via a TV license fee of around £145 (~US$230) per-property per-year, which personally I think is worth it for the programmes the BBC put out.

      You don't need a license if you're not watching live or if you only watch DVDs etc, but to "receive live television" you have to buy one.

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      Please consider this account deleted, I just can't be bothered with the spam anymore.
    27. Re:Masking tape by ArcadeMan · · Score: 3, Funny

      If you do that, the Xbox will freak out, activate its optical camouflage and start killing everyone in the room.

    28. Re:Masking tape by History's+Coming+To · · Score: 4, Informative

      Because (and this is very intentional) the BBC is legally obliged to be completely impartial when it comes to politics. If they were funded by a tax then there would be potential leverage for whichever party is in power. By using an independently defined license fee instead means there is (in theory) less chance of undue political influence over one of the biggest media providers in the UK (and beyond).

      --
      Please consider this account deleted, I just can't be bothered with the spam anymore.
    29. Re:Masking tape by Chrisq · · Score: 4, Funny

      If you do that, the Xbox will freak out, activate its optical camouflage and start killing everyone in the room.

      Ballmer mode engaged!

  2. more copying by jbmartin6 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I am enthusiastic about Microsoft's apparent desire to increase illegal copying.

    --
    This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
    1. Re:more copying by Nyder · · Score: 5, Funny

      Of course.. Anything to give the cops 'probable cause' to knock your door down can only be a good thing.

      Cops don't need "probable cause" to knock on your door. They can, legally, knock on your door any time.

      fuck i'm an idiot, i need to learn to read better.

      --
      Be seeing you...
    2. Re:more copying by JWW · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You could consider it that.

      But its more than likely Microsoft is planning on bragging up this patent at the Movie and Cable companies in exchange for exclusive deals to play their movies.

      This patent is fucking obscene.

      If protecting the sale (sorry "licensing") of your product needs police state tools, no one should respect your right to do business at all....

  3. Why would someone buy that? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    The best way to keep this technology out of your homes is to refuse to purchase it.

  4. Just when I think MS can't get more creepy by crazyjj · · Score: 4, Funny

    I'm just surprised Sony didn't come up with it first.

    --
    What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
    1. Re:Just when I think MS can't get more creepy by mrclisdue · · Score: 4, Funny

      I'm just surprised Sony didn't come up with it first.

      Actually, Sony's been doing this for years, they just haven't told anyone. The letter 'o' in the logo badge on your device is a camera.

      I've divulged this to you at the risk of assassinati

    2. Re:Just when I think MS can't get more creepy by crazyjj · · Score: 3, Funny

      He's a very SKILLED assassin.

      --
      What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
  5. Well, crap... by PieEye · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...guess I'll have to move out of my hall of mirrors. "You are licensed for two viewers...we show 185 currently watching this program."

    --
    ... in bed.
  6. Re:Will Kinects be dis-kinected during movie-fests by leuk_he · · Score: 3, Interesting

    next?

    auto pause when nobody is watching.

    Note: advertisements can not be skipped, advertisements are mandatory.

    You do not want to fight your customers!

  7. Typical dual use technology by vlm · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Typical dual use technology

    Multinational megacorp : 1984 is closer every year, lets monitor and track and dehumanize, all to protect us from terrorists and "Its For The Children(tm)" and we'll purchase govt legislators to legislate our profits into perpetuity and damn the peons, some citizens like corporations are more equal than other citizens like meatbags

    Open source mythtv implementation : webcam detects wife entering the room, automatic hands off instant channel change from "Naughty Cheerleaders Car Wash 2012" to "CSPAN". I'm actually kinda surprised no one has implemented this yet. With all the video processing being done in VDPAU the CPU needs something to do to keep warm in the winter, and webcams are cheap, and prototype open source cam monitoring software already exists so ...

    --
    "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    1. Re:Typical dual use technology by Chatsubo · · Score: 5, Funny

      You can bet your ass at some stage this will lead to your wife asking: "Why are you jerking off to C-SPAN?"

      --
      > no, yes, maybe (tagging beta)
  8. Re:Will Kinects be dis-kinected during movie-fests by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You do not want to fight your customers!

    With the caveat that the customers are the advertisers, and the people who watch are just there to keep the seats warm and bump the Nielsen ratings.

    --
    Lost at C:>. Found at C.
  9. Re:..Or the other way around by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    That idea is actually worth another patent, if only to stop companies actually implementing it.

