Texas State Rep. Files 2 Bills To Ban RFID In Schools

BeatTheChip writes "The day Andrea Hernandez lost her federal case against expulsion for refusing a school mandated RFID badge, Rep. Lois Kolkhorst moved to file two bills on the first day of the Texas Legislative session. Kolkhorst has sponsored several anti-RFID bills for schools over the years. This year they are HB 101 and HB 102."

Comments

Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[sam_vilain]

I mean, it's not like the kids have to be implanted with the badges. You can easily leave the badge somewhere if you want to go somewhere naughty. Is there something I've missed?

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because some people have a sense of dignity and object to being treated like cattle.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[girlintraining]

Is there something I've missed?

Yup. The accounting scheme by which schools are funded. It's not based on the number of students attending a school, but the number of seat hours. RFID offers a better way of tracking students while they're on campus, which in turn increases the number of seat hours while holding down the costs of keeping detailed attendance records. It actually has absolutely nothing to do with tracking students. You know those little ID batches you have to wear to work (office workers everywhere know this)? Same technology. Adults do it all the time, and nobody complains about how MegaCorp Inc is watching where they're going once they're off work because they're carrying an RFID card. Your credit card probably has an RFID too. Your cell phone may even have one. The crap you buy at the superstore... yup, there too.

But stick it on a kid and suddenly everyone goes full retard. As if.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[AHuxley]

Follow the funding. A blob of plastic over a chip, been sold to one area today. Then the county, state. Once a few big states have it- nation wide.
This will ensure a generation thinks they are tracked everyday.
Recall what the 'free' laptops with webcams did in US schools?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbins_v._Lower_Merion_School_District ie the ... "seeing him eating the candy in a webcam image"

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[Darinbob]

As adults we're using those badges to get into and out of the buildings, and to watch for non-employees from sneaking in and stealing secrets. Currently all the ones I've used do not have RFID, someone asks to see your badge and you show it without having it automatically scanned (most places anyway). But with these RFID badges in schools they are capable of tracking the students movements, knowing where they go and when, and the primary purpose of the badges is monitoring.

Now if work places started using badges to monitor how long everyone was at their workspace then you'd certainly see a lot of objections to that spring up.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[sam_vilain]

RFID offers a better way of tracking students while they're on campus, which in turn increases the number of seat hours while holding down the costs of keeping detailed attendance records.

If anything, this strikes me as a benefit. All the teacher then has to do is a head count, I guess. Assuming that children and teachers don't conspire to arrange for a perfect attendance, discrepancies should catch either side gaming the measurement.

But stick it on a kid and suddenly everyone goes full retard. As if.

Besides, it's nothing that can't be solved with a suitable application of Faraday cages ;-)

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[girlintraining]

Recall what the 'free' laptops with webcams did in US schools?

Just wait until this guy finds out what teenagers do with the ones their parents paid for. In other news, sometimes people drink and drive. The solution is therefore to ban cars. Sometimes people shoot other people. Solution? Ban guns. And sometimes, very rarely, people on the internet say stupid things. Obviously... we need to ban the internet too. Or perhaps we should just accept that sometimes people do stupid things, and rather than punish everybody, we just punish the stupid people. Unless of course children are involved, in which case, feel free to go bat shiat crazy. It's the popular thing to do right now. I'm looking at you, Obama.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[fredprado]

Yes. Being tracked violates people's privacy. I know that things like privacy are outdated concepts, especially compared to the interests of business, but some of US still feel it is a fight worth fighting.

The more information you give to third parties about you the more control you give up over your live. The less the government and companies can know about you the better.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[girlintraining]

Assuming that children and teachers don't conspire to arrange for a perfect attendance, discrepancies should catch either side gaming the measurement.

That depends on children, teenagers and government employees being honest.

Besides, it's nothing that can't be solved with a suitable application of Faraday cages ;-)

That'll make the parents who insist wifi and cell phones are making them sick happy, atleast...

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[WaffleMonster]

I mean, it's not like the kids have to be implanted with the badges. You can easily leave the badge somewhere if you want to go somewhere naughty. Is there something I've missed?

RFID tags can be read over large distances with proper equipment. This data can then be used by anyone including pedo stalkers and family members with restraining orders against them to wholesale spy on the movements of students.

It could also be used to trigger hidden explosives or other harmful devices when the right people are present.

Since there is no assured association between badge holder and the student due to lack of implantation it would increase the chance of teacher laziness in dealing with attendance. It is too easy to just trust the technology and turn off your brain. This can have harmful consequences.

After the first few weeks it takes most teachers all of 20 seconds to figure out who is and is not in class.

Failing that is swiping a card thru some sort of reader when you get to class really all that difficult? Why are radio tags necessary?

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[girlintraining]

Now if work places started using badges to monitor how long everyone was at their workspace then you'd certainly see a lot of objections to that spring up.

Yes, we're certainly fortunate your employer doesn't know whether or even when you're at work. Such a technological advancement would never be tolerated.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[Darkness404]

Except that most ID badges aren't being used to track where I am at the office. They aren't being used to see if I'm there at work, they're being used to let me into the building, more of a virtual key. There's a HUGE difference between an electronic key and being treated like cattle.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[Sarius64]

Because over-zealous administrators and government officials that deem it necessary to control every moment of a human being's life could not possibly be the nut in the equation.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[peragrin]

Not only that but public schools are basically educational veal farms.

You lock the kids into certain rooms during the day, don't let them leave and test them periodically to see if they average out to make the grade like cattle. Schools get more money for meeting average and having kids pass tests, but all the kids learn is how to pass the test not learn how to think.

The best part is for the last 30 years schools on average lose money, have funding cut etc. Then we wonder why they struggle. sports, band, most arts those are paid extra's for schools now. and we wonder why kids are coming out dumber than ever.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[Ferzerp]

One need not be a religious nut to see the danger in indoctrinating children to accept this level of location tracking, even if it is only within the confines of a school, it still opens the door to more by creating a generation of individual's who are less averse to privacy invasion due to familiarity.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[Ferzerp]

*individuals (woops)

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[Sarius64]

Yep, and we know the track record in educational bastions like California has shown.

Focus on standardized tests may be pushing some teachers to cheat

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[tompaulco]

RFID offers a better way of tracking students while they're on campus
Well, not necessarily better, but certainly more expensive and invasive.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[10101001 10101001]

Yup. The accounting scheme by which schools are funded. It's not based on the number of students attending a school, but the number of seat hours. RFID offers a better way of tracking students while they're on campus, which in turn increases the number of seat hours while holding down the costs of keeping detailed attendance records. It actually has absolutely nothing to do with tracking students.

That is its own perverseness, then. If anything RFID tags *should* be used to track students while on campus to keep a better history of who is showing up to which classes--coupled with a random sampling to verify that said tag is being used by said student.

You know those little ID batches you have to wear to work (office workers everywhere know this)? Same technology. Adults do it all the time, and nobody complains about how MegaCorp Inc is watching where they're going once they're off work because they're carrying an RFID card. Your credit card probably has an RFID too. Your cell phone may even have one. The crap you buy at the superstore... yup, there too.

Um, plenty of people complain about MegaCorp Inc and others tracking them. They also worry about RFID tags in credit cards or other monetary cards being read and used elsewhere. The general feeling though is, well, what are you going to do about it? As you point out, RFID tags have become quite pervasive. In any case, for all the talk of it, at least adults generally have the luxury of avoiding or blocking RFID tags as they can choose where to work, where to shop, whether or not to buy a tin foil wallet, etc. Given school is mandatory...

But stick it on a kid and suddenly everyone goes full retard. As if.

Perhaps it's because they're kids and it's yet another example of the state forcing temporary guardianship over other people's children to seemingly indoctrinate them into accepting yet another potentially creepy privacy violation? I mean, for all the talk of a school being a public building, it behaves a lot more like a private building most the time. And I think most adults would be unhappy about CCTV everywhere at their place of work. That the RFID tag could be used as a metaphorical equivalent.... Of course, as you original state, the whole point really is to allow schools to game the budgeting system and actually tracking students would almost certain work against that gaming, so I can only really see it being used for tracking in isolated incidents by school administrators to bully students they don't like. But, then, they'd do that anyways without the RFID tags.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[VortexCortex]

You know those little ID batches you have to wear to work (office workers everywhere know this)? Same technology. Adults do it all the time, and nobody complains about how MegaCorp Inc is watching where they're going once they're off work because they're carrying an RFID card.

That's because Adults get to decide where they work, and if they're worried about carrying 'the mark of the Beast' or whatever religious belief, then they can choose to quit and work elsewhere. It's true the kids could quit school too, but it's not nearly as easy because of zoning and their parents might not be able to home school them, and the schooling is mandatory so they can't just protest by not attending.

Not that I'm saying it's rational thinking, just explaining since you don't seem to understand why these folks go "full retard." Honestly, it doesn't seem like you're trying to understand the situation or answer the question to which you relied. Having fun shooting fish in a barrel? "Oh look! Irrational folks acting Irrationally -- And I'm pointing it out!" How Interesting . Fuck you mods.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[SplashMyBandit]

Still doesn't justify tracking students inside (and outside, if you read the claims) school grounds and times.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[Xeranar]

You wear an RFID badge if you work in a high-tech firm. You wear an RFID badge if you work in a high-security building. You wear an RFID badge in numerous situations that employ lawyers, engineers, and various other professionals. Why is this an issue? Oh that's right, it is /. and any of normal monitoring and security is an infringement of their constitutional right to be a belligerent dick.

Side note: Yes, schools can do this. Is it right or wrong? Really depends on how they use it but it is how you use the technology not the technology itself.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[AK Marc]

They aren't really being used to track the kids either. They "can" and that's enough to set off lots of people. I have to swipe in and out of multiple doors at work. Maybe they don't track me, but it would be trivial for them to do so. I've worked other places where bored executives do track people. They want to see when people get to work and how long they stay. Much like most companies don't read everyone's email, but the capabilities are there, and some people do. I know I have, though only under written orders from an exec for a specific purpose.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[SplashMyBandit]

I am also open to the notion that the only way we will better understand human activity is to study it.

