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PayPal Preparing To Address Frozen Funds Policy
First time accepted submitter skywire writes "After years of forcing innocent customers to navigate a Kafkaesque process to unfreeze their funds, PayPal has announced that they are preparing major changes to alleviate the pain. From the article: 'The company routinely freezes funds for 21 days if it thinks there's a fraud risk, and its terms give it the right to extend the freeze for up to 180 days. To get access to their money, users are often asked to provide the kind of documentation that a product seller would have, like several months' worth of sales records. But if you're running a fundraiser or selling tickets to an upcoming conference, you don't have that paperwork. Even for those with extensive paper trails, the appeals process can take months to resolve. The Web is filled with enraged blog posts, websites like paypalsucks.com, and a Tumblr called "Conferences Burned by PayPal."'"
>minor changes
After over ten years of destroying businesses and hurting people while hiding behind a blank gray wall of "policy", Paypal are kidding themselves if they think that they can ever recover the goodwill that they've burned.
PayPal is an old granny trying hard to change her skewed view of business, but ain't getting anywhere. So she goes, "well, maybe the people who talk funny aren't out to steal money", but no. That kind of thinking won't change as it's too far ingrained. Are there people conducting funny business on PayPal? Of course! But when customer service is near non-existent and fundraisers can be a complete success or an abject failure well under the time it takes for them to turn their head either way, why would anyone use them for anything critical again?
I don't know if Google is a better alternative, but I can't imagine it's a surprise it's taking off as much as it is.
If computers were people, I'd be a misanthrope.
The phrase "too little, too late" comes to mind, though it's not nearly emphatic enough.
Fuck Paypal, I hope they go bankrupt (fiscally, they already have morally covered).
Ever. Trust is entropy. You can't go back.
Now, when they screw you over, at least you get a reach-around.
Maybe they're feeling the heat of competition from square and feel the need to do something to stop the exodus.
Our little business finds square a lot easier to deal with.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
It's pretty mind-boggling that nobody has come along and eaten Paypal's lunch yet. For all the internet-era services (most?) that based their business model on merely having the most active accounts and got burned, there are a couple for which that strategy seems to be a winner. Facebook is another one. There's no reason to use either of these services other than the fact that everyone else does - and in fact, there are lots of reasons not to (i.e. the services themselves are ass, and are run in a way that's at times abusive to their userbase).
And yet, despite the fact that there's nothing preventing competitors from springing up (unlike, say, Ticketmaster - which actively uses payola to monopolize the market) - and despite the fact that some with very deep pockets (Google) have tried - Paypal & Facebook still dominate.
Maybe it's luck? At some point someone will set up a competing service that just happens to ensnare the particular, unmarked, and unrelated 5% group of "tastemakers" who are sufficient to catalyze a shift away to a new service?
since Paypal is caving in to pressure from the AA's to not do business with companies/people/websites the AA's don't like, it looks like Paypal is trying to get back the business of the other people they have screwed over.
My guess is nothing is probably going to change, but a Press Release saying so looks good.
Be seeing you...
They're (Paypal) probably noticing the flood of payment alternatives. Stripe et al. come to mind...
They'll submit to being regulated like a bank. I used to work for Western Union, their money tranfers are subject to banking regulations, but PayPal isn't, for doing essentially the same thing.
You already burned us once, PayPal.
You will not be given another opportunity.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Until recently, I was on the board of directors for a local homeless shelter here in town. RIght now, we're in the middle of planning a major fundraiser. When it was suggested that we get a paypal account so that people could purchase tickets on-line, I went ballistic - I've heard way too many horror stories over the years. I'm not sure others on the fundraising committee quite believed everything I said, but my reaction was so strong it spooked them, and they backed off the idea completly. Paypal's changes will have to be effective, and in place for a very long, long time before they even have a *chance* of having people like me deal with them. That's a very large part of the market they've never had, and quite possibly never will.
PayPal once froze my account. I didn't realize how much they take those comments seriously and several years ago I sent some money to my wife with PayPal and put "For Sexual Favors" in the memo box, just kidding around, the way people would do on checks back in the day. Well, apparently PayPal thought I was actually paying for sex with PayPal and froze the funds. After I called them and explained the situation though, they quickly released the funds.