  10. Patent != intention by tambo · · Score: 5, Informative
    This article makes a mistake that I've seen a hundred times before on Slashdot: confusing "the patent says...", and "the patentee intends to..."

    I write software patents for a living. (I didn't write this one.) Let me describe how the patent drafting process goes.

    A client comes to me with a simple invention - we'd like to do (A), (B), and (C) to achieve result (X). I talk to them at length about what (ABC) is, and what critically sets (ABC) apart from every similar example. I ask questions about how each of (A), (B), and (C) could be varied; what other elements (D), (E), and/or (F) could be added; and whether (ABC) could also be used for results (Y) or (Z).

    And when I write up the patent application, EVERYTHING goes in there. (ABC) is described as the base invention, but all of the other material about (D), (E), (F), (X), (Y), and (Z) is also included as optional extensions or uses of (ABC).

    Now, here's the critical thing: I haven't fully considered whether (D) is a desirable feature, or whether (Y) is a desirable result. My client doesn't even know, or says, "we don't really intend to implement (D) or do (X)." None of that is relevant. All that matters is: They are all logical, valid extensions of (ABC), so, typically, they all go in. Anything that could make the basic technique more valuable, appear more useful, or might more fully distinguish (ABC) over known techniques is helpful to add to the specification.

    I read this patent the same way. The basic invention is: "Use a camera to count and identify people interacting with a device." Now, you can't just stop there - you haven't said what that information might be used for, and the patent office typically rejects applications that look like, "The technique is: Generate some data." So the patent discloses several uses of that information. That doesn't mean that Microsoft has any interest in using that technique - only that it's logically achievable from the basic techniques.

    Look, we all agree that technology is neutral, right? For example, DRM has been *used* for lots of obnoxious purposes (including limiting fair-use rights), but the basic technology of DRM is neither good nor bad - it just is. The same principle applies here.

    --
    Computer over. Virus = very yes.
    1. Re:Patent != intention by RazorSharp · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I agree they that they probably won't implement the thing, but the key to preventing the implementation is rabble rousing and anger before any attempt is made. Even if the idea would be to just count the viewers to generate data, that's still too intrusive for me and I'd think most viewers. It's none of Microsoft's business how many people are sitting on my couch. Not to mention there are more creepy things they could do with this data than just milk viewers for more money - facial recognition technology combined with combing the internet . . . ugh.

      Of course, I'd never have a Microsoft device in my living room anyway so I'm not too worried about it, but when this type of technology becomes prevalent it's hard to get away from it.

      --
      "From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
  11. Re:Will Kinects be dis-kinected during movie-fests by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    next?

    auto pause when nobody is watching.

    Note: advertisements can not be skipped, advertisements are mandatory.

    You do not want to fight your customers!

    At last! A legitimate use for my RealDoll.

    She can watch the ads while I take a bathroom break.

  12. The Answer is No. by akpoff · · Score: 4, Informative

    It's always no.

    One thing though: This story is a great demonstration of my maxim that any headline which ends in a question mark can be answered by the word "no". The reason why journalists use that style of headline is that they know the story is probably bollocks, and donâ(TM)t actually have the sources and facts to back it up, but still want to run it.

    In other words, Betteridge's law of headlines describes trolling by the writer or publisher rather than a commenter.

  13. Would be funny by durdur · · Score: 3, Insightful

    if it were not literally true, in this case.

  14. Ransomware was tried before by Laxator2 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I remember that some years ago, somebody came up with another brilliant idea: Have the TV sets locked on to a particular channel when the ads are shown, and ignore anything the user does with the remote control. Return control to the user only after the ads are finished.
      And to top it off, the new "feature" included an "upgraded" service, where the user will pay extra to have the channel lock removed. Patented ransomware.

    What they did not take into account, is that people who were unknowingly buying such a thing were going to return them to the store in droves, declaring the units defective.

    This move simply smacks of desperation from M$ after their blah launch of Win8 and the Surface tablet (plus the obligatory Apple and Google tablet launches around the same time)

  15. USA and car insurance by Firethorn · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Indeed. If you do not own a car, you don't need to buy car insurance. For the most part, leasing counts as 'owning'. Renting(IE the registration isn't in your name) is generally handled as a rider on the rental agreement - for like $10 they give you insurance.

    It gets even more complicated - you can own a car, and as long as it never touches a public street you can leave it unregistered and uninsured, and drive it without a license; while drunk. I just wouldn't suggest getting into an accident with it, because the liability would remain.

    --
    I don't read AC A human right