Slashdot Mirror


Russia, China, and Others Seek Greater Control Over Internet

kodiaktau writes "A proposal put forth by Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, Algeria, Sudan and the United Arab Emirates seeks greater international control and government of internet addressing. 'A leaked draft (PDF) of the Russia-led proposals would give countries "equal rights to manage the Internet including in regard to the allotment, assignment and reclamation of Internet numbering." This could allow governments to render websites within their borders inaccessible, even via proxy servers or other countries. It also could allow for multinational pacts in which countries could terminate access to websites at each others' request.' The move would basically undermine ICANN and decentralize control of internet addressing: 'The revision would give nations the explicit right to "implement policy" on net governance and "regulate the national Internet segment," the draft says.'"

41 of 174 comments (clear)

  1. Oh FFS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Well, I knew it was coming. No "free" source of information can remain free forever. Here's to hoping they fail.

    1. Re:Oh FFS by Armakuni · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They likely won't fail completely. They will get some small victory, at least. Next time, they will get a little more. And the time after that. This is too important to governments to ever give up.

      --
      That's not Picasso, that's Kandinsky!
    2. Re:Oh FFS by LateArthurDent · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They likely won't fail completely. They will get some small victory, at least. Next time, they will get a little more. And the time after that. This is too important to governments to ever give up.

      Sometimes I fear that I'll be telling my grand kids about how I remember when the internet was free. Actually, my biggest fear is that they'll be so indoctrinated they'll compare it to the wild west, and tout how all the regulation of the mature internet made it a safer place. I fear they'll just file my complaints about lack of freedom under "old man rambling" category.

    3. Re:Oh FFS by grcumb · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Don't pretend the US administration, donkey or elephant regardless, doesn't want this.

      Okay, I won't pretend. They don't want this.

      The primary reason is that it's simply bad for business. Secondarily, they simply don't want Internet governance to become a matter of political and diplomatic negotiation with countries that don't love them. Tertiarily: There's a reason the EU, Canada, Japan and Australia are all lined up against these proposals: They actually do occasionally give a shit about human rights. I know it's not au fait to think so, but it's true.

      And regarding delegates' stupidity: Judge for yourself whether the US Ambassador to this event sounds stupid or not.

      --
      Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
    4. Re:Oh FFS by houghi · · Score: 2

      I already tell them that The Internet used to be about content and not about advertising. And they are not even grandkids or kids. They are people of my own age.

      I remember the outcry when sites did not just had one but TWO banners.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    5. Re:Oh FFS by Kergan · · Score: 2

      Don't pretend the US administration, donkey or elephant regardless, doesn't want this.

      I wouldn't be as sure as you are. The current situation is in their best political interest, in every manner you can possibly imagine, and they've no material reason to make the slightest concessions. Think about it for a moment, and forget for a moment that they wouldn't mind banning an islamic website or three...

      They currently control ICANN et al. If they cave in to the demands of authoritarian States, they'll need to forfeit ICANN. So this is dead in the water to start with. Not to mention the NSA.

      Also, consider that for every website or page that the US seeks to take down through courts (e.g. torrent sites, hacker sites, the occasional prophet caricature, etc.), there are millions upon millions of other pages that the likes of China or Iran can do absolutely nothing about. These broadcast the Western lifestyle in its full glory, complete in its individualism and variety, its freedom of speech, its demands for democracy and transparency, its shameless cult of wealth and well being, its abundance of scientific knowledge and know how, its undaunted religion bashing, its supremely libertine sex practices, its borderline-rabid feminists, et cetera, ad nausea. Adding insult to injuries, pesky plebeians who question their situation to the point of deciding to take down (and occasionally shoot) their oppressors do so live over the internet. Yuck. Yuck. Yuck.

    6. Re:Oh FFS by kesuki · · Score: 4, Insightful

      you can do something about that here and now.
      the government tried taking away alchohol, the people stopped following laws.
      it's not like the government can just make us think whatever they want us to think. even if they control the information people find ways to fact check, there have been people who sneak in digital cards with non state approved data on them in countries with tight controls.. before that they snuck in microfilm, and used whatever magnafier they could find.
      before that they printed papers and before that they wrote cyphers that could be decoded with innocent looking canes.
      the government has a contract with the people not just the top 1% they truly are the servants of all the people. the sooner they realize they are servants the better.
      the internet isn't free on the whole earth and probably never will be, freedom is fought for daily, almost everywhere. i know a lot of smart people and i know that i benefited greatly from freedom on the internet, maybe the internet will be reduced to walled gardens, but for some reason i think people will not tolorate the loss of the 'free' internet.