If you want to do social studies then get consent from randomly selected citizens. A curiosity to study human nature in no way entitles anyone to track people *who cannot refuse to be tracked due to a massive power imbalance* (eg. pupils). To want to track people aligns with totalitarian and fascist impulses. The student in question was completely right to refuse to be tracked, and anyone who opposes it is completely wrong and against the freedoms in the spirit of the US Constitution. The fact that anyone would seek to justify such tracking beggars belief.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[Darkness404]

Sure, but you can't really "opt-out" of a public school as a kid. If you have the cash you can go to a private school or if your parents don't work you can be home-schooled, but those are small exceptions. And if the student believes the RFID tags are invading their privacy and the parents don't want to fight it, they are stuck there.

On the other hand, if I think that RFID is invading my privacy at work, I can quit and go to one of the many jobs that don't use RFID. A student doesn't have that luxury.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[Baloroth]

You know those little ID batches you have to wear to work (office workers everywhere know this)? Same technology. Adults do it all the time, and nobody complains about how MegaCorp Inc is watching where they're going once they're off work because they're carrying an RFID card.

Nope, don't have one of those.

Your credit card probably has an RFID too.

Nope.

Your cell phone may even have one.

Well, sort of, they have to communicate with towers. Cell phones have RFID built in by definition, thats how they work.

The crap you buy at the superstore... yup, there too.

Aaand nope. Some of the newer ones, maybe, and expensive product is generally tagged with a badge that sets off the exit alarms, but it gets removed/disabled after you walk out, and it doesn't track the movement through the store (that stuff is far more expensive than most megamarts are willing to spring for). Besides, I'm not exactly going to complain over what someone else does with the stuff they own, am I?

In any case, the point is if I don't want to, I don't need to be tracked, by anyone or anything. Students, however, don't get that right. They can't object, courtesy of this case. And if teenagers when they are most impressionable are being tracked, they get used to it and start to accept it as adults... which means very soon our sort-of democracy sees no problem forcing everyone to be tracked by the government. And that every right-minded individual should have a very big problem with.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[Ferzerp]

In every example that you present, you are in the environment due to your own choice. You are free to refuse the badge and leave at any time. Therein lies the difference.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[Mitreya]

RFID offers a better way of tracking students while they're on campus, which in turn increases the number of seat hours while holding down the costs of keeping detailed attendance records.

Except that it doesn't! How can you verify that the student associated with the RFID is actually in school? They can just skip school and have a friend buzz them in.

It actually has absolutely nothing to do with tracking students.

It enables _others_ to track students (potentially). At least during school, possibly outside schools if students do not actively disable RFIDs every day.

You know those little ID batches you have to wear to work (office workers everywhere know this)?

You know how you don't have to work at such job? Students HAVE to go to school. They may even not have too many options to switch schools (like you could with a job) as public schools are usually tied to where you live

And if RFID badge at work was used to track people I'd oppose that too.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[girlintraining]

Because some people have a sense of dignity and object to being treated like cattle.

If these hypothetical people equate RFID badges to the undignified and bovine because it might allow someone to track their movements, I can only assume they also don't work at any place that requires keycards or ID badges for entry (most are RFID-based), carry no credit cards, have no plans on ever leaving the country (passport), don't own a cell phone, do not drive a car (automated number plate recognition), only buy from an increasingly-limited number of stores who don't embed RFID tags in their products for inventory control, and in the near future will have to avoid taking certain drugs (RFID-tagged pills on things like pain medication, etc., for medication management is in the works)...

Pray tell, where do these hypothetical people live, with the Amish? RFID is everywhere. It is a pervasive technology, and until someone suggested tagging high schoolers with them, nobody's sense of dignity and bovinity was called into question. I suspect there's a sense of something here that's driving most people who have a problem with this -- but it's not dignity.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[AK Marc]

RFID tags can be read over large distances with proper equipment.

No, they can't. Secondly, if that's an issue, shield the school so they can never be read through a school wall.

This data can then be used by anyone including pedo stalkers and family members with restraining orders against them to wholesale spy on the movements of students.

So can eyes, so lets outlaw eyes.

It could also be used to trigger hidden explosives or other harmful devices when the right people are present.

A cell phone trigger with someone looking in through a window would work better, so paint all the windows green.

There are no new problems caused by RFID, just a few non-problems made worse, into still-non-problems. Yawn.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[jedidiah]

> You wear an RFID badge if you work in a high-tech firm.

I've spent my working life in high-tech firms and have managed to somehow avoid this. Furthermore, those function as ACCESS CONTROLS. They are keys. They aren't intended for Big Brother spying nonsense.

Even if the tech were the same (which it isn't), the intent is quite different.

Corporate beaurocrats have better things to do with their time and money (fortunately).

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[TechyImmigrant]

You are free to take your kid out of school and homeschool them if you're scared of government intrusion blah blah blah shut up

You're also free to pull your kid out of school because the teaching is incompetent, the school environment is crap.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[AK Marc]

These aren't intended for big brother spying either.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[tlhIngan]

If these hypothetical people equate RFID badges to the undignified and bovine because it might allow someone to track their movements, I can only assume they also don't work at any place that requires keycards or ID badges for entry (most are RFID-based), carry no credit cards, have no plans on ever leaving the country (passport), don't own a cell phone, do not drive a car (automated number plate recognition), only buy from an increasingly-limited number of stores who don't embed RFID tags in their products for inventory control, and in the near future will have to avoid taking certain drugs (RFID-tagged pills on things like pain medication, etc., for medication management is in the works)...

And the same people are probably posting their location all over Facebook, FourSquare, G+, and all the dozens of other places (including photo location tags). And they carry cellphones, which is a very nice tracking device that a lot of people have. Heck, I bet even the opponents of RFID tracking carry 'em. And tracking systems for phones exist - they may not be able to match a person to a phone serial number, but they can follow that serial number anywhere.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[grumpy_old_grandpa]

Well, where my mate works, the access swipes are timestamped, registered, and stored. Access to the logs are restricted, but in HR related cases, they can look at when you came in, and where you walked.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[sl149q]

Hollywood is on the phone, they want their screenplay back!

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[Anonymous Coward]

But with these RFID badges in schools they are capable of tracking the students movements, knowing where they go and when, and the primary purpose of the badges is monitoring.

I don't see how this is any different from the process of taking roll at the start of each class, not allowing kids to leave without a hall pass, and paying people to stand around in the halls to make sure the kids go where they are supposed to go, and questioning the ones who aren't where they should be. But since we can automate it so that teachers aren't spending 5 minutes of each class taking roll, and don't have to pay for as many hall monitors, suddenly it's the Mark of the Beast and the Nazi's making us wear pieces of Flair.

Now if work places started using badges to monitor how long everyone was at their workspace then you'd certainly see a lot of objections to that spring up.

Oh really? Anybody who works in a call center where you have to punch in/out of your phone, anybody who works in a retail environment where you have to log in/out of your register, etc. anybody who is recorded by camera at work, and plenty of other examples, all are subjected to the same exact thing every day. There are arguments as to how effective such things are in practice, but I haven't seen any kind of worker revolt and have yet to see any Unions getting pissed about it.

The thing you don't understand is that these systems can be used just as effectively to protect your rights as they can to violate them. Boss can't make you work OT without pay, it's all right there on record. Can't claim you were slacking off on break for too long, you've got solid proof otherwise.

There is a vast difference between such systems being used by a private entity and/or in limited situations such as a secured facility, and the government sticking them in the ID card which you have to carry at all times if you don't want to get beat down by the Police.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[WaffleMonster]

carry no credit cards

It not only sounds obviously dangerous and stupid to own a credit card with a NFC tag it has been demonstrated to be dangerous and stupid.

None of my cards have radio tags and that will never change.

have no plans on ever leaving the country (passport),

My passport does not have RFID. If my next one does ebay is your friend. No shortage of rfid blocking wallets and cases. Its your CHOICE.

don't own a cell phone

Cell phones can be turned off.

only buy from an increasingly-limited number of stores who don't embed RFID tags in their products for inventory control

RFID-tagged pills on things like pain medication, etc., for medication management is in the works

Don't confuse the rumblings of industry marketeers with reality.

Pray tell, where do these hypothetical people live, with the Amish? RFID is everywhere. It is a pervasive technology

Lets assume RFID was everywhere what would your point be?

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[khallow]

A student can't opt out of homework either. Better call the civil rights people, sounds like slavery to me.

Well, if the high school had to pay at least minimum wage, it would curtail some of these abuses. A student spends something like 35-40 hours per week in the high school classroom. Let's say 10 hours per week. If in addition they're working a job for say another 10 hours, then that's 55-60 hours of work each week (which is massive especially to the people who claim 40 hour work weeks are too long) and they're only being paid for 10 of them. Plus in too many cases, that work just doesn't prepare them educationally or vocationally. Then it's just a huge chunk of their lives wasted.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[sgunhouse]

If you have to swipe, then it's not RFID.

Everyone has badges these days; ours (at a retail store) are simple barcode. I'm sure some places probably still use magnetic stripes (like on credit cards). The thing with RFID is you don't have to get it out to scan or swipe it (unless of course you carry it in one of those security wallets), if you come close enough to the detector it can read it in your pocket (or on your pocket, for name badges). No need for people to stand in line to swipe their card.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[WaffleMonster]

No, they can't. Secondly, if that's an issue, shield the school so they can never be read through a school wall.

Why do I even bother?

http://blog.makezine.com/2008/02/29/defcon-rfid-world-record/

The issue aint in the school its what happens when kids leave.

A cell phone trigger with someone looking in through a window would work better,

Only better at increasing your chances of getting cought. BTW there was enough concern over these scenarios the US government now includes RFID shields with their RFID passports.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[khallow]

While I feel a knee-jerk reaction against such privacy invasion myself, I am also open to the notion that the only way we will better understand human activity is to study it. As the schools aren't open about any such goal, and probably don't even have one I suppose we can discount it in this case. Data on human activity is of immense worth however, and to stand in the way of harvesting it for no rational reason is akin to religious nuttery.

To elaborate on the point the other replier made, human research in the developed world generally is based on the informed and voluntary consent of the subjects of the research.

As for the dangers of indoctrinating children.