Yep, don't care. They lost me 2 years ago and short of their entire executive team kissing my bare ass on national TV, there's no way in hell I'm ever going back. Doing business with them was exactly like being raped.
Deja Moo: The distinct feeling that you've heard this bull before.
Paypal does not get much news coverage in Germany, it is just not as useful since the bank transfer system is pretty fine. But a while ago they managed to get onto the news when they tried to force a company to stop selling Cuban cigars. The company decided to stop offering paypal transfers instead of stopping to sell the cigars.
But really, how is that their bussiness? And why is that stupid Cuba embargo still in place? Some people said that this embargo has always been about turning Cuba into a colony.
The main problem, as with banks, the governmental have them scared of accidently money laundering, they can go to prison for quite a time if they are caught.
Look at Standard Chartered bank they only escaped prison by giving the US a lot (billions) of dollars
I am involved with organizing a sporting event. This last year was our seventh running of the event. In previous years, the sanctioning body would collect the entry fee and send the events their portion. Because of some issues with the sanctioning body (not really set-up for credit card payment and slow payment to events), the system was switched to where events collected the entry fee.
We decided to go with PayPal for most of the normal reasons folks go with PayPal. I had the PayPal-based payment system up on the event web site in a couple of hours. The first month of getting entry fee payments went fine and we could transfer the funds into the event's bank accounts (to cover pre-event costs like venue deposits and insurance).
The trouble started at the end of the early entry period for the event (when entry fees increased). To avoid the increase in entry fees, almost everyone entered in the event who had not already done so, paid their entry fee on the same day. This triggered PayPal's fraud system and the event's PayPal account was locked. Although we had successfully run the event for the six prior years (with outside media coverage to prove it) and our paperwork was in order, PayPal decided that they would not give us access to the funds until after the event had run, "just in case the event was cancelled and the entry fees needed to be refunded".
PayPal's actions were almost a self-fulfilling prophesy. Without access to the funds to cover pre-event costs, the event was almost cancelled. Luckily, between the entry fees collected before the PayPal account was locked, the entry fees that we collected directly after the account was locked and understanding vendors, we were able to cover the pre-event costs and the event was held.
After successfully running the event, we contacted PayPal to get the account unlocked. At first, they wanted to make us wait six weeks. However, we pressed the point that we had bills that had to be paid and needed access to the funds ASAP. After an hour on the phone, they unlocked the funds and gave us access to the funds.
Compared to some people that I have spoken with, we got off easy.
I don't care what PayPal's new policy is. We are not putting our event at risk again by accepting payment via PayPal.
Nananana we have your money and you are shit out of luck. fuck you.
So they're putting that in writing after its been used in practice for a decade now?
Well that's mighty nice of them.
I still wonder whos dick paypal sucked so hard to not be classed as a bank or credit card by now... That must have been one awesome blowjob.
PayPal tried this on me. I found the solution was to be extremely nasty and aggressive towards them. I gave them a lot of bad PR over the issue. They backed down and apologized. Wonder of wonders. PayPal is a very arrogant company but they really hate bad PR.
Indeed. With CC merchant accounts they don't automatically freeze an account full of funds based on automated heuristics. It's possible they do it rarely, but working closely with thousands of businesses, and having my own merchant accounts, I've never heard of it happening. I've had my Paypal account frozen before and I know at least a dozen other people who have.
The chargeback process is still slanted toward the buyer, but the buyer has to fill out and mail or fax paperwork, not just click a button on a web page. That reduces BS chargebacks. More importantly, that chargeback affects only the one transaction; they don't freeze thousands of dollars of unrelated funds. CC processors only freeze the account after MANY complaints from buyers. Partly, that's because they do the anti-fraud work upfront, when you apply to open the account. That takes a couple of weeks.
I believe that the average Joe can now accept credit payments using 2CO https://www.2checkout.com/
We'll never make it.......oh! we made it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWf3iJjqYCM&list=FL7kKrE4eTs17mQl7eyvJIOg
What better word would you use for cases where people follow rather than thinking for themselves, like a sheep circle or an ant mill?
For commercial seller Amazon seems to be the vastly superior service.