  2. Looks perfectly in line with the ITU by Halo1 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    From the official speech delivered by the ITU's secretary-general at the first Plenary of World Conference on International Telecommunications in Dubai last week:

    We have the power to create a brave new world, where social and economic justice prevails – together.

    And no, that quote is not taken out of context.

    --
    Donate free food here
    1. Re:Looks perfectly in line with the ITU by sycodon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Social and Economic Justice" = Totalitarianism in a nutshell.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    2. Re:Looks perfectly in line with the ITU by Halo1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Seems like my browser decided to log me out. So, again, logged in this time:

      "Social and Economic Justice" = Totalitarianism in a nutshell.

      I completely disagree with that statement, although it can be perfectly abused for that purpose of course. Then again, so can "spreading democracy".

      --
      Donate free food here
    3. Re:Looks perfectly in line with the ITU by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The Internet is such a great success today, precisely because the ITU was not involved with it. If it was their creation, it would be their right to regulate it. The other countries just want a piece of the action of Internet control because it is now such an important resource to the economy of the world.

      Well, so is crude oil . . . so should the UN also declare that crude oil is a world resource and crude oil exploitation and distribution be regulated by the UN? Saudi Arabia might not be so happy about that.

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    4. Re:Looks perfectly in line with the ITU by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 2

      "Social and economic justice" is a hollow phrase that can mean anything. Does economic justice mean protecting consumer rights, or does it mean doing 9 years for copying a couple of songs? Does social justice mean freedom from censorship, or does it mean censorship in the name of protecting us from child porn and hate speech?

      Don't look at the statement, look at the people uttering it. None of these guys have one iota of interest in safeguarding our current freedoms on the internet. One might want to more tightly control what is being said, the other may want to do away with anonymity, while a third may want the right to shut down sites without having to deal with troublesome crap like "due process". But all of them are after power... or perhaps they genuinely care about us. Which doesn't make it better: there is one kind of man I fear more than the tyrant, and that is the tyrant who oppresses us "for our own good".

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
  3. Time for a political solution.... by gadget+junkie · · Score: 5, Funny

    Instead of opposing it and then caving in, The western world could rip a page off the dictatorships' book: "the proposal has merit, but it has to be studied thoroughly: We could form a committee with ,oh, all the countries in the world, chaired by a non aligned country, Tuvalu [internet domain: *.tv], and wait until they come with a legal and technical proposal behind which a qualified majority, for example enough countries representing 95% of world population and internet domains, gathering at least 85% of the number of countries involved, could be found. Do you mind if we of the ole US of A get represented by all the 50 states individually? We know for a fast that Canada wants to do likewise, and to be fair, all the European countries have a vote each, so it would only be fair..... See you in 3.100 AD, ok? Of course, if some technical advance has taken hold in the meantime, the whole process has to be restarted."

    --
    "If a boss demands loyalty, give him integrity. But if he demands integrity, give him loyalty." (John Boyd, 1927-1997)
    1. Re:Time for a political solution.... by ericloewe · · Score: 2

      Where are the damned bureaucrats when we need them? You can definitely count on the EU, we even gathered our best bureacrats and placed them in one spot to concentrate their paperwork-producing powers.

    2. Re:Time for a political solution.... by Dahamma · · Score: 2

      I think it's mostly a matter of redundancy. If one of the headquarters collapses into a bureaucratic black hole under its own ponderous weight, they'll still have a backup bureaucracy to continue to get nothing done...

  4. Folks on /. have been complaining about US control by StormyWeather · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Now is their chanc to experience the awesomeness ofRussian and Chinese control.

  5. Serenity's Core Planets by caspy7 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This reminds me of the scene at the beginning of Serenity in which the children question why the Browncoat rebels would reject civilized living.

    1. Re:Serenity's Core Planets by aurispector · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Remember that the next time some idiot starts blathering about the need for gun control. Freedom can be dangerous. The most dangerous thing of all is an idea.

      Take away people's ability to defend themselves, then take away people's ability to educate themselves. The last hurdle is taking away people's ability to think for themselves.

      "1984" was a warning, but a lot of governments seem to be using it as an instruction manual.

      --
      I have mod points. The reign of terror begins now.
    2. Re:Serenity's Core Planets by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What's interesting here is that these countries already have plenty of control over the internet at home. They want to extend that control further abroad.

