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Ask Slashdot: AT&T's Data Usage Definition Proprietary?
stox writes "As many of you know, AT&T has implemented caps on DSL usage. When this was implemented, I started getting emails letting me know my usage as likely to exceed the cap. After consulting their Internet Usage web page, I felt the numbers just weren't right. With the help of Tomato on my router, I started measuring my usage, and ended up with numbers substantially below what AT&T was reporting on a day-to-day basis. Typically around 20-30% less. By the way, this usage is the sum of inbound and outbound. At this point, I decided to contact AT&T support to determine what exactly they were defining as usage, as their web pages never really define it. Boy, did I get a surprise. After several calls, they finally told me they consider the methodology by which they calculate bandwidth usage to be proprietary. Yes, you read that right; it's a secret. They left me with the option to contact their executive offices via snail mail. Email was not an option. So, I bring my questions to you, all-knowing Slashdotters: are there any laws that require AT&T to divulge how they are calculating data usage? Should I contact my state's commerce commission or the FCC to attempt to get an answer to this?"
Most likely you don't calculate TCP headers while AT&T rightfully does. That's why you get less bandwidth use.
Granted, contacting them may not actually help you in the short term, but bringing attention to this kind of nonsense is the best way there is to try and put a stop to it. Better yet, find someplace to publish a fully fledged and documented story with relevant emails and the like and THEN start getting some attention to it. This is something there certainly should be standards for, and the government needs a kick in the pants to realize that.
My own pointless vanity vintage computing page
Try the Consumer Protection Bureau. An aimless, foundering government office might get their attention.
Welcome to AT&T. Let me see if I can help you get to the right place.
Just say what you are looking for.
Terms of Service
Did you say Enforce Archaic Rules? I thought so. Now tell me how I can help.
Privacy
I'm not sure if I heard that right, did you say Please Let the Government Have Access to All My Data?
Bandwidth Usage
I'm sorry, you are over the limit. Goodbye!
When the foot seeks the place of the head, the line is crossed. Know your place. Keep your place. Be a shoe.
DSL is based on ATM technology.
And ATM uses 53 Byte cells to transfer data. 48 Byte for the actual data and 5 Byte overhead to indicate things such as the destination.
Now when you want to transfer 50 Bytes of data, you need two atm-cells (vs 1 ethernet packet). This takes 106 Bytes of data on-the-wire.
When one end is measuring the Ethernet side (50 Bytes + ethernet overhead) and the other is measuring the ATM side you will end up with very different numbers.
A web user once found himself in a fix;
His ISP cried "too many bits!"
For while a yottabyte has a septillion,
An ATTbyte, only six.
"A 100 mbit fiber connection with no caps at all is around $100 a month here"
The keyword being "here".
"I think there are about 10 providers in this area competing with DSL, cable and fiber."
I have one cable provider in my area, that's it.
This idea will spread if corporations can profit it from it. Expect to see "proprietary" metering coming to electricity, gas, water, fuel and anything else that can be metered.
And of course they would treat customers like that. The primary constituency that a corporation is focused on is the shareholders and they are deemed far more important than customers, who come further down the priority list. Customers are still more important than the corporation's rank and file staff though, if that offers any solace.
Government inspectors ensure that gas pumps are properly calibrated. A gallon is a gallon.
The grocer's scale has to meet government standards. A pound is a pound.
A byte should be a byte.
AT&T saying their standard is proprietary is like the butcher arguing that he should be able to put his thumb on the scale when he is weighing your hamburger.
I'm going to go with this and assume that when the guy said "proprietary" he actually meant "I don't know and nobody I can talk to knows".
+1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
I am no laywer and I am assuming the cap is part of your contract with them, I cannot see how they can keep their definition of bandwidth usage a secret. They are now basically claiming that you are restricted in your usage upto the cap but they refuse to tell you what the cap actually *means*. Without clear understanding of how usage is measured, the number of the cap is meaningless.
So you are subject to provions in a contract that you are not allowed to know. It would surprise me very much if they could hold that up in court...
I had the same problem...once they started charging for exceeding the bandwidth caps I wrote a program to log usage.