This is true for commercial sellers. But for sellers who don't pay $40 per month for a store, Amazon hits them with a $1 per item commission in addition to the final value fee. And items without a UPC/EAN or ISBN can't be sold at all.
When I saw what they did to Wikileaks I closed my account.
Honestly, I've given up on Paypal. Back in 2009, I've had my account frozen due to using many credit cards. Since I didn't have a job, I (thought I) couldn't get an actual credit card, and used a service in my country that generates temporary credit card numbers, valid for a month and with a set credit limit*. Well, Paypal didn't like that I used more than (IIRC) 15 credit cards in X time, so they blocked my account. I've since learned that Paypal e-mail support is where messages go to die, and, through site revisions, has become almost impossible to find. So, to resolve my problem, I had to call an Irish number, where this lady basically told me "No credit card, no dice". So then silly me goes and gets an actual credit card and calls again. "Looks good. It should be OK, now" - someone else says. It isn't. The next call: "OK, reset the password from your main computer". a) My main computer was a laptop which died in the middle of this process, and I've told them this, and b) What's the point of being on the web if you're requiring people to do something from a set computer? I've reset the password and the account is still blocked, so I've given up. Luckily, I only lost a little money in this process, but I've been finding that living without PayPal is easier than I thought.
* For the curious, https://www.mbnet.pt/
Only an idiot would use Paypal.
Elon Musk is a piece of subhuman waste who is a parasite on
decent people. Yes, he sold Paypal, but he also created it.
What the fuck is it going to take before you bottom-feeders
wake up and recognize when someone has a dick up your ass ?
Recently i sold a rather expensive rc helicopter because i needed the money on ebay . After selling it for around 400 dollars i went ahead and shipped it after getting message that the payment was received. I goto get my cash from an atm to pay a much needed bill and it says insufficient funds for 200 dollars. I call them and they say that because i have not sold 15 items on ebay that they will hold the money until the buyer leaves good feedback or 90 days has passed and i show proof of delivery. "To protect the buyer" so i begged the guy to give me good feed back right away and he did and it still took them a week after the feedback. I called and they told me that even though he left good feedback i cant have the funds until a minimum of 15is days has gone by.
I honestly think they are illegally holding money for taxes and until we stop using them it wont change. Ebay lost my business and so has paypal.
You are a fucking moron if you're doing business with paypal.
I will still make purchases via paypal, but only when no other alternative is available. But I only use a credit card with zero liability, and I'm not giving those fuckers my bank account number or my debit card number.
And for people who say: "I don't have a credit card" etc...
I say: "Get a skill and get a fucking job."
There are people who still use PayPal? Merchants or sites that encourage it? I can't recall the last time I came within spitting distance of PayPal for anything.
Then again, it's been several years since I went near e-Bay either.....
Three Squirrels
Screwing legitimate users on regular basis is not a good way of doing business. eBay/PayPal.
I transferred a good bit of money to my wife in Paris in 2007. It had worked twice previously. On the third time, Paypal "froze" the funds, IE took them out of our joint account in the USA, but not putting them into our account in France. Several weeks went by, I was calling constantly. One particular guy taking my calls will live in my memory forever. I learned to just say "escalate" "escalate" "escalate", as we reached a point when my wife in France's internet account would be cut off for non-payment. We had to keep faxing documents all showing both our names on both the accounts. It was an absolute horror show. I don't understand why there is not a class action suit against them for the interest Paypal earned from all of the people like me who had all of their money in Paypal limbo. I'm way too busy to worry about this now, but if I had time to, I'd hate their guts.
Gently reply
Once I used to leave cash for my purchases in my paypal account and since I got 0% interest I presume Paypal made quite for themselves. Never mind: I got fast access to my cash for purchase, but the news about accounts being frozen spooked me. Not just the news, but a family member had a fake paypal transaction on his credit card and they gave him a really hard time. After that, I keep nothing in my Paypal account and pay by "instant bank transfer" which PayPal offers. If they didn't, I wouldn't use their service at all.
Indeed. With CC merchant accounts they don't automatically freeze an account full of funds based on automated heuristics. It's possible they do it rarely, but working closely with thousands of businesses, and having my own merchant accounts, I've never heard of it happening. I've had my Paypal account frozen before and I know at least a dozen other people who have.