    3. Re:Serenity's Core Planets by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 3, Insightful

      you hit the nail on the head. they already have all the control they NEED (over their own people).

      thread over; you win.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    4. Re:Serenity's Core Planets by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 2

      having a load of armed civilians around me ...certainly would not make me feel safer!

      You might not feel safer, but feelings are a piss-poor guide to reality. Within the U.S., you are -- as a matter of crime statistics -- safer in areas where civilians are legally allowed to own and carry firearms then in areas with strong gun control laws.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    5. Re:Serenity's Core Planets by kaws · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm not so sure about that. Politicians have gotten to be pretty effective at distracting the general populace with issues that don't have a very big impact as far as governance is concerned. Wether or not stuff like marijuana or gay marriage is allowed won't directly impact the government in any way that will matter for how this country is ran but they seem to be some of the bigger issues discussed. Personally I don't care too much for those issues but no matter my opinion I think that stuff like the internet is a far more important issue. tldr; People getting involved isn't enough, it's people getting involved in the right issues that will truly make a difference.

    6. Re:Serenity's Core Planets by Gonoff · · Score: 2

      You aren't thinking it through, then.

      I assure you I am. I was trained to use a rifle, amongst other things while wearing a uniform. Hence my wariness of armed civilians .

      A) having a gun doesn't automatically make a person stupid, evil, or dangerous. Nearly all advocates of right-to-carry are also advocates of mandatory training courses, too.

      The (law abiding) people around here who would most like to have "personal protection" would not tolerate someone who acted like any of my instructors. Wanting to carry a gun seems related to a well developed sense of entitlement. That would not include non commissioned officers telling you what to do.

      B) Criminals seek easy targets. If there is risk that a target (or group of targets) may resist with lethal force, the criminals move on to other targets.

      Alternatively, they may start shooting from a greater range and not even bother telling you to put your hands up.

      Your armed neighbors make you safer because they discourage violent crime in the area as a whole, just by virtue of having guns, even if they never use them.

      They do, however, encourage people to break in and steal the guns after shooting the residents first. Keep your guns in your house and make sure that your bullets stay within your property.

      People with an irrational fear of guns tell themselves very strange stories about how self-defense situations play out and where the benefits come from. The truth is simple, and the value of a well-armed society is real.

      The advantage of living in an unarmed society here (UK) is pretty real too. I am much less likely to get shot than you now that I am a civilian. I would be curious to know how the % chance of being shot varies between within the USA and our service personnel in Afghanistan.

      Also, freedom is important. And lastly, the way Hollywood portrays shootings is ludicrous, but unless you have been trained you have no idea what is realistic and what isn't.

      I have seen people loose their freedom and anyone who watches the international news has seen people regain it. I Understand that Afghanistan has always had more guns than people. How come they lost their freedom? If both sides are armed, it makes little difference if one side is mean and ready to use them and the people trying to defend their freedom are not. That is why we have mean rough people wearing uniform. Their job is to defend you and all your gun club friends. They do not want you getting in the way when the nasties come over the hills.

      --
      I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
    7. Re:Serenity's Core Planets by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2

      "Passing laws against guns and only using the laws against blacks has been tried, but it wasn't an attempt to actually ban guns from areas (which would require checkpoints in and out and such). Actual control has never been done."

      "Based on the statistics, gun control saves lives."

      You haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about. For just one glaring example, handguns were completely banned from the District of Columbia for many years (unless you managed to get an expensive and rather rare permit), until the Supreme Court recently overturned the ban.

      But more to the point: the U.S. Department of Justice's own statistics contradict you. For another glaring example: per-capita crime (and in particular major crimes) have been going steadily DOWN in the U.S. for about 30 years now. Yet during that entire same period, per-capita firearm ownership has been going steadily UP. If there is any correlation at all, it is negative.

      Historically, areas that had strict gun-control laws that later loosened those laws saw crime go DOWN. And the areas of the country with the highest crime rate continue to be precisely those areas with the strictest firearms control legislation.

      Sorry, dude, but the ACTUAL statistics are all against you. Read the definitive and never-successfully-refuted studies by Gary Kleck and John Lott. Note that they started out as self-proclaimed liberals, who intended to show that gun control actually saves lives. What they actually found out was the opposite. Kleck is currently a University professor in Florida, and still claims to be a liberal. But when asked about gun control, he said, "You can't argue with the truth. It doesn't work." Lott continues to research and write about the issue.

      To be fair, Lott has been criticized for using a sock-puppet account in Internet forums to support his own work. However, none of that work has so far been shown to be false or in error. Further, while records of one survey were reportedly lost in a hard drive crash, to his credit Lott conducted the survey all over again and published the results.