One need only look at student loans in the US. There's a huge disaster brewing there from millions of college students borrowing large amounts (on usurious terms, creating unique debt that cannot be discharged or ameliorated in a bankruptcy proceeding) for the risky process of obtaining a credential with dubious value, the college diploma.

What exactly are the ill effects you perceive of more people knowing your shit? The next generation are telling everybody their shit voluntarily anyway.

And we're seeing some of the more obvious effects, such as losing jobs or relationships because of something that got online (and not necessarily by the intent of the victim).

But I have to ask here, why should I be in favor of a problem that can result in fraud, theft, blackmail, or other crimes against me? Or which can result in powerful entities knowing too much about me and using that to harm me and those I care about?

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[AK Marc]

But the RFIDs aren't about tracking any more than the RFID in my credit card or employee ID tracks my location 24/7.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[TheRaven64]

We've actually run a couple of experiments tracking building use and interaction by using badges that report their position to observe people in the building. In both cases, wearing the badges was entirely opt-in (and required signing a form saying you understood exactly what data would be collected), and even then the ethics committee imposed some restrictions on the data that could be collected and how it had to be anonymised. It amazes me that a deployed system would have far weaker privacy constraints than an experiment.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[AK Marc]

The waste is that it is unenjoyable and uninformative. Education should teach usable skills and the skill of how to learn. That's been lost to test for minutia to prove "teacher quality" by testing history by dates, never cause and effect. Most people coming out of high school don't know the causes of the Civil War (and no, states rights and power of the central government wasn't an issue, it was just those who claimed that were the states who weren't getting what they wanted). But so much of politics now points to revisionist history, and the uneducated don't know the real story. Not to mention the reason college is such a shock for so many is that they haven't been provided the tools to learn.

But when education is provided by the "government" and one party (making up at least half the government) claims to be anti-government, education is being sabotaged on a regular basis.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[Dr Damage I]

If you want to identify yourself and your location to your masters, no one is stopping you. Requiring people to do so is the stuff of totalitarianism: leave me out of it thanks ever so much.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[L4t3r4lu5]

As someone who's admin'd a smart card based access system, I can tell you that I know exactly when you got into the building, when you went for coffee, which route you take through the building and how long you take walking it... I can even tell you if you prefer to take a dump in the morning or afternoon just by which doors you use and when you return through them.

Just because all that you see is "My card lets me through this door, but not through that door" doesn't mean that is the only functionality available. Even better than this, all of this information is logged so it can be used by managers to discuss time management, for example. Big Brother is definitely watching you.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[Dr Damage I]

I'm perfectly happy for an employer to track my whereabouts while I'm at work. Any time I decide I don't want to be tracked, I can simply resign. It's quite another thing for a government run institution, which certain people are required to attend, to require it. Your pretense that there is no distinction between a freely contracted arrangement between free persons and the coercive power of the government is flat dishonest.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[AK Marc]

Why do I even bother?

I don't know. The "world record" is under 70 feet. I found a report of 237 miles for 802.11 (300 ft "nominal", about 5000 times that for a record setup. So 70/5000 = about an inch, if the "world record" ratio holds. And I wouldn't call a one-off world record of 70 feet "long distance

The issue aint in the school its what happens when kids leave.

What about it? Put it in a RFID-blocking case, or leave it in the locker at school. Why, what do you think would happen to children with an RFID on them? And how is it easier to track an RFID than an IMEI?

Only better at increasing your chances of getting cought.

Cheaper, easier, more reliable, but of course, the terrorists are more worried about getting caught. If only reality could penetrate your tinfoil skull.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[AK Marc]

Most of the zero tolerance policies are set by legislators like this one telling schools what they may or may not do with RFID.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[drinkypoo]

They aren't really being used to track the kids either. They "can" and that's enough to set off lots of people

Unfortunately "can" translates to "will" given enough time, we've seen that time and again whether it's forcing kids to take off shirts with religious messages (which has happened) or whether it's this. Employers don't track employees because they won't stand for it. But if we train them to accept it as kids, they sure will. This is the first stage of acceptance training. Remember, our grade school system was not designed to maximize learning. It was designed to produce obedient factory workers and soldiers, and this tendency has only been enhanced since its creation with initiatives like "no child left behind". Yes, we'll send them all to die for the profits of the rich.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[RaceProUK]

posting their location all over Facebook, FourSquare, G+, and all the dozens of other places

By choice.

And they carry cellphones

By choice.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[RabidReindeer]

Because some people have a sense of dignity and object to being treated like cattle.

Sale at Wal-Mart!

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[khallow]

That's been lost to test for minutia to prove "teacher quality"

"Testing for minutia" happens in the first place because of this waste. Cause and effect is flipped.

But when education is provided by the "government" and one party (making up at least half the government) claims to be anti-government, education is being sabotaged on a regular basis.

There's too many disinterested parties to just blame the "anti-government" party. I'll just point out here that there's two parties who have a personal stake in the outcome of education, and a single third party paid to care about that education. None of those parties are the Republican or Libertarian parties.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[gl4ss]

the school made selling point about being able to tell in which section of the school the kids are...

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[Xylantiel]

You're not allowed to make napalm as a hobby because it's too dangerous to your neighbor, maybe you shouldn't be allowed to have unsecured assault rifles with high-capacity magazines in your house because it is too dangerous to your neighbor.

One role of law is to set accepted practice. Ownership and storage of military-grade weapons should be subject to licensing, required standard practice, and inspection for purposes of public safety. Otherwise its not the "militia" that's "well-regulated" it's the kids and the crazies.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[pnutjam]

It starts with badges, in afew years they will glue a tiny device to the base of their skull, in back where the children can not gnaw it free. It will be designed to slough off and be replaced periodically. Then implantable devices start to show up to relieve you of the onerous reattachment procedure...

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[pnutjam]

It sounds like these can be read from a distance of several meters. I doubt the kids are being asked to tap them on a reader when they enter the room.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[TheSpoom]

When I had an RFID badge (in my dark days of doing phone desktop technical support), you had to essentially touch it to the reader to get it to register.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[TheSpoom]

This is true if your workplace is setup to require an RFID swipe to access the bathrooms. I think I would avoid such a workplace.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[mdmkolbe]

Your credit card probably has an RFID too. Your cell phone may even have one.

No, they don't. I know of no major credit card vendor in the US that does this. Same for phones. It would be a major security whole if credit cards did this.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[TheGratefulNet]

we are systematically stripped of honor and dignity all the time.

so, in your view, just give up and accept it??

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[GameboyRMH]

These kids are already on Facebook, anything you could do to make them less averse to privacy invasion would get you labelled a sex offender.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[AK Marc]

"Testing for minutia" happens in the first place because of this waste. Cause and effect is flipped.

So "testing for minutia" caused teacher quality to decline? I'm not sure I understand your point, or your logic behind it.

There's too many disinterested parties to just blame the "anti-government" party.

Well, for one, I don't separate the US Libertarian Party from the Republican Party. You might as well separate out the Tea Party and Republican Party.

The #1 cause is the parents. But the parents are a cause because of the economy. If you exclude the effect of technology, we have a lower standards of living now than 50 years ago. To make up for that loss, so many families are 2-income families now, leaving less time to be involved in children's lives. That lack of involvement was caused by the 1%, and then the 1% that caused it, blames the government. The whole things is circular and the 1% is behind most of it (including controlling all the major parties, no matter which one you hate, the 1% largely funds them).

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[PlusFiveTroll]

The adults are employees. The children are the (forced by state) customers.

I'd be pretty pissed off if I had to carry a tracker on me when I went in to a store to shop.

Oh, and I don't work at a place that has RFID cards.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[PlusFiveTroll]

You lack imagination. You don't have to have RFID on the bathroom door. Just put it on the doors that access the hallway the bathroom is in. Of course that depends on the building design.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[RaceProUK]

bullshit

FTFY

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[khallow]

So "testing for minutia" caused teacher quality to decline?

No, I'm sure that testing came about as a response to decline in teacher quality. Hence, why I made my comment above. You were saying that the usefulness of education was lost to testing for minutia. I merely noted that the testing came well after the loss of usefulness started.

Well, for one, I don't separate the US Libertarian Party from the Republican Party.

Why not? They are pretty distinct groups.

You might as well separate out the Tea Party and Republican Party.

Which are also fairly distinct.

The #1 cause is the parents.

[...]

That lack of involvement was caused by the 1%

Can't keep the story straight, eh? Well, I can understand the need to blame someone unpopular for our faults. But doing so is harmful since we then don't actually fix those faults. Obsessing about the one percent isn't going to make parents any more responsible for their children.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[WaffleMonster]

I don't know. The "world record" is under 70 feet. I found a report of 237 miles for 802.11 (300 ft "nominal", about 5000 times that for a record setup. So 70/5000 = about an inch, if the "world record" ratio holds. And I wouldn't call a one-off world record of 70 feet "long distance

By this logic the earth is only ~91 million miles from the sun. 91 million miles is not a long distance since pluto is ~3 billion miles from the sun.

WTF does wifi have to do with rfid?

Note also some schools have deployed active badges with batteries not just passive system.

What about it? Put it in a RFID-blocking case, or leave it in the locker at school.

Except the readers are on the buses too.

the terrorists are more worried about getting caught. If only reality could penetrate your tinfoil skull.

Who said anything about terrorists? Not everyone has the luxury of not having to look over their shoulder or assuming there is not someone out to get them. How many protective orders are issued in the US every year?

It is especially sad considering across the board driver of RFID is not loosing out on taxpayer dollars due to politics of how attendance is counted. Taxpayers deserve better than schemes which waste taxpayer dollars in order for institutions to be allocated more.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[AK Marc]

Note also some schools have deployed active badges with batteries not just passive system.

Which places the devices outside the mainstream definition of "RFID".

It is especially sad considering across the board driver of RFID is not loosing out on taxpayer dollars due to politics of how attendance is counted. Taxpayers deserve better than schemes which waste taxpayer dollars in order for institutions to be allocated more.

The anti-government nuts complain when the government is inefficient. The anti-government nuts complain when the government is efficient. A school needs to be efficient, right? And if their revenue comes from proving seat time, then it increases revenue to demonstrate more seat time. If you increase revenue more than you increase expenses, then it's a sound financial decision.