I have an old Fedora box with two ethernet cards doing the router work (everything to and from the house goes through this box) and use Etherape to track the usage. A cronjob once a minute makes sure Etherape is always running, and a kill -10 every minute gets it to dump the usage data in XML which I process into a CSV for analysis and charting.
Surprisingly, their monthly usage figures have matched my full month calculations within 1%.
What irritates me is that their monthly totals are not available on their WWW site for a full week after the end of the month, and their current month totals are also delayed a couple of days sometimes wildly inaccurate since they are missing days. Example is the November totals for my account seem to be currently missing 2-5 November, and they haven't posted 12,13 November yet. Hence they show lower usage than what I really used. If this were the end of the month, I might think I can squeeze that extra download in before the end of the month, but I am sure they would figure it out and charge for it.
I hit this issue once when I breached the 150Gb cap with 6 hours remaining. They claim to sell you another 50Gb for $10, but of course that doesn't roll into the next month. That is where I would complain....if they are going to charge by the Gb, they need to accurately report usage during the month.
AT&T just sent me a letter that they are switching me to U-verse with a 250Gb cap. They claim it will be the same price as DSL for the next year, but after that who knows....only other game in town is Comcast which cost even more.
I will agree with this....having dealt with AT&T as a vendor, I would say their customer service people probably have no idea who in the company might be able to answer the question, so it easier to just punt and give the "proprietary" answer.
Furthermore, I would guess they know which market the caller is coming from, and whether they are the only provider in the area. If they know you can't vote with your feet, they are much less inclined to make you happy.
There might all sorts of traffic related to your router that you're not seeing. AT&T is likely metering your connection on their end, both in and out, and consequentially finding more overhead than you do related to signaling, headers, error correction, and so forth. They might additionally be metering ATM traffic or such instead of IP traffic -- aka even more network data.
Methinks the support guy saying it is "proprietary" is a candid way of saying he has no clue of what is being measured - let alone how. Also, it seems conceivable that AT&T might be using different techs depending on the location, and this may very well result in different connections being metered differently or at different levels. This is not to say that they shouldn't be transparent on how they meter you and what they meter exactly. I just doubt your contract entitles you to a full disclosure of how they run their network -- which is indeed proprietary and subject to change without notice.
That is incorrect. Ablock specifically works by blacklisting URL patterns from being requested. I don't know exactly how noscript works, but it's surely going to stop a script from requesting other scripts or ads.
Completely wrong.
Both adblock and noscript prevent the browser from fetching unwanted content.
Only one provider must suck big time. But you would think that there would be room for at least two competing against each other. :)
Unless they cooperate on price
It's funny, but 6 years ago I envied the US for their broadband speeds and pricing. 3 years ago, my canadian broadband surpassed the US in terms of pricing, and speed. At my place down in Florida in Pasco Co., I have the choice of...cable(brighthouse), or dial up. Their offering is 10/1 service@51/mo. I wouldn't say that an aircard or tethering is an option considering both are cost prohibitive even at $51/mo. Up here in Canadaland I now pay $42/mo for 25/1, which will be getting bumped to 50/10 with no cap.
Things are rather broken down in the US in terms of competition right now. And it has to do with over-regulation and crony capitalism protecting incumbents. Something we're very familiar with up here in Canada.
Om, nomnomnom...
No, the pictures and linked crap and not requested and doesn't get sent to you. Using Adblock and Noscript is the only way to browse the web over a dial-up modem. If you were correct, then browsing with a modem would be impossible.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
I just want to be sure that people realise that this doesn't actually mean they consider the methodology by which they calculate bandwidth usage to be proprietary. It's just a lie because the person being asked doesn't know the answer, doesn't know how to find out and feels that it's the sort of thing that will shut the submitter up.
Just a warning to those who might actually believe them.
something like75% of people have one or two ISP available to them.
usually DSL and Cable. I wish i could get fiber in my new home but I can't and won't be able to for another 15 years minimum.
no competition means no price breaks
i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
If AT&T is dispensing a measured quantity of anything, and you feel you are being cheated, make a complaint to the state bureau that deals with this. Look on a gas station pump and you will be able to find them.