  6. Dictators' charter by benjfowler · · Score: 2

    It's a dictators charter, pure and simple.

    Now's a really good time to tell the world where to jump off.

    1. Re:Dictators' charter by 1s44c · · Score: 2

      It's a dictators charter, pure and simple.

      Now's a really good time to tell the world where to jump off.

      The current situation is a dictatorship. Sharing responsibility isn't.

  7. end of US hedgemony is a Good Thing(tm) by 1s44c · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The current situation:
    One country can implement rules to abuse the whole world. Each country can implement rules to screw over its own citizens and manipulate traffic routed though that country. Many countries already abuse their own citizens ( China, UK, Netherlands, etc. )

    Without US control:
    Each country can implement rules to screw over its own citizens and manipulate traffic routed though that country. Many countries already abuse their own citizens ( China, UK, Netherlands, etc. )

    How can this not be a Good Thing(tm)?

    Besides the part in the summary about blocking access via proxy servers is bull. Even with the deep packet inspection currently implemented in the UK they can't block VPN links which can be easily hidden in other traffic.

    1. Re:end of US hedgemony is a Good Thing(tm) by SuricouRaven · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Be fair. There is a matter of degree. The UK has an extensive internet surveilance system and a secretive committe who have the power to ban any website without any oversight or accountability and maintain a secret blacklist which all ISPs are obliged to block (In the name of fighting child porn, of course), true - but we hardly ever use such powers. China, on the other hand, frequently and as a matter of routine blocks websites for posting non-government-approved oppinions, revealing facts that could impact the government's support, go against the rulers cultural ideals or even that could compete commercially with domestic companies. They may do the same thing, but China does it to a far greater extent. The UK has a lot of catching up to do before it can claim to be in the same category of oppression as China.

    2. Re:end of US hedgemony is a Good Thing(tm) by grcumb · · Score: 4, Insightful

      One country can implement rules to abuse the whole world.

      It can, yes. But the problem, you see, is that it doesn't.

      Oh sure, it plays fast and loose with its own law enforcement against individual sites and services that piss it off, but it does not implement rules to abuse the world at large. In fact, it doesn't even implement rules at all, for the most part.

      What you're suggesting here is that we trade the potential for abuse of power by a national government that has a track record of avoiding any egregious abuses, for the certainty of abuse of power by a bunch of governments whose history is riddled with examples of some of the most appalling derogations of human rights in the history of the world.

      How can this possibly be a Good Thing(tm)?

      --
      Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
    3. Re:end of US hedgemony is a Good Thing(tm) by cynyr · · Score: 4, Interesting

      some examples of breakage this would likely cause...

      UK decides that it would like to have control over *.com. Implements rules for it, and give out www.google.com to Microsoft (they paid more). Now what happens in the USA when I ask the root DNS servers for the IP(s) for www.google.com? Do I sometimes get UK Bing?

      If your answer was "simple, each country runs its own namesever!" How do I get to www.bbc.co.uk? Does the BBC have to setup a server in the USA?

      Actully what i think should happen is all non-countrycode TLDs should go away. Then we could have a international internet body (IIB) that basically agrees that the only allowed TLDs are country codes and that each country is responsable for maintaing them. *.com would then become *.com.usa *.gov would become *.gov.usa. In Australia they could have *.com.au, and *.gov.au. This would allow each country to have control, and wouldn't break the internet.

      Also it could be decided by this IIB that all servers must use the country code of the country they are located in. Recognized countries are the same set that the UN recognizes. So if google wants to setup www.google.bz they would have to have at least a forwarding server in Belize.

      --
      All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
  8. Re:And I'd like.... by 1s44c · · Score: 2

    And I'd like a resolution that advocates regime change of these oppressive, abusive governments around the world such as in Saudi Arabia that have no legitimacy whatsoever. But hey, it's not a perfect world.

    The problem being that 'regime change' just creates a bigger mess. Look at Egypt right now, it was a bit messed up, now it's it's seriously messed up. Same with the French revolution. Same with Iraq and Iran.

  9. Dis-unity by Commontwist · · Score: 3, Interesting

    So instead of working towards an Internet that blends everything together in a rich, international and multicultural mosaic they wish to deny everything in areas where a select, privileged few rule, creating a blander Internet that caters to their dogma. Nice way to block other people's viewpoints and thus create greater cultural, religious, and political misunderstandings.

    Kings of the hill, indeed.