The problem isn't the school forcing RFID, but the legislators (like the one proposing this ban) that made the silly rules the school has to operate under. Almost all the problems with schools can be traced back to stupid laws, and the legislators who point the finger at the educators while passing more stupid laws harming our school-aged children. If the legislators have been causing a problem for 50 years straight, the real issue is the voters.

So anyone who complains about the schools need look no further than the mirror to see the source of the problem (or look at their parents if they are too young).

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[AK Marc]

Why not? They are pretty distinct groups.

Not from what I've seen. Both the teabaggers (I have documentation from when they called themselves that, and no revisionist history will get me to stop calling them what they asked to be called) and LP are almost 100% ex-Republicans, most teabaggers even run on the GOP ticket.

Can't keep the story straight, eh? Well, I can understand the need to blame someone unpopular for our faults. But doing so is harmful since we then don't actually fix those faults. Obsessing about the one percent isn't going to make parents any more responsible for their children.

What faults? I left the USA when I had children to move to a country that doesn't use children as pawns in political moves. The schools are better than the US , the health care is free, and the jobs are more plentiful and pay better.

That I'm trying to help you fix the shithole of a country you live in somehow makes me the bad guy. The 1% provides pressure that removes the parent's ability to be involved. The parents still have a choice, and at the end, it's still their responsibility, even if the 1% sets up barriers. My children are getting a better education than yours, and at a lower cost. I pay less for health care as well (the portion of my tax that covers me is less than what I paid in the US to cover medicare, and I get better medical care than in the US).

I finally listened to one of the jackasses who chants "love it or leave it" and went somewhere with lower taxes and a higher standard of living. And no, I'm not saying where, because if I did, someone would argue the points by selecting skewed numbers friendly to their cause. It's not an argument worth having. The US is not the best country to live in, and hasn't been for years. Anyone capable of moving should.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[maccodemonkey]

Except that most ID badges aren't being used to track where I am at the office. They aren't being used to see if I'm there at work, they're being used to let me into the building, more of a virtual key. There's a HUGE difference between an electronic key and being treated like cattle.

If you don't think your entries and exists aren't being logged to track your movements, you're in for a surprise. Businesses always log this for security reasons.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[fredprado]

Which are all invasive and should be able to be opted out. If you are OK with it good for you, but nobody should be forced to accept it. Any device able to track a person should never be mandatory.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[khallow]

Both the teabaggers (I have documentation from when they called themselves that, and no revisionist history will get me to stop calling them what they asked to be called)

So what? They changed their mind. I'm sure you got the memo.

Further, what's this about "documentation"? Do you think there's some court or bureaucracy out there that audits your insults? "I'm sorry sir, but you cannot use the insult 'incoherent, drooling cocksucker' because the adjective 'drooling' is insensitive to hypersalivation sufferers and hence prohibited by the Americans with Disabilities Act".

I finally listened to one of the jackasses who chants "love it or leave it" and went somewhere with lower taxes and a higher standard of living. And no, I'm not saying where, because if I did, someone would argue the points by selecting skewed numbers friendly to their cause. It's not an argument worth having. The US is not the best country to live in, and hasn't been for years. Anyone capable of moving should.

No offense, but that sounds good for everyone. When I read about your advocacy of unfocused "meat space" DDoS attacks (the example given was creating traffic jams in a public intersection), frankly, I'd rather that you be doing that sort of thing somewhere else and hurting some other country's society not mine.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[SplashMyBandit]

The only thing which beggars belief is that you would be OK with the school telling you that they have no idea where your child is or what they are doing.

There are ways and means of doing what you say without resorting to a tracking mechanism that works outside the school. Note also that the tracking mechanism can easily be spoofed (get your mates to carry it for you while you abscond, is that ridiculously easy to do or what?). If you are unconcerned about tracking then why don't you post as someone other than an Anonymous Coward? that way we can search for your posts across the whole Interwebz. Privacy matters, privacy is a right, and it is good to oppose invasions of privacy. The school clearly overstepped their mandate in this case - too bad some wannabe serfs can see that (not only does the school have no right to invade your privacy without special authorization, neither does the Government - what you do as a law-abiding citizen is simply not their business unless they get a judicially-approved warrant).

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[AK Marc]

No offense, but that sounds good for everyone.

You deserve all you get. No really. You deserve what's coming to you.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[rpstrong]

RFID in credit cards is uncommon in the US, but much more prevalent in Europe. RFID in cell phones is more likely to be found in Android phones, but is spreading to other platforms. Actual cases of consumers being exploited by this "major security hole" are essentially nil - snopes.com as a good recap: http://www.snopes.com/fraud/identity/pickpocket.asp

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[nobaloney]

When I had an RFID badge (in my dark days of doing phone desktop technical support), you had to essentially touch it to the reader to get it to register.

I think they've gotten a bit better now; otherwise I wouldn't get charged on the toll-road.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[lsatenstein]

With kids, as with adults, you borrow a badge when you need to pee, or leave to another department. Kids will swap badges to defeat the system.

In the end, I believe that the badges do not add to security in schools. In my grandkids school, all doors are locked, and there is a doorbell that rings in the principals office when someone has to come to pick up a child, or when a child arrives late.

Pickup of a child requires a signin and proof that the parent authorized the pickup (My daughter tells the principal I am OK to take my granddaughter home or to the dentist or to a pediatrician.

What would RFID tags add?

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[khallow]

What we have here is the fallacy of argument from karma. That's the last refuge of religious nutcases. You keep fine company.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[AK Marc]

What are you talking about? You believe in the US and choose to not leave when you are able. You deserve to be in the US for the imminent fall. It's not karma, it's a choice. Choosing to pick up a hot pan without an oven mitt isn't karma burning your hand, it's object stupidity. But your knee-jerk defenses make it obvious that you suspect you are wrong, but don't want to believe it. Keep your head in the sand. No, the pan isn't that hot, it won't hurt.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[khallow]

You believe in the US and choose to not leave when you are able.

Yes. I chose to bear what may follow.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[AK Marc]

So you are the one asserting the karmic religious belief, not me. You believe in the US so much you choose to accept what comes, and I change that slightly to say not only do you choose what follows, but you deserve what comes with it. And somehow there's something wrong with my statement, but nothing wrong with yours? Is that like "I can call myself [insert racial slur] because I am one, but you can't call me that!"?

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[khallow]

You believe in the US so much you choose to accept what comes, and I change that slightly to say not only do you choose what follows, but you deserve what comes with it.

Not at all. I believe merely, that I should try to make my society better than just give up on it. It's also where most of my friends and family are, so I have a vested interest as well.

Re:Can someone remind me why this is sinister?

[AK Marc]

I was sent a thing about the debt ceiling from someone today. One of the punch lines was "if the sewer backed up and your house was full of shit, would you try to stop the leak and start cleaning up, or raise the ceiling" I laughed and said "I'd move."

I've tried to make the society better, but the problem is step one is to make a few billion dollars. Until you complete step 1, you won't be able to complete step 2, whatever that is. I've gotten involved in local parties, and found the attendees to be unpalatable (it was the Republicans in Alaska that vaulted Palin to "power", and I went to meetings with those people, and of the choices, she was surprisingly average, aside from being an ex-miss something-or-other, as well as having actual previous experience).

All of my family lives in my house, or in the US. And I did this for them. I've only got one more year until I have a citizenship somewhere else, so when things get bad, they will have another option. I'm doing it for them (even if only partially), even if they don't believe it's going to be that bad.

If your society will not get better no matter what you did, what would you do? I think picking a better society to join is a reasonable answer. I've been told many times that one of the strengths of the US is being able to move states to pick one that better suits you. So why is there a problem with shopping countries? Once we settle that, we can tackle the tougher question of whether the US is fixable, and if so, what one person can do about it.

Redundant Redundancy

[sgt scrub]

The large Texas schools have a 1 to 1 program (all kids have laptops). If they are not able to trace an object a kid wouldn't leave laying around why would they think they could trace something a kid would ditch first chance they get?

Can you really not figure out what comes next?

[Anonymous Coward]

What do you think the school authorities will require after they find the youth doing just what you propose? Oh, that's right, they'll demand that the tags be implanted so they can't be easily "misplaced".

Re:Can you really not figure out what comes next?

[Goaway]

Remember, if somebody you don't like hasn't actually done anything bad, you can just make something up and accuse them of that!

Re:Can you really not figure out what comes next?

[fredprado]

That is how US laws are designed. The average lawful citizen commits three felonies a day. It is simply impossible to live without breaking any law. Your only protection is the lack of evidence about most of them. Make available more information about you and basically the government can put you to jail at its discretion.

Re:Can you really not figure out what comes next?

[Jarik C-Bol]

while it was a fun idea, the book that talked about that really never proved its statement.

Re:Can you really not figure out what comes next?

[fredprado]

There were several books that talked about that, not a single one. And even if they are all statistically wrong (or even didn't make any statistical analysis) you just need to glimpse the Federal Law Code to understand that it is simply impossible to follow all the laws. I leave you with an interesting video on the subject:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

Re:Can you really not figure out what comes next?

[Xeranar]

Three FELONIES a day? Most people commit two misdemeanors a day, one is a traffic violation the other is jaywalking or littering. Felonies are fairly serious crimes and music downloading is a felony perhaps, the crime is still young in legal terms, we could change. /. is just getting stupider every day.

Re:Can you really not figure out what comes next?

[SplashMyBandit]

Fantastic link. Thanks for that.

Re:Can you really not figure out what comes next?

[fredprado]

Educate yourself:

http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594035229

http://www.amazon.com/Go-Directly-Jail-Criminalization-Everything/dp/1930865635/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y

http://www.amazon.com/The-Tyranny-Good-Intentions-Constitution/dp/0307396061/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_z

Re:Can you really not figure out what comes next?

[Dahan]

One of the reviews of Three Felonies a Day says, "I watched a Stossel episode and this author stated that the average person commits (unknowingly) three felonies a day. I was skeptical. I was right! I can not find anywhere in this book anything about 3 a day. I might have missed that section. It is not in the table of C. I skim read the whole book. If its in here it's a very small part of the book. If I am wrong will someone PLEASE let me know. TYVM Love JR."