You are obviously a merchant, not buyer, but buyer accounts are frozen quite often by automated heuristics. An international traveler would be silly to rely on a single credit card for a trip without at least looking up the local toll-free number for when the "unusual" activity locks their card (the consumer equivalent of freezing an account).
The chargeback process is still slanted toward the buyer, but the buyer has to fill out and mail or fax paperwork, not just click a button on a web page.
It's how it should be. I had an argument with a seller on eBay once. He said he sent it. I never got it. I did a chargeback. He complained that I didn't buy insurance.
Legally, the transaction is not completed until the item is delivered. The item was never delivered. I was due my money back. My options are to go to court and prove I never got it, or just do a chargeback. Chargeback done. Insurance protects me, delivery receipt protects him. I don't buy insurance. If you can't pack it right, you get a chargeback. If you don't ship it, you get a chargeback. And no, I don't pay your insurance for you (like mortgage insurance, where it's default insurance you pay that covers the bank, not you). If you don't want to buy insurance to cover yourself, then you deserve the chargeback. Most eBay sellers take that into account. $0.01 items with $15 delivery weren't uncommon for a while, but I heard eBay was cracking down on it, but I haven't been back in a while to see.
Learn to love Alaska
None of this would be a problem if PayPal had serious competition. There should have been half a dozen companies doing exactly what PayPal was doing which were started in the past five years.
Recently, the local bank where we keep our family's and our business accounts has started offering a QuickPay service which apparently hooks into Chase Bank and allows for sending and receiving money to and from email accounts. It's still in its infancy compared to PayPal, but I've been using it more and more because of how much I loathe PayPal. It works just as well and hopefully it will become more widely used. I'd switch away from PayPal in a minute if there were good alternatives (I'm in the US).
You are welcome on my lawn.
Now about time for someone to actually challenge eBay. eBid, uBid etc. never gain steam. We need an auction site that takes all sorts of payment methods, including enabling established sellers to accept non-recoursable payment methods like Western Union, Bitcoins etc. to increase liquidity.
New Economic Perspectives
Well, when there is the weight of the government squeaking about, both Mastercard/Mastercharge and Visa/Bankamericard will do something "without even being asked": they cut off all transaction processing for wikileaks.
.
This was combined with a response from the financial industry world-wide which was the equivalent of a global financial blockade. How do you like them apples?
eBay only cracked down on high delivery charges when shipping and handling were exempt from their final value fees. Now that final value fees are charged on the total payment price including all attendant s&h charges, they don't enforce their excessive s&h policy anymore. It was only ever put into place to protect eBay's bottom line, not to protect buyers.
Given their security doesn't reassure me, I was done with them once they started requiring my SSN. I was nervous enough they had my bank info, but SSN? Given I've used them for non-essential purchases (games, hobby related items, etc), I said, no thanks. I tried to contact them to get a legit explanation about why they claim to need my SSN, especially since I'm ONLY a buyer, never a seller, so tax issues are not relevant.
'The unexamined life is not worth living' - Socrates
Let's face it, if Paypal was subject to regular bank regulations, the kind that make it pretty hard for them to pull off stunts like this, they would be a much better service.
This is an example of an industry that just needs some good old fashioned regulation.
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article38581.html
The “experts” in the corporate media ridicule the idea of the coin (government printing its own debt free money) and say that nothing like this has ever been done before. That would not be accurate either.
In fact during our colonial days, our government did fund its operations by issuing colonial scrip. Our colonies were flourishing at this time and because the government was printing its own money, there was no need for income taxes. (By the way, it is not a coincidence that the Federal Income tax was instituted just before the Federal Reserve Act because the bankers know that the government would need the revenue to pay for the interest on its money supply and debt.) The colonial governments would issue this colonial scrip to pay their debts. There were some colonies that printed too many and suffered inflation, but most were judicious in their creation. Once the British bankers became aware of this colonial prosperity and how their debt based money system was being bypassed, they petitioned King George to forbid the colonies to issue their own currency. Since the bankers controlled the monarchy then, much as they control our government today, their wishes were granted. This quickly resulted in not enough circulating money to facilitate economic activity and the colonies quickly entered into a deep depression. It was this economic depression that was the driving force for the American Revolution.