I expect they may not be doing this now, but a written complaint and their desire to build their empire may well cause the heavy hand of officialdom to descend on AT&T.
There are studies to do, standards to settle and matters to enforce and little stickers to put on all measuring points. AT&T will quake in their boots, run and hide?
In livestock, you can base the rate "on the hoof," or before slaughtering losses. You buy the steer on the hoof at the measured weight. The only difference is that it is clear, and most people buying livestock for slaughter are aware that a 40%+ loss between hoof and market is common. Still, when you sell to a consumer, what they receive in hand is the actual product weight.
Another analogy would be lumber, which is sold in "nominal" sizes, but for which the actual size is smaller by (most often) 1/2" for framing sizes 2" and over, and 1/4" for thickness of hard or decorative woods and sizes under 2". An addition, some hardwood vendors will charge a 10% surcharge for straightening loss. If you buy a 2x6, you get a 1.5x5.5 board. Even if you wanted to buy a board foot of lumber (thickness (in) x width (ft) x length (ft)), you'll get a "nominal" board foot - the previously mentioned 2x6, 1 foot log, is a BF of lumber, though it's clearly less than 144 cu in of material. The sizes are based on sawmill losses (cutting and planing to size) from a piece of standing timber. Even a "full" or "rough sawn" piece of lumber is less than nominal by the thickness of the sawmill blade (kerf).
The difference here is that it's secret. Which would follow the car insurance company model for what is required to drop you from their policy. You see, they will tell you that you have been dropped, but are not required to tell you what criteria they use to drop you. That's proprietary information / secret, and they won't tell you, though it's theoretically part of the contract you signed for the insurance. I suspect the same is true of US health insurance. Your ranking and whether you qualify for renewal is based on your condition and how much you cost, but I'd be willing to bet that data is never made public.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
perhaps they've used AT&T's method for counting?
Pay half the bill and tell them you have a proprietary methodology by which you count money.
I believe they remove the petitions after a certain time. Each one has X signatures needed by Y date.
Hmm, when I did the same thing just now, the top petition was for "Justice for Travon Martin" with 2.3 million signatures, second was "Caylee's Law" with 1.3 megasigantures, and #6 is "Stop Wildlife crime" with almost half-a-million. Either they fixed a bug (I know one of the IT guys there, they try to stay on top of bugs), or perhaps you had some kind of filter in place?
SMQ 90AE4B2BC4F6BEAF7340F0B40BA2DEF7340F6BC2D0392
I'm a long time AT&T customer. I'm going to explain to the OP what his situation really is. He can either accept the reality of it or go on his Don Quixote quest to be a one man army against AT&T.
AT&T no longer wants to support their DSL service. So they do things to make it unpleasant for customers who can now get Uverse but have chosen not to do so. The DSL service drops constantly and I believe this is deliberately done to make people angry enough to abandon it. If you switch to Uverse, you will find that your completely unreliable DSL connection has been replaced magically with a completely reliable Uverse connection. Uverse also has much higher download limits. I've never even come close to using all of mine. The Uverse service is so much better and more reliable than their DSL offering that I would suggest you consider switching if you can. They are going to continue to make it painful for DSL customers who could switch but choose not to.
from the shops and you get half a pound of flour, then that's just because it's their shop. You can't even cry monopoly, there's competition.
Except that would be illegal. Short measures and false advertising are ILLEGAL for a commercial entity selling to customers.
AT&T offer (for example) a 20GB a month cap. If they cap at 14GB, they have broken the law.
If AT&T want to cap at 14GB a month of data, then they can just ADVERTISE a 14GB cap. But they can't advertise a 20GB cap and cap below that. It is false advertising and illegal.
My guess is that phone personnel you speak with are just instructed to tell you that something is "proprietary" whenever they don't know the answer, don't want to look it up, or don't want to bother someone who does know.
"Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
It must be regional, then. They're doing you a favor by not wasting your time with petitions that don't apply where you live. Maybe there's nothing people need to petition about in Belgium, or maybe Belgians just gave up.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Why not mail the executive office? Stop being lazy and gather all the info on it that you can. Once you hit a wall or have sufficient data, publish your findings.