I agree with #42542107--most people don't commit 3 felonies a day. Perhaps 3 misdemeanors, but not felonies. Perhaps you could give an example of one felony that many people commit?

Re:Can you really not figure out what comes next?

[RaceProUK]

True. It's not like you can just turn off the GPS.

Oh wait, you can.

Re:Can you really not figure out what comes next?

[fredprado]

Read the book. Then come criticize it. Do not argument based on a review...

Re:Can you really not figure out what comes next?

[Grishnakh]

How about you provide some real examples before I go buy the book? You seem to be a plant, trying to get people to buy a book so you can profit from it.

Re:Can you really not figure out what comes next?

[mcgrew]

The average lawful citizen commits three felonies a day.

I've seen this "statistic" often but I've never seen any logic or citations to back it up. Can you provide some, or should I simply remain skeptical?

Re:Can you really not figure out what comes next?

[fredprado]

Just check the link for a youtube video I posted on the subject in this same thread. There are a few examples there, or if you really want to go deep check the US Federal Law Code.

Re:Can you really not figure out what comes next?

[Grishnakh]

Is it really that hard to write a few lines with everyday examples, rather than asking me to spend 15 minutes watching some advertising video?

Re:Can you really not figure out what comes next?

[Grishnakh]

You're the one who seems to be trying to advertise here, not me.

Re:Can you really not figure out what comes next?

[fredprado]

Fixing the laws is certainly a good idea, but even with perfect laws it is always possible to abuse of information. Furthermore governments with more access to information tend to become more powerful and authoritative not less, so the chances of fixing the laws actually diminish as their wealthy of information grows.

Absolute privacy is an illusion. Limited privacy is not, but the moment you stop to worry about 'limited' becomes more and more limited as time go. There must be a compromise between the efficiency of communication and its invasiveness. If the price you pay for perfect communication means that anything you do will be watched by the government it is simply not worth the price.

Re:Can you really not figure out what comes next?

[fredprado]

You can be skeptical about the exact value. It is certainly a reasonable position. But, regardless of the precision of the figure, you just need a glimpse on US Federal Law Code and your state Criminal Code to understand the idea. If you are ever curious about it, just check the said codes and count how many felonies you have committed in the last year. You will be surprised.

Re:Can you really not figure out what comes next?

[mcgrew]

OK, name one felony that an otherwise law-abiding citizen would commit (with the exception of smoking pot, which is a misdemeanor or less in most places).

Re:Can you really not figure out what comes next?

[fredprado]

Some examples can be found here:

http://www.threefeloniesaday.com/Youtoo/tabid/86/Default.aspx

This is just a few among many many more. Even if none of them apply to you, some other certainly will. The restaurant example is specially scary.

Re:Can you really not figure out what comes next?

[mcgrew]

I didn't see the one about the restaurant, maybe they deleted it. The rest (only nine of them) are pretty much a stretch. The church child porn one was about an incredibly stupid lawyer.

I can't see myself breaking any of those, although the Lacy Act one was a bit chilling. But three a day? Three a decade, maybe.

Re:Can you really not figure out what comes next?

[fredprado]

The restaurant was the first one: "Violation of Foreign Law (The Lacey Act)". Basically the owner of a restaurant was convicted because she bought Lobsters which were shipped in clear plastic bags from Honduras, which was a minor contravention by Honduran Laws at the time. It was not against any US laws, and actually not against any Honduran laws anymore at the time of her arrest, a fact the Honduran government pointed out to the US 11th Circuit Court of Appeal. Furthermore it was never a felony in Honduras. Still she was considered a felon and convicted to 2 years of prison by the US court.

Anyway these are just 9 examples from a myriad of others and there is plenty of literature referring to that. But apparently you are looking for excuses not for information. Suit yourself. You can keep believing in whatever you want, that is, until it happens to you. Good luck.

Negative Ghostrider...

[Anonymous Coward]

... she's a conservative Texas politician who actually wants to do something to curb the out-of-control expansion of statist government bureaucrats.

We need more like her. It's time to start shrinking this "Feed me Seymour, Feed Me!" little shop of horrors that our government has become before it devours all of our rights and liberties.

Re:Negative Ghostrider...

[AK Marc]

She's adding laws (more government regulation) to fix the problem of too much government regulation?

Bah, skip it!

[Tablizer]

Trying to ban RTFA? Sounds good to me.

I love how...

[Anubis IV]

I love how /. rightfully rails against the erosion of rights that occurred as a result of the decision in Andrea Hernandez' case, but then the first comments here are almost all attacking the bill's intent and the representative as being a religious nut from Texas. Whether that's true or not (I don't know this representative, so I couldn't say, nor have I read the article or bills) is irrelevant.

Religion doesn't always have to be against what the /. groupthink believes is right. In this case, religious nuts may be off-base, but they came to the right conclusion regardless. Even if their math doesn't add up correctly, we can all agree that it's the right solution.

*said by a deeply religious person who thinks the religious nuts in this whole mess really are nuts*

Re:I love how...

[TooMuchToDo]

RFID tags in school IDs isn't an erosion of rights unless you're a crackpot. These same students will have RFID tags in their driver's license when they're old enough to drive and if their state has enhanced ID systems.

Re:I love how...

[Anubis IV]

You do realize that citing more examples of ways that our right to privacy is already being infringed or violated is not exactly a great way to make your point, right?

Re:I love how...

[SourceFrog]

Well there we go, only a "crackpot" would object to being tagged and tracked like cattle. I tell you what, since you say there is nothing wrong with it, why don't you let me tag and track you, your wife and kids? Oh you don't like that, what's the matter, are you some sort of crackpot?

Re:I love how...

[TooMuchToDo]

I'm ok with that. My passport already has an RFID tag, my electronic toll device on all of my vehicles, my debit card, my american express charge card.

So yeah, get with the times gramps. "OH NOES! Devices on us can track us when they encounter an RFID reader within a few feet of our person!" Going to get rid of your cellphone? The same one that has its location based on cell tower triangulation recorded constantly and the data is provided to law enforcement without a warrant?

Re:I love how...

[TooMuchToDo]

Can you explain to me how an RFID tag is any more of a violation of your right to privacy than being constantly filmed/taped in public? Because courts have already ruled for quite a while that you have no expectation of privacy in public (as you shouldn't). You may not agree, but I fall on the side that "If you're in public, it's public". I say that now, and I say that under the assumption that in the future everything I do in public will be recorded by hundreds of different sensors, devices, and cameras.

What are you going to do? Hide in your house?

Re:I love how...

[Rockoon]

Lets examine your argument from another angle, shall we?

Are you suggesting that the mandatory implanting of RFID tags in everyone is only bad because its a form of surgery, that its not a privacy violation?

Now show me your papers, please.

Re:I love how...

[fredprado]

The more devices like this you have attached to you the less likely you will get any privacy. The fact that some exist, and some are even mandatory, does not make it acceptable to impose more. Actually even those mandatory ones, like passports, are abusive in my view.

If you opt for being tracked it is your choice, but nobody should be forced to accept it.

Re:I love how...

[Rockoon]

If your credit and debit cards have RFID's so many years after they were discovered to be flawed and a huge security risk, then maybe you are a complete idiot.

Re:I love how...

[fredprado]

Simple. Camera information will be used when something happens at some public place and people go there looking for the registers. You can't single the films /tapes of a given person. It is much less invasive than a RFID that can trace all your movements and position in a given environment, and bring information like:

- Mr Anderson was alone with Miss Smith at the same physical spot for 30 min in the corridor, this morning.

- Jane Doe went to the bathroom 15 times today.

- Mr Black was talking with these three people who are affiliated with the communist party this afternoon

- Miss Parks talked alone for 40 min with the reporter that made that article saying bad things about our university.

Re:I love how...

[Anubis IV]

What are you going to do? Hide in your house?

You say that as if it isn't what I already do when left to myself. ;)

More seriously though, the sort of RFID being used in the Andrea Hernandez case had all sorts of issues that don't apply to videotaping in public. For instance, that type of RFID (battery powered, active RFID) could be read from rather large distances, meaning that it would be trivial to check and see if someone was at home or at a particular place (think wardriving, but looking for a lack of RFID rather than looking for a presence of WiFi). It's trivial to imagine ways that this sort of RFID could be abused while a person is not in public and should have an expectation of privacy. Additionally, while a face is fairly difficult to duplicate, it's not that hard to clone an RFID tag, allowing someone else to spoof my identity if they so chose, thus opening me up to an additional form of identity theft that could hit a lot closer to home, depending on what that particular RFID tag is being used for. As a result, I may prefer to not use RFID while still being perfectly comfortable being filmed.

And while I may not have an expectation of privacy while in public, I am not legally obligated to broadcast personally identifiable information to anyone that can read it, which is what you seem to think is commonplace and acceptable. Unless a police officer stops me and asks me for my identity, I do not need to provide it to anyone, but modern RFID chips can and sometimes do contain not only a name, birthdate, and birthplace, but also a picture of the person and a whole lot more (e.g. U.S. passports).

Now, mind you, I'm not some anti-RFID crackpot, as you seem to think. I have an RFID fob on my keychain to get in the door at work, I have an RFID card in my car to get me through the front gate of a neighborhood I visit regularly, and I have one of the newer U.S. passports with RFID built in. I have no problems using any of those, nor can I recall ever having chosen to not provide my identity when a situation came up. Despite that, however, I still believe that it's important to stand up for the rights we have, even if we aren't actively exercising them, otherwise those rights will disappear and something that may be more important to us will be the next one getting eroded.

Re:I love how...

[tompaulco]

Because it doesn't matter if you have the best idea in the world, if you believe in God, your idea needs to be ridiculed and shot down. Remember, you should judge people based on their religion, not on their actions.

Re:I love how...

[Anubis IV]

I'll repeat: you do realize that citing more examples of ways that our right to privacy is already being infringed or violated is not exactly a great way to make your point, right?

Just because cell phones can track us does not mean that it's acceptable for them to be doing so. Just because one abuse has occurred does not mean we must tolerate more. Just because you're okay with sacrificing a right you don't exercise does not mean that others of us who also don't exercise it feel that the right should be sacrificed so readily.