Another time that the U.S. government printed its own money was during the civil war. The bankers tried to extort interest rates from Lincoln of 24% to 36% to finance the war.
“I have two great enemies, the Southern Army in front of me and the bankers in the rear. Of the two, the one at my rear is my greatest foe.”
Abraham Lincoln
Instead of acquiescing to the bankers, Lincoln courageously started printing Greenbacks to finance the war saving the nation huge future interest payments. In fact the Greenbacks were so popular with the people that a political party formed called the Greenback Party. In the end, we all know what happened to Lincoln.
You thieving scumbags!
I don't recall having to use Paypal when I sold my last 5 things from around the house on Amazon.
Experienced sellers are leaving eBay in droves. We're tired of paying 12%-15% total to sell our items when we can do it on Amazon for less than 1/2 that commission and reach just as large an audience. eBay needs to seriously change the way it does business because Amazon is going to drive them into irrelevance if they don't clean up their act. It's really a shame because they used to be a market leader and innovator, nowadays the only way they innovate is how to charge you more money.
The problem with Paypal is that they are heavily linked into ebay, certainly in France and the UK where Paypal has to be accepted and is very hard to avoid using.
I've looked hard at ways to use ebay without Paypal but can see no way even for someone such as myself who would sacrifice 50% less sales in order to use a competitor to Paypal. Ebay in turn is very dominant for goods in the UK, a first port of call for any cheap goods from HongKong or used goods especially.
A blog I run for the wealth
Have you looked at eBay/PayPal fees lately? Amazon compares quite well.
For the categories that my employer sells in, both Amazon and eBay plus PayPal charge a final value fee of about 15 percent. (Current Selling on Amazon subscribers can view the fee schedule.) Amazon also has a price parity policy, meaning a seller who also sells on his own web site can't raise its prices on Amazon to cover these fees unless the seller raises the prices on its own web site in parallel.
My sources are Overview of Category UPC Requirements (available to Selling on Amazon subscribers only) and Help: Adding UPCs and How to Obtain a Product Code (which I think are public).
I just checked, and it appears Amazon's requirement for a GTIN (UPC, EAN, ISBN) in order to get an ASIN has loosened since the last time I checked. Manufacturers of private-label products in certain categories who sell those products on Amazon as a Pro Merchant are now eligible for the Amazon Brand Registry, which provides Global Catalog Identifier (GCID) for their products, linked to the manufacturer's part number. Media items (such as books, music, and DVD) and a few other categories are not eligible for GCIDs, nor are individuals who sell fewer than 40 items per month (Pro seller subscription required). In some categories, such as consumer electronics, product bundles need their own GTINs. Did your "many many many products" refer to categories eligible for GCIDs?
When i stopped using paypal, i also had to stop using ebay.
It was hard, but thank god for craigslist!
Paypal issues a debit card, funds that can be drawn on just like your bank account. A lot of folks who want to stay off the major grid or have bad credit and who have less than 5K earnings a year find that having a debit card is important. My youngest daughter is a college student and when she needs money, I transfer money from my Paypal account to hers and she can draw that money via her debit card the instant I make the transfer. I think that if anyone else offered a competitive service without all the bloodsucking, they would probably do well. The debit card for many, is often worth the risk of Paypal losing their fucking minds and locking your money up for 180 days.
Windows assumes you are an idiot...Linux demands proof.
After all these years and all these warnings I can't believe paypal still has any customers.
Paypal take other peoples money and keep it, that always was their business model. Deal with them only if you want to lose your money. Deal with them only if you want them to empty all linked accounts too.
I pretty much agree with you that he used the wrong word but feel the need to point out rape isn't always a sexual crime.
From dictionary.com:
noun
1. the unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.
2. any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.
3. statutory rape.
4. an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside.
5. Archaic. the act of seizing and carrying off by force.
verb (used with object)
6. to force to have sexual intercourse.
7. to plunder (a place); despoil.
8. to seize, take, or carry off by force.
What paypal do is plunder, abuse, and seize, but not violently.
They can shove it up their arse. Fuck Paypal. That is all.
Founder & COO, Hayai India (hayai.in) / USA (hayaibroadband.com)