    1. Re:Dis-unity by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

      True, but you need to think cross-culturally. From their perspective, multiculturalism is just a way of saying that their ancient, respectable culture or pure thoughts and holy justice is going to be corrupted by western heresy, perversion and blasphemy. It is their duty to defend themselves against these abominable ideas. And if doing so means securing their own grasp on power, so much the better.

  10. Re:No more Internet by Cederic · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Which is fine, they can already do this.

    Let them have their own IP based networks. Nothing's stopping them now. The technology's freely available.

    Meanwhile, the rest of us will use the interconnected networks on which we can largely do as we please. When we can't, we'll switch to other interconnected networks.

    The cat's out of the bag. Either you allow connected networks or you don't, and you can already make that choice.

  11. 'Controlling' the internet? Good luck with that. by Alwin+Henseler · · Score: 4, Interesting

    With today's centralized structure of backbone connections, it shouldn't be too hard for governments to 'squeeze the pipes'. Which for most users, should do the job of blocking 'undesired' sites. I don't see why a government would even need the help of outside organizations (or other countries) for that.

    Technically inclined users will be able to find ways around that. And it'll be very hard (if not impossible) to stop those users. That is, unless a government is prepared to f**k with such basics as encrypted connections. Which would make many legitimate uses (eg. online banking, webmail) impossible too. So from a government's POV it's basically a choice between "no internet at all", or "a mostly controlled internet, but with loopholes for those who know to find them".

    With wireless routers becoming very common, it's not hard to imagine that some mesh networking protocol will pop up. Retrieve firmware from your neighbor (to get around what government allows to be sold commercially), upload to your router @ home, send messages around the net by passing them to a neighbor's router, that router passing it onto the next neighbor, and so forth a 100 times until it reaches its destination. All in P2P style with full use of encryption technology. Maybe not efficient (or a replacement for general web browsing), but good luck blocking that.

  12. Re:Oppressive Regimes by gmuslera · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Reminds me another country that supports revolutions and even invades foreing countries for "freedom of people" too.

  13. News Flash by flyneye · · Score: 2

    Russia, China and others seek power over others. Shocking surprise. More shocking, no one trusts them enough to give them a f**king drop of it outside their borders. Film at 11 with pie charts,timelines and product placement.

    --
    *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
  14. Wild west by Tony+Isaac · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Nostalgia aside, there are significant parallels to the wild west.

    - The Internet has been a place of wide open spaces and unparalleled freedom.
    - Everybody who wanted to could go stake a claim (domain name) somewhere, for next to nothing.
    - If you don't protect your own turf (Web site, community, etc.), often nobody else will.
    - Peddlers (Web ads) roam around selling goods you probably don't want or need, only to disappear when the goods don't turn out to be what was advertised.
    - Outlaws lurk around the periphery, and sometimes roam around causing damage to established communities, or you own computer.

    The wild west could not stay wild. As it became a more popular place to live, the old free-for-all could no longer be sustained. People demanded security and enforcement of laws to protect themselves and their communities. Whether we like it or not, the same thing will happen / is happening to the Internet. We must be vigilant to ensure that the new, "civilized" Internet is a place where people will want to live.

    1. Re:Wild west by Nerdfest · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They wanted laws, not censorship. There is a difference.

  15. They can now do as they will within their borders. by John+Hasler · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The real goal is to require all other nations and institutions to actively cooperate with their censorship.

    --
    Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
  16. Re:soviernty by rickb928 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Why shouldn't they indeed? But, what is a country?

    If it is the leader, dictator, government, bureaucracy, then indeed they can and will set the rules, and they will need the valves on the intertubes available to them to control the flow of information - ideas, values, concepts, the like.

    But if a country is to include the people, then perhaps the people will want to know things, things other than those approved of and delivered by their dictator, government, bureacracy.

    The current Internet is already so ubiquitous that cutting off a country results in an immediate acknowlegement that the people of that country have been denied access to the most important and powerful forces we have - ideas, information, values, and the like. It seems, to me, that the ITU is being used by many countries' powers to regain control and be able to suppress the people even more efficiently. That alone is reason enough to oppose this, but the leaders of this movement are themselves potentially some of the least trustworthy and most likely to misuse these powers.

    The US may not be blameless or without fault, but we should tell these other countries that if they find it necessary to exert this level of influence and control over the Internet, they should do so within their own borders, and leave us out of it please. Just have their ISPs rearchitect their systems, and give them the cutoff and isolate switch. No need to get us involved.

    The second greatest attraction of freedom is its existence elsewhere.

    --
    deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.