This isn't a matter of getting with the times. These same issues existed in every "Papers, please" society and have been around for decades, if not centuries. The technology may have changed, but the problem hasn't changed, and our obligation is to defend our rights, even if we're not using them, so that they are still available to future generations. If anything, you're the one out of touch.

Re:I love how...

[AK Marc]

If it is a violation of rights, why does it already happen in so many other ways for so many other people? Sounds like it is not a violation of rights, but is a continuance of acceptable monitoring.

Re:I love how...

[fermion]

In this case though it matters. This bill was put forth last time in the 82 session and failed. The main purpose of the 82nd session was to defund public schools, create charters that funnel taxpayer money to religious groups, and limit the health care of teens.

The republican platform in texas is explicitly against the teaching of critical thinking. This is problem solving. How can we have a geek culture without problem solving. When we are talking about the religious nuts trying to destroy america, this is what we are talking about.

This bill is aimed to take local control away form the school districts and concentrate it in the megalomaniacal GOB texas lege.

Re:I love how...

[AK Marc]

All of that is available on video today. The only difference is it's harder to extract it.

Re:I love how...

[AK Marc]

It's not my liability. If the bank is willing to accept the risk, why should I care?

Re:I love how...

[fredprado]

No, not all of it is available on video today. There are not cameras everywhere, especially in bathrooms. Even in the corridor example it would be a simple matter to avoid a camera.

And even the information were the same, it makes all the difference in the world how easy is to index it. I would challenge you to find all the video records made by city cameras that contain Jane Doe in the last month. Good luck with that. Even with high end image recognition algorithms you will be hard pressed to get even a good percentage of them. Now if you want to do this before you are suspecting that someone specifically did something it gets even harder, because you would have do this with everybody.

The harder it is to get information from you the more privacy you get, it doesn't really matter if the motive is because the information does not exist or because it is really hard to data mine it.

Re:I love how...

[Rockoon]

It's not my liability.

Who convinced you of that?

Re:I love how...

[AK Marc]

The written contract that came with the card limiting my liability to $0.

Re:I love how...

[AK Marc]

Video is much much more invasive if you know who you are tracking before you start. RFID is easier to pull up months of data to track, but, having been RFID tracked at lots of different companies over the last 10+ years (in some cases, I was in IT running the tracking), RFID is mostly useless for anything more than when someone got in and when they left. Which is no more than what they want from the students.

Re:I love how...

[Rockoon]

In the case of debit cards, thats in the event of the card being stolen, and you reporting it in a timely manner.

We arent talking about the card being stolen. We are talking about the cards information being copied and abused, and in the case of a debit card, the cards information are the keys to your checking account. Thats not a debit transaction that took all your money.

Re:I love how...

[TooMuchToDo]

My Platinum American Express was possibly skimmed when I flew from Chicago to Amsterdam a month ago; someone tried to use the information (not the card, the information) on Amazon, as well as at a hotel in Columbia. American Express immediately locked the card down, overnighted me a new card at no cost to myself, and told me I wasn't liable for any transactions I didn't make).

After your comment, I checked with my bank (PNC); they said I'm not liable *whatsoever* for any charges I did not make, whether the card was used or just the card information (card number, expiration).

Also, with a debit card, it's run as a Visa/Mastercard credit transaction when the RFID chip is not used, not as a PIN ACH/Debit transaction. Once again, zero liability for the cardholder.

Re:I love how...

[TooMuchToDo]

You have yet to outline how having an RFID chip in a school ID or a driver's license is a violation of someone's privacy.

Re:I love how...

[sl149q]

Or simply having hall monitors and school guards just actually watching kids enter and exit...

If you are really worried about privacy I'm not sure how you can not complain about the teacher taking attendance. That is also an invasion of your privacy.

Re:I love how...

[sl149q]

If you don't think that facial recognition software couple with (lots of ) HD video cameras can't do exactly the same as an RFID chip you are simply smoking something illegal (except maybe in Seattle and Denver sort of.) Just more expensive.

Re:I love how...

[khallow]

Sounds like it is not a violation of rights, but is a continuance of acceptable monitoring.

Just because an activity is widespread doesn't imply it is not an violation of rights. It's also worth noting that most of these "acceptable monitoring" efforts are voluntary. You chose to carry the RFID. Here. there are significant penalties, if the student doesn't go to school. And the student isn't going to school without an RFID chip apparently.

Re:I love how...

[AK Marc]

Wow, what are next weeks lotto numbers? You apparently not only know I'm wrong, but you know exactly what's in my card agreement. Well, maybe I don't want the lotto numbers from you, you are completely wrong. I have a $0 liability limit for "unauthorized" use, explicitly including Internet purchases (a purchase in the case where I hold the card, but didn't authorize the transaction).

And yes, I did have an issue once, and I called and said I didn't authorize it, and poof, the card was canceled, another was on the way, and the charge was reversed. $0 liability.

Re:I love how...

[AK Marc]

The school offered her a non-RFID when she sued. As far as I can tell, anyone can get one now by threatening to sue as well (at least at that one RFID-mandatory case). And, of course, the Conservatives encourage home-schooling to keep people out of the government institutions, but when talking about the ills, everyone *must* send their children to public school.

Re:I love how...

[Dr Damage I]

I'll complain when they make me carry the teacher with me. I don't get why the boundary here is so hard to see for people who don't want to see it... wait... Never mind.

Re:I love how...

[McGruber]

These same students will have RFID tags in their driver's license when they're old enough to drive and if their state has enhanced ID systems.

I keep my driver's license inside a sleeve that prevents the RFID from being scanned.... the students can't do that with badges they are supposed to wear.

Re:I love how...

[fredprado]

It is not impossible, as I already said, but It is more expensive, takes more time, it is less precise and it is prohibitively costly to do with everybody to data mine, that is unless you have suspicious in advance it won't be used, unlike RFID. Furthermore video information has far less specific information about individuals. Not that I like video surveillance, but RFID surveillance is much much worse.

Re:I love how...

[fredprado]

Video is not more invasive per se. It depends on the circumstance. Video is another media. It usually has more information about that specific place filmed but it has much less time coverage and less information over a single individual. Additionally it can be avoided. The fact that, in your experience, RFID has not been abused to do things like I exemplified above does not mean it cannot be done. Allowing others to have power over you like this is never a good idea.

Re:I love how...

[Rockoon]

Wow, what are next weeks lotto numbers? You apparently not only know I'm wrong, but you know exactly what's in my card agreement.

You are saying that it says that you have "zero liability limit for unauthorized use" yet you are missing the fact that we arent talking about your cards use. We are talking about your account being drained through a simple electronic transfer while you still have possession of your card. Surely your contract also tells you that you have zero liability for unauthorized electronic transfers, right?

..and surely it defined "unauthorized" as "everything that he claimed he didnt authorize"

You are a fool that will one day be parted with your money, and will cry about corporations screwing you over and not living up to their contracts.. when in fact you were just a fool that attributed more to a contract than was actually in it.

Re:I love how...

[Anubis IV]

Yeah, it's an old screen name that I stopped using everywhere else years ago. And I had an interest in the Egyptian pantheon at the time, so sue me. :P

Re:I love how...

[tompaulco]

Well I think it sucks that she made this decision based on religion, too, because now nobody is siding with her on it, and they should be. However, she can't very well just say "I don't want to wear it just because", although she should be able to. The religious angle is jut about the only way out for protesting intrusive government invasion of privacy.

Re:I love how...

[Anubis IV]

I already provided examples in response to another one of your comments of ways that RFID chips can be used to provide personally identifiable information without the wearer's knowledge while in public, which is not something that we are obligated to provide, or else can be used to track the wearer.

Re:I love how...

[Anubis IV]

The conversation was not merely about RFID in schools by the point where I made my comment, hence why it mentioned things that were not specific to the situation at hand. You are, of course, correct that some of the topics I brought up are entirely separate issues.

As for checking school IDs in and out, that would indeed solve a number of problems. It'd also create a massive bottleneck every single morning, however, one which I doubt they would be willing to tolerate.

Re:I love how...

[AK Marc]

You missed the part where I said I used it and it worked as advertised.

When reality conflicts with some random Internet loon, reality wins.

Try arguing with someone that doesn't know how to read their card agreement (And hasn't had many cards over his life, and used those clauses before).

A confession

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok, I am a geek, and I still have to admit having one big question about RFID:
1. Does RFID designate a *specific* wireless communication protocol (like Say WiFi 801.11n) with a specific frequency, power range, modulation and encoding technique, etc. or ...
2. Does it just mean close range wireless in general?

For example, Android phones that support "NFC" seem to support a specific NFC standard (listed in Wikipedia). Many Japanese Android phones in Japan do *not* support "NFC" (as in programs that support NFC won't install on them), but support Sony's Felica standard (called "Osaifu keitai" by Docomo), widely deployed in Japan and other places. I don't think the employee badge I use to get into my building at work is compatible with NFC smartphones or Felica technology, but I am certain that it's radio-wave based - so is that "NFC"?

The reason I ask is that I sometimes see NFC meaning a specific thing, and other times it seems to be a catch-all for any near range wireless. The term itself seems to be generic, rather than a trademark. This becomes important when you start making laws about it, because the schools could easily say "Ok, we'll use brand X local radio tags instead of NFC.", or even "ok, we'll use bar-coded tags or BlueTooth tags".

Whatever method they use, I personally don't have a problem with a school keeping track of attendance in an automated way - but they should have humans checking it too, since students can easily carry other students' ID cards.

Re:A confession

[SourceFrog]

Whatever method they use, I personally don't have a problem with a school keeping track of attendance in an automated way

The problem with this statement is you're stating that you don't mind them doing it to the kids of other parents. You're "consenting" on their behalf for something done to them. That's about as meaningful as saying "I consent to slavery because I'm not black". It's one thing to consent to your own kids being tracked, but I think the school should at least have to get permission from every parent, and not track those who do not give permission. Actually, I'm not even sure that goes far enough; kids do have some rights that are outside the domain of parental consent.

Re:A confession

[Murdoch5]

RFID is a really cool wireless system, you should take a look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio-frequency_identification. I have a team that was going to use it in an interesting way to help navigate environments.