If they are doing something weird, I bet you could take then small claims court over any overage charges you end up receiving.
Its not what it is, its something else.
They said it was proprietary to get you off the phone -- they straight up don't know the answer and were tired of talking to you. You have no way to measure the transport overhead, but they're clearly counting it. Life goes on.
Imagine if you weren't allowed to use roads because a bus company complained about your driving 3 times. --skunkpussy
They won't go "Well, we won't supply you any more" and get a new customer, they'll take you to court for the money.
Well... no. They'll just suspend your account for non-payment until you pay.
And that's part of the problem... the service provider ultimately has the upper hand, since the customer needs that internet connection a lot more then the service provider needs the remaining $7. As such, the reality is that pretty much any customer who tried that kind of stunt will panic and promptly pay up as soon as they realize that their internet has been shut off.
This service provider advantage is also why utility companies (gas, water, electricity, etc.) can so easily get away with charging outrageous "reconnection" fees, just to flip a switch and turn you back if you should happen to miss your payment date for some reason. As such, it's that much more important that the service provider be held accountable for their system of measurement. A "proprietary" system of measurement just doesn't hold water.
In Canada fuel sales are volume corrected (to 15C) so regardless of the temperature of the fuel you pay for the same amount.
I'd sick the FTC and the FCC on them... If they try and bill you for it, I'd take them to small claims court. The judge isn't going to like their answer, I bet. You need to account for all bytes in and ouf, in all packets. Or, you could tell them you are going to dump them for comcast, or sonic or who ever can complete against them.
Every time I've said I'm about to leave a company for some horrid thing they're doing, regardless of whether I'm a low-paying or high-paying customer, is "Sorry to see you go."
I'll leave the "don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out" personal feeling out of what they said. :)
The only one exception was Sprint (bought a Galaxy tab 7" with Sprint service attached). Sprint had wretched blotchy service areas in the non-metropolitan areas around here, and has next to -110db where I live. The speed, needless to say, SUCKED. It's 3G, so I want FULL speed ahead on that bastard or no service at all. Their solution: "We will send you a wireless booster for free!" This is the day after purchase, mind ya, so they're obviously in keep-new-customer-and-get-no-bad-ratings-or-feedback mode.
Here's the kicker (and I was dumb to this because I've never had this issue or question before): I asked, "If [it was] a wireless repeater, how was it going to boost a signal if it's so low already? Do I get a high gain antenna that I mount external to the house I'm in, or.... how does it work?"
The answer: "Oh, it connects to your home Internet broadband router by a network cable. You have to have home internet."
My jaw dropped (even though they couldn't see me on a phone call, obviously).
I said: "You... want... me.... to.... pay you $59+fees for service every month, where my primary point of use is home, secondary is work (where the signal is also at -95 to -110db), and only give me a device that fixes the situation at home? I have wireless at work and at home, and I don't use the device while I'm driving, which does not matter because the signal just plain sucks in the geographical area I'm in overall; you know, hills and stuff."
Their response: "Yes. You will have excellent Sprint service with this device, and you can use your wireless connection at work if they allow it to have excellent coverage in the places you go."
My retort: "Why don't I just, you know, not pay Sprint for service and just use WiFi on the device at all times?"
Theirs: "You don't get the excellent Sprint services that are included with the device."
Mine: "Like the stuff that basically shows me my bills and pops up "new apps I can buy" all of the time?"
Theirs: "It is an excellent value. Where should we send the network booster?"
Mine: "I want to cancel my plan and keep the device, which I already purchased at full price. I'll just use my own WiFi. Cancel it now."
Theirs: "You signed a Sprint contract so we can't really cancel your service; we are here to help you resolve this problem."
Mine: "The 'Contract' says I have 30 days with with to cancel with a complete refund of any fees charged."
Theirs: "We are so sorry to see you go. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on...."
Well, the first sentence is true. Anyhow, I took the device to WiFi only (turned off the Sprint 3G network), rooted it, removed their apps with Titanium Backup, and still use the damn thing to this day (even though I don't use it).
Sorry for the rambling, but I thought someone here, somewhere, might enjoy reading something similar to what they went through with some company, somewhere. :)