Re:A confession

[DontScotty]

" but I think the school should at least have to get permission from every parent, and not track those who do not give permission."

That was exactly the reason this was tossed out.

They offered an accommodation, which she/her
family/All Mighty Zombie Jesus/etc DECLINED.

Any other student at the school would be allowed the
same offered accommodation.

Re:A confession

[Mitreya]

They offered an accommodation, which she/her family/All Mighty Zombie Jesus/etc DECLINED.

Part of the condition was her carrying the badge around anyway (no battery) and never talking about or objecting to the program.

That's hardly a very friendly concession -- they were willing to make an exception for her if she fully pretends to support the program and never voices any objections again. Why should she be required to pretend that this system is acceptable just so that an exception is made for her??

Re:A confession

[AK Marc]

. Does RFID designate a *specific* wireless communication protocol (like Say WiFi 801.11n) with a specific frequency, power range, modulation and encoding technique, etc. or ...

No

Does it just mean close range wireless in general?

A few years ago, yes. Currently, no.

If you RFID tag your pet in the US, that tag will likely be unreadable outside the US. There are multiple competing standards, and the US, like usual, picks an incompatible standard. RFID has many definitions, I would think that "passively powered radio" is one of the more common definitions. A number of them aren't even radio. A few work like airport metal detectors. Induce a magnetic field, and measure the response. That magnetic induction and reading can be completely without "radio" and still be RFID, from many's definitions of it. Though, many early RFID included batteries and were active systems.

RFID is still mostly undefined in that there are multiple definitions and no single definition.

Re:A confession

[AK Marc]

They didn't explicitly ask for consent for them to track my children with "roll call". Someone could get the roll and know where the children are, so where's my explicit opt-in for that fascist "roll-call"?

Re:A confession

[Uberbah]

They didn't explicitly ask for consent for them to track my children with "roll call". Someone could get the roll and know where the children are, so where's my explicit opt-in for that fascist "roll-call"?

What are you babbling on about. Attendance != electronic tracking. I suppose you're one of those morans who sees no difference between automated face scanners at football games and stationing cops by the entrance. Willfully ignoring the fact that you'd be out of a cop's short term memory in about 3 seconds, vs staying in a searchable law enforcement database until it's purged.

Re:A confession

[AK Marc]

Electronic tracking is for attendance only. It *is* attendance, by definition.

Re:A confession

[SourceFrog]

If it was really just for attendance tracking, then there would clearly be no need to use the cattle tags - just do it the old-fashioned way. Why do you feel the need to lie to promote something?

Re:A confession

[Senior Frac]

Part of the condition was her carrying the badge around anyway (no battery) and never talking about or objecting to the program.

A lie.

The letter from the district, posted on Infowars no less, showed no such condition for stopping the disenrollment. She merely had to wear the [chipless] id.

The family's story has since changed, upon further questioning by real journalists, to that they believe carrying the [chipless] id would be the same as condoning the program.

Re:A confession

[AK Marc]

Because it's not a lie. Why do you lie to call others a liar without addressing the issues? The old-fashioned way was fine, losing 5-10 minutes of every class to calling roll (10% of the day), then complaining that so much time was spent on administration that education wasn't happening. The new way, when the bell sounds, the teacher teaches, but we can't have that. Right?

My View

[Murdoch5]

RFID can have its place in schools, for young kids I think it's a great idea, for teens not so much. However another interesting point is that RFID tags could introduce a new level of security in schools. If you have 200 kids and teachers all armed with RFID tags then you can simply lock the doors for the day and not let anyone else in, why is this a good idea? Simple school shooters, they can't get in the school so potentially you create a safer environment. Another great feature is being able to detect if your kids is skipping school or not! No more attendance and calls home.

Now as for people who have privacy issues with it, I can understand where your coming from however when you want to argue it DO NOT QUOTE RELIGION! The entire issue I have with Andrea is that she tried to being her faith as a reason to not wear a badge. You can't use this kind of argument, if you allow it then you must allow EVERY SINGLE religion based argument with no issue. I could just as easily state that my religion states I must bring semi automatic guns into the classroom and as soon as I say that you have to allow it! Or I could say something like I don't allow people of color in the classroom, then you need to make accommodations. Hence why I think when you fall back to religion as an argument you don't make a good case.

If your arguments however are focused on privacy and personal space and all of that then you have a case to fight and I'll stand behind you. Pick logic over god and I'll stand there and agree with you, pick god over logic and your out before you start. If RFID can be brought into the classroom with out invading the privacy of students and without being used as a means to an end of targeted advertising then it's a good idea!

Re:My View

[Mitreya]

Another great feature is being able to detect if your kids is skipping school or not!

Ignoring the privacy issues, what is it that makes you think that 200 RFID tags on school premises equals 200 kids? All that tells you is that there is 1 or more kids in school and these kids are carrying around 200 RFID tags.

Re:My View

[rally2xs]

Oh, the school shooter can't get in the school? Hahahahahahaha! The last one just shot out the (glass) door. Got windows in the place? He'll come in thru a window, maybe shooting it out. Put bars on the windows? There's "Murphy's Laws of Combat" that states, "Make it tough for the enemy to get in and... you can't get out!" That's like in a fire, or some terrorist poison gas attack, or whatever. And besides, do you want your school to look like a prison? Yeah, how about some 20 ft. high chain link with razor wire on top, hmmmm???? Pretty... not... Then you get to consider the school shooter that makes his way to the office, where the ID tracker is, and looks up EXACTLY where his ex-girlfriend is within the building, and goes there and shoots her, after shooting those that were using / protecting the access to the tracker. Whole thing is a can of worms and a huge overkill in my opinion.

Re:My View

[cheekyjohnson]

My nutty religion is better than your new nutty religion! You can claim to believe in the flying spaghetti monster for all I care. It's all the same nonsense. I don't see why people should be able to get around rules just because they state that it's against their religion.

Re:My View

[Murdoch5]

You right on that fact but at least it's step forwards.

Re:My View

[thegarbz]

However another interesting point is that RFID tags could introduce a new level of security in schools. If you have 200 kids and teachers all armed with RFID tags then you can simply lock the doors for the day and not let anyone else in, why is this a good idea?

Quick guys, he clearly works for the TSA! Let's get him.

Aside from the absurdity of your argument I don't get the same comfort from a location tracking security blanket as you do. How about you accept that statistically your child is far more likely to die from a myriad of other causes than a school shooting and just let them get on with their lives?

Re:My View

[Solandri]

If you have 200 kids and teachers all armed with RFID tags then you can simply lock the doors for the day and not let anyone else in, why is this a good idea? Simple school shooters, they can't get in the school so potentially you create a safer environment.

Contrary to the media hype, schools are already plenty safe from shooters. You're more likely to be struck by lightning than killed in a school shooting. If you pull your kids out of school because you think it's unsafe, you're actually increasing their chances of getting shot. More kids are shot outside of school than while at school.

Like airliner crashes and nuclear power accidents, you're letting the news hysteria over a rare large incident color your perception, and consequently mischaracterizing the magnitude of the problem. Yes you could do all you suggest to make schools safer. But you'll save more lives if you instead devote that money and brainpower towards tackling bigger safety problems. Like the approx 150x more high school drivers killed in car accidents each year than murdered while at school (by any means).

Re:My View

[McGruber]

If you have 200 kids and teachers all armed with RFID tags then you can simply lock the doors for the day and not let anyone else in, why is this a good idea? Simple school shooters, they can't get in the school so potentially you create a safer environment.

The Newtown shooter shot his way through a locked door.

If the school had required RFID tags, then the shooter could have used a RFID-scanner to find the children who hid in closets.

Re:My View

[IndustrialComplex]

Honestly, and sadly? I'm waiting for the school busses to get hit. Molotov to the front door, molotov to the back exit.

The sad fact of life is that there is nothing you can do to stop someone from killing (or horrifically injuring) large numbers of people once that person reaches the decision point to actually carry out such an event.

The only thing that will work with any real measure of success is somehow preventing that person from reaching the 'mass kill' decision point. Whether that is better mental health care, more intrusive observation (profiling based on flags,etc), removing the stigma/obstacles for people who want to seek counselling, I don't know, nor do I think I would like some possible solutions. But the important thing that people must not forget is that just because you may be 'crazy' doesn't mean you are stupid, and no amount of money will be able to create a solution which makes mass killings impossible, or even difficult.

Re:My View

[rally2xs]

Better mental health care that will work, in these instances, is the ability to come grab the guy that is clearly off his rocker and lock him up. They used to be able to do that, but under the emotionally-driven, touchy-feely Carter adminsitration, they conducted "deinstitutionalization", which resulted in homeless people on the streets 'cuz they can't or don't want to care for themselves, and these mass shootings - and probably other stuff that we're not so much noticing.

Re:My View

[infinitelink]

DO NOT QUOTE RELIGION

Given

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

It wouldn't be a bad way to go, except the courts routinely ignore the constitution (at all levels) in the name of statecraft. Administrators and leftist-trained lawyers and judges don't "jibe" with "dead white men" who "owned slaves"--apparently even the ones who bought, trained, educated, prepared, fretted for the well being of, and did all possible they could to ready, their slaves to be set free and be not just free, but capable of taking care of themselves in a brutally harsh world: Washington actually pulled this off, though when you point this out it changes to "permitted slavery in the Constitution": always another excuse to ignore the intent behind the law while claiming to uphold the law.

Then again, the intent of the public schools is not to serve the public: guys like Rockefeller wanted them to create "a national identity", and their curricula and textbooks are designed by committee precisely to prevent any one group's peeves slip through (evolution and sex-ed are exceptions, but as Diane Ravitch has written, not by much): not a lot of substantive material that can teach kids to probe deeply, consider carefully, and make them argue and learn to spot BS is present, therefore. The reasons behind our educational system and its design are poor bases for education, and throughout the 70's parents who figured it out also figured out they don't exist to serve the public interest but that of the teachers, unions, and politicians they support: the hordes are still trying to equate it, without actual facts in any given case, to "child abuse", not just teachers, but 'academics' (those raised by school) in general; in several states parents networked with cops to remove children from jurisdictions just before the state bore down upon them for kidnapping purposes when administrators and teachers accused parents of "child abuse" on no grounds except "those kids we know about aren't be educated by US."

Besides that, however, where does "privacy" fit-in with "'public' school"; how does it pertain to children over whom the schools exercise authority "in loco parentis"? Excepting rape and molestation, do parents have a requirement to offer "personal space"? I'll offer you an illustration: parents are liable (often criminally) for childrens' actions, and a lawyer I know was consulted by a client with a "rebellious teen" who would walk-out every night like she has rights equivalent to an adult: "you're rich, so build a padded room and straight-jacket her", was the lawyer's reply. "Isn't that child abuse!!!?" "Well social services might try to claim so, and police may show-up unlawfully demanding you surrender her and any weapons, but that's why you hired me" (he's an uber-competent friggin' lawyer) "and I'll be waiting with heavier weaponry than they have, letting them know that unlawful entry and forcible kidnapping gives us grounds to shoot and protect your child".

That may sound "crazy" when all branches and administrative agencies come to an agreed conclusion that you have no right to defend yourself against police even when they aggressively break into your house (doesn't always apply when, like this lawyer, you know them, Senators, governors, perhaps heads of certain military departments...), but the long story made short is, the kid actually was "incarcerated" for a while, until she realized her predicament: obey dad or lose all privileges (note, not "freedom"). It's one of the few times I've heard regarding a case that the administrative and police state would normally flip its **** and override parental rights in the name of "rebellion...it's just a phase", but then most of the highly successf

Re:republicans love it

[Rockoon]

some corporate crony has to provide all those badges! woohoo another way to suck the tax payer dry!

This representative is a Republican, but lets not let facts get in the way of ignorant demagoguery.

So ...

[twistofsin]

How many of you folks that think this is a big deal have turned down a job because they had to wear a badge on company property?

Re:So ...

[tompaulco]

I have had a job where you had to have such a badge, but then when I left it at home occasionally and then eventually lost it I still didn't have any trouble getting in. Luckily, as an employee I have the option of quitting and going to another company that doesn't require me to wear a badge. I currently don't have to wear a badge where I work.

Re:So ...

[Mitreya]

How many of you folks that think this is a big deal have turned down a job because they had to wear a badge on company property?

How many job will track your movement using that badge (instead of using it to buzz into secure doors)?

Even if this isn't part of the mandate now, having the student bathrooms monitored by RFID tracker is a no-brainer -- any students who spends more than X minutes in the bathroom is possibly smoking (or is sick). Feature creep will come and out of most noble (official) intentions.

Re:So ...

[Dr Damage I]

1. 1. My employer pays me to carry their RFID around.
2. 2. I can refuse to work for my employer if I don't like carrying their RFID around.
3. 3. If someone tells me I must work for an employer who requires me to carry an RFID around, I'm going to start working on the following list of boxes

1. soap
2. ballot
3. jury
4. ammo

already dehumanizing enough

[bcrowell]

Hallelujah!

(a) High school is already enough of a dehumanizing experience.

(b) I have two teenage kids. Their generation is growing up thinking that it's some kind of crime to walk home from school and kick pinecones instead of getting driven straight to soccer practice and then SAT prep.

(c) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

burying the lead

[slashmydots]

I think they're forgetting the first fact, which is this is so falsifiable, it's comical. One badge on your shirt, the other in your pocket. Tada, you and your friend attended class. It's idiotic and a complete joke of a system.

Okay, you can all go back to ethics and morals now, lol.

By the way, the political bill-namers could have a field day with this one! Anti-children as livestock bill. Anti-child tracking bill. Kid-tagging bill. Pretty much any title sounds bad, let alone if they try to do it on purpose.

Re:burying the lead

[tyger_purr]

They are typically used in high schools where it is rare that any two students have all the same classes at all the same times.

Re:burying the lead

[PlusFiveTroll]

If you want to get caught, you'd let one other student carry it all day. Be pretty easy to correlate which student had it as not only would the class room detectors see it, but other detectors around the school. If you switch it off between students over the day it would make it much more difficult.

Let us kill two birds with one stone

[McDrewbie]

RFID all guns and/or bullets and let people have guns in school. Voila I am a genius

But what about the safety aspects?

[tompaulco]

Won't somebody PLEASE think of the children? Why, the RFID system will be able to detect when unauthorized people are on school grounds. All we have to do is get the unauthorized people to wear a badge that has been programmed to say that they are unauthorized.

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Re:What have we become.....

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot has never been about personal freedom. It is a technophile news aggregator. RFID tags on children automate away the problem of attendance gathering. Technology applied to solve a problem, thus the support.

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How Far

[rally2xs]

are these school officials going to be allowed to go in trying to control every movement and thought that a student might possibly have or make? And how much money are the taxpayers going to have to provide in order to pay for this draconian, futuristic BS?

We didn't have this nonsense when I went to school and nobody died. Yeah, some guys got away with smoking in the boys room. BFD. This is spending money just to be spending money, I think. Its a "just say no" situation.

actually it does.

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually it does.

If some asshole is going to hold me accountable for the location of their brat, then I've going to stick an RFID on the brat. And those assholes hold me accountable for their brat until that brat enters the front door of their house.

So fuck them and their brat, they brought this on themselves.

It's a waste of money, privacy is a non-issue

[Zymophideth]

I can't believe anyone is talking about privacy, there isn't suppose to be privacy in school. You have attendance at every class and you have to sign out to even go to the bathroom. It's just a bad idea because it won't accomplish anything and the system will be gamed, more security theater to line the pockets of some company. Legislation is overkill but parents of school districts proposing this should definitely fight it, for sane reasons though.

Re:republicans love it

[Dr Damage I]

what, corporations only own the Republicans?

The Mark of the Beast

[sketchbag]

if being assigned a number used to track you in school is the mark of the beast, the first computerized attendance databases were the problem. your teacher calls your name, marks your attendance down. the school robo-call computer reads the attendance data (or someone enters it in), assigns it to your name in the database (which already has an ID number). the rfid just automagically does attendance. its no different. and i'm sure you could get a bag or box cover that would inhibit the rfid from being accessed outside of school.

Prison?

[edrawr]

Does anyone know if prisons use RFID technology to track prisoners? I feel like that might be a better use than tracking students. How about parolees? High tech house arrest, could force checking in at home/PO office/rehab electronically... Of course, some kind of implanted or second layer of verification would be needed for this, but maybe its the way of the future.

Re:When they do this in Saudi Arabia, it's a scand

[EmagGeek]

Tagging women is "oppressing the gender," which doesn't fit the liberal agenda.

Tagging children is "won't someone think of the chirren," or "enslavement for your own good," or "getting you used to state-as-parent," which does fit the liberal agenda.

Re:What have we become.....

[EmagGeek]

Do you believe you have the right to tag your own child if you so desire?

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Re:What have we become.....

[thoth]

let's see how well you can track your own internal organs once I am done with you. You people are sick.

Title: What have we become...
Post: excerpt, see above

It seems like Slashdot has been overrun by violent libertarian nutjobs, like yourself.

Re:What have we become.....

[EmagGeek]

" It is a technophile news aggregator. "

ROFLMAO...

Re:What have we become.....

[Xylantiel]

School should never be about attendance, but about learning. The pupils/students need to learn stuff and there needs to be some test or oral exam to certify their progress.

Um. That's what happens now -- you can homeschool, which just has various curriculum and testing requirements. But those requirements have to be implemented in some way. If nobody is managing your homeschooling, you are required to at least *be* somewhere that will manage your schooling. You simply have this mistaken belief that testing for competency is "easy" and would work fine. We have trouble even doing this properly in schools.

And what's with this "schools are paid by the class hour" crap. That kind of metric is commonly used for discussing school budgets, but it is by no means uniform enough to be even a useful standard let alone some kind of implied universal requirement.

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The irony is delicious

[Jawnn]

Texas, where teaching lies to children is a matter of state school board policy, is worried about those same children being chipped, ok... badged. It's a step in the right direction, I guess, but I do wish that it was for the right reasons, instead of some ignorant, red-neck paranoia.

It's the Texas Lege, folks

[whitroth]

Quotes from the late, wonderful Molly Ivins:
"The Texas Lege is God's gift to columnists"
"The Lege is in session - our villages are missing their idiots"

Besides, doesn' t he know that the Mark of the Beast (tm) is the barcode that they laser tatoo on your forehead?

              mark

Re:And demanded she give up free speech.

[AK Marc]

Most of the money spend on schools isn't spent on education. RFID was designed to lower cost, not increase it. Adding in these regulations the legislator is pushing for will not lower costs.

The lying

[mjh2901]

My problem is all the school administrators talking about how this improves campus safety. Even though it can only track tagged kids. The guy with high powered rifle walking onto the campus cant be sensed or tracked by the system. The other thing is these are active battery powered tags, which are very expensive. Why cant they just have standard cards with passive rfid chips, like a lot of us use for mass transit. Then instead of a tracking system switch all the doors in the school to remain locked at all times and only unlock for an ID swipe. With the kids badges opening doors they need to get into (main doors, bathrooms, even classrooms for their specific classes) and Staff cards open most doors. Then the guy with a gun comes to the campus and can't get in the door to start with (unless they shoot out the lock but that starts police response) The campus is more safe because most doors are closed and locked by default making it harder to go from room to room. I think these things are a privacy night mare. Most kids will keep them in purses or wallets, if I worked in retail the first thing I do is place readers by the doors and checkout registers that ping the cards since I can read them in someones purse or pocket. I only get a number but I will know how often that number enters the store, when and what they spend money on. If they use a credit card at checkout I now know the name of the person and can attach it to the ID number. There are no laws preventing me from doing this. If the tags where passive this would be almost impossible.

Re:Palm readers or finger printing at every door i

[PlusFiveTroll]

I don't have any issue with non-rfid cards, fingerprint* scanners, or such. They are not 'long range' (comparatively), you have to have directly touch some device there there is no 'leakage' other then finger prints on what you touch. The RFID being used in these schools is battery powered and has a range big enough to be detected and used by people you wouldn't expect.

*fingerprint records should be deleted once student graduates or leaves district.